thank you for your post. You have given me hope that perhaps we will continue to evolve emotionally and mentally that we dont need bronze age gods to lead us down the path of distruction.
I am a parent and regarding my children, I treat religion the same way I treat drugs, sex and guns. They are all deadly and shouldn't be exposed to children. When my children ask me a question about the world I answer honestly. It would be wonderful if we just try for one generation to NOT listen to the BS of bronze age tribes and do good because it is the right thing to do!
awesome, bro. that is exactly how they will be seen. I feel happy I was able to remove from my head the veil of religion. and from what I can see many other people have done so as well
It's quite refreshing to hear someone like Hitchens speak so eloquently, while using common sense, logic and facts as the basis for his thoughts, when speaking about the absurdity (and danger) of religious thinking, and of organized religion itself. Kudos to CH !
@wHisperis001 Yes I added the modifier "largely" because I was able to recall a "city waif's home" on a map. So I am aware of at least one instance where a local government funded a home for orphans. However, it isn't fully honest to say that all secular orphanages were atheist orphanages, because, like today, the people who were advocating for social services were mostly religious leaders and lay activists. Best regards.
@08carnage08 I can't find a story by Asimov titled "I, Robot," so I cannot verify that it is the robot speaking from its own point of view. Wikipedia says a compilation of Asimov short stories was published under that title in 1950, but the title was the publisher's choice for the compilation and was never a story title. Usually, they title a compilation after the leading story. Hitchup tried to write a book, but he screwed up on the first word of the title.
@Atharkas Here you go, search UA-cam for this song-- World War II America (Battle Hymn of the Republic) It has all of the original words, and it was the most popular song for Union soldiers in the American Civil War. It was written in November 1861 in Bailey's Crossroads, Virginia. You just can't deny that slavery in America was ended by people who were religiouis believers, and empancipation is a good thing.
@SuperJav1988 Congratulations! : D I've been free for three years, glad to see the community is slowly but surely growing. We have a long way to go, lets get to work hehe.
@08carnage08 The use of the term "I, Robot" would normally lead the reader to believe that the story is written from a robot's point of view. Hitchens tried to write a book but screwed up on the first word in the title.
thanks for posting this...I think however that it would have been nice if you wouldn't have included your opinion of the debate in the title of the video...even though i agree with you
Of all the people on video I've seen debating him that man was the best at standing up to him, he mentions sources that he incinuates Hitchens borrows his arguments from. Fascinating sources if you are a Hitchens enthusiast like me.
"How am I "hypocritical" when I'm not talking about my religious beliefs" By refusing that it's written in them how to take care of them, how to beat them, how to acquire them. "Now, once more, please name something good that humans do that religions haven't done first." Again, abolishing slavery was not religious. Just because you deny that the civil war was a war among the countryman and not a religious one do not make it so. Religious affiliation of people do not make the event religious.
"We live in an odd solar system. The other planets are too hot or too cold to support live, and our own [planet] is in large part too hot or too cold to support life and the remainder lives on a climatic knife edge". What a miraculous, God-supporting statement! I'm using this verbatim from now on to support why I believe there is a loving God Christopher Hitchens' head is so far up his ass he can taste the mold growing on the top of his head. Let's all help him pull it out of there.
I thoroughly enjoy religious debate; being a believer it makes me question myself and at times strengthens my beliefs. Though I do not agree with Mr. Hitchens thoughts on life, I think he brings interesting thought provoking view points to the table. I think debating or even non-nonchalantly talking to someone like him about this topic would be fantastic, as he isn't one to quickly bring up the typical arrogance both sides tend to have about the opposing parties viewpoints.
Did anyone watch the entire debate? To me, Hitchens' adversary was by far one of the best until this point. He was eloquent, logical and rational. He started with a premise and built up from there and, as I recall, no concrete errors of thought and judgement. The only problem was he didn't say anything about God, only about religion and humanity. He did not bring anything new to his faith's camp but argues, quite well actually, the "Religion Poisons Everything" position.
