these are the types of games where veteran players gang up on new players and make their lives miserable and then wonder why their game isn't more popular
@@destroyerofworldsnamedchan577 my last run on BDO I encountered griefers very little, it really let me engage with the PvE without interruption and realize there is very little PvE content diversity and a stupid high amount of grinding.
ive found in my time that a not insignificant part of gamers dont enjoy a fair competition, they enjoy winning, no matter how unfair and they absolutely hate losing like nothing else. its the people that smurf in LoL, that use aimbot in CS, that kill low levels in WoW and that switch factions to the one thats always winning. These people thrive in hardcore mmos and imo make a significant portion of the playerbase. they always say its about the thrill and risk but in reality they just want to always win and risk nothing. wheres the risk when roaming around with 10 max level players ganking lone people leveling? its zero, they want non of the risk while being rewarded for what can only be called griefing. these type of people will always be in hardcore mmos and they are the reason no matter how perfect, your hardcore mmo will always fail.
Even more evidence, the "risk" these players tend to take is even reduced when they go on "naked" ganking runs where they can't even lose any (valuable) gear. Which they can only do due to a combination of high character stats and sheer group size.
It's the brutal reality of human existence. People forget we used to be barbarians and that meant raiding the weaker neighbor tribes and its why manifest destiny of the Americas was inevitable. Whenever a human group gets an edge on other humans someone within the advantaged group will eventually use it to abuse/exploit. It's why Rust is a beautiful brutal game exposing these people openly for what they are. The difference is in video games you should honestly pity these people. They have nothing in their lives besides the games they dumped hours into in order to be the temporary big man on campus. They play because of a crippling insecurity and not for fun or genuine enjoyment. I know it because that was my crew on Arma2/Rust/Ark. We didn't cheat but we could just put more hours into the game than almost anyone else on the servers. The truth is it was fun, for a time, but eventually you're supposed to get bored and after a few wipes move on. The cheaters your lumping in with the try hards almost never do, they just keep on doing it over and over again and again until they fall apart irl. I fully admit I had fun killing entire Arma2-Dayz, Rust, and Ark servers. But school/job/GF and irl responsibilities are supposed to put an end to that phase. For some people those responsibilities never come into their lives.
@@fightingfortruth9806 “carebear world”? You are the type of guy who thinks that ganking noobs with ten buddies is a “fair and good strategy” but then whines on forums when those noobs gank you while you afk to watch Pornhub. Also MMOs meant to go for VERY long time, otherwise its just a waste of developing time.
@@fightingfortruth9806 Are you fucking serious? The point is that no one will want to play the game anymore. There are not true "winners" due to the complete lack of real competition and very real presence of unfairness and frustration. The player count dwindles, and you hypersweat neckbeards lose all your low level fodder to gank. You're basically ruining the game for anyone else who might want to pick it up and play it due to being a selfish, unhygienic greasemaster afraid of being challenged.
Remember New World's alpha test?When they basically changed the entire game after most of the player base ignored all of the content and just went seal clubbing in the starting area? Remember all the whining in the forums? Yeah, most of the "hardcore pvp" crowd doesn't want fair matches. They want to get a kick out of stomping n00bs. That's all.
The hardcore pvp audience wants to do a few things. They want to annoy people, they want to grief people and they want to torment people who are just trying to chop a tree down.
This also goes to the CoD community as well. There is so much whining and crying over skill based match making, "I dont want to have to sweat every round!" What they mean to say is "I want to stomp people who are worse than me so I dont have to try".
They do that out of frustration of never getting good at PvP game. This is the only way they can "defeat" another player. It's similar to when a kid shoots up a school, in their little head they think they are the alpha all of sudden even though they brought a gun while nobody else did.
Ultimately, the real problem(imo) is that these games are specifically catered to people who want that power gap, and that's why these games will continue being made exactly the same way, even as each one rapidly fails and then fades into obscurity. Whales will shell out massive cash to be arbitrarily superior, and game companies love a good whale.
They're deliberately designed as bullying simulators, and targeted at people who have no interest in stopping bullying, they just dream of *becoming* the bully.
4:05 Don't give them this. 99% of imbalanced MMO pvp enjoyers don't ever want to be the underdog who wins. They want to be the one with the stacked deck stomping on the underdog.
To be fair, military doctrine isn't about a fair fight, but defeating an enemy. "Overwhelming Force" is wrapped around the very idea of the unfair fight. One side stacks up so many soldiers and numbers of equipment, so that two things happen: 1. Assured victory. 2. Minimizing loss and casualties through a drawn out engagement. I know MMOs are games, but Games Theory and War Gaming (what the military does) is about simulating how you can defeat an opponent with minimal loss or threat to your own assets. Having a level 50 stomp a lvl 20 in an open world pvp encounter reflects this. Most of it in MMOs are based on egos and insecurity, but then again, so is military conflicts in the real world. lol
@@swordmonkey6635 once again, your absolute candor in open forum is appreciated. sadly, the views shown are not those welcomed by most of any sandbox game's player base - a base which is dwindling with every passing year owing largely to devs who share your freely-given opinions. as you inferred: game theory isn't fair. it also isn't balanced, and it most certainly isn't enjoyable for the majority of participants. meaning that: as games are a form of entertainment, games with a form of unfettered PVP fail to be entertaining for the vast majority of actual or potential players. fortunately for you, games with such PVP will always be lucrative as they attract and hold those sad and broken failures who depend on it as their only means of communication and self-actualization.
@@swordmonkey6635 pretty sure people don't want to be constantly ganked by high level players because "it's a good idea from a military stand point". It's a video game, it's meant to be fun, not realistic.
I think an even deeper problem is that when you have a persistent game the only way to really "win" is to drive the opposition out of the game completely. You basically wind up with a system that rewards you for making the game as un-fun as possible for your opponents.
Basically. Unless literally everyone goes completely against the game's systems and whatnot and goes by some dubious honour system to only have large scale battles and balance each other out properly and be honourable and whatnot can such a game thrive... and as you notice, I just described instanced, arena-style pvp, not a "hardcore pvp" mmo.
Idk if that's necessarily a problem. Fighting games are peak competition, and when someone is winning in a fighting game their opponent literally doesn't get to play. Same with league, once a team catches a lead the snowball effect begins. In fact, I'd even say it's a staple of good pvp that one side makes the game less fun for the other.
For certain people who say that those who dislike unfair PvP ganking can’t handle “real life”, let me just say that in real life, few can get away with the sort of toxicity I’ve seen in these MMOs and the internet.
Real life is 100% pay2win anyway, with insanely overpowered spawn points for the few lucky ones. Of course these PvP obsessed nutjobs fantasize about being the rich CEO who gets to make life miserable for everyone below them.
You see that kind of toxicity everywhere. I played World of Tanks for a while and literally left because the community was so toxic. Not because of the game, the community. So sorry, disagree with you there.
That's the thing, no consequences, that's why I give games brownie points for adding consequences for those types of players. And that's why I argue that there IS a good way to play and bad way to play a game, If not, then the victims of griefers would like to have a word with you.
I quite like it when they have a separate walled-off open pvp zone. Completely optional, but sometimes it's nice to check if your over-leveled, over-geared character really is more powerful than other characters. But you are choosing to go in there, and can easily avoid it if you're not interested.
I'd add an emphasis on "optionnal". Quite a few MMO had a separate zone with open PVP, but full pve players had to go in there because that's where all the fun stuff (or the high level things to do) were placed. No, it's not optionnal anymore. I hate when MMOs do that.
I really like how Lineage 2 handled the problem, PVP is open everywhere except in towns but if a player you attack does not respond back and you still kill them you get flagged with karma, the more people you kill this way the more karma you get per kill and you can only remove it via quests and killing monsters. A player with karma will be attacked by town guards, if other players attack them they don't get pvp flagged themselves and if a player with karma dies they can loose items. The game essentially marks these players as kriminals and makes hunting them a free for all activity with potential really expensive loot. That system being in place drives people towards doing actual pvp via clans and clan wars but still opens up the possibility of mutually accepted duels or being a dipshit and getting actually treated as dipshit for doing it. It kind of creates this passive flow of gear from folks that have enough money to risk doing the player killing to people that need gear and can get it by ganging up on the killer.
@@GreatGodSajuuk not to mention that system created unique challenges and hurdles for said dicks which was fun in its oen right. There was a bounty forum which you could pay high level clans for the persons ear (proof of kill) You had whole PvP clans with patzies and town runners for supplies. You had some PvP clans powerful enough to raid towns for fun. Yet it was so risky and costly for those attacking the town it was decently rare. If you could live with the consequences, it was a great challenge. A good PvP system for dicks.
@@GreatGodSajuuk Also loved the fact you could get special weapons dropped if you PK which got stronger and stronger with more kills. Even though I really dont like open world PVP actually made me like it in L2... We were a small clan, yet we banded together with some other people to take down a PKer with the dual weapon to make sure he doesnt keep killing everyone.
The concept of Josh and his videos is low key funny. We got a very poise, dare I say almost elegant, man holding his mug very respectfully and very eloquently explaining why stuff is bad. It just works .
Josh hit the nail on the head here; PvP MMORPGs don't match you with equal skill level. In fact, most PvP-focused players in these games prey on the newbies and people who don't want to PvP. Then their ego inflates thinking they are awesome when in reality they just killed people who A) Don't want to PvP, B) Aren't equipped for PvP, C) Usually don't even fight back because they just want to harvest that sunflower for their potion. But the PvP "leet" mentality is that they are now a god among men because they killed someone who didn't even fight back.
@@Leetfaction rofl.. the difference with hardcore pvp and wilderness is that the wilderness is *optional*, no one's forcing you to enter a pvp zone, thats your choice, the wilderness aint safe, bud.
@@Hero-oz9gx I find it funny how any criticism of the current state of the wilderness is always met with responses like, "Don't like it? Don't participate. Wildy ain't safe, bud. Git gud." Just because it's optional, doesn't mean it's free from criticism. The wilderness is incredibly flawed. I shouldn't need to explain to you why things like singles clans, pjing, boxing and skull tricking are all ridiculous mechanics that kill the true spirit of what the wilderness is supposed to be. Also, nobody is advocating for the wilderness being safe by the way. That's just a strawman.
I never thought of it before, but Hardcore PVP MMO's are kinda' a lot like the real world. I now understand their appeal for a lot of people; basically in the game they get to be the 1% that they could never be in their mundane lives where they're like the newbie who entered a situation where everything was already divided up and the outcome was pretty much already determined.
The distinction is what matters to you more: winning or competition And some people do not want a fair fight. They only want to win. Bastardized Reiner Knizia quote about board games: "The point of the game is to have fun. The objective is to win. The two should never be confused."
its also brutal to new player when there is open PVP. In theory a level 60 character has no reason to PK a level 5. They gain nothing from this as it is not a test of skill and there is no reward to gain BUT typically the high level players will regularly kill the low level players, over and over and over again just to be dicks. For the new player who this happens to the outcome is normally they quit in frustration. I remember that WoW use to have quite a few pvp servers back in the day but as the players gained in power on those servers they kept bashing the low level players constantly. After a while the servers started to empty as these players who kept getting bashed just moved onto PVE servers. Now there are no pvp servers, instead there is a 'war mode' that you can flag yourself with that most people just ignore. In almost every scenario where you allow players to regulate pvp among themselves and do a 'all levels' pvp it almost always turns out this way because for the higher levels its just 'fun' to watch lower levels struggle.
Pretty sure that's actually what killed the game, Blizz bending to the will of the carebears. PVP servers are by far the most popular on classic for good reason. I appreciate all the points above but one thing I always thought countered this in WoW in particular was that a lvl 60 off ganking usually started some form of conflict. People seem to think they should always have a chance but I disagree. What I always found far more engaging was either ganking or getting ganked, telling some friends, get them to get some payback, then they get some friends and suddenly you've got raid groups going in STV. Most fun I ever had in that game was open world pvp raiding.
@@juninplays8742 I agree, the old school style PVP made people interact with their servers, we knew each other by name, I miss the old tarrens mill endless stand off battles lol... People wouldn't just be running through the world ofp... People would make a lot of friends helping strangers fend of a ganker and stuff, good times, I'm a old school shadowbane player though, people seem to want to play mmo also like a solo game with other people around, I like when mmo's make people organize... I've played way too many mmo's in the last few years where I had literally no reason to speak to anyone like eso lol... To each his own but open PVP servers should always be an option, not the rule but an option...nothing wrong with pve, but there's nothing like a PVP server, in any game, ya'll scared of the big guilds and corps? Im trying to figure out how to take them Down, like I said though, to each its own.
@@taurusironcloud9397 Yeah I think the advantage of PVP servers is that unlike the very controlled situations in PVP battlegrounds or arenas, open-world PVP is a lot more natural; back when I played WoW, my best times were playing alliance on a PVP server with an 80%+ Horde population since it meant every Alliance player either knew each other or knew someone who knew them - it also meant every Alliance player had been through the pain of getting stomped by a max level character while they levelled and was far more likely to jump in when they saw someone else in trouble. Also, I'd estimate around 85-90% of the alliance playerbase all had PVP gear on standby, so we really were the underdogs -able to punch well above our weight whenever the Horde side pushed their luck e.g. I remember a Horde guild called the 'Red Horde Chilli Peppers' who bought over 200 players to a raid on Stormwind, only be to repulsed by around 70-80 Alliance players of various guilds who quickly co-ordinated, strategised and wiped our the larger yet less well equipped/less skilled Horde guild. I was one of those 70-80 players, and it's a memory that clearly sticks with me far more than any battleground or match of LoL/CoD/Halo.
This is a cold take. PVP servers in WoW were the more popular ones. In classic they generated actual conflict. It also didn't really hurt all that much to die. You still kept your gear. Contested zones were always known to be alliance or horde favored so you knew where to go. This isn't the same
I believe one of the most important aspects, which you didn't go into detail too much, is that sometimes the "gap" between the experienced player and the newcomer can become so big, that it becomes virtually unreachable. This is especially true for fast paced PvP fights that can end in only a few seconds if you don't know what you're doing. And this leads to one major issue: Being unable to learn from your mistakes and improve. Even if you're playing against an opponent who is much more skilled than you are, usually you can at least still get some experience. Learn what you did wrong, study what the opponent is doing, grit your teeth and push through. It sucks, and it won't be enjoyable for most people, but the point is there is still a chance to recover. But once the gap reached a critical mass so to speak, you're unable to learn anything. Because well, the match will be over before you even got the chance to do anything. You can't adapt to your opponents skill, you can't figure out what works best for you, you can't learn your good / bad matchups, nothing. Because you'll be dead within less than 10 seconds. So if you still want to improve, you'll have to sit through hours of guides, listening to people telling you what you're supposed to do, just to get a vague idea on what will increase your odds at winning. The moment I'll have to spend more times watching guides and gathering knowledge from OUTSIDE the game about how to play the game, rather than by actually playing it, is the moment you lost me.
In ARK it is even better. You can make your opponent unconscious, but keep them alive. Their player has no escape form this except deleting their character and starting again.
This can happen with anything though and it does. Go look at Evo, how many new people do we see each year? Not many. One would say a fighting video game is the most equal opportunity there is and yet the pros all have hundreds, if not thousands of hours of practice on your average Joe. Josh brought up soul level in Dark Souls but soul level doesn't account for gear, you can have a low soul level but decked out in top of the line gear and go noob stomping, there are guides and build websites dedicated to this. Rainbow 6 seige, a very fair and competitive game is going to favor the veteran over the new player on map knowledge alone. PvP will never be completely equal. You have to just accept that if you want to play PvP games. Sometimes your going to get steam rolled, sometimes your going to run into a cheater. Sometimes it's not going to be fun.
@@Caralast If you are in Null like me then no, you do not see many newbies every year, but then few go out there into the dark, dark horrors of Null Sec!
@@Caralast Are you talking about EVO like a biggest fighting game turnament? There are actually new faces quite often. It's just the genre is unpopular and it's hard to be better than top 100 players you see on turnament. Yet you still see more underdogs and newcomers than in other games because anyone with great skill can attend EVO
You really help verbalize my feeling on wow arena. The beginning of an expansion is great because everyone is on the same playing field. But then it comes down to getting stomped by ppl ahead of the curve, or playing all the time to stay ahead of the curve.
Games go two ways, you either design for balance or you design for fun. WoW skirts a fine line and accomplishes neither particularly well as a result. They’re hands are tied.
But its not fun to face an enemy that has virtually no chance of winning. I feel lik arenas specifically should have stuck with the balanced stat table they brought in during WOD.
I found arena intensely boring. I loved battlegrounds. Battlegrounds you'd work with your team and there were more objectives than just 'don't die'. Arena is for the 'dueling outside Orgimarr' crowd. I had zero interest in that. I like co-op pvp but individual pvp is boring. I just don't care. I played some LoL (quit because the games are too long) and several first person shooter co-op games. So i'm not a carebear. I feel like very few people actually like arena. That 90% of the people are doing it only for the gear. I think it would be a wasteland if you could get as good or better pvp gear elsewhere.
