If I may. I've spent the last ten years in sales and only two in photography. I can tell you that people buy the experience and the story they see themselves in. 1: Definitely meet with your clients 2: Explain the process including editing. 3: Think of them as family and offer what you think is cool. 4: Under Promise and Over Deliver. 5: After the shoot ask them what was their favorite part. 6: Always use their name. Always. Just my two cents. 🥂
As a customer, I do not agree. 1 : we are in a life that do not leaves us a lot of time. I do not have time to spend meeting with a provider to discover that I can not afford it. I meet the provider if I think it is going to be the right one. You do not visit houses that you cannot afford do you ? 2 : i do not like when I do not have all data in hand to have a first point of view quietly at home. I fear the provider is going to use some sales tricks on me that are going to biais my decision if I do not have all the data in advance and I want my primary decision to be out of any kind of pressure. 3 : I feel that not giving price list is a kind of posh attitude saying « I’m so exclusive. Not everybody deserve me » So if no price list, I run away 😄
e JB I understand your position, but if you notice I didn't mention not to offer an idea of your pricing. My intention is to suggest to make a connection with your clients and having a conversation about what they need. Each client is different, but if you have a good relationship with them you get a feel for what they are comfortable with. At the end of the day if you hire any professional your going to have to talk to them about price and they will always offer additional services. 🥂
You can walk into a Lexus, Merc or Bentley dealership (or their website) and get a starting price and list of options for anything on the lot without talking to anyone. As others have stated, this is an outdated approach. Clients don’t want to invest a bunch of time in you just to find out they can’t afford you. There’s plenty of other creatives in the market that WON’T give them the run around for simple information. Your value should’ve been pretty well conveyed on whatever platform got the potential client to contact you...otherwise they wouldn’t have reached out. Our booking rate increased drastically when we started giving clients the info they want up front. Either we fit their budget and continue the conversation towards a booking, we don’t fit their budget and they adjust accordingly, or we don’t fit their budget and they continue their search elsewhere. Regardless, they have the information they need to make that decision.
Stating "starting points" is not a no-no, this video is specifically about sending out detailed price lists that document complete packages when you don't know what package/product they need. I'll address this in a follow up. This isn't about holding back information or giving them the runaround. It's the opposite.
@@payamjirsa I understand, but the brands you mentioned have car configurators right on their site that give you an instant price for anything they sell. If your example brands make it that simple and consumers have grown to expect things to be that simple, why not keep it that simple?
I agree with everything in this video! When I first started out, I was so quick to give a price because I just wanted to get the customers business so I would have more work to showcase faster. As my portfolio expanded, I started discussing different options with my clients before giving a price which is absolutely the way to do it. I like the car analogy, never thought about it that way. Great stuff ‼️
that totally depends on the place you live.. in my country.... the one, which doesnt have at least a pricepoint, loses.. nobody calls you, when they dont even can check in front.. same for me.. i do my research first, dont i see a price, i dont call.. this is what the website is for.. you can use your website to show your work, show your customer feedbacks and create not only interest, also build up trust and then with no issue set a pricepoint, even when its only an hour fee.. it has to be there
You are seeing this from only one perspective, your own. In your country, there are plenty of people that spend varying amounts on various products. They all have different shopping practices from one another. Some hop on the phone, others don't. Some shop on the web, others want in-person experiences. But, I address each of these within our business series, in the meanwhile, I'll create another video for you guys to answer some of these other questions.
@@keloduma you are saying absolutely positively no one does this? Do you think there might be 5, or 2, or maybe just 1? I would seek out those who have managed to crack the pricing code. I will give you a little secret. People who are not looking for the cheapest solution spend more money with you, refer more new clients, and take up less time.
I was about to email my 1st price list . Just checked out , UA-cam for the last time . Fortunately came to this video . Thanks you so much sir . This helped really a lot .
I'm a photographer that is also planning to book a wedding photographer for my own wedding. Once I view their work and verify that they can at least pull off and handle a certain shot, I want price information. If they were to come back with questions on what I'm looking for, I have no problem discussing that, but I also want pricing information ASAP to not waste my or their time.
100% agree and more times than not you leave money on the table by supplying a price list that do not take into account what the job entails. Upon hearing your clients needs you are giving them a customized experience. Who doesn't want something to be customized to them?
@@eladbari why not? Do you want to set yourself far out front of everyone else or just hang with the pack? You don't have to physically meet them, however that is the most beneficial move you can make to grow your business; dare I say more important than gear. Make a commitment to have a pre-shoot meeting with 2 out of 10 clients this year and I can practically guarantee your print sales will double.
@@jasoncollins4088 how does finding new clients for shoots [fashion, in my case], for, say, an editorial, will increase my prints sale? Two different products. Even if this was about wedding photography. 1. I wrote that not every photographer could list pre-made prices. Weddings look more or less the same. So you could give an estimate. An editorial for a magazine vs. an editorial for a big clothing brand- would be complete opposites [price-wise]. You can't put prices of that on your website.
How do you go from an email asking about your prices to a meeting when you dont own a studio? Thats my struggle and the reason I thought competitive prices and responsive time was better than trying to call up a meeting.
