I did the zero and while I found benefits, it didn’t address my knee issues since it didn’t address any rotational movements. Also, I hadn’t realized how guru-esque that guy was. He seems to be very comfortable making absolute statements where it’s dangerous to do so.
I had to come back a few times to this marathon video to be able to digest what you are saying. Where I come from at the worn out joints age of 80 my perception is that the science is ever evolving & at the mercy of the "evolvers". Both Bren & Ben have taught me stuff, not the least lesson is that my abilities are not as good as they once were. When I see you guys performing movement I am very aware of making some allowance for my own wear & tear whilst working towards improvement. I have seriously trained in Ben's methods & have to say I have greatly benefited. This leads me to allowing myself to attempt some of the moves from Bren & wondering if I can maintain some of the range of motion that is now my main concern. My channel on UA-cam is an attempt to explain how to "hang in there" when the forces of nature try to take their toll.
Hey Bren, I took his Zero Knee program for a few months, and it really helped me out. I had been walking around with nagging injuries from martial arts and years of improper workouts - lots of pulled muscles, tight muscles, sciatica and both kneecaps that were dislocated from Muay Thai. I got all these injuries in my early twenties lol. After a month of his program, I was able to do a 25 rep Sissy Squat set. Before I started, I couldn't even do two quarter reps without incredible pain - it really works, I find the backwards walking is fundamentally important in body health, I even got my 63-year-old mother to do some workouts with me and she got improvement from them. I think his Zero program is a great re-hab / pre-hab protocol and his Dense and Standards take the Zero program to its ultimate conclusion. While simple and not a complete total workout, they are really useful for just about anyone. Your ending conclusion is fair and I agree with it, though I'd rate him a 4/5 stars just from personal bias.
Alight guys. thoughts? Plan is to do the volume, then programming for movers videos next. Probably separately, but maybe together- what do you guys want to see in those, or any other videos you'd like to see?
Very interested in seeing those videos!. Also, could you do a video showing how to progress toward more advanced flexibility?. Like going from beginner to loaded
I really want to see a showcase of your favorite movement games that you have come across! I've started playing Ido's Stick Game with my friends and we all love it! We made a variation that uses a ball instead. Movement games that involve partners are my favorite way to move and I'd love to know some of YOUR favorite games after spending so much time involved in the movement community :) Thanks for all your work, your content is invaluable!
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Those topics are great! They will be great to have it separately, they have lot of information to talk in both of them. How to create macrocycles will be interesting too (In my opinion the 8-12 weeks programs are more mesocycles). Thanks for your time and knowledge
How intertwined are the two topics? Do you have to refer to the other while discussing one a lot? If so, I prefer one video. If not, I prefer two videos (plus it's better for the algorithm as it sees you're more active).
I would love to see a zoom/facetime or in person of you talking back and forth with Ben, asking him questions and seeing his responses, almost a podcast style :)
I work as personal trainer myself. In my opinion your content is most honest and I agree with pretty much everything you are saying. I hope your channel will grow fast.
Hey Bren, I appreciate what you’ve provided here. After suffering a painful left knee injury last December, I came across Ben’s videos while looking for various therapy methods for rehabilitation. I had a therapist who put me on the road to recovery, but I felt there’s no such thing as TMI. There was NO WAY I was going to be able to execute some of his exercises.. 1) I needed to get somewhat back to “normal”, first.. and 2), I’m 68 years old. However, what he did provide was incredible inspiration, and encouragement, and I still watch his videos. I’m glad you provided this critique because, as I said, there’s no such thing as TMI. Back in my more frequent gym workout days, I MADE Butt-to-the-floor squats my favorite exercise (I hated squats for the longest time), and right now I’m working on getting back to that because I feel that having stronger quads will help protect my knees. I have also started regular bicycle rides to strengthen my legs. If anyone is suffering from knee injury I must say, if you can exercise through mild pain/discomfort, keep at it, you’ll find everyday it becomes easier and easier. Once again - THANKS - for providing this content. To Strength!
In case you have a gym with standing bycicles or any of that sort, I can highly recommend riding it backwards for cardio - targets your quads a lot more, and my knees always feel awesome afterwards!
knees over toes guy is phenomenal, the knowledge he's acquired over the course of his decade-long journey of study and practice to bring his surgically repaired knee back to health is simply amazing ..so inspiring is Ben Patrick that others have benefited greatly from the knowledge and wisdom ....his sincerity and positivity inspires those who were seeking help, like myself, who was unable to walk across a field a year ago without buckling over in hip pain, and who is now enjoying a quality of life again at 63, that I feared was not possible because that pain is gone a year later thanks to Ben Patricks program....just love him to death ...thank you Ben for helping me avoid hip surgery ....when in pain ATM..always thing muscles first ..💯💓
40:20 can you remember, where Quinn Henoch said this? Couldn´t find it, was it in a video or blogpost? Was he referencing a study? Really curious about this part
Man this channel is absolute gold. It took me a month to watch this video in full but stuff that I learn on this channel is just out of this world. TRUTH WILL PREVAIL
Excellent. If there's enough interest here (like this comment) I'd love to do a full video on this too. The review I wrote was on icing and cryotherapy in particular, but much of the research on icing is done within the setting of the RICE protocol.
I don't even need to watch this video because I know for a fact that what he says is true. I'm a walking, living breathing example of this. My knees were completely wrecked from.years of sport and bad bio mechanics. I had less the 90 degrees of flexion on my left knee and my right knee was pretty average. I've been following his exercises to a tee for 4 months and can already see massive improvements. He is a genius.
Congratulations on that win! kneesovertoes is a maestro, i agree. Just one note, most of the comments on what's been proved get a ver positive reinforcement here, this is not a testosterone test review. The man is actually honest and transparent with his knowledge. "less knee-pain, more knee-ability" ;)
Tell us exactly what your physiological structural compromise was before spouting this. I have had an ACL recon, a meniscus repair and a meniscectomy all at different stages and i struggle with knee pain, i have a real tangible issue here. I’m sceptical and it’s made worse by people like you claiming he has THE answer without actually stating what exactly you’ve rehabilitated from….
@@JohnDoe-12 Instead of 'spouting' from your fingertips like you're seriously questioning someone's feedback because you're looking for a definite positive answer before you commit yourself to trying, why don't you fully research a small knee of toes routine and stick to it, then see if it makes a positive impact, then build on it if it does work! If you're not willing to try anything without a 100% guarantee, then fine, feel sorry for yourself and do nothing! 🤷🏻♂️
@@JohnDoe-12 ACL and meniscus surgery on the left knee here, did all my rehab on my own, I'm now squatting my bodyweight with no pain. Included quite a few of the KOTG's advice in my rehab, still do. The ATG split squat and Nordic curls are gold for knee health.
Amazing video and debunk of the dogma of perfect form and Controlling language , THANK YOU SO MUCH for those insights , information and your great enhancing energy Bren ! Long life to you !
Thanks for the review Bren I really appreciate your effort! 44:58 that sounds very interesting, could you do a video on it? Or maybe on different breathing techniques/habits in general ?
Bren, I hear you talk about spine flexion in deadlift...what you think about prof Stuart Mcgill aproach to spine rehabilitation and "always neutral spine"?
Could you explain further what you mean at the one hour and one minute mark? About how just training the physical attributes is myopic. I don’t fully understand what you mean by this. Are you refering to within the s and c realm there can be more done or are you saying athletes should be more focused on skill of their sport? Love the video!
A little question: Regarding the comment that any load is sufficient to strengthen joints etc when you respnded to the ATG Split squat as necessary to strengthen these. I would think intuitively that load from different angles and position would give different access to loading of particular part of knee joint. I don't understand the full scope of the SAID principle, but I would think that this also would apply for strengthening of joints. Load is of course important, but different vectors should have different implications for the same joint, and I would really loved to understand the depth of this difference. What's your take om using different ranges for strengthening of joints?
Thanks for making this KOT review. Doing his Zero progam jacked my knee. It was doing a Patrick Step variation he suggests in that program. I was doing fine with the rest of the leg exercises in Zero. It's probably a great exercise for most people, but I don't like that he says there are no outliers.
Ben - and the backwards deadmill - was instrumental in me getting rid of knee pain, getting back into running, and most surprisingly started spontaneously sprinting again over a decade after I'd given up running. There's a lot I wish was different however, especially for someone who can really heal people like my parents age who are getting knee replacements and hearing shit like there cartilage is gone (bone on bone) and need a simple place to start. For that reason I wish there were more visible examples on Bens program and within the movement world of fat, overweight, old, pain ridden bodies working within a pain free program to reclaim their bodies. The people who need the most help dont have any examples of people like them that they can identify with and say "that could be me"; only ripped young bodies and the occasional aged eccentric also ripped movement gurus.
Very thorough and mindful review on Kneesovertoesguy. Ive been very skeptical of the whole fitness or rehab industry. Only a few channels I follow and respect and gotta say man… you earned my follow and respect. I have a B.S. in Kinesiology and am a personal trainer. I see a lot of people on youtube claim studies or name them, but very few know how to interpret them. And you do, felt like I was back in class doing research papers as I heard you speak and clarify. Its a breath of fresh air. Thanks for doing these brother! 💪🏼
Im loving incorporating a lot of his suggestions. Feels very therapeutic. Hes a rambler tho lol !! I had to watch several review videos to get more step by step, concise explanations of how to do the workouts for myself at home.
I'd be interested in seeing a video, by you, which reviews the most common BJJ warm-up exercises and their effectiveness/practicality for improving ability to assume the positions, and make the motions needed for Jiu Jitsu/grappling, vs. a possible alternative group of warm ups that you think might or should be done to help teach BJJ.
I just need to know how to get my quads to not feel so tight and in pain all the time . Combat sports athlete sp very heavy leg use from jiu jitsu . This happened like out of nowhere past 3 years . Im convinced cork rolling and lacrosse ball stuff might be making it worse even though helps relieve pain in the moments after . Idk . I'm currently using bens protocols was hoping it may help
@@levirognejensen1745 its not painful like in a way that I cannot perform those movements its just major tightness and discomfort afterwards and throughout the day and no amount of foam /cork rolling, tim tam high powered massaging, or stretching seems to help 😕. Not yet anyway 🤷
I would definitely recommend Ben's method for knees. Knee pain I'd experienced for 15 years went away after doing his Zero program for a few months. I've read countless comments of people with the same experience. Definitely worth a shot at least.