I love world PvP in WoW. My second favorite is battlegrounds. I have played arena and had fun in it but I don't do arena anymore and only did it because you had to for the gear back then. I just wish WoW had a solo/duo ranked battleground queue. Random battlegrounds have no matchmaking so most games are lopsided and unfun (no matter which side you're on). If there was a way to queue for ranked while playing solo or with a friend that would be a lot better I think. Still not perfect, of course, but then at least you'd be far more likely to face people around your skill and gear level.
@@RavienGaming Okay, so I have not played WoW in an extremely long time, since like back in the original. I know pvp changed a lot since then, so keep in that mind when I say this. I really really hated the pvp in WoW. Basically because someone a few levels above you would always win. I remember wanting to get into the pvp but at the time it was a complete waste of time to even try pvp unless you were max level, and that really annoyed me.
I remember a time where I was revisiting an old MMO I played when I was a kid, and when I got to the part where the grinding needs to take place on a pvp map, I got camped. My total death count for that day alone was 52. Yeah pvp focused mmo is a nightmare for me
The dumb part is that it doesn't even work - players don't start engaging in PVP content because there is resources and loot there, they will go in minimum risk gear and then attempt to flee any PVP encounter while taking advantage of the loot and resources and be of no risk whatsoever to anybody who may try and kill them. I don't understand why they go to all this effort, especially when it becomes clear that the vast majority of their players hate PVP and avoid it at all costs. Surely the solution to "nobody wants to engage in PVP" isn't "force them into PVP areas where a minority of jerks will kill anybody and everybody they can".
You have to lose some to gain some. Pvp should be apart of everyones experience because of its effect on the world. You can thriwe if you choose to team up and defeat the ganker and quest on safely. People who give up and hide doesnt get the treasure naturally.
@@MaDmanex100 Ah yes, let's get 5 level ones with a total of 500 attack against the one veteran with 50,000 defense, 40 million hp and a weapon whose dmg number just says Atomizes your fucking soul. Get outta here dude.
I had this exact thing happen just last week. I'm getting back into mtg for the first time in almost a decade. After a fnm draft I got invited to try out the commander format by a bunch of the regulars. So I bought a preconstructed commander deck, sleeved it up and came in on commander night. First several games were with some of the people who had talked me into trying it, and were there when I bought my preconstructed deck at fnm. All running several hundred dollar or thousand+ dollar decks that pop off silly infinite mana or "everything I have is indestructible now" combos on turn
Spending 3 months building up my character and then stabbing you as soon as you walk out of the starting city. What isn't fair about that? It's all skill. There is nothing like the thrill of victory of killing someone who is trying to figure out what the buttons do.
As a designer, I can safely say that it hurts me when developers start a project with HC PVP in mind but have a load of other cool systems. Because what inevitably happens is those cool systems crumble to the pvp side of things. I was one of the early testers and promoters for Albion Online, specifically for its features like crafting and gathering. And with the design decisions they've made, that translate to "you're in a big group or you don't see late game". And because the bigger guilds hold all the power, and they pay the developers the most money, the developers cater to them, thus shoving out the people who played for those systems. It is really quite sad. Excellent video. Glad to have my feelings validated like that.
Yes, Albion is online and is dying due to a bias towards such hardcore pvp, with a lack of balance, and this is killing the game, making it online even smaller and niche, and also killing the economy of Albion, depriving peaceful players of the motivation to produce something when only Monopolists represented by large guilds, PvP guilds and gankers can earn an adequate amount of rewards using the Albion economy. This destroys competition between peaceful players and makes the economy unprofitable for poor players, thereby depriving the game of a huge number of players and due to the monopoly in the Albion economy - it is now dying, the premium price is growing endlessly, at the same time that low-tier resources, which have always been a source of income for a beginner at first - they are too cheap and this shows the lack of demand when most people leave the game. I’m already silent about the lack of balance between different types of weapons, as in wow, for example, and about situations when newcomers are simply quickly killed by older players who cannot be caught up and matched in power.
Are there any hardcore PvP MMO's that are able to survive long term? Every one that I've tried usually ends up dead because new players are constantly ganked by veteran players and they give up after being told "get gud" on the forums. You can't build a healthy player base when the mechanics are designed around benefiting a bunch of bullies.
Well whether you like it or not you have to get good, player killing you in a PvP environment doesn't make them a bully, that's just a pathetic excuse to be honest. There were some really toxic and bad designed like the ability yo spawned camp but most MMORPG have separate PvP areas, the learning curve has always been one of the hardest in any game genre, you are gonna die tons on your way to being good, that's just it there's no circumvent unless you're the type that enjoys pay to win system where you can just straight out buy advantages with real money to the point where that negate your inadequate skill levels.
@@Claude-Vanlalhruaia PvP where experienced players can regularly curb start new ones before they've even had the chance to learn the game much less gear up isn't good PvP and it never will be. In order for someone to have the chance to "get good" they have to have a fighting chance to begin with. Something that is impossible in games where progress is measured in months of work and gives a severe advantage to those who have played the longest. The "get good" argument is a lazy excuse that I regularly see bullies use to justify ruining the game for new players.
@@OmegaZyion If you have a problem with people that are already ahead of the curve then you are gonna have a lot of problems in real life as well and if this is your mentality on it, you are gonna have a terrible life, if I am to be perfectly honest. No one is gonna hold your hands and wait for you to catch up because the world doesn't revolved around you or your needs. They themselves have catchup to do, the people in the top needs to work constantly to keep their place. Its a brutal world where the weak are left behind. This is applicable to games as well as the people who are behind the virtual character are real people as well, it is especially true on pvp. It is not toxic nor bully, you are just weak minded, how many hours practicing, doing research, watching guides have you done before you quit? 2 hours? There are new and young players that are up and coming that have to climb a wall to play at the highest level not just in real life but in games, competitive games like esports. They have the advantage of time and youth while veterans have the experience but they fight against time. Maybe just maybe reflect on yourself first before you put all the blame on others.
@@Claude-Vanlalhruaia I go to video games to escape the real world, not to replicate it. Your point is not only insulting, but meaningless. I have to deal with enough crap in my real life to bother with the exact same shit while trying to unwind.
@@OmegaZyion Yeah, it might be insulting if you take it that way but nonetheless its the truth, you cannot really escape from truth, it will come back relentlessly and you have to face it one way or the other. And when you stand for yourself and face it even if you fall you build characters and the strength to get back up to face again but calling people "bully" when things don't go your way is a form of escapism that will have more harm to you in the long run. If you want to temporarily escape reality, want to unwind and have a time of your own on video games my advice is don't play competitive nature like pvp because the very nature of it demands you to be better than others, to be competitive, to sink hours into practice, learning with tons of defeat which you need to be able to deal with. While it is extremely rewarding and nice to be a state where you are above average or even at the top percent, almost everyone else will be on the loser side just like in real life. Play casual games or casual side of a game because they generally offers instant gratifications but at the cost of being addictive.
This is why I switched from PVP to PVE servers on WoW early on. I started on PVP thinking it would be the more hardcore, rewarding experience. In fact, very rarely were any of my PVP encounters fair at all. It was either me getting ganked by a group of players significantly more powerful than me, or me doing the same to others. The chance of a fair, equal PVP encounter was virtually zero. Even in a 1 on 1 with similarly geared players, many matchups weren't fair due to class balance issues and the game not being balanced for 1 on 1 in the first place.
My most cherished WoW memory during classic all those years ago was me leveling in Stranglethorn with my lvl 40-something toon only to be attacked by a lvl 60 troll warrior. Luckily I was a Paladin....and an engineer with a death ray. Popped my bubble and one shot him. That said, PvP usually was just like you described it. Never fair, way too many gankers (like my troll friend) and simply not worth the time.
Ohoho I just realized an interesting structural idea thanks to your video. PvP lovers *claim they like the challenge.* Broadly, many types of games as you progress give you additional benefits (levels gear etc). If you had a PvP focused game where, counterintuitively, your stats decrease as you get kills, this means you are incentivized to _actually git gud_ - good enough to fight and survive with 1/10th the stats. This is something I enjoyed in Grimvalor, a souls-esque game. There's an achievement that requires you to beat the game without levelling up. I beat the game, then beat it on NG+ (all enemies exponentially stronger, more complex attack patterns) and then went for that level 1 run. I can honestly say it was one of the most challenging, fun, and rewarding experiences I've ever had playing a game - because I was actually _flexing my skills,_ not just equipment. Beating bosses with shit stats is genuinely gratifying. So, I would posit that for people who enjoy challenges, having your stats decrease as you gain real life skill could practically serve as its own difficulty curve.
When they claim they like the challenge they usually mean the 'challenge' of making sure they win, be it by numbers, time and place of the engagement, or superior equipment. Not all PvP'ers are like that, but far too many.
or, you know, choose a game for your own liking. So many PvP games, that were supposed to cater to PvP players, were ruined by PvE players who wanted the game to become more PvE friendly after a while.
@@MonteKristof I agree, but 2 things can be true simultaneously, competitive gameplay can be hampered by a lack of effective pvp mechanics as well as unfair advantage as stated in the video. As I said, many pvp games don't understand competition and that covers it on both ends. When the game becomes designed for non competitive players it takes away from pvp elements, and when the game is to hard on new players it makes the game unfun and drives down the player base.
@@calaranisordo5709 I understand your points. That however heavily depends on the type of game. Star Citizen, for example, is a living and breathing universe, and nothing stops (nor nothing SHOULD stops) a player with a capital ships to go pirate someone in a "starter" ship. But there are no levels in SC, now health boost or nothing of the sort. Only ships and pilot skills. A "whale" that has a giant shil can be destroyed by a skillfull pilot in a mich smaller ship. That brings the question, should people with less skills be protected as well as they have a very clear disadvantage? My personal opinion is no. They should stick with groups and escorts and organize themselves to be protected until they get better at fighting.
Fair point, that sort of competitive gameplay is perfectly valid. It is also however extremely rare to see that sort of balencing. Take eve online for example, or ark survival evolved, or something equivalent. Most games promise the idea of players of great skill overcoming players with more resources but precious few ever deliver because that sort of idea is so hard to implement. It should also be noted that star citizen in particular is in its infancy and it has not reached the stage in which mega corporations or clans exist. In games like that what tends to happen is massive numbers of players join together and dominate everyone not a part of the group. Early on ark which is so well known for its mega tribes who keep everyone else from playing was an amazing game because of the equal playing field. But as time went on that disappeared and players left in droves.
@@MonteKristof There is one flaw in your concept: what is a new player to do when a group or escort is unavailable? Too many pvp mmo games fall into a groove where there often aren't any groups for protection. This is not terribly uncommon, and can create environments where the barrier to entry is not just the price of the game, but also griefers. Some people will find this fun, but it does reduce the appeal to a more niche group. This is a big problem. When a game becomes unwelcoming to new players, it will often slowly bleed players as people naturally stop playing, but also fewer new players enter. This can create a death spiral for a game, where you end up with tiny populations of die hard loyal players. It's not all-or-nothing. There are many options between consensual pvp and hardcore pvp. Finding a balance can be very important for the longevity of the game, and the enjoyment of everyone.
Loss aversion hits me harder and harder the older I get. I’m not playing to win anymore, I’m playing to not lose, then that devolves further into a feeling of just wasting time.
It's why I stopped playing Dota 2 as I got older. If almost every match I played was half as good as the best matches I've played with my friends I'd make the time. Since my friends stopped playing though it's not worth dumping an entire evening to play solo que and end up stomping or getting stomped with randoms who aren't playing on the same wavelength.
What I love in PvP games is when it's a battle of the mind. Teasing and tricking your opponent to make mistakes. It's what I loved about Gwent, I haven't played it in ages, but when I use to it was so fun. It was like a dance.
There's also the fact hardcore PvP gamers are the "some are more equal than others" of the overall toxicity of hardcore gamers. So even if it's made well, a game that's sold entirely on the premise of HARDCORE PVP will *not* have a good community. And community is kind of essential to an MMO.
Excellent point. That's actually the reason I'm really, _really_ glad they exist - anything that sucks awful people out of the games I actually *want to play* is a good thing, even if it's not something I would literally ever play.
@@nataliep6385 hardcore pvp players mostly do this to gain attention. they can only gain attention by larger communities. larger communities are more casual. casual players shy away from open pvp. the harcore pvp players leave if the casuals are gone. thats how every pvp mmo dies and every pvp server in mmos dies out. its always the pvp environments that die first and quick while the casual pve environments are healthy for years or decades to come.
Well said. To be enjoyable to me PvP has to be fair, balanced and voluntary. It's always sad when a game _could_ be really good but then forces you into PvP situations that can accurately be described as gankers' paradise.
this isnt any games fault, its the nature of humans, even in competitive pvp games like lol, good chance in the first 5 minutes all 5 on one team will scour the map trying to pick up a kill on jungler, or mid lane.
@@shroomiestshroom3655 For the most part I have to disagree. While it certainly is the player who makes the call game design has a huge impact on what sort of behaviour "becomes the meta" and, ultimately, what type of player comprises what can be considered the core community. For example, in a fair and balanced game those five players banding together looking for a cheap kill might get that kill or they might not, but in the process they are risking losing on every other front even against minimal opposition. If the other team has their shit together they can turn this opening tactic into a liability. In a hardcore PvP MMO there is no such drawback. Ganking is the meta without contest. At the end of the day every game gets the community it deserves.
I totally agree with you. I've always thought of PvP as a "bonus feature" inside a MMO's overarching theme. Something fun to play around with when you're tired of the main bulk of the game. It's a fun way to test who has the stronger combat build and on a minor scale who has better skill. When I started hearing about MMO games being made that focus on PvP I immediately thought "Well those games aren't going to last long" for all the reasons you've mentioned in your videos. Over time the game's fun-zone just dies because of that inevitable power gap. It's a cool idea though. It's just too bad the model just can't sustain players over a long period of time. MMOs by nature need to focus on PvE but have robust PvP options to keep the most players happy. Personally if I wanted to play something for the thrill of competition, I pick shooters. I pick fighters. I pick card and board games.
There is a difference between hardcore pvp and just pvp. You could make a PvP MMO. Hell, many have been fairly close. Classic WoW is basically a PvP MMO. It's just missing the systems to integrate PvP into the flow of the game. If they added PvP raids, it would basically be a PvP MMO What you're referring would be closer to something like Warframe or Path of Exile where PvP was just a glorified dueling system. Those two games have since introduced some actual PvP content, but it's still tiny by comparison.
@@wtn1670 Right but that's because Activision is a horrible company and Warcraft has NEVER been hardcore PvP, infact it was designed from the ground up to be more casual friendly than any MMORPGS that came before it and has been the most successful MMORPG to have ever existed based on that philosophy. And Eve Online, even that game understands that its cooperation, not wanton murdering thats called "competition" is how you sustain a game for many years to come, it's basically a microcosm of humanity i.e. turns out organizing into collaboration with each other and discouraging mindless raiding (but rather planned out, thoughtful raiding) makes for functional societies or communities.
"Imagine playing Magic and your opponent has half the deck already on the board..." Well let me introduce you to a few competition-illegal decks from my childhood
@@CharlesCorbett yeah, I know - I had the same. But it would take you most of the game to get to that point. That doesn't really fit the 'the opponent starts with half their deck out". Thibalt's Trickery gets your biggest, baddest summons on the board on turn 2., if the dice come up your way.
@@korenn9381 well no, ivory tower was combined with a few other exotic cards. With a half decent opening hand you could have the entire deck in your hand within a few turns. It just had cyclical draws, and then draws based on how many cards you had, etc. A similar deck I had did the same but with tokens, you would get so many tokens in play we had to track them on paper
i feel you there whenever a competitive / hardcore player joins a casual server in any multiplayer games they instantly blame everyone for making small mistakes or not sticking to a plan. what the heck did they expect when it literally says *casual*
This reminded how I wanted to be a miner in Albion but had to build a high-mobility and high-cc character just to escape the people who constantly tried to gank me in high level zones.
I remember creating a character in Asheron’s Call on Darktide, the PVP server. I was dead before I finished loading into the game. There were 4 level 100+ people camping the new player spawn point. One started to follow me until my immunity flag ran out.
I came here to make the same comment! Died instantly on spawn due to griefers in AC. Can you imagine being max level and just camping noobs? What sort of person does that?
Exactly that. Some players defend the pvp-focus with "You have no reward for ganking lowbies, so why would you do that?", completely ignoring the fact that there are people that get reward from ruining other players days. It's not about fairness or skill, it's about abusing someone for whatever reason. As a person that does not enjoy killing someone like he is a critter or being overwhelmed by insurmountable odds, I cannot say WHY they do it, but to quote Alfred: "Some people just want to watch the world burn."
Please make it a running gag about whether you actually have tea in the mug. Kind of like the whole "will he trip or not" opening for the Dick Van Dyke show
PvP can work in MMOs as long as there's a) ranking system where you're going to match someone on "your level" and not whales who outgear you massively or b) standardized stats and access to all skills etc. Unfortunately that usually means either players will go play the PvE portion of the game more, or if it's really PvP focused it won't be very popular.
OSRS also has a Mini Game call "LMS" where all players start out with Max combat and the same gear, after each round they only upgrade gear, until 1 Player remains. You can play several "full games" in one hour. And a brand new, day one player can join the Mini Game. 100% skill based, not perfect but a good way to learn PvP without costing you any in game supplies or money (gp).