Pye very interesting video and approach to client communication. what to do when clients don't have time and don't want to meet and talk. They just want the prices. In my country don't many people want to meet with photographers for talk about the service and product they want. they are only interested in the price. thanks
I whole hearty agree with you on this. Many good photographers are not a good business people, vise versa not all the good business photographers are great photographers. Rather than fighting with one low price based customer pool select the right one you want to target, sell, give your service Without knowing the individual needs, style, end results offering a price information is not tailored solution
Good day from Tampa Florida, I hope you are well! Really good tips... most informative and relative content that I've heard in weeks :-) Stay encouraged!!!
Car salesman have a difficult job selling cars to people with very little money (think ford etc) the secret is selling cars to people for whom money/cost isn't the issue, people will pay crazy money to get what they want. Convince them you can provide what they want, job done!
In an ideal world, these points would hold true. But unfortunately there are some tough realities: Today's clients: 1. don't have the disposable income that previous generations did. 2. don't place strong of emphasis on value over price as prior generations did. They're professional price-shoppers, bargain hunters, and deal makers. 3. will not speak to you unless you've sent at least a starting price. 4. are poor communicators. They take forever to respond and often lack etiquette. The sad truth is that every market is now oversaturated with photographers. Evolving camera technology & presets/filters have allowed pretty much anyone to be a photographer. The ART form is dwindling as photography is now client-driven. Clients send photographers inspirational photos from Pinterest and Instagram that they want to recreate, as opposed to trusting in their photographer's artistic vision.
I agree but with one caveat. I think there are many different ways to be a photographer. Even in Portraitures you could do lower end and bang out customers at a discount or really sell the art of your photography and pick up higher end clients. I'm trying to build a business around Social Media Clients while chasing my love for Landscape Photography. As long as I have a camera in my hand I'm happy. 🥂
@@payamjirsa I'd appreciate a follow up to this! I see the merit to everything you said, but I do see the trend of people wanting the information up front and being evasive to gatekeepers through the hiring process. I've been chatting with couples to find their favorite and least favorite parts about wedding planning, and I've heard several examples of brides being turned off by photographers that hide their prices behind meeting in person. Could be something fixed by "starting at..." or could be different with higher end weddings, but it does seem like three newer generations aren't so keen on some of these practices. Appreciate your perspective! I'm always looking to be challenged to do all the best practices.
@@payamjirsa Thanks for your response! I would also love to hear your follow-up. I swear I'm not firing shots :) I"m genuinely interested in the different approaches.
I wrote an ebook called The Closer for wedding photographers. It’s the sales psychology that damn near guarantee they book if the steps are used. Definitely don’t send the price list unless it’s falls into the categories you mentioned.
Hey super random question... but the sound quality is phenomenal! Could you let me in on the program you use and the settings? I own the same mic and I can see your gain is set to the lowest possible setting... you're also not super close to the mic... so how on earth do you get that sound quality?
This would never EVER work in my country. I honestly got so many because of how nice my pricelist looked. 2. I don't have a studio. I can't afford one yet. The economy is tight in my country. 3. Clients don't have time for meetings. If you try and explain your work to them it might seem as if you're trying your price because you're not confident in your own final product. 4. In my country clients will literally want your work and pay whatever you charge because they want YOU!
I think you can sell your photography via story telling on your blog on your website before they even contact you. I want them sold before they even contact me. I definitely want to put my starting prices on my website this year because price shoppers will waste your time by interrupting your workflow when you are editing. I'm going to do even more storytelling, emotion driven marketing regarding my senior portraits etc. This especially works with selling to Moms and Women.
Me: I can find your price sheet online... can you email me. Photo sales : let’s talk about what you need... remember it’s an investment Me : never mind.
Me (after having had to play this game one too many time): My budget is X-hundred dollars for a 2-hour shoot. Doable? Yes/no. Photo sales: (any answer other than yes) Me: Thanks for your reply.
I see the merit of your car dealership analogy, but Tesla would be a counter example since it breaks the traditional sales model without lowering its perceived value. Also if I walk into an Audi dealership I have a general idea of their price range and I wouldn't be expecting Toyota price :P
good. i think anither option is to have “starting at” prices. as a consumer I would pass up anyone with no mention of priced whatsoever and just wants to message
It sure is! We have an entire course dedicated to How to Book Photography Clients (Sales).It's the fourth and final workshop in the series. www.slrloungeworkshops.com/photography-business-training-system
Clients exist that will pay insanely high prices just because most other people can't afford the product/service they're buying. These are the people that spend $45,000.00 for a watch instead of $45.00 for a Timex. Both just tell you what time it is. But 99% of watch buyers can't afford nearly a half million dollars for a wrist watch. However, those watches are hand made out of the finest materials by master watch makers, and people know the value and quality of those watches.
At the same time, the car seller will only offer you a car that you can actually touch, feel, smell, hear etc. and the clients in photography can only buy expectations.
@@payamjirsa Yep, but being consistent in good work is not always the case. How do you respond if the client is not happy with the result after all for the money he/she paid?