What would be the benefit of performing Nordic curls if the hamstrings are already strong from squats and deadlifts? Do both functions of a muscle have to be trained for optimal development?
Yes, from a size perspective regional hypertrophy occurs depending on the function worked. From a function/injury perspective, nordic curls train the hamstring in a highly lengthened position and therefore provide additional resilience + strength in those ranges.
I know Im hella late on this but any idea if you can show some of the sources you cite or even how you find them? Im having trouble building my knowledge
Got any solution for bursitis of the knee&elbow? I started BJJ recently, and made a mistake of doing drills on the wooden floor. Now my bursas are sensitive and I cannot go to class
About the RICE method, ice is good for pain true, but doesn't it slow down the healing process, since it lessens inflammation, and inflammation is crucial for the healing process?
Hi Bren, at around 40 min you mention the number of minutes required to change the architecture of muscle tissue through static streatching but you say 20 min per week at the beginning and then per day, which one is it? Olso I would appriciate to hear your thoughs on the work of andreo spina whom I'm sure you've heard of. Thanks again, great quality content
Hey Leo, the numbers I go by are 20 min per muscle group per day to lengthen the physical structure of the muscles, but just 5-10min per muscle group per week to maximize increases in flexibility in a meta review of a whole bunch of 8-12 week studies.
34:52 i thought it was obvious to everyone that doing nordics or concrete would be not good, and even if you didnt do it while slamming your knees into the floor it would still hurt like a bitch
27:07 huh? if you deadlifted a heavy weight until failure and then tried to force yourself through 30 more reps, that clearly would be generally dangerous, to laugh and say, no, you'd be fine, um... ? When your deadlift ability starts to fail it usually involves mid spine fatigue, it's important that all our muscles are equally up to the task when working a muscle group exercise.
I think the point is that it's about relative difficulty rather than absolute weight. A small weight can still be dangerous if applied in a certain way (in this video e.g. finger lifting)
On his point about the exersize being safer he said "once you hit failure deadlifting, imagine doing 30 more reps, you would risk injuring yourself" You very confidently disagree with this point, saying no, your back would be fine, there's *nothing about a heavier load that means a higher risk of injury*" which seems like a very broad generalizations in reference to his specific deadlift example but i digress. I don't see how this could be the case. Injuries from deadlifting is very common when it comes to all weight lifting injuries.There's so many things that could go wrong if you aren't mindful about form, which muscles you're activating, hinging properly, etc. If someone goes to failure, then muscle their way through 30 more reps, how would it not make sense that the risk of injury goes up? I imagine a lot of people would start compensating more, and the form would not remain consistent if they're continuously straining, giving everything they've got over and over again after already deadlifting passed muscle failure. Maybe for you, it makes sense that you specifically wouldn't have higher risk of injury, but I don't think he's adressing the top 0.1% of people in mobility knowledge, who are guaranteed to repeatedly deadlift to failure over and over again with peak form. I think he's addressing the other 99.99% of the audience, who would have a high risk of injuring themselves if they tried such a thing lol. A large portion of his audience are already injured, in pain, and looking to get better.
You have to keep in mind, if your muscles can’t handle the load of a deadlift at any point you can simply drop it, the ability to do 30 reps after failure implies if not defines low intensity, and this is also in comparison to other exercises. In addition, long story short the things you mention have no legitimate scientific basis to effect injury risk (have never had any evidence for them).
I am wondering why you have two watches on ? I love Bens stuff his program helped to get my knees back to 100% and beyond ! His program can definitely work for a lot of people if you follow properly
Do you believe that muscles can actually get longer? I've read some stuff about longitudinal hypertrophy through full range of motion strength training, and I'm not sure if that's technically lengthening muscle by adding satellite cells to the end or not.
I believe so, yes, but haven't looked into it myself yet. My source here is Quinn Henoch, who I think is very reliable. if anyone looks into this and can find any primary research, please leave it here!
Would love if you critique GMB Fitness (the guys that introduced me to locomotion, they seem to reference a lot of the pain science that you mention in the video, and they're insanely good at customer service and overall business integrity) and also Vahva fitness (These guys echo the same foundational ideas that Ido portal preaches and also even GMB fitness, however they also advocate for more ancient and traditional modalities e.g. QiGong, I honestly would love to hear your thoughts about them.)
So i searched your videos for one that would help prevent and cure knee injury. I found none, do you only make videos to criticize other couches? or do you actually offer some help?
Hey David, check out my recent video on ‘how to heal any injury’ or the older one ‘a smarter approach to pain and injuries’. You must have missed them ;)
Your ad says your online coaching is now open. I’m so excited… I paused the video to sign up, but your website still shows online coaching is closed. 😞
Hey Bren, good review, although I feel like a lot of the negative stuff you mention about him is just random marketing stuff he spoke about (like him saying he could make it impossible to get injuries in bball) or how some of his stuff isn't backed by science. But his actual workouts work and science can't keep up with everything. So, a 3.5 is kind of low. Especially considering how many people copy him.
Thanks man. Yes, but marketing or no, if I ever get to a point in my career where I don't take some serious points off for a popular health and fitness figure making public and blatantly false claims like this, please slap me. Also, as I mentioned, he is behind the science in a number of areas as well.
@@BrenTeachesMovement I think you're losing the forest for the trees. The fact is, he is helping tens of millions of people improve their mobility. What's more important - helping people or getting the facts right? I would rather take a Ben over someone who is always 100% accurate with their statistics but only reaches a few thousand people because they simply aren't an effective communicator.
Ben method is a great way to start the journey. It's simple seem logical and got me out of a jamb. Now that I have progressed and started to learn more I still appreciate his techniques and use a lot of them but from my new perspective. It worked well for me.
wow i didnt expected a 3,5/5 stars i thought u will giv him 4 or maybe even 4,5 stars but i can understand ur explenation about the pain part from KOT cause there was almost none and the same goes for the skill component andd thank u for that video bro, u gave some different perspective about ben. Thank u for ur effort 🙏
Yeah. Honestly he would have if he didn't say that he could 'easily make it physically impossible to get injured playing basketball', but given that he did say that, and the whole thing with science and misreading studies, I think the 3.5 is well earned but generous.
As someone who has done 1x bodyweight in a Jefferson curl, and also as someone who ends up with some bend in the deadlift when I get close to 2x+, I don’t really see the problem with losing the straight back in these positions, as I kind of just assumed it was a bit of loss of perfect form from the heavier weights and not really problematic in any way. Similar to losing some in anything as you get super stressed / tired out by the movement.
Sorry if it wasn't clear, my point was that not only is there no real evidence to support the idea that lumbar flexion isn't a problem or mistake, that study in elite powerlifters was evidence that it may even be proper technique. Personally, I still cue people to arch if they can, but I always keep this in mind.
Hey Bren, as per usual phenomenal content man as an aspiring athlete I love seeing people who are so knowledgeable, passionate and enthusiastic but at the same time lead from the front and are open minded. Especially the philosophy of having balance and combining every type of movement, so that we don't become specialists(I also follow Ido, but being 15 and broke doesn't allow me to study under him🤣) I just wanted to say that you are an inspiration.
bro said "its good marketing" like ben patrick is making money from people walking backwards. "if you walk backwards, i get 50 dollars every steps but its good for your knees". good marketing is hilarious. already to a good start on this channel.
Thank you Bren, your view is always valuable. In regards with Ben's lack of references, he doesn't need any. He uses logic which is above any scientific research. An imbalance or weakness will eventually cause injury. When you strike, jump, run etc a very high percentage of the force you apply will return to your body. Your muscles and tendons as a unit will absorb the forces and will protect your joints. If a muscle is not doing it's job a percentage of this energy will either leak into the joints or another muscle will have to take the burden to compensate.(for years after 10 minutes of running I had a pain in the outer side of my left ankle. after training tibialis, running barefoot and working on my hip stability it completely disappeared within 2 months. I had sprained this ankle several times in the past) The problem with waiting a study in order to accept something as a truth is that we are missing out valuable knowledge that can make us happy, be it a movement advise or plant medicines. Also it has created a society where people always look externally when they need knowledge instead of looking into the source, which is their own experience of body and mind.(I don't believe you are one of those people though at all). It's painful because people disregard any information without studies and ironically this may be the solution to their problems.
Hey Jonny, thanks for the kind words and adding your perspective here. I disagree fairly heavily with the point I believe you are making for the most part- I'll cover a few separate areas as someone very close to me made a similar argument not long ago. 1) For KOTG in particular, he occasionally quotes specific research (e.g. "you're 4x more likely to injure your hamstring if you have an ankle injury"). I recognize that it's more effort to go through and cite the studies you referenced, but it's very minimal compared to actually reading them, and gives people a chance to look into the foundation of the claims you're making. For instance, in the case of the above, he actually almost completely misread the study, as I went through in the video. However, in another case (talking about the importance of the hip flexors for sprinting) When I dug out the references, It was actually very compelling, and turns out it seems I was the one in the wrong. 2) I think it's important to separate the ideas, concepts, and paradigms of science from the individual studies, and the way research is typically used or associated with. Individual studies are notoriously bad. So bad that Stanford literally created an entire department dedicated to reproducing research, and the typical number mentioned is horrifying: only ~50% of studies are reproducible. and if only 50% are reproducible, we could only guess how low their accuracy may be in terms of their theories and hypotheses. That said, science on the whole, is beautiful, wonderous, and in my eyes, the foundation of human development. and science isn't limited to just the quantitative stuff you're probably aware of- in the last few decades huge advances have been made in the field of qualitative research- an area I think you would enjoy looking into. Science is simply the idea and practice of testing what we think we know, and recognizing more often than not that we were wrong. individual studies and scientists may point us forwards, backwards, or sideways, but on the whole, we over time learn from our mistakes, and the field advances forward. For instance, you mentioned plant medicines. there's a large number of psychoactive plants that are starting to get a lot of attention for a number of conditions: Psilocybin, Marijuana, Ayahuasca, etc., and regardless of any current politics or perspectives, if these plants have a benefit for any condition we can look at, quantitatively OR qualitatively, science will show and support it. For instance, many people have no idea that aspirin was developed from the bark of the white willow tree in the 1800's. Almost of the research I did at Stanford was on the many awesome effects (anti cancer, anti-alzheimers, etc.) of Celastrol, a small molecule which is the most active in the thunder god vine, a plant commonly used for hundreds of years in traditional Chinese medicine. On the flip side, it was science that showed us how harmful cigarettes and smoking was, and created the foundation to change the culture, fight and restrict a multi billion dollar industry and save, at this point, many thousands of lives. 3) Finally, I understand your point about people disregarding things that haven't been backed up by science. I offer to you first that science should not restrict creativity or art. Second, I'm not generally a fan of waiting for studies of a particular thing before trying it on a personal level, however, there's a level of foundational literature in every area that's going to tell you if something's likely to be a good idea or not. We all have limited time, energy, and money, and in general I personally don't want to be wasting time trying things that are already contradicted by previous research, when there's an infinity of things to try. In fact, just trying things for yourself and seeing if they work for you is a practice of science as well- albeit for most people a very weak one. P.S. I'm going to make a sweeping and harsh generalization here: I believe most if not all figures in the health, fitness, and movement spaces who disregard, distrust, or worst of all, openly reject science do so only because 1) they don't understand it or 2) science has, would, and will continue to shred their life's work into scraps of the placebo effect. If you're doing anything real and truly positive, the science will (eventually) always support you. Cheers man, and may the science be with you ;).