@Feralus69 The phrase is one of the most important statements to understand modern American politics. Some decry the rise of the religioius right -- never before seen and such. Well, 50 years ago, what we call the right was the center. With the end of teacher-led prayer and with the federalizing of abortion rights, who we call the religious right were pushed from the center.
What's with the stupid noise in the background? Very distracting. Is there a version of this debate without it? Always great to listen to Hitchens,one of the most articulate men on the planet.
It's fascinating that while Dawkins and Hitchens are often spoken of in the same breath, their arguments take notably different approaches. Dawkins adopts largely scientific/logical reasoning while Hitchens spends more time highlighting the historical uses of religion and its place in the history of political thought. It is easy to overlook, for instance, the fact that religion really is the ultimate form of totalitarianism, in which your every action carries greater significance.
I'm an atheist and I celebrate Christmas purely because it's a fun thing to do. I also know many people who do the same. Claiming that we should not be able to do so is an arrogant one, since Christmas itself is derived from a pagan ritual surrounding Winter Solstice.
That's Olasky. He fully admitted when the debate began that he didn't stand a chance, and he didn't. He kept arguing for the "usefulness" of religion, unconvincingly of course. Yet another sad day to be a theist.
@sweetpeajunglebean Thanks for pointing that out. I try very hard to not make those kinds of distracting errors but the mind is quicker than the fingers.
"What part of ...do you not understand ..." I eat no gravel. That is my diet. Whenever anyone questions my diet, I will recite my one-liner, and then spew vitriol at all others whose diets differ from mine because mine is the only diet that makes sense. What part of that do you not understand?
Let us say (by analogy) . . . that Hitchens were instead claiming that hamburgers don't exist. He argues INTELLECTUALLY that hamburgers are a self-serving myth propogated by the beef industry . . . that people want hamburgers to exist because they are hungry . . . and so on. But . . . he doesn't go to Macdonalds, order at the counter, put what he's given in his mouth, chew, and swallow. It's all intellectual -- not empirical . . . and lacking in personal integrity.
Fascinating stuff. If you ever get past wiki-science you'll find that the observation & hypothesis thing-y is rather broad in scope and somewhat messier than the pedestrian outline-form you offer, as I discussed before. Testing isn't about "facts", but rather data collection and analysis. I love how Atheists lean on the word "facts" as if it holds some esteemed position amongst research scientists. It only proves their scientific illiteracy.
@Feralus69 The definitions of "jab" I found when Googling (to be fair) didn't include any rhetorical definitions in the first several options. But I accept your explanation that it was not meant to intone violence.
The best thing about Europe is its diversity. I've been all over Europe and I love Germany, Italy, and many other places. It's difficult to pick a favourite. I do like Norway, Finland and Sweden as they are beautiful places with a very high standard of living and ideologically ahead of the game.
@moonlightbateman We most certainly do NOT know. If you happen to know some source(s) that indicate otherwise, or perhaps you have made the discovery yourself, please provide them as i'm quite keen knowing. Thanks in advance. (nobel here i come!)
Not eating gravel is not a diet. Just as not playing chess is not a hobby. Just as being without belief is not a religion. Thank you for accidentally proving my point for me.
What could be more egotistical and self centred than believing that the entire universe was created specifically for you? Religious people seem to be scared of the fact that they are insignificant. Once you realise that, it's really quite liberating.
I was a miserable slave to religion growing up,..everything from having Very bad nerve problems (from living in fear that I wasn't good enough and was gonna burn in hell) ,..throwing away over 80 rock and metal cassette tapes that were surely evil:D and thinking of being a preacher,just so I could finally achieve this so called feeling of acceptance,...It wasn't till I was about 30 yrs old that the truth started to become clear.
I live in a Beautiful city called Bath where I go to university. I'm coming to America this year for a 6 month cancer research project in Chicago. Do you have facebook or some other form of communication? Lovely to talk to a sane American! I have never seen "Idiocracy"; I'll have a look at it at some point.
AskWhy - the difference of course is that the people who are enriching CH by buying his books are not coerced to buy them. Religion, on the other hand, requires the threat of eternal damnation to keep its minions in line.