Yeah it's honestly a better fairness to it, although a lot of the pvp formats are being taken advantage of. The wilderness (in his example, "single-way") is susceptible to clans swapping the participants of single-way and out-supplying you. Same as how clan wars in there go, there's a lot to it that violates his standards of fair play listed early on in the video.
I always think back to what happened on Atlas. Each group canalized each other group to form larger and larger zergs until you had China vs EU/NA. If you weren't part of one of the zergs then the zergs would kill you.
every time i speak out against full hardcore pvp, I get the obligatory "get gud" comment back. Yeah, thts why these hardcore full open world pvp mmos die early. Trash toxic community and trash game design. PvP is constantly the most toxic part of ESO, and now that im getting into WoW, ive seen it first hand there as well.
People get toxic because other people find it funny to come to a hardcore pvp mmo game that people love for what it is, start trashing it and demand it to be changed to their liking, as if there isn't enough WoW clones out there, and sometimes the devs begin to actually change the game to "reach broader audience". After which, it usually dies.
Well, if you play ESO you are not forced to do any PvP, there's a separate zone for that and when you enter by your own admission you are a target to enemies, doesn't matter what you like or want. Because it's PvP a simulation of the three banner war. And, you have to get good unless you like dying a lot what is there to hate about that. That is applied to real world as well. The learning curve of PvP is MMORPG has always been one of the highest mainly because of hundreds of gears to choose, multiple classes, races, buff, etc. It takes time and practice, death is normal. Bantering, t-bag, trash talk,etc is all part of PvP because it's competitive and mental victory is just as important. While there are some truly toxic players maybe you should look at yourself and maybe realized that PvP might not be for you instead of calling people toxic because you are bad at it.
Ironic the git gud comments are made by zergs or in video games that don't require skill and are rather a more complicated Brock paper scissors game. Albion is an absolute trash fire once you're forced to go into red or black zones as you will never get a 1v1 and the zergs trash talk you as if they themselves did something spectacular.
@@BlingBoyOto Yeah this is the usual song of Hardcore PvP players. They will go around telling people to get gud, but the moment you would take them for a spin in something skill-based like Starcraft, they would break into tears cause they would have to play a game where they cannot throw their wallet at the screen, buy the best gear, get 10 other people (probably pay them to do so, seen this happen in EVE all the time) and bully you to death. The skill worth of a Hardcore MMO player is rather low. But they sure will tell you that IRL you are sheit, while they themselves probably live in a basement with no future whatsoever.
Even worse they create accounts to follow those who don't join them to grief them even if they switch servers. They're a problem type of player on multiple games.
or just get good , you could have become better , also reaching a lot of follower with a streaming community that farm everything you need for you , then hack the game to erase their character ....but nahh you decide to lose . they would say ;)
Which is why I like that Rust servers reset a min of once a month. It keeps the big clans from locking down multiple servers. Some even more often, weekly or bi- weekly. Everyone is basically back to square one depending on if it was a full force wipe or just a server map wipe.
Zerging or whatever it's called is why i quit Albion online. I enjoyed it immensely until i reached the point where progressing requires going into the pvp zones and going into those zones went sth like this: >Stash all gear aside from a cheap mount and gathering tools >Go to pvp zone >Gather for 2 hours >Go back to the portal >Encounter a group of people, having a faster mount means i outrun them but these groups have 1 player with a fast mount and only cc spells so the others can catch up. >Get caught and lose all progress, if you're lucky they will give you the basic loot and once they gave me all my stuff but only once >Repeat Needless to say it got old after a week
@@emmanuelsampaio4687 Even if you use the best skill to escape, there is still a change to get fucked. and is nothing more annoying than being force into pvp. And the fact that you have to wear weak armor 90% of the game is just shity ( plus the limited mount pool).
Pvp is always unbalanced in MMO’s either because of gear differences or overpowered classes. But my issue with open pvp games is that I can’t opt out of it if I want to play the game. I’ll have to deal with roaming death squads that I can’t do anytginf about. I don’t mind pvp when I’m in the mood for it but if a game forces it on me in the open world then I just won’t play the game. Certain games looked fun (Black Desert comes to mind) but are an automatic pass for me because you can’t opt out of open world pvp. Once you reach a certain point it gets toggled on and there’s nothing you can do, in my opinion that’s stupid.
You're not missing much by skipping out on BDO. The character creation is the best part of the game. Once you make your character you may as well just uninstall because you've completed to only part of the game worth doing. Because it is so pvp focused the pve side is non-existent, and even for those who don't mind open world pvp, the game is essentially pay to win because the person who drops hundreds of dollars on the cash shop can get the things needed to upgrade gear and thus increase their characters power 100000x faster than the player who wants to play for free.
People shouldnt be scared to pvp. Its toxic to avoid pvp like the plague and i think its a big issue in gaming today. Bdo is a dog shit game but the pvp in that game is good but its definitely unbalanced due to gear letting you one shot people but in reality you can still absolutely enjoy the game and grinding without getting wrecked badly in pvp. To not play the game because pvp is toggled on is silly and you should try it, you might be surprised. Just know theres a lot of p2w issues with that game and gear enhancing system and the gear gap.
@@Khalith because you're missing out on half the game. why do that? the learning curve isn't that bad and once you get it down it will be fun. people who actively don't want to pvp seem to be the majority of people who play mmos and it sucks that the pvp community is always a minority for every game i play. its a lot of fun.
A few years ago I would have firmly placed myself into the group that probably despised you for holding that opposing view, but since those days have passed I'll just give you my two cents. Games like the above described are generally the only ones where players are going to role-play by accident. When a pvp mmo is done well, it's a game where none of the roleplaying is forced. I don't care if some kids wants to roleplay as a dragon man, or write fantastical stories about his character. I just don't. 98% of players are going to ignore RPG fluff and that's just the way it is. In an mmo where players are forced to work together or lose, players will assume roles to support the war effort, some will lose, others will become well known heroic figures to their peers, and it's all via non-forced unscripted interactions with other players. This in my opinion should have been the end goal of MMO design, to create worlds where players accidentally roleplay the same way that hardcore pvp focused games do, but the unfortunate reality is that this genre was pruned off and replanted long before we could get any better ideas out of it. So we have a bunch of pvp sandbox clones and a bunch of boring theme parks and the next best thing is anyone's guess. Josh's criticisms are all valid. These games can't be competitive in a fair sense and of course that's true. These games are also generally toxic. But I don't think people play PVP mmos for fair competition. The ability to rise to truly be a villainous empire in a game, or fight back as a heroic rebellion, is intuitive to human behavior and it's why people have gotten so addicted to this games long term.
that´s becuse they are the type of people that is me me me me me and everything is about them and they are the best in the world and they are a bit of F-up in the head and get´s a hard on for killing people and always wining. what you call them is narcissistic people with a tendency to get enjoyment destroying the fun for others. They never will understand becuse they don´t want to or care about you becuse it´s always about them.
Lets be clear here also, i like pvp mmo's. I just hate the hardcore pvp'ers for simple reasons. They are usually the ones who gank noobs for no reason, roll in packs of 20 people just because and steam roll a person fishing. Those people i genuinely and whole heartly dispise. Im all for some open world pvp, just none of the above and if youre one of those people, well im not going to like you. Yall always have similar characteristics aswell. One of those people youre self concious in real life and are compensating. Fact.
This was exactly why I and my friends stopped playing Rust, we just couldn't put in the hours that other players could and even if we had a great start it wouldn't matter, eventually we would get wiped by bigger or better equipped groups that never leave the server
Two games that sort of solve that problem: EVE Online and Warhammer Online. In EVE, better ships and equipment were exponentially more expensive than slightly weaker ones, so a bunch of cheap ships could realistically destroy a ship worth over 100 times as much. Destroyed stuff was permanently lost. Although EVE does have the blobbing problem you mentioned where it's ridiculously hard to get into a fair fight because each side won't commit until they think they have an advantage. Warhammer Online had the scenario system. You queued up, and it transported a bunch of players into a capture map instance where they formed 2 teams that were theoretically equal. Everyone who was under the max level for that tier got their stats boosted to the max level. One big problem though was that the boost didn't account for gear or skills, so the higher level people still had the advantage. The other big problem is that...the game is dead :( I wouldn't call the soul level system "fair" in Dark Souls. It also didn't take equipment into account and it was ridiculously easy to cheese as you had all those level 1 pyromancers running around with max enchanted equipment. There's also the fact that a majority of PvP in DS1 takes place in the forest, where the entire soul level match system is tossed right out the window.
I tend to hate PvP in MMOs because I never play MMOs to fight other players; I play to play WITH other players. If I wanted to play against players constantly I'd play a shooter or something like that.
Yeah, more casual PVP arean styled games were you just hope in for a few rounds is perfectly fine, but some PVP mmo game that requires months and years of investing that can be lost in the blink of an eye cause you had the audacity of existing near a sweaty pvper just sounds like an absolute drag to me. Now it'd be one thing if the pvp stuff was like some big grand end game thing, like say guilds forming large massive forts and castles, bases, etc etc, and have large scale battles, cause that would be fun to tag along for. A whole big group effort with everyone armed to the teeth and charging into a massive battle. But just getting constantly ganked by some bored sweat wanting easy kills is any fun at all. I'd dare say they're the most deserving of 'carebear' status because of that in fact. They don't want a challenge, they want guaranteed victories against other players handed to them on a conveyor belt with no challenge what so ever.
i never took you for someone that likes the old command and conquer games, but i am pleasantly surprised, since i am/was pretty involved in the german community and always love to see other people enjoy the games i love
Thanks for clearing up the what's in the mug mystery. Since the last video's #mugflex I can't watch a video without wondering if your flexing your incredible mug collection or actually enjoying a beverage. Keep up the fantastic work!
I don't feel comfortable joining many MMOs that's been out for a while because the veterans aren't friendly to new players. Some are of course, but can't ever get anywhere.
That whole "playing a game when the outcome is already known" is why I rage-quit Overwatch. When your team can't even get out of the spawn area for the whole map, having to do "one more round" is just insulting.
Meanwhile that one game i play : your chances of winning the pvp is based on how much you spend on the game, and most importantly how much fps you have. Anything below 90fps and your chance of winning is smaller than me getting a girlfriend
BDO was the 'first' game that came to mind when he started talking about 'unbalanced'. If you're a newer player, you can't even quest in some areas because some higher lvl/geared player is 'grinding' for even stronger gear.
Much like social media monetizing antisocial behavior and groupthink, a lot of games monetize bullying. It's pretty straight forward and I don't see it changing.
This is probably my biggest worry of New World right now. They seem to really want to make the factions, territory control, and thus pvp really important to everyone. It's just so hard to balance that I'm afraid it's going to ruin the game for everyone that chooses the wrong faction early on in the game for their server.
@@Reav00 I don't want it removed I just don't want it to be something a whole game is designed around. Especially when factions are mandatory and the focus for that PvP. If territory control was company only thing only in certain zones I think it would work. But balancing stuff like this extremely hard in a fair and rewarding way for a lot the reasons explained in this video.
ESO found a good balance for this. The open-world PVP zone, Cyrodiil, is divided into instanced "Campaigns", which reset every so often. So you get the long term planning and feeling of accomplishment from winning territory, and the even playing field because it resets.
I have to admit, my experience with PVP is mostly a high level player wondering through a newbie zone and killing everyone without taking any damage. It's also usually the moment I stop playing, because... why?
Same, it is the reason I stopped playing mortal online. A bunch of vets would just be sitting at the gate, waiting for new players to leave so that they can kill them
Easy solution for this kind of problem would be bounty system that would forever increase. You killing opposite faction low level players puts a bounty on your head that opposite faction players could collect. More you kill, higher it goes. Eventually someone will come and take you out because reward is too good to pass! You could also add a penalty when killed in bounty state. What i mean by that is: You lose something valuable when killed. Higher your bounty more you also lose when killed. Dont remember what game used system like that but, griefing was rare or non existant.
@@rockmcdwayne1710 sounds like an exploitable system, make a sacrifical alt so the penalty when killed as a bounty is irreleavant, and then either on a main account or with a friend, rack up the kills/bounty then cash in on the character you want. all the whilst keeping an eye out for the newbs to increase that exploit reward/per time even more!
I play Albion online, my guild [SlamDunk] is not small but not too big, and we are a new player-focused guild. so most of our players are not that skilled. around 1 and a half years ago we were in a smaller ally called Dune, and we ended up being at war with some of the biggest guilds in the game. we knew there where no chance of winning so we made it our goal to keep hitting their backline and forcing their players to deal with us allowing others push them back in other places. and even tho Dune disbanded after that season we were a pain for a lot of bigger guilds.
I think albion balances well. First its not hard to get to a weapon or armor to high level. Plus the more people who attack one person the weaker the attackers attacks are.
Definitely more fun when fair. The gear disparity is what really gets me. It feels awful to lose to a player who you can tell is less skilled than you, but wins by virtue of being able to play more (or just gets luckier) and thus has better gear. WoW tried to fix this in Legion (I think) with a buff that gave everyone pre-set scaled stats to try and even the playing field.
I agree with this perspective entirely. When I game, I don't want to risk being murdered repeatedly by crazy power gaps with different players. It's why I gravitate towards single player games, or games where PVP is either optional or bound to specific zones. Always active pvp games mean there is no safe place for new players to gain equal power to the veterans, and become a race to the top, where none of the top players fight each other (out of fear of losing their best stuff). Some games try to have their cake and eat it with a system wherein when you hit a certain level, pvp always is on after that, but I have actively quit games like that because I don't want to engage in constant PvP. PVP in mmos should ALWAYS be optional.
I just really don't enjoy PvP in general, so I would never play a PvP-only MMO. Because I don't enjoy it, I almost never do it. Because I almost never do it, I am terrible at it. Because I am terrible at it, I don't want to ever do it unless I absolutely have to. The only time I've engaged in PvP and even remotely enjoyed it is when I did so with a few friends at very low levels in WoW years ago, when we were sort of playing "baby characters" or WSG or AV, or when I went with a guild to Cyrodiil in ESO. Even then, it gets old for me pretty quickly.
same. the only time i do it is when i'm forced to during invasions from other players in Dark Souls. i don't have a whole lot of time to play video games as much as i used to, so i'm never gonna be as good as some guy who plays that game for 24 hours a day. and i have no interest in constantly getting rekt while i'm trying to unwind and destress.
I feel that brother. I have kept my skills up in PvP, but it just doesn't give me the same satisfaction as raiding with the boys does, or seeing cool areas in a game, or helping a new player get some gear. That shit is fun to me. Wish there were more PvE/Sandbox-focused MMOs.
Absolutely agree! I want to enjoy the adventure and story a game provides. I don't want to keep watching for the next ganker while going about doing my thing.
I don’t mind some ‘asymmetric’ pvp/competition, as long as each sides win conditions are appropriate to the differences(bigger side needs more caps/kills, smaller side needs less time on points to cap, etc). What I absolutely loathe is the open world gank trains.
This is a phenomenal video. While I absolutely love games such as albion online, the pvp is a mess even on the best of days. Not only is player count or gear more important than strategy in raw numbers, you run the risk of encountering someone whose build completely trashes your build and there is no counterplay you have available to use. You could plan out faction warfare with your friends and very carefully and tactically conquer territory from a faction and then said faction sends a group of twice as many players in literally the best gear available and you end up habing lost more land than you started with. I understand that these are the risks associated with pvp but another large part of the problem is the community, who when asked if the experience is fair either responds with "dont engage with it if you dont like it"(which doesnt work since its a core design element) or "git gud", because they know its not fair, they just dont help improve fairness because it would hurt them.
I played albion too and true if you're want to get gud, build only specifically for pvp, because pve monster is joke and some job only work on pvp, and that need heavy investment and cannot doing alone
It's funny you pretty much summed up what I call the difference between actual pvp and just pointless ganking. All the games that you listed I would agree actually work at having balanced pvp. The problem is get a "so called hard core pvp fan" to admit it. Huge example Air/Elyon lord if I truly care is set to release soon. It's so called selling point is open pvp. By month two there will be no pvp. There will be ganking. By month three there is very likely to be a large bleed off of players tired of having to get 6 people just to go whack at a tree. But instead of being rational and admitting that the model fails in the West they will instead insult everyone they possibly can. They will scream how they are all care bears and then go find the next game to put in the ground. The saddest thing is that in these games country of origin this is not how the pvp works. I speak from experience as I've played many Korean, Chinese etc. betas. This in no small part has to do with the difference in cultures. For Western gamers, gaming is asocial. We sit behind screens and in all likelihood will never see the face of the people we play with. In Korea they play in monster internet cafes/arcades. They actually know these people. They know their families and kids. If they acted like the standard Western player they would become a social outcast. Add to this that they actually God forbid teach their children real morals and values. None of these by the way are the Western you are special because you have a pulse approach. By all means, if you get the chance go try one of the toys in its native country. One of my favorite examples Lineage 2. I was one of the lucky smucks in the Korean beta. I literally more than once had entire groups of reds walk right by me as if I wasn't there. You see they had gone red in a guild battle. To them the idea of just randomly lashing out at anyone in their way didn't make any sense. The self same game releases in the West. Inside of two months it's got a huge bad rep as a grief fest. The only thing your sure of is some high level dork will spend his entire day doing everything he can to make sure you don't have any fun. This was the very real belief about the game. Sadly they weren't wrong. Final thoughts the very word versus implies competition. But these "so called hard core players" avoid that at all cost. They don't want a fight. They want a victim. The very best way to not get attacked by them is to actually look like a fight. I wish this where the saddest point. But it's not. The saddest point is that they really don't care that they just about kill everyone of these games they show up in. Thanks to the confused notion that pvp is king every game and it's brother now has "open pvp." So they'll just move on. The developer will make the micro-transactions ultra predatory to compensate and Walla dead game 394. Why is this truly sad is that there was actually allot of love put into these projects. But because of one pointless mechanic it mite as well not have ever existed.
