The Basement - FMR RNC and RNLA Demo (on Drum Buss)
Вставка
- Опубліковано 1 гру 2011
- The Basement is back! Just showing some different sounds you can get from the FMR RNC and RNLA compressors, using the drum buss as a nice source so you can really hear the effects throughout the frequency spectrum.
Home project studio: / jessegimbelsbasement
www.jessegimbel.com/studio (looking for bands to work with)
My personal music: jessegimbel.bandcamp.com
one of the best reviews I've ever seen on any gear period. keep it up dude.
@MinamotoAkori Wow thanks so much! You nailed it, the RNLA is definitely more vintage. Not in a distortion way but in a smooth/thick way. If I only had one for the rest of my life it would no question be the RNLA. The RNC is a great compressor, but is basically a leveling tool you don't hear (in most cases, obviously not crushing the drum buss). The RNC does basically what I expect a good transparent compresser plugin to do. But the RNLA has got mojo that is hard to replace.
Great informative video. I like the RNC over the RNLA for drum buss. Thanks for sharing!
+Greg Patterson Thanks for watching! I just used the RNC on a room mic in a session the other day, sounded great!
Thanks so much! A handful of new videos will be up over the next few weeks.
Thanks! I hope you enjoy it, both of these are great compressors that still hold their own even when you have other much more expensive compressors.
Nice vid, really useful! Finally I can hear clearly the differencies and the character of the two compressors. I think I'll buy the RNC...
Thought exactly the same. :) You probably bought it a while ago then. Are you satisfied?
Hey there, thanks for the compliment! Right now the hub of the studio is my Firestudio Tube, which is a firewire interface. I use mostly external preamps (BAE 1073MPF, two custom API 312 clones, a few others), along with the Firestudio's preamps when needed. It's a great interface, I couldn't find anything that offers the same features or close to it for the price. I'd like higher end converters but you have to spend thousands more to get an upgrade that's worthwhile, the FST isn't in the way.
How I make the most of the RNC in a live situation. I have a fixed compressor in the amp rack for the overall mix, and the RNC at the board. The RNC controls my low frequencies. Having a separate compressor control your low frequencies is the same principle used in frequency compressors (used in mastering). If you use two TRS (tip-ring-sleeve) cables and insert them into both your bass & kick at the board, and run the other ends into the RNC in/out inserts (not a mistake, the RNC lets you do this). They are linked so what you do to one (kick) is done to the other (bass). I create a 'side chain' effect by doing it this way, but there are a few things you need to grasp in order to make it work really nice.. :-). The trick is to make sure your kick drum is 6dB hotter than your bass guitar. You do this by cueing up both the kick, and bass (PFL cue button). You cue up your kick in the PFL meter & make sure its at +6VU. Cue up your bass guitar, make sure its at 0VU. Next, take a look at the RNC gain reduction meter, and make sure the kick is being reduced more than the bass (set attack to 0 to start). Verify that the RNC gain reduction sees the kick with a 6Db greater reduction than the bass. The next thing you need to do is set your attack to 50ms. This will turn the compressor on 50ms after your drummer hits his kick. Once you do this, the gain reduction meter will NOT be an indicator of whether or not the kick is poking through (don't forget this, it can mess with your head if you don't understand it). At this point you need to use your ears. Kick pokes through tightly, and the bass is compressed for apx. 1/2 second (set release to song tempo). If you want your bass a little louder, slowly reduce the threshold from, say, -10 to -8 while watching the gain reduction until the kick & bass is mixed perfectly relative to each other. The release must be a full quarter note. Once you get the hang of it, you can adjust it perfectly to the song tempo. It works really well, and my low end is friggin' nice & stable. When you begin to turn the attack down below 50ms, pay attention to how your low frequencies fade away. It takes 50 ms for 60Hz to be 'fully realized' .. and if you shorten that, you must drive the input hotter in order to get it to poke through. If you set your attack too lose (60 ms) it can sound flabby. If you have a higher pitched kick, not boosted at 60Hz, but say more of a low mid country kick? set your attack tighter, to something like 30ms. If your tempo is really fast, and you want a more staccato kick, remember that (assuming your kick is boosted at near 60Hz) when you reduce your attack you need to push more into the compressor in order for those low frequencies to be the same level as before. This method creates greater definition, and prevents it from sounding like it is compressed (jazz guys hate that... lol).
