Sandbox doesn't have to be openworld pvp, I feel like many here are conflating the two due to recent titles favoring pvp. There's no reason a PVE focused MMO can't be a sandbox
I loved WURM online back in the day and only played on PvE servers. Focus on traiding/building and get your neighbour together when a scary monster spawn close to you. I also worked as a road builder to make it easier for ppl to get around the map, sure i got a few coins for making the road but it was more for the community.
PvP is further towards sanbox on the scale because PvE always includes some curation in designing the Environment part. However, I agree with you that PvE focused games can fall into the sandbox category.
Tell me, for whom do you fight? How very glib, and do you believe in Eorzea? Eorzea's is forged on falsehoods. It's cities are built on deceit and it's faith is an instrument of deception. It is naught but a cobweb of lies - to believe in Eorzea is to believe in nothing. In Eorzea, the beast tribes often summon Gods to fight in their stead. Though your comrades only rarely respond in kind - which is strange is it not? Are the twelve otherwise "engaged"? I was given to understand they were your protectors. If you truly believe them your guardians, why do not repeat the trick that served you in carteneau and call them down? They will answer so long as you lavish them with crystal and gorge them on aether. Your god are no different from those of the beasts - eikons every one. Accept but this, and you will see how Eorzeas faith is bleeding the land dry. Nor is this unknown to your masters, which prompts the question - why do they cling to these false deities? What drives men of learning - even the great louisoux to grovel at their feet? The answer? Your masters lack the strength to do otherwise! For the world of man to mean anything, man must own the world. To this end, he hath fought ever to raise himself through conflict, to grow rich through conquest. And the dust of the battle settles, it is ever the strong who dictate the fate of the weak. Knowing this, but a single path is open to their impotent ruler - that of false worship. A path which leads to enervation and death. Only a man of power can rightly steer the course of civilization. And in this land of creeping mendacity, that one truth will prove its salvation. Come champion of Eorzea, face me! Your defeat shall serve as proof of my readiness to rule! It is only right that I should take your realm, for none among you has the power to stop me!
I feel they should simply remove the main scenario roulette and rework praetorium into a solo instance where you fight alongside npcs. Doing prae over and over again really tests your sanity and is a bothersome obligation.
This was a very interesting video. Often when I've expressed desire for a "sandbox mmo", it was never about building in the world or having unpredictable systems. I've always thought of it as an mmo where my adventure is one of my own making. To me, this isn't the same thing as building or character creation gimmicks, which I've also never thought much of. I guess, when I say sandbox, I'm talking about games like the original Everquest. A game where you make your character, get out into the world and rather than following a predetermined path or being railroaded into a Main Questline, I got to decide where I was going to go and what I was going to be doing. Now of course my decisions were limited by what was in the game, what challenges I could overcome at any particular level, and what options I might suddenly have available based on the friends I made (or didn't) along the way, but I always felt like it was my adventure and my story. Sure, another player and I could swap stories about similar places we'd been in the world and monsters we encountered, but on a whole, it always felt like my progression through the game was unique to me and the choices I made. I'm not challenging your definition of what a sandbox mmo is. I think you're correct. Just pointing out that you might hear the term used incorrectly by players like me who really want something in between a sandbox and theme park. The ability to go off the rails and create your own adventure, but still play in the world the designers have hand crafted for the players without being tied to questlines that force you to play through it to unlock new zones, game features, etc.
I think you description fits a non linear MMO more or an MMO with a certain amount of level scaling which lets YOU decide where to go and which area you wanna play in right now.
That is exactly part of sand box design. Where a Theme Park is not on rails for say, it has areas where you take part the attractions. Sand Box design allows player freedom and adventure. Explore, Create, Interact, Socialize, Imagine, Discover, and Trade these are pillars of sandbox design. Where Theme parks will some Explore and Discover, but very limited in Interact and Create, Theme Park pillars are much more like Gather in Location, Admire, Play Activity, Collect, Reward, Challenge, Story/Lore, and Group Play Activities.
With how focused your channel is on MMO content and bringing this specific topic up - I'm honestly quite surprised you have not made a video about or spoken (to my recollection) about Star Wars Galaxies and the private server environment that currently exists. This game feels to me like its a mixture of both design philosophies to a certain extent and the fans of this game are tremendously passionate about their favorite server. You may want to check it out sometime.
I can’t stress this enough…you 100% remind me of Professor Tolarian in your video presentation. I love it. Still very unique tho! This is massive praise in my opinion
Theme Park over sandbox for me. Sandbox approach is great for single player titles, not so much for multiplayer, especially if the games leave free range to the players. It takes just a few dedicated players to ruin the experience of many others.
Indeed, for large part, once you built whatever there is only so much content you can experience. It get's pretty stale, however once you can destroy someone else and claim whatever resources they have it creates content. The problem being it tends to be a snowball effect, and whoever is victorious just keeps gobbling up the other players who then have to start from scratch.
Quite on the opposite. If you take a look, every single theme park MMO becomes a single player game down the line. TRUE Massively Multiplayer games are sandbox since it pretty much forces everyone to play together
@@TheBrazilRules This, Theme park MMOs are just bad single payer RPGs with other people around, for some reason. Hardly Multiplayer for a genre that's meant to be Massively Multiplayer.
I prefer theme park, mostly because in the majority of the sandbox games I've played, I get destroyed by whatever dominate player faction rules the server. It becomes impossible to get anywhere.
The catch is that the companies need to provide incentives for more than one group to be dominant, and need to offer resources for newer players to learn the ropes safely as well as find and discover compatible player groups to be a part of. EVE Online has a bit of a problem with the "blue donut" of nullsec space, but with wormhole space not having static connections as well as limiting how large of a force could invade them at once, it provides some extra areas for smaller groups to cut their teeth. Not to mention the Player->Corp->Alliance grouping, meaning that it's easier to find a corp you like to play with who is then able to move between alliances as needed, too.
Take Albion Online as an example. It is a fun game but as soon as you join a big alliance like ARCH or whatever there is, you will see that there is much more to it. It's almost like political parties that fight for strategic resources and the game becomes more like a job. Same probably goes for EVE Online too. I probably failed to wrap it in words properly, hope you get the gist.
@@Sadew_Sadew Its the blue bubble is mostly because of Jump drives and Sov upgrades, if they made null sec bigger the blue bubble won't be a problem, and if they removed sov upgrade.
I mean honestly, how many organic, purely "player-crafted" "stories" have you experienced in a Sandbox MMO? 99% of the time it's going to be: I built a shitshack because that's what the meta needs you to do, I crafted some stuff and then got cut down like a dog for no reason by someone who probably didn't even say anything to me except maybe cursing me out or something. Maybe, I got 2-3 friends to play some and then when we encountered other players we either killed them or they killed us, because there is F*CK ALL else to do in the game. Game designers make it seem like a Sandbox MMO would somehow be essentially a tabletop RPG with no GM except the game systems themselves, where all these interesting dynamics develop and unique stories happen, but it is literally just lord of the flies because ALL there is to do is 1. Collect resource 2. Make item 3. Kill player in almost every one of these.
I really have a hard time agreeing with the lego analogy. My brothers and I played lego all the time and while we all bought sets the sets were all built only ever once before being taken apart and thrown in the pile. Part of the fun has always been the MoC (My own Creation) aspect of Lego, where you could build whatever you want whenever you felt like it, and the skills you learn as you develop and build are then praised by others. The Lego movie selling kits based off of what was built in the movie wasn't a direct slam on the plot, and the fact people bought it doesn't confirm that theme park bias - people buy lego sets because they are cool. The stingy kids and collectors build a set, put it on the shelf, and then forget about it as a display item that's no different than a diorama or a model. The actual kids, the ones having fun, took it apart after to build their own thing. It's also worth noting that a lot of this angst involving the Sandbox has far less to do with the individual player experience and more to do with other people ruining the fun. That's not a sandbox problem, that's a player and rules enforcement problem. If you were to take a real world playground sandbox and told kids they could play in the sandbox like their favorite MMO or sandbox shooter there'd be a lot of upset kids and some very angry parents questioning who's in charge and demanding fair play. Modern sandboxes more or less evolved from that early internet freedoms of games like Ultima Online where people were allowed to literally do whatever they wanted, which included PVP spawncamping the city gates (to the point where an admin in Ultima was even berated by a player for preventing him from playing their game and had to reflect on his choices, as opposed to, say, ban the player for being a crappy sport and ruining other players fun). These kinds of players - the raiders, the spawncampers, the griefers - are only given free reign because the sandbox doesn't have explicit rules guiding appropriate play in the name of the freedom they are supposed to bring, so the moment the bullies know that there's no supervisor to berate or punish them they run wild at the expense of other players (which is where a sandbox will death spiral) (it's also why I don't ever play sandbox games on public multiplayer servers, it's not worth inevitably getting raided when I log off and losing my progress). A good sandbox provides the freedom of a player to make whatever they want, but a great sandbox offers that level of control without the punishment of another player being a douchebag, and provides more tools and toys for the player to do other things within their sandbox.
Now all I want is to to play an MMO that puts the ghosts from the haunted house in the bumper cars and run the bumper cars through a maze of roller coasters. Thanks, Josh.
While I may like the story driven superhero/villain theme park that is DCUO, my heart is always in the open multi-world experience of Star Wars Galaxies (classic version). Currently the only way to do that is SWGEmu emulated servers. The SWGLegends is okay though. It took the last version of the game and made it fun.
Many that he said actually weren't bad, but suffered from releasing at the same time or just before something better, or were once among the best but couldn't make new content fast enough, so everyone left.
@@LikaLaruku or completely failed the cash shop a lot of games at the time had a healthy player base or a good ide then over time just failed in everything.
Sandbox games are a great enjoyment for solo players and groups of friends. But once you bring more people in it, there is a greater chance that some of them are plainly a-holes. A MMO Sandbox game, giving players the power to influence the gaming world, would be destined to be abused by people. Plus, with housing, we already have a sandbox inside a theme park, one that isn't intrusive to other players and yet delivers a lot of freedom and creativity. So I would always prefair a theme park over a sandbox, unless a developer manages to create a sandbox MMO that doesn't end in potential frustration through other players. But that has yet to come.
Griefing and other forms of trolling is alive and well. Hell, I've seen that in roller coasters with people dragging high level foes into lowbie zones. The true classic is the "WoW Plague".
Literally the point of an is to be involved with other people, now this is not to say that having the option for solo experience is bad but to put that on a pedestal defeats the purpose of the genre imo. Themeparks to me are basically pre-scripted stories, where im forced to follow a pre-determined story line; far from the idea of being able to change the world through my own ideals
agree, there is a case for that. When internet get a power to decide something, it tend to be troll. A couple that give internet power to naming his unborn baby. Or a screen that display tweet from specific tag without any moderation or filter, internet use that to troll them. anonymous power behind the chair, doing anything with very little consequences tend to make people doing whatever without any restriction, except their moral compass. And people who don't believe about judgement or karma from their action, they usually don't care.