I used to play an mmo in singapore a decade ago and I've never again experienced a community as friendly and welcoming. I always wondered why, but it all makes sense now.
Has nothing to do with morals in the west (plenty of countries that value family highly in europe). Korean players are just used to grinding and such so even the casuals end up playing those games and thus they have a higher and healthier playerbase. PC bangs are a factor but also that you have to sign up accounts with your real personal information and that they have fucked up laws that can fine you in real life for boosting/cheating and whatever else.
Same. It's a lot more fun for me to make a new friend by going on a grand adventure with a complete stranger and helping them along while showing them all the glorious sights of the game than to just kill them and just have some (likely) unsatisfactory pvp.
People don't realize how important helpful players are. You know what the best way to balance ganking is? Have anti-ganking guilds that go and hunt down the gankers.
@@Zexi141 I’d say the best way would be to not have ganking in the game. People who tend to gank tend to be pretty toxic and end up running people out of games. That happens enough times the game gets a bad rep and people either don’t play or just start leaving which would kill the game. I wouldn’t expect people to dedicate their play time to stopping people from being dicks instead of enjoying the time they get to play.
Eve online tends to have some of the worst PvP. Fighting anywhere near equal footing is extremely rare. It's all pain train N+1 fights, bubble camps to get solo players, roamers to get solo players, and outright griefing.
@@d33pblu3 It was okay when I had the time to do it, but I don't have the luxury of long periods of uninterrupted gaming anymore. Eve isn't designed for someone that can't dedicate large blocks of time to doing something. I packed it in after they changed conduits into some bogus PvP bait mechanic.
@@TheGerrok yeah most of the lads at the endgame are ether retired or have mostly passive income. But at the lover levels it’s still somewhat fun if you have a good corp.
I totally agree with you. Once I found an MMO I loved (Aion). It looked great (at the time) and played great. I knew there was PVP but it seemed to only be in certain areas so I wasn't bothered by the thought of it. I was very wrong. Once you hit level 50, the game changes how it works and now when you step out of any town you are in a full pvp zone. Everytime I left town, I'd get jumped by 5+ guys from the other faction and couldn't get a damned thing done. I quit that game, such a shame.
reminds of that time in wow where I was doing pvp and a paladin was just standing there getting hit by 5 players including me because he had pvp gear, normal player couldn't get any dmg through because he healed after each minute to full health. so I gave up and just sat beside the paladin...
All it would have taken was any other class in max level gear and they would have pooped on that pally, because it sounds like the type of pally you ran into was a Ret pally haha
I agree with everything said here - in game dev we have a term for these snowballing effects and countermeasures - Positive and Negative Feedback Loops - Positive Loops reward victory (or punish failure) and Negative Loops reward failure (or punish victory) From a technical design perspective, there are no negative feedback loops in hardcore mmos, only positive ones, so there's nothing to help the player for making mistakes and learning, and if they're punished for not knowing the game... they're just gonna leave. It's one of the reasons Mario Kart always gives better items to the players at the back of the race...
ESO's combat in a nutshell. I love this game for everything except 2 things: Combat design, and world leevl scaling. Seriously, you can beat every single solo boss in the game with 1 ability and autoattacks, its that easy.
@@easylivinglife6284 yea , people complain it wasnt skyrim so they made it that way :( . Also it was boring to not be able to coop with friend so the pve was singleplayer unless you have a character that you use only when your friend is online just to play with him . Now with the scaling atleast i can be max lvl and still have fun when helping my low lvl friend . But yea it should have been harder anyway , like combining our full force instead of maybe spaming a aoe to win . It also make us able to go everywhere we wanted despite lvl , making them able to sell dlc to new player ;) ... so basicly it had to be this way , but it should have been harder .
I like how you don't see the appeal of these games. There's a very specific, very pathetic type of gamer that wants to beat up people smaller than themselves over and over and over again. I like that that concept is foreign to you, you'd be very welcome in one of my guilds.
To be fair, that's not the only reason to like these types of games. I used to play a lot of Archeage and I always really enjoyed being able to outskill someone with better gear than me. I also loved large battles and the dynamic nature in which they could take place. Sure, I engaged in noob hunting stuff too but that was a necessity encouraged by the game's mechanics (killing people in war zones got you points to buy special gear and stuff). There is a point to be made though that these types of games tend to encourage a very toxic community of people, many of whom can act like you've said here.
the more I watch this video, the more I'm reminded of that weird C&C game that came out years ago called Tiberium Alliances. It was a C&C themed online city builder where players could form clans and war with each other. The goal of the game was to reach the center of the map. Eventually a substantially powerful clan was formed on the server called Necromongers or something. They took the center of the map and just roamed their base around attacking low level players and essentially wiping out their infrastructure so no one could ever even come close to the center of the map ever again. It didn't help that most of them spent ludicrous amounts of money on the pay-to-win features of the game. I played it as a kid and just remember feeling absolutely shafted the first time some dude with a max level city sacked my small outpost and destroyed all my shit
People who enjoy hardcore pvp MMOs don't want challenge or skill, they want to use their level and gear advantage to bully new players until they quit so they can feel like they "own the game" with their other brain dead friends/guildmates doing the same thing. Look at Mortal Online or Darkfall, the latter of which was killed by this. It is always these people who complain and hurl insults and even slurs when the playing field is level, as well. They begin threatening not to play anymore and since they are basically holding the game hostage by not allowing new players to actually play, they use this as leverage to get their way. It attracts people who aren't looking for competition, it attracts people who are simply hateful, spiteful and cruel. People who just want to make other people suffer with no danger of retribution.
Like all those who have been hurling insults at Hardcore PvPers in these comments? Ever heard of the pot calling the kettle black? You make broad generalisations based on no or skewed data. Most actual PvP'ers are not in fact like that, not those I have ever played with. Let me make this clear, if it is a Hardcore PvP MMO and you do not like Hardcore PvP DONT PLAY IT. It really is THAT simple. Hardcore PvP games are almost always based around GROUP play, not solo. The way to get ahead is to join a group. The vast majority of the time if you play solo you are simply going to get crushed. Take Eve Online. It is literally designed from the ground up to be played as part of a group. Being in a Player run Corporation is flat out encouraged. Most of Null Sec is run By Player Alliances and Coalitions of Alliances. While it is possible, playing Eve Online Solo is not easy. But it is not designed to be played Solo. So those brain dead friends/guildmates are playing most hardcore PvP MMO's the way they are supposed to be played, in GROUPS. If you want to play one, find a group, or die. Because frankly the brain dead ones are those who complain about Herdcore PvP MMOs without REALISING they are almost all based around group play. Then whining about it.
This is a great video. I played a lot of lineage 2 when I was a teenager, and that game was way more fun in private servers than in the official servers. That happened because the way the game was designed, powerful clans will snowball and get so powerful that you couldn’t compete with them. So usually clans would jump from private server to private server and try to get ahead, when a clan won (meaning it was controlling all the high value farming area and bosses, there were no instances in that game) the server died and it was time to move to the next new one. But the first two three months where always really fun, I couldn’t find anything like that in any other mmorpg
Something that came to mind while I was watching this was that most "hardcore PVP" players don't actually enjoy the PVP part of it, or at least it's not the primary focus of their enjoyment while playing. Every time I've heard someone wax poetically about them, it's not about how great the combat system is or anything related to the actual PVP, it's about how the experience of being in the world and it's dangers is exhilarating and makes the world feel "more real", the sense of danger knowing an unwinnable battle "might" be coming gets them more invested. There's also the people that get a kick out of being the king of the hill with no one able to challenge them, but not many will admit it. That's fine if it's what you enjoy, nothing wrong with that, but Hardcore PVP MMOs are only enjoyable *if* you primarily enjoy that aspect. Every other aspect, both PVE and fair PVP, are made worse by it, so you end up with a playerbase that selects itself to people that specifically enjoy trying to gain/avoid unfair advantages against each other, which ends up usually being toxic and extremely unfriendly to new players.
Yeah in example by MO - near everyone talks about fear of being gank banged (or any other thing like that) and near noone praise it for fighting. This shitty fighitng system allowed them to run a company for over 10 years
@@ladrok97 What MMO doesn't have a shitty fighting system? Even the best MMO fighting system is awful compared to the worst action games. Thats what MMOs are all about... the world and interactions with other players. The combat systems are always garbage, people simply tolerate them because they enjoy the MMO aspect.
For me, it’s all about trying to become one of those badass “cowboy walks into a bar” or dynasty warrior types. It’s the simulation of the whole “I know kung fu so if you mug me you’re in for trouble!” type situation.
Here's a real world example. Back in college me and my friends loved to go to the street court and play basketball. We did it all the time. We sometimes played against other regular college students too. Great fun. One day, several guys from the college basketball team (NCAA) came and wanted to play and insisted on being on the same team against us. It was like playing against people who could literally fly. You see that crap on TV, it's totally different to try and actually play against these people. I think the final score was 30 - 0. It wasn't fun because it was clear 2 minutes into the game that we didn't stand a chance.
reminds me of this yu-gi-oh game i played with a friend. he managed to summon 4 monsters including a fusion monster on his first turn and all I could do was put a monster in defence mode. after he attacked i was down from 8000 life points to 1200. i just quit and never played again. what's the point in even trying if an opponent can just completely annihilate you before you even start having fun.
It could be said that some "Hardcore PvP MMO's" are actually empire building games. Involving gaining power through PvE and manipulating it in diplomacy/PvP. The difference being while the game has PvP it is not the focus but rather a piece of the game.
Don't forget sites like battle metrics: People can sign up to get text notifications when you, or any member of your group, log out, so they can only attack when you're offline. At least in any game with base building. The biggest problem with PvP sandboxes is.. They aren't actually PvP. Players fight in the most indirect, weasily ways. They do anything BUT play the game and look for an opponent. They'll spend all week hunting for a reddit post about the next duplication glitch, then spend 5 minutes attacking someone who is offline, or who they lagged out with a poorly coded chatbox somehow, then get some kind of idea that they're elite. As a 3 time world champion of 3 different PvP games back in my heyday, I'll tell you a little secret.. The reason TOURNAMENTS have rules is that, if you can only win by stooping to a ruleset nobody else will use.. It's because you aren't actually good. Just more desperate for a number to go up than your opponents.
I dont know i played alot of darkfall back in the day it was still the most fondest memories i have of MMO gaming, the roaming for other players and the uncertaintity of the fights is what drove me, a fair fight was far in between but when they happened it was truly magic and sides could fight for days, i have never been that engaged in any other MMO since what you do doesnt end up mattering to anyone, its all up to you the player, things dont have to be fair there just have to be mystery about the outcome.
![Why do Gamigo kill MMO's? - [MMOPINION]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/CPZkfYWp9uo/mqdefault.jpg)
these are the types of games where veteran players gang up on new players and make their lives miserable and then wonder why their game isn't more popular
Cough planetside cough
Bdo cough
lookin at you, Robocraft...
Gloria Victis 100%
@@destroyerofworldsnamedchan577 my last run on BDO I encountered griefers very little, it really let me engage with the PvE without interruption and realize there is very little PvE content diversity and a stupid high amount of grinding.
Don't worry, all this will be fixed in Dreamworld.
U will never play another game after dreamworld
Dreamworld so innovative that you only play while dearming you don't even need a pc LUL
Dreamworld is PvEvP tho
@@zcanann its more like DreamworldvE
@@TewifyingUwU Which is technically true since Dreamworld will never release...
ive found in my time that a not insignificant part of gamers dont enjoy a fair competition, they enjoy winning, no matter how unfair and they absolutely hate losing like nothing else.
its the people that smurf in LoL, that use aimbot in CS, that kill low levels in WoW and that switch factions to the one thats always winning. These people thrive in hardcore mmos and imo make a significant portion of the playerbase.
they always say its about the thrill and risk but in reality they just want to always win and risk nothing. wheres the risk when roaming around with 10 max level players ganking lone people leveling? its zero, they want non of the risk while being rewarded for what can only be called griefing.
these type of people will always be in hardcore mmos and they are the reason no matter how perfect, your hardcore mmo will always fail.
this.
Even more evidence, the "risk" these players tend to take is even reduced when they go on "naked" ganking runs where they can't even lose any (valuable) gear. Which they can only do due to a combination of high character stats and sheer group size.
Frail ego does this.
Edit: oh, and you just described the typical Goon.
Not saying they're not skilled. Just saying they're very very selfish.
It's the brutal reality of human existence. People forget we used to be barbarians and that meant raiding the weaker neighbor tribes and its why manifest destiny of the Americas was inevitable. Whenever a human group gets an edge on other humans someone within the advantaged group will eventually use it to abuse/exploit. It's why Rust is a beautiful brutal game exposing these people openly for what they are.
The difference is in video games you should honestly pity these people. They have nothing in their lives besides the games they dumped hours into in order to be the temporary big man on campus. They play because of a crippling insecurity and not for fun or genuine enjoyment. I know it because that was my crew on Arma2/Rust/Ark. We didn't cheat but we could just put more hours into the game than almost anyone else on the servers. The truth is it was fun, for a time, but eventually you're supposed to get bored and after a few wipes move on. The cheaters your lumping in with the try hards almost never do, they just keep on doing it over and over again and again until they fall apart irl.
I fully admit I had fun killing entire Arma2-Dayz, Rust, and Ark servers. But school/job/GF and irl responsibilities are supposed to put an end to that phase. For some people those responsibilities never come into their lives.
Man, you just described almost every person I've ever encountered in runescapes wilderness...
One side wins. The other side quits. The winners quit out of boredom, because there's no one left to fight.
Exactly
EVERYONE FIGHTS NO ONE QUITS ... Sorry couldn't help myself
And what is wrong with that? Who says an MMORPG has to go on forever in a fake carebear world.
@@fightingfortruth9806 “carebear world”? You are the type of guy who thinks that ganking noobs with ten buddies is a “fair and good strategy” but then whines on forums when those noobs gank you while you afk to watch Pornhub.
Also MMOs meant to go for VERY long time, otherwise its just a waste of developing time.
@@fightingfortruth9806 Are you fucking serious? The point is that no one will want to play the game anymore. There are not true "winners" due to the complete lack of real competition and very real presence of unfairness and frustration. The player count dwindles, and you hypersweat neckbeards lose all your low level fodder to gank. You're basically ruining the game for anyone else who might want to pick it up and play it due to being a selfish, unhygienic greasemaster afraid of being challenged.
Remember New World's alpha test?When they basically changed the entire game after most of the player base ignored all of the content and just went seal clubbing in the starting area? Remember all the whining in the forums? Yeah, most of the "hardcore pvp" crowd doesn't want fair matches. They want to get a kick out of stomping n00bs. That's all.
The hardcore pvp audience wants to do a few things. They want to annoy people, they want to grief people and they want to torment people who are just trying to chop a tree down.
This also goes to the CoD community as well. There is so much whining and crying over skill based match making, "I dont want to have to sweat every round!" What they mean to say is "I want to stomp people who are worse than me so I dont have to try".
@@jonathansoko1085 sounds exactly what someone would say who casually jumped into RUST lol
They do that out of frustration of never getting good at PvP game. This is the only way they can "defeat" another player.
It's similar to when a kid shoots up a school, in their little head they think they are the alpha all of sudden even though they brought a gun while nobody else did.
pick 1) item drop / item degrade / full loot = supply and demand = crafting and gathering system that actually works
Ultimately, the real problem(imo) is that these games are specifically catered to people who want that power gap, and that's why these games will continue being made exactly the same way, even as each one rapidly fails and then fades into obscurity. Whales will shell out massive cash to be arbitrarily superior, and game companies love a good whale.
I hate it, but the fact is that what you said is absolutely true.
They're deliberately designed as bullying simulators, and targeted at people who have no interest in stopping bullying, they just dream of *becoming* the bully.
@@AndyLundell Precisely. It's literally "Pay money to be able to bully everyone poorer."
Dude literally foresaw Diablo Immortal release lel
@@RandomPinoyGamer That game made $100 million...fuck I hate humanity sometimes.
4:05 Don't give them this. 99% of imbalanced MMO pvp enjoyers don't ever want to be the underdog who wins. They want to be the one with the stacked deck stomping on the underdog.
or just the ones pissing on the gaming experience of anyone they can and get away with it. sad, innit?