I agree with many thing he is saying. The infancy stages of thinking were a way to deal with the anxiety of uncertainty. Many people are still using this kind of thinking to deal with anxiety and uncertainty. When you get to a more mature way of looking at the world you don't need magic and superstition. I am hopeful that one day the world will get to a point were faith in magic and superstition will be things of the past.
@greenrate A most interesting debate. I have talked to people who say they have never seen a miracle. However, it depends on where u look. I have have heard of many accounts of healings happening at prayer meetings supermarkets and on mission trips in Africa. You just have to know where to look. Keep watching!
"I don't think that god rewards us or punishes us for what we think, feel or believe." i can genuinely respect that. because many christians tend to ignore the fact that there are other religions in the world, past and present, that conflict with the belief in the abrahamic deity. the society in which one is birthed in practically dictates their religious binding. so now all the hindus who were born into it go to hell because of the, what is essentially, luck of the draw?
Oh I totally missed your point! The main video page doesn't do nested comments very well so I saw your comment in a vacuum -_-. Yeah Chris is all over the place seems to be a hard person to pin left or right on. Seems purely issue based.
@Feralus69 He never comes right out and says he's talking about his god, but when someone says things like "Dad is millionaire" or "Mom knows nuclear physics" then it is assumed he or she is referring to his or her own father and mother, respectively. Hitchens titled his book, "god is not Great," which means his god is not great. An atheist tried to write a book and screwed up the very first word of the title.
@Atharkas That's your right. America has a long and proud tradition of respecting freedom of religion and speech. England has a long and shameful tradition of persecuting people so badly that sail to Plymouth Rock. The Supreme Court decision that ended teacher-led prayer in public school was a case that involved the child of an atheist. In America, you're free to worship as you choose, and you're free to worship Hitchens if you choose.
@08carnage08 Yes, it is my interpretation based on common and valid rules of English grammar. A book's cover is supposed to covey its content. I'm making more a judgment about Hitchens than his book. He tried to write a book, but screwed up the first word of the title. And in the clip above, he can't get to the two minute mark before screwing up his logic either. A creation myth is not required of any religion.
“Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.”
― Napoleon
Nepoleon is misunderstood
The World is misunderstood
We are all misunderstood
Therefore
We are all Greatly Misunderstood
Who cares
I thought I’d seen all of his main recordings, this is awesomely succinct.
Thanks for the video and link!
Stays interesting.
"You're created sick and commanded to be well, the essence of the totalitarian principle".
Spot on Christopher.
what a great video, thanks for posting man, thanks
Great, thanks for the link bro
i cant believe he is able to speak all of this without any notes. Thats a good memory and accumen
thank you for your post. You have given me hope that perhaps we will continue to evolve emotionally and mentally that we dont need bronze age gods to lead us down the path of distruction.
HAHAHA, nice. I've enjoyed reading you're thread with romney27. That entire paragraph was very well crafted!!
I am a parent and regarding my children, I treat religion the same way I treat drugs, sex and guns.
They are all deadly and shouldn't be exposed to children. When my children ask me a question about the world I answer honestly.
It would be wonderful if we just try for one generation to NOT listen to the BS of bronze age tribes and do good because it is the right thing to do!
A calmly expressed and thoughtfully reasoned position which is worthy of consideration...
brilliant as always
nice too see there's atleast some believers who are intelligent and not closed minded.. peace , from an atheist.
awesome, bro. that is exactly how they will be seen. I feel happy I was able to remove from my head the veil of religion. and from what I can see many other people have done so as well
@iLike2Holdem I totally agree,its just wonderful to listen to his truthful eloquence.
It's quite refreshing to hear someone like Hitchens speak so eloquently, while using common sense, logic and facts as the basis for his thoughts, when speaking about the absurdity (and danger) of religious thinking, and of organized religion itself. Kudos to CH !
I've watched many Hitchens videos on utube, but i think this really is the best....at least so far
Thanks for the heads-up on Armstrong014!