Thank you very much for taking the time to reply Bren. You definitely made me think a lot. You are right, if you mention a study you need to have a reference for it. What I wanted to focus on is that sometimes logic itself is enough for accepting an idea, without asking for a specific study to back it up . Ben says that you need to strengthen your muscles in the long and short range and training both agonist and antagonist muscle in every joint. That makes sense and those were amongst the first things I realised when started observing my body in motion. The ability to observe is the foundation of science, this is how science starts and we need to practice it because we all have this ability. A lot of people purely reproduce thoughts all their life instead of producing it. I believe science is important but it needs the right orientation, which is finding applications to relief physical-psychological pain and make people happy. Without that it is lost or even dangerous. Also at least in England,in medical schools they don't even mention fasting as a therapeutic tool. But it's a powerful one! In terms of aspirin, scientist discovered,(thank you science :-))Neatherdal knew the trick 40000, please see the link.www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-39205530 For Neatherdal it was just experience and observation back then, they wouldn't wait a study to approve, in order to get relief. People today just look for a study and their judgement weakens. Also I am sure you have met a lot of people who have chronic joint pain, went to a physiotherapist who applied their university teachings, they took well studied drugs and nothing happened. I was one of them when suffering with my neck. Eventually I realised that I have to treat it. I spent hours per day just moving my neck and instead of purely asking why is it in pain, I also asked how does it work? This was key to understand it and fix it. also I was let down by well studied psychiatric medication that harmed my body and counselling which made me live from my neck and above and ignore how a stiff spine can ruin your mood. Movement mainly, plenty of meditation/self exploration and plant medicines secondly helped to overcome my problems. Sometimes you have no other option than relying on yourself. I know people don't have time but in my opinion there is nothing more important than knowing your self and overcoming pain. What I wanted to say is that people don't need science necessarily to solve your problems(if you have it why not), as you have the tools to solve it. also one needs to practice logic before accepting an idea. In regards with time and money, trying your self is free. It takes time but what is more important and interesting than knowing your body and mind? It's worth the time. You become happier and you share the feel good tips with others. You know that better than me! Science is important as well as experience, but sometimes life is hard and some people may not have any help. one can still find the solution though. It doesn't mean that modern humans are happier than Neatherdal were because we have science and complex languages. Thanks again brother and I am grateful for the knowledge you share.
@@jonnyardan8446 I agree with you wholeheartedly. The studies are what led physiotherapy to the abysmal point its in currently. If we'd waited for the research to be done on Ben's KOT programs, many millions of people would be foregoing their own health for the sake of sticking to "the science". Not everything in life needs a double-blinded, placebo-controlled study to prove its effectiveness; especially when it's something that is free (as all Ben's content is) and with little to no risk (I am yet to hear a story of someone injuring themselves attempting KOT exercises).
I think what Ben is really great at is communicating his ideas simply and effectively. Sure, sometimes the nuances may be lost and claims may be on the bold side, but I think that is 100% worth it given that he has reached easily tens if not hundreds of millions of people by now. And at the end of the day, his programs are clearly effective for most people. The point about him not going beyond physical attributes really feels like nit-picking. I'd assume that Ben - and anyone really - would rather leave the skill acquisition side to the experts in their respective fields. His area is mobility and joint health, and as far as I can tell he is helping more people in those areas than anyone else in the world by quite a wide margin. Has he done and said everything perfectly? Certainly not. But he has presented his ideas and packaged them in such a way that they have helped millions of people improve their lives and he puts all of his content out there for free (so the framing as some of his content being "marketing speak" seems a bit disingenuous, especially given you have some of your content behind a paywall). That fact, to me, easily outweighs any occasions where he uses hyperbole or doesn't cite statistics with 100% accuracy. EDIT: I would like to add (as I pointed out in another comment - sorry for flooding you with comments by the way) that I think the 3.5 stars is unfair and borderline irresponsible. When I say irresponsible, I mean that you could easily dissuade people from giving his programs a try (because who in their right mind would dedicate several months to a program with a rating of 3.5 stars?). So your video could lead to preventing people from regaining mobility and joint health by not trying a program that (let's be honest) has proven its effectiveness more than any single study could have. I'm not sure if there's some level of envy involved or you're simply trying to balance out the overly gushing positive reviews by swinging the pendulum in the other direction. But it does not seem to be coming from the same place as Ben, which is to help as many people as possible improve their mobility.
Hey Jake, Thanks for engaging with me here. I definitely agree, Ben's greatest strength is his ability to communicate simply, effectively, and I would add, passionately. I think ben actually has much more of his content behind a paywall than I do- mine is just directly visible through UA-cam channel memberships, his is through his website where he probably links to the many videos he puts private (unlisted) on his channel. (I didn't do any math, but Many if not most of the videos I watched for this video in December are no longer available on his channel). I put all my best work up here for free for all of you, many of the movements and specific programs are through my channel memberships because that's the easier part if you understand the concepts, and I have to make a living somehow. Seriously, I summarized my book and entire rehab method as best I could in a 30 min video and put it up for free. It's interesting that it gives you this perception though, I'll take note of that. Popularity doesn't exclude or excuse inaccuracy, and I said this was a brutally honest review, not a 'well he seems to be having a good effect so I'll let it slide' review. What I'll call the science issue It's a hell of a lot more than just not citing statistics with 100% accuracy as well, but I'll also remind you that I did give him 4.5/5 for exercise design. I really did mean it when I said this was a really strict and harsh scale- I'm holding him to the highest standard as a public figure and leader in the field. on a similar scale, I think most fitness coaches would be lucky to get 2 stars, let alone 3.5, and I wouldn't bother talking about them because they wouldn't have any new, interesting, or valuable ideas of their own. I think you're jumping to some assumptions about my motivations here that you wouldn't if you'd watched any of my other videos.
@@BrenTeachesMovement Thanks for the response Bren. Very reassuring to know you take feedback to heart. And I apologise for assuming your motications. I didn't realise all of your content was free. From the layout on your channel, it looked like paying subscribers were the kind of inner circle, with full access to your methods. My mistake. Having been a subscriber on Ben's app, I haven't seen any exercises on there he doesn't show for free on UA-cam or Instagram. The main benefit is the imposed structure and also the feedback on form (you send in videos of your technique) and them answering any of your questions. I understand your point with it being a harsh scale; I still think the 3.5 star rating could mislead some people into thinking his overall system/program isn't effective, simply because of how people are used star ratings being used. 3.5 stars suggests to me (and I imagine a lot of people) - some decent content, overall pretty average and certainly nothing special. Given that Ben's methods are pretty much revolutionising the industry and changing countless lives, I don't think that's a fair impression to give people, even if it's not intended that way on your part. Who are some trainers (if any) you'd give a better rating than 3.5 to by the way? Thanks again
I'd love to see studies on the efficacy of the exercises Ben promotes. I have to take them with a grain of salt because he's p-hacking when referencing studies, or lacking a necessary understanding, and he's a great salesman.
Me too, but I think studies on specific exercises are generally hard to justify & that every exercise is useful, the question is how useful, and for what (and when).
@@BrenTeachesMovement This is a great critique video. I've haven't had an issue with the reasons Ben provided since I chose his program for "lengthening and strengthening". In hindsight it is concerning why he'd present it this way... I was able to learn front splits in 3 weeks, where I was stagnant prior. Which I did not expect or intend with his program. I'm 18 weeks into his program, and feeling a plateau on the "lengthening" benefits. I'd like to continue with my other movement goals like side splits, backbending, handstands etc. If you have any recommendations I'm all ears. You are more knowledgeable than I expected. Did you go to school for any specialization or self taught? I know you mentioned you did some classes, but not sure. Personally, I'm trying to change gears in my life, and your expertise in practice and knowledge is in line with what I'm aiming for. Your video on optimization has been huge help. Thanks for sharing
Thumbs down for the title already - your 'brutally honest' is actually just your best attempt at analysis. But, high levels of honesty for scientific claims should be baked into the cake.
Developed gluteal tendinopathy after doing his 'monkey feet' weighted leg raise exercise, 7 months ago. Somewhat close to having it rehabbed, but I regret ever coming across the guy's stuff. Haven't hit a leg day since February, my legs have atrophied to sticks. Long time (10 years) distance runner, haven't laced up a pair of running shoes since then either. Won't even bother getting into the mental toll this injury has taken on me.