Complete opposite for me. Theme park mmorpgs feel like single player games with co-op modes and a perennial chat hub where you can see other people's avatars, except that usually they have way worse gameplay
I will always prefer theme park over sandbox. I hate games where they drop you in and expect you to create your own fun. I’m not creative enough to come up with my own in game agenda I like to follow the script and stick to the map rather than write my own on a blank slate Just to elaborate on my thoughts a bit more using some comparisons. Josh mentioning lego is genius. I used to love bionicle and I only ever built the figures as the instructions said to, while a friend would always use pieces from different figures to create his own. I never liked making maps in halo forge but loved playing online in maps that had already been made. I love world of Warcraft and hate Minecraft. It can even be applied to smartphones for the ever ongoing iOS (theme park) vs Android (sandbox) debates. It all comes down to how creative an individual is while partaking in these different products, and while I’m glad options exist for those who are able to take full advantage of it I’ve never been a creatively skilled person so I don’t enjoy making my own customized fun, I struggle to come up with what I want to do when someone hasn’t already laid out what the specific options are
The way I see it, many games focus on the size and grittiness of the "sandbox" to the point where it can be compared to getting dropped naked in a vast desert. The sandbox needs to have a boundary, you need to provide buckets and shovels, there should be other kids around, and if you want to engage in a more structured form of play, you should be allowed to leave the sandbox. Sometimes, you want to get out of the dirt and jump on the seesaw instead.
@@jonathansoko1085 this type of game works great for pvp games though. I love games where I can form relationships and plan revenge plots on other players for example. For me it is also much more memorable to make these experiences rather than play out one already written
I remember thinking a sandbox style MMO where players could build their own bases and go to war with each other would be so cool. Then you actually look at games like that and it is an abominable mess. A vast boring unchanging landscape, populated with bizarre impossible structures. The problem is players care more about optimization than aesthetic or immersion. If they want to stack five overlapping walls on top of one another, they'll do it. If they want to maximize their iron output by filling one room with 50 furnaces, they'll do it. If they want their entire fortress to be suspended in the air on one set of stairs, they'll do it. The problem is even if you try to keep your own design immersive and aesthetically pleasing this above behavior often becomes the meta. If you don't stack five overlapping walls, enjoy seeing them get torn down five times as fast. If you don't fill a room with 50 furnaces, have fun waiting forever for your ore to smelt. If you don't want to build a physics breaking air base, well I hope your easily accessible ground base enjoys getting invaded.
In the Lego movie, following the instructions is what got the Master Builders into the Villains tower which they had tried multiple times and failed before due to everyone having different idea's and not properly working together. I figured the point is that both following the instructions and building stuff on your own are both proper ways to play as long as your having fun. Other than that, I think both genre's have there place though if I want a sandbox game I'll usually play a regular rpg instead of an mmo.
IMO EVE got the balance right. You can totally play it as a theme park, stay in hi sec space, farm sites, do incursions, generally be a PvE carebear. Then you can head to null sec space, build space stations, fight for territory, and generally scam and steal your way to greatness. Albion online is an easier to get in version of EVE I've always found, but is simpler, and not based on space, which limits the systems available to it. Either one is not really a pickup and play game. It takes a long time to get used to, a long time to skill up to the better stuff, and a lifetime to learn fully. Theme parks are a lot clearer in direction, and most importantly, you can learn to play them instantly. My first few weeks in EVE were a struggle, like, a reeeeeal struggle.
Eve as a theme park didn't work out, at least for me. I tried it and it inevitably was boring and uninspired. Maybe because I'm not too fond of the sci fi theme, but everyone tells me that joining a corp and going to nullsec is where the fun is, and because I'm not into sandbox stuff like that, I ended up quitting. But again, could be that it's just the theme and narrative that are off putting to me, as well as the absurd ammount of time it takes to train a skill
PvE in EVE is godawful, and while I have seen a few people enjoy it, it makes me doubt their sanity. It is a sandbox game through and through - the "rides" aren't actually experiences to be enjoyed, they are 1) timesinks to make currency valuable so that you then spending that currency in the sandbox has weight 2) opportunities to put your assets out in space so people can try and gank you, generating more PvP content.
@@ElShogoso there are some ways to treat EVE as a sort of themepark - exploring world, looking for and running existing storylines, maybe a bit of roleplay even (not sure if it counts). Yet, in sandbox spirit, game does awful job at presenting you those options - you need to find what could be fun for you and start doing it yourself; this creates an obstacle for new players trying to enjoy the game: there's so many options it's hard to decide on anything. A lot of people suggest joining large groups, main benefit being any existing group will provide guidance and at least present you viable options without being overwhelming - nullsec isn't more fun than any other place in EVE, it's just the most organized area of space, and with organization comes guidance, allowing you to choose something fun to do others are organizing, instead of making your own fun.
I like theme parks. For me, theme park vs. sandbox can be likened with a restaurant where you'll either get a dish designed and crafted by a chef (but cannot change the contents) or you can mix and match, choose the protein, choose the sides, choose the wine. I'd much rather go to a restaurant and be served three courses that fit together with the perfect wine for each course, than having to decide for myself if mint sauce or hollandaise go best with the salmon. I recognise that my culinary skill is lower than the chef's.
The thing is that we just aren't at the point sandbox MMOs can be reliably made well, with the kinds we got now it's like you have make your own dish from scratch and work around things to get it right, but if we could make one that makes where ever you go become it's own story it would be more like your dish gets filled up with different sides and such, all already seasoned well, maybe not perfectly matched but you'll get something unique that no one else really had, which might matter or not depending on who you are. Basically we don't have the tech to make a world that we would actually get these interesting quests in, so we simulate this world by making a story of someone going through one.
Best explanation I’ve ever seen or heard about the differences between both styles of mmo, bravo! As for what I like the most, I feel I want a bit of both, but it’s hard to find and achieve…
A cool idea I had to kinda bridge the gap: player controlled castles/resource nodes that other players can assault in a raid type instance. The owners get to build it by buying premade rooms and hiring npc bodyguards/constructs/beasts to put in those rooms that make up the encounter. Maybe give them slight ai adjustments depending on the room and npc makeup. Dunno how well that would work, but I think it could be fun.
The lego Movie topic brought back some good nostalgia. After I watched the lego movie with friends we went home and opened massive boxes of lego just to build anything. I remember I build a big car, it had no cohesive coloring and was not symmetrical at all but I remember I added so many tiny details to it such as a ejector seat, moving claws etc. I was so proud of my self for making something I thought was cool with no instructions.
As a young game developer. Your videos are always great insights into possible ideas and consequences for the people developing and the player base. For me a MMORPG can only reach its highest evolution in terms of mechanics and playability is when it combines both with the strictness of the theme park theme and the flexibility and "freedom" to the interactions possible to the Player. For a Player when it goes to a MMORPG it's usually greeted with being unique, special and can influence the world and it's choice. But in reality it's following one route with no other choice than following what we have presented and "ordered" the player to experience and enjoy. I believe the Player should follow the route the game allows. Allow the World to be itself and the Player an outside variable can interact but can't change the foundation of that reality. At the end of the journey, instead of Player be given free reign to do what it wish it can do with parts of the World involved change it slightly and slowly. Letting the World and the rest of player base adapt with it or the World can reject your idea and try to erase you from it or other Players try to fight against you. This is not a perfect system but I believe a MMORPG like this instead of being opposites would be an evolutionary step in the right direction. A World where it changes itself but can be influenced slightly by the Player base in a very slow manner but the World can reject the Player and try to fight it off or accept it.
I think that Minecraft is good is a good example of how sandbox multiplayer games and up stable. Public servers require extreme moderation and regular rollbacks because of griefer, and action is taken to give players plots where only they have building rights. However on a private server you can play a full multiplayer sandbox with no limitations. It's the "massive" parr of mmo sandboxed that kills it for me. It's good an all that I can do anything, but there's a limit to how many players there can be before the environment goes degenerate
Well made and constantly updated theme park design definitely seems to be the approach that is more likely to create a long lasting experience as it allows for a lot more positive interaction for a much larger amount of people, while sandbox design CAN work really well in the shorter term (and in the case of a game like Minecraft, which of course isn't an MMO, has allowed for it to keep thriving for longer than many theme park type games), but in an MMO is much more likely to result in a short lived experience as there's just no reason to play if the game has no content outside of other players who will eventually move on anyway, especially as a majority of those games have either intentionally or unintentionally created somewhat unwelcoming and potentially toxic fanbases who make newer players feel unwelcome. I'd honestly say my preference has to fall on the side of theme park MMOs, but I absolutely love it when those games also integrate smaller elements which could be described as more "sandbox" such as housing systems where you can entirely customise your own little plot of land as it lets the game stay fresh with bursts of new content while also giving a chance to get creative and build a somewhat unique experience for each player.
In LOTRO, you feel like a part of an epic. In FFXIV every job you play feels like partaking in a long tradition, and you and every player are (for the most part) perfectly integrated into the world. In WoW, you felt like a part of the world built by Blizzard, and discovering it was awe.inspiring. In EverQuest P99, you truly ARE an adventurer thrust into an unforgiving (sandboxy) world. And what do most open world sandbox MMOs give you? You get thrust into the world and will get stressed by the constant threat of some people zerging you using some exploit, get called a "carebear" by even suggesting to the devs to alleviate the stress-level, and the only way to opt out is to not play. Oh and the only "immersion" you get is to pretend zerging takes skill.
theme box! no, wait. sandpark! ...I guess, for me, it depends on too many variables, so I may favor one today; the other tomorrow. I can't even tell off the top of my head which of the two styles I tend to prefer more often.
That is why I like when you have a lot of sets merged together with ton of instruction materials as ideas to build. It is fun to do something new with inspiration of something that you know you can actually do.
people hated theme-park MMOs before sandbox MMOs were even a thing though... I always thought "theme-park" was more MMOs that push you through sections of a game that have a general theme, with no real branching choices of where to go, everywhere you can level up is usually close by, almost never a reason to go backwards, until you're stuck at end-game at the end-game town and the rest of the world is empty except for newer players.
I can't take a bumper car on a rollercoaster or build a rollercoaster track through the bumpercar area? Naive Josh, I got hacks for my rollercoaster tycoon.
Have you ever covered Black Desert Online? I find it approaches the genre in a really interesting way, having no fast travel at all, making good horses and boats the most valuable currency in the entire game.
Don't mean to be rude but you sound like you haven't really fed into the beast that is BDO. Horses have value to an extent but you only really need drift instant accel for efficient movement and thats not that expensive to get especially with how easy it is to make money now. The main way to make money in BDO is grinding as efficiently as possible with maxed pets, tent, a few inv and weight upgrades and maids. Life skilling also has a few ways to make tons of money semi actively or actively.