@@payamjirsa Hey Pye, I just watched the brutally honest video and you were talking about services, hi-end customers, persuading rich clients, negotiating games... but you missed the main thing: THE PRODUCT! And to be honest(not brutally ofc.) the final product can cost huge and at the same time negligible expenses by let say two competitors. So basically if the final result is just the same, then you just rob your clients pretending to be something exceptional. So better define what exactly you are selling and do your clients actually know?
@@brodqga I don't price my time on what someone else is willing to take for theirs. Neither should you. I honestly have no idea what most of my competition charges. I monitor a few off and on, but I am never going to cost less than them so why would I care?
What if clients say things like „well I want to see how much I’d have to invest first“ Blabla and don’t want to talk on the phone first. 😳 so i say well it starts at Blabla and you’d get this and that. If you’re interested let’s talk on the phone about the details. Is that ok?
I NEVER give a price (or price range) without asking "How does that fit into your budget?" You will find most people don't even have a budget. 9 put of 10 price questions really have nothing to do with price. People don't know enough about the product or service to ask meaningful questions so they default to price. The second question is "Do you fully understand what is covered in this level of service," If they say NO, I just opened the door to ask them about their needs and wants. At this point I pretty much shut up. Once they start talking I basically say, "That's great. What else?" until they have told me what they need.
There is a major problem with this and Pye I'm kind of shocked that you did not mention what you buddies Lee & Patrick stated in pricing wedding photography as well as tons of others.... "Charge More! Charge What You're Worth!" Which has been s deadly promotion to photographers who jumped on the bandwagon. Now David Senteno gave some good points as well as a bad points. On the flip side, e JB also made some excellent points. I'm going to jump on this because of a number of falsehoods presented, or a minimum, some misconceptions. Tony & Chelsea are also notorious for pumping out clickbait crap that millions of follower buy into. The car analogy is a bad example as when you think of care, you instantly think of shady used car salesman who are looking to rip you off to get a higher sales commission. I can't speak for everywhere, but here in Ohio, car salesmen are required to have a license, which should and does apply to photographers. What I disagree with David about is people buying on the experience or the story. That is photographer hogwash! People buy on impulse, need, and as e JB pointed out, clients don't have time to go meet with potential photographer only to find out they are overpriced due to charge more, charge what you're worth crap, rather than sitting down, figuring out your actual fixed and variable costs, figuring your overhead and adding a profit... that is what you charge to cover your costs and make a profit. This idea of over charging (especially for weddings and commercial) 9s why people price shop. The are NOT idiots! Also, I cannot agree more with e JB about putting all of the data in the hands of the client and letting them decide. I come the construction field of excavating, heavy highway, site development and civil construction where you learn TIME IS MONEY! This is a concept that would be and should be promoted in the photography field I don't have time to meet with every person under the sun to suck them in and attempt to sell them something they don't want or need. That brings me to a very valuable point and way I hound and bash the hell out of Tony & Chelsea... First, if you are a TAXPAYER, you are required to report income to the IRS, even if it is hobby income. Second it is the IRS who decides if you are a Pro or Hobbyist, not you the photog! This is done by following the rules of thumb of what is a business and the fact of making a profit 3 out of 5 years. (www.irs.gov/newsroom/hobby-or-business-irs-offers-tips-to-decide) . The other thing is and as of 2017, Ohio has gotten stiffer on consumer protection laws. Ohio Rev. Code § 1345.02 (G) “Without limiting the scope of division (A) of this section, the failure of a supplier to obtain or maintain any registration, license, bond, or insurance required by state law or local ordinance for the supplier to engage in the supplier's trade or profession is an unfair or deceptive act or practice.” At minimum, you need to be registered with the Secretary of State, Oh Dept. of Taxation and/or the County Auditor. Most photogs in Ohio and in Facebook groups as well as modeling sites like Model Mayhem are in violation of this! Ohio Rev. Code § 1345.02 (A) “No supplier shall commit an unfair or deceptive act or practice in connection with a consumer transaction. Such an unfair or deceptive act or practice by a supplier violates this section whether it occurs before, during, or after the transaction.” So you better be putting the facts and data out there rather than trying to sucker people in! Ohio Rev. Code § 1345.02 (B)(4) “That the subject of a consumer transaction is available to the consumer for a reason that does not exist;” And for those wishing to seek that no refundable deposit upfront, well you better read Ohio Admin. Code § 109:4-3-03 (B) “It shall be a deceptive and unfair act or practice for a supplier to make an offer of sale of any goods or services when such offer is not a bona fide effort to sell such goods or services. An offer is not bona fide if: (1) “A supplier uses a statement or illustration or makes a representation in any advertisement which would create in the mind of a reasonable consumer, a false impression as to the grade, quality, quantity, make, model, year, price, value, size, color, utility, origin or any other material aspect of the offered goods or services in such a manner that, upon subsequent disclosure or discovery of the facts, the consumer may be induced to purchase goods or services other than those