That sucks, hope you recover and get back to where you want to be asap. I started with a lower back/sacroiliac injury, never managed to have it diagnosed as docs just put me on opiates, benzos and NSAIDs and I was prone for 2 weeks then like a 90yo for several weeks after. Waited for a scan for 3 months until letter came asking me to call to arrange an appointment, by that time I was on the road to fixing myself with calisthenics and intermittent fasting. Only side effect was sore knees and I came across Ben. I do find the tibalis raises and backward sled good exercises for alleviating knee pain and as "prehab" to strengthen the joint and prevent injury. My main lesson I learned is to strengthen the body in balance i.e. not leave anything out. Prior to my injury I was playing amateur league soccer twice a week plus soccer training and doing no other type of training not even strengthening core or stretching etc and I think favouring kicking with my right foot I developed a hip flexor tear on the right side leading to weakness in that hip and then a SI joint/lumbar injury. Now I train legs x 2, push x 2, pull x 2 and core x 2 every week with short runs and deadmill (backwards sled) every day. At 40yo my body is the the strongest and most stable and balanced it's ever been.
That sucks @paul , sorry to hear that. Hope you get back to full power soon, check out my rehab video if you need any help or ideas with structuring things for yourself
I appreciate all the effort you put into these videos and your overall approach. Still focused on educating and empowering the audience .. Love it! Thanks so much. I would love the opportunity to learn from you 1-1.. Prince Matharu
We (ie people in general) love a good “counter intuitive” marketing pitch. Just look at all the hype around CrossFit a few years back which was pitched as a counter to “gym bro” culture. Now we have “Knees Over Toes Guy” saying it’s ok to do something that is generally advised against for knee pain/health. In both cases, there are valid points being made (ie training in “unconventional” ways may offer some benefits) but in both cases the hype is just that, hype. Prepare to see “the next big thing” and then another “next big thing” that purportedly upends conventional wisdom in the years to come. Note: I studied exercise science in college, hold multiple certifications (including CrossFit), and was a trainer/coach for over a decade so with thousands of clients and many more thousands of training hours under my belt I have a bit of perspective on this subject ;)
Something being "counter intuitive" or "the next big thing" doesn't bear any relation on the actual effectiveness of the protocol in question. I think equally as much, whenever something comes along that takes the industry by storm, there are certain people who gain a sense of superiority from "seeing through the fad" and not "jumping on the bandwagon" like everyone else. As to KOT actual effectiveness, I don't see how you can call something "just hype", when there are quite literally hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of people publicly saying the protocol has drastically improved their mobility and health, not to mention many scientists and trainers (such as yourself) endorsing them.
Check out Conor Harris videos. I personally have a great experience with him and his course. would be interesting to watch simailar video about his approach. He is all about mobility and pain management. very interesting perspective. opposite of what a lot of people are saying and believing. I can say that because of his teaching i can come out of pain on my own, while for the same issues i used to go to a physiotherapy massages etc. KOT tho made my healthy knees hurt.
I want to know was it just me that got the impression he was selling two things: 1. fixing your knees and keeping them fixed. 2. A blueprint for having elite athletic ability. I had no knee pain prior and I was sold on this program on the basis that he had found a way to reverse engineer strength in a way that would get me to peak physical performance. Hitting all the right numbers body weight split squat, fancy Nordic etc..but something about his obsession with quads seems to be pissing off my knees.
@@lucasgrey9794 its opposite of placebo. Nocebo = negative expectation craete negative outcomes. Goata propagates information that can make some people scared of exercising, their philosophy is like when you will move with bad biomechanics you will ruin your body. If you want to fix it and don't ruin your body come to us goata coaches! Goata pretty much talks about biomechanics and overemphasise importance of it. Biomechanics are important sure. But pain isn't always result of bad biomechanics. Pain is signal in the brain and it can be caused by so many things. And I think improving biomechanics don't work. Your body will always try to do movements the easiest way. Most people would benefit more from standard strenght training then goata.
@@BrenTeachesMovement honestly I though it common knowledge in the physical therapy world that muscle imbalances leads to asymmetrical loading which leads to injury, the same is true for a building or any structure not just the human body. If I had to give a source I would generally do it it and list Charles poliquin and Kelly starett.
@@BrenTeachesMovementBut why do think muscle imbalances specifically **do not** increase the risk of injury? Could you please cite your sources yourself, that'd be new information for me. So muscle imbalances don't have any negative implications or effect on things like mobility, posture, and form? The other comment mentioned that it was regarded as common knowledge that muscle imbalances could lead to asymmetric loading and injury within the physical therapy world. which I also assumed to be the case Also, because of the massive range of potential muscle imbalances and the massive range of implications/effects it has on a case by case basis, completely disregarding muscle imbalances as a cause for injury risk was a surprise. Would love to see your sources this intrigues me, thanks!
@@BrenTeachesMovementrelative weakness of one set of glute med/minor is very well known to lead to common knee injuries for runners. the imbalance often arises from inadvertent preferencing of one side during everyday movements like picking things off the floor via a SLDL type of movement. right handers will have comparatively weak left glute med/minor
I called it as a saw it. When he gave simple universal rehab prescriptions I called him on it, and when he said to avoid pain (which was somewhat rare) I gave him credit for it. Still, as I discussed that alone is not enough, nor acutely consistent with modern pain/injury/rehab research. Here’s the nuance I’m calling him on that you didn’t catch. Ben implies through his teaching (mainly through how little he talks about pain), and I’m sure believes himself, that pain isn’t that important because his exercises are structurally and theoretically sound (if performed to his or his coaches standards). But the reality is the opposite- structure wise, the research shows over and over that we don’t know what we’re doing- it’s the pain and changes in pain, as well as pain free function that matter the most.
@@BrenTeachesMovement He mentions pain free movement in literally every video. He talks about the core principles of using pain as a gauge to avoid more injuries. One should decrease load or range of motion to work on rehab or strength training while avoiding pain. Some people can't walk backwards because the load is to much. Ben mentions that and talks about regressing the lift or using assistance to complete the movement pain free. Do you disagree with these core concepts? Ben's issues is many doctors advocate for avoiding movements which means never getting better. You can do a movement without pain by reducing the load or range of motion. Those can be added back as strength improves.
@@jwatson181 These are good concepts that I agree with and I'm glad that you seem to have gotten them from ben's videos. Perhaps they were emphasized more in videos that were unlisted from his channel before I did the review or added afterwards.
@@BrenTeachesMovement That is possible. His short videos can eliminate a lot of this nuance. He has moved a lot of his video onto his paid content list. From a personal experience, his program got me dunking again after a knee injury. I could not even put any weight on it for weeks. I just regressed the movement and focused on zero pain improvement.
Eccentric training has been known in sports training so I dont really get why he is all in the hype. Eccentric training has the purpose to strengthen joints and muscles around the skeleton to lift heavier or absorb force. He is all marketing in my opinion.
@@BrenTeachesMovement As you sarcastically alluded to, I was not attempting to have an intellectual conversation. I know enough to not bother with that online. I was only making a point. Ben's own story, as well as the stories of countless people including myself are the difference. You're giving too much weight to the marketing and not enough to the product. I had low back pain for 10 years and have tried it all. Bens program and insights were the difference. If understood and applied properly , his program works, and is helping people.
@@BrenTeachesMovement You attributing his success for "marketing" seems very disingenuous. As far as I (and virtually everyone who listens to him) can tell, he is genuinely driven by helping people regain their mobility. If what he was doing was simply marketing, it would not be effective and people would have seen through it by now. Honestly, some of the things you say as well as the score you gave him make me question what your actual motives are. People could discover Ben through your video and decide not to try his programs simply because you gave him a 3.5 star rating (because who would go to the effort of following a 3.5 star program for months?). In other words, you could be dissuading people from trying something that is free (unlike much of your content) and that has helped millions of people.
@@jesse3733 i'm late to the party. You're talking about his success. But other than his word, has he ever put any footage of the time when he was injured and was going through a rehab or do we have to believe him because he's a nice guy?
I've discovered a new herb in the forest of New Hampshire, which when used makes it physically impossible for the user to get injured playing basketball.
Quickly, start selling it! No need to get the FDA involved, they’ll just cause unnecessary fuss about “side effects” and “peer review”. All hogwash if you ask me
He doesn't say physically impossible. He does say that being strong in those positions can drastically lower the probability of getting injured. That is obviously true. Why did I waste my time on your dumb video?
@@jwatson181 please keep your comments respectful. If you listen closely it is a direct quote of him in a video saying “physically impossible to get hurt playing basketball.”
I did the zero and while I found benefits, it didn’t address my knee issues since it didn’t address any rotational movements. Also, I hadn’t realized how guru-esque that guy was. He seems to be very comfortable making absolute statements where it’s dangerous to do so.
I had to come back a few times to this marathon video to be able to digest what you are saying. Where I come from at the worn out joints age of 80 my perception is that the science is ever evolving & at the mercy of the "evolvers". Both Bren & Ben have taught me stuff, not the least lesson is that my abilities are not as good as they once were. When I see you guys performing movement I am very aware of making some allowance for my own wear & tear whilst working towards improvement. I have seriously trained in Ben's methods & have to say I have greatly benefited. This leads me to allowing myself to attempt some of the moves from Bren & wondering if I can maintain some of the range of motion that is now my main concern. My channel on UA-cam is an attempt to explain how to "hang in there" when the forces of nature try to take their toll.
Hey Bren, I took his Zero Knee program for a few months, and it really helped me out. I had been walking around with nagging injuries from martial arts and years of improper workouts - lots of pulled muscles, tight muscles, sciatica and both kneecaps that were dislocated from Muay Thai. I got all these injuries in my early twenties lol. After a month of his program, I was able to do a 25 rep Sissy Squat set. Before I started, I couldn't even do two quarter reps without incredible pain - it really works, I find the backwards walking is fundamentally important in body health, I even got my 63-year-old mother to do some workouts with me and she got improvement from them. I think his Zero program is a great re-hab / pre-hab protocol and his Dense and Standards take the Zero program to its ultimate conclusion. While simple and not a complete total workout, they are really useful for just about anyone.
Your ending conclusion is fair and I agree with it, though I'd rate him a 4/5 stars just from personal bias.
Alight guys. thoughts? Plan is to do the volume, then programming for movers videos next. Probably separately, but maybe together- what do you guys want to see in those, or any other videos you'd like to see?
Very interested in seeing those videos!. Also, could you do a video showing how to progress toward more advanced flexibility?. Like going from beginner to loaded
i would like a video like that about atlean x
I really want to see a showcase of your favorite movement games that you have come across! I've started playing Ido's Stick Game with my friends and we all love it! We made a variation that uses a ball instead. Movement games that involve partners are my favorite way to move and I'd love to know some of YOUR favorite games after spending so much time involved in the movement community :)
Thanks for all your work, your content is invaluable!
