I hope the Organa's had some off world bank account or that money is gone. Seriously though they beat the Empire in Return of the Jedi and in 30 years they didn't make any real headway in changing the universe opinion away from them. The Star Wars universe really likes its fascism.
He was a rebel. If he "retired" he would have been chased/charged as a war criminal under the First Order. You gotta remember the First Order is like the gestapo of the universe. Keyword Rebellion
I really wanted a grey Jedi thing to happen between Kylo and Rey. It made sense considering the trajectory of the saga as a whole (prequels the dark side rises, OT the light side rises, this one could have been in the middle as a way to sort of prevent future conflict). It would have added a more profound way of philosophical thinking that I think audiences would have loved. The best part of Star Wars has always been its underlying teachings about humanity and mythology that audiences connect with instinctively. This film kind of lacked any coherent mythological teaching IMO.
But the trilogy isn't done yet? Perhaps this film just laid the foundations for the whole 'balance' 'grey jedi' thing.That narrative could become clearer after Ep 9?
Patrick B No. The best part about Star Wars, or at least the main reasons it's so popular, are the sights and sounds. I don't think people walked out of Empire Strikes Back in 1980 thinking about the film's underlying teachings about humanity. Rather they were thinking about how cool the light sabre duel between Luke and Darth was.
My thinking is that people don't consciously think about things like that, although they do notice it on a subconscious level. Most people are really bad at explaining why they like things and yes, will default to, "I liked the action and the visuals were awesome." as opposed to telling grandpa about the deep emotional conflicts that resonate with many people in the movie. Not to say the visuals and sound aren't HUGE in Star Wars - they are one of the best things about it. But people don't notice as easily the mythological basis underlying the storytelling although that is exactly the thing which keeps them interested in the plot, despite the often shitty dialogue.
And Jake Deasy, sure, they have time to include what I want, which is why I'll watch the last film, but personally I haven't found much else to like about this trilogy in particular so far which is why I wanted the grey jedi now.
I'm so glad James pointed out the scene shortly after Snoke's death where you see him laying there with the goofiest look on his face. I was almost willing to accept his death even if it felt sudden and wasted but that following scene really shat all over what little we knew of Snoke so far.
James always has the most poignant points in these. Not to say the others don't have great commentary, but goddamn does James just cut to the heart of it all every time. His comment that Star Wars is now just a genre--boom. He right
he is soooo wrong about Rogue One though, of course you care about Gin and her getting into the rebellion, when you've just seen her orphaned as a 6 year old because of the Empire. But then again i see Rogue One as maybe 4th maybe even the 3rd best star wars movie.
I think this is the best movie podcast yet. Every one is arguing about points witch I love not like the other ones where you all agree on one side and James did amazing job telling us strong and weak points in the movie.
Everyone is complaining anout Admiral Akbar, and I think I know why. There was a PERFECTLY suited role for him in this film as a replacement for Laura Dern's character. Nobody actually cares about Akbar, but he could have been cleverly utilized instead of forcing in Laura Dern's character
Could you fucking imagine the outrage if they had ackbars goofy practical effect mask screaming as he hyperjumped into the dreadnaught lmao star wars has always been a little goofy which people always love to forget (like how there was a decent amount of people pissed at ewoks) but that would've absolutely thrown this over the edge of just what the fuck, it would be too ridiculous which is hard to accomplish in the world of star wars. Practical yoda was a great nod but even that was a little jarring at first.
Caleb Fletcher... the fact that you use the term "gender role reversal" says a lot more about you then it does about The Last Jedi. I'm not even sure what the hell it is supposed to mean in this context. Who has been replaced by the opposite sex in Star Wars? Or do you mean that Rey is the Luke character and is female... the horror! Or did you want to say something about "shoving in characters that tend to be female or minority (sometimes both!) into movies for diversity sake without any substance"? No... that would have actually had a point.
Regardless of the flaws, Luke's lightsaber broke so that means Rey has to build another which makes me excited to maybe see another double bladed saber like Maul since Rey likes staffs
Adam and James are culturally refined gentlemen and I respect their thought out opinions greatly because i didn't like the movie and i like it when people vindicate my feelings
Nothing is wrong about not liking the movie, it's when people don't like it for nitpicky reasons like why do the bombs fall down in space? Like really, you're complaining about space physics in Star Wars?
lilbrother21 It's even more annoying because: 1. Bombs were magnetic 2. In the vacuum they had enough momentum to fall directly on the surface 3. TIE bombers in previous movies did the same thing and nobodycomplained
@@lilbrother21 It's an odd thing to put in the movie, I get they're trying to draw allegory to WW2 strategic bombing but it doesn't really make sense. You don't strategically bomb a ship. However it's far from movie-breaking because yeah "Star Wars physics" is just whatever anyway. The movie is a total disaster for many other reasons.
Elyse makes the point that the message was that freedom and agency are important as is hard work. But Rey's character is literally antithetical to that idea as she's barely worked for anything and yet she's apparently insanely powerful and already knows and understands the Jedi teachings with a rubber stamp approval from Yoda.
This is a late reply but she hasn't worked for anything? She had to survive on her own from the age of like 6 on a hostile and horrendous planet for several years. She had to work to survive and to eat.
I enjoy B L E A C H. She really hasn’t though, she clearly was given to the guy who gave her food in her flashbacks. She works for him and gets food for currency. Her just living on a planet with slight abilities to use a staff is not good enough for her strength in the force or her skills with a lightsaber. The problem with Rey is she just hasn’t earned what she has, and the story bends to her even if it defies all logic. It happens several times between the current two films.
@@thesovietdrugdealer.7166 Clearly not super hostile and dangerous as far as star wars goes, its just another star wars desert planet. Its hardy living and shes independent and can take care of herself and stuff from thugs and stuffbut that doesnt automatically make her worthy of being a near full powered jedi by the second movie lol. And like the other guy said, she wasnt on her own lol, she was a planet locked scavenger, millions of people do that in star wars lol. She barely goes through any personal challenges before the final movie. Her parents being worthless (at this point anyway) was mostly a throwaway line that doesnt do anything to really discourage her.
That's why they made her a Palpatine, so they could fill in the blanks of why she's inexplicably so powerful and doesn't struggle with anything. This also completely destroys Elyse's one positive element of her character, so that's unfortunate lol.
For Adams point regarding Kylos plea to Rey at the end asking her to join him; The way I interpreted it was that when Kylo disavowed literally everything and asked Rey to join him, it wasn’t to rule the galaxy. He didn’t explicitly say that. He says that they’ll learn together but they must destroy everything in order to do so. To me, this means that he wants to forge his own destiny and wanted Rey to do it too; he was tired of having the light side and the dark side in Luke and Snoke having total control of his destiny that he’s so desperate for some semblance of control over himself. He was asking for her to be one familiar thing that he can latch onto, and together they can destroy all that is familiar. That was the moment when I realized he might actually be in love with her (aside from the intense sexual tension in that elevator)
In a rough draft of the script, the side plot with the casino followed poe and finn , but the director felt their dynamic was "boring". Because they weren't charming and had great chemistry in the last film or anything.
Subliminal Messages right, if you can't get the scene or dialogue to work, its not the characters, its the fucking writing. Improve from there and you won't have to insert an entirely new token character. The dialogue still doesn't make a lot of sense considering finns backstory.
the fact is it never even should have gotten to that point. The idea that Luke would even CONSIDER for a split second to kill a defenseless pupil is so Out of character it deserves outrage. the Original Series Luke believed Darth Vader could be redeemed and he was established as a bad person. Now youre saying Luke just drops all of that to think of killing someone that MIGHT Turn bad ( you can debate that he immediately decided not to but thats still turning on a LIGHTSABRE against someone you are planning to Kill, Its like pointing a loaded gun at someone then deciding not to shoot them. Doesnt matter how long it lasted thats not something any normal person would do)?..
The one thing you all noticed but don't want to admit is that this movie tries to have it all and ends up having nothing. It couldn't decide what it wanted to be. It tried to shed a layer of old (dead) Star Wars snake skin and underneath it was just new but same looking skin. And to top it of it kills off what shouldn't have been shed(Luke and the force). And no one wants to say it: the movie confirms Rey is a Mary Sue. It's carrying that label proudly at this point.
The point of there being too many cuts and change of pace is a fair one. I liked how TFA was basically linear while TLJ is all over the place. Didn’t stop me from liking the movie though but it definitely could’ve been edited together better. I’m glad JJ is back for Episode IX to hopefully steer the ship back in the right direction for the final movie in this trilogy and hope to see answers to questions that TLJ has created.
If Holdo had told Poe the plan to leave to the old rebel base in cloaked pods, then would Finn and Rose had gone on their mission to Canto Bight and gotten captured to reveal the cloaked pods? I get Holdo was trying to keep Poe in check but Poe was regarded as the best fighter pilot in the galaxy, he just helped coordinate an attack on the Star destroyer, surely Holdo would be able to trust him with the plan to avoid him going on another reckless outburst like he does at the beginning of TLJ with the bombers.
I’m not trying to defend the subplot between Poe and Holdo, but I did think of a few counter arguments to support why Holdo wouldn’t tell Poe her plans. In the same scene where Poe leads the attack on the Dreadnought (and loses a lot of bombers, too), it’s established that as long as Poe thinks he’s doing what’s best for the Resistance, he’ll ignore orders even from Princess Leia herself. Holdo has no reason to believe that Poe would behave himself even if she revealed her plans to him. He could still say “No, you’re wrong,” and do his own thing. I know that ultimately once he finds out what the plan was he agrees, but there was no guarantee that he would. Holdo also had no idea how the First Order was tracking their ships through light speed. Only Finn and Rose speculated (without any real proof) that a device was being used to track them, but it could’ve been a mole on the ship. Perhaps Poe is trustworthy, but can Holdo take that chance (on top of trusting him to follow her plan even if he disagrees with the plan)? What about the other people who are also on the bridge with them? This possibility is why in the military, there is a policy called “need to know,” and for Poe to do his job, he didn’t need to know. Finally, Poe further demonstrates his boneheadedness by jumping to conclusions when he sees that the transport ships are siphoning fuel from the cruiser. He doesn’t ask why, he just assumes Holdo is making a mistake and throws a tantrum, something that is out of line in a military command structure.
Yeah they knew they were being tracked, the question though was "how?" Though considering the plan was to escape to Crait on smaller cloaked transport ships that the First Order wouldn't be scanning for, I don't think Holdo cared how they were being tracked, either. That information didn't pertain to the success of Holdo's plan. Bottom line for me is that Poe, based on his brash and half-cocked attitude, was never in a position to be questioning his superior officer, nor was Holdo beholden to either logic or rules to reveal her plans to her subordinates; it's the nature of a military command structure. That doesn't make the subplot any less contrived for a movie, but at the present time, I don't believe simply telling Poe the plan would have been any gaurantee of preventing a half-baked Canto Bight mission or an attempted mutiny.
The only thing is that everyone knows that Poe is a hothead that will defy his superiors in order to do what he believes is right/correct. Why not put him in the brig or something? Did Holdo really not think that Poe would do something drastic whether it be a mutiny or go and create his own plan to save the ship, if so that's asinine. If Holdo had revealed the plan to Poe and the entire crew, and they would had accepted it because it's somewhat sound in the terms of Star Wars, the entire movie wouldn't be a thing and everyone would be on the world. I understand the subplot is to teach Poe a lesson so he isn't a hothead and learns the chain of command blah blah blah, but still.
