Niall Ferguson’s and Fareed Zakaria’s Summary Debate: The Liberal International Order is Over?
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- Опубліковано 13 вер 2019
- Fareed Zakaria, host of Fareed Zakaria GPS on CNN, and Niall Ferguson, historian and Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution of Stanford University, clashed in a dynamic debate on whether the liberal international order is over. It was moderated by Gillian Tett, US Editor-at-large and Chair of the Editorial Board of the Financial Times.
Zakaria argued that the liberal international order has not lost its vigour, despite the deterioration of the situation in a number of regions. In his view, the huge changes that occurred after 1945 involved more peace, stability and international cooperation between countries around the world in a way that had not happened in history until that point. He made the case for recognising that liberal capitalism has improved the lives of millions of people living in countries that benefitted from global trends, bringing peace and prosperity to previously struggling regions.
Ferguson, on the other hand, stated the world order is not even worth discussing, questioning whether it is “liberal, international, or even an order”. In his opinion, the decline in armed conflict after 1945 was due to the USA's military supremacy, not the existence of the UN and similar organisations. Such international bodies, argued the historian, have in fact helped the most powerful in society obtain greater wealth and power, rather than distribute it more evenly. He also warned even that a new Cold War has already begun, with the USA and China in confrontation in the realm of “cyberspace and beyond.”
Watching at the end of 2021 I’m fairly convinced of who is right after two more years of overwhelming evidence for Ferguson.
2024... even more so...
2025...and even more so
I agree with Fareed about the internet. I can now just ignore CNN, leave the TV off and listen to the Hoover institution with brilliant, realistic people like Niall Ferguson and Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
The moderator doesn’t understand her role. She shouldn’t explain to the audience what the speakers are saying.
Ferguson killing it
No, he's not. The facts are not on his side. He's just an idiot peddling fear.
Fareed is very selective in creating a narrative rather than looking at the situation as a whole
He's the only one stating facts, while Ferguson is fear mongering about non-existent boogeymen.
Fareed: emotions. Ferguson: facts. And, Fareed, the EU was not Europeans coming together for peace. It was France and Germany deciding they can't keep fighting over who rules Europe: let's share the rule of Europe. Germany, you do industry and banks, France, we'll do the philosophy, fund farmers, and add a little bit of fancy food.
They were both bad and both are emotive rather than rational and factual academics.
And lets make money together and make rules to others together
Excellent
Two years to see
But bang on. People forget why people voted Brexit. The cynical creation of a new empire by the greedy with a dead name-EU
hmmmm..... the last 2 years of world events seemed to prove Ferguson right.
A journalist arguing with a historian.
This was meandering. I don't really even know if they know what they were arguing about. Niall basically said the United States provides the order and Fareed said the US was bad and China was great. Weird debate. The "moderator" didn't help things.
Both agree that capitalism is great though. On that there was no difference.
I think we csn all agreed the moderator did not helped in the least.
Fareed lost when he embarked on the personal attacks. The flawed argument irrelevant.
Fareed kept attacking the man, not the point of order. If his arguments failed on his tongue, then that alone was evidence. The only compelling point he made was at the end, and that was not a call to acknowledge facts but to voice your hopes and wishes. Neil had the best of the debate.
PLN Definitely the guy is a schmuck. Implying that Neil would prefer to keep the average Chinese citizen down living on a dollar a day and so many other straw men to win his argument. The guy plays dirty. Also, it’s not about being hopeful, it’s about the cold hard reality that doesn’t care about optimism and hopefulness. Neville Chamberlain hoped that the rise of the Third Reich would be a good thing, until it invaded Poland. When a country is rearming with expeditionary capability, it’s not to maintain the integrity of its borders. China currently has 7 aircraft carriers on the books for completion from 2035 onwards. The USN currently has 5 carriers in its Pacific Fleet: 2 at San Diego, 2 at Bremerton, Washington State, and 1 and Yokosuka, Japan.
Bravo Ferguson, what a pleasure to listen to you! I used to think that Zakaria was the only remaining CNN personality capable of analysis well worth our attention. In this debate, however, he appears to have morphed into "Salon/luxury Communist, coming across a bit manipulative and agitated in the bargain.
Since these are, once again, precarious times, rather than confrontational debate, I wish French philosopher BHL were on this, too, for a three-way conversation. Perhaps the Q is whether Level-Headed Liberal Order is dying and being replaced by Faux, Loony Liberalism. And how can we remain Level-Headed Liberals and Conservative, as necessary, without tight media echo-chambers.
