I'm old so I'm just going to throw this out: high grip tracks have ruined offroad racing. The loose, rough surfaces was a great equalizer and made the racing more fun and closer. It also meant that your setup didn't matter as much.
Knowing you can show up with 1 set of tires is a game changer. No tire chasing. Locally we have an outdoor and indoor track. While we wanted to push outdoor 1/10 the locals just didn’t have the same interest. The loose rough surfaces still exist, it’s just 1/8 racing. Not 1/10.
@@Madvizion Thanks. =) I've been thinking of trying to form an RC club like they do in the UK to organize an outdoor dirt track. I'm thinking to pitch it to my town as an opportunity to get kids involved in STEM.
I left the hobby in 1999 and came back in 2021. The change was absolutely insane to me when I came back. Instead of cutting comms and pushing cells now it’s all about setup and tires. My stock 2wd and 4wd buggies as well as my 13.5 stadium truck would absolutely dominate mod brushed cars from back in the day. It’s crazy!!!
I am right there with you man!! Stopped in 99, but now I have a 5 year old that is super into it, so I start researching, and holy crap is there a lot to relearn and even more new stuff to learn, but down the rabbit hole we travel. The beauty of kids is they are helping me rediscover some of my old favorite hobbies, but now I have a wallet that can support it. lol. Adulting has its perks.
I remember my whole world changing when I got a Rooster ESC for my RC-10. The rheostat thing was a disaster... Used to just race it around the forest with a couple of my friends who had a Tamiya Hornet, and another guy who had a Tamiya Hotshot. Those were some good times.
Great video and a decent explanation of early day RC. I started racing in the late 80’s as we had probably one of the first indoor tracks in the country, or at least my state. It was made up of imported Georgia red clay and watered down periodically and scraped. When it was wet and scraped, the tract was slow and sloggy, but after a few races the track sped up and became better. We used medium pin tires and ribs on the front. Traction was good unless the track dried out and then we’d change to mini pins, we never used tire sauce as this is new to me today. As far as batteries. We used 6 C cell nicad batteries that were already put together. You could and some bought battery cells and soldered them, but you really didn’t need to. I started racing a Tamiya Fox, with a stock motor. Brushed and stock was anything that turned below 30k rpm, modified was up to 65k. When Associated started getting popular I switched to an RC 10 going back and forth between aluminum and graphite chassis depending on the track and racing. Most all of the tracks I raced in Florida were Georgia clay but outdoor tracks like where the Winter Nationals were, were a little more dusty and loose. When Losi started they made motors and batteries and I was sponsored by them for my stock motors and batteries. The cool thing about NiCads back then is they would talk about 15-20 mins for a full charge and they really lasted about 10-15 mins but about the 8 min mark you could see the performance drop, but races didn’t last much past that. I only used manual speed controllers for a real short time, when Novak introduced their electric speed controllers. With these and the introduction of faster servos it really made 1/10 scale racing explode on the competition front. The older batteries could be used and then discharged by plugging a light bulb into the battery and letting it drain. Then you could recharge them and get a full charge. Cars today definitely have more complication to them, older cars I think were easier to adjust and make track ready. Today there seems to be more adjustments and intricacies to make them competitive. Either way today’s cars are really good and electronics are so much better but also more complicated too. Thanks again for your videos. Very entertaining.
I just started, and from the eyes of a newbie, the local track likes to make the tracks very technical. The track is more geared towards experts, angled jumps, unforgiving jumps if you come up short, off chambered corners, etc, Instead of being focused on actually racing against others, I'm more focused on just trying to make it around the track without crashing.
Dude then your in the best environment to learn how to race. No one has ever won on the first lap or their first race. Failure is the way to success. Suck it up and embrace it.
@Madvizion There are a couple jumps on the current layout that I just can't do. I went on a practice day and didn't even do laps, just hitting those to sections over and over, and I just can't get through them clean, which leaves the only option to roll through those two sections. With that being the case, doing well is out of the question when there are others jumping through.