BOSK+ Holdo was also holding a bit of a grudge against Po since those bombers he got destroyed were under her command. If anything, both were at fault for the mutiny.
Hard work?? Rey never works hard. She just becomes a Jedi cause the force just gives it to her. Luke may have inherited the force from his father but he still had to work to gain his skills.
Luke is able to use the force pretty easily in A New Hope, his only training was Obi-Wan telling him to "stretch out with your feelings". Then he blocks lasers while blinded.
More like days. Luke's training with Yoda all happens in Empire Strikes Back, right? That's a couple days of training at most, not that it matters because he was using the force before the Jedi training. Hazevamp27 said "She just becomes a Jedi cause the force just gives it to her." But that's what the force is. You are born with it, like Luke and Anakin were.
oontgrad To become a Jedi, years of training are required. Why do you think that the Jedi Order begin to train their members when they're only children and promote them to Jedi Knight when they reach adulthood? You can't master a lightsaber without any practice, you have to learn what powers the Force gives you access to and how to use them.
I'm not sure what your point is. How does any of that justify the criticism of Rey? Speaking of the lightsaber, when does Luke train with it? Unless Yoda trained him off-screen, then his only training was with the floating ball in A New Hope.
The best worst/part of the movie for me was when the Rebel was on that salt planet and touched the white ground and said "it's salt" :D we got it Johnson...it's not Hoth 2.0, tnx
so mineral instantly equals salt? how many god dam minerals are there and the instant they call it a mineral planet your mind goes to salt. It's called world building and congrats to you for making the salt conclusion on your own before them delivering that line. i swear people are shitting on this movie for the smallest of shit just to join a band wagon. To OP's point a lot of movie goers would have thought it was snow or at the least white sand.
They whiffed on the ultimate risk. Rey should've taken Kylo's offer. Other than that, Laura's Dern's admiral, along with being totally unbelievable with zero command presence, is the source of almost all the plot holes in the movie as a result of her total refusal to tell Poe the plan. Every subplot initiated by that baffling decision (Poe's mutiny, casino planet adventure) was pointless. And nothing was learned when it was over, there were no arcs to any characters involved.
Playing devil’s advocate here. She did not want the hot headed, just demoted poe to know critical information about the mission. Does it make sense that she didn’t tell anyone? Probably not, but that might have been the reasoning behind it
Iñaki Loureiro but honestly, the first time she shuts poe down I get, he was a hot head pilot she was putting in his place. But why the second time when she started fueling transports did she not tell Anyone (not just poe, but before he walked into the room) about what they were actually doing? And she could have smacked down poe so hard with some snarky comment about what she was doing to put him in his place, instead she told him to shut up.
Dirk Strider which is why the first time I'm ok with her not telling poe, but when she tells people to start fueling up to get on them and leave, that's when the others should be told, instead of everyone getting onto transport ships thinking they were just blasting off into space.
The minute Poe discovers the actual plan he tells Finn and is responsible for the plan getting known to the First Order killing the majority of the remaining resistance fighters. It is litterally shown, why telling Poe anything is stupid.
The Last Jedi is probably the first time I’ve felt angry and disappointed in a Star Wars movie. This is by far one of my least favorite Star Wars movies.
the prequels were masterpieces comparing to TLJ. Sure the acting was bad but there was a story there that expanded the universe and built on the lore. Episode 7 and 8 (but mostly 8) were like some youtubers banded together and made a well produced fanfiction
All that lore in the prequels... Dexter Jettster's diner The fact a clone army was built because of the Jedi's incompetence. Boba Fett's backstory was told and it was lame as fuck ("what the fuck is a Mandalorian?" - George Lucas) The Trade Federation blocking trade and then being changed to the "separatist" because even Lucas realized how fucking dumb that was. The only worse love story than Twilight known to man Yoda's character ruined! Anakin was never good and always brimming with rage so his redemption at the end of Return feels shallow and no longer earned. Are the Disney ones perfect? Fuck no! But saying the Prequels are a masterpiece compared to anything other than a snuff film for the sole reason that at least no one died is laughable. The Prequels were a mess if you like them for nostalgia reasons then have fun, but it doesn't change the fact that George didn't know how to handle Star Wars either and maybe Disney bought something that nobody knows what to do with and fans only want to see the same shit they've already seen and Rian Johnson had the gall to ask "can we do something different?" and the fans have since said "NO!" Admittingly his attempt was a mess and didn't do it effectively, but I highly doubt Star Wars fans want anything other than what they know and that's the ultimate problem with Star Wars... there are no stories to tell on a larger scale. Some expanded universe stuff works for the diehards, some shows like Clone Wars and Rebels work for kids and casuals, but on a movie scale if you're not getting the same slop you got already you're "disappointed". Besides my point was to merely point out that the Prequels were the most disappointing thing to Star Wars fans, to make a comment ignoring that just to pile on this movie is a foolish use of hyperbolic language. You can hate or be disappointed in both, but to ignore the ones that killed Star Wars and tried at every turn to ruin the original films is just a lame attempt to join the hate on the Disney films (which I would admit aren't good, but they're far superior to the prequels).
The prequels were more about the politics and betrayal that led to the originals. They had a good story. Sorry bud but the new movies are trash and just pander to fans who liked the first three movies. Every single movie in this new trilogy is just going to be a terrible allusion to the old ones.
A lot of fans of the OT dislike TLJ, so it's not like Disney is 100% set on pandering only to them. The problem is they tried so hard to subvert or deconstruct Star Wars instead of making an awesome space opera. No one wanted to see Luke as this washed up loser, or see Finn and Rose go into a stupid casino planet, or see Rey barely struggle and continue to be as interesting as a wet blanket, or see whatever the fuck Holdo was supposed to be, or see Luke milking weird aliens like a creep or see Snoke get killed off in an instant without us knowing why the fuck is anything happening in this goddamn new trilogy/set of films. It's like they set to please anyone BUT Star Wars fans and ended up pissing off A LOT of them. It made a billion dollars (one billion less than TFA, but a billion dollars nonetheless), and that's all that matters to Disney.
So glad you guys had an interesting and constructive discussion about the film instead of just either glowing over it or hating on it. This is why I love the movie podcast.
That's not accurate. John and Bruce both said they enjoyed the film, Elyse seemed to be mixed but seemed more positive than negative, James seemed to be very split (stating there were parts he both absolutely loved and parts he hated), Lawrence was intrigued by aspects but didn't enjoy it overall, and only Adam outright disliked the film. If you break that down just based on their opinions, 33% enjoyed, 33% mixed, and 33% disliked. Yes, the majority of the podcast was spent discussing the flaws of the film, but that's because it's simply more interesting to discuss the flaws of a film than gush for an hour about the cool stuff. Basically, if you talk about stuff you like, you can only say each reason you liked the thing once because whatever you're talking about is something you wouldn't change. But the flaws of the film are things that you wish were different which opens up endless discussion possibilities. Hence the focus on that. Also, discussing the flaws of something does not at all imply hatred. It may imply some degree of disappointment but sometimes not even then. Bruce and John were discussing the flaws with the rest (because it's more interesting as podcast material like I said) but the subtext was that they still enjoyed the film and the flaws that they're talking about didn't bother them much. Elyse and James also had this subtext during parts of the podcast, though sometimes it flipped and you could tell they were actually disappointed with certain aspects (more James than Elyse).
Yeah people normally clap and cheer and shit in US theaters. I remember being in a theater for star wars episode 2 and people literally stood up and cheered/clapped when Yoda started fighting count dooku.
Count yourself lucky, over here the average theater viewer tries to make as much noise as possible during the showing, clapping and whooping at the screen like a knuckle-dragger that sees fire for the first time.
There are so many plot holes in the movie and the editing is so messy that it might as well be called STAR WARS: THE JEDI MESH.. The three resistance protagonist (poe, fynn and rose) f-up so many times that one might think they are first order spies. With one bad decision after another they brought the resistance numbers to a dozen.. The worst part is they were then hailed as heros!! If they were near a real life military, they would have been court-martialed and sent back home
Prof. Himstein they aren’t a real military they are rebel’s -smugglers impoverished civilians and some defectors They don’t have the best training or weapons or the most resources And they are some pretty dank examples or real life armies fucking up way worse (like shooting each other) Idk that’s just how I️ see it your entitled to your opinion I️ like how the movie is different the main characters don’t know what to do ,they fuck up , and they aren’t all badass’
Actually, not communicating your plans to your subordinates while on a ship with them basically invites mutiny, and history shows that time and time again. Admiral Gender Studies's leadership was atrocious; she could have avoided all of that mess by telling Poe the plan.
Mael Sholjhaes I dont disagree with you. But if mutiny brings destruction of your own side, you are going to be charged for treason. No matter what that subplot and most of the movie was sh*t.
Given Poe's poor disciplinary record I was not surprised by the strategy she used. I can't lecture you on military strategies. I would point you to this though: www.cdse.edu/multimedia/need-to-know/need_to_know.pdf
But don't you think it's kinda dumb to halt the progress of a new trilogy to introduce new characters and scenarios so we can have a Saturday morning message?
What about the fact that rey literally never fails. she does everything perfect. fights on part or better kylo ren without any training, overcomes the darkside in the whole thing very easily etc...
1. Rey failed at turning kylo 2. She fails at bringing luke back 3. She got tricked to give herself up??? Those are 3 of basic things she failed at in this movie.
Imagine if it wasn't Laura Dern's character who blew up snoke's ship, but admiral ackbar! That would have been so much better... And then maybe some guy on snoke's ship notices it last moment and goes: it's a trap! holy shit that would have been so much better xD
Imagine if it had been Leia. Sending her character off in a gigantic F U to the First Order. Instead we'll probably get a jarring line about her death in Ep.9's opening crawl.
SeniorFlomas tbh I think he was going to martyr himself originally but the voice actor died before the movie was filmed so a secondary (female empowering) character was added instead) :/ in my head canon, Ackbar made the sacrifice instead. just imagine the endless memes
Luke did not have a good ending. He performed an amazingly powerful act of the force but for what purpose? All he did was provide a short temporary delay for the bad guys. He didn't turn Kylo to be a good guy. He didn't have any physical impact in any way. It was a sad little ending for such a great character.
Why was Admiral Ackbar killed off? Because they wanted Holdo to be in charge. Simple as that. That's how much respect they have for your favorite characters.
Admiral Ackbar was killed off because the actor who played him died unexpectedly shortly before production began, and they felt it would be disrespectful to recast the role.
The Leia thing was really dumb to me, it was the opposite of the problem the prequels had of try to quantify and remove all the mystic nature of the force, but this was just no rules force is anything you want
Italian Sosij yeah I know, but luke trained for two movies and barely could lift rocks, and Leia is an elderly woman floating in space, seems far fetched
Kevin Stoffels It seems like moving yourself in space would be the easiest force ability. There is no other force acting on you in space so you'd basically just be moving a weightless mass
Odd I felt that was really out of place for the movie. It was a random slow motion move in a franchise that hasn't done that before. It was a very matrix like move that felt out of place for me.
well I believe in the lore Luke is supposed to be one of the fastest Jedi's ever. I really enjoyed them doing that (although FUCK YOU FOR HAVING HIM HAVE A BLUE LIGHTSABER)
David Ure, they were giving him jedi speed like someone mentioned above. Fans of rpgs like Knights of the Old Republic are some of the few people that can appreciate that, so they gave them a nugget instead of green lightning like he should have.. Electric Justice
@1:04:43 those CG porges were needed because the real island in ireland has thousands of birds on it that needed to be edited out with CG, so its not a matter of them "doing anything" it was more of a technique to make the most of the adverse filming conditions.