Those topics are great! They will be great to have it separately, they have lot of information to talk in both of them. How to create macrocycles will be interesting too (In my opinion the 8-12 weeks programs are more mesocycles).
Thanks for your time and knowledge
How intertwined are the two topics? Do you have to refer to the other while discussing one a lot? If so, I prefer one video. If not, I prefer two videos (plus it's better for the algorithm as it sees you're more active).
I would love to see a zoom/facetime or in person of you talking back and forth with Ben, asking him questions and seeing his responses, almost a podcast style :)
I work as personal trainer myself. In my opinion your content is most honest and I agree with pretty much everything you are saying. I hope your channel will grow fast.
Hey Bren, I appreciate what you’ve provided here. After suffering a painful left knee injury last December, I came across Ben’s videos while looking for various therapy methods for rehabilitation. I had a therapist who put me on the road to recovery, but I felt there’s no such thing as TMI. There was NO WAY I was going to be able to execute some of his exercises.. 1) I needed to get somewhat back to “normal”, first.. and 2), I’m 68 years old. However, what he did provide was incredible inspiration, and encouragement, and I still watch his videos. I’m glad you provided this critique because, as I said, there’s no such thing as TMI. Back in my more frequent gym workout days, I MADE Butt-to-the-floor squats my favorite exercise (I hated squats for the longest time), and right now I’m working on getting back to that because I feel that having stronger quads will help protect my knees. I have also started regular bicycle rides to strengthen my legs. If anyone is suffering from knee injury I must say, if you can exercise through mild pain/discomfort, keep at it, you’ll find everyday it becomes easier and easier. Once again - THANKS - for providing this content. To Strength!
In case you have a gym with standing bycicles or any of that sort, I can highly recommend riding it backwards for cardio - targets your quads a lot more, and my knees always feel awesome afterwards!
knees over toes guy is phenomenal, the knowledge he's acquired over the course of his decade-long journey of study and practice to bring his surgically repaired knee back to health is simply amazing ..so inspiring is Ben Patrick that others have benefited greatly from the knowledge and wisdom ....his sincerity and positivity inspires those who were seeking help, like myself, who was unable to walk across a field a year ago without buckling over in hip pain, and who is now enjoying a quality of life again at 63, that I feared was not possible because that pain is gone a year later thanks to Ben Patricks program....just love him to death ...thank you Ben for helping me avoid hip surgery ....when in pain ATM..always thing muscles first ..💯💓
Is there anything to do we can do to actually fix a herniated disk?
40:20 can you remember, where Quinn Henoch said this? Couldn´t find it, was it in a video or blogpost? Was he referencing a study? Really curious about this part
Man this channel is absolute gold. It took me a month to watch this video in full but stuff that I learn on this channel is just out of this world. TRUTH WILL PREVAIL
I'd like a link to the review you mentioned in regards to pain management strategies (i.e. icing, compression, elevation)
Excellent. If there's enough interest here (like this comment) I'd love to do a full video on this too. The review I wrote was on icing and cryotherapy in particular, but much of the research on icing is done within the setting of the RICE protocol.
Yeah, me too.
I don't even need to watch this video because I know for a fact that what he says is true. I'm a walking, living breathing example of this. My knees were completely wrecked from.years of sport and bad bio mechanics. I had less the 90 degrees of flexion on my left knee and my right knee was pretty average. I've been following his exercises to a tee for 4 months and can already see massive improvements. He is a genius.
Lol
Congratulations on that win! kneesovertoes is a maestro, i agree. Just one note, most of the comments on what's been proved get a ver positive reinforcement here, this is not a testosterone test review. The man is actually honest and transparent with his knowledge. "less knee-pain, more knee-ability" ;)
Tell us exactly what your physiological structural compromise was before spouting this. I have had an ACL recon, a meniscus repair and a meniscectomy all at different stages and i struggle with knee pain, i have a real tangible issue here. I’m sceptical and it’s made worse by people like you claiming he has THE answer without actually stating what exactly you’ve rehabilitated from….
@@JohnDoe-12
Instead of 'spouting' from your fingertips like you're seriously questioning someone's feedback because you're looking for a definite positive answer before you commit yourself to trying, why don't you fully research a small knee of toes routine and stick to it, then see if it makes a positive impact, then build on it if it does work!
If you're not willing to try anything without a 100% guarantee, then fine, feel sorry for yourself and do nothing! 🤷🏻♂️
@@JohnDoe-12 ACL and meniscus surgery on the left knee here, did all my rehab on my own, I'm now squatting my bodyweight with no pain. Included quite a few of the KOTG's advice in my rehab, still do. The ATG split squat and Nordic curls are gold for knee health.
Amazing video and debunk of the dogma of perfect form and Controlling language , THANK YOU SO MUCH for those insights , information and your great enhancing energy Bren ! Long life to you !
Thanks for the review Bren I really appreciate your effort!
44:58 that sounds very interesting, could you do a video on it? Or maybe on different breathing techniques/habits in general ?
Bren, I hear you talk about spine flexion in deadlift...what you think about prof Stuart Mcgill aproach to spine rehabilitation and "always neutral spine"?
Just had a thought: have you ever done a review of the Foundation Training method?
Could you explain further what you mean at the one hour and one minute mark? About how just training the physical attributes is myopic. I don’t fully understand what you mean by this. Are you refering to within the s and c realm there can be more done or are you saying athletes should be more focused on skill of their sport? Love the video!
A little question: Regarding the comment that any load is sufficient to strengthen joints etc when you respnded to the ATG Split squat as necessary to strengthen these. I would think intuitively that load from different angles and position would give different access to loading of particular part of knee joint.
I don't understand the full scope of the SAID principle, but I would think that this also would apply for strengthening of joints.
Load is of course important, but different vectors should have different implications for the same joint, and I would really loved to understand the depth of this difference. What's your take om using different ranges for strengthening of joints?
Thanks for making this KOT review. Doing his Zero progam jacked my knee. It was doing a Patrick Step variation he suggests in that program. I was doing fine with the rest of the leg exercises in Zero. It's probably a great exercise for most people, but I don't like that he says there are no outliers.
True, it’s a little too solves all for me, although I’m incorporating backward sledding and the reverse step up over a slow progression
Ben - and the backwards deadmill - was instrumental in me getting rid of knee pain, getting back into running, and most surprisingly started spontaneously sprinting again over a decade after I'd given up running. There's a lot I wish was different however, especially for someone who can really heal people like my parents age who are getting knee replacements and hearing shit like there cartilage is gone (bone on bone) and need a simple place to start. For that reason I wish there were more visible examples on Bens program and within the movement world of fat, overweight, old, pain ridden bodies working within a pain free program to reclaim their bodies.
The people who need the most help dont have any examples of people like them that they can identify with and say "that could be me"; only ripped young bodies and the occasional aged eccentric also ripped movement gurus.
Very thorough and mindful review on Kneesovertoesguy.
Ive been very skeptical of the whole fitness or rehab industry. Only a few channels I follow and respect and gotta say man… you earned my follow and respect.
I have a B.S. in Kinesiology and am a personal trainer. I see a lot of people on youtube claim studies or name them, but very few know how to interpret them. And you do, felt like I was back in class doing research papers as I heard you speak and clarify.
Its a breath of fresh air.
Thanks for doing these brother! 💪🏼
Im loving incorporating a lot of his suggestions. Feels very therapeutic. Hes a rambler tho lol !! I had to watch several review videos to get more step by step, concise explanations of how to do the workouts for myself at home.
I'd be interested in seeing a video, by you, which reviews the most common BJJ warm-up exercises and their effectiveness/practicality for improving ability to assume the positions, and make the motions needed for Jiu Jitsu/grappling, vs. a possible alternative group of warm ups that you think might or should be done to help teach BJJ.
oooh. interesting idea.
Can you do a similar video on the Goata movement?
I just need to know how to get my quads to not feel so tight and in pain all the time . Combat sports athlete sp very heavy leg use from jiu jitsu . This happened like out of nowhere past 3 years . Im convinced cork rolling and lacrosse ball stuff might be making it worse even though helps relieve pain in the moments after . Idk . I'm currently using bens protocols was hoping it may help
does any movement not hurt? like lunges or hindu squats?
@@levirognejensen1745 its not painful like in a way that I cannot perform those movements its just major tightness and discomfort afterwards and throughout the day and no amount of foam /cork rolling, tim tam high powered massaging, or stretching seems to help 😕. Not yet anyway 🤷
Hey man, check out my MOVERS method video, I think it will really help you
I would definitely recommend Ben's method for knees. Knee pain I'd experienced for 15 years went away after doing his Zero program for a few months. I've read countless comments of people with the same experience. Definitely worth a shot at least.
What would be the benefit of performing Nordic curls if the hamstrings are already strong from squats and deadlifts? Do both functions of a muscle have to be trained for optimal development?
Yes, from a size perspective regional hypertrophy occurs depending on the function worked.
From a function/injury perspective, nordic curls train the hamstring in a highly lengthened position and therefore provide additional resilience + strength in those ranges.
What do you of think Kelly Starrett's videos? I started doing his End Range Isometrics For Hip Extension Pt 1 video last week and no problems so far.
I know Im hella late on this but any idea if you can show some of the sources you cite or even how you find them? Im having trouble building my knowledge
Got any solution for bursitis of the knee&elbow? I started BJJ recently, and made a mistake of doing drills on the wooden floor. Now my bursas are sensitive and I cannot go to class
It would be nice an analysis of calimove
How old were you when you first started training under idos team ?
I like this format. Extremely high quality educational content from our friendly neighborhood PainScienceAndOptimalTheoryGuy
Thanks Jim! Science all the way.
It would be really great to have you both in a video where you interviewed him about his ATG System.
Your patience to analyse everything is unbelievable! :p
About the RICE method, ice is good for pain true, but doesn't it slow down the healing process, since it lessens inflammation, and inflammation is crucial for the healing process?