Thank you! In this video I was using a pair of MXL 603s, which are great little mics. I have a pair of vintage Neumann KM84s that I generally use for overheads now but the 603s still get used around here quite a bit. I'd highly recommend the 603s (or 604s now, having a pad and a rolloff plus another capsule would be awesome) or check out the Oktava MK012. Both are really fantastic small diaphragm condensers that work great for overheads and can be nice on acoustic string instruments too.
this is the best demo video about the RNC and RNLA. You've perfectly shown how both behave and sound. thank you for sharing your experience with the world, it really helped me a lot with the buying decission. I think I'am going to buy the RNLA because it has something kinda neve'ish on it. I love the coloration even the RNC might bring some cleaner sound with crispy hights and tight low end on drums.
+Daniel White So glad I could help! The RNLA has sometimes been called the "poor man's LA2A", it definitely does have a little thicker of a sound, which is maybe what you considered Neve-ish. Enjoy it!
Awesome, I have never used my RNC and now that I have an idea of what it can do, I'm super excited to try it.
And now I really want the RNLA too, thanks a lot...
+Kefka420 Happy to help!
Been thinking about purchasing a RNC for awhle now. This vid convinced me to go with that! Thank you. And great drum tones mate.
Not a problem, I'm happy to help, ask away! The Moto 828 is similar, different i/o. The FST has 10 preamps plus 6 line ins for external pre's/compressors, etc. The Moto has 2 preamps and 8 line ins. The extra preamps are very nice to have when I'm recording full bands, the built-in preamps are surprisingly nice, very neutral without being sterile. I'm running Cubase, you set up external effects by going line out from the interface to external equipment, back into a line in, pretty normal setup.
I like the RNLA for the drum sound, you got some amazing drum sound going with it.
So Cool! It's funny because although the sounds for the settings are so different, I almost like them all. Ha...
Personally, I've always found compressors to be one of the hardest effects to rap my head around. Even so, I've used them with great success.
Super video as usual!
The audio and video qualities are awesome!!
@BadChizzle They all have their applications! It's interesting how you can use the same drums and get them to fit with a lot of different styles of music just with different compression.You can make the drums sound really roomy and huge, without even having room mics in there yet. Compression is definitely kind of mysterious to begin with, but once you get a good understanding of what each control is doing you can do things with more intention, not just so blind.
@SolosWithStyle Thanks so much! Yeah I prefer the RNLA myself for anything where you want the compression to be noticeable. The RNC is definitely less exciting, sound-wise, but is perfect when you have audio that sounds exactly how you want it but needs leveling out - it's more of a utilitarian tool than something fun, but can really save the day. I'm a sucker for the RNLA though on vocals, bass, kick drum, and after this video, drum buss!
Thanks for the reply. I'm thinking of opting for the Oktava MK012. They seem great. I picked up an RNLA in the meantime which I'm having fun with, particularly for low end stuff like kick drum and bass. From your vid (and from trying out the RNLA), I'd sway towards the RNC on drum buss as it seems more balanced and also crunched up nicely when you mangled it! Thanks again.
thank you, great walk through. The setting you did with the RNC Ratio at 25 and fastest attack and release would be awesome for parallel compression!
+Joeman7890 It would! Thanks for watching!
i love these helpful tips videos!
Great video!! Very helpful
thanks for the demo
@mouthpieceofthehost I could have played it any number of ways. Though that's a bit irrelevant here, considering compression is generally used on a drum buss more as an effect, not purely for volume leveling, like is more commonly used on vocals or bass guitar. Regardless, while I'm not the best drummer, I'm not sure I agree that my playing here is that uneven. It's a fine, steady beat with enough space to be able to properly hear the effects of compression, as intended.
True, but because of this I took his comment to mean that he liked how it sounded here as well as other experience he's had. These compressors do tend to have just the right/little amount of coloration that makes them work on a wide variety of applications.
I'm talking about the specific coloration as in the compression characteristics, not the signal path alone. Anyway, yes I do find benefits to using a good compressor plugin. There is an ease with using hardware, I find it easier to get the compression sitting where I want without hearing artifacts I'm not looking for as much.