I'll stop bothering with the guy unless he can come up with something sensible soon. =)
Damn it I had not noticed untill reading your comment :)
@bottomfeeder
I agree, but there is a link to the whole debate in the info, which is both without music and unedited.
great vid+++
Fairdos62,
true!
glad to see we agree on something.
Very well said.
great clip. btw, what are the techno spacey sounds going on underneath? lol
Hey jedi, i like the music =]
Hitchens book "god is not great" should be corriculum reading in all schools.
"...the most complete form of totalitarianism ever imagined."
fascinating...
Eternity is the state that lies outside of time. It is not endless time. It is other than time.
My error. I meant "heliports."
America's empire must fall as all empires do.
1 billion or so others on this planet think the same as we do... never forget that.
it was nice hearing hitchens talking about this stuff. its nice to know im not the only one who thinks like that
very accurate title
the music LOL
@wHisperis001 Yes I added the modifier "largely" because I was able to recall a "city waif's home" on a map. So I am aware of at least one instance where a local government funded a home for orphans. However, it isn't fully honest to say that all secular orphanages were atheist orphanages, because, like today, the people who were advocating for social services were mostly religious leaders and lay activists. Best regards.
@08carnage08 I can't find a story by Asimov titled "I, Robot," so I cannot verify that it is the robot speaking from its own point of view. Wikipedia says a compilation of Asimov short stories was published under that title in 1950, but the title was the publisher's choice for the compilation and was never a story title. Usually, they title a compilation after the leading story. Hitchup tried to write a book, but he screwed up on the first word of the title.
@Atharkas Here you go, search UA-cam for this song-- World War II America (Battle Hymn of the Republic) It has all of the original words, and it was the most popular song for Union soldiers in the American Civil War. It was written in November 1861 in Bailey's Crossroads, Virginia. You just can't deny that slavery in America was ended by people who were religiouis believers, and empancipation is a good thing.
@janywheredirector I laughed so hard on the inside while reading this brilliant analogy. Excellent humor.
Brilliant,just brilliant
Awesome video, but the music is REALLY irritating.
I’m guessing the background music was removed do to the complaints
@SuperJav1988
Congratulations! : D I've been free for three years, glad to see the community is slowly but surely growing. We have a long way to go, lets get to work hehe.
I do enjoy hearing Hitchens speak. I could do withouth the rather shabby music in the background, though...
Keep speaking the truth, Hitchens!
@08carnage08 The use of the term "I, Robot" would normally lead the reader to believe that the story is written from a robot's point of view. Hitchens tried to write a book but screwed up on the first word in the title.
thanks for posting this...I think however that it would have been nice if you wouldn't have included your opinion of the debate in the title of the video...even though i agree with you
Of all the people on video I've seen debating him that man was the best at standing up to him, he mentions sources that he incinuates Hitchens borrows his arguments from. Fascinating sources if you are a Hitchens enthusiast like me.
Can you post this again WO/ the music? Thanks
LOL at the weird background music
There are plenty of full debates with Theists and Hitchens on youtube. Simply look them up.
walterygor
"glad to see we agree on something."
Agreed :)
good post.
"How am I "hypocritical" when I'm not talking about my religious beliefs"
By refusing that it's written in them how to take care of them, how to beat them, how to acquire them.
"Now, once more, please name something good that humans do that religions haven't done first."
Again, abolishing slavery was not religious. Just because you deny that the civil war was a war among the countryman and not a religious one do not make it so. Religious affiliation of people do not make the event religious.
The difference is that believers say that God is outside space and time whereas Atheists don't make that claim about matter.
Spot on
"We live in an odd solar system. The other planets are too hot or too cold to support live, and our own [planet] is in large part too hot or too cold to support life and the remainder lives on a climatic knife edge". What a miraculous, God-supporting statement! I'm using this verbatim from now on to support why I believe there is a loving God
Christopher Hitchens' head is so far up his ass he can taste the mold growing on the top of his head. Let's all help him pull it out of there.
I thoroughly enjoy religious debate; being a believer it makes me question myself and at times strengthens my beliefs. Though I do not agree with Mr. Hitchens thoughts on life, I think he brings interesting thought provoking view points to the table.
