From a Mizrahi Jew here where my great grandparents lived in Jerusalem and southern Syria. I understand what he’s trying to do and it is appreciated, but he is leaving out so much part of the history it kind of breaks my heart.
I agree a lot of history and nuances are left out and to beg people not to be zionists without ever giving his definition of Zionism makes me feel uneasy in this particular climate of post Oct 7.
I just watched almost this entire production. From Jay Shapiro’s initial comments regarding Zionism and his definition of Zionism and then his extolling the people who have helped him form his opinions (Shlomo Sand; Gideon Levy, Miko Peled; all of whom I am very familiar with), I am appalled at his cherry-picking of history, his use of common far-left terminology (Zionist Project; colonial entity; looking at “Palestine” as if it was every an actual nation built on a national identity), his lack of understanding of what had happened with the governing Ottoman Empire that was already on the verge of collapse by WWI, and the role of the British during the mandate when they tried everything to suppress Jewish immigration in order to appease the Arabs because OIL, and even the reason that European and Mizrachi/Sephardic Jews weren’t necessarily Zionists prior to WWII to be ignorant of the reality of the time. What is it about some secular Jews that they have such disdain for more observant Jews? That attitude just reeked out of him. Sorry. Yasmine. I have been an admirer of yours. But you need to learn about Israel and Jews from better sources and not someone so clearly dogmatically on the far left.
Couldn’t agree more. I started watching being curious. But as soon as he started pouring dirt on the Jewish experience as being somehow illegitimate/faked, I was asking myself: what’s going on here?
The Jewish people in the late 19th, early 20th century toiling under the blazing sun to drain the swamp so to build the Tele Viv. Building desalation plants to water the desolate land to produce the blooming farms. 2 examples that could never be mare myths.
I totally agree. I was disgusted at how he was lecturing women suffering in the middle east by demanding that they not support Israel and calling for the dismantling of Israel as a Jewish state as a way to pacify Islamic supremacists. The arrogance and hubris of this self-important American Jew is astounding.
@@patzan48Thanks. I used to have a great deal of respect for Yasmine, but one way I judge a public person is by the people they platform and promote. I took a look at Jay Shapiro’s own website and was utterly appalled at his demonization of Israel and the majority of Jews that support Israel. I watched this before the Oscars last Sunday when another Jew, Jonathan Glazer, made a shanda of himself in front of the entire world.
@@sandrakessler5499 Yes, he's ill-informed. Maybe Yasmine didn't know beforehand? He worked with Sam Harris so that's probably why he got the connection. Sam Harris seems like a nice guy, I could see him helping out someone as junior as this dude. But seriously - it's like, what if this was the only thing your racist uncle heard about Israel and Zionism?!! This guest is sending such a lopsided message, it's irresponsible. He needs to learn to drop the far left American bias before opening his mouth. It's so uncomfortable to listen to if you already have background knowledge.
Interesting. I had different experiences growing up in Israel. All I’ve heard is that we (also) wronged Palestinians and they deserve to be free in their own state and if only will offer them a state they’ll become peaceful partners and we’ll be able to benefit each others… I’m 43 years old now with 3 kinds and I know we’ve bullshit ourselves for so long into not seeing that big parts of the Palestinian society doesn’t want peace or being free, they biggest priority is eradicating Israel (they were willing to refuse statehood for that). I hope one day it’ll be different and hope that when that day will come it won’t be too late for them and for us.
I'm from New Zealand but lived in Israel working with both Palestinians and Israelis so I have an interest, and listen extensively to both Israeli and Palestinians (who are not hi-jacked by Islamism). I'm 26min into this and can already tell this is a man who has a very close minded, egotistical approach which is very damaging to both sides. He has formed his personal views on this conflict, is sticking to it, and wants to tell it, even though his lack of willingness or ability (probably both) to look at a deeper history means he sounds like he has an immature almost woke college type of approach. I'm not wasting my time, someone please give this man suggestions on how he can expand his worldview and critical thinking, especially on this subject.
As an 60+American Jew, I spent many years in Israel. I traveled and lived in other countries, explored Buddhism etc yet have come to realize that being born and raised in the west is a blessing. Not all cultures are beneficial for the best of human flourishing so I feel that Zionism doesn't even compare to the extreme death cult that is Islamism and a unfortunately large amount of the world's Muslims according to people such as Robert Spencer.
Buddha stepped out of his comfort zone to properly explain in simple terms the perfect Hindu religion (at the end of the Mahabharata the hero refuses heaven as learns that the stray dog following him is not allowed to enter !) (I do sigritism), unfortunately the Muslims don't understand budda . islam never change minds about the Jews, as their prophet was poisoned by a Jewish woman (she was right) the basis of their religion is first the extermination of the Jews and then the subjugation of the planet... what we call western civilization was born when the Stoic philosophers, understood the innovative explanation of the Jewish Jesus (through the Jewish Paul) finally found the vehicle that would change the world (the interpretations of the books of the Jews by the rabbis they knew and had rejected)..the Christian faith it is the different interpretation of the same books (which however deprives the sense of the superior race from the Jews) Jesus is not a Radical. ,..simply in all the faces of the writings he sees sinners who do not know how to love, he does not see role models ,Adam Eve Abraham Saul David when the test of fear comes,? they fail to defend the one who stands by them.....
The pure comparison is madness , Islamist nut cases started this comparison . The fact that Zionism / Natzism is a curse or a a vile like terrorism and Natzism . Crazy ! The Muslims are smart for making this comparison happened .
Even comparing Zionism to the death cult of Islamism is a disservice. Only the most extreme forms of Zionism, Kach for example (which most Israelis are completely opposed to) compare to the death cult of Islamism. And guess what happened to those forms of Zionism in Israel? Kach is banned😂
Zionism should not be associated with any death cult. Period. It is antisemitic to make such claims. I am an Israeli and a Ph.D. at Brown who studies Asian religious traditions and am a China scholar. I also got my BA and MA in China. I am a scholar of Buddhism. I am saying this to convey that I have a very rich international life experience. Like Shapiro I had to do some unlearning and realize some things about Israel but all Zionism is fundamentally the return of Jews to their ancestral homeland. Was there violence involved? Yes! Was there land theft? Yes!. But it didn’t happen out of context and out of the blue. And no one decries the Jews being kicked out of Arab countries or the fact that mass displacement was also the case for Jews who were forcefully removed from the area over the centuries. That was also the case for my ancestors when they were kicked out of Spain in 1492, and for my grandparents when their properties were taken over by the Nazis and their neighbors. People get displaced. It is ugly and unfair but it is the reality. Still, I don’t see Jews performing death marches on Germany and Europe or dropping an atomic bomb to get even for centuries of oppression and killing. The Palestinians, as a collective (and I know this is not everyone), have made bad choices for themselves. They just did. They could have had their territory but that’s not what they want. They want Jews gone. And I am a left wing Jew. A staunch liberal by any standard. I am so openly critical of Israel but that doesn’t change the facts on the ground. Israel has a record of giving up land, and all land it acquired for itself (settlements aside) was acquired through wars it did not initiate. These are hardcore facts. I don’t care about his story because the story of Israeli Jews and American Jews (and I straddle both identities now but was born and raised in Israel) over the 20th century is quite different.
Once Shapiro announced that his bold solution to the Iran problem is to appease Iran by getting rid of Israel, I discredited every other word that came out of his mouth. Not to mention his offhand suggestion that “everyone just chill out, Hamas return the hostages, and Israel ceasefire.” What planet is he living on?
@@gulanhem9495 he said that dismantling Israel as a Jewish state would pacify Iran and the Middle East in general. As if Israel is the only cause for conflict in the Middle East and its dismantling would not further encourage Iran and other bad actors.
@@pantethine66 Next time I go to an Arab doctor in Israel, I’ll make sure to let him know he’s living in an apartheid. Regardless, I’m fairly confident that only a Muslim theocracy in Israel would make Iran happy.
@@jeremykoloskithe the top three human rights organizations say otherwise but you can believe whatever you want to believe.HERZLIYA, Israel (AP) - A former head of Israel’s Mossad intelligence agency told The Associated Press on Wednesday that Israel is enforcing an apartheid system in the West Bank, joining a tiny but growing list of retired officials to endorse an idea that remains largely on the fringes of Israeli discourse and international diplomacy. Tamir Pardo becomes the latest former senior official to have concluded that Israel’s treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank amounts to apartheid, a reference to the system of racial separation in South Africa that ended in 1994. Leading rights groups in Israel and abroad and Palestinians have accused Israel and its 56-year occupation of the West Bank of morphing into an apartheid system that they say gives Palestinians second-class status and is designed to maintain Jewish hegemony from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea.
Einat Wilf’s understanding of Zionism is very interesting. She authored a book called “We should all be Zionists”. She also co-authored a great book about the Israeli Palestinian conflict. She also made numerous appearances in the media with her talks on this war and on Zionism. She is an atheist and comes from the left political background. Quite a remarkable woman and very compelling.
Fascinating conversation. I taught at a Palestinian university in the West Bank for two years (early 1980s) before the first Intifada. Under Israeli military occupation. Settlements in their infancy. No wall yet. You could drive across the "green line" into Israel -- no checkpoints. I agree with Yasmine -- the majority of Palestinians just wanted to live their lives. It wasn’t a great place to live, but things could have gone differently. There was, however, an intolerant, fundamentalist minority of “Ikhwan” - Muslim Brotherhood - who pushed their way into our lives wherever they could. Nobody liked them. But they eventually gained power, finally morphing into Hamas. Highly motivated (often religious) radicals steamroll “regular” people all the time. We don’t believe (or don’t want to see) that they are dangerous. So, no one stops them and we end up living in their deranged world.
Gee I wonder if israel's violently repressing that civil revolt called the first intifada until both sides started fighting, and Israel rejecting reasonable peace deals had anything to do with Hamas making headway? Afterall, nobody liked them, so how did they steamroll? The world can see that both sides have done what they have done, but only one side is told to get over it or called t*rrorist, when obviously both sides are guilty on both charges.
@@emilianosintarias7337 I'm talking about what I experienced before the first Intifada. I could discuss how bad it was to live under Israeli military occupation. Instead, I'm adding this one thread about the Ikhwan to the larger conversation. You may not believe me, but the majority of Palestinians where I lived (cities and villages) did not like the Ikhwan at that time. Later, however, when the Israeli military closed schools, businesses, etc., the Ikhwan stepped in with social services. Of course they gained popularity. They got support by “helping” desperate people - at a price. Cynical. They were not good people, and you’re lucky you never had to live with them. Also, I’m not telling anyone to “get over it.” Nobody’s going to do that anytime soon.
You misunderstand. I am familiar with the time and place, palestinians didn't even like them much later, I never disagreed with you. I was pointing out what must have happened in the intervening years, as Israel wore palestinians down, for such a group to come to power. @@NotZelda1
@@NotZelda1Exactly the same thing the Ikhwan did across the Muslim majority world- the Egyptians called it the poison in the honey- they build schools etc to look like the saviors and endear ppl to them. By the time the ppl realize the honey was poisoned, the Islamists are too powerful.
Honestly, I can appreciate the fact that he feels like he didn't get the whole story but the fact that he never bothered to fill in the gaps is just sad. It just sounds like he resents his parents and the way he was brought up.
His family is apparently non-religious yet he's seemingly brought up in an Orthodox Jewish school...I think that conflict where you're forced to be taught of this faith while you and your family is not faithful has to be very weird for him.
Jay is rambling. Couldn't answer a question directly and succinctly, which makes me think he's not telling the truth. He says he's not a self-hating Jew yet uses all the tired points of self-hating Jews / Hamas poets. 😮💨
I agree but I don’t think he’s doing this on purpose. I think he knows he’s coming out and stating a view point that’s different from many of his fellow Jews and peers and so is rambling because perhaps he feels worried about talking about about his view? Also unfortunately I think when a group of people, like the Jews, have been randomly blamed and hated on so much for seemingly no reason it’s natural for some to turn this inward, look at flawed past and then side with the accuser…if that makes sense? This can come out as a self hating Jew
@@trexusification 100% it makes sense. I'm a Black male. I totally get the self-hate thing. It's a sad survival mechanism when the world at larges hates you - you internalize the nonsense and you try to virtue signal to your haters "hey, I'm not like those other [Blacks, Jews]. I'm one of the good guys." Very few (brave) people say "no, I'm not gonna internalize the libel and you are wrong for doing that to me."
There’s a constant, sometimes unspoken and sometimes spoken, debate between Jews. Some say Jews should completely assimilate into surrounding society, cast off all cultural and religious “Jewishness” and become just like everyone else and that will make them not hate us. The other group asserts that Jews should instead keep to ourselves. Be insular, do our own thing, dress differently, have our own institutions, because when we try to join the surrounding societies that’s what makes them hate us. Obviously there’s every gradient of beliefs in between but there’s always those two camps debating. Even Karl Marx writes about this (guess which view he took lol). I think Jay leans into the first camp
I was just talking about this shame with a Jewish psychoanalyst friend. I'm a non jew atheist. I wish that Jews would be more proud of their achievements and gifts to the world
As a Christian person of faith, who often gets labelled “religious”, it kind of annoyed me that Jay tried to throw shade at the idea of Zionism by arguing that, soon, after its birth, “religious fanatics” liked the idea. As if an idea becomes bad, as soon as religious people find value in it. As if as soon as religious people like an idea, that in itself is evidence for this idea then being bad.
Having said that, I am impressed to see two people with different views on this topic actually having a civil discourse, without any personal attacks, and most importantly, focussing on a solution and expressing a desire for peace.
Because of a Jew woman,i found you, Yasmine❤ Jews are very kind and nice people who are being punished badly for asking their right to have their Homeland India and Israel suffer same Muslims claim Israel land as their own Muslims claim India as their land, when they couldn't get hold of all India,they demanded Pakistan existence
This sounds like someone who doesn't understand that Palestinian Muslims, Christians or atheists are fighting against the colonization of Palestine. This isn't a Jewish vs Muslim issue... Far from it
10 minutes into Jay talking - sounds like he didn’t study well in his Hebrew school and somehow that’s Israel’s or “Zionist’s” fault. Every Jew knows what Nakba is 🤦🏻♀️Honestly I don’t like talks about privilege, but I don’t know how else to explain this.
@@lissyadams6497Exactly. This man doesn't have a Zionist bone in his body, and is clueless to the nature of the modern Islamist and the danger they pose to "his people".
Some really warped perspectives from Jay, One being the idea that Jews are somehow more white than Palestinians when then actually genetically identical people. This is a religious dispute mores than a territorial one. Jews historically have a unique record of persecution and animosity as a race aswell as a religion. Why I'm a zionist although I'm not Jew is that Judaism isnt a proselytising religion and Islam is. If Israel wasn't surrounded by Islamist baying for their extermination I could understand Jay's perspective a bit more. If you say your not a zionist you are saying the state of Israel should be devolved. Expansion and the settlements are a different issue. Didn't the Houthis have something to do with the Yemen conflict not just Saudi.