I love creating my own stuff, I love designing and making changes to a game world. BUt i will never again touch a sandbox mmo. I dont trust the vast majority of players, i absolutly HATE some cnt just come around and ruin what i have worked on, it's making me furious.
I do think there is a market for games in the middle. I dont need to be able to build the mellenial falcon with the house building system but I do want to decide where my house and craftingtabgles should be. I Do want a well designed dungeon with a story but I want to find it myself and not through a questline. The elderscrolls games (not the mmo) I think has the best mix of sandbox/exploration with a curated liniar experience. Hard to implement with multiplayer though. Valheim probably has the best formula with optional multiplayer. Hop on a big server with random players or start your own with some friends.
Great vid as always, but i was hoping you'd talk more about the spectrum, how some games lean toward one or the other and how they turn out because of that
I definitely lean more sandbox, but I don't like a full sandbox like Mortal Online. My ideal game has a new player experience good enough to explain to the player what the tools and mechanics of the sandbox are, and what the main focus of the sandbox is, and then guides the player into the wilderness and helps them fly from the nest, so to speak. Crowfall is a good example of what I mean. Albion as well. Ashes looks to follow this example, to a bit lesser degree.
I would say Themepark is always higher quality, but given the proper chance sandbox could have a much higher ceiling, i believe sandbox games should not give total freedom but instead give quality tools, i always like to imagine a world of warcraft sandbox where your class actually matters, for example hunters have to hunt for food, etc, and where conflict could lead to factions wars where you cuould actually take over cities and trade routes, another example the horde takes over Ashevale and cut all the trees and turn it like Stonetalon Mountains, but the elves take over Felwood and restore it, probably im the only one but that sounds so good to me.
what you describe is a mostly themepark. In sandbox it is not "hunters have to hunt for food" but "food comes from hunting". about the "take city" we can find similar thing in some theme park, territory controll is not specific to sandbox. "Total freedom" is the way sandbox goes, the problem with this is people abusing and have no care about the fun of others players. For some guild, the "win" is when their ennemies surrender and... leave... the game. but there is solution to this, include mechanics that make the bad behaviour more risky, or increase cost. "you kill any PJ you see even low level ? ok no problem, but be ready to lose your stuff if you die. oh and you did so much time that now, all people can see where you are on the map, and they will be happy to kill you and take your stuff for them" Don't forbid thing, just make those thing costfull/painfull
Sounds good to you until you remember that servers are unbalanced faction wise and 1 faction will dominate the other one. So you could potentially wipe out the faction :D
Star Wars Galaxies was probably my favourite sandbox style mmo when I played it. They did have some theme park parts where you could go to a place and do some scripted confined quest lines, but for the most part, it was all sandbox. That being said, I think I do have the most fun with theme park styled mmo's now.
Right? Like you would have your favorite out of the way hunting spot and one day you show up and there is a whole player built town in that spot now. Yeah, your secret hunting ground is no longer a secret but the emergent gameplay was amazing.
Thats why I love theme park MMOs that have housing etc. in them. The gameplay doesn't get ruined by other players, but there is still an opportunity to create something unique that you can share with others. I remember Wildstar had a really good housing system with lots of freedom where and how you place something like full 3d movement, changing size and even color to a degree. And in Star Wars The Old Republic you can own huge areas with lots of space to place whatever you want and even some hidden secrets to explore. You can basically create your own main hub for you and your friends to come to when you need a vendor/storage/marketplace. Star Wars The Old Republic also has a very good storyline which is something you can't really get in sandbox games.
Choice paralysis. When there is so much choices, you can't choose anything. Not to mention, sandbox require creativity, and most people aren't really that into creation. Most people would rather play a game to have fun as soon as possible rather than think how to make something so that it is fun. I mean, it's amazing to see player made structures in minecraft, but most players probably just stick to 5 x 5 x 5 houses. Theme park wins on practicality, Sandbox wins on possibilities (positive or negative).
While I don't see myself playing it, I really like Crowfall's pitch of PvP sandboxes with a "duration" and then rewards that feed into meta-progression that exists outside of those sandboxes. It's an interesting solution to the problem of "sandboxes are at their best when they're brand-new," and I hope it plays out well in practice.
The problem with Sandboxes is that most of the time "sandbox" simply means "we didn't have money to make actual content", so you get a game that isn't mechanically much deeper than a theme park, and simply has nothing for players to do. The only sandbox with the level of work put into it equivalent to a decent theme park that comes to mind is EVE...
BDO is much like EVE, and much prettier (less of an excel spreadsheet) at that. A plethora of systems, a sea of content, generate revenue, get geared, build an empire, whatever you feel like. Better yet, in BDO you don't just lose a 10 billion ISK ship because you got ganked on a 6v1.
@@goncalolobo2450 hardly, infact i don't even remember the last time i grinded any spot. Never gambled anything either, hate the upgrade system, thats just as optional as the first, buy the TET or whatever you lookin at off the market. If i wanna be as reductive as that, i can sit here and claim EVE is just staring at rocks for 14 hours a day while you mine, on both your main and like 4 or 5 alts. They're solid sandbox games regardless.
@@goncalolobo2450 BDO has lots of content. However close to no content when it comes to PVE which is.....not good for an MMO imo. Their rng upgrading is ass tho and the fact you will get murdered in sub 2 seconds when you 'dare' to intrude upon good grinding spots with no alternative pve is what drove me away.
I can only think of one example of both being combined, and it's Mabinogi, with it's classless system that let's you mix and match skills and even create music and play it in game with different instruments, semi-random dungeons and areas that actively need to be explored and searched for hidden things and don't stay the same, yet it also contains JRPG levels of story and sidequests, I'm sure I'm not doing the game any service with this description it's not something I'm good at but I'd be interested to hear your opinion on it.
I like a theme park when I just want a more casual game. I like sandbox too. I think a mix of both would be kind of interesting too. For example I have an OSRS account that has the lowest health level it can. I am constantly looking for mechanics that come from items or effects that were obtained during quests or from minigame rewards. I feel like allowing some items to work outside of the area they were designed for in a game like Runescape can lead to some interesting things being made possible provided it doesn't break the game of course.
Theme parks over sandboxes any day...Damn you, Billy, pissing on my sandcastle when we were 4, 28 years ago...where was I...oh yes...I like the term theme park in general but as a game...sandbox, in which I will create a theme park.
I see all the points, but I also think there's a lot of middle ground, or at least pseudo-middle ground (that is, not really a middle ground but looks enough like it). When a theme park gets big enough, the rides don't always feel like rides. And even if they do, there's often something else to go on them again for. It's more like an arcade to me - I can expect a certain experience, but might get a special ticket for something, or I need enough tickets to get a different prize. Going from place to place doesn't have to feel like just going from ride to ride, either. Plenty of actual theme parks add interactivity. It's still pre-made, but finding secrets or just enjoying the view can absolutely be part of the fun. Treasure maps, hunts for rare monsters, and such can add more options to the overworld, and subzones (like Eureka and Bozja from FFXIV) can have an overworld feel but with a certain added level of interactivity - still not a sandbox, but prepping NMs or Skirmishes is a choice to make, and something players have to engage in. There's also the question of elements of pseudo-sandbox in an MMO. Player Housing may not allow you create a whole dungeon, but you could create, say, a jumping puzzle, or a themed experience for others to enjoy.
Even with being a long time MMO player with an understanding of sandbox vs theme park this thoughtful analysis and explanation was really enjoyable. I have always enjoyed theme parks more. WoW to me is an interesting case. I felt in 2004 with vanilla the experience was less guided and was a theme park with some sandbox open elements there. It is likely looking back on the experience through a lens of nostalgia to a time when the players were inexperienced and did not know what we were doing that made it feel more like it had sandbox elements.
I freely admit that I shed a nostalgic tear when the footage of Defiance was playing. Holy hell, that game had so much potential! By all rights that should've been Destiny before Destiny. Plus the show it was based on was kinda cool.
I recon I'm a Theme Park guy based on the MMOs I've played: EverQuest, World of Warcraft, DC Universe Online, Rift, Star Trek Online, Champions Online, Planetside 2 (only during Beta) and now Elder Scrolls Online. Since I'm also an Altoholic and thus do a lot of "Horizontal Progression" I tend to play a lot of the same areas in an MMO multiple times, but for me it hardly ever gets boring.
I like hybrids of the two. A game with structure but not structure you need to follow and enough freedom to let you do whatever you want where you want. Star Citizen is aiming for this and what we see so far is pretty amazing. There are missions you can do with quest markers and specific objectives and at the same time plenty of room to take pretty much any item anywhere with any combination of ships and weapons with any number of players and make your own fun. This is how I entered huge 50 player PVP fights almost daily through 2019 and now join tons of large events from races to death match battles to fashion shows. I even saw a dude RPing as a bar tender in one of the bars handing out drinks to players and using VOIP to take orders. All that said my favorite MMO is Guild Wars 2 which is a pretty non linear theme park MMO. I had always thought it was pretty sandboxy as there is no real direction and you can tackle anything at pretty much any time in any order. Your objectives and goals are your own and there are so many ways to accomplish whatever you want from general exploration and world events to structured PVE in dungeons and raids and even all the way to structured small scale PVP and very unstructured massive PVP. I guess its not totally a sandbox but the progression feels kind of sand boxy as the game does not give direction and your enjoyment is totally on you to find what is fun. A lot of games will tell you what to do to have fun and progress and I find these kinds of game a little boring as sometimes I don't want to do these things. This is why I quit WOW, I don't like dungeons and raids but that is really the only way to progress the character outside of PVP and WOWs PVP is kind of a joke.
Great video, If I could make a suggestion, When using clips of games, Have something either on the clip or in the description to say what the game is. If its one you covered on your worst MMO series then a link to it, I would enjoy this a lot as a newer viewer of your channel. :)
While not an MMO, Stardew valley is a good example of a semi-hybrid approach. You get some sandbox freedom while enjoying some theme park content. I do believe you can have a hybrid approach and this could offer the best of both worlds for some future mmos.
I would prefer if MMOS were like Theme parks with occasional Sandbox elements . Like lets throw a turtle with a mountain on its back walking on the outskirts of a town. the developers would ask the community how they would interact with this entity and poll popular suggestions- lets say killing it with a canon wins over Capturing it or even scaling it with Grappling hooks (theres even submitted designs on the forums). several side quests pop up that requires wood ,gun powder, metals to be gathered, maybe some NPCs want to study it and hype up the players, ETC. Then next update comes around and theres a cutscene of the community built cannon killing the entity , now theres a new explorable area the mountain on the turtles back with new enemies and resources a new theme park.
In my experience, sandbox MMOs tend to be more heavy handed with the monetisation. Cash shop inventory upgrades, deeds to own on land, materials you need to build things, almost anything to do with player housing... All the cool customisation stuff tends to be locked off by a pay wall or with ridiculous grinding.
then there are the cases where you do get away with taking the laser guns outside the arena, and it works and players have fun, and then devs swoop in and cancel the fun.
like you previously mentioned in other video: people want to feel comfort and familiar which is one of reason why lot of people love themepark game despite repetition/limitation. not saying it is bad things though. like you said, everything has pro and cons.