It doesn’t actually seem so- I’ll go into more detail hopefully soon
Hi Bren, at around 40 min you mention the number of minutes required to change the architecture of muscle tissue through static streatching but you say 20 min per week at the beginning and then per day, which one is it? Olso I would appriciate to hear your thoughs on the work of andreo spina whom I'm sure you've heard of. Thanks again, great quality content
Hey Leo, the numbers I go by are 20 min per muscle group per day to lengthen the physical structure of the muscles, but just 5-10min per muscle group per week to maximize increases in flexibility in a meta review of a whole bunch of 8-12 week studies.
@@BrenTeachesMovement thank you
34:52 i thought it was obvious to everyone that doing nordics or concrete would be not good, and even if you didnt do it while slamming your knees into the floor it would still hurt like a bitch
27:07 huh? if you deadlifted a heavy weight until failure and then tried to force yourself through 30 more reps, that clearly would be generally dangerous, to laugh and say, no, you'd be fine, um... ? When your deadlift ability starts to fail it usually involves mid spine fatigue, it's important that all our muscles are equally up to the task when working a muscle group exercise.
I think the point is that it's about relative difficulty rather than absolute weight. A small weight can still be dangerous if applied in a certain way (in this video e.g. finger lifting)
great video !! can you make a review about Lee weiland
On his point about the exersize being safer he said "once you hit failure deadlifting, imagine doing 30 more reps, you would risk injuring yourself"
You very confidently disagree with this point, saying no, your back would be fine, there's *nothing about a heavier load that means a higher risk of injury*" which seems like a very broad generalizations in reference to his specific deadlift example but i digress.
I don't see how this could be the case. Injuries from deadlifting is very common when it comes to all weight lifting injuries.There's so many things that could go wrong if you aren't mindful about form, which muscles you're activating, hinging properly, etc. If someone goes to failure, then muscle their way through 30 more reps, how would it not make sense that the risk of injury goes up? I imagine a lot of people would start compensating more, and the form would not remain consistent if they're continuously straining, giving everything they've got over and over again after already deadlifting passed muscle failure.
Maybe for you, it makes sense that you specifically wouldn't have higher risk of injury, but I don't think he's adressing the top 0.1% of people in mobility knowledge, who are guaranteed to repeatedly deadlift to failure over and over again with peak form. I think he's addressing the other 99.99% of the audience, who would have a high risk of injuring themselves if they tried such a thing lol. A large portion of his audience are already injured, in pain, and looking to get better.
You have to keep in mind, if your muscles can’t handle the load of a deadlift at any point you can simply drop it, the ability to do 30 reps after failure implies if not defines low intensity, and this is also in comparison to other exercises. In addition, long story short the things you mention have no legitimate scientific basis to effect injury risk (have never had any evidence for them).
Check out feldenkrais method
I am wondering why you have two watches on ?
I love Bens stuff his program helped to get my knees back to 100% and beyond !
His program can definitely work for a lot of people if you follow properly
right wrist is a whoop strap!
Do you believe that muscles can actually get longer? I've read some stuff about longitudinal hypertrophy through full range of motion strength training, and I'm not sure if that's technically lengthening muscle by adding satellite cells to the end or not.
I believe so, yes, but haven't looked into it myself yet. My source here is Quinn Henoch, who I think is very reliable. if anyone looks into this and can find any primary research, please leave it here!
48:43 "Coach of this level" ? He's just some guy that studied under Charles. If anything, he's turning into a mild guru for the knees
Would love if you critique GMB Fitness (the guys that introduced me to locomotion, they seem to reference a lot of the pain science that you mention in the video, and they're insanely good at customer service and overall business integrity) and also Vahva fitness (These guys echo the same foundational ideas that Ido portal preaches and also even GMB fitness, however they also advocate for more ancient and traditional modalities e.g. QiGong, I honestly would love to hear your thoughts about them.)
So i searched your videos for one that would help prevent and cure knee injury. I found none, do you only make videos to criticize other couches? or do you actually offer some help?
Hey David, check out my recent video on ‘how to heal any injury’ or the older one ‘a smarter approach to pain and injuries’. You must have missed them ;)
Your ad says your online coaching is now open. I’m so excited… I paused the video to sign up, but your website still shows online coaching is closed. 😞
Ahaha. Don’t worry Kelly, that page is actually dated and we still have spots open :)
Hey Bren, good review, although I feel like a lot of the negative stuff you mention about him is just random marketing stuff he spoke about (like him saying he could make it impossible to get injuries in bball) or how some of his stuff isn't backed by science. But his actual workouts work and science can't keep up with everything. So, a 3.5 is kind of low. Especially considering how many people copy him.
Thanks man. Yes, but marketing or no, if I ever get to a point in my career where I don't take some serious points off for a popular health and fitness figure making public and blatantly false claims like this, please slap me. Also, as I mentioned, he is behind the science in a number of areas as well.
@@BrenTeachesMovement I think you're losing the forest for the trees.
The fact is, he is helping tens of millions of people improve their mobility. What's more important - helping people or getting the facts right? I would rather take a Ben over someone who is always 100% accurate with their statistics but only reaches a few thousand people because they simply aren't an effective communicator.
@@SolarJakee your profile pic looks like it's some scientology-based drawing
Ben method is a great way to start the journey. It's simple seem logical and got me out of a jamb. Now that I have progressed and started to learn more I still appreciate his techniques and use a lot of them but from my new perspective. It worked well for me.
wow i didnt expected a 3,5/5 stars i thought u will giv him 4 or maybe even 4,5 stars but i can understand ur explenation about the pain part from KOT cause there was almost none and the same goes for the skill component andd thank u for that video bro, u gave some different perspective about ben. Thank u for ur effort
🙏
Yeah. Honestly he would have if he didn't say that he could 'easily make it physically impossible to get injured playing basketball', but given that he did say that, and the whole thing with science and misreading studies, I think the 3.5 is well earned but generous.
@@BrenTeachesMovement id say he is a 3.5 for the population but a 1.5 for athletes
As someone who has done 1x bodyweight in a Jefferson curl, and also as someone who ends up with some bend in the deadlift when I get close to 2x+, I don’t really see the problem with losing the straight back in these positions, as I kind of just assumed it was a bit of loss of perfect form from the heavier weights and not really problematic in any way. Similar to losing some in anything as you get super stressed / tired out by the movement.
Sorry if it wasn't clear, my point was that not only is there no real evidence to support the idea that lumbar flexion isn't a problem or mistake, that study in elite powerlifters was evidence that it may even be proper technique.
Personally, I still cue people to arch if they can, but I always keep this in mind.
Hey Bren, as per usual phenomenal content man as an aspiring athlete I love seeing people who are so knowledgeable, passionate and enthusiastic but at the same time lead from the front and are open minded. Especially the philosophy of having balance and combining every type of movement, so that we don't become specialists(I also follow Ido, but being 15 and broke doesn't allow me to study under him🤣) I just wanted to say that you are an inspiration.
bro said "its good marketing" like ben patrick is making money from people walking backwards. "if you walk backwards, i get 50 dollars every steps but its good for your knees". good marketing is hilarious. already to a good start on this channel.
Excited to watch this fully. Kudos for such an in depth piece.
Thanks Harvey!
It’s funny cause in kung fu training it’s stressed to avoid having your knees over toes lol
This may be the best (IE most thorough, informative, unbiased, respectful, science-based) review I have ever seen.
Kudos.
Thanks Corey! High praise man :)
So, after all this, he and his method are legit or dangerous?
Yes the methods are legit.
Wow, really appreciate the work and thought that went into this review. Very well done
Much appreciated Petie Project!
Thank you Bren, your view is always valuable. In regards with Ben's lack of references, he doesn't need any. He uses logic which is above any scientific research. An imbalance or weakness will eventually cause injury. When you strike, jump, run etc a very high percentage of the force you apply will return to your body. Your muscles and tendons as a unit will absorb the forces and will protect your joints. If a muscle is not doing it's job a percentage of this energy will either leak into the joints or another muscle will have to take the burden to compensate.(for years after 10 minutes of running I had a pain in the outer side of my left ankle. after training tibialis, running barefoot and working on my hip stability it completely disappeared within 2 months. I had sprained this ankle several times in the past) The problem with waiting a study in order to accept something as a truth is that we are missing out valuable knowledge that can make us happy, be it a movement advise or plant medicines. Also it has created a society where people always look externally when they need knowledge instead of looking into the source, which is their own experience of body and mind.(I don't believe you are one of those people though at all). It's painful because people disregard any information without studies and ironically this may be the solution to their problems.
“He doesn’t need any”
-average koolaid enjoyer
Hey Jonny, thanks for the kind words and adding your perspective here. I disagree fairly heavily with the point I believe you are making for the most part- I'll cover a few separate areas as someone very close to me made a similar argument not long ago.
1) For KOTG in particular, he occasionally quotes specific research (e.g. "you're 4x more likely to injure your hamstring if you have an ankle injury"). I recognize that it's more effort to go through and cite the studies you referenced, but it's very minimal compared to actually reading them, and gives people a chance to look into the foundation of the claims you're making. For instance, in the case of the above, he actually almost completely misread the study, as I went through in the video. However, in another case (talking about the importance of the hip flexors for sprinting) When I dug out the references, It was actually very compelling, and turns out it seems I was the one in the wrong.
2) I think it's important to separate the ideas, concepts, and paradigms of science from the individual studies, and the way research is typically used or associated with. Individual studies are notoriously bad. So bad that Stanford literally created an entire department dedicated to reproducing research, and the typical number mentioned is horrifying: only ~50% of studies are reproducible. and if only 50% are reproducible, we could only guess how low their accuracy may be in terms of their theories and hypotheses.
That said, science on the whole, is beautiful, wonderous, and in my eyes, the foundation of human development. and science isn't limited to just the quantitative stuff you're probably aware of- in the last few decades huge advances have been made in the field of qualitative research- an area I think you would enjoy looking into. Science is simply the idea and practice of testing what we think we know, and recognizing more often than not that we were wrong. individual studies and scientists may point us forwards, backwards, or sideways, but on the whole, we over time learn from our mistakes, and the field advances forward.
For instance, you mentioned plant medicines. there's a large number of psychoactive plants that are starting to get a lot of attention for a number of conditions: Psilocybin, Marijuana, Ayahuasca, etc., and regardless of any current politics or perspectives, if these plants have a benefit for any condition we can look at, quantitatively OR qualitatively, science will show and support it. For instance, many people have no idea that aspirin was developed from the bark of the white willow tree in the 1800's. Almost of the research I did at Stanford was on the many awesome effects (anti cancer, anti-alzheimers, etc.) of Celastrol, a small molecule which is the most active in the thunder god vine, a plant commonly used for hundreds of years in traditional Chinese medicine.