To be fair, military doctrine isn't about a fair fight, but defeating an enemy. "Overwhelming Force" is wrapped around the very idea of the unfair fight. One side stacks up so many soldiers and numbers of equipment, so that two things happen: 1. Assured victory. 2. Minimizing loss and casualties through a drawn out engagement. I know MMOs are games, but Games Theory and War Gaming (what the military does) is about simulating how you can defeat an opponent with minimal loss or threat to your own assets. Having a level 50 stomp a lvl 20 in an open world pvp encounter reflects this. Most of it in MMOs are based on egos and insecurity, but then again, so is military conflicts in the real world. lol
@@swordmonkey6635 once again, your absolute candor in open forum is appreciated. sadly, the views shown are not those welcomed by most of any sandbox game's player base - a base which is dwindling with every passing year owing largely to devs who share your freely-given opinions. as you inferred: game theory isn't fair. it also isn't balanced, and it most certainly isn't enjoyable for the majority of participants. meaning that: as games are a form of entertainment, games with a form of unfettered PVP fail to be entertaining for the vast majority of actual or potential players. fortunately for you, games with such PVP will always be lucrative as they attract and hold those sad and broken failures who depend on it as their only means of communication and self-actualization.
i mean... i do? i know plenty more people who think the same way.
@@swordmonkey6635 pretty sure people don't want to be constantly ganked by high level players because "it's a good idea from a military stand point". It's a video game, it's meant to be fun, not realistic.
I think an even deeper problem is that when you have a persistent game the only way to really "win" is to drive the opposition out of the game completely. You basically wind up with a system that rewards you for making the game as un-fun as possible for your opponents.
Basically. Unless literally everyone goes completely against the game's systems and whatnot and goes by some dubious honour system to only have large scale battles and balance each other out properly and be honourable and whatnot can such a game thrive... and as you notice, I just described instanced, arena-style pvp, not a "hardcore pvp" mmo.
There is an actual "be annoying rather than powerful" metagame in EVE warfare.
@@Latronibus You can say that again.
This describes Ark meta.
Idk if that's necessarily a problem. Fighting games are peak competition, and when someone is winning in a fighting game their opponent literally doesn't get to play. Same with league, once a team catches a lead the snowball effect begins. In fact, I'd even say it's a staple of good pvp that one side makes the game less fun for the other.
For certain people who say that those who dislike unfair PvP ganking can’t handle “real life”, let me just say that in real life, few can get away with the sort of toxicity I’ve seen in these MMOs and the internet.
Also, we go to games to get away from real life. Life isn't fair, that doesn't mean our games shouldn't be.
Real life is 100% pay2win anyway, with insanely overpowered spawn points for the few lucky ones. Of course these PvP obsessed nutjobs fantasize about being the rich CEO who gets to make life miserable for everyone below them.
You see that kind of toxicity everywhere. I played World of Tanks for a while and literally left because the community was so toxic. Not because of the game, the community.
So sorry, disagree with you there.
That's the thing, no consequences, that's why I give games brownie points for adding consequences for those types of players.
And that's why I argue that there IS a good way to play and bad way to play a game, If not, then the victims of griefers would like to have a word with you.
Pople who use real life analogues in pvp are probably the one who cant handle real life problems.
I quite like it when they have a separate walled-off open pvp zone. Completely optional, but sometimes it's nice to check if your over-leveled, over-geared character really is more powerful than other characters. But you are choosing to go in there, and can easily avoid it if you're not interested.
I'd add an emphasis on "optionnal". Quite a few MMO had a separate zone with open PVP, but full pve players had to go in there because that's where all the fun stuff (or the high level things to do) were placed. No, it's not optionnal anymore. I hate when MMOs do that.
I really like how Lineage 2 handled the problem, PVP is open everywhere except in towns but if a player you attack does not respond back and you still kill them you get flagged with karma, the more people you kill this way the more karma you get per kill and you can only remove it via quests and killing monsters. A player with karma will be attacked by town guards, if other players attack them they don't get pvp flagged themselves and if a player with karma dies they can loose items. The game essentially marks these players as kriminals and makes hunting them a free for all activity with potential really expensive loot.
That system being in place drives people towards doing actual pvp via clans and clan wars but still opens up the possibility of mutually accepted duels or being a dipshit and getting actually treated as dipshit for doing it.
It kind of creates this passive flow of gear from folks that have enough money to risk doing the player killing to people that need gear and can get it by ganging up on the killer.
@@GreatGodSajuuk not to mention that system created unique challenges and hurdles for said dicks which was fun in its oen right. There was a bounty forum which you could pay high level clans for the persons ear (proof of kill) You had whole PvP clans with patzies and town runners for supplies.
You had some PvP clans powerful enough to raid towns for fun. Yet it was so risky and costly for those attacking the town it was decently rare.
If you could live with the consequences, it was a great challenge. A good PvP system for dicks.
@@GreatGodSajuuk Also loved the fact you could get special weapons dropped if you PK which got stronger and stronger with more kills. Even though I really dont like open world PVP actually made me like it in L2... We were a small clan, yet we banded together with some other people to take down a PKer with the dual weapon to make sure he doesnt keep killing everyone.
Albion online does this well. There's a whole other island for it.
The concept of Josh and his videos is low key funny. We got a very poise, dare I say almost elegant, man holding his mug very respectfully and very eloquently explaining why stuff is bad. It just works .
Very well put
He's like a TotalBiscuit/Cynical Brit 2.0.
Just without the fov slider analysis.
Don't forget the oversaturation when he's in shot.
@@WakoDoodle man, I miss TB and his pet peeve of games with very little settings in the options menu and no ability to change keybinds. :(
Than the mug is fluffy somehow or something similar. His low ley trolling is great.
"a team of 5 can easily overpower a single player"
*PTSD flashbacks of getting ganked in the wilderness of runescape by a sweat clan*
I just realized real-life is a hardcore PvP experience.
Except, at least in a game everyone started at level 1.
@@Katrik3571 everyone started at level 1 here too, the only difference is if you get one of the premium starting pack with xp boosters or not.
Nah, I don't think you can say everyone starts at level 1 or as an equal. You can start with a handicap such as a physical ailment.
@@rePAULsion "Rich parents booster pack"
@@rePAULsion men are born equal, but after that, equality ends.
Josh hit the nail on the head here; PvP MMORPGs don't match you with equal skill level. In fact, most PvP-focused players in these games prey on the newbies and people who don't want to PvP. Then their ego inflates thinking they are awesome when in reality they just killed people who A) Don't want to PvP, B) Aren't equipped for PvP, C) Usually don't even fight back because they just want to harvest that sunflower for their potion. But the PvP "leet" mentality is that they are now a god among men because they killed someone who didn't even fight back.
They are pathetic people irl is why… and it is a lack of self esteem that fuels their actions.
I'd say this is also true about Runescape's wilderness, at least for old school. Can't speak for RS3 since I don't play it.
This is why I’ll never play EVE online. They justify that mentality for interest in the game.
@@Leetfaction rofl.. the difference with hardcore pvp and wilderness is that the wilderness is *optional*, no one's forcing you to enter a pvp zone, thats your choice, the wilderness aint safe, bud.
@@Hero-oz9gx I find it funny how any criticism of the current state of the wilderness is always met with responses like, "Don't like it? Don't participate. Wildy ain't safe, bud. Git gud."
Just because it's optional, doesn't mean it's free from criticism. The wilderness is incredibly flawed. I shouldn't need to explain to you why things like singles clans, pjing, boxing and skull tricking are all ridiculous mechanics that kill the true spirit of what the wilderness is supposed to be.
Also, nobody is advocating for the wilderness being safe by the way. That's just a strawman.
I never thought of it before, but Hardcore PVP MMO's are kinda' a lot like the real world. I now understand their appeal for a lot of people; basically in the game they get to be the 1% that they could never be in their mundane lives where they're like the newbie who entered a situation where everything was already divided up and the outcome was pretty much already determined.
The distinction is what matters to you more: winning or competition
And some people do not want a fair fight. They only want to win.
Bastardized Reiner Knizia quote about board games: "The point of the game is to have fun. The objective is to win. The two should never be confused."
People who grind in mmos just so they could "crush noobs" are the same people who would use hacks in a shooter.
@@nenadmilovanovic5271 Or who'll buy low ranked accounts so they can bully new players still getting to grips with the basics.
@@nenadmilovanovic5271 I hope that was a joke
its also brutal to new player when there is open PVP. In theory a level 60 character has no reason to PK a level 5. They gain nothing from this as it is not a test of skill and there is no reward to gain BUT typically the high level players will regularly kill the low level players, over and over and over again just to be dicks. For the new player who this happens to the outcome is normally they quit in frustration. I remember that WoW use to have quite a few pvp servers back in the day but as the players gained in power on those servers they kept bashing the low level players constantly. After a while the servers started to empty as these players who kept getting bashed just moved onto PVE servers. Now there are no pvp servers, instead there is a 'war mode' that you can flag yourself with that most people just ignore. In almost every scenario where you allow players to regulate pvp among themselves and do a 'all levels' pvp it almost always turns out this way because for the higher levels its just 'fun' to watch lower levels struggle.
Pretty sure that's actually what killed the game, Blizz bending to the will of the carebears. PVP servers are by far the most popular on classic for good reason. I appreciate all the points above but one thing I always thought countered this in WoW in particular was that a lvl 60 off ganking usually started some form of conflict. People seem to think they should always have a chance but I disagree. What I always found far more engaging was either ganking or getting ganked, telling some friends, get them to get some payback, then they get some friends and suddenly you've got raid groups going in STV. Most fun I ever had in that game was open world pvp raiding.
@@juninplays8742 I agree, the old school style PVP made people interact with their servers, we knew each other by name, I miss the old tarrens mill endless stand off battles lol... People wouldn't just be running through the world ofp... People would make a lot of friends helping strangers fend of a ganker and stuff, good times, I'm a old school shadowbane player though, people seem to want to play mmo also like a solo game with other people around, I like when mmo's make people organize... I've played way too many mmo's in the last few years where I had literally no reason to speak to anyone like eso lol... To each his own but open PVP servers should always be an option, not the rule but an option...nothing wrong with pve, but there's nothing like a PVP server, in any game, ya'll scared of the big guilds and corps? Im trying to figure out how to take them Down, like I said though, to each its own.
@@taurusironcloud9397 Yeah I think the advantage of PVP servers is that unlike the very controlled situations in PVP battlegrounds or arenas, open-world PVP is a lot more natural; back when I played WoW, my best times were playing alliance on a PVP server with an 80%+ Horde population since it meant every Alliance player either knew each other or knew someone who knew them - it also meant every Alliance player had been through the pain of getting stomped by a max level character while they levelled and was far more likely to jump in when they saw someone else in trouble. Also, I'd estimate around 85-90% of the alliance playerbase all had PVP gear on standby, so we really were the underdogs -able to punch well above our weight whenever the Horde side pushed their luck e.g. I remember a Horde guild called the 'Red Horde Chilli Peppers' who bought over 200 players to a raid on Stormwind, only be to repulsed by around 70-80 Alliance players of various guilds who quickly co-ordinated, strategised and wiped our the larger yet less well equipped/less skilled Horde guild. I was one of those 70-80 players, and it's a memory that clearly sticks with me far more than any battleground or match of LoL/CoD/Halo.
This is a cold take. PVP servers in WoW were the more popular ones. In classic they generated actual conflict. It also didn't really hurt all that much to die. You still kept your gear. Contested zones were always known to be alliance or horde favored so you knew where to go. This isn't the same
I believe one of the most important aspects, which you didn't go into detail too much, is that sometimes the "gap" between the experienced player and the newcomer can become so big, that it becomes virtually unreachable. This is especially true for fast paced PvP fights that can end in only a few seconds if you don't know what you're doing. And this leads to one major issue: Being unable to learn from your mistakes and improve. Even if you're playing against an opponent who is much more skilled than you are, usually you can at least still get some experience.
Learn what you did wrong, study what the opponent is doing, grit your teeth and push through. It sucks, and it won't be enjoyable for most people, but the point is there is still a chance to recover.
But once the gap reached a critical mass so to speak, you're unable to learn anything. Because well, the match will be over before you even got the chance to do anything. You can't adapt to your opponents skill, you can't figure out what works best for you, you can't learn your good / bad matchups, nothing. Because you'll be dead within less than 10 seconds. So if you still want to improve, you'll have to sit through hours of guides, listening to people telling you what you're supposed to do, just to get a vague idea on what will increase your odds at winning. The moment I'll have to spend more times watching guides and gathering knowledge from OUTSIDE the game about how to play the game, rather than by actually playing it, is the moment you lost me.
In ARK it is even better. You can make your opponent unconscious, but keep them alive.
Their player has no escape form this except deleting their character and starting again.
This can happen with anything though and it does. Go look at Evo, how many new people do we see each year? Not many. One would say a fighting video game is the most equal opportunity there is and yet the pros all have hundreds, if not thousands of hours of practice on your average Joe.
Josh brought up soul level in Dark Souls but soul level doesn't account for gear, you can have a low soul level but decked out in top of the line gear and go noob stomping, there are guides and build websites dedicated to this.
Rainbow 6 seige, a very fair and competitive game is going to favor the veteran over the new player on map knowledge alone.
PvP will never be completely equal. You have to just accept that if you want to play PvP games. Sometimes your going to get steam rolled, sometimes your going to run into a cheater. Sometimes it's not going to be fun.
@@rogerwilco2 what in the actual stupid fuck is that. That may actually be the single most idiotic game-system I've ever heard of.
@@Caralast If you are in Null like me then no, you do not see many newbies every year, but then few go out there into the dark, dark horrors of Null Sec!
@@Caralast Are you talking about EVO like a biggest fighting game turnament? There are actually new faces quite often. It's just the genre is unpopular and it's hard to be better than top 100 players you see on turnament. Yet you still see more underdogs and newcomers than in other games because anyone with great skill can attend EVO
I'm going to need you to prove the cup has something in it every time after that Dreamworld video
I second this notion. We gotta start a petition or something
You really help verbalize my feeling on wow arena. The beginning of an expansion is great because everyone is on the same playing field. But then it comes down to getting stomped by ppl ahead of the curve, or playing all the time to stay ahead of the curve.
Games go two ways, you either design for balance or you design for fun. WoW skirts a fine line and accomplishes neither particularly well as a result. They’re hands are tied.
But its not fun to face an enemy that has virtually no chance of winning. I feel lik arenas specifically should have stuck with the balanced stat table they brought in during WOD.
I found arena intensely boring. I loved battlegrounds. Battlegrounds you'd work with your team and there were more objectives than just 'don't die'. Arena is for the 'dueling outside Orgimarr' crowd. I had zero interest in that. I like co-op pvp but individual pvp is boring. I just don't care. I played some LoL (quit because the games are too long) and several first person shooter co-op games. So i'm not a carebear.
I feel like very few people actually like arena. That 90% of the people are doing it only for the gear. I think it would be a wasteland if you could get as good or better pvp gear elsewhere.
I love world PvP in WoW. My second favorite is battlegrounds. I have played arena and had fun in it but I don't do arena anymore and only did it because you had to for the gear back then.
I just wish WoW had a solo/duo ranked battleground queue. Random battlegrounds have no matchmaking so most games are lopsided and unfun (no matter which side you're on). If there was a way to queue for ranked while playing solo or with a friend that would be a lot better I think. Still not perfect, of course, but then at least you'd be far more likely to face people around your skill and gear level.
@@RavienGaming Okay, so I have not played WoW in an extremely long time, since like back in the original. I know pvp changed a lot since then, so keep in that mind when I say this. I really really hated the pvp in WoW. Basically because someone a few levels above you would always win. I remember wanting to get into the pvp but at the time it was a complete waste of time to even try pvp unless you were max level, and that really annoyed me.
I remember a time where I was revisiting an old MMO I played when I was a kid, and when I got to the part where the grinding needs to take place on a pvp map, I got camped. My total death count for that day alone was 52. Yeah pvp focused mmo is a nightmare for me
Too often the non PVP focused MMOs put the good resources and loot in pvp zones forcing non-pvp players to engage in pvp
Fuuuuuck I hate it when games do this...
i just don't go there, most of the time it's full of players that just want to bully you, that aint fun.
The dumb part is that it doesn't even work - players don't start engaging in PVP content because there is resources and loot there, they will go in minimum risk gear and then attempt to flee any PVP encounter while taking advantage of the loot and resources and be of no risk whatsoever to anybody who may try and kill them. I don't understand why they go to all this effort, especially when it becomes clear that the vast majority of their players hate PVP and avoid it at all costs. Surely the solution to "nobody wants to engage in PVP" isn't "force them into PVP areas where a minority of jerks will kill anybody and everybody they can".
You have to lose some to gain some. Pvp should be apart of everyones experience because of its effect on the world. You can thriwe if you choose to team up and defeat the ganker and quest on safely. People who give up and hide doesnt get the treasure naturally.
@@MaDmanex100 Ah yes, let's get 5 level ones with a total of 500 attack against the one veteran with 50,000 defense, 40 million hp and a weapon whose dmg number just says Atomizes your fucking soul. Get outta here dude.