While I love the idea of sandboxes, I think it's just seen as too risky by the people that could pull it off and too ambitious to be pulled off by the rest. You can see this in procedurally generated content. If you don't put enough effort into it (often thinking that it's a shortcut to more content without lower quality) then you'll get quests that people can tell are procedural, the fewer variables they have the quicker someone can tell what those are. For example, two variables gets you quests like "Go here, kill this" or "Kill this, X times" and at best you have something like "Go here, clear out this camp/cave/dungeon" but then clearing out the same places feels the same, and feels unimportant if that doesn't actually clear out the place. But if you keep adding to it you can get something more dynamic, "Go here, Kill these things, save this thing/bring back this item, do it in this time frame, if you're late aspects change, this guy might betray you, the things you are sent to kill might be misunderstood and don't need to be killed, this quest serves a purpose (such as strengthens a faction/weakens another faction/opens a trade route/gets you closer to find some artifact/raises your reputation)" with more variables it becomes harder to pick out what they are made up and makes them feel more like a part of the world with some propose that isn't just grinding: the quest. Though all this really only appeals to people that want unique adventures instead of the them park "YOU ARE THE HERO OF THE REALM AND OUR ONLY HOPE." Where you aren't treading new ground, you aren't finding something new or learning about a character that you can't just look up on the wiki. Another appeal is that if you can do a sandbox MMO good enough (enough player driven events and NPCs knowing how to react to things) you can have a living world where towns get raided or destroyed, new towns get made and factions wax and wane in power in real time as the players within either try to stay out of the danger of these large events or find ways to shape them how they want, such as becoming a high-ranking player in a guild or faction that has say in these things, or even building up your own power to stand on your own, even if you won't be able to do as much as a whole faction you will still make a mark that is completely your own. Again, harder to do and doesn't have the advantage of reusing most content for all players, so it's risky to make. We'll just have to wait for technology to advance to the point it becomes easy enough to be done that it isn't too much of a risk or that it can be made by those that are willing to take the risk, either that or we get AI that are advanced enough to create quests on the fly and manage dynamic story lines all over the place.
I think Runescape's model is my favorite in this argument: the devs make skills and quests *feel* like sandbox because you discover them seemingly naturally. But it isn't sandbox, every piece of content in the game is hand-made. Even life skills, which are theoretically survival elements, are crafted by a dev, with items made for every milestone. Its all theme park. Except the GE, the economy is purely player-made, and there are emergent stories throughout. Basically, the theme park rides are are pre-built, but you choose when to experience what ride, but, there is a big pile of sand in the corner.
It's still a sandbox mmo forsure tho. The easiest way to tell the difference is to look at the zones or areas. Varrock is still useful to a level 3 as it is 126. Whereas in WoW Elwynn Forest is really a level 5-10 area forever. The former being sandbox, the latter being themepark.
for me sandbox will always scream "we're too lazy to do our shit so do our shit for us but don't forget to pay", plus the inherent "freedom" of choice and influence a player can have (make or break) can easily ruin someone else's hard work, the only exception I found on this rule is EVE Online
Oh yeah, often "player driven content" can just be them saying "do our work" but for that to work there needs enough of a foundation for players do shape the world and stop trouble makers that can do a lot of damage because they either can respawn easy or don't care about losing some work to make someone else lose even more work.
Considering how many theme park MMOs are creatively bankrupt WoW clones, I think it's OK for players to give something else a shot rather than more of the same.
@@cattysplat I think it's more that it's a less risky and better explored way (theme park) of making an MMO so you'll see plenty of uninspired MMOs using it. Like Unity, it's a a good an easy platform to make games with, but since it's easier to use, more trash ends up made in unity (also because of the water mark that only shows up for smaller (no-low profit) games).
look up haven and hearth i think you'll be pleasantly surprised. It really just completely depends how you implemented it. The only good implementations i have seen so far are, eve online, haven and hearth and ultima online.
@@Dimitri88888888 Oh man I haven't looked at haven and hearth in such a long time, I should really check back on it. I can't remember the development situation of it, are they still adding on to the game?
What about theme park with rides and sandboxed areas? E.g. imagine an actual sandbox area inside a theme park for the kids to play with. Anything goes in terms of player design but only in that area…
That's basically two different games at that point. Developing mechanics and support systems needed in a sandbox is a massive undertaking, and very little of that can be re-used in a theme park.
I've played far more themepark MMO's than openworld, but the one openworld game I played was much more memorable; Darkfall Online. Yes, the game itself wasn't too great. But the community and the world/mechanics that enabled large scale wars was something that could only experienced like that in that game. How many times in your lifetime will you have an MMO were there is a literal world war going on ingame involving over 5000+ players. Darkfall Online has a special place in my heart and will for always be an unforgetable experience.
Nothing can't compete with UO, sandbox or themepark. Open world pvp at his best, PVE was a bit redundant but there was so many places to go and the world was feeling so big.
SO i been playing FF14 as a former wow player and i gotta say i've never spent so little time in menu's in a mmorpg. it's kinda weird that's what i been thinking about i'm playing more outside of menu's no talent tree no menu systems no tables to messure just pick class play i think equment menu's have been used less cause i can auto equpe faster.
Final Fantasy XI actually does a little bit of both. Conquest, Besieged, Campaign, and Colonization are each their own closed sandbox systems, usually with different factions vying for power from moment to moment, and a big update based on the results of that struggle at the end of each Earth week. Also, the very nature of a shared overworld makes it very possible to walk through an area shortly after somebody slaughtered all the monsters on your path, leaving you with an empty path until they start respawning. Even today, all it takes is one fool walking behind Mireu to make an entire server angry at them for triggering its devastating AoE Spike Flail. That said, there is also decidedly partitioned content players can experience individually. Mission (story) content, obviously, but also certain quests, battlefield fights, and gameplay systems such as Ambuscade, Assault, the reworked Dynamis, and Omen. For our part, all FFXI players particularly seem to care about is whether a system is worth putting the time into it or not.
What if a dungeon boss had more than one type of fight mechanics. Instead of the same old thing. It could be tied to how the dungeon was cleared to the boss or just random. Hell even have it where the boss could enter some rooms of the dungeon if something happens. That would be one hell of a shake up. POE did that in last season, Brutus was not in his spawn room, he was on the way to his room that never had any mobs.
Eve Online is pretty much a mix. You can join a massive faction and compete for dominance in nul sec, and you can manufacture and trade anywhere, true. But you can also play for years as a high-sec adventurer running missions for the various NPC factions and getting rewards strictly in high sec (where other players can't gank you without suffering significant penalties.) So I would say that Eve Online is the perfect example of a mix that works, because you have the freedom to play both theme park and sandbox both, to whatever degree you prefer. (Speaking as a former high sec dual boxing tengu carebear myself :) )
I like my MMOs as a theme park. Funny you should bring up Guild Wars 2 though; it has some interesting compromises. Dynamic events help keep the open world from being stale, and each of the heart 'quests' have multiple objectives, so any 2 players could have completed it differently. WvW mixes it up a bit with fixed fort locations but destructible walls and player buildable upgrades and siege weapons - any time you enter, the zones could be controlled by different worlds, varying your available targets and priorities. There could be a player commander rallying the other players to take over zones, or just a scattered collection of roamers trying to defend and pick off stragglers. Good discussion though.
![Dungeons and Raids should NOT be endgame only [MMOPINION]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ySHmXCTLSHM/mqdefault.jpg)
I propose a third category: date dungeon
clearly, an under-appreciated genre
The FBI would love to look at these
@@finallychangedmyname3614 Some form of watchlist at the very least.
Sounds like my ideal night in honestly
@Desedoo The Spellsword or Parler...
Sandbox doesn't have to be openworld pvp, I feel like many here are conflating the two due to recent titles favoring pvp. There's no reason a PVE focused MMO can't be a sandbox
Well said
I loved WURM online back in the day and only played on PvE servers. Focus on traiding/building and get your neighbour together when a scary monster spawn close to you. I also worked as a road builder to make it easier for ppl to get around the map, sure i got a few coins for making the road but it was more for the community.
PvP is further towards sanbox on the scale because PvE always includes some curation in designing the Environment part. However, I agree with you that PvE focused games can fall into the sandbox category.
@@Kenionatus ehm in wurms it's only spawn that's made by dev, majority of ppl live on avg at least 20min from spawn. The rest of the world is "wild"
Actually I think that pvp prefer sandbox not the other way around… if you kill for joy… you’ll get even more joy when you can build an empire.
With a little ingenuity, you could add ghosts to the bumper cars, though.
ah yes, Secret World had that and it was great
If it's too easy to add ghosts to your bumper cars, you have a serious safety issue.
For theming, yes. It's still applicable, it probably represents expansions XD
@@Shinki8421 Yes, it was amazing!
Ghost Bumpers
Praetorium as backdrop to the discussion of how theme park repetition gets stale: galaxy brain move.
SUCH DEVASTATION
Tell me, for whom do you fight? How very glib, and do you believe in Eorzea? Eorzea's is forged on falsehoods. It's cities are built on deceit and it's faith is an instrument of deception. It is naught but a cobweb of lies - to believe in Eorzea is to believe in nothing. In Eorzea, the beast tribes often summon Gods to fight in their stead. Though your comrades only rarely respond in kind - which is strange is it not? Are the twelve otherwise "engaged"? I was given to understand they were your protectors. If you truly believe them your guardians, why do not repeat the trick that served you in carteneau and call them down? They will answer so long as you lavish them with crystal and gorge them on aether. Your god are no different from those of the beasts - eikons every one. Accept but this, and you will see how Eorzeas faith is bleeding the land dry. Nor is this unknown to your masters, which prompts the question - why do they cling to these false deities? What drives men of learning - even the great louisoux to grovel at their feet? The answer? Your masters lack the strength to do otherwise! For the world of man to mean anything, man must own the world. To this end, he hath fought ever to raise himself through conflict, to grow rich through conquest. And the dust of the battle settles, it is ever the strong who dictate the fate of the weak. Knowing this, but a single path is open to their impotent ruler - that of false worship. A path which leads to enervation and death. Only a man of power can rightly steer the course of civilization. And in this land of creeping mendacity, that one truth will prove its salvation. Come champion of Eorzea, face me! Your defeat shall serve as proof of my readiness to rule! It is only right that I should take your realm, for none among you has the power to stop me!
I feel they should simply remove the main scenario roulette and rework praetorium into a solo instance where you fight alongside npcs. Doing prae over and over again really tests your sanity and is a bothersome obligation.
@@jeremywright9511 its not obligatiom though? I think of it as community service that pays well when you need the exp or tomes.
@@blushingralseiuwu2222 People's obsessions with doing MSQRoulette on the daily is nothing short of bizzarre.