On the flip side, it was science that showed us how harmful cigarettes and smoking was, and created the foundation to change the culture, fight and restrict a multi billion dollar industry and save, at this point, many thousands of lives.
3) Finally, I understand your point about people disregarding things that haven't been backed up by science. I offer to you first that science should not restrict creativity or art. Second, I'm not generally a fan of waiting for studies of a particular thing before trying it on a personal level, however, there's a level of foundational literature in every area that's going to tell you if something's likely to be a good idea or not. We all have limited time, energy, and money, and in general I personally don't want to be wasting time trying things that are already contradicted by previous research, when there's an infinity of things to try. In fact, just trying things for yourself and seeing if they work for you is a practice of science as well- albeit for most people a very weak one.
P.S. I'm going to make a sweeping and harsh generalization here: I believe most if not all figures in the health, fitness, and movement spaces who disregard, distrust, or worst of all, openly reject science do so only because 1) they don't understand it or 2) science has, would, and will continue to shred their life's work into scraps of the placebo effect. If you're doing anything real and truly positive, the science will (eventually) always support you.
Cheers man, and may the science be with you ;).
Thank you very much for taking the time to reply Bren. You definitely made me think a lot.
You are right, if you mention a study you need to have a reference for it. What I wanted to focus on is that sometimes logic itself is enough for accepting an idea, without asking for a specific study to back it up . Ben says that you need to strengthen your muscles in the long and short range and training both agonist and antagonist muscle in every joint. That makes sense and those were amongst the first things I realised when started observing my body in motion. The ability to observe is the foundation of science, this is how science starts and we need to practice it because we all have this ability. A lot of people purely reproduce thoughts all their life instead of producing it.
I believe science is important but it needs the right orientation, which is finding applications to relief physical-psychological pain and make people happy. Without that it is lost or even dangerous. Also at least in England,in medical schools they don't even mention fasting as a therapeutic tool. But it's a powerful one! In terms of aspirin, scientist discovered,(thank you science :-))Neatherdal knew the trick 40000, please see the link.www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-39205530
For Neatherdal it was just experience and observation back then, they wouldn't wait a study to approve, in order to get relief. People today just look for a study and their judgement weakens.
Also I am sure you have met a lot of people who have chronic joint pain, went to a physiotherapist who applied their university teachings, they took well studied drugs and nothing happened. I was one of them when suffering with my neck. Eventually I realised that I have to treat it. I spent hours per day just moving my neck and instead of purely asking why is it in pain, I also asked how does it work? This was key to understand it and fix it. also I was let down by well studied psychiatric medication that harmed my body and counselling which made me live from my neck and above and ignore how a stiff spine can ruin your mood. Movement mainly, plenty of meditation/self exploration and plant medicines secondly helped to overcome my problems. Sometimes you have no other option than relying on yourself. I know people don't have time but in my opinion there is nothing more important than knowing your self and overcoming pain. What I wanted to say is that people don't need science necessarily to solve your problems(if you have it why not), as you have the tools to solve it. also one needs to practice logic before accepting an idea.
In regards with time and money, trying your self is free. It takes time but what is more important and interesting than knowing your body and mind? It's worth the time. You become happier and you share the feel good tips with others. You know that better than me!
Science is important as well as experience, but sometimes life is hard and some people may not have any help. one can still find the solution though. It doesn't mean that modern humans are happier than Neatherdal were because we have science and complex languages. Thanks again brother and I am grateful for the knowledge you share.
@@jonnyardan8446 I agree with you wholeheartedly. The studies are what led physiotherapy to the abysmal point its in currently.
If we'd waited for the research to be done on Ben's KOT programs, many millions of people would be foregoing their own health for the sake of sticking to "the science".
Not everything in life needs a double-blinded, placebo-controlled study to prove its effectiveness; especially when it's something that is free (as all Ben's content is) and with little to no risk (I am yet to hear a story of someone injuring themselves attempting KOT exercises).
absolute quality bro 🙏
Thank you :)
I think what Ben is really great at is communicating his ideas simply and effectively.
Sure, sometimes the nuances may be lost and claims may be on the bold side, but I think that is 100% worth it given that he has reached easily tens if not hundreds of millions of people by now. And at the end of the day, his programs are clearly effective for most people.
The point about him not going beyond physical attributes really feels like nit-picking. I'd assume that Ben - and anyone really - would rather leave the skill acquisition side to the experts in their respective fields. His area is mobility and joint health, and as far as I can tell he is helping more people in those areas than anyone else in the world by quite a wide margin.
Has he done and said everything perfectly? Certainly not. But he has presented his ideas and packaged them in such a way that they have helped millions of people improve their lives and he puts all of his content out there for free (so the framing as some of his content being "marketing speak" seems a bit disingenuous, especially given you have some of your content behind a paywall). That fact, to me, easily outweighs any occasions where he uses hyperbole or doesn't cite statistics with 100% accuracy.
EDIT: I would like to add (as I pointed out in another comment - sorry for flooding you with comments by the way) that I think the 3.5 stars is unfair and borderline irresponsible. When I say irresponsible, I mean that you could easily dissuade people from giving his programs a try (because who in their right mind would dedicate several months to a program with a rating of 3.5 stars?). So your video could lead to preventing people from regaining mobility and joint health by not trying a program that (let's be honest) has proven its effectiveness more than any single study could have.
I'm not sure if there's some level of envy involved or you're simply trying to balance out the overly gushing positive reviews by swinging the pendulum in the other direction. But it does not seem to be coming from the same place as Ben, which is to help as many people as possible improve their mobility.
Hey Jake, Thanks for engaging with me here. I definitely agree, Ben's greatest strength is his ability to communicate simply, effectively, and I would add, passionately.
I think ben actually has much more of his content behind a paywall than I do- mine is just directly visible through UA-cam channel memberships, his is through his website where he probably links to the many videos he puts private (unlisted) on his channel. (I didn't do any math, but Many if not most of the videos I watched for this video in December are no longer available on his channel). I put all my best work up here for free for all of you, many of the movements and specific programs are through my channel memberships because that's the easier part if you understand the concepts, and I have to make a living somehow. Seriously, I summarized my book and entire rehab method as best I could in a 30 min video and put it up for free.
It's interesting that it gives you this perception though, I'll take note of that. Popularity doesn't exclude or excuse inaccuracy, and I said this was a brutally honest review, not a 'well he seems to be having a good effect so I'll let it slide' review. What I'll call the science issue It's a hell of a lot more than just not citing statistics with 100% accuracy as well, but I'll also remind you that I did give him 4.5/5 for exercise design.
I really did mean it when I said this was a really strict and harsh scale- I'm holding him to the highest standard as a public figure and leader in the field. on a similar scale, I think most fitness coaches would be lucky to get 2 stars, let alone 3.5, and I wouldn't bother talking about them because they wouldn't have any new, interesting, or valuable ideas of their own.
I think you're jumping to some assumptions about my motivations here that you wouldn't if you'd watched any of my other videos.
@@BrenTeachesMovement Thanks for the response Bren. Very reassuring to know you take feedback to heart. And I apologise for assuming your motications.
I didn't realise all of your content was free. From the layout on your channel, it looked like paying subscribers were the kind of inner circle, with full access to your methods. My mistake.
Having been a subscriber on Ben's app, I haven't seen any exercises on there he doesn't show for free on UA-cam or Instagram. The main benefit is the imposed structure and also the feedback on form (you send in videos of your technique) and them answering any of your questions.
I understand your point with it being a harsh scale; I still think the 3.5 star rating could mislead some people into thinking his overall system/program isn't effective, simply because of how people are used star ratings being used. 3.5 stars suggests to me (and I imagine a lot of people) - some decent content, overall pretty average and certainly nothing special.
Given that Ben's methods are pretty much revolutionising the industry and changing countless lives, I don't think that's a fair impression to give people, even if it's not intended that way on your part.
Who are some trainers (if any) you'd give a better rating than 3.5 to by the way?
Thanks again
I'd love to see studies on the efficacy of the exercises Ben promotes. I have to take them with a grain of salt because he's p-hacking when referencing studies, or lacking a necessary understanding, and he's a great salesman.
Me too, but I think studies on specific exercises are generally hard to justify & that every exercise is useful, the question is how useful, and for what (and when).
Great content, Bren!
Thanks Galo!
This will be interesting, as I do supplement KoT
cool
@@BrenTeachesMovement This is a great critique video. I've haven't had an issue with the reasons Ben provided since I chose his program for "lengthening and strengthening". In hindsight it is concerning why he'd present it this way...
I was able to learn front splits in 3 weeks, where I was stagnant prior. Which I did not expect or intend with his program. I'm 18 weeks into his program, and feeling a plateau on the "lengthening" benefits. I'd like to continue with my other movement goals like side splits, backbending, handstands etc. If you have any recommendations I'm all ears.
You are more knowledgeable than I expected. Did you go to school for any specialization or self taught? I know you mentioned you did some classes, but not sure. Personally, I'm trying to change gears in my life, and your expertise in practice and knowledge is in line with what I'm aiming for. Your video on optimization has been huge help.
Thanks for sharing
37:37 I thought the same thing.
Bren: "Rubbing and grinding together - that's not a good thing" - depends on the context
Ahahaha. Touché
I tried a few of his applications for an experiment. I have had knee issues ever since and have never had them before in 42 years.
This is a really good video
Very well done and fair review.
Thanks Rafe!
Thumbs down for the title already - your 'brutally honest' is actually just your best attempt at analysis. But, high levels of honesty for scientific claims should be baked into the cake.
Developed gluteal tendinopathy after doing his 'monkey feet' weighted leg raise exercise, 7 months ago. Somewhat close to having it rehabbed, but I regret ever coming across the guy's stuff. Haven't hit a leg day since February, my legs have atrophied to sticks. Long time (10 years) distance runner, haven't laced up a pair of running shoes since then either. Won't even bother getting into the mental toll this injury has taken on me.
That sucks, hope you recover and get back to where you want to be asap.