offered;” including Ohio Admin. Code § 109:4-3-07 (A) through (D) regarding deposits and/or refunds and Ohio Admin. Code. § 109:4-3-09 (b) “Making a full refund;”. Ohio Admin. Code § 109:4-3-10 (A) “Make any representations, claims, or assertions of fact, whether orally or in writing, which would cause a reasonable consumer to believe such statements are true…” So, you better be damn careful what you say or put in an email price list, ot even if you meet with them in person! Now to my favorite ones.... Pye, this is where you and others are misleading and you have to be super careful.... Ohio Rev. Code § 1345.03 (B)((2) “Whether the supplier knew at the time the consumer transaction was entered into that the price was substantially in excess of the price at which similar property or services were readily obtainable in similar consumer transactions by like consumers;” This is why you send them a price list and let them price shop. Put the liability on the client, not you! These next two are my favorites and for those photogs who play the whole take tons of images, never let the client see any unedited image, never let them have a say in the editings, edit your way, rip them off with giving them lesser images and lessor quality jpegs and then plastering you advertising mark (watermark) all over the images with usage and licensing fees.... pay close attention! Ohio Rev. Code § 1345.03 (B)(3) “Whether the supplier knew at the time the consumer transaction was entered into of the inability of the consumer to receive a substantial benefit from the subject of the consumer transaction;” So, are you providing a substantial benefit to you clients doing the above? No! You are ripping them off and you are not an artist. You're a photographer, who is hopefully registered and licensed rather than engaging in tax evasion and the underground economy calling yourself a Pro and an Artist, when in fact you're merely a pro-hobbyist! And for you wedding photogs.... Ohio Rev. Code § 1345.03 (B)(5) “Whether the supplier required the consumer to enter into a consumer transaction on terms the supplier knew were substantially one-sided in favor of the supplier;” Now, look at my above example.... is that substantial one-sided in favor you you the photographer? You bet! Notice we are not even to copyright law which most use in an unfair and deceptive manner. So, did you pick the wedding date? Pick the location? Pick the theme , the colors, the time of day? Did you pick the caterer or the florist? How about the dress or the tux? Nope! If you understand copyright law then you know that if you provide a material or physical contribution then you are a joint copyright holder. Oh, wait... whoa! Read the laws again... did you disclose this to your client upfront? Hell no as you don't want to hand over RAW files of not have the ability to exploit the client at their expense! Doesn't the law say unfair or deceptive practices BEFORE, DURING or AFTER? And for those claiming the "artist" crap... Ohio Rev. Code § 1345.03 (B (6) “Whether the supplier knowingly made a misleading statement of opinion on which the consumer was likely to rely to the consumer's detriment;” That is a matter of opinion and why I don't use it in my business! And don't give me the whole you say a lot and say nothing crap or I need to check out Rachel Brenke's The LawTog site... Even she spells it out that just because you push the shutter does not make you the "creator" and the "work" has to be "original" You have people like Chase Jarvis, Sue Bryce and many others who are pumping out crap and NEVER talk of this stuff which Remember Dallas, Tx, wedding photog Andrea Polito a few years ago who sued her clients for defamation? That's because most states have what is called the Uniform Code, which language may differ, but the intent is the same. Polito violated Texas consumer protection laws and when her clients complained for nickel and diming them, she sued them. So how many are you are members of the PPA and don't have a business license? That is deceptive as well. And if you're in Ohio, you better read the following... www.ficlaw.com/business-litigation/archives/the-ohio-consumer-sales-practices-act-what-is-it-does-it-apply-to-me-and-if-it-does-what-do-i-stand-to-lose/ I have sued a few dozen follow photogs for the above OCSPA violations as well as informed countless wedding clients in Ohio of this and they too have used the laws to protect them to get fair deals, more images, better quality images... RAW files and even joint copyright ownership. So, do whatever, but remember, if you're a photog business, you're required to know and follow the laws of your state. Ignorance of the law is not a defense!
@@BraxChat That is laughable! It appears you are the one with issues! First, I am a male! Not a lady! LOL Second , if you are here, then you are seeking photography advice from someone who most likely knows very little about law. Third, I'm in law school and when finished and license in hand, I'm coming for photogs like you!
Interested in learning more about pricing your photo packages? Join Pye at WPPI 2020: bit.ly/wppi2020
If I may. I've spent the last ten years in sales and only two in photography. I can tell you that people buy the experience and the story they see themselves in.
1: Definitely meet with your clients
2: Explain the process including editing.
3: Think of them as family and offer what you think is cool.
4: Under Promise and Over Deliver.
5: After the shoot ask them what was their favorite part.
6: Always use their name. Always.
Just my two cents. 🥂
Great tips!
As a customer, I do not agree.
1 : we are in a life that do not leaves us a lot of time. I do not have time to spend meeting with a provider to discover that I can not afford it. I meet the provider if I think it is going to be the right one.
You do not visit houses that you cannot afford do you ?
2 : i do not like when I do not have all data in hand to have a first point of view quietly at home. I fear the provider is going to use some sales tricks on me that are going to biais my decision if I do not have all the data in advance and I want my primary decision to be out of any kind of pressure.