Also a non Jewish ally/ Zionist and completely agree. He’s not done enough research, about Middle Eastern Jews (they’re brown and there is no colony because they’re all refugees) living under Islam and over simplified massively, sadly. He exemplifies a middle class Jew who has no need for the state of Israel but benefits from democratic values that he has been immersed in, and like a spoilt child is blaming his parental culture. “The holocaust is awful, and whatever” . The holocaust murdered nearly a half of all Jews on the planet, Jews are only just back to their pre holocaust numbers.
Please see my recent collection for more conversation on the history of Zionism which really might cause you to adjust. But I am certainly open to learning as well. Zionism as you heard is a very slippery idea… but its history is fairly unambiguously ugly.
@@JayShapiroDilemmaHost I have no idea why you expect historical conflict to be attractive, Intractable problems always have relatively matched intractabiltes, or they would get solved. It's not about who has the moral high ground, it's about how a posive way forward can be found from the mess, What about the lasting peace with Egypt in 79 when Sinai was returned, and the efforts made by Ehud Olmert and Abbas, which almost achieved a breakthrough, look what Clinton said about who was responsible for the breakdown of Oslo 2 negotiations, he was in the room, Norman Finklestein wasn't. Israels sworn enemies ie Iran have a never ending supply of Smoterich and Bengvir equivalents that perpetuate each other, but it's not as if there are no good faith actors and no hope despite the bleak picture at the moment, undoubtedly religion on both sides is a major part of the problem for a 1 state solution. Live in hope, after all Japan is one of the US's best allies now despite us nuking them twice. If you pick a side in this conflict your on the wrong one.
the dispute did not start as a religious dispute, on the contrary; the two religions coexisted peacefully before the nationalist political aspirations appeared; zionism and judaism are at odds with each other; zionism was started as an attack to judaism, a secular movement meant to transform jews from the religious Torah studying type to a "modern", secular, nationalist, proud warrior type of people; it's an identity theft; you are not zionist because you prefer judaism to Islam, unless you are uninformed; Israel is surrounded by Islamist enemies because the zionists chose to built the state there, despite the jewish population in the area being just 10% of the total at the turn of the 20th century, and most of them non-zionists (they didn't support the establisment of a jewish state)
As a proud Zionist Jew, I find it fascinating to discuss and listen to different perspectives on the complexities of Jewish identity, Israel and its history, and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. I’ve come to the conclusion that, like so much in life, there will always be more questions than answers- and that’s part of what makes being engaged in all these things so interesting. That being said, this guy’s rambling anti-Israel monologue was so exhausting to listen to, that I started thinking how nice it might be to wake up tomorrow morning as a white, Anglo-Saxon Protestant, not thinking about these things nor feeling like have to explain myself to anyone - instead of endlessly obsessing about Judaism, Israel and anti-Semitism. Just for one day. It would also be nice to wake up one day to find everyone arguing and demonstrating about whether or not Iceland has the right to exist. Or France or Germany or Russia or the USA. Or Iran. No one ever questions whether ANY country on this earth has the right to EXIST- except for Israel.
As an 🇮🇱 Israeli, it's incredibly simple: Zionism is the desire of Jews in the diaspora to live in Israel, and especially in Jerusalem. How simple can it be? This guy has no clue.
He has no idea. He is the typical American Jew with no skin in the game, no need to delay college for 3 years to serve in the army and maybe come home with PTSD after. There are so many people who are way more well-read than this dude, or at least have significant life experience to draw upon. He takes Ilan Pappé seriously, yikes! Wish that Yasmine could have gotten a more knowledgeable guest for this one, her ex-Muslim and Palestinian guests have been wonderful.
@@pantethine66 50% of Jews living in Israel are of Middle Eastern origin exiled penniless from Arab countries after the creation of Israel. Their properties were confiscated. Jews have lived in the Middle East before the birth of Prophet Muhammad. Jews are not the problem. The real problem is Islam. Muslims are indoctrinated to hate Jews from childhood. if Arabs were smart, they’d would have accepted Jews as equal citizens, given equal political rights and complete religious freedom. Jews would’ve made Middle East rich. Jews are great entrepreneurs, create wealth which benefits the larger societies. Jews make the best scientists in the world. They have invented thousands of medicines used by everyone, including Jew hating Muslims. The world should be grateful to Jews.
Ughh, this tiresome. Patronizing and condescending from Jay Shapiro. The woman Cindy Yob made a good comment and the was told to read books. Frankly rude. This is nonsense.
Her family lived it- I think she knows a littttttle more than him. Nothing more aggravating than when people don’t listen to the people who actually LIVED IT. Lived in those times. They are the only ones who know the reality on the ground, which is way more than anyone could ever learn by reading about anything. When people try to explain things to people who actually lived it it shows you how delusional they are. It shows how people just make up stories about history, once it’s history you can make up whatever you want .
He doesn’t have the intellect to understand how different things are in reality when living through them than what you read about a hundred years later.
I feel like this guest has a mistaken and unnecessarily complicated perception of Zionism as something suspicious, controversial and damaging to Jewish people in general. Zionism is not tricky. It’s super simple. It’s a desire of the Jewish people to have their sovereign state. It’s time that we restore the term’s real meaning and normalise it as positive and perfectly acceptable.
It’s like the “academics” who go back in history and try to concoct ideas and re-write history. Someone nefarious made up that Zionism was this underground entity with dark intentions. It’s all just a concocted conspiracy theory about Jews and it’s unbelievable these Jews can’t see through that.
His point of view, while he’s welcome to it, does not represent most Jews. Yes, most Jews are pro-Israel just as many Irish-Americans are pro-Irish and many African Americans have strong feelings about the plight of African peoples. Most Jews are compassionate and care not only about Israel but about other peoples and people in general.
Irish citizens are typically anti-colonization/pro-Irish democracy. Black Americans are also usually anti-colonization/pro-democracy. These are the opposite of being pro-Israel, which is why many members of these groups (Black Americans and Irish citizens) are not fans of the Israeli government.
It seems that to Jay, history started in 1897 AD. Jay talks about the pre-WWI era, but seems to "forget" that the Ottoman Empire was a colonial military expansionist project (that also moved people around and carved out masses of lands and handed them out to appointed leaders) and that the area that is now Israel was called "Surya al-Janubiyya (Southern Syria)," which means that there were no people called Palestinians at that time, and that the El Aqsa mosque was built intentionally on top of the Jewish Temple. Jay is trying to circumvent the argument by going back only 120 or so years back and stops there, while the history of the region goes back thousands of years with different cultures, pre-dating Islam and Christianity, with Jews having a continuous presence.
Does it matter that Palestinians weren't referred to as Palestinians at that time? Also, that area of the world has a long history of various peoples living there together, just like many other places. That is obvious and doesn't contribute to the main points of this episode.
I think the point of Yasmine interviewing this guy is to listen to both sides… principally a good idea. And this is one of the rare discussions where two opposing views of this particular topic can put their views and experiences forward in a calm and reasonably thoughtful way.
Joseph, with the exception of some population clusters, the was mostly empty…there are ample descriptions of the land by multiple explorers (none Jewish explorers) going all the way back into the early 1800s and up to the British conquest that describe how sparsely populated of what the land of what nowadays is called Israel.
I am not shocked that Yasmine invited a self-hating Jewish guy, why not have different points of views. I am more disappointed by the fact that she did not react at certain moments to his anti-Israel biased discourse. He even went as far as talking about appeasing Iran and she did not react. I find THAT shocking.
I deeply appreciated the moral clarity and support of the previous podcast with Sam Harris. It was excellent, and I shared it with many people. I couldn't bear to listen to more than 5 minutes as Jay's story is so limited, and in my opinion, poses a threat to the Jewish people, especially after October 7th. He leaves out SO much of history and perpetuates the "woke" narrative. It left me feeling unseen during this painful time.
The real problem is the religious hatred. I don’t know any Muslim who doesn’t hate Jews. Being from the Indian sub-Continent, I ‘look’ like them. Therefore, Muslims don’t hesitate to express their intense hatred of Jews to me. But I know many Jews, who are sympathetic to Palestinians and condemn Israel. Wherever Muslims are in majority, life of non-Muslims is made hell in Muslim countries in to order force non-Muslims to leave or convert to Islam. This is exactly what happened in the Middle East - Christian population declined to insignificant number since 1960’s. Hindus were 22% in West Pakistan (now Pakistan) in 1947, 15% in 1970, to 1.5% in 2024. In the East Pakistan (now Bangladesh), Hindus were 40% in 1947 down to 8% in 2024. Life of Hindus is hell in both countries. If there were freedoms of religion in the Arab countries and Jews had equal rights, Israel would not be existing. After the creation of Israel in 1948, the entire population of Jews was exiled penniless, their properties confiscated - not a single Jews lives in any Muslim majority country. On the contrary, Arabs constitute 20% of Israeli citizens - with freedom of religion and equal political rights - at least under the law.
They hate Christians and Jewish in particular and hate people of other faiths. It is written clearly in islamic teachings of the quran, hadith, and sunna clearly. Don't make friends with Jewish and Christians. If you do, you are like them dirty, unbelievers, and infidel. What's written about other faiths and what they should do about them is out of this world. Not the Muslims, but the teaching of islam is the cause of all the problems we are witnessing in this era.
This has always been a one-sided conflict with a clear aggressor imo. If I know your religion obliges you to hate and murder another group of people, and that you're encouraged to lie to non-believers about anything, it's pretty easy to conclude who the aggressor will be in any conflict.
I don’t get how he goes from “we have to be truthful and say Israel has a shady foundation” to saying therefore I am not a Zionist. The west has a super shady history but I still love the west and support it. I also don’t believe he ever gave his definition of Zionism. He said what he doesn’t define it as but didn’t say what he does define it as and what he is renouncing and telling others to renounce.
The level of naivety of this guy is amazing. He doesn't want to understand extreme Islam (selective blindness) and the consequences of all in one State with a lot of extremist Muslims .
I have heard people mock the "land without a people for a people without a land" statement, with photos of Arabs in Jaffa etc, BUT THE FACTS ARE Malaria and mosquitoes was a huge problem. Pub-med came up on a Google search for Israel and malaria with a lot of details about the eradication of mosquito breeding grounds. Arabs of Palestine WERE NOT SO STUPID that they lived in swamps, but the swamps were near farms. That and deserts meant a sparse population per acre (or per square mile or km). This also means a MODERN MIRACLE occurred: Jewish refugees and migrants "created land", as well as PURCHASED LAND, so they didn't steal Land from the Arabs. Of course, creating land means making uninhabitable land inhabitable. Jews helped Arabs eradicate mosquitoes on their property too. I learned part of what they did was import eucalyptus from australia, which would not have been possible a century before. *The Nakba or Disaster is defined as beginning with Zionists BUYING LAND from Arabs* . Tel Aviv didn't exist but began to have neighborhoods in 1909 and was originally settled by Yemeni Jews. Since the Left is obsessed with skin color and race like Nazis, they don't define Arabic looking Jews as White colonial settlers or Zionists. You only count as a Zionist to some on the Left if you look like a White European .. yet other Leftists tell Iraqi and Yemeni Jews to go back to Poland. It's that idiotic!! Facts don't matter, identity matters, and they will tell you what your identity is, if you're not a self-defined person of color.
Thank you Yasmine for your excellent podcast. Your courage has inspired me from the first time I heard you speak. Re this episode: I hear and understand everything that Jay is saying about what he learned growing up as compared to the actual messy history. And it may have been his experience that he only heard one side growing up. But most Jews I know grew up understanding that the history was messy. What shocks me is that Jay seems to think that since it was messy, that means the Jews were all wrong (along with Britain), and he glosses over why the clashes happened, as if the Jews just went and started fights and tried to conquer, and that simply is false. He can’t even acknowledge Yasmine’s assertion that her mother (as with many Muslims) hates all Jews without distinguishing Zionists, and that there are actual Arabic sayings about Jews dying - not Zionists. He glosses over it and continuously goes back to asserting that the hate is only against Zionists, and eventually even says that she was just confused because of the Jews’ use of the word Zionism! It’s so condescending and self-important to say that Muslims are just confused, and that he knows what they really mean. Also, we Jews tend to hold ourselves to a higher standard than everyone else, as Jay does here. Even in Jay’s version of history, there was plenty of wrong to go around, and he left out plenty on the Arab side. Yet Jay is willing to throw the Jews under the bus. He says that if he gets what he ultimately wants, “it will be rough” for Israel - nice euphemism and easy for him to say when he won’t be there being slaughtered with his brethren. Jay is a perfect example of “the road to hell is paved with good intentions.”
It seems I have struck a lot of nerves with the zionists lately. :) I encourage you to watch my series on the subject in which I lay out the arguments in fuller depth and detail and respond to much of this confusion... i do not deny anti-semitism, i seek to contextualize events in the world... something which many zionists seem very reluctant to do these days (for obvious reasons).
@@JayShapiroDilemmaHost I’m sorry to be so blunt, but you seem to mistake disagreement for misunderstanding or denial. Seems to be projection. I understood your position as you described it here. If what you are saying by telling everyone to view your other content is that you didn’t explain your position well here, I suppose that’s possible. In that case, though, why would you insult the viewers by saying we are in denial? Also, you keep reposting this comment as a response to anyone who disagrees with you without actually engaging with the content of the comments. Do you read the comments before posting this? It makes it seem like you’re just trying to get more views for your other content. Insulting people is not the way to go about it because it just reinforces your insincerity.
The idea of a Jewish National Homeland was put formally in place in the early 1900s. It was agreed to by Emir-King Feisal ibn-Husseini as shown in the Feisal-Weizmann Agreement. It was signed by both of them on January 3rd, 1919. It included provisions for Jewish immigration, as it was understood that they needed a homeland. King Feisal was not a British puppet king. He was the most prominent and respected Arab leader at the time, by Arabs as well as other peoples. The Jews and the Arabs fought together for their independence in WWI against the harsh and oppressive Ottoman Empire. The understanding was that the Jews would get a territory sufficient for their religion and their people, and that the Arabs would get all the other Ottoman territories which are very extensive and about twenty times larger than what was to become the Jewish State. This has been fulfilled on the Arab side of the agreement. It has yet to be fulfilled for the Jews. It was originally intended that the Jewish people would receive all of what is now Israel and the area that is now Jordan as well. The Arabs didn't accept this. In 1922 Winston Churchill put in place the first Two-State-Solution which could be called Israel-Jordan. The Israelis were to receive Israel and the people who are now called Palestinians did receive Jordan. Jordan is two times larger than Israel. Today two-thirds of the population of Jordan are Palestinians. Again the Muslims would not accept this, and riots and fighting broke out. 1933 saw the rise of Nazism and Hitler. World War Two took over much of the world's energy and consciousness between 1939 and 1945. Palestinian Arabs collaborated with the Nazis during this time and helped to promote and instigate the Holocaust. Their leading Supreme Mufti, Amin al-Husseini, met with Hitler and his high-ranking officials several times and helped to recruit Muslims into the Nazi forces. WWII and the Holocaust ended in 1945. In 1948 the UN, now in control of the area, put in place the second Two-State-Solution, which gave the people who are now called Palestinians good portions of Israel, while they already had Jordan and while Jerusalem would become an international city. Israel agreed to this and declared themselves the independent State of Israel. Again the Arab Muslims wouldn't accept this solution and Israel was attacked by five surrounding Arab nations. This was the 1948 war. Israel won this war and gained a bit more territory. Since 1948 close to a million Jews have been programed out of Arab Muslim nations into Israel. Mostly from places and lands where they had lived for centuries and even millennia. Almost all of them having no place to go except Israel. Since then several Two-State-Solutions and other solutions have been put in place. Each time Israel agreed and the Arab Muslims did not and then started conflicts or war. It wasn't until the 1960s that the Palestinians as a separate group started calling themselves Palestinians, perhaps trying to claim the land for themselves in that way, or because people didn't know what else to call them or they didn't know what to call themselves. There is more information and details concerning these things. But this is part of the history of events mostly throughout the 1900s.