I didnt like space Leia moment it seemed tacky, they could have done something better to show Leias force strength. She looked like the VR guy from the Time magazine.
I think Bruce missed the point, the idea is not to absolve Kylo of his crimes when he lends his hand to Rey. It's a missed opportunity to see something else. The character just basically torn everything that defined him and did nothing to evolve. Not only did he kill his master and vodoo father but by doing so in a way he stated that the death of his father, the destruction of the jedi temple were in vain and mistakes. He turned his back to the First Order just like he turned his back on Luke, the Jedi and the "good guys". He was supposed to flee, to do his own thing, regardless of Rey's decision, start a new while still being a murderer and psycho (perhaps even regroup with the Knights of Ren or become the first on screen Grey Jedi). Instead of that, he just takes Snoke's place and follow the exact same narrative purpose he had: being the plain old cliche baddy of the story. There's no pay off and no complexity. Kylo Ren as a character just lost his chore and panache at that moment.
Nate Idk maybe I noticed it more in this one. But more than a few times I winced at the tropes they were trying to use. I didn't have that same feeling watching the original trilogy or force awakens.
That's weird. I noticed dialogue tropes in all the films. I've come to love it as part of the Star Wars charm only because I was introduced to the off-putting dialogue from the very genesis of the franchise. If it had been newly introduced in the prequels or this third trilogy, it wouldn't have felt right.
Each movie has the occasional gem, like TFA had some bad ass lines, but Star Wars in general has cringe worthy dialogue. Rewatch some of the garbage they put on screen with Jar Jar
The Jedi would take young children into their care and teach them their lifestyle. The First Order would take young children into their care and teach them their lifestyle. That could have been a great parallel into why the Jedi should end. Sady it was missed. Great review discussion though guys!
First Order outright kidnapped children. Jedi never kidnapped, they asked the parents. If parents said no the jedi would apologize and leave, but would try to impress upon them how it could be dangerous for the child.
The Jedi gaslight the parents into giving them the kids, and then won't allow the kids to ever see their parents again. It's basically a less jarring kidnapping.
I keep hearing that The Last Jedi "took risks," but I don't seem to get that. All I saw was a bunch of recycled bits from the original trilogy tied together sloppily with some some new force abilities thrown in to make it seem new.
The idea that, after killing the two darkest men in the Galaxy in Darth Vader and Darth Sidious, and knowing all the knowledge of how balance in the force works, that the last two practicing people, Luke and Leia, didn't have some sort of plan to prepare for when any one force user goes polar opposite of them is proposterous. This intense fear of a kid that doesn't know how dark to be, and the missed opportunity to mold a heart to the light when Luke JUST DID THAT TO HIS FATHER, is inane stupidity in the writing of this movie.
tl;dr if the movie didn't take risks, the masses of the Star Wars fandom would have liked it. Like with TFA. The risks they're talking about are on the larger, director scale; that it wasn't like 5, it wasn't like other star wars films, it isn't what anyone expected. If those risks they took to make this movie different had no pay off that's a failure on the part of the people who took those risks. So, risk=no reward which isn't a good thing. Adam said after Jon that this movie backpedaled it's character arcs, and when it showed the audience potential for something new, it backpedals, which I think is what you're talking about.
I appreciate Adam in this Podcast, the movie changed what star wars means for many now, and while everyone was being relatively soft on critiquing the film, he was honest. Thanks for speaking your mind.
I think the biggest problem to me (I still enjoy it at times) was that I didn't feel like I was watching a Rian Johnson movie, I'm 100% sure that Kathleen Kennedy or someone from Disney said him to change a few things.
From the year 2019 when im re-watching this, Holdo's light speed smash wouldn't have worked because you don't just go really fast. If that's the case, then there would have been so many times when ships would have just smashed into planets. When you go light speed you enter hyper space, and go through that dimension to your new location like a worm hole, if they did it correctly, Holdo would have hit the button, dipped out of the fight, leaving everyone confused as to why there are 10 blue beans in front of them and not the giant ship that was just there, and Holdo would be light years away sitting in the middle of space going "oh yea thats how that works". Role credits
So why didint Yoda ghost up to Snoke on his ship and just strike him with lightning ? Or why didint they lightspeed-Kamikazi the death stars ? thats SUPER effective 1 small ship to one Death Star.
What plot hole ? All the plot holes. If using one ship to destroy a fleet or the death star can be used, it should be used all the time. This film shit on so much in the SW universe its unreal.
Why waste ships ? Its using ships to gain a massive advantage, one unmanned or droid steered ship can obliterate a weapon that destroys planets, its simple maths friend. One ship with a droid can take out a star destroyer with thousands of soldiers who can kill millions of your resistance fighters. The military does these high risk small man OP`s all the time coz if it works IT WORKS OUTand if it does not you only lost a few men ( one transport ship )
CoolKwaz What ? They do use drones just not kamikaze ones, the ones with missiles. There was an outcry because of this, Obama got a load of shit just for that reason. Troops are used tactically to have a presence and to work with the people on the ground after the area has been BOMBED to shit by drones. The next iteration of this is the Boston dynamics robots that will take over troops completely. Because it is better to use a robot ( ship ) than troops on the ground to fight and die in skirmishes that can be completely avoided by the use of something more efficient and something that does not cost lives.
In real life if I took a plane and rammed it into the bad guys base I could probably also destroy said base...why doesn't the military just suicide jets into the enemy all the time, its just one plane right?
On the point of why Kylo hesitated to kill Leia and not Han; I think Ramsey Bolton from Game of Thrones said it best “If you think this has a happy ending you haven’t been paying attention”. I’m referring to that quote in regards to what happened after the original trilogy. There’s no way Han said everything is saved now I’m going to settle down and have a family. That makes no sense. Leia and Han are divorced. I would bet that Han was an absentee father. Couple that with the enormous shadow of his parents, grandparents, and uncle. He had to constantly hear about what a hero Han was while Kylo probably missed him at significant points, you all know the whole Cats in the cradle thing. So I can surmise that he probably didn’t have an easy time hating her as much as he did Han. So for me that hesitation makes sense if I am not wrong about how Kylo grew up.
That thought process does make sense in many ways. I always thought that Kylo was closer to his mom anyway. Plus if you read the book "Leia," she's actually not really liked around the Republic because Darth Vader was her dad. So it makes even more sense that the two kind of band together more because of that fact.
Po's subplot taught him what it means to be a leader and the true value of his soldiers. It also taught him that a victory for the rebellion does not always mean blowing something up and dealing a huge blow to the empire. I think it also set up for Po taking command when Leia dies, which I think should have been in The Last Jedi.
I agree dude, such a dumb point. Did Luke not have agency when he left his home to enter a war? Did Han not have agency when he decided to not be selfish and help destroy the Death Star? Star Wars has always been about achievement
Ben Snod - they made the same mistake that whoever wrote the bible did; you can't have free will and a guiding force at the same time, they are mutually exclusive concepts.
I don't understand how everyone's big take away from The Last Jedi is that anyone can become a Jedi and use the force, and that it's not exclusive to the Skywalker bloodline. There was literally an entire army of force using Jedi in the prequels, and I'm pretty sure only one of them was a Skywalker.
I really appreciated you guys having a measured conversation that really takes a look at both sides. It would be a very easy film to just go in and pick out what you want to see, whether good or bad, so, to see a group of people with varying opinions actually debating is very refreshing.
I followed this channel since the early IG days, and thanks to Uni have been away 2 years. Now I've moved out, and have been bingeing in a big way :D I've missed you guys
I just wished they learned better lessons through their failures. Poe learned never to question authority and put his blind trust in his leaders. Finn learned that everything is ok as long as you let space race horses go even if they are on a planet that will round them up for entertainment again and to not sacrifice yourself to save your friends, there will always be a hologram of Luke Skywalker waiting to save the day and bail you out. Rey learned she's nothing because her parents are (fans reaction) and the only person that cares for her is a genocidal maniac. Rose learned never to leave the engine room because you could have came up with a much easier plan to save the day. If only one ship is being track, why not overload the other ships with as many people as you can and scatter through hyperspace and leave the last one to be sacrificed? Laura Dern learned she could be in a Star Wars movie if she dyed her hair... I mean Admiral Holdo (Had to look it up, totally forgot her name) learned she can be an incompetent leader, but if she sacrifices herself in the end audiences will call her a heroine and all will be forgiven. Wait... but that wasn't good enough for Finn? Is it because he doesn't have purple hair? Luke learned he can cause all the current problems in the galaxy and piss off and force ghost party with Obi-Wan and Yoda and not have to deal with that shit anymore. Ok, I admit it, that's actually a pretty good lesson. Phasma learned not to try to be in Star Wars movies anymore. Hux learned he'll always be second fiddle... always. The Audience learned that Carrie Fisher can have this movie dedicated to her memory, but we all forget that Kenny Baker fucking died too. We just replace R2D2 and keep rolling (pun was totally intended). Kylo Ren learned to never go against the grain again, keep the status quo. The end of this movie really wanted to try to stop him from being the most interesting character in this new series, but had to make me revert back on character development to even attempt to. And Benicio Del Toro learned something about a paycheck... wait was that from this film or all those beer commercials he does?
If someone has mor info then please correct me but I never really thought Star Wars was about having to be a somebody or anything like that: besides Anakin being the chosen one
It was never meant to be about having to be a somebody. It's just that anakin's bloodline is just super strong in the force so anyone from that bloodline is considered special. But thats the point the film is making is that in that universe the people put a lot of pressure on our heroes because of who they are or what their deeds were. When in reality anyone could take their place.
Looking back, Adam and Lawrence were too pedantic, whilst Elyse and Bruce were a bit too forgiving. James on the other hand seemed to look at the movie as a whole in a correct manor. Not discounting what didn’t happen, but what it did, and therefore needed it to be added to make the those aspects were good or plausible due to the situations given and know previously.
I don't why people keep saying that having Rey come from nobody special is somehow a new development or subversive change. The Star Wars films, especially the prequels, are full of Jedi that not only aren't related to Luke, but aren't descended from any other Jedi given that the Jedi order forbade Jedi to have families. It was always that way.
Give us PART TWO!! we want more! Adam, I agree with everything you said. this movie was made for the critics and the trailers. It was made to be praised for breaking paradigms within star wars since the force awakens had the critics saying it was copy paste from the original triology. But fuck the critics! and fuck the economy from all this. make a good movie, thats all. thanks guys :)
The Porgs were not added to the movie for story reasons. The island of Skellig Michael where they filmed happens to be a sanctuary for puffins so they can't shoo them away or anything, and it was easier to slightly alter the puffins than digitally remove them completely.
The only glimmer of hope in this movie for doing things differently was when Kylo asked Rey to forget it all and join him and do something else. Then they immediately went back to the standard operating procedures. He might as well have not said anything at all.
It should have been Leia at the helm of the Cruiser when it hyperspace kamizaze'd. Then they would have already set up Purple Laura Dern's character as a replacement rebel leader for episode 9, and they would have given a meaningful send off to Leia (sacrificing herself to save the tattered remains of the rebels). Now what are they going to do - kill her off-screen in the next movie? CGI her in? Just not mention her?