I think player housing is a type of sandbox inside of a theme park that a lot of people enjoy/want in their mmo
This was a very interesting video. Often when I've expressed desire for a "sandbox mmo", it was never about building in the world or having unpredictable systems. I've always thought of it as an mmo where my adventure is one of my own making. To me, this isn't the same thing as building or character creation gimmicks, which I've also never thought much of.
I guess, when I say sandbox, I'm talking about games like the original Everquest. A game where you make your character, get out into the world and rather than following a predetermined path or being railroaded into a Main Questline, I got to decide where I was going to go and what I was going to be doing. Now of course my decisions were limited by what was in the game, what challenges I could overcome at any particular level, and what options I might suddenly have available based on the friends I made (or didn't) along the way, but I always felt like it was my adventure and my story. Sure, another player and I could swap stories about similar places we'd been in the world and monsters we encountered, but on a whole, it always felt like my progression through the game was unique to me and the choices I made.
I'm not challenging your definition of what a sandbox mmo is. I think you're correct. Just pointing out that you might hear the term used incorrectly by players like me who really want something in between a sandbox and theme park. The ability to go off the rails and create your own adventure, but still play in the world the designers have hand crafted for the players without being tied to questlines that force you to play through it to unlock new zones, game features, etc.
I think you description fits a non linear MMO more or an MMO with a certain amount of level scaling which lets YOU decide where to go and which area you wanna play in right now.
Nice! Y'all do exist! It's not just me!
I'll take this as a proof of concept, and run with it.
This is what sandbox's were originally suppose to be, but the AAA studios had to come and f*ck everything up.
That is exactly part of sand box design. Where a Theme Park is not on rails for say, it has areas where you take part the attractions. Sand Box design allows player freedom and adventure. Explore, Create, Interact, Socialize, Imagine, Discover, and Trade these are pillars of sandbox design. Where Theme parks will some Explore and Discover, but very limited in Interact and Create, Theme Park pillars are much more like Gather in Location, Admire, Play Activity, Collect, Reward, Challenge, Story/Lore, and Group Play Activities.
With how focused your channel is on MMO content and bringing this specific topic up - I'm honestly quite surprised you have not made a video about or spoken (to my recollection) about Star Wars Galaxies and the private server environment that currently exists. This game feels to me like its a mixture of both design philosophies to a certain extent and the fans of this game are tremendously passionate about their favorite server. You may want to check it out sometime.
God damn it, Josh. I started your video while doing an MSQ daily roulette and now I'll watch Praetorium while playing Praetorium? Such devastation..
Was this your intention?
I can’t stress this enough…you 100% remind me of Professor Tolarian in your video presentation. I love it. Still very unique tho! This is massive praise in my opinion
Theme Park over sandbox for me.
Sandbox approach is great for single player titles, not so much for multiplayer, especially if the games leave free range to the players. It takes just a few dedicated players to ruin the experience of many others.
negatory. some sandbox games are completely reliant on being multiplayer.
Indeed, for large part, once you built whatever there is only so much content you can experience. It get's pretty stale, however once you can destroy someone else and claim whatever resources they have it creates content. The problem being it tends to be a snowball effect, and whoever is victorious just keeps gobbling up the other players who then have to start from scratch.
Quite on the opposite. If you take a look, every single theme park MMO becomes a single player game down the line. TRUE Massively Multiplayer games are sandbox since it pretty much forces everyone to play together
@@TheBrazilRules This, Theme park MMOs are just bad single payer RPGs with other people around, for some reason. Hardly Multiplayer for a genre that's meant to be Massively Multiplayer.
@@fatrat92 Why was WoW so popular again?
"you can't build a rollercoaster track through the bumpercars" is that a challenge?
Rollercoaster Tycoon with multiplayer.
I was thinking the people mover at Disney world.
This sounds like something Lets Game it Out would make happen in a RC game
I prefer theme park, mostly because in the majority of the sandbox games I've played, I get destroyed by whatever dominate player faction rules the server. It becomes impossible to get anywhere.
The catch is that the companies need to provide incentives for more than one group to be dominant, and need to offer resources for newer players to learn the ropes safely as well as find and discover compatible player groups to be a part of. EVE Online has a bit of a problem with the "blue donut" of nullsec space, but with wormhole space not having static connections as well as limiting how large of a force could invade them at once, it provides some extra areas for smaller groups to cut their teeth. Not to mention the Player->Corp->Alliance grouping, meaning that it's easier to find a corp you like to play with who is then able to move between alliances as needed, too.
I agree. Sandbox comes with a really difficult issue: balancing.
Take Albion Online as an example. It is a fun game but as soon as you join a big alliance like ARCH or whatever there is, you will see that there is much more to it. It's almost like political parties that fight for strategic resources and the game becomes more like a job. Same probably goes for EVE Online too.
I probably failed to wrap it in words properly, hope you get the gist.
sounds like yall are just entitled whiny players
@@Sadew_Sadew Its the blue bubble is mostly because of Jump drives and Sov upgrades, if they made null sec bigger the blue bubble won't be a problem, and if they removed sov upgrade.
I mean honestly, how many organic, purely "player-crafted" "stories" have you experienced in a Sandbox MMO? 99% of the time it's going to be: I built a shitshack because that's what the meta needs you to do, I crafted some stuff and then got cut down like a dog for no reason by someone who probably didn't even say anything to me except maybe cursing me out or something. Maybe, I got 2-3 friends to play some and then when we encountered other players we either killed them or they killed us, because there is F*CK ALL else to do in the game. Game designers make it seem like a Sandbox MMO would somehow be essentially a tabletop RPG with no GM except the game systems themselves, where all these interesting dynamics develop and unique stories happen, but it is literally just lord of the flies because ALL there is to do is 1. Collect resource 2. Make item 3. Kill player in almost every one of these.
I really have a hard time agreeing with the lego analogy. My brothers and I played lego all the time and while we all bought sets the sets were all built only ever once before being taken apart and thrown in the pile. Part of the fun has always been the MoC (My own Creation) aspect of Lego, where you could build whatever you want whenever you felt like it, and the skills you learn as you develop and build are then praised by others. The Lego movie selling kits based off of what was built in the movie wasn't a direct slam on the plot, and the fact people bought it doesn't confirm that theme park bias - people buy lego sets because they are cool. The stingy kids and collectors build a set, put it on the shelf, and then forget about it as a display item that's no different than a diorama or a model. The actual kids, the ones having fun, took it apart after to build their own thing.
It's also worth noting that a lot of this angst involving the Sandbox has far less to do with the individual player experience and more to do with other people ruining the fun. That's not a sandbox problem, that's a player and rules enforcement problem. If you were to take a real world playground sandbox and told kids they could play in the sandbox like their favorite MMO or sandbox shooter there'd be a lot of upset kids and some very angry parents questioning who's in charge and demanding fair play. Modern sandboxes more or less evolved from that early internet freedoms of games like Ultima Online where people were allowed to literally do whatever they wanted, which included PVP spawncamping the city gates (to the point where an admin in Ultima was even berated by a player for preventing him from playing their game and had to reflect on his choices, as opposed to, say, ban the player for being a crappy sport and ruining other players fun). These kinds of players - the raiders, the spawncampers, the griefers - are only given free reign because the sandbox doesn't have explicit rules guiding appropriate play in the name of the freedom they are supposed to bring, so the moment the bullies know that there's no supervisor to berate or punish them they run wild at the expense of other players (which is where a sandbox will death spiral) (it's also why I don't ever play sandbox games on public multiplayer servers, it's not worth inevitably getting raided when I log off and losing my progress).
A good sandbox provides the freedom of a player to make whatever they want, but a great sandbox offers that level of control without the punishment of another player being a douchebag, and provides more tools and toys for the player to do other things within their sandbox.
Now all I want is to to play an MMO that puts the ghosts from the haunted house in the bumper cars and run the bumper cars through a maze of roller coasters. Thanks, Josh.
Thème Park. With sand box elements that allow emergent gameplay
@@DemethVLK so basically something like Foxhole?
wich design you believe is taquito bandito's favorite?
The ones involving a green screen I would quess 😂
the one with the most novelty mugs!
2D idle MMOs.
While I may like the story driven superhero/villain theme park that is DCUO, my heart is always in the open multi-world experience of Star Wars Galaxies (classic version). Currently the only way to do that is SWGEmu emulated servers. The SWGLegends is okay though. It took the last version of the game and made it fun.
your hability to write a really great text is incredible and awesome. keep with your good work
I'm all about that finely crafted and tightly tuned theme park life!
I love how much of the b footage is from all of the truly awful games he's been subjected to
he's subjected himself to* lol, big difference
@@tindekappa9047 that's a fair point
Many that he said actually weren't bad, but suffered from releasing at the same time or just before something better, or were once among the best but couldn't make new content fast enough, so everyone left.
@@LikaLaruku or completely failed the cash shop a lot of games at the time had a healthy player base or a good ide then over time just failed in everything.
I saw no Dreamworld footage for the Sandbox part. I was disappointed.
Sandbox games are a great enjoyment for solo players and groups of friends. But once you bring more people in it, there is a greater chance that some of them are plainly a-holes. A MMO Sandbox game, giving players the power to influence the gaming world, would be destined to be abused by people. Plus, with housing, we already have a sandbox inside a theme park, one that isn't intrusive to other players and yet delivers a lot of freedom and creativity. So I would always prefair a theme park over a sandbox, unless a developer manages to create a sandbox MMO that doesn't end in potential frustration through other players. But that has yet to come.
Griefing and other forms of trolling is alive and well. Hell, I've seen that in roller coasters with people dragging high level foes into lowbie zones.
The true classic is the "WoW Plague".
Literally the point of an is to be involved with other people, now this is not to say that having the option for solo experience is bad but to put that on a pedestal defeats the purpose of the genre imo. Themeparks to me are basically pre-scripted stories, where im forced to follow a pre-determined story line; far from the idea of being able to change the world through my own ideals
agree, there is a case for that.
When internet get a power to decide something, it tend to be troll.
A couple that give internet power to naming his unborn baby.
Or a screen that display tweet from specific tag without any moderation or filter, internet use that to troll them.
anonymous power behind the chair, doing anything with very little consequences tend to make people doing whatever without any restriction, except their moral compass.
And people who don't believe about judgement or karma from their action, they usually don't care.
Complete opposite for me. Theme park mmorpgs feel like single player games with co-op modes and a perennial chat hub where you can see other people's avatars, except that usually they have way worse gameplay
Could mini world solve this? A sandbox world with less people
I've always liked the idea of sandbox MMOs but when I play them I eventually just want to ride some good old-fashioned roller coasters.