3 : I feel that not giving price list is a kind of posh attitude saying « I’m so exclusive. Not everybody deserve me »
So if no price list, I run away 😄
e JB I understand your position, but if you notice I didn't mention not to offer an idea of your pricing. My intention is to suggest to make a connection with your clients and having a conversation about what they need. Each client is different, but if you have a good relationship with them you get a feel for what they are comfortable with. At the end of the day if you hire any professional your going to have to talk to them about price and they will always offer additional services. 🥂
You can walk into a Lexus, Merc or Bentley dealership (or their website) and get a starting price and list of options for anything on the lot without talking to anyone. As others have stated, this is an outdated approach. Clients don’t want to invest a bunch of time in you just to find out they can’t afford you. There’s plenty of other creatives in the market that WON’T give them the run around for simple information. Your value should’ve been pretty well conveyed on whatever platform got the potential client to contact you...otherwise they wouldn’t have reached out. Our booking rate increased drastically when we started giving clients the info they want up front. Either we fit their budget and continue the conversation towards a booking, we don’t fit their budget and they adjust accordingly, or we don’t fit their budget and they continue their search elsewhere. Regardless, they have the information they need to make that decision.
Stating "starting points" is not a no-no, this video is specifically about sending out detailed price lists that document complete packages when you don't know what package/product they need. I'll address this in a follow up. This isn't about holding back information or giving them the runaround. It's the opposite.
@@payamjirsa I understand, but the brands you mentioned have car configurators right on their site that give you an instant price for anything they sell. If your example brands make it that simple and consumers have grown to expect things to be that simple, why not keep it that simple?
@@RLfilmz i completely agree with your point ..
I agree with everything in this video! When I first started out, I was so quick to give a price because I just wanted to get the customers business so I would have more work to showcase faster. As my portfolio expanded, I started discussing different options with my clients before giving a price which is absolutely the way to do it. I like the car analogy, never thought about it that way. Great stuff ‼️
that totally depends on the place you live.. in my country.... the one, which doesnt have at least a pricepoint, loses.. nobody calls you, when they dont even can check in front.. same for me.. i do my research first, dont i see a price, i dont call.. this is what the website is for.. you can use your website to show your work, show your customer feedbacks and create not only interest, also build up trust and then with no issue set a pricepoint, even when its only an hour fee.. it has to be there
You are seeing this from only one perspective, your own. In your country, there are plenty of people that spend varying amounts on various products. They all have different shopping practices from one another. Some hop on the phone, others don't. Some shop on the web, others want in-person experiences. But, I address each of these within our business series, in the meanwhile, I'll create another video for you guys to answer some of these other questions.
SAME IN MY COUNTRY.
This tactic would never ever work
@@keloduma you are saying absolutely positively no one does this? Do you think there might be 5, or 2, or maybe just 1?
I would seek out those who have managed to crack the pricing code. I will give you a little secret. People who are not looking for the cheapest solution spend more money with you, refer more new clients, and take up less time.
I was about to email my 1st price list . Just checked out , UA-cam for the last time . Fortunately came to this video . Thanks you so much sir . This helped really a lot .
I'm a photographer that is also planning to book a wedding photographer for my own wedding. Once I view their work and verify that they can at least pull off and handle a certain shot, I want price information. If they were to come back with questions on what I'm looking for, I have no problem discussing that, but I also want pricing information ASAP to not waste my or their time.
100% agree and more times than not you leave money on the table by supplying a price list that do not take into account what the job entails. Upon hearing your clients needs you are giving them a customized experience. Who doesn't want something to be customized to them?
Not every photographer does weddings and so you don't get a chance always to meet the client first, get em hooked, and only then present the price.
@@eladbari why not?
Do you want to set yourself far out front of everyone else or just hang with the pack?
You don't have to physically meet them, however that is the most beneficial move you can make to grow your business; dare I say more important than gear. Make a commitment to have a pre-shoot meeting with 2 out of 10 clients this year and I can practically guarantee your print sales will double.
@@jasoncollins4088 how does finding new clients for shoots [fashion, in my case], for, say, an editorial, will increase my prints sale?
Two different products. Even if this was about wedding photography.
1. I wrote that not every photographer could list pre-made prices.
Weddings look more or less the same. So you could give an estimate.
An editorial for a magazine vs. an editorial for a big clothing brand- would be complete opposites [price-wise]. You can't put prices of that on your website.
@@eladbari you don't have creative planning meetings for fashion and editorial shoots?
How do you go from an email asking about your prices to a meeting when you dont own a studio? Thats my struggle and the reason I thought competitive prices and responsive time was better than trying to call up a meeting.
Maybe give them a phone call
Just stumbled across your page yesterday. Finally someone that explains the photography business well. Thank you.
Pye very interesting video and approach to client communication. what to do when clients don't have time and don't want to meet and talk. They just want the prices. In my country don't many people want to meet with photographers for talk about the service and product they want. they are only interested in the price. thanks
I whole hearty agree with you on this. Many good photographers are not a good business people, vise versa not all the good business photographers are great photographers. Rather than fighting with one low price based customer pool select the right one you want to target, sell, give your service
Without knowing the individual needs, style, end results offering a price information is not tailored solution
Amazing advice. Wish I'd heard this a year ago :^( Learned my lesson the hard way but glad to know the reasoning and psychology behind it.
Thanks for watching, Gene! Glad you found this video helpful!
Great info Could not agree with you more. But the way you give examples with the car dealership is perfect!!
Thanks for watching Debra! Glad you found this video relatable and useful!