At least part of King Feisal's full name and title is: Emir Feisal I bin Al-Husseini bin Ali-Hashemi He signed his full name on the Feisal-Weizmann Agreement. People can find copies of the Agreement and their signatures online. The Agreement should be given true respect.
Love your program Yasmine. I can’t say that Jay Shapiro was as impressive on the level of Sam Harris or some of your other guests. Nothing personal, but there wasn’t much gravitas or historical knowledge there. Very confused intellectual.
I think your definition of the beginnings of Zionism with Herzl is a bit flawed. It wasn't driven by this idea of 'shopping' from the British colonial list of territories. Religion is not the basis - it was more the fact that for Herzl, all historical evidence showed that the last homeland of the Jews was in that region and there were plenty of Jews there who had never left.
It makes me wonder, do you define say the Uganda project (which I think even Herzl thought was absurd, but maybe temporary), as Zionism because I think Zionism is really focused on the ancestral homeland, rather than just a nation-state, wherever.
@@zjzr08 I wouldn't. When looking at the history of Zionism, not just as coined by Herzl but throughout Jewish history, then it was always about the ancestral homeland. As you say, the Uganda idea and similar ones were driven by desperation and seen as temporary. I'd say the majority of Zionists disagreed with that anyway.
Before I write this comment I just have to say that I am an Israeli who identifies as left-Zionist. Left of me are mostly Israel-Palestinian. I believe and advocate for a 2 state solution even now, and I am aware of the difficulties of the existing settlements. I strongly believe the occupation is corrupting us. I also believe it is time to make a deal to free the hostages and a ceasefire. So no on can say I am some sort of zealot. Having said all this I found listening to this podcast very difficult. The objective historical errors (Jerusalem only became part of Israel in 67 not “first thing”, Menachen Begin was very opposed by main stream Zionism and only became PM in 1977 after he got less radical..). I can forgive Jay’s very one sided narrative of Zionist history (the massacres on Jews, the call for extermination of Jews following the UN partition plan and the fact that the British were not on the side of Zionists for most of the time). I can also forgive his buying into conspiracy theories of Mossad bombing synagogs in Iran (tell me you don’t know how Jews value Jewish life without telling me you don’t know this 🙄). I can even forgive calling Israel “the Israel project” or a colonization project, even though if it was any other ethnicity you would call it indigenous liberation. What I can’t forgive is Jay using his “Jewishness” to push this narrative. Jay is clearly only Jewish by blood, he does not see himself as part of the “Jewish Family”. He is not some naive person that says a one state solution will work great for the Jews, he knows it’s a problem, and doesn’t have a problem with the Jews of Israel being dihimmis under a Palestinian rule (he himself said it wasn’t so bad). Worst of all Jay is willing to throw the Jews of Israel under the bus to appease Iran and to “fix” the Islamist problem. And all of this is advocated for “as a Jew”. Islam zealots were not created because of Israel, they were there way before someone thought about Zionism and wiping Israel if the map will not fix this problem. As Yasmin said, they want Spain, Sunni will fight Shia and so on. Also Israel is not the cause of antisemitism, it was there way before Zionism (in the Arab world as well) and it will remain even if Israel is abolished. Yasmin I love your podcast, I even sometimes think your stance is too much anti-Islam for my taste, but I think bringing in someone who clearly calls for something he knows will be bad for Jewish-Israeli women goes against what you are trying to fight for.
Good comment! Even though many of us don't agree with Jay, we should also keep in mind that there are some people like Jay who have their (misguided) opinions. It's OK to hear from them as well. On a minimum basis. 😝The convo happened in good faith and wasn't directly hateful to anyone. And sparked great conversation. So overall it was another good podcast from Yasmin.
@@tochiRTA I’m sorry but although the conversation seems very innocent, I don’t think it was done in good faith. This guy is basically blaming Israel for the pending WW3. He actually said that we need to understand why Germans did the Holocaust, nobody is born evil. He is basically calling for the world to abandon Israel, and for the push for one state while saying he knows it will be bad. There is no good faith here, and it is extremely antisemitic.
@@wade2boshI don’t know, Islamophobia (or whatever you want to call it) is very real in Israel. Before you say that we are just racist to Arabs, that is not true, Israelis are better with Arab-Christians
I’m Jewish born in iran, and we had to flee because literally the Jewish life doesn’t matter in Islam. And I think if you are a Jew who was born and raised in a free country, you don’t know what it’s like to be a Jew in the Middle East. And there’s so much history that Jay isn’t aware of I guess. Like the fact that Arabs told the Muslim Palestinians to leave and come back after the Jews are all ki113d by then after they attack. At the same time the 150,000 of them who decided to stay, are now the 2,000,000 Israeli citizens with equal rights.
I like you Jasmine but this person sounds ashamed of his heritage and that is really disturbing to many of us. I grew up less religious than him but won’t ever not support my people without question. If he’d grown up Israeli, he’d have a better of understanding and being in a position to comment. I am just listening to the beginning where he’s really annoying me so maybe the view is going to change. It’s for the Palestinian people, Jordan is Palestine and the Garza people mostly originated from Egypt and Egypt would not let them return. That said they could have a state of their own if they wanted to live in peace, but last year what they did is their doing, and Israel cannot sit back and wait for part two. Israel help those people taking them to hospital appointments and giving them jobs.
this guy base his oppinion on documentaries. what a profound knowledge and experience. it's easy to talk, when it's not your child burned alive inside an oven.
Big fan, Yasmine, and appreciate the idea of this episode - but good grief, this wasn't a conversation. Mr. Shapiro spoke, what, 80% of the time? Where were you? I mean, heck, Mr. Shapiro claimed it's easy and simple for a Muslim to leave the faith? Maybe in Brooklyn. But in the vast majority of the Muslim world??? Where were you? Just one example. So many. Disappointing - and a little disturbing, really. Can you not bear to contradict or refute a friend?
It's not only about Hijab, it's also about other rights In Pakistan women and girls are not allowed to have money or home , because only keeping girls illiterate and poor,men can control them and plus girls wear Burqa
It’s interesting how some people believe both that African countries are unstable/experience several episodes of genocide/become dictatorships because they often have conflicting ethnicities within a single state AND that a single state solution can be worked out for the Israel-Palestine conflict.
In rare cases it could be true like the the East African Union...although it is either make more countries or make it bigger but not in between and I agree Africans themselves have responsibility here (even many Africans themselves agree).
@girardip I gave an example with the proposed union of Rwanda, Burundi, Kenya, Uganda and Tanzania (although they're adding more countries in the union, which I feel isn't ideal as they're now too different from these 5 countries IMO) which all had Swahili as the lingua franca and were all former UK territories - maybe more African countries uniting may reunite split ethnicites as long as they have something to tie each other together. P.S. To be clear I do agree one-state is impossible as I assume Jews want their own nation-state where they're the majority and that should be IMO respected.
Jews didn’t go killing germans after what happened…they built a new future for themselves. Everyone excuses the violence from the Palestinian side as a normal reaction to everything. No it’s not. No one else in the world responds like that. Americans after 9/11 didn’t turn into radical terrorists.
He as so many misconceptions and he's leaving A LOT out. Like when he talked about a palestinian state without the jewish settlers he didn't mention the fact Israel literally took it's own citizens out of gaza during 2005 and they ended up with hamas and 20 years of rockets and terror. I'm not a huge settler or expansion supporter but I do shudder from the thought of what would happen if Israel will be completely off the west bank.
And Israel acquired judea/Samaria during a defensive war. It’s their land why can’t they live there. Why can Arabs live in Israel proper and Jews can’t live near Palestinians?
His argument is carving up the othoman empire?! Really for zionism being collonializm . The british had colonies yes. The othomans to. What does this have to do with the powerless jew
Jay, your framing of the history of the conflict is a very US-centric one that ignores so much. For one thing, Zionism was driven by antisemitism in Eastern Europe, which had caused thousands and thousands of refugees into Western Europe and the US in the first instance, which gave rise to antisemitism in places like Germany and Italy etc, so the 1930s and 40s were at the back end of a very left-wing, liberal movement that was born out of the liberalisation movements in Central and Eastern Europe. So, there had been immigration into today's Israel way before the 20th century - and that doesn't even touch on the Sephardic immigration since the 1500s. And two things: the British would not have viewed the Jews as white, the Jews were not labelled white until the last 20 - 30 years. Even in the 1980s, they were still firmly viewed as something else, so back in WWI, the British definitely didn't favour 'white' Jews. It also had very little to do with 'rich Jews' in the US, but with the fact that they wanted to beat the Ottoman Empire in the M.E. and to do that, they needed the support of the local population, and that was both the Jews and the Arabs. To get them both on their side, they offered them both something they wanted and sadly, promised them both the same piece of land. In the 1930s and 40s, the reason the Jewish terrorist organisations sprang up was primarily to fight the British, as they felt they had let them down, because the British had no intentions of honouring the Balfour Declaration. They did fight some of the Arabs, in part because many Arabs joined the Ottomans and the Nazis to fight against the British. That is not to say there wasn't plenty of nasty stuff coming from them, I'm not suggesting they were all innocent and honourable, but if you want to provide historical context, you have to provide all of it.
Yes, it’s unclear whether Jay leaves these details out purposely or if he really doesn’t know them. Either way, it’s ironic that says Sam’s knowledge of history is awful, when he leaves so much out himself.
Thankyou, yes! I would wish Jay would listen to some of the lectures Haviv Rettig Gur gives to young American Jewish college students about the Russian and other Easter European pogroms that drove the first waves of immigration. The way the USA, Britain, Canada, Australia and other countries shut down Jewish immigration from around 1902 or 1905 until even after WW2 has SO much to do with immigration from Europe to Palestine up until 1948. Learning that ~300,000 (from memory) captured Nazi soldiers and Nazi collaborators were plucked from the Displaced Persons camps, given shiny new passports, identities and citizenships BEFORE the thousands of Jews who were forced to stay in those camps for months, even 6 years on end in the Bergen-Belsen camp, because no country would have them, just broke my fkn heart. He describes the new Israelis as the Jews nobody wanted, and how a full 1/4 of the fledgling IDF were made up of those last displaced people who had had everything taken from them, literally coming from devastation and starvation with extra humiliation heaped on top. Who could endure what they endured? For them, protecting Israel was literally all they had. If they were brutish and uncompromising, there is plenty of blame to apportion to all parties who betrayed them, murdered their families, and left them with lifelong trauma to learn to live with.
I also think it's important to add how divided were the Jewish people regarding vengence acts against arab or terrorism against the British. It almost started a civil war. Hagana, that later became the IDF, handed in people from etzel and lehi to the British over disputes regarding the violent way they dealt with the restriction of Jewish immigration.
I did it, I listened, I gave Jay space to try make his point. I think first of all, using a westernised privileged Jew to speak on behalf of all Jews is completely not it, I totally value Yasmine bringing guests of all reaches on but I hate that this narcissistic man believes he is the voice of Jews. There may be an older view of Zionism, however majority Jewish secular communities only view it as a term that means we seek self determination in our homeland. We have just as much rights to the land as Palestinians, and we should share it, I agree with that sentiment, but he barely brought up any mentions of Oct 7th or the plight of the Jewish people too, rather he painted us as a privileged people where as in history we've been anything but privileged. He's entitled to an opinion, but absolutely doesn't represent the majority.
Very historically naive and it is sad to listen to... I am aghast actually, at such little awareness and pride. I'd expect this from Norm Finkelstein clones...
39:30 Yasmine, the religious right wing has NOT highjacked Israel. They're trying to, but they haven't. Israel has a strong judicial system, and most Israeli's do not want an orthodox state.
No land was “taken” until the war of 1948, not a single acre! Most land was purchased way before the British controlled the area, during the time of the Turks…
Many of the early founders of Palestine (the Holy Promised Land of the Jewish people now called Israel) were lawyers. So all land purchases were duly documented and legal. Like our patriarch Abraham in the Bible, who paid silver tender to purchase the plot in Hebron to bury his wife, Sarah and refused to receive it as a gift.
Jay seems overly optimistic and possibly naive. I say this not as a jew or a Muslim. But, the idea that two factions at conflict should just put their arms down and take a rest is naive, and not in reality. We can see this in the repeated violations of cease fire evacuations periods from both sides. While I admittedly do not follow his work, I will point out some things I think could have been done better: As far as I could tell, he never once mentioned the seven years war following the ratification of Israel. A commenter seemed to make an allusion to it, but Jay either missed the point during his monologue, or by accident, or maybe it was an intentional oversight. The war resulted in capitulation of lands. Whether this is fair or not is moot, because this is what happens during war. The population are not taken into consideration during those agreements from either side. It is unfortunate, but that is the truth. I also feel like his lack of acknowledgement of Islam is thoroughly obvious. He mentions Yasmin's mother's "confusion." I highly doubt she is confused. Yasmin made it clear the woman is antisemitic, but is smart enough to code switch in public. It is part of her religion, and part of the Quran as far as I am aware. There is merit to being empathetic to those who are caught in the middle. But I feel like saying one is empathetic to both Palestinians and to Jews, but then repeatedly calling Israel an "occupation" is telling. Is it an occupation, or do those people have the right to live their lives. There is a great book I suggest Jay read called "Jews do not count." It's probably more eloquent than I am here now. I understand where he comes from, ideologically, however I found him to be dismissive. In my own life, I look very stereotypically Jewish since I am mixed heritage. The amount of vitriol I have had thrown at me from even before this conflict is possibly a fraction of what actual Jews have felt. If that is the case, my heart weeps for them. I answer the question: how is a Jew ethnic vs another religion: If a Muslim woman removes her hijab, and denounces Islam she is no longer a Muslim. But to many bigots, being Jewish is the same as the mark of Cain, and like a blood curse. It's less how you view yourself and how others view you.