They said they wouldn't cgi her at all so idk how they will do it for the next movie. That being said she died after all the filming so going back to reshoot some scenes was probably not worth it considering how much she shows up at the end. Would have meant a big rewrite at that point. admiral ackbar would have been a better choice.
My biggest problem was when the hacker dude with the stutter some how knew the secret rebel plan that only the purple haired bitch knew. Meanwhile Poe, Finn and Rose are on a completely separate plan
I think if Ackbar did the lightspeed suicide bomb thing, it would of been so much more epic and gave him a proper death. They wouldn't of needed a pointless character that is only going to die at the end. Literally that Lady could of been replaced with Ackbar and would of been so much better.
Poe's arc ultimately amounts to him realizing that he can't always blow shit up. This is seen during Luke's confrontation with Kylo, and Poe recognizes this as a distraction so they can escape. Instead of instinctively going on the offensive like leading the bombers, he learns to think instead. That said, I agree he should've been reprimanded more than just a demotion for getting those bombers killed. Maybe his relationship with Leia helped, as well as managing to destroy the dreadnaught.
I love what James says at the end. I saw Inception probably 10 different times and had an aha moment every single time until I felt satisfied with what happened. I can definitely see how they would do it to this movie, the one everyone was waiting for.
I find it bizarre that I can agree with what anyone says about this movie to a certain extent. That being said I believe it is bullshit that for the first week this movie had a 97% on rotten tomatoes considering just about everyone can agree there were bad moments in this movie. I just felt like the critics were afraid of giving the star wars a bad review. Not that it matters as I did at least enjoy the movie, but I wouldn't give this any kind of award except maybe most controversial.
You have to remember, the RT score is a reflection of the percentage of critics who gave it a 'thumbs up'. It's not a comment on how good critics felt the movie was. You can see the average score critics assigned the movie in smaller font underneath the RT score. A movie which everyone agrees is a solid 7/10 could have a higher RT score than one in which maybe 80% of watchers felt was 10/10.
The average score for critics was actually about 8.2 (the week of release), the 90%+ was the percent of critics who gave it a fresh rating (which is about a 70 or so).
Just don't read into, or maybe don't even acknowledge critic reviews. They've been as pointless as UA-cam thumbs for a long time, and this movie is an absolute confirmation that they have no motive to give an honest evaluation.
Most of the reviews I've read state that the reviewer had to see the film twice to actually enjoy it. A) that means they're so desperate to like the movie they need to force themselves to like it, and B) you shouldn't have to watch a movie twice to understand and enjoy it. TLJ was all over the place. The pacing was wack and there were too many unfocused subplots.
I watched this a couple days ago with my nine year old nephew. He was whispering "No don't do it!" when Ren was asking Rei to join him. I feel like alot of people think this movie is just for them.
So I’m just going to post this because apparently neither the director, nor a large population of the audience seem to understand this. Why was the Rey’s parents plot line such a disappointment.... because she was just inherently OP as fuck. The whole idea they were pushing about lineage not being important and everyone can be a special snowflake is a solution to a problem that never existed in Star Wars. There were already shit tons of Jedi and other special Characters that existed outside of the Skywalker lineage. Basically 99.999999999% of them. The issue with Rey is that she was REALLY strong in the force just out of fucking nowhere. The way she was set up made it out that there was some underlying reason that would explain this...such as her inheriting some of this power from her family “skywalker, Kenobi etc...”. If her parents are nobody, and she is nobody then she is the Mary Sue of all Mary Sue’s. They shot themselves in the foot for the sake of a social and political statement.
Like youre saying, there are indeed extremely powerful jedi out of nowhere. Plo koon had control over sith lightning. mace windu was one of the most powerful jedi during the clone wars. Asajj ventress was super powerful at an age younger than rey, and she never made it out of the status of padawan before she turned. And most importantly anakin, who didnt have a father and shme sjywalker wasnt force sensitive. This isnt at all a political statement, everyone was so ready to think that rey was lukes daughter, so they said "no thats too predictable" so they changed that. A simple message saying that people can be special without a special parent isnt a political statement.
I completely disagree with Elyse's point. Anyone could be fore sensitive to begin with. If you watch or read literally any other media besides the original films, you'd know this. Rey's character is the embodiment of entitlement, she's just powerful, just because, that's the movie's whole point. She just is. Same with Kylo Ren. At least his character is given more of a story as well.
Adam's hair is increasingly becoming more and more Lynch-like. Also totally agree with Adam and James. There's so much in this movie that makes you think is going to go down a unique perspective or change the formula up but basically says "Haha! Tricked ya! It's still the same-old-same-old bad guy is bad and good guy is good." I also liked that Snoke was just killed and we didn't find out much about him. Very much in line with the whole Rey came from nobody. *But* what would really slam in the "Snoke dying without knowing about him" in a good way is how he was the stepping stone for Kylo. The whole interesting speech on getting rid of the past, no jedi, no rebels. That would add some weight to Snoke dying being the kill that gives gravitas to Kylo's whole speech. My worry is that would all go down the toilet if they use Kylo to just be "let's rule the galaxy!". Driver is killing it as Kylo and I really hope they don't take the character down that road.
When Poe finally hears the plan to evacuate the ship, he scrunches his face and goes "Huh, that could work." Then moves on and totally no-sells the fact that he just sent his friend and another girl on a potential suicide mission with no planned extraction for literally no reason. That was the biggest "...wut?" for me in the movie.
Pepper I agree, except for the length that at times felt like a long car ride where my left butt cheek fell asleep from my wallet in the back pocket. It was a fun movie I took the whole family to. We all enjoyed it.
Due to the packed theater, I had to sit next to a 4-6 year old child, that kids reaction to the movie was better than the movie. This kid was on my left and my dad was on my right and that combination got a real emotional response out of me. I was that kids age when episode 1 came out. Nostalgia at its finest.
Tbh I wouldn't have minded the random casino trip if Poe and Finn had gone on it. James' version of that storyline was exponentionally better then what actually happened
You can't apply actual science to the way Star Wars depicts space, and you could never do so before either. It's not like The Last Jedi suddenly started having sound in space either. Star Wars is space fantasy, not science fiction. This is a redundant argument.
George Berry might be true but to be honest I don't care bc I really liked it and I couldn't care less if other people like it or not it's there choice
Hey, Funhaus version is more logical: Let Ackbar be the proxy general. Let Holdo and Rose become his assistants. Ackbar tells Poe about the plan. Poe disagrees and convinces Finn to go to Canto Blight together to find the hacker. Finn explains about his feeling being a child captive/soldier to Poe. The plan eventually fails. Ackbar does the kamikaze lightspeed attack. Poe regrets his decision and tries to redeem himself during the final battle by doing Finn's kamikaze attack but Finn saves him. Holdo to replace Leia at the of episode 9. Reveal Rose's backstory (death of her sister) in episode 9. Behold, the not so polarizing episode 8.
I REALLY do not understand how anyone can be angry at Episode 8, but not angry at episode 7. JJ Abrams literally destroyed everything Luke, Lei, and Han fought for in episodes 4-6, the Entire New Republic, in about 60 seconds, without even giving it an introduction. He also did it, with a callout to Luke's original name, stuck on a new, stupid, Deathstar.
Rian Johnson has never seen a Star Wars film. He had a millennial intern (who has also never seen a SW movie or read a SW book) watch The Empire Strikes Back, then give him the Cliff Notes version. He then wrote TLJ off that.
You know, I think my friend said it best: "You can tell a movie is challenging and fresh when the ratings are this divisive." Whether you liked the film, it is incredibly important that they caused such a challenging understanding of the film. I'd say part of the reason the prequels are so poorly regarded is they didn't challenge the audience at all. I would, without a second guess, watch the director's cut in a heartbeat. This is the first Star Wars film, even as a major Star Wars fan, that kept me engaged the entire time. I loved the multiple story lines at once and Kylo and Rey's development. I loved the decision with Luke to have him go grey. I absolutely adored the decision to make Rey have no relation to the Skywalkers or the Solos. I was so happy Snoke didn't become another Sidious and was killed off early (we don't need another hidden villain pulling the strings. That idea is exhausted.) Genuinely some of my only critiques that I agree with of the film is that it's long and filled to the brim, and the space Leia decision is confusing (though to me, only because Carrie Fisher has passed on, so what will they do with her?) Beyond that, I genuinely think it's the best Star Wars film since Empire, and possibly even better than Empire. I really think this is going to be a film that is talked about for years, maybe decades, after the trilogy has ended.
21:50 people freaked out about leia because the actress died, and people thought it was a decent way for her to go out, and while they had cut away from her people made peace with that, and then she supermans back to the ship and has no meaningful role for the entire rest of the movie and it feels real bad man.
Robert Hutchison Exactly! But Boba Fett was super popular even though he really did nothing. So I think they were hoping to cash in on that again with a chrome stormtrooper.
Also how the FUCK is Ackbar still an admiral after thirty years????? He should be god tier.
Kagera80 - he shoulda fuckin' retired, I'm sure the Rebellion has some sort of pension, funded by the Organa's left over wealth
I hope the Organa's had some off world bank account or that money is gone. Seriously though they beat the Empire in Return of the Jedi and in 30 years they didn't make any real headway in changing the universe opinion away from them. The Star Wars universe really likes its fascism.
He was a rebel. If he "retired" he would have been chased/charged as a war criminal under the First Order. You gotta remember the First Order is like the gestapo of the universe. Keyword Rebellion
Kagera80 what's above admiral? Admiral General?
All the different races age at different speed i.e. Chewie and Yoda.
I really wanted a grey Jedi thing to happen between Kylo and Rey. It made sense considering the trajectory of the saga as a whole (prequels the dark side rises, OT the light side rises, this one could have been in the middle as a way to sort of prevent future conflict). It would have added a more profound way of philosophical thinking that I think audiences would have loved. The best part of Star Wars has always been its underlying teachings about humanity and mythology that audiences connect with instinctively. This film kind of lacked any coherent mythological teaching IMO.
But the trilogy isn't done yet? Perhaps this film just laid the foundations for the whole 'balance' 'grey jedi' thing.That narrative could become clearer after Ep 9?
Patrick B No. The best part about Star Wars, or at least the main reasons it's so popular, are the sights and sounds. I don't think people walked out of Empire Strikes Back in 1980 thinking about the film's underlying teachings about humanity. Rather they were thinking about how cool the light sabre duel between Luke and Darth was.
My thinking is that people don't consciously think about things like that, although they do notice it on a subconscious level. Most people are really bad at explaining why they like things and yes, will default to, "I liked the action and the visuals were awesome." as opposed to telling grandpa about the deep emotional conflicts that resonate with many people in the movie. Not to say the visuals and sound aren't HUGE in Star Wars - they are one of the best things about it. But people don't notice as easily the mythological basis underlying the storytelling although that is exactly the thing which keeps them interested in the plot, despite the often shitty dialogue.
And Jake Deasy, sure, they have time to include what I want, which is why I'll watch the last film, but personally I haven't found much else to like about this trilogy in particular so far which is why I wanted the grey jedi now.
100%
I'm so glad James pointed out the scene shortly after Snoke's death where you see him laying there with the goofiest look on his face. I was almost willing to accept his death even if it felt sudden and wasted but that following scene really shat all over what little we knew of Snoke so far.
James always has the most poignant points in these. Not to say the others don't have great commentary, but goddamn does James just cut to the heart of it all every time. His comment that Star Wars is now just a genre--boom. He right
kujo8079 Agreed
he is soooo wrong about Rogue One though, of course you care about Gin and her getting into the rebellion, when you've just seen her orphaned as a 6 year old because of the Empire. But then again i see Rogue One as maybe 4th maybe even the 3rd best star wars movie.