Yeah I generally use the RNLA for sources where crisp transparent clarity isn't what I'm going for. I use it constantly on bass and male vocals. If I compress any drums going in with it it's the kick. I don't use the RNC as much, but I'm not after that transparency as often. It does get things pretty trashy in a nice way when you crush something with it, whereas the RNLA crushes things too but gives an overall character/thickness.
Good job
Thanks!
Yep, I do agree with you, that's why I reacted to something that sounded like "OMFG IT'S SO GOOD ON THIS DRUM, IT COULD WORK ON ANYTHING !!"
Hi , would this be a good compressor for live stereo master ? would come from the desk into the compressor and then and then to speakers ,,thanks
I don't! What you see is just an XLR panel I made that goes into my various preamps so I can plug mics into the front and not have to reach around the back of the rack each time I'm setting things up.
@gotbass33727 I like the RNLA better than the RNC for bass because it handles low end better. Some people have complained about the RNC distorting when using it on sources with a lot of low end with fast attack times (though I haven't experienced it myself). I do know I love the RNLA for bass though.
reminded me how much i need some of the fmr audio stuff. didn't one of them used to have a "thick" mode button?!
Liked and subscribed, awesome and very to-the-point-video!
Definitely like the clean sound of the RNC more! RNLA sounds to "brown" or "colored" for me!
Thank you again, mate!
+Michael Kupfer Glad you enjoyed it, thanks for watching!
RNLA brings an awesome thuddy, thick sound I usually hear with Neve-style comps.
+snippletrap Interesting! I can't say I've really noticed strong similarities between the RNLA and something like a 2254 or 33609, but it's definitely a bit thicker and less crisp than the RNC.
Thumbs up here. It's not that compression makes things more detailed on their own, it's that compression helps bring out small details in a mix. Robin, it can take quite a while to get used to compression and exactly how to use it and what to use it for, but while it can at first seem like there are just a million variables, there are definite ways to use it. Set your threshold so only the volume you want is being affected, set your ratio for how many db to take down, etc. Be methodical!
Just got one, and started using it last week on a live mix. It would be interesting to switch back, and forth between my DBX & other compressors... see exactly what the difference is. Setting each one up on a sub mix (1-4) would be a way to allow you the luxury of routing to each compressor individually. Does the vocal sound better though the DBX, or the RNC? Does the acoustic sound better through the RNC, or the DBX? I'll see how it goes. I really what to know, for sure, that this is doing better than the other compressors.
Unfortunately I don't have one, but I will look in the area and see if anyone has one I can borrow for a review. It's it mono though, so stereo drum buss wouldn't work. From what I hear the PBC-6A is a great character compressor, so your decision should be based on what you're looking for. The RNC is not an exciting compressor, it's more of a utilitarian tool for when you need to control volume, while the RNLA (and PBC) have more of a distinct sound they add.
hey man, first saw your drum overhead comparison video and then found all your others, great stuff man keep it up! u've got some cool songs of your own also! I'm recording my band at the moment in Dublin, with a very modest setup, using a Motu 8pre, Reaper, and a mac. still learning more every day but have a decent understanding of recording. could I ask you what your set up is in your studio?! do you use an firewire interface or desk etc? I'm trying to figure out how to eventually upgrade!
@jessegimbel ahhh yes
very nice review man..have you tried pcb, vla or comp 54 ? they are almost same price level(little higher..) i try to find the best (warm) solution for acoustic guitar and vocals thru a sm7b..plugged in clean grace m 201
sure a track without compression or limit will have more detail. but chances are that wont translate in the mix. once the drums are mixed into the project the compressed drums will sound more detailed. and i like pumping drums.
Cheers for gettin back to me! sounds like a nice setup man! I've been thinking of getting a Motu 828 MK3 which looks to be pretty similar to your Presonus? Problem with the 8pre at the mo is I cant use external Pre's as it has no Line ins, so I'd need an upgrade. Oh yeah man how do you have the RNLA and RNC running? do you send them from your software/interface and then return to a line in or something? if so what Software do you use? sorry for all the questions! haha.
@nooneimportant77 The PBC-6A has a "thick" mode; I don't believe the RNC or RNLA have changed since their release.