I think debating or even non-nonchalantly talking to someone like him about this topic would be fantastic, as he isn't one to quickly bring up the typical arrogance both sides tend to have about the opposing parties viewpoints.
"What empirical data do you have for your "creator",...?"
Creation.
Did anyone watch the entire debate? To me, Hitchens' adversary was by far one of the best until this point. He was eloquent, logical and rational. He started with a premise and built up from there and, as I recall, no concrete errors of thought and judgement. The only problem was he didn't say anything about God, only about religion and humanity. He did not bring anything new to his faith's camp but argues, quite well actually, the "Religion Poisons Everything" position.
great video but backgroud music is unnecessary IMO
@Feralus69 The phrase is one of the most important statements to understand modern American politics. Some decry the rise of the religioius right -- never before seen and such. Well, 50 years ago, what we call the right was the center. With the end of teacher-led prayer and with the federalizing of abortion rights, who we call the religious right were pushed from the center.
What's with the stupid noise in the background?
Very distracting. Is there a version of this debate without it?
Always great to listen to Hitchens,one of the most articulate men on the planet.
It's fascinating that while Dawkins and Hitchens are often spoken of in the same breath, their arguments take notably different approaches.
Dawkins adopts largely scientific/logical reasoning while Hitchens spends more time highlighting the historical uses of religion and its place in the history of political thought.
It is easy to overlook, for instance, the fact that religion really is the ultimate form of totalitarianism, in which your every action carries greater significance.
Hitch is absolutely brilliant here . It was and is so simple , We don't need high academic arguments to counter stupid ideas .Do We now ?
interesting, good point.
I'm an atheist and I celebrate Christmas purely because it's a fun thing to do. I also know many people who do the same. Claiming that we should not be able to do so is an arrogant one, since Christmas itself is derived from a pagan ritual surrounding Winter Solstice.
That's Olasky. He fully admitted when the debate began that he didn't stand a chance, and he didn't. He kept arguing for the "usefulness" of religion, unconvincingly of course. Yet another sad day to be a theist.
@sweetpeajunglebean
Thanks for pointing that out. I try very hard to not make those kinds of distracting errors but the mind is quicker than the fingers.
"What part of ...do you not understand ..."
I eat no gravel. That is my diet. Whenever anyone questions my diet, I will recite my one-liner, and then spew vitriol at all others whose diets differ from mine because mine is the only diet that makes sense.
What part of that do you not understand?
I know what you mean, when he bad mouths Ayn Rand and gives support to Bush, that really hurts because he's so good on other issues.
Let us say (by analogy) . . . that Hitchens were instead claiming that hamburgers don't exist.
He argues INTELLECTUALLY that hamburgers are a self-serving myth propogated by the beef industry . . . that people want hamburgers to exist because they are hungry . . . and so on.
But . . . he doesn't go to Macdonalds, order at the counter, put what he's given in his mouth, chew, and swallow.
It's all intellectual -- not empirical . . . and lacking in personal integrity.
Fascinating stuff.
If you ever get past wiki-science you'll find that the observation & hypothesis thing-y is rather broad in scope and somewhat messier than the pedestrian outline-form you offer, as I discussed before.
Testing isn't about "facts", but rather data collection and analysis. I love how Atheists lean on the word "facts" as if it holds some esteemed position amongst research scientists. It only proves their scientific illiteracy.
@Feralus69 The definitions of "jab" I found when Googling (to be fair) didn't include any rhetorical definitions in the first several options. But I accept your explanation that it was not meant to intone violence.
The best thing about Europe is its diversity. I've been all over Europe and I love Germany, Italy, and many other places. It's difficult to pick a favourite. I do like Norway, Finland and Sweden as they are beautiful places with a very high standard of living and ideologically ahead of the game.
Absolute genius.
sup with the background music??
Typical 2007 youtube video title. What a bad time it was.
I was refering to the establishment of christianity as the official religion by the Roman's, not it's ultimate origin.
@moonlightbateman We most certainly do NOT know. If you happen to know some source(s) that indicate otherwise, or perhaps you have made the discovery yourself, please provide them as i'm quite keen knowing.