@@LonDanDoc because it can be argued that those are part of the 6 days war, and following agreements, resulting in Israeli troops withdrawing from the Sinai peninsula, Egypt reopening the suez canal, their acceptance for belligerence against Israel, and much later the resolution of Jordanian borders to their 1994 positions. I've also made a complete and total attempt to not use loaded terms for the conflicts. Nakba is a term pretty much exclusively by Palestinian scholars, just like the War for Independence is a term used by Israeli scholars, and wouldn't be used by third party historians. You could also claim that all of current day Palestine is historically Jordan, going back to 1917 agreements. It's even more complicated if you take in pre-British Ottoman colonialist, which wasn't exactly the rosy, multicultural history people like to pretend it was and was instead built on bloodshed and genocide like every other empire in history. While we're here, why not mention the Lebanese nationalist militias that existed in the same area at the same time slaughtering Palestinian Arabs? The issue is that people color history by who they side with. I never said Israel is completely innocent, and only a moron would say so. However treaties and legal agreement exist independent of guilt, people's feelings, etc. Palestinians are the first people to claim inheritance for refugee status. This further complicates things on a legal scale, and muddies what is already a complicated history. I could also point out that Israel had pro-Palestinian politicians in office, in office in high courts, and official Islamist parties within their government until October 7. Not because they silenced those people through force, but because they voluntarily revoked support of Palestine. I was merely pointing out rhetorical issues I saw with Jay's opinions. This is the cornerstone of liberalism and plurality. However I personally believe that blood fueds aren't the way to a equitable or even any future. I'm not a historian, and I don't pretend to be an expert in middle east affairs. It's just not exactly intellectually honest to say (I'm jokingly paraphrasing) "the West bad" or that there's any one purely victimized side, except for children. How does anyone plant to address the effects Hamas's rule has had against people? The children taught to hate Jews, the further displaced people, the people who starved while they swindled aid? Just as many new Arab nationalists were forged out for this conflict as new Zionist were formed. It's not a one way street to radicalization. A collective time out won't solve those problems. These are political actors, not toddlers having a tantrum.
@@Mae-u9hTalking about Islamists in the Knesset, I remember that he sided with Netenyahu just so they can break the tie in a recent election, just so they can finally have a formed government - pretty surreal.
Countries do it. Also, every country and/or continent that's been colonized and is now moderately peaceful has experienced this process (Australia, North America, South America, South Africa for example).
You are literally proving just how necessary Israel is as a Jewish State. You said that the Ashkenazi Jews weren't on board with the Zionism project until they had to flee Europe. They also had to flee Arab States. A one State solution basically puts Jews back to where they were before.
Zionism: "a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel" If you're against zionism, explain your opposition to it based the the actual definition. If you make it into something it's not, then it's much more straight forward to be against it.
i define it in my part 5 of my series using the behavior that it has exhibited relentlessly since it's first actions in the world... im not entirely sure how else to define it. I don't want to get into a semantic game but the point is that I would never want to be associated with anyone historically who proudly called themselves a "zionist" and i doubt many other liberals would either... so that is my usage of it here.
Jay needs a lesson in history and how culture matters. When he begins by saying religious Jews attached themselves to Zionism early on, he shows he has no clue. The more religious Jews resisted Zionism strongly. Kids get taught simplistic narratives everywhere at all times because they are kids. As we get older it becomes incumbent on ourselves to learn the deeper truths, and these truths are taught everywhere in Jewish spaces.
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American Orthodox Jew here, educated in an orthodox zionist school. I somewhat agree that the version of the history of Israel that you get in a jewish elementary school is a much rosier one than reality, but as we got older, we learned more and more. We were definitely taught about the irgun, stern gang, etc. We had to find out about the ugly stuff (like Deir Yassin) on our own. But we were still taught that overall, we were the good guys... a view I still more or less hold.
Exactly, it’s not normal to teach people at the details when they are still kids and teens. They should be kids and teens just living their lives, not forced into self hatred. Even when you learn all the details , anyone with rationality and basic critical thinking can work out who the good guy is. The details don’t change the overall story or intentions. The two sides are still completely different. Not two sides of the same coin at all. And for the Jews it’s always been survival. Not for the Arabs. They were displaced due to their own actions. But their violence was never for survival. It was a choice.
2:30:35 Jay, by saying "Israel is right next to the problem," just admitted that Israel is NOT the problem, which negates his entire previous argument. It seems to me that Jay is dealing with his own internal emotional jihad, and he should refrain from directing his own frustrations towards himself onto Israel and from judging the only free society in the Middle East.
28:00 The British didn't just "back off" Israel. Since India got its independence in 1947, the British had no need to maintain and protect the Suez Canal that used to be the route for goods from India. The idea that the British would feel "were done" of the situation in Israel because of a few groups of Zionists is ridiculous in view of their history of maintaining their Empire at all costs.
Zionism is as old as the Jewish People. We are Jewish because we have a uniquely Canaanite original Hebrew Language. Our Bible is still recited in the Hebrew/Aramaic language. Zionism is the expression of the Jewish People. You CANNOT BE A JEW AND NOT BE A ZIONIST! You are ignorant of the depth of your History. Stop apologizing!
1:26:00 Jay seems to be projecting his own personal biases on the peace process by saying that Israeli people weren't really interested in it. Israel signed peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan. There's a historical basis for Israel's intentions in this regard, which Jay disregards.
After 20 years of living in Israel and 10 years of Palestinian dialogue and reaching out for peace and respect between our two people I’ve realized that it comes down to one thing. The fact that Israel is in fact our homeland and that the Palestinian nation will not accept this and they do whatever they can to continue brainwashing themselves and being in denial of this fact. Until we move on from this huge detail we cannot put our guns down and close our check points, etc. Yes it is a cruel situation and people are suffering a lot. It is not a question of whether it is heart breaking and horrible but whose fault it is? I can say with absolute certainty that most Israelis want peace and are willing to make huge sacrifices of our home land for this but we we will not leave and we do not have a partner on the other side with the same goals and intentions. I would have agreed with a lot of things Jay said a couple of years ago honestly. We don’t have a perfect history but over time and especially since October 7th I’ve realized that we are in grave danger from the Islamist agenda and we need to govern ourselves as Jews. We come from a people with very high morals and peaceful intentions and I am proud of that but we need to know where to draw the line and when stand up for ourselves.
Good Lord! Where did she find this guy?? He’s delivering such a rambling monologue, she can barely get a word in edgewise. And having heard her talk about Israel, she’s MUCH more of a Zionist than he is. I’ve tried to keep listening to him, but his thought process is so disturbing, I’ve reached my limit.
He doesn't know anything about colonialism either. Colonialism serves the purpose of resource acquisition but of course Palestine was poor in natural resources. The only resources it had was the human capital of the Jewish population, who developed a much richer country than anyone else would have ever cared to.
1:27:50 There's that "but" again. Jay's lukewarm approach to the situation seems more like a copout than him not knowing the answer. He can't seem to admit that Israel is protecting inalienable rights of a free people in a "strip of land."
43:14 Jay would not be called a self-hating Jew just because he would criticize Israel. I believe that's his own personal victim mindset. In Israel and around the world many Jews criticize Israel in an ongoing public discourse. It's the sitting on the fence that renders Jay and people like him irrelevant in a solution-based dialogue.
40:18 Jay hasn't answered any of your questions. He admitted to not being a historian, and his assumptions seem to be a reflection of his own internal on-the-fence-ism.
Jasmine….I love your show but on this show Jay Shapiro leaves out so much history it’s unbelievable! Did he do it on deliberately or from lack of knowledge! I wonder…jasmine I suggest that you learn the Jewish history from other sources. Jay is not knowledgeable!
What dangerous views Jay has, did i hear he gives lectures? Who to islamic Terrorists? Bit of truth mixed with delusional lies. I think he means well, that is about it.
@JayShapiroDilemmaHost, Gaza and the West Bank were vastly more prosperous before 1987 and before 1993. The Gazan economy in particular and to a lesser degree the West Bank economy collapsed after 1993. Some statistics: Gaza's exports are 6.5% of GDP Gaza's imports are 54.0% of GDP Gaza's trade deficit is 54.0% - 6.5% or 48.5% of GDP (de facto foreign grants to Gaza per year) Gaza has a 45% unemployment rate Gaza's education system has collapsed since 193 Gaza and Hamas pay almost none of their bills and are almost completely funded by foreigners Hamas practices a very conservative form of shariah combined with socialism. Hamas sees much of science, technology, engineering and math as Haram or impermissible. How can your ideas about a one state solution be implemented as long as Hamas is in power? Hamas is literally one of the poorest and least economically developed places outside of Africa. Israel is a rich first world country. And Hamas wants a one state solution governed by very conservative shariah--which would make the one state solution you support dirt poor. What are your thoughts about Israel temporarily administering Gaza and making Gaza rich?
2:18:40 IMHO Jay's mother is actually talking analogically about her feelings towards her own son. And I wonder if Jay is sad about seeing the dead Israeli babies that were murdered and kidnapped on Oct. 7, too.
Thank you, Yasmine, for your podcast. About Jay Shapiro, Zion is in the Bible and Yeshua is coming back for them. In Psalm 9:11, it says, "Sing praises to the Lord, which dwelleth in Zion: declare among the people His doings." It is mentioned many times in the Bible. History matters and so I enjoy reading the struggles of the only nation that has suffered more than any other nation. God uses this name (Zion) as a daughter. I pray for Israel daily. They have to win this war. Thank you for speaking out.
2:26:29 Jay is actually talking about himself and his own need to radically redefine himself, not Israel. His assumptions as to what Israelis feel and should do about the situation is actually a reflection into his own soul. IMHO.
despite Jay's ability to be able to 'explain' and 'understand' the Palestinian side, at the end of the day, he fails to understand what is right or wrong morally. as an example, I can 'explain' and 'understand' why Nazism arose in Germany in the 1930's but it doesn't mean that it's not wrong morally. to tie it all together, arabs in Ottoman + British Palestine were violent towards jews from literally day 1 (all the way back to March 29, 1886 ) , Jews lived on legally purchased land through the 19's and early 20th century. so while jews immigrated to Palestine , it doesn't morally give the right to local arabs to attack. the jewish Irgun/Lehi organizations were late addition to the story, after years of arab violence towards jews. the jews have the moral high ground by far in everything that happens in the middle east, this is why non morally confuse nations stand with Israel
You have a very American, diasporic Jewish take on the situation. Not accurate but steeped in narrative. And you dont really grasp the middle Eastern mindset. You are lucky to have grown up in the West in these relatively easy times, and not had to genuinely fight for your own existence... it changes perspective. ❤ your podcast Yasmine
You bring up an interesting and important point. Most narratives coming from the U.S. are of course, "very American, diasporic Jewish takes on the situation". That's what's propping up Israel the country, the government/zionism financially. So, American Jewish views are incredibly important but limited. All of our views as humans are in some ways limited and lacking in perspective. Many groups today (including my own) and throughout history have had to fight for their own existence but have not received 1/10th of the financial support of Israel. This deserves critical reflection.
@@sdarling6518 That's because (I assume) you coming from the Black American community don't have literal countries trying to target and kill you; imagine like regimes that function like KKK and literally wanting to kill African countries.
@sdarling6518 You don't have countries that actually try to eliminate people of Africa or African decent though (probably the closest analogy I could give).
22:25 Another great big hole in Jay's story. Before the British Mandate, the area they called Mandatory Palestine was actually called "Surya al-Janubiyya (Southern Syria)," so there were no people called Palestinians that were under Ottoman control as Jay claims.
From a Mizrahi Jew here where my great grandparents lived in Jerusalem and southern Syria. I understand what he’s trying to do and it is appreciated, but he is leaving out so much part of the history it kind of breaks my heart.
I tried to cram a lot in! I agree it matters a lot. But please follow a bit of my recent collection to see how I try to frame it and understand it ❤
I agree a lot of history and nuances are left out and to beg people not to be zionists without ever giving his definition of Zionism makes me feel uneasy in this particular climate of post Oct 7.
@@trexusification I'll try to define it in my next essay. Keep an eye out. It's a good note.
So much stupidity it's mind boggling.
He is very ignorant. What He doesn't know is much greater than what he knows.
I just watched almost this entire production. From Jay Shapiro’s initial comments regarding Zionism and his definition of Zionism and then his extolling the people who have helped him form his opinions (Shlomo Sand; Gideon Levy, Miko Peled; all of whom I am very familiar with), I am appalled at his cherry-picking of history, his use of common far-left terminology (Zionist Project; colonial entity; looking at “Palestine” as if it was every an actual nation built on a national identity), his lack of understanding of what had happened with the governing Ottoman Empire that was already on the verge of collapse by WWI, and the role of the British during the mandate when they tried everything to suppress Jewish immigration in order to appease the Arabs because OIL, and even the reason that European and Mizrachi/Sephardic Jews weren’t necessarily Zionists prior to WWII to be ignorant of the reality of the time. What is it about some secular Jews that they have such disdain for more observant Jews? That attitude just reeked out of him. Sorry. Yasmine. I have been an admirer of yours. But you need to learn about Israel and Jews from better sources and not someone so clearly dogmatically on the far left.
Couldn’t agree more. I started watching being curious. But as soon as he started pouring dirt on the Jewish experience as being somehow illegitimate/faked, I was asking myself: what’s going on here?
The Jewish people in the late 19th, early 20th century toiling under the blazing sun to drain the swamp so to build the Tele Viv.
Building desalation plants to water the desolate land to produce the blooming farms.
2 examples that could never be mare myths.
I totally agree. I was disgusted at how he was lecturing women suffering in the middle east by demanding that they not support Israel and calling for the dismantling of Israel as a Jewish state as a way to pacify Islamic supremacists. The arrogance and hubris of this self-important American Jew is astounding.
@@patzan48Thanks. I used to have a great deal of respect for Yasmine, but one way I judge a public person is by the people they platform and promote. I took a look at Jay Shapiro’s own website and was utterly appalled at his demonization of Israel and the majority of Jews that support Israel. I watched this before the Oscars last Sunday when another Jew, Jonathan Glazer, made a shanda of himself in front of the entire world.
@@sandrakessler5499 Yes, he's ill-informed. Maybe Yasmine didn't know beforehand? He worked with Sam Harris so that's probably why he got the connection. Sam Harris seems like a nice guy, I could see him helping out someone as junior as this dude. But seriously - it's like, what if this was the only thing your racist uncle heard about Israel and Zionism?!! This guest is sending such a lopsided message, it's irresponsible. He needs to learn to drop the far left American bias before opening his mouth. It's so uncomfortable to listen to if you already have background knowledge.
Interesting.
I had different experiences growing up in Israel.
All I’ve heard is that we (also) wronged Palestinians and they deserve to be free in their own state and if only will offer them a state they’ll become peaceful partners and we’ll be able to benefit each others…
I’m 43 years old now with 3 kinds and I know we’ve bullshit ourselves for so long into not seeing that big parts of the Palestinian society doesn’t want peace or being free, they biggest priority is eradicating Israel (they were willing to refuse statehood for that).