Imagine playing magic the gathering when your opponent spent 10-100x as much $ on their deck.
I had this exact thing happen just last week.
I'm getting back into mtg for the first time in almost a decade. After a fnm draft I got invited to try out the commander format by a bunch of the regulars. So I bought a preconstructed commander deck, sleeved it up and came in on commander night.
First several games were with some of the people who had talked me into trying it, and were there when I bought my preconstructed deck at fnm. All running several hundred dollar or thousand+ dollar decks that pop off silly infinite mana or "everything I have is indestructible now" combos on turn
Spending 3 months building up my character and then stabbing you as soon as you walk out of the starting city. What isn't fair about that? It's all skill. There is nothing like the thrill of victory of killing someone who is trying to figure out what the buttons do.
If I were getting into MTG on a proper level I'd buy proxies if I were you. £15 for a couple of decks, rather than 1 card.
fundementally, there is a limit of how much money that they can actually spend, and they don't take your resources if you lose.
@@suddenllybah there is also an upper limit on how powerful an mmo character can be tho.
As a designer, I can safely say that it hurts me when developers start a project with HC PVP in mind but have a load of other cool systems. Because what inevitably happens is those cool systems crumble to the pvp side of things. I was one of the early testers and promoters for Albion Online, specifically for its features like crafting and gathering. And with the design decisions they've made, that translate to "you're in a big group or you don't see late game". And because the bigger guilds hold all the power, and they pay the developers the most money, the developers cater to them, thus shoving out the people who played for those systems. It is really quite sad. Excellent video. Glad to have my feelings validated like that.
Yes, Albion is online and is dying due to a bias towards such hardcore pvp, with a lack of balance, and this is killing the game, making it online even smaller and niche, and also killing the economy of Albion, depriving peaceful players of the motivation to produce something when only Monopolists represented by large guilds, PvP guilds and gankers can earn an adequate amount of rewards using the Albion economy. This destroys competition between peaceful players and makes the economy unprofitable for poor players, thereby depriving the game of a huge number of players and due to the monopoly in the Albion economy - it is now dying, the premium price is growing endlessly, at the same time that low-tier resources, which have always been a source of income for a beginner at first - they are too cheap and this shows the lack of demand when most people leave the game. I’m already silent about the lack of balance between different types of weapons, as in wow, for example, and about situations when newcomers are simply quickly killed by older players who cannot be caught up and matched in power.
1:45 how did you knew I was thinking about it
Strife has seen way too many shit in his worst mmo series, he just earned a better understeanding of humanity at this point.
it made me kek
It was the only thing I could think about 😂 glad he clarified
Are there any hardcore PvP MMO's that are able to survive long term? Every one that I've tried usually ends up dead because new players are constantly ganked by veteran players and they give up after being told "get gud" on the forums. You can't build a healthy player base when the mechanics are designed around benefiting a bunch of bullies.
Well whether you like it or not you have to get good, player killing you in a PvP environment doesn't make them a bully, that's just a pathetic excuse to be honest. There were some really toxic and bad designed like the ability yo spawned camp but most MMORPG have separate PvP areas, the learning curve has always been one of the hardest in any game genre, you are gonna die tons on your way to being good, that's just it there's no circumvent unless you're the type that enjoys pay to win system where you can just straight out buy advantages with real money to the point where that negate your inadequate skill levels.
@@Claude-Vanlalhruaia PvP where experienced players can regularly curb start new ones before they've even had the chance to learn the game much less gear up isn't good PvP and it never will be. In order for someone to have the chance to "get good" they have to have a fighting chance to begin with. Something that is impossible in games where progress is measured in months of work and gives a severe advantage to those who have played the longest. The "get good" argument is a lazy excuse that I regularly see bullies use to justify ruining the game for new players.
@@OmegaZyion If you have a problem with people that are already ahead of the curve then you are gonna have a lot of problems in real life as well and if this is your mentality on it, you are gonna have a terrible life, if I am to be perfectly honest.
No one is gonna hold your hands and wait for you to catch up because the world doesn't revolved around you or your needs. They themselves have catchup to do, the people in the top needs to work constantly to keep their place. Its a brutal world where the weak are left behind.
This is applicable to games as well as the people who are behind the virtual character are real people as well, it is especially true on pvp. It is not toxic nor bully, you are just weak minded, how many hours practicing, doing research, watching guides have you done before you quit? 2 hours?
There are new and young players that are up and coming that have to climb a wall to play at the highest level not just in real life but in games, competitive games like esports. They have the advantage of time and youth while veterans have the experience but they fight against time.
Maybe just maybe reflect on yourself first before you put all the blame on others.
@@Claude-Vanlalhruaia I go to video games to escape the real world, not to replicate it. Your point is not only insulting, but meaningless. I have to deal with enough crap in my real life to bother with the exact same shit while trying to unwind.
@@OmegaZyion Yeah, it might be insulting if you take it that way but nonetheless its the truth, you cannot really escape from truth, it will come back relentlessly and you have to face it one way or the other. And when you stand for yourself and face it even if you fall you build characters and the strength to get back up to face again but calling people "bully" when things don't go your way is a form of escapism that will have more harm to you in the long run.
If you want to temporarily escape reality, want to unwind and have a time of your own on video games my advice is don't play competitive nature like pvp because the very nature of it demands you to be better than others, to be competitive, to sink hours into practice, learning with tons of defeat which you need to be able to deal with. While it is extremely rewarding and nice to be a state where you are above average or even at the top percent, almost everyone else will be on the loser side just like in real life. Play casual games or casual side of a game because they generally offers instant gratifications but at the cost of being addictive.
This is why I switched from PVP to PVE servers on WoW early on. I started on PVP thinking it would be the more hardcore, rewarding experience. In fact, very rarely were any of my PVP encounters fair at all. It was either me getting ganked by a group of players significantly more powerful than me, or me doing the same to others. The chance of a fair, equal PVP encounter was virtually zero. Even in a 1 on 1 with similarly geared players, many matchups weren't fair due to class balance issues and the game not being balanced for 1 on 1 in the first place.
sounds like a failure of the game mechanics rather than the version of game you where playing.
My most cherished WoW memory during classic all those years ago was me leveling in Stranglethorn with my lvl 40-something toon only to be attacked by a lvl 60 troll warrior. Luckily I was a Paladin....and an engineer with a death ray. Popped my bubble and one shot him.
That said, PvP usually was just like you described it. Never fair, way too many gankers (like my troll friend) and simply not worth the time.
That moment you realise they first thing you look for in a Josh Strife Hayes video is what mug he's using :O
I like to believe that he only has one mug, from IKEA, but transmogs it for each video.
probably a single green cup, using green-screen effects with it.
@@dansharpe2364 Some might even say transmugs.
I now have the urge to compete with his mug collection since he flexes it.
That one where he said "to prove it to you, this mug is empty" started the mug train for me. Lol!
I actively avoid hardcore PvP focussed MMO's, it draws a crowd I personally do not get along with.
Ohoho I just realized an interesting structural idea thanks to your video. PvP lovers *claim they like the challenge.* Broadly, many types of games as you progress give you additional benefits (levels gear etc).
If you had a PvP focused game where, counterintuitively, your stats decrease as you get kills, this means you are incentivized to _actually git gud_ - good enough to fight and survive with 1/10th the stats.
This is something I enjoyed in Grimvalor, a souls-esque game. There's an achievement that requires you to beat the game without levelling up. I beat the game, then beat it on NG+ (all enemies exponentially stronger, more complex attack patterns) and then went for that level 1 run. I can honestly say it was one of the most challenging, fun, and rewarding experiences I've ever had playing a game - because I was actually _flexing my skills,_ not just equipment. Beating bosses with shit stats is genuinely gratifying.
So, I would posit that for people who enjoy challenges, having your stats decrease as you gain real life skill could practically serve as its own difficulty curve.
When they claim they like the challenge they usually mean the 'challenge' of making sure they win, be it by numbers, time and place of the engagement, or superior equipment.
Not all PvP'ers are like that, but far too many.
This man speaks truth, so many open world survival games and MMOs fundamentally don't understand the principals of competition.
or, you know, choose a game for your own liking. So many PvP games, that were supposed to cater to PvP players, were ruined by PvE players who wanted the game to become more PvE friendly after a while.
@@MonteKristof I agree, but 2 things can be true simultaneously, competitive gameplay can be hampered by a lack of effective pvp mechanics as well as unfair advantage as stated in the video. As I said, many pvp games don't understand competition and that covers it on both ends. When the game becomes designed for non competitive players it takes away from pvp elements, and when the game is to hard on new players it makes the game unfun and drives down the player base.
@@calaranisordo5709 I understand your points. That however heavily depends on the type of game. Star Citizen, for example, is a living and breathing universe, and nothing stops (nor nothing SHOULD stops) a player with a capital ships to go pirate someone in a "starter" ship. But there are no levels in SC, now health boost or nothing of the sort. Only ships and pilot skills. A "whale" that has a giant shil can be destroyed by a skillfull pilot in a mich smaller ship. That brings the question, should people with less skills be protected as well as they have a very clear disadvantage? My personal opinion is no. They should stick with groups and escorts and organize themselves to be protected until they get better at fighting.
Fair point, that sort of competitive gameplay is perfectly valid. It is also however extremely rare to see that sort of balencing. Take eve online for example, or ark survival evolved, or something equivalent. Most games promise the idea of players of great skill overcoming players with more resources but precious few ever deliver because that sort of idea is so hard to implement. It should also be noted that star citizen in particular is in its infancy and it has not reached the stage in which mega corporations or clans exist. In games like that what tends to happen is massive numbers of players join together and dominate everyone not a part of the group. Early on ark which is so well known for its mega tribes who keep everyone else from playing was an amazing game because of the equal playing field. But as time went on that disappeared and players left in droves.
@@MonteKristof There is one flaw in your concept: what is a new player to do when a group or escort is unavailable?
Too many pvp mmo games fall into a groove where there often aren't any groups for protection. This is not terribly uncommon, and can create environments where the barrier to entry is not just the price of the game, but also griefers. Some people will find this fun, but it does reduce the appeal to a more niche group.
This is a big problem. When a game becomes unwelcoming to new players, it will often slowly bleed players as people naturally stop playing, but also fewer new players enter. This can create a death spiral for a game, where you end up with tiny populations of die hard loyal players.
It's not all-or-nothing. There are many options between consensual pvp and hardcore pvp. Finding a balance can be very important for the longevity of the game, and the enjoyment of everyone.
Loss aversion hits me harder and harder the older I get. I’m not playing to win anymore, I’m playing to not lose, then that devolves further into a feeling of just wasting time.
I feel this. Every hear of Dead by Daylight? That shit is literally Loss Aversion: The Game.
Try to play to have fun. works better in my opinion.
It's why I stopped playing Dota 2 as I got older. If almost every match I played was half as good as the best matches I've played with my friends I'd make the time. Since my friends stopped playing though it's not worth dumping an entire evening to play solo que and end up stomping or getting stomped with randoms who aren't playing on the same wavelength.
@@Seoul_Soldier dbd is one of the worst games to play on daily basis, there are way better games out there than this.
I feel that mate. I just wanna hang with the boys, not worry about the eternal arms race.
What I love in PvP games is when it's a battle of the mind. Teasing and tricking your opponent to make mistakes. It's what I loved about Gwent, I haven't played it in ages, but when I use to it was so fun. It was like a dance.
Really depends on the game
There's also the fact hardcore PvP gamers are the "some are more equal than others" of the overall toxicity of hardcore gamers. So even if it's made well, a game that's sold entirely on the premise of HARDCORE PVP will *not* have a good community. And community is kind of essential to an MMO.
Excellent point.
That's actually the reason I'm really, _really_ glad they exist - anything that sucks awful people out of the games I actually *want to play* is a good thing, even if it's not something I would literally ever play.
@@NilesBlackX This is exactly why I praise LoL for existing.
Well.. There is community within the "hardcore pvp" circle of people thou.
@@nataliep6385 hardcore pvp players mostly do this to gain attention. they can only gain attention by larger communities. larger communities are more casual. casual players shy away from open pvp. the harcore pvp players leave if the casuals are gone.
thats how every pvp mmo dies and every pvp server in mmos dies out. its always the pvp environments that die first and quick while the casual pve environments are healthy for years or decades to come.
Well said. To be enjoyable to me PvP has to be fair, balanced and voluntary. It's always sad when a game _could_ be really good but then forces you into PvP situations that can accurately be described as gankers' paradise.
this isnt any games fault, its the nature of humans, even in competitive pvp games like lol, good chance in the first 5 minutes all 5 on one team will scour the map trying to pick up a kill on jungler, or mid lane.
@@shroomiestshroom3655 For the most part I have to disagree. While it certainly is the player who makes the call game design has a huge impact on what sort of behaviour "becomes the meta" and, ultimately, what type of player comprises what can be considered the core community.
For example, in a fair and balanced game those five players banding together looking for a cheap kill might get that kill or they might not, but in the process they are risking losing on every other front even against minimal opposition. If the other team has their shit together they can turn this opening tactic into a liability. In a hardcore PvP MMO there is no such drawback. Ganking is the meta without contest.
At the end of the day every game gets the community it deserves.
But there are game types for people like you. You can play MOBAs you can play BA's. There are MMOs that do not have open world pvp.
@@vitt4300 Absolutely. And there are games that go for the hardcore PvP MMO approach. What's your objection?
Albion online is the exact opposite of that.
I totally agree with you. I've always thought of PvP as a "bonus feature" inside a MMO's overarching theme. Something fun to play around with when you're tired of the main bulk of the game. It's a fun way to test who has the stronger combat build and on a minor scale who has better skill. When I started hearing about MMO games being made that focus on PvP I immediately thought "Well those games aren't going to last long" for all the reasons you've mentioned in your videos. Over time the game's fun-zone just dies because of that inevitable power gap. It's a cool idea though. It's just too bad the model just can't sustain players over a long period of time. MMOs by nature need to focus on PvE but have robust PvP options to keep the most players happy. Personally if I wanted to play something for the thrill of competition, I pick shooters. I pick fighters. I pick card and board games.
There is a difference between hardcore pvp and just pvp. You could make a PvP MMO. Hell, many have been fairly close. Classic WoW is basically a PvP MMO. It's just missing the systems to integrate PvP into the flow of the game. If they added PvP raids, it would basically be a PvP MMO
What you're referring would be closer to something like Warframe or Path of Exile where PvP was just a glorified dueling system.
Those two games have since introduced some actual PvP content, but it's still tiny by comparison.
@@wtn1670
Right but that's because Activision is a horrible company and Warcraft has NEVER been hardcore PvP, infact it was designed from the ground up to be more casual friendly than any MMORPGS that came before it and has been the most successful MMORPG to have ever existed based on that philosophy.
And Eve Online, even that game understands that its cooperation, not wanton murdering thats called "competition" is how you sustain a game for many years to come, it's basically a microcosm of humanity i.e. turns out organizing into collaboration with each other and discouraging mindless raiding (but rather planned out, thoughtful raiding) makes for functional societies or communities.
"Imagine playing Magic and your opponent has half the deck already on the board..."
Well let me introduce you to a few competition-illegal decks from my childhood
Childhood? It's still relevant today. "Thibalt's Trickery jank deck" - it doesn't work every time but when it does it makes the opponent weep.
@@korenn9381 had an ivory tower deck when I played 15-18 years ago. The entire point of the deck was to hold the deck.
@@CharlesCorbett yeah, I know - I had the same. But it would take you most of the game to get to that point. That doesn't really fit the 'the opponent starts with half their deck out".
Thibalt's Trickery gets your biggest, baddest summons on the board on turn 2., if the dice come up your way.
@@korenn9381 well no, ivory tower was combined with a few other exotic cards. With a half decent opening hand you could have the entire deck in your hand within a few turns. It just had cyclical draws, and then draws based on how many cards you had, etc. A similar deck I had did the same but with tokens, you would get so many tokens in play we had to track them on paper
@@korenn9381 pfft turn 2? How about vintage flash decks xD. Turn 0 win ftw
everytime a game says its towards hardcore players I shudder to think how shitty the player community will be and how bad the game will be overall
Schopping list for tomorrow:
- CR2023 holder from Flash (next to the market)
- Stanley Vise Pliers from Prakt (next to Gyula)
- Ballistol
i feel you there
whenever a competitive / hardcore player joins a casual server in any multiplayer games they instantly blame everyone for making small mistakes or not sticking to a plan. what the heck did they expect when it literally says *casual*
Same. "Hardcore" tends to mean shitty game design meant to inflate a select group's egos.
It's literally a breeding ground for elitist, and I'm simply too old to be dealing with people with mindsets like that.
@@allthatishere ego is in guardians of galaxy 2
This reminded how I wanted to be a miner in Albion but had to build a high-mobility and high-cc character just to escape the people who constantly tried to gank me in high level zones.
Albion is honestly its own thing. It's closer to Eve online than it is to WoW.
I remember creating a character in Asheron’s Call on Darktide, the PVP server. I was dead before I finished loading into the game. There were 4 level 100+ people camping the new player spawn point. One started to follow me until my immunity flag ran out.
I came here to make the same comment! Died instantly on spawn due to griefers in AC. Can you imagine being max level and just camping noobs? What sort of person does that?