Thanks in advance.
(nobel here i come!)
Not eating gravel is not a diet. Just as not playing chess is not a hobby. Just as being without belief is not a religion. Thank you for accidentally proving my point for me.
What could be more egotistical and self centred than believing that the entire universe was created specifically for you?
Religious people seem to be scared of the fact that they are insignificant. Once you realise that, it's really quite liberating.
ever notice how cigaret or heroine addicts get really annoyed, even violent when someone points out their addictions?
I was a miserable slave to religion growing up,..everything from having Very bad nerve problems (from living in fear that I wasn't good enough and was gonna burn in hell) ,..throwing away over 80 rock and metal cassette tapes that were surely evil:D and thinking of being a preacher,just so I could finally achieve this so called feeling of acceptance,...It wasn't till I was about 30 yrs old that the truth started to become clear.
Tell it to the parole board.
@LingamSpit : Is "brainstem" a compound word?
I live in a Beautiful city called Bath where I go to university. I'm coming to America this year for a 6 month cancer research project in Chicago. Do you have facebook or some other form of communication? Lovely to talk to a sane American! I have never seen "Idiocracy"; I'll have a look at it at some point.
There is nothing good about religion that can't be found without religion.
There is much evil in the world that can ONLY exist with religion.
"Einstein admitted it was his greatest blunder" next!
AskWhy - the difference of course is that the people who are enriching CH by buying his books are not coerced to buy them. Religion, on the other hand, requires the threat of eternal damnation to keep its minions in line.
I agree with many thing he is saying. The infancy stages of thinking were a way to deal with the anxiety of uncertainty. Many people are still using this kind of thinking to deal with anxiety and uncertainty. When you get to a more mature way of looking at the world you don't need magic and superstition. I am hopeful that one day the world will get to a point were faith in magic and superstition will be things of the past.
"He's wrong." Quite a convincing argument you make...
Hitchens is one of the most brilliant minds of our time.
@greenrate A most interesting debate. I have talked to people who say they have never seen a miracle. However, it depends on where u look. I have have heard of many accounts of healings happening at prayer meetings supermarkets and on mission trips in Africa. You just have to know where to look. Keep watching!
"I don't think that god rewards us or punishes us for what we think, feel or believe."
i can genuinely respect that. because many christians tend to ignore the fact that there are other religions in the world, past and present, that conflict with the belief in the abrahamic deity.
the society in which one is birthed in practically dictates their religious binding. so now all the hindus who were born into it go to hell because of the, what is essentially, luck of the draw?
"Wow, this guy is really lost and taking everyone that believes him to hell"
....whoooosh! Right over your head.
Oh I totally missed your point! The main video page doesn't do nested comments very well so I saw your comment in a vacuum -_-. Yeah Chris is all over the place seems to be a hard person to pin left or right on. Seems purely issue based.
I am so happy to see that not everyone falls for this christian, muslim bs.
and that the number of people realizing this is increasing.
@Atharkas Just name an atheist tribe that survived and prospered. I'll work some on that anger thing.
@Feralus69 He never comes right out and says he's talking about his god, but when someone says things like "Dad is millionaire" or "Mom knows nuclear physics" then it is assumed he or she is referring to his or her own father and mother, respectively. Hitchens titled his book, "god is not Great," which means his god is not great. An atheist tried to write a book and screwed up the very first word of the title.
@Atharkas That's your right. America has a long and proud tradition of respecting freedom of religion and speech. England has a long and shameful tradition of persecuting people so badly that sail to Plymouth Rock. The Supreme Court decision that ended teacher-led prayer in public school was a case that involved the child of an atheist. In America, you're free to worship as you choose, and you're free to worship Hitchens if you choose.
@08carnage08 Yes, it is my interpretation based on common and valid rules of English grammar. A book's cover is supposed to covey its content. I'm making more a judgment about Hitchens than his book. He tried to write a book, but screwed up the first word of the title. And in the clip above, he can't get to the two minute mark before screwing up his logic either. A creation myth is not required of any religion.
Why the hell would you put music behind this?