Good day from Tampa Florida, I hope you are well! Really good tips... most informative and relative content that I've heard in weeks :-) Stay encouraged!!!
Car salesman have a difficult job selling cars to people with very little money (think ford etc) the secret is selling cars to people for whom money/cost isn't the issue, people will pay crazy money to get what they want. Convince them you can provide what they want, job done!
Pye... My guy. Love your courses. I've purchased a few of them when I first started learning photography. I thank you!
In an ideal world, these points would hold true. But unfortunately there are some tough realities:
Today's clients:
1. don't have the disposable income that previous generations did.
2. don't place strong of emphasis on value over price as prior generations did. They're professional price-shoppers, bargain hunters, and deal makers.
3. will not speak to you unless you've sent at least a starting price.
4. are poor communicators. They take forever to respond and often lack etiquette.
The sad truth is that every market is now oversaturated with photographers. Evolving camera technology & presets/filters have allowed pretty much anyone to be a photographer. The ART form is dwindling as photography is now client-driven. Clients send photographers inspirational photos from Pinterest and Instagram that they want to recreate, as opposed to trusting in their photographer's artistic vision.
I agree but with one caveat. I think there are many different ways to be a photographer. Even in Portraitures you could do lower end and bang out customers at a discount or really sell the art of your photography and pick up higher end clients. I'm trying to build a business around Social Media Clients while chasing my love for Landscape Photography. As long as I have a camera in my hand I'm happy. 🥂
I'll do a follow-up video and address your realities. There's a lot here to unpack.
@@payamjirsa I'd appreciate a follow up to this! I see the merit to everything you said, but I do see the trend of people wanting the information up front and being evasive to gatekeepers through the hiring process. I've been chatting with couples to find their favorite and least favorite parts about wedding planning, and I've heard several examples of brides being turned off by photographers that hide their prices behind meeting in person. Could be something fixed by "starting at..." or could be different with higher end weddings, but it does seem like three newer generations aren't so keen on some of these practices.
Appreciate your perspective! I'm always looking to be challenged to do all the best practices.
@@payamjirsa Thanks for your response! I would also love to hear your follow-up. I swear I'm not firing shots :) I"m genuinely interested in the different approaches.
Hit the nail right on the head!
You are an incredible educator. I learn do much each time I see your videos. Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge.
I wrote an ebook called The Closer for wedding photographers. It’s the sales psychology that damn near guarantee they book if the steps are used. Definitely don’t send the price list unless it’s falls into the categories you mentioned.
Hey super random question... but the sound quality is phenomenal! Could you let me in on the program you use and the settings? I own the same mic and I can see your gain is set to the lowest possible setting... you're also not super close to the mic... so how on earth do you get that sound quality?
Great video. Where do you recommend to get high quality framed canvas?
This would never EVER work in my country. I honestly got so many because of how nice my pricelist looked.
2. I don't have a studio. I can't afford one yet. The economy is tight in my country.
3. Clients don't have time for meetings. If you try and explain your work to them it might seem as if you're trying your price because you're not confident in your own final product.
4. In my country clients will literally want your work and pay whatever you charge because they want YOU!
I think you can sell your photography via story telling on your blog on your website before they even contact you. I want them sold before they even contact me. I definitely want to put my starting prices on my website this year because price shoppers will waste your time by interrupting your workflow when you are editing. I'm going to do even more storytelling, emotion driven marketing regarding my senior portraits etc. This especially works with selling to Moms and Women.
i've been doing this wrong all my life... @pye.. you got me
Thanks for this explanation.. you nailed it.
Thanks for watching, glad you enjoyed it!
First to comment. Very great info here Pye. You truly inspire my craft. Love from West Africa Ghana. Keep up the good job
So glad to see you found this resourceful, Daakpe! Thanks for watching!
really some thoughtful crucial tips ....
Thanks for watching, glad you found this video resourceful!
Me: I can find your price sheet online... can you email me.
Photo sales : let’s talk about what you need... remember it’s an investment
Me : never mind.
Me (after having had to play this game one too many time): My budget is X-hundred dollars for a 2-hour shoot. Doable? Yes/no.
Photo sales: (any answer other than yes)
Me: Thanks for your reply.
Great points! Thanks for all the knowledge and experience tips.
Thanks
Thank you.
Thanks for the advice am really glad I listened to this video.
Just made this mistake 2 hours ago. Thanks for making this video.
I see the merit of your car dealership analogy, but Tesla would be a counter example since it breaks the traditional sales model without lowering its perceived value. Also if I walk into an Audi dealership I have a general idea of their price range and I wouldn't be expecting Toyota price :P
Question: Is that a profoto a1 with a maggrip?
Yes it is! You can see how we use it here: www.slrloungeworkshops.com/lighting-4-free-workshop
Really great info! Never looked at it that way before
Thanks for watching!
great content, helped me realize how to proceed. thank you!
man this was important..thanks
Thanks for watching, Aldrin!
good. i think anither option is to have “starting at” prices. as a consumer I would pass up anyone with no mention of priced whatsoever and just wants to message
What should you do if a company straight up asks for your rate card?
Sick info
Tnx it helps a lot
wow so interesting thanks man! I'll go check your other videos :))
Top advice!