I hope one day it’ll be different and hope that when that day will come it won’t be too late for them and for us.
The palestinians do want peace, as soon as the European occupiers leave Palestine.
I'm from New Zealand but lived in Israel working with both Palestinians and Israelis so I have an interest, and listen extensively to both Israeli and Palestinians (who are not hi-jacked by Islamism). I'm 26min into this and can already tell this is a man who has a very close minded, egotistical approach which is very damaging to both sides. He has formed his personal views on this conflict, is sticking to it, and wants to tell it, even though his lack of willingness or ability (probably both) to look at a deeper history means he sounds like he has an immature almost woke college type of approach. I'm not wasting my time, someone please give this man suggestions on how he can expand his worldview and critical thinking, especially on this subject.
Islamism and Zionism are not sides of the same coin - that is bonkers.
I'm such a fan, but never heard you intimate that before.
Some people manage to be both at the same time and will call anyone not as fanatic as them racists.
At all! I am so appalled the equivalence is even posited here. This is so wrong on so many levels. I feel like people have lost the plot altogether.
What i took from this is that Yasmeen is a better person than Jay. More practical and more intelligent.
As an 60+American Jew, I spent many years in Israel. I traveled and lived in other countries, explored Buddhism etc yet have come to realize that being born and raised in the west is a blessing. Not all cultures are beneficial for the best of human flourishing so I feel that Zionism doesn't even compare to the extreme death cult that is Islamism and a unfortunately large amount of the world's Muslims according to people such as Robert Spencer.
Buddha stepped out of his comfort zone to properly explain in simple terms the perfect Hindu religion (at the end of the Mahabharata the hero refuses heaven as learns that the stray dog following him is not allowed to enter !) (I do sigritism), unfortunately the Muslims don't understand budda . islam never change minds about the Jews, as their prophet was poisoned by a Jewish woman (she was right) the basis of their religion is first the extermination of the Jews and then the subjugation of the planet... what we call western civilization was born when the Stoic philosophers, understood the innovative explanation of the Jewish Jesus (through the Jewish Paul) finally found the vehicle that would change the world (the interpretations of the books of the Jews by the rabbis they knew and had rejected)..the Christian faith it is the different interpretation of the same books (which however deprives the sense of the superior race from the Jews) Jesus is not a Radical. ,..simply in all the faces of the writings he sees sinners who do not know how to love, he does not see role models ,Adam Eve Abraham Saul David when the test of fear comes,? they fail to defend the one who stands by them.....
Zionism is literally Nazism. Islam preaches peace and brotherhood.
The pure comparison is madness , Islamist nut cases started this comparison .
The fact that Zionism / Natzism is a curse or a a vile like terrorism and Natzism . Crazy !
The Muslims are smart for making this comparison happened .
Even comparing Zionism to the death cult of Islamism is a disservice.
Only the most extreme forms of Zionism, Kach for example (which most Israelis are completely opposed to) compare to the death cult of Islamism. And guess what happened to those forms of Zionism in Israel? Kach is banned😂
Zionism should not be associated with any death cult. Period. It is antisemitic to make such claims. I am an Israeli and a Ph.D. at Brown who studies Asian religious traditions and am a China scholar. I also got my BA and MA in China. I am a scholar of Buddhism. I am saying this to convey that I have a very rich international life experience.
Like Shapiro I had to do some unlearning and realize some things about Israel but all Zionism is fundamentally the return of Jews to their ancestral homeland. Was there violence involved? Yes! Was there land theft? Yes!. But it didn’t happen out of context and out of the blue. And no one decries the Jews being kicked out of Arab countries or the fact that mass displacement was also the case for Jews who were forcefully removed from the area over the centuries. That was also the case for my ancestors when they were kicked out of Spain in 1492, and for my grandparents when their properties were taken over by the Nazis and their neighbors. People get displaced. It is ugly and unfair but it is the reality. Still, I don’t see Jews performing death marches on Germany and Europe or dropping an atomic bomb to get even for centuries of oppression and killing. The Palestinians, as a collective (and I know this is not everyone), have made bad choices for themselves. They just did. They could have had their territory but that’s not what they want. They want Jews gone. And I am a left wing Jew. A staunch liberal by any standard. I am so openly critical of Israel but that doesn’t change the facts on the ground.
Israel has a record of giving up land, and all land it acquired for itself (settlements aside) was acquired through wars it did not initiate. These are hardcore facts. I don’t care about his story because the story of Israeli Jews and American Jews (and I straddle both identities now but was born and raised in Israel) over the 20th century is quite different.
Once Shapiro announced that his bold solution to the Iran problem is to appease Iran by getting rid of Israel, I discredited every other word that came out of his mouth. Not to mention his offhand suggestion that “everyone just chill out, Hamas return the hostages, and Israel ceasefire.” What planet is he living on?
What do u mean appease Iran by getting rid of Israel? Jay Shapiro didnt say that.
@@gulanhem9495 he said that dismantling Israel as a Jewish state would pacify Iran and the Middle East in general. As if Israel is the only cause for conflict in the Middle East and its dismantling would not further encourage Iran and other bad actors.
@@jeremykoloski democratic state for all would be nice but not a jewish state with apartheid.
@@pantethine66 Next time I go to an Arab doctor in Israel, I’ll make sure to let him know he’s living in an apartheid. Regardless, I’m fairly confident that only a Muslim theocracy in Israel would make Iran happy.
@@jeremykoloskithe the top three human rights organizations say otherwise but you can believe whatever you want to believe.HERZLIYA, Israel (AP) - A former head of Israel’s Mossad intelligence agency told The Associated Press on Wednesday that Israel is enforcing an apartheid system in the West Bank, joining a tiny but growing list of retired officials to endorse an idea that remains largely on the fringes of Israeli discourse and international diplomacy.
Tamir Pardo becomes the latest former senior official to have concluded that Israel’s treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank amounts to apartheid, a reference to the system of racial separation in South Africa that ended in 1994.
Leading rights groups in Israel and abroad and Palestinians have accused Israel and its 56-year occupation of the West Bank of morphing into an apartheid system that they say gives Palestinians second-class status and is designed to maintain Jewish hegemony from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea.
Einat Wilf’s understanding of Zionism is very interesting. She authored a book called “We should all be Zionists”. She also co-authored a great book about the Israeli Palestinian conflict. She also made numerous appearances in the media with her talks on this war and on Zionism. She is an atheist and comes from the left political background. Quite a remarkable woman and very compelling.
And she actually studied the history and the Arab perspective, whereas this person knows very little.
I'd recommend "The War of return" by Einat Wilf. The book explains a lot about the conflict.
Fascinating conversation. I taught at a Palestinian university in the West Bank for two years (early 1980s) before the first Intifada. Under Israeli military occupation. Settlements in their infancy. No wall yet. You could drive across the "green line" into Israel -- no checkpoints.
I agree with Yasmine -- the majority of Palestinians just wanted to live their lives. It wasn’t a great place to live, but things could have gone differently.
There was, however, an intolerant, fundamentalist minority of “Ikhwan” - Muslim Brotherhood - who pushed their way into our lives wherever they could. Nobody liked them. But they eventually gained power, finally morphing into Hamas.
Highly motivated (often religious) radicals steamroll “regular” people all the time. We don’t believe (or don’t want to see) that they are dangerous. So, no one stops them and we end up living in their deranged world.
Gee I wonder if israel's violently repressing that civil revolt called the first intifada until both sides started fighting, and Israel rejecting reasonable peace deals had anything to do with Hamas making headway? Afterall, nobody liked them, so how did they steamroll? The world can see that both sides have done what they have done, but only one side is told to get over it or called t*rrorist, when obviously both sides are guilty on both charges.
@@emilianosintarias7337 I'm talking about what I experienced before the first Intifada.
I could discuss how bad it was to live under Israeli military occupation. Instead, I'm adding this one thread about the Ikhwan to the larger conversation.
You may not believe me, but the majority of Palestinians where I lived (cities and villages) did not like the Ikhwan at that time.
Later, however, when the Israeli military closed schools, businesses, etc., the Ikhwan stepped in with social services. Of course they gained popularity. They got support by “helping” desperate people - at a price. Cynical.
They were not good people, and you’re lucky you never had to live with them.
Also, I’m not telling anyone to “get over it.” Nobody’s going to do that anytime soon.
You misunderstand. I am familiar with the time and place, palestinians didn't even like them much later, I never disagreed with you. I was pointing out what must have happened in the intervening years, as Israel wore palestinians down, for such a group to come to power. @@NotZelda1
@@NotZelda1Exactly the same thing the Ikhwan did across the Muslim majority world- the Egyptians called it the poison in the honey- they build schools etc to look like the saviors and endear ppl to them. By the time the ppl realize the honey was poisoned, the Islamists are too powerful.
@@emilianosintarias7337 ok, got it.
Honestly, I can appreciate the fact that he feels like he didn't get the whole story but the fact that he never bothered to fill in the gaps is just sad. It just sounds like he resents his parents and the way he was brought up.
His family is apparently non-religious yet he's seemingly brought up in an Orthodox Jewish school...I think that conflict where you're forced to be taught of this faith while you and your family is not faithful has to be very weird for him.
Jay is rambling. Couldn't answer a question directly and succinctly, which makes me think he's not telling the truth. He says he's not a self-hating Jew yet uses all the tired points of self-hating Jews / Hamas poets. 😮💨
I agree but I don’t think he’s doing this on purpose. I think he knows he’s coming out and stating a view point that’s different from many of his fellow Jews and peers and so is rambling because perhaps he feels worried about talking about about his view? Also unfortunately I think when a group of people, like the Jews, have been randomly blamed and hated on so much for seemingly no reason it’s natural for some to turn this inward, look at flawed past and then side with the accuser…if that makes sense? This can come out as a self hating Jew
@@trexusification 100% it makes sense. I'm a Black male. I totally get the self-hate thing. It's a sad survival mechanism when the world at larges hates you - you internalize the nonsense and you try to virtue signal to your haters "hey, I'm not like those other [Blacks, Jews]. I'm one of the good guys." Very few (brave) people say "no, I'm not gonna internalize the libel and you are wrong for doing that to me."
There’s a constant, sometimes unspoken and sometimes spoken, debate between Jews. Some say Jews should completely assimilate into surrounding society, cast off all cultural and religious “Jewishness” and become just like everyone else and that will make them not hate us. The other group asserts that Jews should instead keep to ourselves. Be insular, do our own thing, dress differently, have our own institutions, because when we try to join the surrounding societies that’s what makes them hate us. Obviously there’s every gradient of beliefs in between but there’s always those two camps debating. Even Karl Marx writes about this (guess which view he took lol). I think Jay leans into the first camp
@@trexusification I'm in the latter. Hate is insatiable. The job is to get rid of hate, not feed it in the hope it goes away. It never does.
I was just talking about this shame with a Jewish psychoanalyst friend.
I'm a non jew atheist. I wish that Jews would be more proud of their achievements and gifts to the world
As a Christian person of faith, who often gets labelled “religious”, it kind of annoyed me that Jay tried to throw shade at the idea of Zionism by arguing that, soon, after its birth, “religious fanatics” liked the idea. As if an idea becomes bad, as soon as religious people find value in it. As if as soon as religious people like an idea, that in itself is evidence for this idea then being bad.
Having said that, I am impressed to see two people with different views on this topic actually having a civil discourse, without any personal attacks, and most importantly, focussing on a solution and expressing a desire for peace.
@@shnitz_world7779I'm not exactly sure if saying Israelis (not just Jews) would be fine in one-state is a desire for peace...
Because of a Jew woman,i found you, Yasmine❤
Jews are very kind and nice people who are being punished badly for asking their right to have their Homeland
India and Israel suffer same
Muslims claim Israel land as their own
Muslims claim India as their land, when they couldn't get hold of all India,they demanded Pakistan existence
I love you sm right now
This sounds like someone who doesn't understand that Palestinian Muslims, Christians or atheists are fighting against the colonization of Palestine.
This isn't a Jewish vs Muslim issue... Far from it
10 minutes into Jay talking - sounds like he didn’t study well in his Hebrew school and somehow that’s Israel’s or “Zionist’s” fault. Every Jew knows what Nakba is 🤦🏻♀️Honestly I don’t like talks about privilege, but I don’t know how else to explain this.
Anti Zionist vs Anti Islamist seems more appropriate as a title
I think the title was intimating at their upbringing rather than their political stance now.
@@lissyadams6497Exactly. This man doesn't have a Zionist bone in his body, and is clueless to the nature of the modern Islamist and the danger they pose to "his people".
Some really warped perspectives from Jay, One being the idea that Jews are somehow more white than Palestinians when then actually genetically identical people. This is a religious dispute mores than a territorial one. Jews historically have a unique record of persecution and animosity as a race aswell as a religion. Why I'm a zionist although I'm not Jew is that Judaism isnt a proselytising religion and Islam is. If Israel wasn't surrounded by Islamist baying for their extermination I could understand Jay's perspective a bit more. If you say your not a zionist you are saying the state of Israel should be devolved. Expansion and the settlements are a different issue.
Didn't the Houthis have something to do with the Yemen conflict not just Saudi.
Completely agree
Also a non Jewish ally/ Zionist and completely agree. He’s not done enough research, about Middle Eastern Jews (they’re brown and there is no colony because they’re all refugees) living under Islam and over simplified massively, sadly. He exemplifies a middle class Jew who has no need for the state of Israel but benefits from democratic values that he has been immersed in, and like a spoilt child is blaming his parental culture.
“The holocaust is awful, and whatever” . The holocaust murdered nearly a half of all Jews on the planet, Jews are only just back to their pre holocaust numbers.
Please see my recent collection for more conversation on the history of Zionism which really might cause you to adjust. But I am certainly open to learning as well. Zionism as you heard is a very slippery idea… but its history is fairly unambiguously ugly.
@@JayShapiroDilemmaHost I have no idea why you expect historical conflict to be attractive, Intractable problems always have relatively matched intractabiltes, or they would get solved. It's not about who has the moral high ground, it's about how a posive way forward can be found from the mess, What about the lasting peace with Egypt in 79 when Sinai was returned, and the efforts made by Ehud Olmert and Abbas, which almost achieved a breakthrough, look what Clinton said about who was responsible for the breakdown of Oslo 2 negotiations, he was in the room, Norman Finklestein wasn't. Israels sworn enemies ie Iran have a never ending supply of Smoterich and Bengvir equivalents that perpetuate each other, but it's not as if there are no good faith actors and no hope despite the bleak picture at the moment, undoubtedly religion on both sides is a major part of the problem for a 1 state solution. Live in hope, after all Japan is one of the US's best allies now despite us nuking them twice. If you pick a side in this conflict your on the wrong one.
the dispute did not start as a religious dispute, on the contrary; the two religions coexisted peacefully before the nationalist political aspirations appeared;
zionism and judaism are at odds with each other; zionism was started as an attack to judaism, a secular movement meant to transform jews from the religious Torah studying type to a "modern", secular, nationalist, proud warrior type of people; it's an identity theft;
you are not zionist because you prefer judaism to Islam, unless you are uninformed;
Israel is surrounded by Islamist enemies because the zionists chose to built the state there, despite the jewish population in the area being just 10% of the total at the turn of the 20th century, and most of them non-zionists (they didn't support the establisment of a jewish state)
As a proud Zionist Jew, I find it fascinating to discuss and listen to different perspectives on the complexities of Jewish identity, Israel and its history, and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. I’ve come to the conclusion that, like so much in life, there will always be more questions than answers- and that’s part of what makes being engaged in all these things so interesting.