@RoachRC Whip it RC in Reno Nevada, we have some really good local experts that travel to some of the big nationals, etc. I'm a newbie and not really expecting to win, but I do find it a little discouraging that there are some sections that I just can't do even on a practice day of practicing just that section over and over. It's not just a mistake, but I just flat out can't do it. So the only option is to slow up and roll through. I can send video if you have a place to send it. It won't let me share it here.
rear vs mid, new vs old, brushed vs brushless, nicd/nimh vs lipo... theres lots of things to unpack here. lets start with rear vs mid. rear motor is great in low grip conditions, but it lacks the balance of a mid car. that being said, it was far different way back when because the cars themselves - ie rolling chassis didnt weigh as much as they do these days, and your electronics were heavy. its opposite of that now, the car is heavy, the electronics dont weigh much at all. why is that important? because you can take a vintage car and put weight in it to achieve the weight bias numbers you want. that being said, is a vintage car better? no, not generally, however you can make it drive pretty well compared to modern cars as a result. the new stuff has the advantage with better engineering and evolutions in geometry. could a manufacturer engineer a modern rear motor car with current geometry? absolutely. and it would be on par with a mid car in terms of corner speed. the reason they dont is because it would require further engineering or design, and the current mindset of mid motor is the way is going to carry over when customers are looking for a car. people view rear motor as old, outdated tech, even if it was on a brand new car. if AE released a rear car that was equal on speed on track as their mid car, what do you think people are going to buy?... the mid car. its all about perception. theres different scenarios where one has an advantage over the other, but in reality both are capable in pretty much any application. a mid car lacks rear end grip, and a rear car lacks the corner speed. thats just the way they are designed. one advantage a mid car has over rear that most people wouldnt think about is how it handles rutts. a mid car kinda floats over rutts due to the weight distribution, whereas a rear car generally has a bucking effect due to the added weight in the rear. one added advantage to a rear car is the swing weight factor, which allows you to throw the car into a corner and confidently know it will stick. this also means the way you drive the car is completely different from a mid car. a mid car rotates on the front end, a rear car you pitch it into a corner and drive it on the rear end while pivoting on the front tires. brushed vs brushless, theres a ton of reasons to have brushless. its more efficient, smoother, and better controlled with modern electronics. but the brushed motors back in the day were pretty good for what they were. and you didnt need to buy a $150 stock motor to be competitive. speed controls lacked the tuning, so most of your throttle control was in your trigger finger or motor tuning. speed wise, a current 17.5 is comparable to the speed of a 13x2 in the brushed days. batteries - run time is the biggest thing with lipo over nimh/nicd. weight is key, again this is important because now we can place weight more effectively in the car. i dont miss the days of the car going flat with a minute or so left in a 4 or 5 minute race, or struggling to make a full 5 minute race even. or a 4 minute mod race. old vs new, its personal preference. vintage cars the durability was always an issue. modern cars are built much more robust, far more durable. i cant tell you how many times ive watched a 4 wheel go tumbling and cringe thinking oooh thats broke... only for it to be perfectly fine. you do that with a 4 wheel from the 90s and its going to get expensive really, really quickly. back in the day we had a lot of attrition. the cars were vulnerable to things like ball cups popping off, ball studs breaking, suspension arms breaking, turnbuckles bending or snapping, and lots of e-clips coming loose which resulted in a dnf when it fell out. so it was an added thing to check regularly. setup wise, imo a vintage car is easier to tune, and much more forgiving. you can be a mile off on setup and the car will still go around the track half way decently. do that to your mid car and its going to be a long day. mid cars are very picky with setup, and very unforgiving. if its off by a little, its off by a lot. everything is amplified since they are already on a knife edge. the tracks and cars evolved, and here we are. love it or hate it, it is what it is. personally, i prefer old school loose dirt throwing rooster tails behind the car vs racing on carpet with an obstacle course feel.
Man love it.Thank you for sharing. I missed the first race in my area. Just opened a new track in the grey station. 💨🔥👍always . Wooo. Thank you for sharing 😊
This is pretty accurate in terms of what racing was. For context my first race car was a Tamiya Hornet, much like the one in my avatar. I do think there was something to be learned on a loose farm dirt track. What I think was better about racing in the mid 80s was I think it was more accessible for someone young. I ran the Hornet for quite a while before moving to a Fox and eventually a JRX2 the year it released. There was not as much setup on an old race car, not as many adjustments & as I recall most off road cars ran the suspension fully extended. The concept of droop was not really a thing then. I also ran on-road carpet in the early 2000's before black CRC carpet. I will disagree that the tires lasted a long time, my RC12L4 seemed to eat tires, but I was running an 8x2 at the time. Also, you did not mention 12th scale pan used a 4 cell straddle pack but that class has always been more of a niche. Currently I am racing 1/10th scale 2wd and 4wd and I do enjoy it, but for sure jumps are much bigger now than they were in the past.