Great info
I'm nervous about pricing and packages
Is this in the business side of photography in the premium? or is this WPPI only?
It sure is! We have an entire course dedicated to How to Book Photography Clients (Sales).It's the fourth and final workshop in the series. www.slrloungeworkshops.com/photography-business-training-system
Great video
Thank you, Charlie!
Though i wont be there, its about time you got added to event lol haha
Clients exist that will pay insanely high prices just because most other people can't afford the product/service they're buying. These are the people that spend $45,000.00 for a watch instead of $45.00 for a Timex. Both just tell you what time it is. But 99% of watch buyers can't afford nearly a half million dollars for a wrist watch. However, those watches are hand made out of the finest materials by master watch makers, and people know the value and quality of those watches.
So are you saying that we should not have set prices?
Not if you want to maximize your income.
At the same time, the car seller will only offer you a car that you can actually touch, feel, smell, hear etc. and the clients in photography can only buy expectations.
True. Better make sure the product/experience is consistent and deliverable.
@@payamjirsa Yep, but being consistent in good work is not always the case. How do you respond if the client is not happy with the result after all for the money he/she paid?
@@payamjirsa Hey Pye, I just watched the brutally honest video and you were talking about services, hi-end customers, persuading rich clients, negotiating games... but you missed the main thing: THE PRODUCT! And to be honest(not brutally ofc.) the final product can cost huge and at the same time negligible expenses by let say two competitors. So basically if the final result is just the same, then you just rob your clients pretending to be something exceptional. So better define what exactly you are selling and do your clients actually know?
@@brodqga I don't price my time on what someone else is willing to take for theirs. Neither should you.
I honestly have no idea what most of my competition charges. I monitor a few off and on, but I am never going to cost less than them so why would I care?
What if clients say things like „well I want to see how much I’d have to invest first“ Blabla and don’t want to talk on the phone first. 😳 so i say well it starts at Blabla and you’d get this and that. If you’re interested let’s talk on the phone about the details. Is that ok?
I NEVER give a price (or price range) without asking "How does that fit into your budget?" You will find most people don't even have a budget. 9 put of 10 price questions really have nothing to do with price. People don't know enough about the product or service to ask meaningful questions so they default to price.
The second question is "Do you fully understand what is covered in this level of service,"
If they say NO, I just opened the door to ask them about their needs and wants. At this point I pretty much shut up. Once they start talking I basically say, "That's great. What else?" until they have told me what they need.
There is a major problem with this and Pye I'm kind of shocked that you did not mention what you buddies Lee & Patrick stated in pricing wedding photography as well as tons of others.... "Charge More! Charge What You're Worth!" Which has been s deadly promotion to photographers who jumped on the bandwagon.
Now David Senteno gave some good points as well as a bad points. On the flip side, e JB also made some excellent points. I'm going to jump on this because of a number of falsehoods presented, or a minimum, some misconceptions. Tony & Chelsea are also notorious for pumping out clickbait crap that millions of follower buy into.
The car analogy is a bad example as when you think of care, you instantly think of shady used car salesman who are looking to rip you off to get a higher sales commission. I can't speak for everywhere, but here in Ohio, car salesmen are required to have a license, which should and does apply to photographers. What I disagree with David about is people buying on the experience or the story. That is photographer hogwash! People buy on impulse, need, and as e JB pointed out, clients don't have time to go meet with potential photographer only to find out they are overpriced due to charge more, charge what you're worth crap, rather than sitting down, figuring out your actual fixed and variable costs, figuring your overhead and adding a profit... that is what you charge to cover your costs and make a profit. This idea of over charging (especially for weddings and commercial) 9s why people price shop. The are NOT idiots! Also, I cannot agree more with e JB about putting all of the data in the hands of the client and letting them decide. I come the construction field of excavating, heavy highway, site development and civil construction where you learn TIME IS MONEY! This is a concept that would be and should be promoted in the photography field I don't have time to meet with every person under the sun to suck them in and attempt to sell them something they don't want or need.
That brings me to a very valuable point and way I hound and bash the hell out of Tony & Chelsea... First, if you are a TAXPAYER, you are required to report income to the IRS, even if it is hobby income. Second it is the IRS who decides if you are a Pro or Hobbyist, not you the photog! This is done by following the rules of thumb of what is a business and the fact of making a profit 3 out of 5 years. (www.irs.gov/newsroom/hobby-or-business-irs-offers-tips-to-decide) . The other thing is and as of 2017, Ohio has gotten stiffer on consumer protection laws.
Ohio Rev. Code § 1345.02 (G) “Without limiting the scope of division (A) of this section, the failure of a supplier to obtain or maintain any registration, license, bond, or insurance required by state law or local ordinance for the supplier to engage in the supplier's trade or profession is an unfair or deceptive act or practice.” At minimum, you need to be registered with the Secretary of State, Oh Dept. of Taxation and/or the County Auditor. Most photogs in Ohio and in Facebook groups as well as modeling sites like Model Mayhem are in violation of this!
Ohio Rev. Code § 1345.02 (A) “No supplier shall commit an unfair or deceptive act or practice in connection with a consumer transaction. Such an unfair or deceptive act or practice by a supplier violates this section whether it occurs before, during, or after the transaction.” So you better be putting the facts and data out there rather than trying to sucker people in!