@@wanderinghistorian incels usually
@@wanderinghistorian Dark Souls players.
@@OriaxHeloth found the anime pfp virgin who never beat a darksouls game cause your bloodline is too weak for some pixels on a screen
Exactly that. Some players defend the pvp-focus with "You have no reward for ganking lowbies, so why would you do that?", completely ignoring the fact that there are people that get reward from ruining other players days. It's not about fairness or skill, it's about abusing someone for whatever reason. As a person that does not enjoy killing someone like he is a critter or being overwhelmed by insurmountable odds, I cannot say WHY they do it, but to quote Alfred: "Some people just want to watch the world burn."
Please make it a running gag about whether you actually have tea in the mug. Kind of like the whole "will he trip or not" opening for the Dick Van Dyke show
@Clarissa Smith And now and again, there are space marines.
PvP can work in MMOs as long as there's
a) ranking system where you're going to match someone on "your level" and not whales who outgear you massively
or
b) standardized stats and access to all skills etc.
Unfortunately that usually means either players will go play the PvE portion of the game more, or if it's really PvP focused it won't be very popular.
OSRS also has a Mini Game call "LMS" where all players start out with Max combat and the same gear, after each round they only upgrade gear, until 1 Player remains.
You can play several "full games" in one hour.
And a brand new, day one player can join the Mini Game.
100% skill based, not perfect but a good way to learn PvP without costing you any in game supplies or money (gp).
Yeah it's honestly a better fairness to it, although a lot of the pvp formats are being taken advantage of. The wilderness (in his example, "single-way") is susceptible to clans swapping the participants of single-way and out-supplying you. Same as how clan wars in there go, there's a lot to it that violates his standards of fair play listed early on in the video.
I always think back to what happened on Atlas. Each group canalized each other group to form larger and larger zergs until you had China vs EU/NA. If you weren't part of one of the zergs then the zergs would kill you.
same with LiF MMO
Wow, I always had a hard time describing my feelings for pvp and you nailed it right on the head.
every time i speak out against full hardcore pvp, I get the obligatory "get gud" comment back.
Yeah, thts why these hardcore full open world pvp mmos die early. Trash toxic community and trash game design.
PvP is constantly the most toxic part of ESO, and now that im getting into WoW, ive seen it first hand there as well.
People get toxic because other people find it funny to come to a hardcore pvp mmo game that people love for what it is, start trashing it and demand it to be changed to their liking, as if there isn't enough WoW clones out there, and sometimes the devs begin to actually change the game to "reach broader audience". After which, it usually dies.
Well, if you play ESO you are not forced to do any PvP, there's a separate zone for that and when you enter by your own admission you are a target to enemies, doesn't matter what you like or want. Because it's PvP a simulation of the three banner war.
And, you have to get good unless you like dying a lot what is there to hate about that. That is applied to real world as well. The learning curve of PvP is MMORPG has always been one of the highest mainly because of hundreds of gears to choose, multiple classes, races, buff, etc. It takes time and practice, death is normal. Bantering, t-bag, trash talk,etc is all part of PvP because it's competitive and mental victory is just as important.
While there are some truly toxic players maybe you should look at yourself and maybe realized that PvP might not be for you instead of calling people toxic because you are bad at it.
Ironic the git gud comments are made by zergs or in video games that don't require skill and are rather a more complicated Brock paper scissors game.
Albion is an absolute trash fire once you're forced to go into red or black zones as you will never get a 1v1 and the zergs trash talk you as if they themselves did something spectacular.
pick 1) item drop / item degrade / full loot = supply and demand = crafting and gathering system that actually works
@@BlingBoyOto Yeah this is the usual song of Hardcore PvP players.
They will go around telling people to get gud, but the moment you would take them for a spin in something skill-based like Starcraft, they would break into tears cause they would have to play a game where they cannot throw their wallet at the screen, buy the best gear, get 10 other people (probably pay them to do so, seen this happen in EVE all the time) and bully you to death.
The skill worth of a Hardcore MMO player is rather low. But they sure will tell you that IRL you are sheit, while they themselves probably live in a basement with no future whatsoever.
ark is a great example of this. Some tribe be claiming multiple servers and if you don't join you get killed.
Even worse they create accounts to follow those who don't join them to grief them even if they switch servers. They're a problem type of player on multiple games.
Ark is what mmos should of became but with abit more rules lol
or just get good , you could have become better , also reaching a lot of follower with a streaming community that farm everything you need for you , then hack the game to erase their character ....but nahh you decide to lose . they would say ;)
Which is why I like that Rust servers reset a min of once a month. It keeps the big clans from locking down multiple servers. Some even more often, weekly or bi- weekly. Everyone is basically back to square one depending on if it was a full force wipe or just a server map wipe.
@@voidmantis9133
Is this an joke? Please tell me it is.
Zerging or whatever it's called is why i quit Albion online. I enjoyed it immensely until i reached the point where progressing requires going into the pvp zones and going into those zones went sth like this:
>Stash all gear aside from a cheap mount and gathering tools
>Go to pvp zone
>Gather for 2 hours
>Go back to the portal
>Encounter a group of people, having a faster mount means i outrun them but these groups have 1 player with a fast mount and only cc spells so the others can catch up.
>Get caught and lose all progress, if you're lucky they will give you the basic loot and once they gave me all my stuff but only once
>Repeat
Needless to say it got old after a week
The game is pretty awesome. But you gotta join a guild to learn how to play.
@@emmanuelsampaio4687 no
@@emmanuelsampaio4687 Even if you use the best skill to escape, there is still a change to get fucked. and is nothing more annoying than being force into pvp. And the fact that you have to wear weak armor 90% of the game is just shity ( plus the limited mount pool).
Pvp is always unbalanced in MMO’s either because of gear differences or overpowered classes. But my issue with open pvp games is that I can’t opt out of it if I want to play the game. I’ll have to deal with roaming death squads that I can’t do anytginf about.
I don’t mind pvp when I’m in the mood for it but if a game forces it on me in the open world then I just won’t play the game. Certain games looked fun (Black Desert comes to mind) but are an automatic pass for me because you can’t opt out of open world pvp. Once you reach a certain point it gets toggled on and there’s nothing you can do, in my opinion that’s stupid.
You're not missing much by skipping out on BDO. The character creation is the best part of the game. Once you make your character you may as well just uninstall because you've completed to only part of the game worth doing. Because it is so pvp focused the pve side is non-existent, and even for those who don't mind open world pvp, the game is essentially pay to win because the person who drops hundreds of dollars on the cash shop can get the things needed to upgrade gear and thus increase their characters power 100000x faster than the player who wants to play for free.
pick 1) item drop / item degrade / full loot = supply and demand = crafting and gathering system that actually works
People shouldnt be scared to pvp. Its toxic to avoid pvp like the plague and i think its a big issue in gaming today. Bdo is a dog shit game but the pvp in that game is good but its definitely unbalanced due to gear letting you one shot people but in reality you can still absolutely enjoy the game and grinding without getting wrecked badly in pvp. To not play the game because pvp is toggled on is silly and you should try it, you might be surprised. Just know theres a lot of p2w issues with that game and gear enhancing system and the gear gap.
@@Xxhermitxxrs How so? Why is it bad to avoid PVP?
@@Khalith because you're missing out on half the game. why do that? the learning curve isn't that bad and once you get it down it will be fun. people who actively don't want to pvp seem to be the majority of people who play mmos and it sucks that the pvp community is always a minority for every game i play. its a lot of fun.
The core harcore pvp mmo fan is the ones i tend to not get along with when speaking to people about mmo's. They never seem to get it.
A few years ago I would have firmly placed myself into the group that probably despised you for holding that opposing view, but since those days have passed I'll just give you my two cents. Games like the above described are generally the only ones where players are going to role-play by accident. When a pvp mmo is done well, it's a game where none of the roleplaying is forced. I don't care if some kids wants to roleplay as a dragon man, or write fantastical stories about his character. I just don't. 98% of players are going to ignore RPG fluff and that's just the way it is. In an mmo where players are forced to work together or lose, players will assume roles to support the war effort, some will lose, others will become well known heroic figures to their peers, and it's all via non-forced unscripted interactions with other players. This in my opinion should have been the end goal of MMO design, to create worlds where players accidentally roleplay the same way that hardcore pvp focused games do, but the unfortunate reality is that this genre was pruned off and replanted long before we could get any better ideas out of it. So we have a bunch of pvp sandbox clones and a bunch of boring theme parks and the next best thing is anyone's guess. Josh's criticisms are all valid. These games can't be competitive in a fair sense and of course that's true. These games are also generally toxic. But I don't think people play PVP mmos for fair competition. The ability to rise to truly be a villainous empire in a game, or fight back as a heroic rebellion, is intuitive to human behavior and it's why people have gotten so addicted to this games long term.
that´s becuse they are the type of people that is me me me me me and everything is about them and they are the best in the world and they are a bit of F-up in the head and get´s a hard on for killing people and always wining.
what you call them is narcissistic people with a tendency to get enjoyment destroying the fun for others.
They never will understand becuse they don´t want to or care about you becuse it´s always about them.
Just talk to them about skill based match making in general is enough to make them lose it.
Lets be clear here also, i like pvp mmo's. I just hate the hardcore pvp'ers for simple reasons. They are usually the ones who gank noobs for no reason, roll in packs of 20 people just because and steam roll a person fishing. Those people i genuinely and whole heartly dispise. Im all for some open world pvp, just none of the above and if youre one of those people, well im not going to like you. Yall always have similar characteristics aswell. One of those people youre self concious in real life and are compensating. Fact.
@@jonathansoko1085 There's a demographic of those people for sure. No one I know really behaves like that in sandbox games but they definitely exist.
Just here digging the UT2004 footage in the background. Those were fun times, although I haven't played it for 16 years.
"Unban Birthing Pod"
Aight mate, I can agree with almost everything in this video but THAT is the hottest take you've spat out yet.
if Birthing Pod didn't have phyrexian mana it would be much less meta-defining, at least in environments where things like Oko don't exist
This was exactly why I and my friends stopped playing Rust, we just couldn't put in the hours that other players could and even if we had a great start it wouldn't matter, eventually we would get wiped by bigger or better equipped groups that never leave the server
Two games that sort of solve that problem: EVE Online and Warhammer Online.
In EVE, better ships and equipment were exponentially more expensive than slightly weaker ones, so a bunch of cheap ships could realistically destroy a ship worth over 100 times as much. Destroyed stuff was permanently lost. Although EVE does have the blobbing problem you mentioned where it's ridiculously hard to get into a fair fight because each side won't commit until they think they have an advantage.
Warhammer Online had the scenario system. You queued up, and it transported a bunch of players into a capture map instance where they formed 2 teams that were theoretically equal. Everyone who was under the max level for that tier got their stats boosted to the max level. One big problem though was that the boost didn't account for gear or skills, so the higher level people still had the advantage. The other big problem is that...the game is dead :(
I wouldn't call the soul level system "fair" in Dark Souls. It also didn't take equipment into account and it was ridiculously easy to cheese as you had all those level 1 pyromancers running around with max enchanted equipment. There's also the fact that a majority of PvP in DS1 takes place in the forest, where the entire soul level match system is tossed right out the window.
I tend to hate PvP in MMOs because I never play MMOs to fight other players; I play to play WITH other players. If I wanted to play against players constantly I'd play a shooter or something like that.
Yeah, more casual PVP arean styled games were you just hope in for a few rounds is perfectly fine, but some PVP mmo game that requires months and years of investing that can be lost in the blink of an eye cause you had the audacity of existing near a sweaty pvper just sounds like an absolute drag to me.
Now it'd be one thing if the pvp stuff was like some big grand end game thing, like say guilds forming large massive forts and castles, bases, etc etc, and have large scale battles, cause that would be fun to tag along for. A whole big group effort with everyone armed to the teeth and charging into a massive battle.
But just getting constantly ganked by some bored sweat wanting easy kills is any fun at all. I'd dare say they're the most deserving of 'carebear' status because of that in fact.
They don't want a challenge, they want guaranteed victories against other players handed to them on a conveyor belt with no challenge what so ever.
Thank you!
I've felt this way about PvP is most MMO scenarios for a long time.
i never took you for someone that likes the old command and conquer games, but i am pleasantly surprised, since i am/was pretty involved in the german community and always love to see other people enjoy the games i love
Ive seen so many "open-pvp everywhere anytime" come and go, seems like they never learn.
Thanks for clearing up the what's in the mug mystery. Since the last video's #mugflex I can't watch a video without wondering if your flexing your incredible mug collection or actually enjoying a beverage. Keep up the fantastic work!
I don't feel comfortable joining many MMOs that's been out for a while because the veterans aren't friendly to new players. Some are of course, but can't ever get anywhere.
That whole "playing a game when the outcome is already known" is why I rage-quit Overwatch. When your team can't even get out of the spawn area for the whole map, having to do "one more round" is just insulting.
Meanwhile that one game i play : your chances of winning the pvp is based on how much you spend on the game, and most importantly how much fps you have. Anything below 90fps and your chance of winning is smaller than me getting a girlfriend
Let me guess, BDO?
BNS? BDO? lol
@@LFRUIZ15 yeps bdo ahahah
@Rias Gremory not much, just a faster animation, more precise animation cancels, and somewhat faster attackspeed/casting speed (5-10% i think)
BDO was the 'first' game that came to mind when he started talking about 'unbalanced'. If you're a newer player, you can't even quest in some areas because some higher lvl/geared player is 'grinding' for even stronger gear.
Much like social media monetizing antisocial behavior and groupthink, a lot of games monetize bullying. It's pretty straight forward and I don't see it changing.
This is probably my biggest worry of New World right now. They seem to really want to make the factions, territory control, and thus pvp really important to everyone. It's just so hard to balance that I'm afraid it's going to ruin the game for everyone that chooses the wrong faction early on in the game for their server.
You guys won't stop til pvp is removed eh?
@@Reav00 I don't want it removed I just don't want it to be something a whole game is designed around. Especially when factions are mandatory and the focus for that PvP. If territory control was company only thing only in certain zones I think it would work. But balancing stuff like this extremely hard in a fair and rewarding way for a lot the reasons explained in this video.
@@AlexSage91 lol .............
@@AlexSage91
"The spine of the game is player versus player combat. You’ll probably be murdered in New World."
-Patrick Gilmore, Game Director
@@thecivilmerc9898 I feel like the game has changed a lot because that market wasn't as viable as they thought since that quote was made.
ESO found a good balance for this. The open-world PVP zone, Cyrodiil, is divided into instanced "Campaigns", which reset every so often. So you get the long term planning and feeling of accomplishment from winning territory, and the even playing field because it resets.
Eso does so many things right, its pretty amazing
ESO's pvp is trash pasta lol
I have to admit, my experience with PVP is mostly a high level player wondering through a newbie zone and killing everyone without taking any damage. It's also usually the moment I stop playing, because... why?
Same, it is the reason I stopped playing mortal online. A bunch of vets would just be sitting at the gate, waiting for new players to leave so that they can kill them
Easy solution for this kind of problem would be bounty system that would forever increase. You killing opposite faction low level players puts a bounty on your head that opposite faction players could collect. More you kill, higher it goes. Eventually someone will come and take you out because reward is too good to pass! You could also add a penalty when killed in bounty state. What i mean by that is: You lose something valuable when killed. Higher your bounty more you also lose when killed.
Dont remember what game used system like that but, griefing was rare or non existant.
@@rockmcdwayne1710 sounds like an exploitable system, make a sacrifical alt so the penalty when killed as a bounty is irreleavant, and then either on a main account or with a friend, rack up the kills/bounty then cash in on the character you want. all the whilst keeping an eye out for the newbs to increase that exploit reward/per time even more!
@@idminister It could be patched up with the loot being the currency of the account of the criminal even if they store it in a bank it will be deduced
I play Albion online, my guild [SlamDunk] is not small but not too big, and we are a new player-focused guild. so most of our players are not that skilled. around 1 and a half years ago we were in a smaller ally called Dune, and we ended up being at war with some of the biggest guilds in the game. we knew there where no chance of winning so we made it our goal to keep hitting their backline and forcing their players to deal with us allowing others push them back in other places. and even tho Dune disbanded after that season we were a pain for a lot of bigger guilds.
I think albion balances well. First its not hard to get to a weapon or armor to high level. Plus the more people who attack one person the weaker the attackers attacks are.
Hello Dune player
I was in POE, to be more specific CIR when we evicted you.
God bless :pray:
@@Durateen Cool!
I used to play Albion, it was a spiral of frustration tbh.
@@mothurman Is that a new feature? Cause last time I played a POE chased my guild down of 10 people with 100 people and still murdered us...
Definitely more fun when fair. The gear disparity is what really gets me. It feels awful to lose to a player who you can tell is less skilled than you, but wins by virtue of being able to play more (or just gets luckier) and thus has better gear. WoW tried to fix this in Legion (I think) with a buff that gave everyone pre-set scaled stats to try and even the playing field.