Having started 1/10 off-road racing back in the "good old days" I enjoy racing now more than BITD. A huge reason is cost, nicads had memory and you only wanted to use them once a day. If you ran 2wd, 4wd and truck, along with running stock and mod, you needed 6 and 7 cell packs, SCR, SC and/or SCE packs (when they were released). SCR was typically used for stock but could be used for mod though you needed to be mindful about runtime since SCRs had lower IRs. SC then SCE were used more for modified, the SCEs having higher capacity along with a bit higher IR. Okay, did you need flat or hump style packs (if running 7 cells), if you ran 4wd you needed saddle packs, 6 and 7 cells if you ran stock and mod. For years there weren't battery hold downs available that went the length of the pack so for a lot of years those saddle packs were strictly for 4wd. Come the early 90s you could easily spend $100+ for a TOTL 7 cell SCE pack (by pack I mean loose cells you assemble yourself), you could have over a grand tied up in batteries. Motors were a whole other can of worms. Yeah tires could last a while but you paid dearly for everything else. The folks that complain about todays tracks and pine for the loose, loamy tracks seem like they are less interested in competition and are more into the social aspect, not wanting to put in the work to get a car setup right since way back when you could just throw a car on the track and be fairly competitive. You need to have your tire game on point, know how to setup your car and be consistent, that all takes time and work. It can be part of the fun but it can also be a little frustrating lol That being said, I know so much more now about what various setup changes do now than I ever did back then because it matters so much more nowadays. The quantity of 1/10 off road racers aren't anywhere near they were BITD but the quality, the level of competition is so much higher now, I love that!
Original 1/10 2wd classic brushed buggy racing looks like a blast and is a treat to watch. Would you be interested in covering 1/5 scale racing? Silver state 1/5 scale was a little bit ago and I can’t find much info on what a lot builds were and what kind of option parts and tire choices they have.
@@RoachRC I’d imagine a lot of components are self fabricated and R&D largely being done by the people competing with them. If you ever do get more info on it would love to see a video!
i dont miss the era of NIMH and brushed engines, the only problem i can see is that the hi bite tracks and cars geting so much faster now days then in the past and rules should change to use less powerfull motors, stock 13T should be 17T and 17T would be 21T motors ETC. that way its more easy for the average weekend warior and beguinner to feel they are also in the game rather then "insert name" full sponsored factory driver with a 4.5T motor going the speed of sound barrier down the straights.
having only being able to run my ultima pro (1988) with modern and general track time shows some companies built them tough it took a ton of beating and wasn't fazed for Kyosho I would say their old models had very good durability.
I have a ton of vintage cars but I hate using them because of parts support. The B6 is cheap as crap now and drives on dirt better than all the rear motor cars.
Newer cars are beefed up. I ran a losi xx with 8th scale buggies. I was faster had more control. But broke easy. Was fun but an odd match up. A modern losi or are biggie. I would have dominated
I actually DONT like the feel of a mid motor 2wd off road car. They feel less "chuckable". I feel like i must be the only person who has BOTH the redcat twister models and a blitz! I came into the hobby just as the brushed motors were dying off, i also love the more natural feel of a brushed motor, brushless is souless but powerfull
I'm old so I'm just going to throw this out: high grip tracks have ruined offroad racing. The loose, rough surfaces was a great equalizer and made the racing more fun and closer. It also meant that your setup didn't matter as much.
Knowing you can show up with 1 set of tires is a game changer. No tire chasing. Locally we have an outdoor and indoor track. While we wanted to push outdoor 1/10 the locals just didn’t have the same interest. The loose rough surfaces still exist, it’s just 1/8 racing. Not 1/10.
@@cf5914 that's exactly what I was trying to get across with my comment. The loose tracks were a great equalizer.
Well said "young" man. Lol.
@@Madvizion Thanks. =) I've been thinking of trying to form an RC club like they do in the UK to organize an outdoor dirt track. I'm thinking to pitch it to my town as an opportunity to get kids involved in STEM.