Neil! You make me so proud!!!
These are obviously intelligent people. So why the hell do they think they need to debate this simple question? Make me question the idea of 'intelligence'.
Ferguson is sharp as fuck, a delight when in form
Both are fucking idiots because they claim to know about things they don't know shit about. Case in point, their believe about modi not being liberal.
Fareed's arguments suffer from a lack of accuracy. The 'moderator' is a joke, and a poor one at that.
Not just a lack of accuracy. He is desperately clinging to this "order" for self-preservation because he made himself a prop for that order; he self-appointed himself an "expert" and "elite" in this order. Its his religion. Fareed's perspectives are theoretical, ideological, and system oriented for economics rather than individual orientated for total human flourishing.
He generalized and did not provide specific examples within the proper context.
I've seen the future. . . where vladi goes mediaevil on Fareed's modernism.
I both agree and disagree with the proposition. The International Liberal Order failed at bringing in the rest of the world that never joined the Order in the first place.
I'd prefer Prof. Steve Pinker in the audience to chime in with arguments supported by data and evidence.
If only he actually looked at the data, and didnt say "nietzche caused nazis"
Nice - Fareed Tales.
the moderator is awful
Its 2022 and Niall is right.
Bad moderator!!!!!!!!
These guys always forget Yugoslavia, but that’s when all started. They started. How convenient to forget it, right Fareed?
Not sure about that:: Yugoslavia was the EXCEPTION to the de-communisation of E. Europe (in that it was terrible/violent) and the USSR (except Armenia/Azerb.) It didn't start anything. Since it ended its been peace in that whole area (except Crimea which isn't in the Int'l Order). respectfully, D.A., J.D.,NYC
Jorge Gomez Yugoslavia was attacked to serve one purpose,: to weaken euros, after the war, the reasoning of the attack(the evidence of slaughtering) become weak, but it was too late to save euro, it dropped 30% by the end of the war.
I like the debate but not the numbers at the end, specially the change*. How the hosts didn't welcome Audience to participate in terms of their questions.
8:35 is that demi lavato behind pinker?
The moderator is terrible
And let me tell you Fareed of a Father in China who was working forced labor in the fields of Communist Oppressor Xi ! The family was very hungary.. One day while working in the fields , a young boy took a potatoe from the ground and put it in his pocket. A chinese military guard saw the young boy do it. The guard yanked the young boy from the field and in the presence of the forced laborers working along side the young boy , the guard called the boys father forward. The Father plead for the boys life before the guard. He explained that there were many in his family and that they did not have enpogh to feed them all , so the food was rationed. He explained that his son acted out of hunger pangs and not to intentionally disobey the law. The guard handed the father a gun and put the gun up to the young boys head. The guard told the Father to kill his son or the guard would kill the whole family. The Father cried and plead convulsively with the guard to no avail. The Father in torment ultimately pulled the trigger killing his son. Then the guard forced the Father to dig the grave of his son and bury him. Afterwords the father went out of his mind and his conscience could no longer bare the horror he inflicted on his son. The Father died 3 days later lying in the dirt of his humble home , from a broken heart. This happens daily in the Xi dictatorship of China.
You in the NWO.. International Liberal World Order..
You are Opening the door for an International Leader to step in and take total Control of this World. He will not be kind. He will tickle your Liberal ear and you will believe his lies and when he is given power.. HE WILL RULE OVER THE EARTH AND CREATE SUCH HORRORS AS THE WORLD HAS EVER KNOWN BEFORE COMBINED ! There will be no-one who escapes his power.
Billions will die for your Naive notion of Utopia or No-topia..
This is one of most heated debates that I ever see. It looks like Fareed and Ferguson have big clash of personalities. This not change the fact, that it is well worth of hearing.
Nightmare moderator.
GaijinGameNetwork you ain’t kidding
I think she's awesome. Funny, and with good knowledge of each person's point of view.
BlackBeltMonkeySong she also used to be hot, no more...
Haven't had that much fun in a long time....that was awsome!
Two neoliberals (one of whom is under the delusion he's not a neoliberal) arguing with each other over the interpretation of some arcane point of capitalist economics: what is better, liberal capitalism or neoliberal capitalism; Chinese, Russians and Indians living on $1 a day before capitalist globalisation smashed open these countries, freeing them from the horrors of communism and socialism, or $4 a day thanks to the joys of the free market.