I started with a lower back/sacroiliac injury, never managed to have it diagnosed as docs just put me on opiates, benzos and NSAIDs and I was prone for 2 weeks then like a 90yo for several weeks after. Waited for a scan for 3 months until letter came asking me to call to arrange an appointment, by that time I was on the road to fixing myself with calisthenics and intermittent fasting. Only side effect was sore knees and I came across Ben. I do find the tibalis raises and backward sled good exercises for alleviating knee pain and as "prehab" to strengthen the joint and prevent injury.
My main lesson I learned is to strengthen the body in balance i.e. not leave anything out. Prior to my injury I was playing amateur league soccer twice a week plus soccer training and doing no other type of training not even strengthening core or stretching etc and I think favouring kicking with my right foot I developed a hip flexor tear on the right side leading to weakness in that hip and then a SI joint/lumbar injury. Now I train legs x 2, push x 2, pull x 2 and core x 2 every week with short runs and deadmill (backwards sled) every day. At 40yo my body is the the strongest and most stable and balanced it's ever been.
That sucks @paul , sorry to hear that. Hope you get back to full power soon, check out my rehab video if you need any help or ideas with structuring things for yourself
@@rberto3804 Thanks for the response.
I appreciate all the effort you put into these videos and your overall approach. Still focused on educating and empowering the audience .. Love it! Thanks so much. I would love the opportunity to learn from you 1-1.. Prince Matharu
Interesting critique, thanks for that
My pleasure!
We (ie people in general) love a good “counter intuitive” marketing pitch. Just look at all the hype around CrossFit a few years back which was pitched as a counter to “gym bro” culture.
Now we have “Knees Over Toes Guy” saying it’s ok to do something that is generally advised against for knee pain/health.
In both cases, there are valid points being made (ie training in “unconventional” ways may offer some benefits) but in both cases the hype is just that, hype.
Prepare to see “the next big thing” and then another “next big thing” that purportedly upends conventional wisdom in the years to come.
Note: I studied exercise science in college, hold multiple certifications (including CrossFit), and was a trainer/coach for over a decade so with thousands of clients and many more thousands of training hours under my belt I have a bit of perspective on this subject ;)
Something being "counter intuitive" or "the next big thing" doesn't bear any relation on the actual effectiveness of the protocol in question.
I think equally as much, whenever something comes along that takes the industry by storm, there are certain people who gain a sense of superiority from "seeing through the fad" and not "jumping on the bandwagon" like everyone else.
As to KOT actual effectiveness, I don't see how you can call something "just hype", when there are quite literally hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of people publicly saying the protocol has drastically improved their mobility and health, not to mention many scientists and trainers (such as yourself) endorsing them.
bro you spend like 2 seconds talking about the actual stuff hes preaching and the rest is just you ranting about the valsalva maneuver
Check out Conor Harris videos. I personally have a great experience with him and his course. would be interesting to watch simailar video about his approach. He is all about mobility and pain management. very interesting perspective. opposite of what a lot of people are saying and believing. I can say that because of his teaching i can come out of pain on my own, while for the same issues i used to go to a physiotherapy massages etc. KOT tho made my healthy knees hurt.
Hope you used my channel for a resource! Lol
God no lol I would die 😆
I want to know was it just me that got the impression he was selling two things:
1. fixing your knees and keeping them fixed.
2. A blueprint for having elite athletic ability.
I had no knee pain prior and I was sold on this program on the basis that he had found a way to reverse engineer strength in a way that would get me to peak physical performance. Hitting all the right numbers body weight split squat, fancy Nordic etc..but something about his obsession with quads seems to be pissing off my knees.
I never got that he was into quads. He always seems to discuss balance muscle building. I think most talk about calves and forget tibialis
No one is working harder at Knees over toes exercises.
Watch the GOATA guys and tell us what you think!
just did a quick search on them and from what I've seen so far I'm not sure I could tolerate it.
@@BrenTeachesMovement goata is extreme form of nocebo lol. Hate those guys. They're so hyperfocused on biomechanic
@@kat_enj Lol. What's nocebo?
@@lucasgrey9794 its opposite of placebo. Nocebo = negative expectation craete negative outcomes. Goata propagates information that can make some people scared of exercising, their philosophy is like when you will move with bad biomechanics you will ruin your body. If you want to fix it and don't ruin your body come to us goata coaches! Goata pretty much talks about biomechanics and overemphasise importance of it. Biomechanics are important sure. But pain isn't always result of bad biomechanics. Pain is signal in the brain and it can be caused by so many things. And I think improving biomechanics don't work. Your body will always try to do movements the easiest way. Most people would benefit more from standard strenght training then goata.
But it would be funny to see Bren reaction to goata. They're like polar opposite of him.
Check out goata my friend I think you'll be interested.
Recommend watching this about icing:
ua-cam.com/video/0JflPw5FQEY/v-deo.html
You lost me at the very beginning. Muscle imbalances are the very reason for injury.. you said the opposite
Please feel free to cite your sources if you have any. Intuition doesn't count
@@BrenTeachesMovement honestly I though it common knowledge in the physical therapy world that muscle imbalances leads to asymmetrical loading which leads to injury, the same is true for a building or any structure not just the human body. If I had to give a source I would generally do it it and list Charles poliquin and Kelly starett.
@@BrenTeachesMovementBut why do think muscle imbalances specifically **do not** increase the risk of injury? Could you please cite your sources yourself, that'd be new information for me.
So muscle imbalances don't have any negative implications or effect on things like mobility, posture, and form? The other comment mentioned that it was regarded as common knowledge that muscle imbalances could lead to asymmetric loading and injury within the physical therapy world. which I also assumed to be the case
Also, because of the massive range of potential muscle imbalances and the massive range of implications/effects it has on a case by case basis, completely disregarding muscle imbalances as a cause for injury risk was a surprise. Would love to see your sources this intrigues me, thanks!
@@BrenTeachesMovementrelative weakness of one set of glute med/minor is very well known to lead to common knee injuries for runners. the imbalance often arises from inadvertent preferencing of one side during everyday movements like picking things off the floor via a SLDL type of movement. right handers will have comparatively weak left glute med/minor
This hurt my head. He talks about regressing movements to avoid pain all the time. Can you name this channel the straw man channel?
I called it as a saw it. When he gave simple universal rehab prescriptions I called him on it, and when he said to avoid pain (which was somewhat rare) I gave him credit for it. Still, as I discussed that alone is not enough, nor acutely consistent with modern pain/injury/rehab research.
Here’s the nuance I’m calling him on that you didn’t catch. Ben implies through his teaching (mainly through how little he talks about pain), and I’m sure believes himself, that pain isn’t that important because his exercises are structurally and theoretically sound (if performed to his or his coaches standards). But the reality is the opposite- structure wise, the research shows over and over that we don’t know what we’re doing- it’s the pain and changes in pain, as well as pain free function that matter the most.
@@BrenTeachesMovement He mentions pain free movement in literally every video. He talks about the core principles of using pain as a gauge to avoid more injuries. One should decrease load or range of motion to work on rehab or strength training while avoiding pain. Some people can't walk backwards because the load is to much. Ben mentions that and talks about regressing the lift or using assistance to complete the movement pain free. Do you disagree with these core concepts? Ben's issues is many doctors advocate for avoiding movements which means never getting better. You can do a movement without pain by reducing the load or range of motion. Those can be added back as strength improves.
@@jwatson181 These are good concepts that I agree with and I'm glad that you seem to have gotten them from ben's videos. Perhaps they were emphasized more in videos that were unlisted from his channel before I did the review or added afterwards.
@@BrenTeachesMovement That is possible. His short videos can eliminate a lot of this nuance. He has moved a lot of his video onto his paid content list. From a personal experience, his program got me dunking again after a knee injury. I could not even put any weight on it for weeks. I just regressed the movement and focused on zero pain improvement.
@@BrenTeachesMovement Your approach seems really similar after watching your video on recovery.
Eccentric training has been known in sports training so I dont really get why he is all in the hype.
Eccentric training has the purpose to strengthen joints and muscles around the skeleton to lift heavier or absorb force.
He is all marketing in my opinion.
very boring video
Honestly I kinda agree
No matter what you’re saying , he’s helping a billion times more people than you
Thanks for engaging in an intellectual discussion, Jesse. Still, you have a point and I did give him deserved credit for his success in marketing
@@BrenTeachesMovement As you sarcastically alluded to, I was not attempting to have an intellectual conversation. I know enough to not bother with that online. I was only making a point. Ben's own story, as well as the stories of countless people including myself are the difference. You're giving too much weight to the marketing and not enough to the product. I had low back pain for 10 years and have tried it all. Bens program and insights were the difference. If understood and applied properly , his program works, and is helping people.
Great to hear of your success Jesse, and I give weight and credit to that- at the end of the day, that's what it's all about. @25:36
@@BrenTeachesMovement You attributing his success for "marketing" seems very disingenuous. As far as I (and virtually everyone who listens to him) can tell, he is genuinely driven by helping people regain their mobility. If what he was doing was simply marketing, it would not be effective and people would have seen through it by now.
Honestly, some of the things you say as well as the score you gave him make me question what your actual motives are.
People could discover Ben through your video and decide not to try his programs simply because you gave him a 3.5 star rating (because who would go to the effort of following a 3.5 star program for months?). In other words, you could be dissuading people from trying something that is free (unlike much of your content) and that has helped millions of people.
@@jesse3733 i'm late to the party. You're talking about his success. But other than his word, has he ever put any footage of the time when he was injured and was going through a rehab or do we have to believe him because he's a nice guy?
I've discovered a new herb in the forest of New Hampshire, which when used makes it physically impossible for the user to get injured playing basketball.
Quickly, start selling it! No need to get the FDA involved, they’ll just cause unnecessary fuss about “side effects” and “peer review”. All hogwash if you ask me
He doesn't say physically impossible. He does say that being strong in those positions can drastically lower the probability of getting injured. That is obviously true. Why did I waste my time on your dumb video?
@@jwatson181 please keep your comments respectful. If you listen closely it is a direct quote of him in a video saying “physically impossible to get hurt playing basketball.”
@James West direct quote @28:28 "I can easily get anyone to knees, shins, that are physically impossible to hurt from playing basketball"