Great demonstration! I love the character of the RNLA on the bus. Where might I find that exact rack mount?
Thanks! The rack mount is called the Funk Logic LARC-11000. It looks like they may not make them anymore, but I see a few on Reverb.
I found the supernice mode sick ! And overall sound pretty good, i'll definitely get some of these.. Thanks for the video
have you tried it on the 2 bus? u like?
Thanks for the vid! I really like the sound of the RNLA. Have you any experience with the Warm Audio WA76? I got to "play" with one recently, and LOVING it on vocals.Thanks again!
I haven't but I'd love to try one! 1176-style compression is one of my favorite sounds, and I've heard good things about the Warm Audio stuff. I'll have to search for some samples.
Great vid. Subscribed. Can you tell me what overhead mics you're using? Thinking of getting a small diaphragm stereo pair at the moment. Thanks!
Jesse...
Do you have a lil rack full of sideways mounted vtb1's?
That's very cool (f you do) .
Really nice vid comparison and nice drum sound overall. I can tell from your comments you have a sweet tooth for the RNLA. Would you say it works as well for bus compression or mastering? I guess the more transparent RNC would be a better option but I guess a little colour wouldn't be an issue on the master, would it according to your experience?
Yeah, i guess we agree, i was just boring about the way to say it => You got more details from the low volumes, and less from the limited ones. Concerning pumping drums, mater of taste, we could debate this many days ! I'll just say i like a really tiny pumping in some cases, that's all. ^^
is attak on 12 clock 6 ms ?? dont get the numbering r
the drums sound thin without the compression, the compression gives them a fatter more detailed sound and longer sustain. How is that bad? especially for drums?
I will trust you, because it's hard for me to hear the coloration with a bypass test: because the sound is really fatter, that's the thing I'm mostly hearing. Maybe comparing another compressor with the same settings would be easier for me to see what you mean about this specific coloration. In any case, I like how this one sounds. Just two questions : do you really feel the benefits compared to a good compressor plugin ? And do you use it as an insert, if yes : is there a quality loss (ad/da)?
Oh OK, i didn't understand this way ! Thanks a lot for answering, you just confirmed what 60% poeple told me. Some engineers became "in the box mixing" lovers, but they often admitt that a good analog rack makes the work easier and often sounds very easily better. As i only tried bad low end rack compressors (max 120€ for a 2 channels, Samson,, Behringer), it's hard to be objective for now, comparing to some good plugins i have.
Just to be clear, when you're limiting, you loose transients, that's why I said it's not more detailed => But for sure i know what you mean, as you can use the makup gain, the sound will be more detailed in the low and medium volumes, everything that isn't limited.
Which would you suggest I run in a stereo bass guitar rig?
Why your comoressors have a black top and different designe?
They're mounted in the Funk Logic LARC-11000 so they can be racked up with my other gear. Normal RNC and RNLA in there!
Distortion with low frequencies on compressors with short Attack times is inevitable. It happens with almost all compressors
Hi Jessie! Just a question, how do you go about sending the balanced signal into the unbalanced compressors (these units are unbalanced, if I remember correctly)?
ps . Jesse, sorry for the extra "i" :-D
+Andrea Caccese use a balancing patchbay. that way you can switch back and forth between the two. thats what i do.
+Andrea Caccese If you have a balancing patchbay like the suggestion below you could use that, I haven't seen them before. I made some TRS to TS cables, though you can buy them or have them made online too. I just like soldering and was wiring up the rest of my rack anyway.
thats how i get balanced and unbalanced gear to play well with each other. just use a balanced patchbay like... .a dbx pb48 for example. but you should be able to send a balanced signal to a piece of unbalanced gear and have it work fine. just not the other way around. like you cant send an unbalanced signal to an 1176, it wont work. the 1176 is balanced and needs a balanced signal to work correctly. thats when i use a balanced patchbay
I understand this, I use a balanced patchbay as well. The difference here is we're not simply talking about issues sending a balanced signal to an unbalanced piece of gear, it's actually a connection issue here. These FMR pieces are set up to have the option of being used as an insert, so the input is a TRS as you'd expect on a balanced piece of gear, but if you're plugging in a TRS cable it's passing both the input and output in that one cable. Great for consoles or the occasional channel strip that has inserts, but for the rest of us that want to patch it in with other balanced gear a TRS to TS is a nice clean way to do this. Of course there are other ways too, but this is FMR's recommendation and a fairly nice solution.