This is all about western imperialism versus western neo‐imperialism but with the latter being - in keeping with the woke, virtue signalling, politically correct world in which we live - more multicultural, more inclusive, China and India now muscling their way into what was formerly an exclusively all white gentleman's club of neocon fascists.
Oh boy, prime time entertainment for IR nerds!
I'm an Indian. I'd just like to counter Fareed's point about the impact of the supposed liberal international order on India. The liberal international order is supposed to have begun post 1945. India went through a bloody partition in 1947. India and Pakistan have fought 3 wars post that. India and China has fought 1 war since. Where was the liberal international order all that while? And the only reason India adopted it's pro market policies post 1991 is because that was the only option left, it had nothing to do with any liberal international order. The liberal international order is a liberal myth.
Well said 🙏🏻
When people talk about a liberal order they are in fact just talking about the hegemony - cultural, economic political, military - of the United States, a hegemony deeply inbued with neo‐conservative political ideology and a theory of classical economics that is straight up neo‐liberal. There is only one new, liberal, international order and that is the one conceived in the boardrooms of US corporations.
What a terrible debate. I like fareed but he is simply wrong to say there has been no territorial acquisitions the last 50 years. Furguson losing hit temper and clearly flipping out over china.
One should take into account also the anthropologist aspects of society instead of reasoning with numbers: like creating opportunities, well being, motivation, cultural aspects, education, vitality, health, leadership, use of talents, cooperation, diversity, geographical and climate aspects,, social welfare, influence of the past e.o
There are much more parameters involved.
One can also ask does growth in gdp always equals well being in general and who benefits from?
Just look once to the faces of the audience. They don't seem to be enthousiastically interested.
I like the way Fareed can use facts, and can also have a look from in between.
That moderator is awful.
I thought I would agree with Niall, but it is much more nuanced than that. Both made good arguments, however on balance the world is a much better place virtually everywhere in the world than when I was born. What counter
system did Niall put forward?
Adhe yane half kimat pea 7 sea 8 software diyea hai AAP apkea yaha kar saketea production
Terrible host.
5 years late, yet thought it was interesting. I am from India. Have lived in the US for over 20 years and the UK for under 4 years. Indeed hilarious Farid thinks an order of sorts that brought Europe together is either international or liberal. Was neither. The bankruptcies one by one of many EU nations is sufficient evidence. Moreover, the rules imposed on these bankrupt EU nations by the economic powerhouses of the EU demonstrate the illiberal nature of that order. As far as rules go, the rules are for the less mighty made up by the mighty.
Farid also makes the fundamental mistake of equating the economic gain that led to a middle class in India or China to some sort of major emancipation the middle class in these two countries has gone through. Absolutely not! He’s also made the same mistake about Poland saying its GDP has risen 5x since it joined the EU. The EU centric order has only been able to put some money into the hands of a total of 500 million middle class people in China and India. But not been able to hand these 500 million the freedom of the sort David Hume and Adam Smith envisioned. That’s because up to this day, the supercilious liberal class that boasts of a liberal order has never really understood what “liberal” means. They’ve never tried to understand liberal from the point of view of the individual, rather they have always meant liberal as in we all must agree with everyone. Sort of like controlling an individual’s thought process, no different than the attitude of leaders such as Xi, Modi or Putin.
Lastly, Farid tends to mix things with the ease of an amateur. Perhaps, with no ulterior motives. Even so, being fully aware of the Monroe doctrine, he equates the inclusion of Ukraine in the EU to its inclusion in NATO!
Of course, Niall Ferguson was the winner hands down! I like that Niall interprets data well. Stats have to be interpreted well for what they are trying to tell us. Merely quoting them is not saying much. For example he correctly points out the incessant turmoils in East and Southeast Asia and in the third world. While Farid points to a chart that merely presents a reducing trend in the number of conflicts in terms of the killings. Think of the Bangladesh war which saw close to 10 million refugees come into India and living in dire circumstances, the genocide in Rwanda in the 1990’s, or the various wars in former Yugoslavia that lasted a decade, to name a few. Farid’s got to be kidding, sitting in the most convenient place in the world and not even able to experience the terrible sufferings of all these people. What’s worse is to clumsily misrepresent this suffering as slight deviations from the intended normal liberal rules based international order and to say that on there has been some gain on balance across the globe. No way! That’s why we got to realize the difference between liberal from the individual’s point of view as opposed to a collective agreement within a group or society.