@@cf5914 all the luck and best wishes to you sir
I left the hobby in 1999 and came back in 2021. The change was absolutely insane to me when I came back. Instead of cutting comms and pushing cells now it’s all about setup and tires. My stock 2wd and 4wd buggies as well as my 13.5 stadium truck would absolutely dominate mod brushed cars from back in the day. It’s crazy!!!
I am right there with you man!! Stopped in 99, but now I have a 5 year old that is super into it, so I start researching, and holy crap is there a lot to relearn and even more new stuff to learn, but down the rabbit hole we travel. The beauty of kids is they are helping me rediscover some of my old favorite hobbies, but now I have a wallet that can support it. lol. Adulting has its perks.
4:13 I miss old URC vids.
10:25 very rare "you are a rolling star" racing moment
🏁😅
I miss URC so much! Man I fell in love with tuning and fixing my own car when I was 16 haha.
I remember my whole world changing when I got a Rooster ESC for my RC-10. The rheostat thing was a disaster... Used to just race it around the forest with a couple of my friends who had a Tamiya Hornet, and another guy who had a Tamiya Hotshot. Those were some good times.
Great video and a decent explanation of early day RC. I started racing in the late 80’s as we had probably one of the first indoor tracks in the country, or at least my state. It was made up of imported Georgia red clay and watered down periodically and scraped. When it was wet and scraped, the tract was slow and sloggy, but after a few races the track sped up and became better.
We used medium pin tires and ribs on the front. Traction was good unless the track dried out and then we’d change to mini pins, we never used tire sauce as this is new to me today.
As far as batteries. We used 6 C cell nicad batteries that were already put together. You could and some bought battery cells and soldered them, but you really didn’t need to.
I started racing a Tamiya Fox, with a stock motor. Brushed and stock was anything that turned below 30k rpm, modified was up to 65k.
When Associated started getting popular I switched to an RC 10 going back and forth between aluminum and graphite chassis depending on the track and racing.
Most all of the tracks I raced in Florida were Georgia clay but outdoor tracks like where the Winter Nationals were, were a little more dusty and loose.
When Losi started they made motors and batteries and I was sponsored by them for my stock motors and batteries. The cool thing about NiCads back then is they would talk about 15-20 mins for a full charge and they really lasted about 10-15 mins but about the 8 min mark you could see the performance drop, but races didn’t last much past that.
I only used manual speed controllers for a real short time, when Novak introduced their electric speed controllers. With these and the introduction of faster servos it really made 1/10 scale racing explode on the competition front.
The older batteries could be used and then discharged by plugging a light bulb into the battery and letting it drain. Then you could recharge them and get a full charge.
Cars today definitely have more complication to them, older cars I think were easier to adjust and make track ready. Today there seems to be more adjustments and intricacies to make them competitive.
Either way today’s cars are really good and electronics are so much better but also more complicated too.
Thanks again for your videos. Very entertaining.
Have you seen the push lately for nitro truck? Ignite conversion kits are popping off.
Man I love your videos! Always the best information and always bringing back RC nostalgia🙌🏼 Keep it up man!
roach is good with his videos as he does something informative interesting and different then most other RC related youtubers.
I just started, and from the eyes of a newbie, the local track likes to make the tracks very technical.
The track is more geared towards experts, angled jumps, unforgiving jumps if you come up short, off chambered corners, etc,
Instead of being focused on actually racing against others, I'm more focused on just trying to make it around the track without crashing.
That’s legit! Meaning, while you’re learning…. Just focus on trying to make a smooth, clean, non crash lap. The speed will come later!
Keep it up 👍
Dude then your in the best environment to learn how to race. No one has ever won on the first lap or their first race. Failure is the way to success.
Suck it up and embrace it.
@Madvizion There are a couple jumps on the current layout that I just can't do. I went on a practice day and didn't even do laps, just hitting those to sections over and over, and I just can't get through them clean, which leaves the only option to roll through those two sections. With that being the case, doing well is out of the question when there are others jumping through.
It takes time to figure out a tough section, even more so if you're not as adept at the wheel yet, what track are you at?
@RoachRC Whip it RC in Reno Nevada, we have some really good local experts that travel to some of the big nationals, etc.