@@Stegibbon nope i agree with him for rogue one too
@@1spidog have you read the list of people that care?
@@Stegibbon I could say the same thing about your dumbass fucking hypocrite
I think this is the best movie podcast yet. Every one is arguing about points witch I love not like the other ones where you all agree on one side and James did amazing job telling us strong and weak points in the movie.
I felt myself mirroring Adam's every facial expression as he listened to everyone else talk.
Same here... Adam knows the stuff.
Uh oh, this aged poorly
Everyone is complaining anout Admiral Akbar, and I think I know why. There was a PERFECTLY suited role for him in this film as a replacement for Laura Dern's character. Nobody actually cares about Akbar, but he could have been cleverly utilized instead of forcing in Laura Dern's character
Yeah but I think they could do it was that the actor how played Akbar died before filming .
Could you fucking imagine the outrage if they had ackbars goofy practical effect mask screaming as he hyperjumped into the dreadnaught lmao star wars has always been a little goofy which people always love to forget (like how there was a decent amount of people pissed at ewoks) but that would've absolutely thrown this over the edge of just what the fuck, it would be too ridiculous which is hard to accomplish in the world of star wars. Practical yoda was a great nod but even that was a little jarring at first.
Apparently that was going to be his role in early scripts, but they decided to shy away from a character literally named "Ackbar" suicide bombing.
but only if he shouts "ADMIRAL ACKBAR" while suiciding into the enemy ship
Caleb Fletcher... the fact that you use the term "gender role reversal" says a lot more about you then it does about The Last Jedi. I'm not even sure what the hell it is supposed to mean in this context. Who has been replaced by the opposite sex in Star Wars? Or do you mean that Rey is the Luke character and is female... the horror! Or did you want to say something about "shoving in characters that tend to be female or minority (sometimes both!) into movies for diversity sake without any substance"? No... that would have actually had a point.
Regardless of the flaws, Luke's lightsaber broke so that means Rey has to build another which makes me excited to maybe see another double bladed saber like Maul since Rey likes staffs
_ Hans _ is that an accidental sex joke?
This won't happen
I rather see a lightsaber pike
the moment when they revert to copying the original trilogy and she finds Luke's green lightsaber instead.
I never asked for this geez, who shat in your cereal?!
Adam and James are culturally refined gentlemen and I respect their thought out opinions greatly
because i didn't like the movie and i like it when people vindicate my feelings
Lawrence including!
Nothing is wrong about not liking the movie, it's when people don't like it for nitpicky reasons like why do the bombs fall down in space? Like really, you're complaining about space physics in Star Wars?
lilbrother21 It's even more annoying because: 1. Bombs were magnetic 2. In the vacuum they had enough momentum to fall directly on the surface 3. TIE bombers in previous movies did the same thing and nobodycomplained
@@Solaxe In episode 5 they were shot in the last jedi they were dropped
@@lilbrother21 It's an odd thing to put in the movie, I get they're trying to draw allegory to WW2 strategic bombing but it doesn't really make sense. You don't strategically bomb a ship. However it's far from movie-breaking because yeah "Star Wars physics" is just whatever anyway. The movie is a total disaster for many other reasons.
Elyse makes the point that the message was that freedom and agency are important as is hard work. But Rey's character is literally antithetical to that idea as she's barely worked for anything and yet she's apparently insanely powerful and already knows and understands the Jedi teachings with a rubber stamp approval from Yoda.
This is a late reply but she hasn't worked for anything? She had to survive on her own from the age of like 6 on a hostile and horrendous planet for several years. She had to work to survive and to eat.
I enjoy B L E A C H. She really hasn’t though, she clearly was given to the guy who gave her food in her flashbacks. She works for him and gets food for currency. Her just living on a planet with slight abilities to use a staff is not good enough for her strength in the force or her skills with a lightsaber. The problem with Rey is she just hasn’t earned what she has, and the story bends to her even if it defies all logic. It happens several times between the current two films.
@@thesovietdrugdealer.7166 Clearly not super hostile and dangerous as far as star wars goes, its just another star wars desert planet. Its hardy living and shes independent and can take care of herself and stuff from thugs and stuffbut that doesnt automatically make her worthy of being a near full powered jedi by the second movie lol. And like the other guy said, she wasnt on her own lol, she was a planet locked scavenger, millions of people do that in star wars lol. She barely goes through any personal challenges before the final movie. Her parents being worthless (at this point anyway) was mostly a throwaway line that doesnt do anything to really discourage her.
That's why they made her a Palpatine, so they could fill in the blanks of why she's inexplicably so powerful and doesn't struggle with anything. This also completely destroys Elyse's one positive element of her character, so that's unfortunate lol.
For Adams point regarding Kylos plea to Rey at the end asking her to join him;
The way I interpreted it was that when Kylo disavowed literally everything and asked Rey to join him, it wasn’t to rule the galaxy. He didn’t explicitly say that. He says that they’ll learn together but they must destroy everything in order to do so. To me, this means that he wants to forge his own destiny and wanted Rey to do it too; he was tired of having the light side and the dark side in Luke and Snoke having total control of his destiny that he’s so desperate for some semblance of control over himself.
He was asking for her to be one familiar thing that he can latch onto, and together they can destroy all that is familiar. That was the moment when I realized he might actually be in love with her (aside from the intense sexual tension in that elevator)
Edward Irra reylo, I am all for that theory
Edward Irra Except he did explicitly say that they would rule together. If he said what you said it would have been great, but he didn't
Reylo is nonsense and would destroy both Rey and Kylo as characters
Finally the one movie podcast I was waiting for
Dom Arce I was hoping for The Room/Disaster Artist movie podcast but I enjoyed this
I know right? I can't believe it took this long to get Space Buddies
Space Buddies? Me too!
"Show Me The Meaning" from Wisecrack is the best movie podcast
In a rough draft of the script, the side plot with the casino followed poe and finn , but the director felt their dynamic was "boring".
Because they weren't charming and had great chemistry in the last film or anything.
michael scotto insert frumpy Asian girl who has the physique of a late teen who lays in her bed browsing tumblr all day and night
that's some mudda bullshit 😤 rose is the most unnecessary character of 2017
really says a lot about him as a writer
Subliminal Messages right, if you can't get the scene or dialogue to work, its not the characters, its the fucking writing. Improve from there and you won't have to insert an entirely new token character. The dialogue still doesn't make a lot of sense considering finns backstory.
Because OF COURSE Luke would consider killing Han and Lei's son in his sleep. Yup, nailed the character 100% Rian.
the fact is it never even should have gotten to that point. The idea that Luke would even CONSIDER for a split second to kill a defenseless pupil is so Out of character it deserves outrage. the Original Series Luke believed Darth Vader could be redeemed and he was established as a bad person. Now youre saying Luke just drops all of that to think of killing someone that MIGHT Turn bad ( you can debate that he immediately decided not to but thats still turning on a LIGHTSABRE against someone you are planning to Kill, Its like pointing a loaded gun at someone then deciding not to shoot them. Doesnt matter how long it lasted thats not something any normal person would do)?..
The one thing you all noticed but don't want to admit is that this movie tries to have it all and ends up having nothing. It couldn't decide what it wanted to be. It tried to shed a layer of old (dead) Star Wars snake skin and underneath it was just new but same looking skin. And to top it of it kills off what shouldn't have been shed(Luke and the force).
And no one wants to say it: the movie confirms Rey is a Mary Sue. It's carrying that label proudly at this point.
The point of there being too many cuts and change of pace is a fair one. I liked how TFA was basically linear while TLJ is all over the place. Didn’t stop me from liking the movie though but it definitely could’ve been edited together better.
I’m glad JJ is back for Episode IX to hopefully steer the ship back in the right direction for the final movie in this trilogy and hope to see answers to questions that TLJ has created.
They should've used Akbar to do the space blast
nice you got adam driver to come
Golden State Warriors fan since 2015 that's actually Edgar Wright
No one mentioned BB8's amazing ability to control a walker
probs hacked it like most robots do in all star wars movies ever made.
Yeah, Astromechs in Star Wars can do all kinds of crazy shit with their weird spinny hacks.
And he turned into a giant while driving it too.
He's the true "Hack God" not Lawrence. lol
If Holdo had told Poe the plan to leave to the old rebel base in cloaked pods, then would Finn and Rose had gone on their mission to Canto Bight and gotten captured to reveal the cloaked pods?
I get Holdo was trying to keep Poe in check but Poe was regarded as the best fighter pilot in the galaxy, he just helped coordinate an attack on the Star destroyer, surely Holdo would be able to trust him with the plan to avoid him going on another reckless outburst like he does at the beginning of TLJ with the bombers.
I’m not trying to defend the subplot between Poe and Holdo, but I did think of a few counter arguments to support why Holdo wouldn’t tell Poe her plans.
In the same scene where Poe leads the attack on the Dreadnought (and loses a lot of bombers, too), it’s established that as long as Poe thinks he’s doing what’s best for the Resistance, he’ll ignore orders even from Princess Leia herself. Holdo has no reason to believe that Poe would behave himself even if she revealed her plans to him. He could still say “No, you’re wrong,” and do his own thing. I know that ultimately once he finds out what the plan was he agrees, but there was no guarantee that he would.
Holdo also had no idea how the First Order was tracking their ships through light speed. Only Finn and Rose speculated (without any real proof) that a device was being used to track them, but it could’ve been a mole on the ship. Perhaps Poe is trustworthy, but can Holdo take that chance (on top of trusting him to follow her plan even if he disagrees with the plan)? What about the other people who are also on the bridge with them? This possibility is why in the military, there is a policy called “need to know,” and for Poe to do his job, he didn’t need to know.
Finally, Poe further demonstrates his boneheadedness by jumping to conclusions when he sees that the transport ships are siphoning fuel from the cruiser. He doesn’t ask why, he just assumes Holdo is making a mistake and throws a tantrum, something that is out of line in a military command structure.
Ben Schrader i thought Holdo knew? Leia mentions that they knew that they were being tracked, they were just buying time to get to Crait.
Yeah they knew they were being tracked, the question though was "how?" Though considering the plan was to escape to Crait on smaller cloaked transport ships that the First Order wouldn't be scanning for, I don't think Holdo cared how they were being tracked, either. That information didn't pertain to the success of Holdo's plan.
Bottom line for me is that Poe, based on his brash and half-cocked attitude, was never in a position to be questioning his superior officer, nor was Holdo beholden to either logic or rules to reveal her plans to her subordinates; it's the nature of a military command structure. That doesn't make the subplot any less contrived for a movie, but at the present time, I don't believe simply telling Poe the plan would have been any gaurantee of preventing a half-baked Canto Bight mission or an attempted mutiny.
The only thing is that everyone knows that Poe is a hothead that will defy his superiors in order to do what he believes is right/correct. Why not put him in the brig or something? Did Holdo really not think that Poe would do something drastic whether it be a mutiny or go and create his own plan to save the ship, if so that's asinine. If Holdo had revealed the plan to Poe and the entire crew, and they would had accepted it because it's somewhat sound in the terms of Star Wars, the entire movie wouldn't be a thing and everyone would be on the world. I understand the subplot is to teach Poe a lesson so he isn't a hothead and learns the chain of command blah blah blah, but still.
BOSK+ Holdo was also holding a bit of a grudge against Po since those bombers he got destroyed were under her command. If anything, both were at fault for the mutiny.