The supercilious have all got it wrong!
Fareed made a cheese sandwich and Neil a 5 star 3 course meal. Non appetite Fareed!
That moderator though...Veronika Salt
Nial is right
Niall Ferguson has been the new Conservative poster boy. Filled the shoes of William Buckley.
41:50 Oh no he didn't
The moderator is extremely painful.
Had to keep scrolling forward
that moderator man....
FZ presenting a one side perspective. If world is Bipolar/ Tripolar , Human problems solved amicably/ war. If you study 5 Thousand years history when world is unipolar solution comes from Mother Nature. When Mother Nature solves any problem it's a disastrous for Centuries. Solution is Multi Phases of world Economical/political/ geographical.
26:00 Stockholm. Uighurs and people of Hong Kong might have a say here.
vaultsjan so as mainland Chinese people, aren’t they not people?
@@junx1831 Ermh. isnt the official stance that Uighurs and Tibet are also 'mainland' Chinese people?
vaultsjan Because you singled them out first, and why?
Failure is an orphan.
Both of panelist’s points are true
the many smart thoughts here weren't used in good faith recently...
Moderator is terrible.
I love Fareed but Niall wins....
You agree is true. Wtf.
Maybe there is a mix here, the world is more peaceful because they have common goals, they can trade and now they can prosper due to capitalism, but that was possible only because of the military supremacy of the US that provided some stability and allowed that framework to work.
But the nations of the world have been trading with each other since antiquity, long before either the USA or capitalism existed, so the idea that one nation having unrivalled military power has changed things is not, in my opinion, an adequate explanation.
It is now July 2021 and Niall is increasingly right, so the pattern is clear. It is almost a waste of time to even engage in such a debate, or maybe Fareed is just not up to the job. Thank you Niall.
Why does Niall always debate this incoherent sounding, condescending weasel??
Cats out of the bag. Why doesnt somebody sing a story about baby that grew up and conquered the world?
Fareed has disappointed me with his ad hominem and straw man arguments. There is absolutely no doubt that it is the US military might that got us out of the Cold War. I think US will build an even better alliance to win Cold War 2.0.
Ferguson utterly humiliated and destroyed fareed and his american exceptionalism
I've watched so many of these debates I just don't care anymore. Let the world burn and new orders be created from the ashes. Billions die? I'm cool with that. Aging, increasing cynicism, more hatred in me has tired me of all this shit.
When you have a psycho feminist as a ‘moderator’, you get a disaster like this.
Kwasniewski...
Hahaha
What
Fareed clearly won that one
Though he shouldn't have asked Niall if he was a liar . That was not polite
The moderator has to go... Like right now! Two smart men constantly interrupted by stupid jokes and unrelated comments!
The Liberal International Order, in its name proper, has never been there. And the one that Zakaria sang about is also over.
And no one need to feel sorrow about it.
Fareed is by far the most insightful commentator and his background as a Muslim an Indian and an American is unique. Fergie is an anachronism but entertaining
usually, always back to CHINA. try to learn about China people, cuz thats the where you can find the future.
The Chinese people and the Chinese Communist Party dictatorship are two different things. When Chinese people are provided good governance, rule of law, fair courts, stable monetary policies, they succeed. CCP cannot provide any of those things. I hope the CCP is not the future because there is no room for freedom.
@@pauldeffebach8420 totally agree.
It seems like the Chinese people don't have the courage to do something about the CCP.
@@SilvanaDil courage ? When your government can lift hundreds of millions people out of poverty, provide them stable environment to provide roof for your family , food on the table and opportunity to have education. China can become world No2, have its reason. The courage you are talking about you can keep it to yourself.
@@jayyin4588 - The CCP plunged hundreds of millions of people into poverty (during the Cultural Devolution and the Great Leap Backward) and now it wants credit for partially lifting them up. LOL, you fool!
(56:54) "Do you want to vote with your fears or do you want to vote with your hopes?" -Fareed Zakaria. / I totally agree with Zakaria. Ferguzon's anti-China and fear-mongering attitude is violent and wrong.
Fareed doesn't know much about the world he is living in. He seems lost in his ivory tower and come up with such a poor narrative in delivering his points. Ferguson was killing it for sure!
I am a Chinese and I am utterly disgusted by Fareed
Why 🤔