That being said, this guy’s rambling anti-Israel monologue was so exhausting to listen to, that I started thinking how nice it might be to wake up tomorrow morning as a white, Anglo-Saxon Protestant, not thinking about these things nor feeling like have to explain myself to anyone - instead of endlessly obsessing about Judaism, Israel and anti-Semitism. Just for one day.
It would also be nice to wake up one day to find everyone arguing and demonstrating about whether or not Iceland has the right to exist. Or France or Germany or Russia or the USA. Or Iran. No one ever questions whether ANY country on this earth has the right to EXIST- except for Israel.
As an 🇮🇱 Israeli, it's incredibly simple:
Zionism is the desire of Jews in the diaspora to live in Israel, and especially in Jerusalem. How simple can it be? This guy has no clue.
הוא מעצבן אותי בקטע לא סביר
but it should not be at the expense of the local population.
He has no idea. He is the typical American Jew with no skin in the game, no need to delay college for 3 years to serve in the army and maybe come home with PTSD after. There are so many people who are way more well-read than this dude, or at least have significant life experience to draw upon. He takes Ilan Pappé seriously, yikes! Wish that Yasmine could have gotten a more knowledgeable guest for this one, her ex-Muslim and Palestinian guests have been wonderful.
why not? @@pantethine66
@@pantethine66 50% of Jews living in Israel are of Middle Eastern origin exiled penniless from Arab countries after the creation of Israel. Their properties were confiscated. Jews have lived in the Middle East before the birth of Prophet Muhammad. Jews are not the problem. The real problem is Islam. Muslims are indoctrinated to hate Jews from childhood. if Arabs were smart, they’d would have accepted Jews as equal citizens, given equal political rights and complete religious freedom. Jews would’ve made Middle East rich. Jews are great entrepreneurs, create wealth which benefits the larger societies. Jews make the best scientists in the world. They have invented thousands of medicines used by everyone, including Jew hating Muslims. The world should be grateful to Jews.
Ughh, this tiresome. Patronizing and condescending from Jay Shapiro. The woman Cindy Yob made a good comment and the was told to read books. Frankly rude. This is nonsense.
I can’t stand this douche! He makes No sense!!!
Her family lived it- I think she knows a littttttle more than him. Nothing more aggravating than when people don’t listen to the people who actually LIVED IT. Lived in those times. They are the only ones who know the reality on the ground, which is way more than anyone could ever learn by reading about anything. When people try to explain things to people who actually lived it it shows you how delusional they are. It shows how people just make up stories about history, once it’s history you can make up whatever you want .
He doesn’t have the intellect to understand how different things are in reality when living through them than what you read about a hundred years later.
I feel like this guest has a mistaken and unnecessarily complicated perception of Zionism as something suspicious, controversial and damaging to Jewish people in general. Zionism is not tricky. It’s super simple. It’s a desire of the Jewish people to have their sovereign state. It’s time that we restore the term’s real meaning and normalise it as positive and perfectly acceptable.
It’s like the “academics” who go back in history and try to concoct ideas and re-write history. Someone nefarious made up that Zionism was this underground entity with dark intentions. It’s all just a concocted conspiracy theory about Jews and it’s unbelievable these Jews can’t see through that.
His point of view, while he’s welcome to it, does not represent most Jews. Yes, most Jews are pro-Israel just as many Irish-Americans are pro-Irish and many African Americans have strong feelings about the plight of African peoples. Most Jews are compassionate and care not only about Israel but about other peoples and people in general.
Irish citizens are typically anti-colonization/pro-Irish democracy. Black Americans are also usually anti-colonization/pro-democracy. These are the opposite of being pro-Israel, which is why many members of these groups (Black Americans and Irish citizens) are not fans of the Israeli government.
It seems that to Jay, history started in 1897 AD. Jay talks about the pre-WWI era, but seems to "forget" that the Ottoman Empire was a colonial military expansionist project (that also moved people around and carved out masses of lands and handed them out to appointed leaders) and that the area that is now Israel was called "Surya al-Janubiyya (Southern Syria)," which means that there were no people called Palestinians at that time, and that the El Aqsa mosque was built intentionally on top of the Jewish Temple. Jay is trying to circumvent the argument by going back only 120 or so years back and stops there, while the history of the region goes back thousands of years with different cultures, pre-dating Islam and Christianity, with Jews having a continuous presence.
Does it matter that Palestinians weren't referred to as Palestinians at that time? Also, that area of the world has a long history of various peoples living there together, just like many other places. That is obvious and doesn't contribute to the main points of this episode.
Jasmine needs to invite Ben Shapiro or Douglas Murray somebody who really is on the Jewish side because this guy is not
I think the point of Yasmine interviewing this guy is to listen to both sides… principally a good idea. And this is one of the rare discussions where two opposing views of this particular topic can put their views and experiences forward in a calm and reasonably thoughtful way.
Joseph, with the exception of some population clusters, the was mostly empty…there are ample descriptions of the land by multiple explorers (none Jewish explorers) going all the way back into the early 1800s and up to the British conquest that describe how sparsely populated of what the land of what nowadays is called Israel.
I am not shocked that Yasmine invited a self-hating Jewish guy, why not have different points of views. I am more disappointed by the fact that she did not react at certain moments to his anti-Israel biased discourse. He even went as far as talking about appeasing Iran and she did not react. I find THAT shocking.
I deeply appreciated the moral clarity and support of the previous podcast with Sam Harris. It was excellent, and I shared it with many people. I couldn't bear to listen to more than 5 minutes as Jay's story is so limited, and in my opinion, poses a threat to the Jewish people, especially after October 7th. He leaves out SO much of history and perpetuates the "woke" narrative. It left me feeling unseen during this painful time.
When white people use the word, "woke"...
The real problem is the religious hatred. I don’t know any Muslim who doesn’t hate Jews. Being from the Indian sub-Continent, I ‘look’ like them. Therefore, Muslims don’t hesitate to express their intense hatred of Jews to me. But I know many Jews, who are sympathetic to Palestinians and condemn Israel. Wherever Muslims are in majority, life of non-Muslims is made hell in Muslim countries in to order force non-Muslims to leave or convert to Islam. This is exactly what happened in the Middle East - Christian population declined to insignificant number since 1960’s. Hindus were 22% in West Pakistan (now Pakistan) in 1947, 15% in 1970, to 1.5% in 2024. In the East Pakistan (now Bangladesh), Hindus were 40% in 1947 down to 8% in 2024. Life of Hindus is hell in both countries. If there were freedoms of religion in the Arab countries and Jews had equal rights, Israel would not be existing. After the creation of Israel in 1948, the entire population of Jews was exiled penniless, their properties confiscated - not a single Jews lives in any Muslim majority country. On the contrary, Arabs constitute 20% of Israeli citizens - with freedom of religion and equal political rights - at least under the law.
They hate Christians and Jewish in particular and hate people of other faiths. It is written clearly in islamic teachings of the quran, hadith, and sunna clearly.
Don't make friends with Jewish and Christians. If you do, you are like them dirty, unbelievers, and infidel.
What's written about other faiths and what they should do about them is out of this world.
Not the Muslims, but the teaching of islam is the cause of all the problems we are witnessing in this era.
This has always been a one-sided conflict with a clear aggressor imo. If I know your religion obliges you to hate and murder another group of people, and that you're encouraged to lie to non-believers about anything, it's pretty easy to conclude who the aggressor will be in any conflict.
If a Muslim hates, he is not a Muslim.
Evidently don't know many Muslims them.
@@LonDanDocAre you a Muslim?
I don’t get how he goes from “we have to be truthful and say Israel has a shady foundation” to saying therefore I am not a Zionist. The west has a super shady history but I still love the west and support it. I also don’t believe he ever gave his definition of Zionism. He said what he doesn’t define it as but didn’t say what he does define it as and what he is renouncing and telling others to renounce.
It is a tough one. The history of Zionism is… tough. I may try to address this in my next essay. Keep an eye out. ❤
I think he’s in Bernie’s team. He’s just not qualified to speak on behalf of Jewish people.
The level of naivety of this guy is amazing. He doesn't want to understand extreme Islam (selective blindness) and the consequences of all in one State with a lot of extremist Muslims .
Jay Shapiro needs a more in depth history lesson. He is wrong on so many points that I can’t even listen to this video.
Yeah, I had to call it quits as well.
Unfortunately, I’m calling it, too.
I can't watch this guy who doesn't even have his facts straight! Yasmine doesn't seem too thrilled with what he's saying either.
I have heard people mock the "land without a people for a people without a land" statement, with photos of Arabs in Jaffa etc, BUT THE FACTS ARE
Malaria and mosquitoes was a huge problem.
Pub-med came up on a Google search for Israel and malaria with a lot of details about the eradication of mosquito breeding grounds.
Arabs of Palestine WERE NOT SO STUPID that they lived in swamps, but the swamps were near farms. That and deserts meant a sparse population per acre (or per square mile or km).
This also means a MODERN MIRACLE occurred: Jewish refugees and migrants "created land", as well as PURCHASED LAND, so they didn't steal Land from the Arabs. Of course, creating land means making uninhabitable land inhabitable.
Jews helped Arabs eradicate mosquitoes on their property too. I learned part of what they did was import eucalyptus from australia, which would not have been possible a century before.
*The Nakba or Disaster is defined as beginning with Zionists BUYING LAND from Arabs* .
Tel Aviv didn't exist but began to have neighborhoods in 1909 and was originally settled by Yemeni Jews.
Since the Left is obsessed with skin color and race like Nazis, they don't define Arabic looking Jews as White colonial settlers or Zionists. You only count as a Zionist to some on the Left if you look like a White European .. yet other Leftists tell Iraqi and Yemeni Jews to go back to Poland. It's that idiotic!! Facts don't matter, identity matters, and they will tell you what your identity is, if you're not a self-defined person of color.
Could you explain what exactly is he wrong about?
2000 my family said everyday: next year in Jerusalem. Read and speak Hebrew and keep Tora bible.
Thank you Yasmine for your excellent podcast. Your courage has inspired me from the first time I heard you speak.
Re this episode: I hear and understand everything that Jay is saying about what he learned growing up as compared to the actual messy history. And it may have been his experience that he only heard one side growing up. But most Jews I know grew up understanding that the history was messy.
What shocks me is that Jay seems to think that since it was messy, that means the Jews were all wrong (along with Britain), and he glosses over why the clashes happened, as if the Jews just went and started fights and tried to conquer, and that simply is false. He can’t even acknowledge Yasmine’s assertion that her mother (as with many Muslims) hates all Jews without distinguishing Zionists, and that there are actual Arabic sayings about Jews dying - not Zionists. He glosses over it and continuously goes back to asserting that the hate is only against Zionists, and eventually even says that she was just confused because of the Jews’ use of the word Zionism! It’s so condescending and self-important to say that Muslims are just confused, and that he knows what they really mean.
Also, we Jews tend to hold ourselves to a higher standard than everyone else, as Jay does here. Even in Jay’s version of history, there was plenty of wrong to go around, and he left out plenty on the Arab side. Yet Jay is willing to throw the Jews under the bus. He says that if he gets what he ultimately wants, “it will be rough” for Israel - nice euphemism and easy for him to say when he won’t be there being slaughtered with his brethren. Jay is a perfect example of “the road to hell is paved with good intentions.”
I agree whole heartly. This guy just gets on my last nerve.
It seems I have struck a lot of nerves with the zionists lately. :) I encourage you to watch my series on the subject in which I lay out the arguments in fuller depth and detail and respond to much of this confusion... i do not deny anti-semitism, i seek to contextualize events in the world... something which many zionists seem very reluctant to do these days (for obvious reasons).
@@JayShapiroDilemmaHost I’m sorry to be so blunt, but you seem to mistake disagreement for misunderstanding or denial. Seems to be projection.
I understood your position as you described it here. If what you are saying by telling everyone to view your other content is that you didn’t explain your position well here, I suppose that’s possible. In that case, though, why would you insult the viewers by saying we are in denial?
Also, you keep reposting this comment as a response to anyone who disagrees with you without actually engaging with the content of the comments. Do you read the comments before posting this? It makes it seem like you’re just trying to get more views for your other content. Insulting people is not the way to go about it because it just reinforces your insincerity.
The idea of a Jewish National Homeland was put formally in place in the early 1900s. It was agreed to by Emir-King Feisal ibn-Husseini as shown in the Feisal-Weizmann Agreement. It was signed by both of them on January 3rd, 1919. It included provisions for Jewish immigration, as it was understood that they needed a homeland.
King Feisal was not a British puppet king. He was the most prominent and respected Arab leader at the time, by Arabs as well as other peoples.
The Jews and the Arabs fought together for their independence in WWI against the harsh and oppressive Ottoman Empire. The understanding was that the Jews would get a territory sufficient for their religion and their people, and that the Arabs would get all the other Ottoman territories which are very extensive and about twenty times larger than what was to become the Jewish State.
This has been fulfilled on the Arab side of the agreement. It has yet to be fulfilled for the Jews.
It was originally intended that the Jewish people would receive all of what is now Israel and the area that is now Jordan as well. The Arabs didn't accept this. In 1922 Winston Churchill put in place the first Two-State-Solution which could be called Israel-Jordan. The Israelis were to receive Israel and the people who are now called Palestinians did receive Jordan. Jordan is two times larger than Israel. Today two-thirds of the population of Jordan are Palestinians.
Again the Muslims would not accept this, and riots and fighting broke out.
1933 saw the rise of Nazism and Hitler. World War Two took over much of the world's energy and consciousness between 1939 and 1945. Palestinian Arabs collaborated with the Nazis during this time and helped to promote and instigate the Holocaust. Their leading Supreme Mufti, Amin al-Husseini, met with Hitler and his high-ranking officials several times and helped to recruit Muslims into the Nazi forces.
WWII and the Holocaust ended in 1945.
In 1948 the UN, now in control of the area, put in place the second Two-State-Solution, which gave the people who are now called Palestinians good portions of Israel, while they already had Jordan and while Jerusalem would become an international city. Israel agreed to this and declared themselves the independent State of Israel.