Hard work?? Rey never works hard. She just becomes a Jedi cause the force just gives it to her. Luke may have inherited the force from his father but he still had to work to gain his skills.
Luke is able to use the force pretty easily in A New Hope, his only training was Obi-Wan telling him to "stretch out with your feelings". Then he blocks lasers while blinded.
oontgrad *And months of formation with Yoda...
More like days. Luke's training with Yoda all happens in Empire Strikes Back, right? That's a couple days of training at most, not that it matters because he was using the force before the Jedi training. Hazevamp27 said "She just becomes a Jedi cause the force just gives it to her." But that's what the force is. You are born with it, like Luke and Anakin were.
oontgrad To become a Jedi, years of training are required. Why do you think that the Jedi Order begin to train their members when they're only children and promote them to Jedi Knight when they reach adulthood? You can't master a lightsaber without any practice, you have to learn what powers the Force gives you access to and how to use them.
I'm not sure what your point is. How does any of that justify the criticism of Rey? Speaking of the lightsaber, when does Luke train with it? Unless Yoda trained him off-screen, then his only training was with the floating ball in A New Hope.
Jake "The Snoke" Roberts
RandomBattleXP Basically Jake "The Snake" without DDP Yoga.
The best worst/part of the movie for me was when the Rebel was on that salt planet and touched the white ground and said "it's salt" :D we got it Johnson...it's not Hoth 2.0, tnx
so mineral instantly equals salt? how many god dam minerals are there and the instant they call it a mineral planet your mind goes to salt.
It's called world building and congrats to you for making the salt conclusion on your own before them delivering that line.
i swear people are shitting on this movie for the smallest of shit just to join a band wagon.
To OP's point a lot of movie goers would have thought it was snow or at the least white sand.
The minerals they were talking about were the red crystals. not the salt.
darthchris19 that scene was set up solely for a cameo shot and I don't even remember who it was for.
the director for rogue one gareth edwards. he's next to the guy that licks the salt
They whiffed on the ultimate risk. Rey should've taken Kylo's offer. Other than that, Laura's Dern's admiral, along with being totally unbelievable with zero command presence, is the source of almost all the plot holes in the movie as a result of her total refusal to tell Poe the plan. Every subplot initiated by that baffling decision (Poe's mutiny, casino planet adventure) was pointless. And nothing was learned when it was over, there were no arcs to any characters involved.
Playing devil’s advocate here. She did not want the hot headed, just demoted poe to know critical information about the mission. Does it make sense that she didn’t tell anyone? Probably not, but that might have been the reasoning behind it
Iñaki Loureiro but honestly, the first time she shuts poe down I get, he was a hot head pilot she was putting in his place. But why the second time when she started fueling transports did she not tell Anyone (not just poe, but before he walked into the room) about what they were actually doing? And she could have smacked down poe so hard with some snarky comment about what she was doing to put him in his place, instead she told him to shut up.
JLaneboy5 Chain of command. It's need to know. If the boss says Do this as a good solider you do it or you mutiny because you believe they are wrong.
Dirk Strider which is why the first time I'm ok with her not telling poe, but when she tells people to start fueling up to get on them and leave, that's when the others should be told, instead of everyone getting onto transport ships thinking they were just blasting off into space.
The minute Poe discovers the actual plan he tells Finn and is responsible for the plan getting known to the First Order killing the majority of the remaining resistance fighters. It is litterally shown, why telling Poe anything is stupid.
The Last Jedi is probably the first time I’ve felt angry and disappointed in a Star Wars movie. This is by far one of my least favorite Star Wars movies.
You didn't feel angry or disappointed in the prequels? Or are we pretending those don't exist when we make statements like these?
the prequels were masterpieces comparing to TLJ. Sure the acting was bad but there was a story there that expanded the universe and built on the lore. Episode 7 and 8 (but mostly 8) were like some youtubers banded together and made a well produced fanfiction
All that lore in the prequels...
Dexter Jettster's diner
The fact a clone army was built because of the Jedi's incompetence.
Boba Fett's backstory was told and it was lame as fuck ("what the fuck is a Mandalorian?" - George Lucas)
The Trade Federation blocking trade and then being changed to the "separatist" because even Lucas realized how fucking dumb that was.
The only worse love story than Twilight known to man
Yoda's character ruined!
Anakin was never good and always brimming with rage so his redemption at the end of Return feels shallow and no longer earned.
Are the Disney ones perfect? Fuck no! But saying the Prequels are a masterpiece compared to anything other than a snuff film for the sole reason that at least no one died is laughable.
The Prequels were a mess if you like them for nostalgia reasons then have fun, but it doesn't change the fact that George didn't know how to handle Star Wars either and maybe Disney bought something that nobody knows what to do with and fans only want to see the same shit they've already seen and Rian Johnson had the gall to ask "can we do something different?" and the fans have since said "NO!" Admittingly his attempt was a mess and didn't do it effectively, but I highly doubt Star Wars fans want anything other than what they know and that's the ultimate problem with Star Wars... there are no stories to tell on a larger scale. Some expanded universe stuff works for the diehards, some shows like Clone Wars and Rebels work for kids and casuals, but on a movie scale if you're not getting the same slop you got already you're "disappointed".
Besides my point was to merely point out that the Prequels were the most disappointing thing to Star Wars fans, to make a comment ignoring that just to pile on this movie is a foolish use of hyperbolic language. You can hate or be disappointed in both, but to ignore the ones that killed Star Wars and tried at every turn to ruin the original films is just a lame attempt to join the hate on the Disney films (which I would admit aren't good, but they're far superior to the prequels).
The prequels were more about the politics and betrayal that led to the originals. They had a good story. Sorry bud but the new movies are trash and just pander to fans who liked the first three movies. Every single movie in this new trilogy is just going to be a terrible allusion to the old ones.
A lot of fans of the OT dislike TLJ, so it's not like Disney is 100% set on pandering only to them. The problem is they tried so hard to subvert or deconstruct Star Wars instead of making an awesome space opera. No one wanted to see Luke as this washed up loser, or see Finn and Rose go into a stupid casino planet, or see Rey barely struggle and continue to be as interesting as a wet blanket, or see whatever the fuck Holdo was supposed to be, or see Luke milking weird aliens like a creep or see Snoke get killed off in an instant without us knowing why the fuck is anything happening in this goddamn new trilogy/set of films. It's like they set to please anyone BUT Star Wars fans and ended up pissing off A LOT of them. It made a billion dollars (one billion less than TFA, but a billion dollars nonetheless), and that's all that matters to Disney.
So glad you guys had an interesting and constructive discussion about the film instead of just either glowing over it or hating on it. This is why I love the movie podcast.
Sam I hope you realize this was about 80% hate and/or disappointment
That's not accurate. John and Bruce both said they enjoyed the film, Elyse seemed to be mixed but seemed more positive than negative, James seemed to be very split (stating there were parts he both absolutely loved and parts he hated), Lawrence was intrigued by aspects but didn't enjoy it overall, and only Adam outright disliked the film.
If you break that down just based on their opinions, 33% enjoyed, 33% mixed, and 33% disliked. Yes, the majority of the podcast was spent discussing the flaws of the film, but that's because it's simply more interesting to discuss the flaws of a film than gush for an hour about the cool stuff.
Basically, if you talk about stuff you like, you can only say each reason you liked the thing once because whatever you're talking about is something you wouldn't change. But the flaws of the film are things that you wish were different which opens up endless discussion possibilities. Hence the focus on that.
Also, discussing the flaws of something does not at all imply hatred. It may imply some degree of disappointment but sometimes not even then. Bruce and John were discussing the flaws with the rest (because it's more interesting as podcast material like I said) but the subtext was that they still enjoyed the film and the flaws that they're talking about didn't bother them much. Elyse and James also had this subtext during parts of the podcast, though sometimes it flipped and you could tell they were actually disappointed with certain aspects (more James than Elyse).
Is it normal to clap for a movie in the US or something? Never seen anyone do it before
I’ve only gone to one movie where the audience clapped and that was because the cast was there.
Only for big awaited movie series like this one since SW is just a huge cultural phenomenon over here
Seen people do it on the dark knight
Yeah people normally clap and cheer and shit in US theaters. I remember being in a theater for star wars episode 2 and people literally stood up and cheered/clapped when Yoda started fighting count dooku.
Count yourself lucky, over here the average theater viewer tries to make as much noise as possible during the showing, clapping and whooping at the screen like a knuckle-dragger that sees fire for the first time.
There are so many plot holes in the movie and the editing is so messy that it might as well be called STAR WARS: THE JEDI MESH..
The three resistance protagonist (poe, fynn and rose) f-up so many times that one might think they are first order spies.
With one bad decision after another they brought the resistance numbers to a dozen.. The worst part is they were then hailed as heros!! If they were near a real life military, they would have been court-martialed and sent back home
Prof. Himstein - they would have been PCS'd to Fort Leavenworth for the remainder of their lives.
Prof. Himstein they aren’t a real military they are rebel’s -smugglers impoverished civilians and some defectors
They don’t have the best training or weapons or the most resources
And they are some pretty dank examples or real life armies fucking up way worse (like shooting each other)
Idk that’s just how I️ see it your entitled to your opinion
I️ like how the movie is different the main characters don’t know what to do ,they fuck up , and they aren’t all badass’
Actually, not communicating your plans to your subordinates while on a ship with them basically invites mutiny, and history shows that time and time again. Admiral Gender Studies's leadership was atrocious; she could have avoided all of that mess by telling Poe the plan.
Mael Sholjhaes I dont disagree with you. But if mutiny brings destruction of your own side, you are going to be charged for treason. No matter what that subplot and most of the movie was sh*t.
Given Poe's poor disciplinary record I was not surprised by the strategy she used. I can't lecture you on military strategies. I would point you to this though:
www.cdse.edu/multimedia/need-to-know/need_to_know.pdf
I always thought the overlying theme of the film was that it was that its okay to fail, through failure we learn how to get better/failure
But don't you think it's kinda dumb to halt the progress of a new trilogy to introduce new characters and scenarios so we can have a Saturday morning message?
Hmmm didnt almost everyone also fail in empire Jagd???
What about the fact that rey literally never fails. she does everything perfect. fights on part or better kylo ren without any training, overcomes the darkside in the whole thing very easily etc...
1. Rey failed at turning kylo
2. She fails at bringing luke back
3. She got tricked to give herself up???
Those are 3 of basic things she failed at in this movie.
Imagine if it wasn't Laura Dern's character who blew up snoke's ship, but admiral ackbar! That would have been so much better...
And then maybe some guy on snoke's ship notices it last moment and goes: it's a trap!
holy shit that would have been so much better xD
Imagine if it had been Leia. Sending her character off in a gigantic F U to the First Order. Instead we'll probably get a jarring line about her death in Ep.9's opening crawl.
SeniorFlomas tbh I think he was going to martyr himself originally but the voice actor died before the movie was filmed so a secondary (female empowering) character was added instead) :/ in my head canon, Ackbar made the sacrifice instead. just imagine the endless memes
I think they wanted to avoid the inevitable allahu akbar jokes
A yes they want to avoid yarring jokes because the joke in that joke of a film aren`t that.
I agree, her character only existed because they 'needed' more females in the script.. fuck off with the humans already, we need more alien roles!
Luke did not have a good ending. He performed an amazingly powerful act of the force but for what purpose? All he did was provide a short temporary delay for the bad guys. He didn't turn Kylo to be a good guy. He didn't have any physical impact in any way. It was a sad little ending for such a great character.