I will always prefer theme park over sandbox. I hate games where they drop you in and expect you to create your own fun. I’m not creative enough to come up with my own in game agenda I like to follow the script and stick to the map rather than write my own on a blank slate
Just to elaborate on my thoughts a bit more using some comparisons. Josh mentioning lego is genius. I used to love bionicle and I only ever built the figures as the instructions said to, while a friend would always use pieces from different figures to create his own. I never liked making maps in halo forge but loved playing online in maps that had already been made. I love world of Warcraft and hate Minecraft. It can even be applied to smartphones for the ever ongoing iOS (theme park) vs Android (sandbox) debates. It all comes down to how creative an individual is while partaking in these different products, and while I’m glad options exist for those who are able to take full advantage of it I’ve never been a creatively skilled person so I don’t enjoy making my own customized fun, I struggle to come up with what I want to do when someone hasn’t already laid out what the specific options are
ah the good ol "we didnt create content cUz MaKe YoUr oWn fUn" type of game
The way I see it, many games focus on the size and grittiness of the "sandbox" to the point where it can be compared to getting dropped naked in a vast desert. The sandbox needs to have a boundary, you need to provide buckets and shovels, there should be other kids around, and if you want to engage in a more structured form of play, you should be allowed to leave the sandbox. Sometimes, you want to get out of the dirt and jump on the seesaw instead.
@@jonathansoko1085 this type of game works great for pvp games though. I love games where I can form relationships and plan revenge plots on other players for example. For me it is also much more memorable to make these experiences rather than play out one already written
@@gagne6928 If the RNG gods wills it.
MMO Players: We want something new!
Every dev: WHAT IF WE MIXED DARK SOULS COMBAT WITH MINECRAFT?
Can I have Dark Souls combat with no Minecraft?
I remember thinking a sandbox style MMO where players could build their own bases and go to war with each other would be so cool. Then you actually look at games like that and it is an abominable mess. A vast boring unchanging landscape, populated with bizarre impossible structures. The problem is players care more about optimization than aesthetic or immersion.
If they want to stack five overlapping walls on top of one another, they'll do it.
If they want to maximize their iron output by filling one room with 50 furnaces, they'll do it.
If they want their entire fortress to be suspended in the air on one set of stairs, they'll do it.
The problem is even if you try to keep your own design immersive and aesthetically pleasing this above behavior often becomes the meta.
If you don't stack five overlapping walls, enjoy seeing them get torn down five times as fast.
If you don't fill a room with 50 furnaces, have fun waiting forever for your ore to smelt.
If you don't want to build a physics breaking air base, well I hope your easily accessible ground base enjoys getting invaded.
Rust
John Strife Hayes: In the sandbox there are no rollercoasters.
Me: You visit some lame sandboxs John.
Minecraft single player experience: good
Minecraft joining random servers: not so good
In the Lego movie, following the instructions is what got the Master Builders into the Villains tower which they had tried multiple times and failed before due to everyone having different idea's and not properly working together. I figured the point is that both following the instructions and building stuff on your own are both proper ways to play as long as your having fun. Other than that, I think both genre's have there place though if I want a sandbox game I'll usually play a regular rpg instead of an mmo.
I would of liked for the great content. But liking for the font size.
Much love brother
IMO EVE got the balance right. You can totally play it as a theme park, stay in hi sec space, farm sites, do incursions, generally be a PvE carebear. Then you can head to null sec space, build space stations, fight for territory, and generally scam and steal your way to greatness.
Albion online is an easier to get in version of EVE I've always found, but is simpler, and not based on space, which limits the systems available to it.
Either one is not really a pickup and play game. It takes a long time to get used to, a long time to skill up to the better stuff, and a lifetime to learn fully.
Theme parks are a lot clearer in direction, and most importantly, you can learn to play them instantly. My first few weeks in EVE were a struggle, like, a reeeeeal struggle.
Eve as a theme park didn't work out, at least for me. I tried it and it inevitably was boring and uninspired. Maybe because I'm not too fond of the sci fi theme, but everyone tells me that joining a corp and going to nullsec is where the fun is, and because I'm not into sandbox stuff like that, I ended up quitting. But again, could be that it's just the theme and narrative that are off putting to me, as well as the absurd ammount of time it takes to train a skill
PvE in EVE is godawful, and while I have seen a few people enjoy it, it makes me doubt their sanity. It is a sandbox game through and through - the "rides" aren't actually experiences to be enjoyed, they are 1) timesinks to make currency valuable so that you then spending that currency in the sandbox has weight 2) opportunities to put your assets out in space so people can try and gank you, generating more PvP content.
@@MeneltirFalmaro Well call me insane then I guess. 😱
@@ElShogoso there are some ways to treat EVE as a sort of themepark - exploring world, looking for and running existing storylines, maybe a bit of roleplay even (not sure if it counts). Yet, in sandbox spirit, game does awful job at presenting you those options - you need to find what could be fun for you and start doing it yourself; this creates an obstacle for new players trying to enjoy the game: there's so many options it's hard to decide on anything.
A lot of people suggest joining large groups, main benefit being any existing group will provide guidance and at least present you viable options without being overwhelming - nullsec isn't more fun than any other place in EVE, it's just the most organized area of space, and with organization comes guidance, allowing you to choose something fun to do others are organizing, instead of making your own fun.
I like theme parks. For me, theme park vs. sandbox can be likened with a restaurant where you'll either get a dish designed and crafted by a chef (but cannot change the contents) or you can mix and match, choose the protein, choose the sides, choose the wine. I'd much rather go to a restaurant and be served three courses that fit together with the perfect wine for each course, than having to decide for myself if mint sauce or hollandaise go best with the salmon. I recognise that my culinary skill is lower than the chef's.
The thing is that we just aren't at the point sandbox MMOs can be reliably made well, with the kinds we got now it's like you have make your own dish from scratch and work around things to get it right, but if we could make one that makes where ever you go become it's own story it would be more like your dish gets filled up with different sides and such, all already seasoned well, maybe not perfectly matched but you'll get something unique that no one else really had, which might matter or not depending on who you are.
Basically we don't have the tech to make a world that we would actually get these interesting quests in, so we simulate this world by making a story of someone going through one.
Best explanation I’ve ever seen or heard about the differences between both styles of mmo, bravo!
As for what I like the most, I feel I want a bit of both, but it’s hard to find and achieve…
A cool idea I had to kinda bridge the gap: player controlled castles/resource nodes that other players can assault in a raid type instance. The owners get to build it by buying premade rooms and hiring npc bodyguards/constructs/beasts to put in those rooms that make up the encounter. Maybe give them slight ai adjustments depending on the room and npc makeup.
Dunno how well that would work, but I think it could be fun.
Camelot unchained is basically doing that.
The lego Movie topic brought back some good nostalgia. After I watched the lego movie with friends we went home and opened massive boxes of lego just to build anything. I remember I build a big car, it had no cohesive coloring and was not symmetrical at all but I remember I added so many tiny details to it such as a ejector seat, moving claws etc. I was so proud of my self for making something I thought was cool with no instructions.
*me not reading the title properly:* OMG AN MMO WHERE YOU CAN CREATE YOUR OWN THEME PARK???
As a young game developer. Your videos are always great insights into possible ideas and consequences for the people developing and the player base. For me a MMORPG can only reach its highest evolution in terms of mechanics and playability is when it combines both with the strictness of the theme park theme and the flexibility and "freedom" to the interactions possible to the Player. For a Player when it goes to a MMORPG it's usually greeted with being unique, special and can influence the world and it's choice. But in reality it's following one route with no other choice than following what we have presented and "ordered" the player to experience and enjoy. I believe the Player should follow the route the game allows. Allow the World to be itself and the Player an outside variable can interact but can't change the foundation of that reality. At the end of the journey, instead of Player be given free reign to do what it wish it can do with parts of the World involved change it slightly and slowly. Letting the World and the rest of player base adapt with it or the World can reject your idea and try to erase you from it or other Players try to fight against you. This is not a perfect system but I believe a MMORPG like this instead of being opposites would be an evolutionary step in the right direction. A World where it changes itself but can be influenced slightly by the Player base in a very slow manner but the World can reject the Player and try to fight it off or accept it.
I think that Minecraft is good is a good example of how sandbox multiplayer games and up stable. Public servers require extreme moderation and regular rollbacks because of griefer, and action is taken to give players plots where only they have building rights. However on a private server you can play a full multiplayer sandbox with no limitations. It's the "massive" parr of mmo sandboxed that kills it for me. It's good an all that I can do anything, but there's a limit to how many players there can be before the environment goes degenerate
Well made and constantly updated theme park design definitely seems to be the approach that is more likely to create a long lasting experience as it allows for a lot more positive interaction for a much larger amount of people, while sandbox design CAN work really well in the shorter term (and in the case of a game like Minecraft, which of course isn't an MMO, has allowed for it to keep thriving for longer than many theme park type games), but in an MMO is much more likely to result in a short lived experience as there's just no reason to play if the game has no content outside of other players who will eventually move on anyway, especially as a majority of those games have either intentionally or unintentionally created somewhat unwelcoming and potentially toxic fanbases who make newer players feel unwelcome. I'd honestly say my preference has to fall on the side of theme park MMOs, but I absolutely love it when those games also integrate smaller elements which could be described as more "sandbox" such as housing systems where you can entirely customise your own little plot of land as it lets the game stay fresh with bursts of new content while also giving a chance to get creative and build a somewhat unique experience for each player.
In LOTRO, you feel like a part of an epic.
In FFXIV every job you play feels like partaking in a long tradition, and you and every player are (for the most part) perfectly integrated into the world.
In WoW, you felt like a part of the world built by Blizzard, and discovering it was awe.inspiring.
In EverQuest P99, you truly ARE an adventurer thrust into an unforgiving (sandboxy) world.
And what do most open world sandbox MMOs give you? You get thrust into the world and will get stressed by the constant threat of some people zerging you using some exploit, get called a "carebear" by even suggesting to the devs to alleviate the stress-level, and the only way to opt out is to not play. Oh and the only "immersion" you get is to pretend zerging takes skill.
theme box! no, wait. sandpark!
...I guess, for me, it depends on too many variables, so I may favor one today; the other tomorrow. I can't even tell off the top of my head which of the two styles I tend to prefer more often.
That is why I like when you have a lot of sets merged together with ton of instruction materials as ideas to build.
It is fun to do something new with inspiration of something that you know you can actually do.
people hated theme-park MMOs before sandbox MMOs were even a thing though...
I always thought "theme-park" was more MMOs that push you through sections of a game that have a general theme, with no real branching choices of where to go, everywhere you can level up is usually close by, almost never a reason to go backwards, until you're stuck at end-game at the end-game town and the rest of the world is empty except for newer players.
Sandboxes will always hold a special place in my heart, definitely my favorite.
I can't take a bumper car on a rollercoaster or build a rollercoaster track through the bumpercar area? Naive Josh, I got hacks for my rollercoaster tycoon.
Have you ever covered Black Desert Online? I find it approaches the genre in a really interesting way, having no fast travel at all, making good horses and boats the most valuable currency in the entire game.