Ohio Rev. Code § 1345.02 (B)(4) “That the subject of a consumer transaction is available to the consumer for a reason that does not exist;”
And for those wishing to seek that no refundable deposit upfront, well you better read Ohio Admin. Code § 109:4-3-03 (B) “It shall be a deceptive and unfair act or practice for a supplier to make an offer of sale of any goods or services when such offer is not a bona fide effort to sell such goods or services. An offer is not bona fide if:
(1) “A supplier uses a statement or illustration or makes a representation in any advertisement which would create in the mind of a reasonable consumer, a false impression as to the grade, quality, quantity, make, model, year, price, value, size, color, utility, origin or any other material aspect of the offered goods or services in such a manner that, upon subsequent disclosure or discovery of the facts, the consumer may be induced to purchase goods or services other than those offered;” including Ohio Admin. Code § 109:4-3-07 (A) through (D) regarding deposits and/or refunds and Ohio Admin. Code. § 109:4-3-09 (b) “Making a full refund;”.
Ohio Admin. Code § 109:4-3-10 (A) “Make any representations, claims, or assertions of fact, whether orally or in writing, which would cause a reasonable consumer to believe such statements are true…” So, you better be damn careful what you say or put in an email price list, ot even if you meet with them in person!
Now to my favorite ones.... Pye, this is where you and others are misleading and you have to be super careful.... Ohio Rev. Code § 1345.03 (B)((2) “Whether the supplier knew at the time the consumer transaction was entered into that the price was substantially in excess of the price at which similar property or services were readily obtainable in similar consumer transactions by like consumers;” This is why you send them a price list and let them price shop. Put the liability on the client, not you!
These next two are my favorites and for those photogs who play the whole take tons of images, never let the client see any unedited image, never let them have a say in the editings, edit your way, rip them off with giving them lesser images and lessor quality jpegs and then plastering you advertising mark (watermark) all over the images with usage and licensing fees.... pay close attention! Ohio Rev. Code § 1345.03 (B)(3) “Whether the supplier knew at the time the consumer transaction was entered into of the inability of the consumer to receive a substantial benefit from the subject of the consumer transaction;” So, are you providing a substantial benefit to you clients doing the above? No! You are ripping them off and you are not an artist. You're a photographer, who is hopefully registered and licensed rather than engaging in tax evasion and the underground economy calling yourself a Pro and an Artist, when in fact you're merely a pro-hobbyist!
And for you wedding photogs.... Ohio Rev. Code § 1345.03 (B)(5) “Whether the supplier required the consumer to enter into a consumer transaction on terms the supplier knew were substantially one-sided in favor of the supplier;” Now, look at my above example.... is that substantial one-sided in favor you you the photographer? You bet! Notice we are not even to copyright law which most use in an unfair and deceptive manner. So, did you pick the wedding date? Pick the location? Pick the theme , the colors, the time of day? Did you pick the caterer or the florist? How about the dress or the tux? Nope! If you understand copyright law then you know that if you provide a material or physical contribution then you are a joint copyright holder. Oh, wait... whoa! Read the laws again... did you disclose this to your client upfront? Hell no as you don't want to hand over RAW files of not have the ability to exploit the client at their expense! Doesn't the law say unfair or deceptive practices BEFORE, DURING or AFTER?
And for those claiming the "artist" crap... Ohio Rev. Code § 1345.03 (B (6) “Whether the supplier knowingly made a misleading statement of opinion on which the consumer was likely to rely to the consumer's detriment;” That is a matter of opinion and why I don't use it in my business! And don't give me the whole you say a lot and say nothing crap or I need to check out Rachel Brenke's The LawTog site... Even she spells it out that just because you push the shutter does not make you the "creator" and the "work" has to be "original"
You have people like Chase Jarvis, Sue Bryce and many others who are pumping out crap and NEVER talk of this stuff which Remember Dallas, Tx, wedding photog Andrea Polito a few years ago who sued her clients for defamation? That's because most states have what is called the Uniform Code, which language may differ, but the intent is the same. Polito violated Texas consumer protection laws and when her clients complained for nickel and diming them, she sued them. So how many are you are members of the PPA and don't have a business license? That is deceptive as well. And if you're in Ohio, you better read the following... www.ficlaw.com/business-litigation/archives/the-ohio-consumer-sales-practices-act-what-is-it-does-it-apply-to-me-and-if-it-does-what-do-i-stand-to-lose/
I have sued a few dozen follow photogs for the above OCSPA violations as well as informed countless wedding clients in Ohio of this and they too have used the laws to protect them to get fair deals, more images, better quality images... RAW files and even joint copyright ownership. So, do whatever, but remember, if you're a photog business, you're required to know and follow the laws of your state. Ignorance of the law is not a defense!
Lady you got issues
@@BraxChat That is laughable! It appears you are the one with issues! First, I am a male! Not a lady! LOL Second , if you are here, then you are seeking photography advice from someone who most likely knows very little about law. Third, I'm in law school and when finished and license in hand, I'm coming for photogs like you!