Why was Admiral Ackbar killed off? Because they wanted Holdo to be in charge. Simple as that. That's how much respect they have for your favorite characters.
Admiral Ackbar was killed off because the actor who played him died unexpectedly shortly before production began, and they felt it would be disrespectful to recast the role.
@@themightysven multiple actors have played admiral ackbar. so thats a lie.
The Leia thing was really dumb to me, it was the opposite of the problem the prequels had of try to quantify and remove all the mystic nature of the force, but this was just no rules force is anything you want
Benperson it's been stated that Leia, being a Skywalker, is very force sensitive and she could've easily been a Jedi.
Italian Sosij yeah I know, but luke trained for two movies and barely could lift rocks, and Leia is an elderly woman floating in space, seems far fetched
Could be me, but is there gravity in space? Isn't the floating in space normal?
Kevin Stoffels It seems like moving yourself in space would be the easiest force ability. There is no other force acting on you in space so you'd basically just be moving a weightless mass
Alex Reinke exactly my idea, all she had to do was force pull on the spaceship!
Luke dodging kylo's lightsaber and doing a 360 was badass
Odd I felt that was really out of place for the movie. It was a random slow motion move in a franchise that hasn't done that before. It was a very matrix like move that felt out of place for me.
Yeah that was cool.. It was very yoda like..
well I believe in the lore Luke is supposed to be one of the fastest Jedi's ever. I really enjoyed them doing that (although FUCK YOU FOR HAVING HIM HAVE A BLUE LIGHTSABER)
David Ure, they were giving him jedi speed like someone mentioned above. Fans of rpgs like Knights of the Old Republic are some of the few people that can appreciate that, so they gave them a nugget instead of green lightning like he should have.. Electric Justice
But he wasnt really tho... it was just a hologram. LAME!
@1:04:43 those CG porges were needed because the real island in ireland has thousands of birds on it that needed to be edited out with CG, so its not a matter of them "doing anything" it was more of a technique to make the most of the adverse filming conditions.
I didnt like space Leia moment it seemed tacky, they could have done something better to show Leias force strength. She looked like the VR guy from the Time magazine.
I think Bruce missed the point, the idea is not to absolve Kylo of his crimes when he lends his hand to Rey. It's a missed opportunity to see something else. The character just basically torn everything that defined him and did nothing to evolve. Not only did he kill his master and vodoo father but by doing so in a way he stated that the death of his father, the destruction of the jedi temple were in vain and mistakes. He turned his back to the First Order just like he turned his back on Luke, the Jedi and the "good guys". He was supposed to flee, to do his own thing, regardless of Rey's decision, start a new while still being a murderer and psycho (perhaps even regroup with the Knights of Ren or become the first on screen Grey Jedi). Instead of that, he just takes Snoke's place and follow the exact same narrative purpose he had: being the plain old cliche baddy of the story. There's no pay off and no complexity. Kylo Ren as a character just lost his chore and panache at that moment.
Am I crazy for thinking the dialogue was awkward?
Have you seen any other film in the franchise. The awkward dialogue is part of the Star Wars aesthetic at this point.
Nate Idk maybe I noticed it more in this one. But more than a few times I winced at the tropes they were trying to use. I didn't have that same feeling watching the original trilogy or force awakens.
That's weird. I noticed dialogue tropes in all the films. I've come to love it as part of the Star Wars charm only because I was introduced to the off-putting dialogue from the very genesis of the franchise. If it had been newly introduced in the prequels or this third trilogy, it wouldn't have felt right.
Nate Good point I'm probably just not noticing it
Each movie has the occasional gem, like TFA had some bad ass lines, but Star Wars in general has cringe worthy dialogue. Rewatch some of the garbage they put on screen with Jar Jar
The Jedi would take young children into their care and teach them their lifestyle.
The First Order would take young children into their care and teach them their lifestyle.
That could have been a great parallel into why the Jedi should end. Sady it was missed.
Great review discussion though guys!
Wow. Its that simple
Did the Jedi steal children or ask the parents? (I'm not too sure)
If not, one is kidnapping & the other is an opportunity to explore ones self.
First Order outright kidnapped children.
Jedi never kidnapped, they asked the parents. If parents said no the jedi would apologize and leave, but would try to impress upon them how it could be dangerous for the child.
The Jedi gaslight the parents into giving them the kids, and then won't allow the kids to ever see their parents again. It's basically a less jarring kidnapping.
I keep hearing that The Last Jedi "took risks," but I don't seem to get that. All I saw was a bunch of recycled bits from the original trilogy tied together sloppily with some some new force abilities thrown in to make it seem new.
I agree, but I still really liked the movie.
The idea that, after killing the two darkest men in the Galaxy in Darth Vader and Darth Sidious, and knowing all the knowledge of how balance in the force works, that the last two practicing people, Luke and Leia, didn't have some sort of plan to prepare for when any one force user goes polar opposite of them is proposterous. This intense fear of a kid that doesn't know how dark to be, and the missed opportunity to mold a heart to the light when Luke JUST DID THAT TO HIS FATHER, is inane stupidity in the writing of this movie.
Hmm, you guys did not take to Space Buddies as I thought you would.
tl;dr if the movie didn't take risks, the masses of the Star Wars fandom would have liked it. Like with TFA.
The risks they're talking about are on the larger, director scale; that it wasn't like 5, it wasn't like other star wars films, it isn't what anyone expected. If those risks they took to make this movie different had no pay off that's a failure on the part of the people who took those risks. So, risk=no reward which isn't a good thing. Adam said after Jon that this movie backpedaled it's character arcs, and when it showed the audience potential for something new, it backpedals, which I think is what you're talking about.
I love everytime Elise is like "Anyone can have the force!"
Nah, only those with magic grandpa's can have the force.
I appreciate Adam in this Podcast, the movie changed what star wars means for many now, and while everyone was being relatively soft on critiquing the film, he was honest. Thanks for speaking your mind.
Farid in this podcast was kinda like the Finn/Rose plot
😂😂
I think the biggest problem to me (I still enjoy it at times) was that I didn't feel like I was watching a Rian Johnson movie, I'm 100% sure that Kathleen Kennedy or someone from Disney said him to change a few things.
al112v5 no and yes
From the year 2019 when im re-watching this, Holdo's light speed smash wouldn't have worked because you don't just go really fast. If that's the case, then there would have been so many times when ships would have just smashed into planets. When you go light speed you enter hyper space, and go through that dimension to your new location like a worm hole, if they did it correctly, Holdo would have hit the button, dipped out of the fight, leaving everyone confused as to why there are 10 blue beans in front of them and not the giant ship that was just there, and Holdo would be light years away sitting in the middle of space going "oh yea thats how that works". Role credits
rogue one is one of the best star wars movies tbh
Make these always an hour. Best podcast
This is why I love Funhaus. They connect to their audience so well and make you feel like you're part of the conversation.
So why didint Yoda ghost up to Snoke on his ship and just strike him with lightning ? Or why didint they lightspeed-Kamikazi the death stars ? thats SUPER effective 1 small ship to one Death Star.
What plot hole ? All the plot holes. If using one ship to destroy a fleet or the death star can be used, it should be used all the time. This film shit on so much in the SW universe its unreal.
Why waste ships ? Its using ships to gain a massive advantage, one unmanned or droid steered ship can obliterate a weapon that destroys planets, its simple maths friend. One ship with a droid can take out a star destroyer with thousands of soldiers who can kill millions of your resistance fighters. The military does these high risk small man OP`s all the time coz if it works IT WORKS OUTand if it does not you only lost a few men ( one transport ship )
CoolKwaz What ? They do use drones just not kamikaze ones, the ones with missiles. There was an outcry because of this, Obama got a load of shit just for that reason. Troops are used tactically to have a presence and to work with the people on the ground after the area has been BOMBED to shit by drones. The next iteration of this is the Boston dynamics robots that will take over troops completely. Because it is better to use a robot ( ship ) than troops on the ground to fight and die in skirmishes that can be completely avoided by the use of something more efficient and something that does not cost lives.
And its not like a transport ship is ever going to win against a star destroyer, so best use it in a way that it actually can, LIGHTSPEED-KAMIKAZE. :)
In real life if I took a plane and rammed it into the bad guys base I could probably also destroy said base...why doesn't the military just suicide jets into the enemy all the time, its just one plane right?
what I hate about this is Rian johnson didn't respect Star Wars or the things JJ Abrems was setting up.
On the point of why Kylo hesitated to kill Leia and not Han; I think Ramsey Bolton from Game of Thrones said it best “If you think this has a happy ending you haven’t been paying attention”. I’m referring to that quote in regards to what happened after the original trilogy. There’s no way Han said everything is saved now I’m going to settle down and have a family. That makes no sense. Leia and Han are divorced. I would bet that Han was an absentee father. Couple that with the enormous shadow of his parents, grandparents, and uncle. He had to constantly hear about what a hero Han was while Kylo probably missed him at significant points, you all know the whole Cats in the cradle thing. So I can surmise that he probably didn’t have an easy time hating her as much as he did Han. So for me that hesitation makes sense if I am not wrong about how Kylo grew up.
That thought process does make sense in many ways. I always thought that Kylo was closer to his mom anyway. Plus if you read the book "Leia," she's actually not really liked around the Republic because Darth Vader was her dad. So it makes even more sense that the two kind of band together more because of that fact.
Would love a part 2! Thanks for making this guys love what you do and looking forward to the new year of FunHaus!
Po's subplot taught him what it means to be a leader and the true value of his soldiers. It also taught him that a victory for the rebellion does not always mean blowing something up and dealing a huge blow to the empire. I think it also set up for Po taking command when Leia dies, which I think should have been in The Last Jedi.
Anthony Kiedis in the back is awesome
?
Took me 25 mins. to notice he was there.
Matthew lead singer for red hot chilli peppers, and that rush pic is awesome.
Timestamp? Where in the background? I can't find him. Are you just talking about Fahrid (spelling?)
Take a shot every time they say “subverted” or “agency” and die of alcohol poisoning so you don’t have to watch the next Star Wars.
I agree dude, such a dumb point. Did Luke not have agency when he left his home to enter a war? Did Han not have agency when he decided to not be selfish and help destroy the Death Star? Star Wars has always been about achievement
Ben Snod - they made the same mistake that whoever wrote the bible did; you can't have free will and a guiding force at the same time, they are mutually exclusive concepts.
Ifeelsosickhelpme
Ben Snod what about jarring
Andrew Jackson I’m sorry, what? That makes literally zero sense.
I don't understand how everyone's big take away from The Last Jedi is that anyone can become a Jedi and use the force, and that it's not exclusive to the Skywalker bloodline. There was literally an entire army of force using Jedi in the prequels, and I'm pretty sure only one of them was a Skywalker.
I really appreciated you guys having a measured conversation that really takes a look at both sides. It would be a very easy film to just go in and pick out what you want to see, whether good or bad, so, to see a group of people with varying opinions actually debating is very refreshing.
I followed this channel since the early IG days, and thanks to Uni have been away 2 years. Now I've moved out, and have been bingeing in a big way :D I've missed you guys
This movie is about failure. Like Yoda said, “failure is the greatest teacher”.
Its jarring more than anything like James said. Doesn’t mean it’s wrong
I just wished they learned better lessons through their failures.
Poe learned never to question authority and put his blind trust in his leaders.