Again the Arab Muslims wouldn't accept this solution and Israel was attacked by five surrounding Arab nations. This was the 1948 war. Israel won this war and gained a bit more territory.
Since 1948 close to a million Jews have been programed out of Arab Muslim nations into Israel. Mostly from places and lands where they had lived for centuries and even millennia. Almost all of them having no place to go except Israel.
Since then several Two-State-Solutions and other solutions have been put in place. Each time Israel agreed and the Arab Muslims did not and then started conflicts or war.
It wasn't until the 1960s that the Palestinians as a separate group started calling themselves Palestinians, perhaps trying to claim the land for themselves in that way, or because people didn't know what else to call them or they didn't know what to call themselves.
There is more information and details concerning these things. But this is part of the history of events mostly throughout the 1900s.
At least part of King Feisal's full name and title is:
Emir Feisal I bin Al-Husseini bin Ali-Hashemi
He signed his full name on the Feisal-Weizmann Agreement.
People can find copies of the Agreement and their signatures online.
The Agreement should be given true respect.
👏thank you
thanks!
lol he just wanted to be free of ottoman
It’s deception
@@wade2boshexactly
He used the jews
Love your program Yasmine. I can’t say that Jay Shapiro was as impressive on the level of Sam Harris or some of your other guests. Nothing personal, but there wasn’t much gravitas or historical knowledge there. Very confused intellectual.
I think your definition of the beginnings of Zionism with Herzl is a bit flawed. It wasn't driven by this idea of 'shopping' from the British colonial list of territories. Religion is not the basis - it was more the fact that for Herzl, all historical evidence showed that the last homeland of the Jews was in that region and there were plenty of Jews there who had never left.
It makes me wonder, do you define say the Uganda project (which I think even Herzl thought was absurd, but maybe temporary), as Zionism because I think Zionism is really focused on the ancestral homeland, rather than just a nation-state, wherever.
@@zjzr08 I wouldn't. When looking at the history of Zionism, not just as coined by Herzl but throughout Jewish history, then it was always about the ancestral homeland. As you say, the Uganda idea and similar ones were driven by desperation and seen as temporary. I'd say the majority of Zionists disagreed with that anyway.
Before I write this comment I just have to say that I am an Israeli who identifies as left-Zionist. Left of me are mostly Israel-Palestinian. I believe and advocate for a 2 state solution even now, and I am aware of the difficulties of the existing settlements. I strongly believe the occupation is corrupting us. I also believe it is time to make a deal to free the hostages and a ceasefire. So no on can say I am some sort of zealot.
Having said all this I found listening to this podcast very difficult. The objective historical errors (Jerusalem only became part of Israel in 67 not “first thing”, Menachen Begin was very opposed by main stream Zionism and only became PM in 1977 after he got less radical..). I can forgive Jay’s very one sided narrative of Zionist history (the massacres on Jews, the call for extermination of Jews following the UN partition plan and the fact that the British were not on the side of Zionists for most of the time). I can also forgive his buying into conspiracy theories of Mossad bombing synagogs in Iran (tell me you don’t know how Jews value Jewish life without telling me you don’t know this 🙄). I can even forgive calling Israel “the Israel project” or a colonization project, even though if it was any other ethnicity you would call it indigenous liberation.
What I can’t forgive is Jay using his “Jewishness” to push this narrative. Jay is clearly only Jewish by blood, he does not see himself as part of the “Jewish Family”. He is not some naive person that says a one state solution will work great for the Jews, he knows it’s a problem, and doesn’t have a problem with the Jews of Israel being dihimmis under a Palestinian rule (he himself said it wasn’t so bad). Worst of all Jay is willing to throw the Jews of Israel under the bus to appease Iran and to “fix” the Islamist problem. And all of this is advocated for “as a Jew”.
Islam zealots were not created because of Israel, they were there way before someone thought about Zionism and wiping Israel if the map will not fix this problem. As Yasmin said, they want Spain, Sunni will fight Shia and so on. Also Israel is not the cause of antisemitism, it was there way before Zionism (in the Arab world as well) and it will remain even if Israel is abolished.
Yasmin I love your podcast, I even sometimes think your stance is too much anti-Islam for my taste, but I think bringing in someone who clearly calls for something he knows will be bad for Jewish-Israeli women goes against what you are trying to fight for.
Good comment! Even though many of us don't agree with Jay, we should also keep in mind that there are some people like Jay who have their (misguided) opinions. It's OK to hear from them as well. On a minimum basis. 😝The convo happened in good faith and wasn't directly hateful to anyone. And sparked great conversation. So overall it was another good podcast from Yasmin.
I totally agree.
Shame of being a Jew is being demonstrated here. Take it to a therapist Jay.
U can never be too anti Islam
The doctrine hates Jews and women
@@tochiRTA I’m sorry but although the conversation seems very innocent, I don’t think it was done in good faith. This guy is basically blaming Israel for the pending WW3. He actually said that we need to understand why Germans did the Holocaust, nobody is born evil. He is basically calling for the world to abandon Israel, and for the push for one state while saying he knows it will be bad. There is no good faith here, and it is extremely antisemitic.
@@wade2boshI don’t know, Islamophobia (or whatever you want to call it) is very real in Israel. Before you say that we are just racist to Arabs, that is not true, Israelis are better with Arab-Christians
Read Mark Twin book. He described the land empty
I’m Jewish born in iran, and we had to flee because literally the Jewish life doesn’t matter in Islam. And I think if you are a Jew who was born and raised in a free country, you don’t know what it’s like to be a Jew in the Middle East. And there’s so much history that Jay isn’t aware of I guess. Like the fact that Arabs told the Muslim Palestinians to leave and come back after the Jews are all ki113d by then after they attack. At the same time the 150,000 of them who decided to stay, are now the 2,000,000 Israeli citizens with equal rights.
Yep, life sucks for anybody in a country run by a religion that they aren't part of.
I like you Jasmine but this person sounds ashamed of his heritage and that is really disturbing to many of us. I grew up less religious than him but won’t ever not support my people without question. If he’d grown up Israeli, he’d have a better of understanding and being in a position to comment. I am just listening to the beginning where he’s really annoying me so maybe the view is going to change. It’s for the Palestinian people, Jordan is Palestine and the Garza people mostly originated from Egypt and Egypt would not let them return. That said they could have a state of their own if they wanted to live in peace, but last year what they did is their doing, and Israel cannot sit back and wait for part two. Israel help those people taking them to hospital appointments and giving them jobs.
this guy base his oppinion on documentaries. what a profound knowledge and experience. it's easy to talk, when it's not your child burned alive inside an oven.
Big fan, Yasmine, and appreciate the idea of this episode - but good grief, this wasn't a conversation. Mr. Shapiro spoke, what, 80% of the time? Where were you?
I mean, heck, Mr. Shapiro claimed it's easy and simple for a Muslim to leave the faith? Maybe in Brooklyn. But in the vast majority of the Muslim world??? Where were you?
Just one example. So many.
Disappointing - and a little disturbing, really. Can you not bear to contradict or refute a friend?
He did tie himself in knots with his own inconsistencies. Letting him talk was the best thing to do.
This guy is living outside of reality.
I love Yasmin and the work that she is doing to free Muslim women from this ridiculous idea of hijab 🧕
It's not only about Hijab, it's also about other rights
In Pakistan women and girls are not allowed to have money or home , because only keeping girls illiterate and poor,men can control them and plus girls wear Burqa
He is not a Zionist. He needs to grow up.
Well yeah, he's not and she's not an Islamist.
It’s interesting how some people believe both that African countries are unstable/experience several episodes of genocide/become dictatorships because they often have conflicting ethnicities within a single state AND that a single state solution can be worked out for the Israel-Palestine conflict.
In rare cases it could be true like the the East African Union...although it is either make more countries or make it bigger but not in between and I agree Africans themselves have responsibility here (even many Africans themselves agree).
@@zjzr08 what do you mean by "make it bigger"?
@girardip I gave an example with the proposed union of Rwanda, Burundi, Kenya, Uganda and Tanzania (although they're adding more countries in the union, which I feel isn't ideal as they're now too different from these 5 countries IMO) which all had Swahili as the lingua franca and were all former UK territories - maybe more African countries uniting may reunite split ethnicites as long as they have something to tie each other together.
P.S. To be clear I do agree one-state is impossible as I assume Jews want their own nation-state where they're the majority and that should be IMO respected.
@@zjzr08 thanks for sharing, very interesting
Europe used to be the same way and now much of Europe is in the E.U. We know this can be done because countries all over the world manage it everyday.
Monsters don't exist? There are "reasons" for them? I'd like to see this guy share an apartment with Jeffrey Dahmer or Charles Manson.
2:22:00 I had to wait all this time just to hear Sara entirely dismantle Jay's house of cards. Worth the wait.
In general, people don't want revenge against each other after wars and conflicts. Generally, people move on.
Except Palestinians
Jews didn’t go killing germans after what happened…they built a new future for themselves. Everyone excuses the violence from the Palestinian side as a normal reaction to everything. No it’s not. No one else in the world responds like that. Americans after 9/11 didn’t turn into radical terrorists.
Looks like he’s very confused and biased. Yasmine is truthful and pragmatic!
He as so many misconceptions and he's leaving A LOT out. Like when he talked about a palestinian state without the jewish settlers he didn't mention the fact Israel literally took it's own citizens out of gaza during 2005 and they ended up with hamas and 20 years of rockets and terror. I'm not a huge settler or expansion supporter but I do shudder from the thought of what would happen if Israel will be completely off the west bank.
And Israel acquired judea/Samaria during a defensive war. It’s their land why can’t they live there. Why can Arabs live in Israel proper and Jews can’t live near Palestinians?
His argument is carving up the othoman empire?! Really for zionism being collonializm . The british had colonies yes. The othomans to. What does this have to do with the powerless jew
Jay, your framing of the history of the conflict is a very US-centric one that ignores so much. For one thing, Zionism was driven by antisemitism in Eastern Europe, which had caused thousands and thousands of refugees into Western Europe and the US in the first instance, which gave rise to antisemitism in places like Germany and Italy etc, so the 1930s and 40s were at the back end of a very left-wing, liberal movement that was born out of the liberalisation movements in Central and Eastern Europe. So, there had been immigration into today's Israel way before the 20th century - and that doesn't even touch on the Sephardic immigration since the 1500s. And two things: the British would not have viewed the Jews as white, the Jews were not labelled white until the last 20 - 30 years. Even in the 1980s, they were still firmly viewed as something else, so back in WWI, the British definitely didn't favour 'white' Jews. It also had very little to do with 'rich Jews' in the US, but with the fact that they wanted to beat the Ottoman Empire in the M.E. and to do that, they needed the support of the local population, and that was both the Jews and the Arabs. To get them both on their side, they offered them both something they wanted and sadly, promised them both the same piece of land. In the 1930s and 40s, the reason the Jewish terrorist organisations sprang up was primarily to fight the British, as they felt they had let them down, because the British had no intentions of honouring the Balfour Declaration. They did fight some of the Arabs, in part because many Arabs joined the Ottomans and the Nazis to fight against the British. That is not to say there wasn't plenty of nasty stuff coming from them, I'm not suggesting they were all innocent and honourable, but if you want to provide historical context, you have to provide all of it.
Yes, it’s unclear whether Jay leaves these details out purposely or if he really doesn’t know them. Either way, it’s ironic that says Sam’s knowledge of history is awful, when he leaves so much out himself.
Thankyou, yes! I would wish Jay would listen to some of the lectures Haviv Rettig Gur gives to young American Jewish college students about the Russian and other Easter European pogroms that drove the first waves of immigration. The way the USA, Britain, Canada, Australia and other countries shut down Jewish immigration from around 1902 or 1905 until even after WW2 has SO much to do with immigration from Europe to Palestine up until 1948. Learning that ~300,000 (from memory) captured Nazi soldiers and Nazi collaborators were plucked from the Displaced Persons camps, given shiny new passports, identities and citizenships BEFORE the thousands of Jews who were forced to stay in those camps for months, even 6 years on end in the Bergen-Belsen camp, because no country would have them, just broke my fkn heart. He describes the new Israelis as the Jews nobody wanted, and how a full 1/4 of the fledgling IDF were made up of those last displaced people who had had everything taken from them, literally coming from devastation and starvation with extra humiliation heaped on top. Who could endure what they endured? For them, protecting Israel was literally all they had. If they were brutish and uncompromising, there is plenty of blame to apportion to all parties who betrayed them, murdered their families, and left them with lifelong trauma to learn to live with.
I also think it's important to add how divided were the Jewish people regarding vengence acts against arab or terrorism against the British. It almost started a civil war. Hagana, that later became the IDF, handed in people from etzel and lehi to the British over disputes regarding the violent way they dealt with the restriction of Jewish immigration.
I did it, I listened, I gave Jay space to try make his point. I think first of all, using a westernised privileged Jew to speak on behalf of all Jews is completely not it, I totally value Yasmine bringing guests of all reaches on but I hate that this narcissistic man believes he is the voice of Jews. There may be an older view of Zionism, however majority Jewish secular communities only view it as a term that means we seek self determination in our homeland. We have just as much rights to the land as Palestinians, and we should share it, I agree with that sentiment, but he barely brought up any mentions of Oct 7th or the plight of the Jewish people too, rather he painted us as a privileged people where as in history we've been anything but privileged. He's entitled to an opinion, but absolutely doesn't represent the majority.
you should have had an history expert debate him. unfortunately, this seems like a very one sided review of history!
Very historically naive and it is sad to listen to... I am aghast actually, at such little awareness and pride.
I'd expect this from Norm Finkelstein clones...
Free Constantinople
This guys understanding of world events is elementary. You should invite francisco gil white. And mossab hussein yusef. The green prince.
39:30 Yasmine, the religious right wing has NOT highjacked Israel. They're trying to, but they haven't. Israel has a strong judicial system, and most Israeli's do not want an orthodox state.
No land was “taken” until the war of 1948, not a single acre! Most land was purchased way before the British controlled the area, during the time of the Turks…
Many of the early founders of Palestine (the Holy Promised Land of the Jewish people now called Israel) were lawyers. So all land purchases were duly documented and legal. Like our patriarch Abraham in the Bible, who paid silver tender to purchase the plot in Hebron to bury his wife, Sarah and refused to receive it as a gift.
I may not agree with everyone's idea of feminism but I'm still a feminist. Same with everyone's idea of Zionism, but I'm a Zionist
Jay seems overly optimistic and possibly naive. I say this not as a jew or a Muslim. But, the idea that two factions at conflict should just put their arms down and take a rest is naive, and not in reality. We can see this in the repeated violations of cease fire evacuations periods from both sides. While I admittedly do not follow his work, I will point out some things I think could have been done better:
As far as I could tell, he never once mentioned the seven years war following the ratification of Israel. A commenter seemed to make an allusion to it, but Jay either missed the point during his monologue, or by accident, or maybe it was an intentional oversight. The war resulted in capitulation of lands. Whether this is fair or not is moot, because this is what happens during war. The population are not taken into consideration during those agreements from either side. It is unfortunate, but that is the truth.