Don't mean to be rude but you sound like you haven't really fed into the beast that is BDO. Horses have value to an extent but you only really need drift instant accel for efficient movement and thats not that expensive to get especially with how easy it is to make money now. The main way to make money in BDO is grinding as efficiently as possible with maxed pets, tent, a few inv and weight upgrades and maids. Life skilling also has a few ways to make tons of money semi actively or actively.
I love creating my own stuff,
I love designing and making changes to a game world.
BUt i will never again touch a sandbox mmo. I dont trust the vast majority of players, i absolutly HATE some cnt just come around and ruin what i have worked on, it's making me furious.
I do think there is a market for games in the middle. I dont need to be able to build the mellenial falcon with the house building system but I do want to decide where my house and craftingtabgles should be. I Do want a well designed dungeon with a story but I want to find it myself and not through a questline. The elderscrolls games (not the mmo) I think has the best mix of sandbox/exploration with a curated liniar experience. Hard to implement with multiplayer though. Valheim probably has the best formula with optional multiplayer. Hop on a big server with random players or start your own with some friends.
I'm here for the mug shot and I'll stay for the video.
Great vid as always, but i was hoping you'd talk more about the spectrum, how some games lean toward one or the other and how they turn out because of that
I definitely lean more sandbox, but I don't like a full sandbox like Mortal Online. My ideal game has a new player experience good enough to explain to the player what the tools and mechanics of the sandbox are, and what the main focus of the sandbox is, and then guides the player into the wilderness and helps them fly from the nest, so to speak. Crowfall is a good example of what I mean. Albion as well. Ashes looks to follow this example, to a bit lesser degree.
I would say Themepark is always higher quality, but given the proper chance sandbox could have a much higher ceiling, i believe sandbox games should not give total freedom but instead give quality tools, i always like to imagine a world of warcraft sandbox where your class actually matters, for example hunters have to hunt for food, etc, and where conflict could lead to factions wars where you cuould actually take over cities and trade routes, another example the horde takes over Ashevale and cut all the trees and turn it like Stonetalon Mountains, but the elves take over Felwood and restore it, probably im the only one but that sounds so good to me.
Isnt that like warcraft rts?
You're describing a theme park MMO.
The essence of a sand box is freedom. Limiting that freedom makes it a theme park.
what you describe is a mostly themepark.
In sandbox it is not "hunters have to hunt for food" but "food comes from hunting".
about the "take city" we can find similar thing in some theme park, territory controll is not specific to sandbox.
"Total freedom" is the way sandbox goes, the problem with this is people abusing and have no care about the fun of others players. For some guild, the "win" is when their ennemies surrender and... leave... the game.
but there is solution to this, include mechanics that make the bad behaviour more risky, or increase cost. "you kill any PJ you see even low level ? ok no problem, but be ready to lose your stuff if you die. oh and you did so much time that now, all people can see where you are on the map, and they will be happy to kill you and take your stuff for them"
Don't forbid thing, just make those thing costfull/painfull
@@kristofferaribal7514 Not really. Sandbox doesn't mean endless freedom but a lot and also systems that work with each other.
Sounds good to you until you remember that servers are unbalanced faction wise and 1 faction will dominate the other one. So you could potentially wipe out the faction :D
Josh Strife Hayes..... The MMO Prophet...... He shall bring our beloved era back....We stand with you.
Star Wars Galaxies was probably my favourite sandbox style mmo when I played it. They did have some theme park parts where you could go to a place and do some scripted confined quest lines, but for the most part, it was all sandbox. That being said, I think I do have the most fun with theme park styled mmo's now.
Right? Like you would have your favorite out of the way hunting spot and one day you show up and there is a whole player built town in that spot now. Yeah, your secret hunting ground is no longer a secret but the emergent gameplay was amazing.
Thats why I love theme park MMOs that have housing etc. in them. The gameplay doesn't get ruined by other players, but there is still an opportunity to create something unique that you can share with others. I remember Wildstar had a really good housing system with lots of freedom where and how you place something like full 3d movement, changing size and even color to a degree. And in Star Wars The Old Republic you can own huge areas with lots of space to place whatever you want and even some hidden secrets to explore. You can basically create your own main hub for you and your friends to come to when you need a vendor/storage/marketplace. Star Wars The Old Republic also has a very good storyline which is something you can't really get in sandbox games.
The most extreme sandbox MMO is 2B2T.
? Whats that?
@@josephteller9715 The oldest anarchy server in Minecraft
Found the fitmc viewers
@@theknightwhosaysni6318 i read that with FitMC voice
@@josephteller9715 Hell. There's no other way to describe it
Albion Online isnt really a sandbox. Its can use "Sandbox" MMO because the studio itself is called "Sandbox Interactive"
Albion online is a shitehole for whales and guilds
It's sandbox
@@BL00DYBUTTC0UGH how?
Sandpark.
It's a sadbox
Choice paralysis. When there is so much choices, you can't choose anything. Not to mention, sandbox require creativity, and most people aren't really that into creation. Most people would rather play a game to have fun as soon as possible rather than think how to make something so that it is fun. I mean, it's amazing to see player made structures in minecraft, but most players probably just stick to 5 x 5 x 5 houses. Theme park wins on practicality, Sandbox wins on possibilities (positive or negative).
While I don't see myself playing it, I really like Crowfall's pitch of PvP sandboxes with a "duration" and then rewards that feed into meta-progression that exists outside of those sandboxes. It's an interesting solution to the problem of "sandboxes are at their best when they're brand-new," and I hope it plays out well in practice.
I smile every time he mentions the font size
The problem with Sandboxes is that most of the time "sandbox" simply means "we didn't have money to make actual content", so you get a game that isn't mechanically much deeper than a theme park, and simply has nothing for players to do. The only sandbox with the level of work put into it equivalent to a decent theme park that comes to mind is EVE...
And from what I understand that still has the classic sandbox issue of new players having a hard time getting into the game
BDO is much like EVE, and much prettier (less of an excel spreadsheet) at that. A plethora of systems, a sea of content, generate revenue, get geared, build an empire, whatever you feel like. Better yet, in BDO you don't just lose a 10 billion ISK ship because you got ganked on a 6v1.
@@SoftExo wtf BDO has no content, just mindless mob grind, gambling your items to upgrade it and afk lifeskilling
@@goncalolobo2450 hardly, infact i don't even remember the last time i grinded any spot. Never gambled anything either, hate the upgrade system, thats just as optional as the first, buy the TET or whatever you lookin at off the market. If i wanna be as reductive as that, i can sit here and claim EVE is just staring at rocks for 14 hours a day while you mine, on both your main and like 4 or 5 alts. They're solid sandbox games regardless.
@@goncalolobo2450 BDO has lots of content. However close to no content when it comes to PVE which is.....not good for an MMO imo.
Their rng upgrading is ass tho and the fact you will get murdered in sub 2 seconds when you 'dare' to intrude upon good grinding spots with no alternative pve is what drove me away.
I can only think of one example of both being combined, and it's Mabinogi, with it's classless system that let's you mix and match skills and even create music and play it in game with different instruments, semi-random dungeons and areas that actively need to be explored and searched for hidden things and don't stay the same, yet it also contains JRPG levels of story and sidequests, I'm sure I'm not doing the game any service with this description it's not something I'm good at but I'd be interested to hear your opinion on it.
I like a theme park when I just want a more casual game. I like sandbox too. I think a mix of both would be kind of interesting too. For example I have an OSRS account that has the lowest health level it can. I am constantly looking for mechanics that come from items or effects that were obtained during quests or from minigame rewards. I feel like allowing some items to work outside of the area they were designed for in a game like Runescape can lead to some interesting things being made possible provided it doesn't break the game of course.
Theme parks over sandboxes any day...Damn you, Billy, pissing on my sandcastle when we were 4, 28 years ago...where was I...oh yes...I like the term theme park in general but as a game...sandbox, in which I will create a theme park.
I see all the points, but I also think there's a lot of middle ground, or at least pseudo-middle ground (that is, not really a middle ground but looks enough like it). When a theme park gets big enough, the rides don't always feel like rides. And even if they do, there's often something else to go on them again for. It's more like an arcade to me - I can expect a certain experience, but might get a special ticket for something, or I need enough tickets to get a different prize.
Going from place to place doesn't have to feel like just going from ride to ride, either. Plenty of actual theme parks add interactivity. It's still pre-made, but finding secrets or just enjoying the view can absolutely be part of the fun. Treasure maps, hunts for rare monsters, and such can add more options to the overworld, and subzones (like Eureka and Bozja from FFXIV) can have an overworld feel but with a certain added level of interactivity - still not a sandbox, but prepping NMs or Skirmishes is a choice to make, and something players have to engage in.
There's also the question of elements of pseudo-sandbox in an MMO. Player Housing may not allow you create a whole dungeon, but you could create, say, a jumping puzzle, or a themed experience for others to enjoy.
Even with being a long time MMO player with an understanding of sandbox vs theme park this thoughtful analysis and explanation was really enjoyable. I have always enjoyed theme parks more. WoW to me is an interesting case. I felt in 2004 with vanilla the experience was less guided and was a theme park with some sandbox open elements there. It is likely looking back on the experience through a lens of nostalgia to a time when the players were inexperienced and did not know what we were doing that made it feel more like it had sandbox elements.
I freely admit that I shed a nostalgic tear when the footage of Defiance was playing. Holy hell, that game had so much potential! By all rights that should've been Destiny before Destiny.
Plus the show it was based on was kinda cool.
Videos keep getting better and better 🤟
I recon I'm a Theme Park guy based on the MMOs I've played: EverQuest, World of Warcraft, DC Universe Online, Rift, Star Trek Online, Champions Online, Planetside 2 (only during Beta) and now Elder Scrolls Online.
Since I'm also an Altoholic and thus do a lot of "Horizontal Progression" I tend to play a lot of the same areas in an MMO multiple times, but for me it hardly ever gets boring.
I like hybrids of the two. A game with structure but not structure you need to follow and enough freedom to let you do whatever you want where you want. Star Citizen is aiming for this and what we see so far is pretty amazing. There are missions you can do with quest markers and specific objectives and at the same time plenty of room to take pretty much any item anywhere with any combination of ships and weapons with any number of players and make your own fun. This is how I entered huge 50 player PVP fights almost daily through 2019 and now join tons of large events from races to death match battles to fashion shows. I even saw a dude RPing as a bar tender in one of the bars handing out drinks to players and using VOIP to take orders.
All that said my favorite MMO is Guild Wars 2 which is a pretty non linear theme park MMO. I had always thought it was pretty sandboxy as there is no real direction and you can tackle anything at pretty much any time in any order. Your objectives and goals are your own and there are so many ways to accomplish whatever you want from general exploration and world events to structured PVE in dungeons and raids and even all the way to structured small scale PVP and very unstructured massive PVP. I guess its not totally a sandbox but the progression feels kind of sand boxy as the game does not give direction and your enjoyment is totally on you to find what is fun. A lot of games will tell you what to do to have fun and progress and I find these kinds of game a little boring as sometimes I don't want to do these things. This is why I quit WOW, I don't like dungeons and raids but that is really the only way to progress the character outside of PVP and WOWs PVP is kind of a joke.
sandboxes are just the ultimate form of themparks
"You can't add ghosts to the haunted house."