Not all compressors sound great for all purposes. For example, I'm not a huge fan of an 1176 on full drum buss because of what they do to cymbals. An 1176 might also not be ideal for soft sung vocals, while an LA2A might work better in those cases. If a compressor having settings was all it took to make it work for all purposes then there would only be one compressor ever needed anywhere.
where can i find a rack mount kit like this ?
@@vazdaqui8513 it’s called the Funk Logic LARC-11000. I think they’re not made anymore but you can still find one now and then online.
Easily one of the greatest videos I've ever seen. RNLA seems to be a little bit more on the vintage-warm-fuzzy-roomy side. If you could only have one for the rest of your life, what would you choose?
Please answer this question
I still can't tell the difference on the attack and release changes. What should I be listening for?
Hey, the attack is useful for letting the natural transient of the drum through, but you lose the "peak management" that compression offers. You should listen to the "front end" of a hit on a snare for example. Keep the attack all the way to the left and it has a tendency (depending on how good your comp is) to impart a "nasal" quality to the hit, and it can change a snare that is going "THWACK" to almost a "THIT" sound. If you slowly open up the attack, you'll get the natural hit of the snare and then the compressor will bring up the decay and ring thus fattening up your snare sound. Lots of guys run two sets of compression for this reason. A fattening comp, and then a leveling comp to keep the level up front and the peaks down.
The Release is how long the compressor will hang onto the sound. Its easy to set on snares because you just listen to the decay of the snare, and make sure it's musical. You don't want never ending ring, but it's often good to add some length to the natural ring/decay in slower breathing songs, or shorten the release on faster paced music.
JCBitB
Awesome,thanks man. Just as a starting point what are your settings for kick and snare? I don't want to make you type too much or I would ask for all instruments.
dan meme Unfortunately the settings need to be per drum, per song in my experience. I set the attack knob with my eyes closed, going back and forth between a solo'd drum buss and the whole mix. Just listen for the initial "crack" you get, and go for as natural (or unnatural) as you want it. The release: if it's the Hip Hop "only on 2 and 4" kind of thing you can set it fairly long, if you're mixing a band that plays blast beats, it will need to be a considerably faster release. Also pay attention to ghostnotes and things. Luckily setting release times are more about solving problems than picking between varying degree's of "good". Use your ears man, they are the best and most expensive mics you have!
If you're opening up your attack, I generally like mellower knee and ratio settings, and watch for pumping and what your bleed is doing if you didn't/couldn't gate going into the comp. Also, don't you dare set your compressor (threshold esp) without keeping an eye on your gain reduction!
JCBitB
Cool,right on. There are lots of things to learn for sure. Top 5 tips form you would be? Not just compressor but overall.
dan meme
Overall, I'd say don't over compress your mixes. A lot of times 2 compressors set subtly will accomplish more than just 1 that might be set to smash. Also, on things like bass or esp vocals, you should learn how to automate the volume fader before reaching for compression. If you raise your volume on soft passages and lower the peaks, there's less for your comp to do. Next tip is to highpass almost (if not) everything. I was blessed enough to meet Geoff Daking and he did a whole hour long class on what actually makes it into your mix that you don't realize if you fail to high pass. He had a VERY VERY high dollar monitoring chain that could reproduce the lowest of the low frequencies, and there's a lot of hum and low end energy that is robbing you of head room. I high pass kick drums AND bass guitars, and it's made such a huge improvement on my overall clarity. Even if you have a female vocal that doesn't seem to have much low frequency content, high pass it anyway! 100% you will hear a difference if you HP everything in your entire mix, and oddly enough I'm willing to bet that you'll perceive MORE bass.
Final tip is subscribe to TapeOp magazine. They will deliver it for free if you don't mind it being printed on recycled paper and getting put on a mailing list. Single best recording magazine there is, for folks who are in love with recording music of ALL kinds. About half of it still goes right over my head, but I love going back to issues I read cover to cover to find hidden gems and things that I couldn't understand before. GO DO IT! and good luck man.