I'm a newbie and not really expecting to win, but I do find it a little discouraging that there are some sections that I just can't do even on a practice day of practicing just that section over and over. It's not just a mistake, but I just flat out can't do it. So the only option is to slow up and roll through. I can send video if you have a place to send it. It won't let me share it here.
rear vs mid, new vs old, brushed vs brushless, nicd/nimh vs lipo...
theres lots of things to unpack here.
lets start with rear vs mid. rear motor is great in low grip conditions, but it lacks the balance of a mid car. that being said, it was far different way back when because the cars themselves - ie rolling chassis didnt weigh as much as they do these days, and your electronics were heavy. its opposite of that now, the car is heavy, the electronics dont weigh much at all. why is that important? because you can take a vintage car and put weight in it to achieve the weight bias numbers you want. that being said, is a vintage car better? no, not generally, however you can make it drive pretty well compared to modern cars as a result. the new stuff has the advantage with better engineering and evolutions in geometry. could a manufacturer engineer a modern rear motor car with current geometry? absolutely. and it would be on par with a mid car in terms of corner speed. the reason they dont is because it would require further engineering or design, and the current mindset of mid motor is the way is going to carry over when customers are looking for a car. people view rear motor as old, outdated tech, even if it was on a brand new car. if AE released a rear car that was equal on speed on track as their mid car, what do you think people are going to buy?... the mid car. its all about perception.
theres different scenarios where one has an advantage over the other, but in reality both are capable in pretty much any application. a mid car lacks rear end grip, and a rear car lacks the corner speed. thats just the way they are designed. one advantage a mid car has over rear that most people wouldnt think about is how it handles rutts. a mid car kinda floats over rutts due to the weight distribution, whereas a rear car generally has a bucking effect due to the added weight in the rear.
one added advantage to a rear car is the swing weight factor, which allows you to throw the car into a corner and confidently know it will stick. this also means the way you drive the car is completely different from a mid car. a mid car rotates on the front end, a rear car you pitch it into a corner and drive it on the rear end while pivoting on the front tires.
brushed vs brushless, theres a ton of reasons to have brushless. its more efficient, smoother, and better controlled with modern electronics. but the brushed motors back in the day were pretty good for what they were. and you didnt need to buy a $150 stock motor to be competitive. speed controls lacked the tuning, so most of your throttle control was in your trigger finger or motor tuning.
speed wise, a current 17.5 is comparable to the speed of a 13x2 in the brushed days.
batteries - run time is the biggest thing with lipo over nimh/nicd. weight is key, again this is important because now we can place weight more effectively in the car. i dont miss the days of the car going flat with a minute or so left in a 4 or 5 minute race, or struggling to make a full 5 minute race even. or a 4 minute mod race.
old vs new, its personal preference. vintage cars the durability was always an issue. modern cars are built much more robust, far more durable. i cant tell you how many times ive watched a 4 wheel go tumbling and cringe thinking oooh thats broke... only for it to be perfectly fine. you do that with a 4 wheel from the 90s and its going to get expensive really, really quickly. back in the day we had a lot of attrition. the cars were vulnerable to things like ball cups popping off, ball studs breaking, suspension arms breaking, turnbuckles bending or snapping, and lots of e-clips coming loose which resulted in a dnf when it fell out. so it was an added thing to check regularly.
setup wise, imo a vintage car is easier to tune, and much more forgiving. you can be a mile off on setup and the car will still go around the track half way decently. do that to your mid car and its going to be a long day. mid cars are very picky with setup, and very unforgiving. if its off by a little, its off by a lot. everything is amplified since they are already on a knife edge.
the tracks and cars evolved, and here we are. love it or hate it, it is what it is. personally, i prefer old school loose dirt throwing rooster tails behind the car vs racing on carpet with an obstacle course feel.
Man love it.Thank you for sharing. I missed the first race in my area. Just opened a new track in the grey station. 💨🔥👍always . Wooo. Thank you for sharing 😊
another great video from roach man. 👍
This is pretty accurate in terms of what racing was. For context my first race car was a Tamiya Hornet, much like the one in my avatar. I do think there was something to be learned on a loose farm dirt track. What I think was better about racing in the mid 80s was I think it was more accessible for someone young. I ran the Hornet for quite a while before moving to a Fox and eventually a JRX2 the year it released. There was not as much setup on an old race car, not as many adjustments & as I recall most off road cars ran the suspension fully extended. The concept of droop was not really a thing then. I also ran on-road carpet in the early 2000's before black CRC carpet. I will disagree that the tires lasted a long time, my RC12L4 seemed to eat tires, but I was running an 8x2 at the time. Also, you did not mention 12th scale pan used a 4 cell straddle pack but that class has always been more of a niche. Currently I am racing 1/10th scale 2wd and 4wd and I do enjoy it, but for sure jumps are much bigger now than they were in the past.