I also feel like his lack of acknowledgement of Islam is thoroughly obvious. He mentions Yasmin's mother's "confusion." I highly doubt she is confused. Yasmin made it clear the woman is antisemitic, but is smart enough to code switch in public. It is part of her religion, and part of the Quran as far as I am aware.
There is merit to being empathetic to those who are caught in the middle. But I feel like saying one is empathetic to both Palestinians and to Jews, but then repeatedly calling Israel an "occupation" is telling. Is it an occupation, or do those people have the right to live their lives.
There is a great book I suggest Jay read called "Jews do not count." It's probably more eloquent than I am here now. I understand where he comes from, ideologically, however I found him to be dismissive.
In my own life, I look very stereotypically Jewish since I am mixed heritage. The amount of vitriol I have had thrown at me from even before this conflict is possibly a fraction of what actual Jews have felt. If that is the case, my heart weeps for them. I answer the question: how is a Jew ethnic vs another religion: If a Muslim woman removes her hijab, and denounces Islam she is no longer a Muslim. But to many bigots, being Jewish is the same as the mark of Cain, and like a blood curse. It's less how you view yourself and how others view you.
Six days war. I apologize for that error, I was reading a book on the seven years war recently and it slipped out
Just out of interest you missed the suez crisis and the nakba. Why?
@@LonDanDoc because it can be argued that those are part of the 6 days war, and following agreements, resulting in Israeli troops withdrawing from the Sinai peninsula, Egypt reopening the suez canal, their acceptance for belligerence against Israel, and much later the resolution of Jordanian borders to their 1994 positions. I've also made a complete and total attempt to not use loaded terms for the conflicts. Nakba is a term pretty much exclusively by Palestinian scholars, just like the War for Independence is a term used by Israeli scholars, and wouldn't be used by third party historians. You could also claim that all of current day Palestine is historically Jordan, going back to 1917 agreements. It's even more complicated if you take in pre-British Ottoman colonialist, which wasn't exactly the rosy, multicultural history people like to pretend it was and was instead built on bloodshed and genocide like every other empire in history. While we're here, why not mention the Lebanese nationalist militias that existed in the same area at the same time slaughtering Palestinian Arabs?
The issue is that people color history by who they side with. I never said Israel is completely innocent, and only a moron would say so. However treaties and legal agreement exist independent of guilt, people's feelings, etc. Palestinians are the first people to claim inheritance for refugee status. This further complicates things on a legal scale, and muddies what is already a complicated history.
I could also point out that Israel had pro-Palestinian politicians in office, in office in high courts, and official Islamist parties within their government until October 7. Not because they silenced those people through force, but because they voluntarily revoked support of Palestine.
I was merely pointing out rhetorical issues I saw with Jay's opinions. This is the cornerstone of liberalism and plurality. However I personally believe that blood fueds aren't the way to a equitable or even any future. I'm not a historian, and I don't pretend to be an expert in middle east affairs. It's just not exactly intellectually honest to say (I'm jokingly paraphrasing) "the West bad" or that there's any one purely victimized side, except for children.
How does anyone plant to address the effects Hamas's rule has had against people? The children taught to hate Jews, the further displaced people, the people who starved while they swindled aid? Just as many new Arab nationalists were forged out for this conflict as new Zionist were formed. It's not a one way street to radicalization. A collective time out won't solve those problems. These are political actors, not toddlers having a tantrum.
@@Mae-u9hTalking about Islamists in the Knesset, I remember that he sided with Netenyahu just so they can break the tie in a recent election, just so they can finally have a formed government - pretty surreal.
Countries do it. Also, every country and/or continent that's been colonized and is now moderately peaceful has experienced this process (Australia, North America, South America, South Africa for example).
Fact: Jewish are from Judea. (you named it West Bank).
Arabs came to Israel on the british mandate because of job opportunities
You are literally proving just how necessary Israel is as a Jewish State. You said that the Ashkenazi Jews weren't on board with the Zionism project until they had to flee Europe. They also had to flee Arab States. A one State solution basically puts Jews back to where they were before.
Zionism: "a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel"
If you're against zionism, explain your opposition to it based the the actual definition. If you make it into something it's not, then it's much more straight forward to be against it.
i define it in my part 5 of my series using the behavior that it has exhibited relentlessly since it's first actions in the world... im not entirely sure how else to define it. I don't want to get into a semantic game but the point is that I would never want to be associated with anyone historically who proudly called themselves a "zionist" and i doubt many other liberals would either... so that is my usage of it here.
@@JayShapiroDilemmaHost
It's because as a leftist you reject nationalism (except when it's about brown people).
Zionism is the belief that jews should have a nation. You should finish tour homework. Check out Francisco gil white. You are indefensible.
@@JayShapiroDilemmaHostJohn McEnroe voice: "Answer the question!"
Just heard a bit of what Jay said, had to drop this podcast. Not at all the reality of my family. So many untruths! Can’t listen to this
Same. הרגשתי פשוט גועל כששמעתי אותו מדבר. הפסקתי באמצע. שרדתי שעה וחצי
Jay needs a lesson in history and how culture matters. When he begins by saying religious Jews attached themselves to Zionism early on, he shows he has no clue. The more religious Jews resisted Zionism strongly.
Kids get taught simplistic narratives everywhere at all times because they are kids. As we get older it becomes incumbent on ourselves to learn the deeper truths, and these truths are taught everywhere in Jewish spaces.
American Orthodox Jew here, educated in an orthodox zionist school. I somewhat agree that the version of the history of Israel that you get in a jewish elementary school is a much rosier one than reality, but as we got older, we learned more and more. We were definitely taught about the irgun, stern gang, etc. We had to find out about the ugly stuff (like Deir Yassin) on our own. But we were still taught that overall, we were the good guys... a view I still more or less hold.
In Fairness you're American so not the first time eh 😉
Exactly, it’s not normal to teach people at the details when they are still kids and teens. They should be kids and teens just living their lives, not forced into self hatred. Even when you learn all the details , anyone with rationality and basic critical thinking can work out who the good guy is. The details don’t change the overall story or intentions. The two sides are still completely different. Not two sides of the same coin at all. And for the Jews it’s always been survival. Not for the Arabs. They were displaced due to their own actions. But their violence was never for survival. It was a choice.
2:30:35 Jay, by saying "Israel is right next to the problem," just admitted that Israel is NOT the problem, which negates his entire previous argument. It seems to me that Jay is dealing with his own internal emotional jihad, and he should refrain from directing his own frustrations towards himself onto Israel and from judging the only free society in the Middle East.
28:00 The British didn't just "back off" Israel. Since India got its independence in 1947, the British had no need to maintain and protect the Suez Canal that used to be the route for goods from India. The idea that the British would feel "were done" of the situation in Israel because of a few groups of Zionists is ridiculous in view of their history of maintaining their Empire at all costs.
Zionism is as old as the Jewish People. We are Jewish because we have a uniquely Canaanite original Hebrew Language. Our Bible is still recited in the Hebrew/Aramaic language. Zionism is the expression of the Jewish People. You CANNOT BE A JEW AND NOT BE A ZIONIST! You are ignorant of the depth of your History. Stop apologizing!
JAY, Islam were colonisers, not Jews. Jews are the native people to this land. Look at history.
You don't talk about Palestine attacks on Jews in the 40s.
Ok I'm done here
14:42 A hole in Yasmine's story. Jews were being shot at by Arab snipers. That's not being "very kind" to them.
1:26:00 Jay seems to be projecting his own personal biases on the peace process by saying that Israeli people weren't really interested in it. Israel signed peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan. There's a historical basis for Israel's intentions in this regard, which Jay disregards.
After 20 years of living in Israel and 10 years of Palestinian dialogue and reaching out for peace and respect between our two people I’ve realized that it comes down to one thing. The fact that Israel is in fact our homeland and that the Palestinian nation will not accept this and they do whatever they can to continue brainwashing themselves and being in denial of this fact. Until we move on from this huge detail we cannot put our guns down and close our check points, etc. Yes it is a cruel situation and people are suffering a lot. It is not a question of whether it is heart breaking and horrible but whose fault it is? I can say with absolute certainty that most Israelis want peace and are willing to make huge sacrifices of our home land for this but we we will not leave and we do not have a partner on the other side with the same goals and intentions. I would have agreed with a lot of things Jay said a couple of years ago honestly. We don’t have a perfect history but over time and especially since October 7th I’ve realized that we are in grave danger from the Islamist agenda and we need to govern ourselves as Jews. We come from a people with very high morals and peaceful intentions and I am proud of that but we need to know where to draw the line and when stand up for ourselves.
Good Lord! Where did she find this guy?? He’s delivering such a rambling monologue, she can barely get a word in edgewise. And having heard her talk about Israel, she’s MUCH more of a Zionist than he is.
I’ve tried to keep listening to him, but his thought process is so disturbing, I’ve reached my limit.
He doesn't know anything about colonialism either. Colonialism serves the purpose of resource acquisition but of course Palestine was poor in natural resources. The only resources it had was the human capital of the Jewish population, who developed a much richer country than anyone else would have ever cared to.
Oh but all those well overpriced, unused malaria-ridden swamp lands and vast desert dunes of the Negev they bought were a veritable gold mine, surely!
Such a valid point, I never thought of that
1:27:50 There's that "but" again. Jay's lukewarm approach to the situation seems more like a copout than him not knowing the answer. He can't seem to admit that Israel is protecting inalienable rights of a free people in a "strip of land."
43:14 Jay would not be called a self-hating Jew just because he would criticize Israel. I believe that's his own personal victim mindset. In Israel and around the world many Jews criticize Israel in an ongoing public discourse. It's the sitting on the fence that renders Jay and people like him irrelevant in a solution-based dialogue.
I think Jay is very confused in a lot of issues.
40:18 Jay hasn't answered any of your questions. He admitted to not being a historian, and his assumptions seem to be a reflection of his own internal on-the-fence-ism.
Jasmine….I love your show but on this show Jay Shapiro leaves out so much history it’s unbelievable! Did he do it on deliberately or from lack of knowledge! I wonder…jasmine I suggest that you learn the Jewish history from other sources. Jay is not knowledgeable!
Kid level revisionism
Who is he calling the palestinians after world war one
Easy to speak like Jay does about Zionism and Israel from his privileged circumstances in the USA.
What dangerous views Jay has, did i hear he gives lectures? Who to islamic Terrorists? Bit of truth mixed with delusional lies. I think he means well, that is about it.
@JayShapiroDilemmaHost, Gaza and the West Bank were vastly more prosperous before 1987 and before 1993. The Gazan economy in particular and to a lesser degree the West Bank economy collapsed after 1993.
Some statistics:
Gaza's exports are 6.5% of GDP
Gaza's imports are 54.0% of GDP
Gaza's trade deficit is 54.0% - 6.5% or 48.5% of GDP (de facto foreign grants to Gaza per year)
Gaza has a 45% unemployment rate
Gaza's education system has collapsed since 193
Gaza and Hamas pay almost none of their bills and are almost completely funded by foreigners
Hamas practices a very conservative form of shariah combined with socialism. Hamas sees much of science, technology, engineering and math as Haram or impermissible.
How can your ideas about a one state solution be implemented as long as Hamas is in power? Hamas is literally one of the poorest and least economically developed places outside of Africa. Israel is a rich first world country. And Hamas wants a one state solution governed by very conservative shariah--which would make the one state solution you support dirt poor.
What are your thoughts about Israel temporarily administering Gaza and making Gaza rich?
2:18:40 IMHO Jay's mother is actually talking analogically about her feelings towards her own son. And I wonder if Jay is sad about seeing the dead Israeli babies that were murdered and kidnapped on Oct. 7, too.
Your not talking about Hammas ,this is the reason why this is happing , your talking about Palestinian,,,,
1:00:07 Jay just exposed his soul without intending to. He needs his pain to be acknowledged. He is human, after all.
Thank you, Yasmine, for your podcast. About Jay Shapiro, Zion is in the Bible and Yeshua is coming back for them. In Psalm 9:11, it says, "Sing praises to the Lord, which dwelleth in Zion: declare among the people His doings." It is mentioned many times in the Bible. History matters and so I enjoy reading the struggles of the only nation that has suffered more than any other nation. God uses this name (Zion) as a daughter. I pray for Israel daily. They have to win this war. Thank you for speaking out.
This guy seems to be missing alot of history. Where the Jewish people originally descended from,
2:26:29 Jay is actually talking about himself and his own need to radically redefine himself, not Israel. His assumptions as to what Israelis feel and should do about the situation is actually a reflection into his own soul. IMHO.
despite Jay's ability to be able to 'explain' and 'understand' the Palestinian side, at the end of the day, he fails to understand what is right or wrong morally.
as an example, I can 'explain' and 'understand' why Nazism arose in Germany in the 1930's but it doesn't mean that it's not wrong morally.
to tie it all together, arabs in Ottoman + British Palestine were violent towards jews from literally day 1 (all the way back to March 29, 1886 ) , Jews lived on legally purchased land through the 19's and early 20th century. so while jews immigrated to Palestine , it doesn't morally give the right to local arabs to attack. the jewish Irgun/Lehi organizations were late addition to the story, after years of arab violence towards jews.
the jews have the moral high ground by far in everything that happens in the middle east, this is why non morally confuse nations stand with Israel
He is uncritically accepting the critiques of Elon Paper. His position is sad. It isn't factual.
First : I like Yassmin. She looks exactly like my sister and I am Jewish (roots from Yaman).
You have a very American, diasporic Jewish take on the situation. Not accurate but steeped in narrative. And you dont really grasp the middle Eastern mindset.
You are lucky to have grown up in the West in these relatively easy times, and not had to genuinely fight for your own existence... it changes perspective.
❤ your podcast Yasmine
You bring up an interesting and important point. Most narratives coming from the U.S. are of course, "very American, diasporic Jewish takes on the situation". That's what's propping up Israel the country, the government/zionism financially. So, American Jewish views are incredibly important but limited. All of our views as humans are in some ways limited and lacking in perspective. Many groups today (including my own) and throughout history have had to fight for their own existence but have not received 1/10th of the financial support of Israel. This deserves critical reflection.
@@sdarling6518 That's because (I assume) you coming from the Black American community don't have literal countries trying to target and kill you; imagine like regimes that function like KKK and literally wanting to kill African countries.
@sdarling6518 You don't have countries that actually try to eliminate people of Africa or African decent though (probably the closest analogy I could give).
@@sdarling6518 You don't have countries that try to eliminate (not just discriminate) people of Africa or African descent though.
22:25 Another great big hole in Jay's story. Before the British Mandate, the area they called Mandatory Palestine was actually called "Surya al-Janubiyya (Southern Syria)," so there were no people called Palestinians that were under Ottoman control as Jay claims.
Shorter Jay: "Please deprive my people of political and national rights! Please!"