Well, that's a compressor you can set, what's amazing ?
this would be an all purpose compressor for me.
Yeah, mostly agreed with you.
Sounds fatter : True
More detailed : Not true in case of a limiting (but i personally like the effect of a moderate limiter on a drum, and hate when the compressor has a low release and is pumping).
Longer sustain can be a problem in some cases, then you may not compress the overall drum, or then gates will be your friend ! :o))
Would either of these FMR units be good for master buss compression?
Good question. I've never used them there myself but it'd be worth a try. The RNC seems like a more obvious and versatile option since it can be very clean and transparent, although it can get a little fuzzy when using extremely bass heavy sounds, so I think it would depend on the mix. The RNLA has a bit more of a noticeable, slower/thickening sound so it could be beautiful, or could be too much of an effect on the wrong mix. I could see it working nicely for slower/more sparse mixes, maybe something like Ray LaMontagne kind of stuff, but might not work as well on dense/faster/more aggressive mix.
Jesse Gimbel Ah, thanks for the response. I primarily make electronic music (techno/deep house/etc) ranging from 114-150 bpm, and it's often bass-heavy. I basically want something that I can slap on the whole mix (lightly) before printing...
Ah okay. The RNLA might be better for that situation as I've often found electronic music to benefit from a little glue (which the RNLA provides) vs clean volume leveling like the RNC. But it depends what result you're going for. You could send me a song of yours and I could run it through both boxes and you could see what you like.
Even in parallel I don't tend to go too heavy-handed with compression when it's on the mix buss. "Loudness" is definitely better left for the mastering engineer though, there's a lot more to it than just compressing and turning it up - namely gain staging, which is one of the most important things. I've never tried the RNLA on a mix buss but it could be cool for a project that has a ton of separation and needs some gelling, but in general it wouldn't be my first choice for most mixing or mastering projects I do.
I'm well aware of the use of parallel compression, and while I'd blend in a heavy-handed version of a drum buss with a clean drum buss, I still wouldn't go heavy handed even just blending in a little for the mix buss. Obviously it doesn't need to be quite as subtle as if it weren't being done in parallel, but still, heavily compressing a mix even to blend in to any perceivable level doesn't seem like great advice.
I agree that leaving too much for mastering means the mix isn't done properly when it comes to the balance of instruments and the overall frequency spectrum, even the amount of compression. But not at all for the volume. For many years people have had a terrible habit of recording hotter than they need to to try to get things sounding pretty loud during the mix, which is not only completely unnecessary but is detrimental to the mix and gives it a pinched, flat sound. Mastering should absolutely be subtle, but real leveling, peak limiting, etc. the pieces that go into bringing things up that extra bit. In this age of being able to record at 24 bits, with that amount of dynamic range there is no need to be pushing things all the way to the top before mastering - a mix peaking at -6 is more than enough. If you have a final mix that is already loud then it severely limits what can be done to it in mastering - the engineer needs room to make boosts or cuts. Sure I suppose you could just limit what can be done to improve your own mixes to make it so mastering doesn't really change anything, but I'm a fan of hiring people who do quality work to improve things and I don't want to impose my own unnecessary limits on what I'm hiring them to do (hypothetically. Realistically I do as many mastering jobs as mixing these days).
Xenda54, it's a no brainer dude.
You choose your gear according to your piggy bank.
Audio gear is always more expensive when you pay for higher quality.
6:32 4:47
Not meant as a criticism, but the drum part itself could have been played more "evenly" and thereby reduce the need for leveling.
Upgrade the snare
Thanks for the useful comment!
That limiting setup, high comp, quick release, should say something about the mix having way too much kick to begin with.
Comp, at 10:1 + setting, didn't touch the snare....
Less kick, let that beautiful compressor do its thing.
Maybe you should upgrade your hair.
What a surprise, another little pansy hiding behind an account with no videos of their own, not even a picture of themselves, making completely useless comments. What a waste of a person.
I'm talking about the specific coloration as in the compression characteristics, not the signal path alone. Anyway, yes I do find benefits to using a good compressor plugin. There is an ease with using hardware, I find it easier to get the compression sitting where I want without hearing artifacts I'm not looking for as much.