I agree with this perspective entirely. When I game, I don't want to risk being murdered repeatedly by crazy power gaps with different players. It's why I gravitate towards single player games, or games where PVP is either optional or bound to specific zones. Always active pvp games mean there is no safe place for new players to gain equal power to the veterans, and become a race to the top, where none of the top players fight each other (out of fear of losing their best stuff). Some games try to have their cake and eat it with a system wherein when you hit a certain level, pvp always is on after that, but I have actively quit games like that because I don't want to engage in constant PvP. PVP in mmos should ALWAYS be optional.
I just really don't enjoy PvP in general, so I would never play a PvP-only MMO. Because I don't enjoy it, I almost never do it. Because I almost never do it, I am terrible at it. Because I am terrible at it, I don't want to ever do it unless I absolutely have to. The only time I've engaged in PvP and even remotely enjoyed it is when I did so with a few friends at very low levels in WoW years ago, when we were sort of playing "baby characters" or WSG or AV, or when I went with a guild to Cyrodiil in ESO. Even then, it gets old for me pretty quickly.
same. the only time i do it is when i'm forced to during invasions from other players in Dark Souls. i don't have a whole lot of time to play video games as much as i used to, so i'm never gonna be as good as some guy who plays that game for 24 hours a day. and i have no interest in constantly getting rekt while i'm trying to unwind and destress.
I feel that brother. I have kept my skills up in PvP, but it just doesn't give me the same satisfaction as raiding with the boys does, or seeing cool areas in a game, or helping a new player get some gear. That shit is fun to me. Wish there were more PvE/Sandbox-focused MMOs.
Absolutely agree! I want to enjoy the adventure and story a game provides. I don't want to keep watching for the next ganker while going about doing my thing.
I don’t mind some ‘asymmetric’ pvp/competition, as long as each sides win conditions are appropriate to the differences(bigger side needs more caps/kills, smaller side needs less time on points to cap, etc). What I absolutely loathe is the open world gank trains.
This is a phenomenal video. While I absolutely love games such as albion online, the pvp is a mess even on the best of days.
Not only is player count or gear more important than strategy in raw numbers, you run the risk of encountering someone whose build completely trashes your build and there is no counterplay you have available to use.
You could plan out faction warfare with your friends and very carefully and tactically conquer territory from a faction and then said faction sends a group of twice as many players in literally the best gear available and you end up habing lost more land than you started with.
I understand that these are the risks associated with pvp but another large part of the problem is the community, who when asked if the experience is fair either responds with "dont engage with it if you dont like it"(which doesnt work since its a core design element) or "git gud", because they know its not fair, they just dont help improve fairness because it would hurt them.
I played albion too and true if you're want to get gud, build only specifically for pvp, because pve monster is joke and some job only work on pvp, and that need heavy investment and cannot doing alone
It's funny you pretty much summed up what I call the difference between actual pvp and just pointless ganking. All the games that you listed I would agree actually work at having balanced pvp. The problem is get a "so called hard core pvp fan" to admit it. Huge example Air/Elyon lord if I truly care is set to release soon. It's so called selling point is open pvp. By month two there will be no pvp. There will be ganking. By month three there is very likely to be a large bleed off of players tired of having to get 6 people just to go whack at a tree. But instead of being rational and admitting that the model fails in the West they will instead insult everyone they possibly can. They will scream how they are all care bears and then go find the next game to put in the ground.
The saddest thing is that in these games country of origin this is not how the pvp works. I speak from experience as I've played many Korean, Chinese etc. betas. This in no small part has to do with the difference in cultures. For Western gamers, gaming is asocial. We sit behind screens and in all likelihood will never see the face of the people we play with. In Korea they play in monster internet cafes/arcades. They actually know these people. They know their families and kids. If they acted like the standard Western player they would become a social outcast. Add to this that they actually God forbid teach their children real morals and values. None of these by the way are the Western you are special because you have a pulse approach. By all means, if you get the chance go try one of the toys in its native country.
One of my favorite examples Lineage 2. I was one of the lucky smucks in the Korean beta. I literally more than once had entire groups of reds walk right by me as if I wasn't there. You see they had gone red in a guild battle. To them the idea of just randomly lashing out at anyone in their way didn't make any sense. The self same game releases in the West. Inside of two months it's got a huge bad rep as a grief fest. The only thing your sure of is some high level dork will spend his entire day doing everything he can to make sure you don't have any fun. This was the very real belief about the game. Sadly they weren't wrong.
Final thoughts the very word versus implies competition. But these "so called hard core players" avoid that at all cost. They don't want a fight. They want a victim. The very best way to not get attacked by them is to actually look like a fight. I wish this where the saddest point. But it's not. The saddest point is that they really don't care that they just about kill everyone of these games they show up in. Thanks to the confused notion that pvp is king every game and it's brother now has "open pvp." So they'll just move on. The developer will make the micro-transactions ultra predatory to compensate and Walla dead game 394. Why is this truly sad is that there was actually allot of love put into these projects. But because of one pointless mechanic it mite as well not have ever existed.
Agree!!!!
I used to play an mmo in singapore a decade ago and I've never again experienced a community as friendly and welcoming. I always wondered why, but it all makes sense now.
Has nothing to do with morals in the west (plenty of countries that value family highly in europe). Korean players are just used to grinding and such so even the casuals end up playing those games and thus they have a higher and healthier playerbase. PC bangs are a factor but also that you have to sign up accounts with your real personal information and that they have fucked up laws that can fine you in real life for boosting/cheating and whatever else.
Frankly, I don't want to kill other players. I'd rather help them.
u can help them to find their grave :)
Co-op>PvP
Same. It's a lot more fun for me to make a new friend by going on a grand adventure with a complete stranger and helping them along while showing them all the glorious sights of the game than to just kill them and just have some (likely) unsatisfactory pvp.
People don't realize how important helpful players are. You know what the best way to balance ganking is? Have anti-ganking guilds that go and hunt down the gankers.
@@Zexi141 I’d say the best way would be to not have ganking in the game. People who tend to gank tend to be pretty toxic and end up running people out of games. That happens enough times the game gets a bad rep and people either don’t play or just start leaving which would kill the game. I wouldn’t expect people to dedicate their play time to stopping people from being dicks instead of enjoying the time they get to play.
This is the most balanced video I've ever watched. Keep up the amazing quality!
Meanwhile, in EVE Online... it’s just Mad Max all the way through.
Eve online tends to have some of the worst PvP. Fighting anywhere near equal footing is extremely rare. It's all pain train N+1 fights, bubble camps to get solo players, roamers to get solo players, and outright griefing.
@@TheGerrok as it should be. Dont forget to buy your mining permit
And it’s great. Although I have specialised in hotfooting out of predicaments rather than fighting.
@@d33pblu3 It was okay when I had the time to do it, but I don't have the luxury of long periods of uninterrupted gaming anymore. Eve isn't designed for someone that can't dedicate large blocks of time to doing something. I packed it in after they changed conduits into some bogus PvP bait mechanic.
@@TheGerrok yeah most of the lads at the endgame are ether retired or have mostly passive income. But at the lover levels it’s still somewhat fun if you have a good corp.
I totally agree with you. Once I found an MMO I loved (Aion). It looked great (at the time) and played great. I knew there was PVP but it seemed to only be in certain areas so I wasn't bothered by the thought of it. I was very wrong. Once you hit level 50, the game changes how it works and now when you step out of any town you are in a full pvp zone. Everytime I left town, I'd get jumped by 5+ guys from the other faction and couldn't get a damned thing done. I quit that game, such a shame.
There was never once an open world PvP mode in any MMO that was even remotely fair, balanced or fair for both sides. That is impossible.
No worries, Dreamworld has both fair and unfair PvP
reminds of that time in wow where I was doing pvp and a paladin was just standing there getting hit by 5 players including me because he had pvp gear, normal player couldn't get any dmg through because he healed after each minute to full health. so I gave up and just sat beside the paladin...
All it would have taken was any other class in max level gear and they would have pooped on that pally, because it sounds like the type of pally you ran into was a Ret pally haha
I agree with everything said here - in game dev we have a term for these snowballing effects and countermeasures - Positive and Negative Feedback Loops - Positive Loops reward victory (or punish failure) and Negative Loops reward failure (or punish victory)
From a technical design perspective, there are no negative feedback loops in hardcore mmos, only positive ones, so there's nothing to help the player for making mistakes and learning, and if they're punished for not knowing the game... they're just gonna leave.
It's one of the reasons Mario Kart always gives better items to the players at the back of the race...
''You and me in a battle of skill and wits..''
Has 3 skills on his bar.
Love your content bro
lololol
ESO's combat in a nutshell. I love this game for everything except 2 things: Combat design, and world leevl scaling. Seriously, you can beat every single solo boss in the game with 1 ability and autoattacks, its that easy.
@@easylivinglife6284 yea , people complain it wasnt skyrim so they made it that way :( . Also it was boring to not be able to coop with friend so the pve was singleplayer unless you have a character that you use only when your friend is online just to play with him . Now with the scaling atleast i can be max lvl and still have fun when helping my low lvl friend . But yea it should have been harder anyway , like combining our full force instead of maybe spaming a aoe to win . It also make us able to go everywhere we wanted despite lvl , making them able to sell dlc to new player ;) ... so basicly it had to be this way , but it should have been harder .
@@voidmantis9133 for harder content they made vet dungeons and trials
@@s.c.2180 thats not a reason to make the 90% of the game way too ez , just a bit more difficut like... being normal instead of ez
I like how you don't see the appeal of these games. There's a very specific, very pathetic type of gamer that wants to beat up people smaller than themselves over and over and over again. I like that that concept is foreign to you, you'd be very welcome in one of my guilds.
To be fair, that's not the only reason to like these types of games. I used to play a lot of Archeage and I always really enjoyed being able to outskill someone with better gear than me. I also loved large battles and the dynamic nature in which they could take place. Sure, I engaged in noob hunting stuff too but that was a necessity encouraged by the game's mechanics (killing people in war zones got you points to buy special gear and stuff).
There is a point to be made though that these types of games tend to encourage a very toxic community of people, many of whom can act like you've said here.
the more I watch this video, the more I'm reminded of that weird C&C game that came out years ago called Tiberium Alliances. It was a C&C themed online city builder where players could form clans and war with each other. The goal of the game was to reach the center of the map. Eventually a substantially powerful clan was formed on the server called Necromongers or something. They took the center of the map and just roamed their base around attacking low level players and essentially wiping out their infrastructure so no one could ever even come close to the center of the map ever again. It didn't help that most of them spent ludicrous amounts of money on the pay-to-win features of the game.
I played it as a kid and just remember feeling absolutely shafted the first time some dude with a max level city sacked my small outpost and destroyed all my shit
People who enjoy hardcore pvp MMOs don't want challenge or skill, they want to use their level and gear advantage to bully new players until they quit so they can feel like they "own the game" with their other brain dead friends/guildmates doing the same thing. Look at Mortal Online or Darkfall, the latter of which was killed by this.
It is always these people who complain and hurl insults and even slurs when the playing field is level, as well. They begin threatening not to play anymore and since they are basically holding the game hostage by not allowing new players to actually play, they use this as leverage to get their way. It attracts people who aren't looking for competition, it attracts people who are simply hateful, spiteful and cruel. People who just want to make other people suffer with no danger of retribution.
Like all those who have been hurling insults at Hardcore PvPers in these comments? Ever heard of the pot calling the kettle black? You make broad generalisations based on no or skewed data. Most actual PvP'ers are not in fact like that, not those I have ever played with.
Let me make this clear, if it is a Hardcore PvP MMO and you do not like Hardcore PvP DONT PLAY IT. It really is THAT simple. Hardcore PvP games are almost always based around GROUP play, not solo. The way to get ahead is to join a group. The vast majority of the time if you play solo you are simply going to get crushed.
Take Eve Online. It is literally designed from the ground up to be played as part of a group. Being in a Player run Corporation is flat out encouraged. Most of Null Sec is run By Player Alliances and Coalitions of Alliances. While it is possible, playing Eve Online Solo is not easy. But it is not designed to be played Solo.
So those brain dead friends/guildmates are playing most hardcore PvP MMO's the way they are supposed to be played, in GROUPS. If you want to play one, find a group, or die. Because frankly the brain dead ones are those who complain about Herdcore PvP MMOs without REALISING they are almost all based around group play. Then whining about it.
"It's like a kid taking on a grandmaster"
*Looks at Misha Osipov*
Vordt of the Boreal Valley starts playing
We should all take some time to appreciate the masterpieces of games sitting behind Josh. A true man of taste
This is a great video. I played a lot of lineage 2 when I was a teenager, and that game was way more fun in private servers than in the official servers. That happened because the way the game was designed, powerful clans will snowball and get so powerful that you couldn’t compete with them. So usually clans would jump from private server to private server and try to get ahead, when a clan won (meaning it was controlling all the high value farming area and bosses, there were no instances in that game) the server died and it was time to move to the next new one. But the first two three months where always really fun, I couldn’t find anything like that in any other mmorpg
Something that came to mind while I was watching this was that most "hardcore PVP" players don't actually enjoy the PVP part of it, or at least it's not the primary focus of their enjoyment while playing. Every time I've heard someone wax poetically about them, it's not about how great the combat system is or anything related to the actual PVP, it's about how the experience of being in the world and it's dangers is exhilarating and makes the world feel "more real", the sense of danger knowing an unwinnable battle "might" be coming gets them more invested. There's also the people that get a kick out of being the king of the hill with no one able to challenge them, but not many will admit it.
That's fine if it's what you enjoy, nothing wrong with that, but Hardcore PVP MMOs are only enjoyable *if* you primarily enjoy that aspect. Every other aspect, both PVE and fair PVP, are made worse by it, so you end up with a playerbase that selects itself to people that specifically enjoy trying to gain/avoid unfair advantages against each other, which ends up usually being toxic and extremely unfriendly to new players.
Yeah in example by MO - near everyone talks about fear of being gank banged (or any other thing like that) and near noone praise it for fighting. This shitty fighitng system allowed them to run a company for over 10 years
@@ladrok97 What MMO doesn't have a shitty fighting system? Even the best MMO fighting system is awful compared to the worst action games. Thats what MMOs are all about... the world and interactions with other players. The combat systems are always garbage, people simply tolerate them because they enjoy the MMO aspect.
For me, it’s all about trying to become one of those badass “cowboy walks into a bar” or dynasty warrior types. It’s the simulation of the whole “I know kung fu so if you mug me you’re in for trouble!” type situation.
Here's a real world example. Back in college me and my friends loved to go to the street court and play basketball. We did it all the time. We sometimes played against other regular college students too. Great fun. One day, several guys from the college basketball team (NCAA) came and wanted to play and insisted on being on the same team against us. It was like playing against people who could literally fly. You see that crap on TV, it's totally different to try and actually play against these people. I think the final score was 30 - 0. It wasn't fun because it was clear 2 minutes into the game that we didn't stand a chance.
I have to ask; is that Tetris mug one of those heat-reacting ones? As in, do the lines disappear when you pour hot beverage into it?
Damn you. Now I have Korobeiniki stuck in my head. I hadn't noticed the mug.
Loved this video, but all the way through I was just thinking... Man, I miss Command & Conquer.
reminds me of this yu-gi-oh game i played with a friend. he managed to summon 4 monsters including a fusion monster on his first turn and all I could do was put a monster in defence mode. after he attacked i was down from 8000 life points to 1200.
i just quit and never played again. what's the point in even trying if an opponent can just completely annihilate you before you even start having fun.
you either:
was playing a shit deck
opened a shit hand
has a skill issue
don’t worry, we’ve all been there
Ranked is all fun and games untill its swarmed with smurfs and you are back to the same situation.
It could be said that some "Hardcore PvP MMO's" are actually empire building games. Involving gaining power through PvE and manipulating it in diplomacy/PvP. The difference being while the game has PvP it is not the focus but rather a piece of the game.
Don't forget sites like battle metrics: People can sign up to get text notifications when you, or any member of your group, log out, so they can only attack when you're offline. At least in any game with base building.
The biggest problem with PvP sandboxes is.. They aren't actually PvP. Players fight in the most indirect, weasily ways. They do anything BUT play the game and look for an opponent. They'll spend all week hunting for a reddit post about the next duplication glitch, then spend 5 minutes attacking someone who is offline, or who they lagged out with a poorly coded chatbox somehow, then get some kind of idea that they're elite.
As a 3 time world champion of 3 different PvP games back in my heyday, I'll tell you a little secret.. The reason TOURNAMENTS have rules is that, if you can only win by stooping to a ruleset nobody else will use.. It's because you aren't actually good. Just more desperate for a number to go up than your opponents.
At 6:25 when you said 'Desire to win,' you were killed by someone named Desiree lmao
Desiree to win, Josh to lose
your work rate is insane
3 vids a week, 2 days per vid. Its a full time job and ill treat it as such.
@@JoshStrifeHayes I respect the grind
I dont know i played alot of darkfall back in the day it was still the most fondest memories i have of MMO gaming, the roaming for other players and the uncertaintity of the fights is what drove me, a fair fight was far in between but when they happened it was truly magic and sides could fight for days, i have never been that engaged in any other MMO since what you do doesnt end up mattering to anyone, its all up to you the player, things dont have to be fair there just have to be mystery about the outcome.