Yes you can. You just need to play with others.
Great video, If I could make a suggestion, When using clips of games, Have something either on the clip or in the description to say what the game is. If its one you covered on your worst MMO series then a link to it, I would enjoy this a lot as a newer viewer of your channel. :)
While not an MMO, Stardew valley is a good example of a semi-hybrid approach. You get some sandbox freedom while enjoying some theme park content. I do believe you can have a hybrid approach and this could offer the best of both worlds for some future mmos.
What's the game that starts from 2:00 the 3rd person shooter. It looks familiar and I can't remember it's name and it's doing my head in. xD
Defiance 2050
@@JoshStrifeHayes ahh that was it! I remember playing it a long time ago but it's shut down now.
I would prefer if MMOS were like Theme parks with occasional Sandbox elements .
Like lets throw a turtle with a mountain on its back walking on the outskirts of a town.
the developers would ask the community how they would interact with this entity and poll popular suggestions- lets say killing it with a canon wins over Capturing it or even scaling it with Grappling hooks (theres even submitted designs on the forums).
several side quests pop up that requires wood ,gun powder, metals to be gathered, maybe some NPCs want to study it and hype up the players, ETC.
Then next update comes around and theres a cutscene of the community built cannon killing the entity , now theres a new explorable area the mountain on the turtles back with new enemies and resources a new theme park.
I was 30 minutes late to the premier... this is what I get for trying to BAKE COOKIES!!!
That was a very well articulated "ni," well done. Also, sorry you missed the premier, though it was for a worthy cause.
Josh: "curated experience."
Video: rushing Prae
Me:lol
In my experience, sandbox MMOs tend to be more heavy handed with the monetisation. Cash shop inventory upgrades, deeds to own on land, materials you need to build things, almost anything to do with player housing... All the cool customisation stuff tends to be locked off by a pay wall or with ridiculous grinding.
2:25 what mmo is that? It looks like lineage 2 revolution for mobile but with pc bindings and performance
then there are the cases where you do get away with taking the laser guns outside the arena, and it works and players have fun, and then devs swoop in and cancel the fun.
like you previously mentioned in other video:
people want to feel comfort and familiar which is one of reason why lot of people love themepark game despite repetition/limitation. not saying it is bad things though. like you said, everything has pro and cons.
Where does this leave games like Everquest, Pantheon, and Ashes of Creation?
While I love the idea of sandboxes, I think it's just seen as too risky by the people that could pull it off and too ambitious to be pulled off by the rest.
You can see this in procedurally generated content. If you don't put enough effort into it (often thinking that it's a shortcut to more content without lower quality) then you'll get quests that people can tell are procedural, the fewer variables they have the quicker someone can tell what those are.
For example, two variables gets you quests like "Go here, kill this" or "Kill this, X times" and at best you have something like "Go here, clear out this camp/cave/dungeon" but then clearing out the same places feels the same, and feels unimportant if that doesn't actually clear out the place.
But if you keep adding to it you can get something more dynamic, "Go here, Kill these things, save this thing/bring back this item, do it in this time frame, if you're late aspects change, this guy might betray you, the things you are sent to kill might be misunderstood and don't need to be killed, this quest serves a purpose (such as strengthens a faction/weakens another faction/opens a trade route/gets you closer to find some artifact/raises your reputation)" with more variables it becomes harder to pick out what they are made up and makes them feel more like a part of the world with some propose that isn't just grinding: the quest.
Though all this really only appeals to people that want unique adventures instead of the them park "YOU ARE THE HERO OF THE REALM AND OUR ONLY HOPE." Where you aren't treading new ground, you aren't finding something new or learning about a character that you can't just look up on the wiki.
Another appeal is that if you can do a sandbox MMO good enough (enough player driven events and NPCs knowing how to react to things) you can have a living world where towns get raided or destroyed, new towns get made and factions wax and wane in power in real time as the players within either try to stay out of the danger of these large events or find ways to shape them how they want, such as becoming a high-ranking player in a guild or faction that has say in these things, or even building up your own power to stand on your own, even if you won't be able to do as much as a whole faction you will still make a mark that is completely your own.
Again, harder to do and doesn't have the advantage of reusing most content for all players, so it's risky to make. We'll just have to wait for technology to advance to the point it becomes easy enough to be done that it isn't too much of a risk or that it can be made by those that are willing to take the risk, either that or we get AI that are advanced enough to create quests on the fly and manage dynamic story lines all over the place.
I think Runescape's model is my favorite in this argument: the devs make skills and quests *feel* like sandbox because you discover them seemingly naturally. But it isn't sandbox, every piece of content in the game is hand-made. Even life skills, which are theoretically survival elements, are crafted by a dev, with items made for every milestone. Its all theme park.
Except the GE, the economy is purely player-made, and there are emergent stories throughout.
Basically, the theme park rides are are pre-built, but you choose when to experience what ride, but, there is a big pile of sand in the corner.
It's still a sandbox mmo forsure tho. The easiest way to tell the difference is to look at the zones or areas. Varrock is still useful to a level 3 as it is 126. Whereas in WoW Elwynn Forest is really a level 5-10 area forever. The former being sandbox, the latter being themepark.
most if not all oldschool mmorpgs pre-WoW are sandboxes.
and questing doesnt make a sandbox game a themepark
for me sandbox will always scream "we're too lazy to do our shit so do our shit for us but don't forget to pay", plus the inherent "freedom" of choice and influence a player can have (make or break) can easily ruin someone else's hard work, the only exception I found on this rule is EVE Online
Oh yeah, often "player driven content" can just be them saying "do our work" but for that to work there needs enough of a foundation for players do shape the world and stop trouble makers that can do a lot of damage because they either can respawn easy or don't care about losing some work to make someone else lose even more work.
Considering how many theme park MMOs are creatively bankrupt WoW clones, I think it's OK for players to give something else a shot rather than more of the same.
@@cattysplat I think it's more that it's a less risky and better explored way (theme park) of making an MMO so you'll see plenty of uninspired MMOs using it. Like Unity, it's a a good an easy platform to make games with, but since it's easier to use, more trash ends up made in unity (also because of the water mark that only shows up for smaller (no-low profit) games).
look up haven and hearth i think you'll be pleasantly surprised.
It really just completely depends how you implemented it. The only good implementations i have seen so far are, eve online, haven and hearth and ultima online.
@@Dimitri88888888 Oh man I haven't looked at haven and hearth in such a long time, I should really check back on it. I can't remember the development situation of it, are they still adding on to the game?
What about theme park with rides and sandboxed areas? E.g. imagine an actual sandbox area inside a theme park for the kids to play with. Anything goes in terms of player design but only in that area…
That's basically two different games at that point. Developing mechanics and support systems needed in a sandbox is a massive undertaking, and very little of that can be re-used in a theme park.
I've played far more themepark MMO's than openworld, but the one openworld game I played was much more memorable; Darkfall Online. Yes, the game itself wasn't too great. But the community and the world/mechanics that enabled large scale wars was something that could only experienced like that in that game. How many times in your lifetime will you have an MMO were there is a literal world war going on ingame involving over 5000+ players. Darkfall Online has a special place in my heart and will for always be an unforgetable experience.
I started liking sandboxes (UO), and now I only can stand a bit of theme parks from time to time.
Nothing can't compete with UO, sandbox or themepark. Open world pvp at his best, PVE was a bit redundant but there was so many places to go and the world was feeling so big.
Oh, I like that mug.... definitely going to go hunt one out for myself
What are good examples of hybrids between the two? And what are some awful examples?
SO i been playing FF14 as a former wow player and i gotta say i've never spent so little time in menu's in a mmorpg. it's kinda weird that's what i been thinking about i'm playing more outside of menu's no talent tree no menu systems no tables to messure just pick class play i think equment menu's have been used less cause i can auto equpe faster.
Final Fantasy XI actually does a little bit of both. Conquest, Besieged, Campaign, and Colonization are each their own closed sandbox systems, usually with different factions vying for power from moment to moment, and a big update based on the results of that struggle at the end of each Earth week. Also, the very nature of a shared overworld makes it very possible to walk through an area shortly after somebody slaughtered all the monsters on your path, leaving you with an empty path until they start respawning. Even today, all it takes is one fool walking behind Mireu to make an entire server angry at them for triggering its devastating AoE Spike Flail. That said, there is also decidedly partitioned content players can experience individually. Mission (story) content, obviously, but also certain quests, battlefield fights, and gameplay systems such as Ambuscade, Assault, the reworked Dynamis, and Omen.
For our part, all FFXI players particularly seem to care about is whether a system is worth putting the time into it or not.
Rollercoaster bumper cars sounds pretty cool. Let's do it.
What were those games you showed ?
I recognized a few like mortal online and ff14 but there were some that I never seen
What if a dungeon boss had more than one type of fight mechanics. Instead of the same old thing. It could be tied to how the dungeon was cleared to the boss or just random. Hell even have it where the boss could enter some rooms of the dungeon if something happens. That would be one hell of a shake up. POE did that in last season, Brutus was not in his spawn room, he was on the way to his room that never had any mobs.
"You can't build a roller coaster through a bumper car area"
**Lets Game It Out has entered the chat
Eve Online is pretty much a mix. You can join a massive faction and compete for dominance in nul sec, and you can manufacture and trade anywhere, true. But you can also play for years as a high-sec adventurer running missions for the various NPC factions and getting rewards strictly in high sec (where other players can't gank you without suffering significant penalties.) So I would say that Eve Online is the perfect example of a mix that works, because you have the freedom to play both theme park and sandbox both, to whatever degree you prefer. (Speaking as a former high sec dual boxing tengu carebear myself :) )
What if i wipe my group in the Hauntedhouse doesnt that add ghosts to it ?
I like my MMOs as a theme park. Funny you should bring up Guild Wars 2 though; it has some interesting compromises. Dynamic events help keep the open world from being stale, and each of the heart 'quests' have multiple objectives, so any 2 players could have completed it differently. WvW mixes it up a bit with fixed fort locations but destructible walls and player buildable upgrades and siege weapons - any time you enter, the zones could be controlled by different worlds, varying your available targets and priorities. There could be a player commander rallying the other players to take over zones, or just a scattered collection of roamers trying to defend and pick off stragglers. Good discussion though.
Gonna crack a cold one and listen this while i level my undead rogue. You are a lovely man, josh
ded game fam
@@jonathansoko1085 Not dead while he enjoys it.
@@BionicmanJCD ded game fammo
@@jonathansoko1085 how is it dead? Your soul is dead
@@ElevatedLevetator games ded famalam
Sandbox was fun when I was a young creator with time.
Themepark is what I love most because I am now a creator with a fulltime job.