Having started 1/10 off-road racing back in the "good old days" I enjoy racing now more than BITD. A huge reason is cost, nicads had memory and you only wanted to use them once a day. If you ran 2wd, 4wd and truck, along with running stock and mod, you needed 6 and 7 cell packs, SCR, SC and/or SCE packs (when they were released). SCR was typically used for stock but could be used for mod though you needed to be mindful about runtime since SCRs had lower IRs. SC then SCE were used more for modified, the SCEs having higher capacity along with a bit higher IR. Okay, did you need flat or hump style packs (if running 7 cells), if you ran 4wd you needed saddle packs, 6 and 7 cells if you ran stock and mod. For years there weren't battery hold downs available that went the length of the pack so for a lot of years those saddle packs were strictly for 4wd. Come the early 90s you could easily spend $100+ for a TOTL 7 cell SCE pack (by pack I mean loose cells you assemble yourself), you could have over a grand tied up in batteries. Motors were a whole other can of worms. Yeah tires could last a while but you paid dearly for everything else. The folks that complain about todays tracks and pine for the loose, loamy tracks seem like they are less interested in competition and are more into the social aspect, not wanting to put in the work to get a car setup right since way back when you could just throw a car on the track and be fairly competitive. You need to have your tire game on point, know how to setup your car and be consistent, that all takes time and work. It can be part of the fun but it can also be a little frustrating lol That being said, I know so much more now about what various setup changes do now than I ever did back then because it matters so much more nowadays. The quantity of 1/10 off road racers aren't anywhere near they were BITD but the quality, the level of competition is so much higher now, I love that!
Roach do you race at FORC in Arkansas. I just started racing and ill be there this winter
I'll probably try and come out there to race this winter
@@RoachRC I built my B7 kit last weekend and raced it this weekend. Had a blast.
Original 1/10 2wd classic brushed buggy racing looks like a blast and is a treat to watch. Would you be interested in covering 1/5 scale racing? Silver state 1/5 scale was a little bit ago and I can’t find much info on what a lot builds were and what kind of option parts and tire choices they have.
I would but 5th scale is on another level in terms of pure cost and scarcity
@@RoachRC I’d imagine a lot of components are self fabricated and R&D largely being done by the people competing with them. If you ever do get more info on it would love to see a video!
Man I remember the days of building my own battery packs. Then lipo came in, no more cycling NiCad packs lol.
i dont miss the era of NIMH and brushed engines, the only problem i can see is that the hi bite tracks and cars geting so much faster now days then in the past and rules should change to use less powerfull motors, stock 13T should be 17T and 17T would be 21T motors ETC.
that way its more easy for the average weekend warior and beguinner to feel they are also in the game rather then "insert name" full sponsored factory driver with a 4.5T motor going the speed of sound barrier down the straights.
Like grass and turf football fields . Gotta adjust
having only being able to run my ultima pro (1988) with modern and general track time shows some companies built them tough it took a ton of beating and wasn't fazed for Kyosho I would say their old models had very good durability.
Dunno about the rc10t3 being fragile ive ran mine pretty hard over the years ive had it. The only thing is the diff will cook if i run it too loose
I have a ton of vintage cars but I hate using them because of parts support. The B6 is cheap as crap now and drives on dirt better than all the rear motor cars.
Newer cars are beefed up. I ran a losi xx with 8th scale buggies. I was faster had more control. But broke easy. Was fun but an odd match up. A modern losi or are biggie. I would have dominated
I actually DONT like the feel of a mid motor 2wd off road car. They feel less "chuckable". I feel like i must be the only person who has BOTH the redcat twister models and a blitz! I came into the hobby just as the brushed motors were dying off, i also love the more natural feel of a brushed motor, brushless is souless but powerfull
have you tried mid motor dirt cars that generaly got the engine further back to get more weight over rear tires?
Have you seen the hornet evo?
Nope
@RoachRC it went through a major upgrade take a look.
i think rckicks is more in to the vintage and rere stuff.
@extec101 yes But this is brand new with updates.
Don't knock it before you see it. It no longer has rigid axel and totally new front suspension.