Finn learned that everything is ok as long as you let space race horses go even if they are on a planet that will round them up for entertainment again and to not sacrifice yourself to save your friends, there will always be a hologram of Luke Skywalker waiting to save the day and bail you out.
Rey learned she's nothing because her parents are (fans reaction) and the only person that cares for her is a genocidal maniac.
Rose learned never to leave the engine room because you could have came up with a much easier plan to save the day. If only one ship is being track, why not overload the other ships with as many people as you can and scatter through hyperspace and leave the last one to be sacrificed?
Laura Dern learned she could be in a Star Wars movie if she dyed her hair... I mean Admiral Holdo (Had to look it up, totally forgot her name) learned she can be an incompetent leader, but if she sacrifices herself in the end audiences will call her a heroine and all will be forgiven. Wait... but that wasn't good enough for Finn? Is it because he doesn't have purple hair?
Luke learned he can cause all the current problems in the galaxy and piss off and force ghost party with Obi-Wan and Yoda and not have to deal with that shit anymore. Ok, I admit it, that's actually a pretty good lesson.
Phasma learned not to try to be in Star Wars movies anymore.
Hux learned he'll always be second fiddle... always.
The Audience learned that Carrie Fisher can have this movie dedicated to her memory, but we all forget that Kenny Baker fucking died too. We just replace R2D2 and keep rolling (pun was totally intended).
Kylo Ren learned to never go against the grain again, keep the status quo. The end of this movie really wanted to try to stop him from being the most interesting character in this new series, but had to make me revert back on character development to even attempt to.
And Benicio Del Toro learned something about a paycheck... wait was that from this film or all those beer commercials he does?
If someone has mor info then please correct me but I never really thought Star Wars was about having to be a somebody or anything like that: besides Anakin being the chosen one
It was never meant to be about having to be a somebody. It's just that anakin's bloodline is just super strong in the force so anyone from that bloodline is considered special. But thats the point the film is making is that in that universe the people put a lot of pressure on our heroes because of who they are or what their deeds were. When in reality anyone could take their place.
Looking back, Adam and Lawrence were too pedantic, whilst Elyse and Bruce were a bit too forgiving. James on the other hand seemed to look at the movie as a whole in a correct manor. Not discounting what didn’t happen, but what it did, and therefore needed it to be added to make the those aspects were good or plausible due to the situations given and know previously.
I don't why people keep saying that having Rey come from nobody special is somehow a new development or subversive change. The Star Wars films, especially the prequels, are full of Jedi that not only aren't related to Luke, but aren't descended from any other Jedi given that the Jedi order forbade Jedi to have families. It was always that way.
Why can't they just make a fight scene with lightsabers long. Like Raid Redemption for example. Why can't we do that
Give us PART TWO!! we want more! Adam, I agree with everything you said. this movie was made for the critics and the trailers. It was made to be praised for breaking paradigms within star wars since the force awakens had the critics saying it was copy paste from the original triology. But fuck the critics! and fuck the economy from all this. make a good movie, thats all. thanks guys :)
It's Disney, they won't ever say fuck the economy, ever.
It’s not jarring it’s just a mess.
@ClandestineOstrich so much so that you dont really get what happened after you finish the movie until you think two seconds and go
Wait what?
I feel so sorry for Adam, I would have lost it sitting in that discussion corner listening to the others...
Falafelbagaren for someone who says he shuts his brain off when he watches movies I really didn't get why he was so upset.
The Porgs were not added to the movie for story reasons. The island of Skellig Michael where they filmed happens to be a sanctuary for puffins so they can't shoo them away or anything, and it was easier to slightly alter the puffins than digitally remove them completely.
The only glimmer of hope in this movie for doing things differently was when Kylo asked Rey to forget it all and join him and do something else. Then they immediately went back to the standard operating procedures. He might as well have not said anything at all.
It should have been Leia at the helm of the Cruiser when it hyperspace kamizaze'd. Then they would have already set up Purple Laura Dern's character as a replacement rebel leader for episode 9, and they would have given a meaningful send off to Leia (sacrificing herself to save the tattered remains of the rebels). Now what are they going to do - kill her off-screen in the next movie? CGI her in? Just not mention her?
They said they wouldn't cgi her at all so idk how they will do it for the next movie.
That being said she died after all the filming so going back to reshoot some scenes was probably not worth it considering how much she shows up at the end. Would have meant a big rewrite at that point.
admiral ackbar would have been a better choice.
My biggest problem was when the hacker dude with the stutter some how knew the secret rebel plan that only the purple haired bitch knew. Meanwhile Poe, Finn and Rose are on a completely separate plan
I think if Ackbar did the lightspeed suicide bomb thing, it would of been so much more epic and gave him a proper death. They wouldn't of needed a pointless character that is only going to die at the end. Literally that Lady could of been replaced with Ackbar and would of been so much better.
Poe's arc ultimately amounts to him realizing that he can't always blow shit up. This is seen during Luke's confrontation with Kylo, and Poe recognizes this as a distraction so they can escape. Instead of instinctively going on the offensive like leading the bombers, he learns to think instead.
That said, I agree he should've been reprimanded more than just a demotion for getting those bombers killed. Maybe his relationship with Leia helped, as well as managing to destroy the dreadnaught.
I love what James says at the end. I saw Inception probably 10 different times and had an aha moment every single time until I felt satisfied with what happened. I can definitely see how they would do it to this movie, the one everyone was waiting for.
I find it bizarre that I can agree with what anyone says about this movie to a certain extent. That being said I believe it is bullshit that for the first week this movie had a 97% on rotten tomatoes considering just about everyone can agree there were bad moments in this movie. I just felt like the critics were afraid of giving the star wars a bad review. Not that it matters as I did at least enjoy the movie, but I wouldn't give this any kind of award except maybe most controversial.
You have to remember, the RT score is a reflection of the percentage of critics who gave it a 'thumbs up'. It's not a comment on how good critics felt the movie was. You can see the average score critics assigned the movie in smaller font underneath the RT score. A movie which everyone agrees is a solid 7/10 could have a higher RT score than one in which maybe 80% of watchers felt was 10/10.
The average score for critics was actually about 8.2 (the week of release), the 90%+ was the percent of critics who gave it a fresh rating (which is about a 70 or so).
Just don't read into, or maybe don't even acknowledge critic reviews. They've been as pointless as UA-cam thumbs for a long time, and this movie is an absolute confirmation that they have no motive to give an honest evaluation.
"Should see" is not the same as "deserves best picture" pal
Most of the reviews I've read state that the reviewer had to see the film twice to actually enjoy it.
A) that means they're so desperate to like the movie they need to force themselves to like it, and
B) you shouldn't have to watch a movie twice to understand and enjoy it. TLJ was all over the place. The pacing was wack and there were too many unfocused subplots.
Rian Johnson should never touch another Star Wars movie
r00kie309 he’s directing 3 more. God save us all
They should have never made another star wars movie, period.
Disney shouldnt have touched the star wars
cry more babies
EpikSubmission So you could bitch about Lucas "ruining" Star Wars? Sure
I'm gonna get hate for this. I liked Rogue One better than both Force Awakens and Last Jedi.
Think a lot of people do
If you have more to talk about, please do a part 2, I seriously enjoyed hearing all yours opinions, all very understandable.
I watched this a couple days ago with my nine year old nephew. He was whispering "No don't do it!" when Ren was asking Rei to join him. I feel like alot of people think this movie is just for them.
So I’m just going to post this because apparently neither the director, nor a large population of the audience seem to understand this. Why was the Rey’s parents plot line such a disappointment.... because she was just inherently OP as fuck. The whole idea they were pushing about lineage not being important and everyone can be a special snowflake is a solution to a problem that never existed in Star Wars. There were already shit tons of Jedi and other special Characters that existed outside of the Skywalker lineage. Basically 99.999999999% of them. The issue with Rey is that she was REALLY strong in the force just out of fucking nowhere. The way she was set up made it out that there was some underlying reason that would explain this...such as her inheriting some of this power from her family “skywalker, Kenobi etc...”. If her parents are nobody, and she is nobody then she is the Mary Sue of all Mary Sue’s. They shot themselves in the foot for the sake of a social and political statement.
Yeah, because SW never EVER used politics before even with Lucas on board, right?
"Darkness rises and light to meet it" the explanation is that the force has made her kylo rens equal, just like it made anakin out of thin air.
SAY IT LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACKKKK
Like youre saying, there are indeed extremely powerful jedi out of nowhere. Plo koon had control over sith lightning. mace windu was one of the most powerful jedi during the clone wars. Asajj ventress was super powerful at an age younger than rey, and she never made it out of the status of padawan before she turned. And most importantly anakin, who didnt have a father and shme sjywalker wasnt force sensitive. This isnt at all a political statement, everyone was so ready to think that rey was lukes daughter, so they said "no thats too predictable" so they changed that. A simple message saying that people can be special without a special parent isnt a political statement.
michael scotto finally someone who understands what balance in the force is
Anyone that thinks Rian Johnson "figured out Hux"....I don't trust your judgment in movies.
I completely disagree with Elyse's point. Anyone could be fore sensitive to begin with. If you watch or read literally any other media besides the original films, you'd know this. Rey's character is the embodiment of entitlement, she's just powerful, just because, that's the movie's whole point. She just is. Same with Kylo Ren. At least his character is given more of a story as well.
Adam's hair is increasingly becoming more and more Lynch-like.
Also totally agree with Adam and James. There's so much in this movie that makes you think is going to go down a unique perspective or change the formula up but basically says "Haha! Tricked ya! It's still the same-old-same-old bad guy is bad and good guy is good."
I also liked that Snoke was just killed and we didn't find out much about him. Very much in line with the whole Rey came from nobody. *But* what would really slam in the "Snoke dying without knowing about him" in a good way is how he was the stepping stone for Kylo. The whole interesting speech on getting rid of the past, no jedi, no rebels. That would add some weight to Snoke dying being the kill that gives gravitas to Kylo's whole speech. My worry is that would all go down the toilet if they use Kylo to just be "let's rule the galaxy!".
Driver is killing it as Kylo and I really hope they don't take the character down that road.
When Poe finally hears the plan to evacuate the ship, he scrunches his face and goes "Huh, that could work." Then moves on and totally no-sells the fact that he just sent his friend and another girl on a potential suicide mission with no planned extraction for literally no reason. That was the biggest "...wut?" for me in the movie.
Adam Kovic as Adam Driver. Lol
Thicc Burb as Adam West.
Am I the only person that is mad that the artillery shots from Snokes capital ship are being fired up and arch back down to hit the ship? So dumb!
A huge main first order fleet has no weapon that can disrupt or fire through a mere cruiser ship, fucking stupid
I really really loved it but also completly can understand why someone hates it
Pepper literally say this exact thing every time I talk to someone about this movie.
Pepper I agree, except for the length that at times felt like a long car ride where my left butt cheek fell asleep from my wallet in the back pocket. It was a fun movie I took the whole family to. We all enjoyed it.
Adam Overcash yeah one or two edeting changes in a directors cut might help the movie a bit more
Thank you, this is the point of view I appreciate. Satisfied but not oblivious.
Due to the packed theater, I had to sit next to a 4-6 year old child, that kids reaction to the movie was better than the movie. This kid was on my left and my dad was on my right and that combination got a real emotional response out of me. I was that kids age when episode 1 came out. Nostalgia at its finest.
Tbh I wouldn't have minded the random casino trip if Poe and Finn had gone on it. James' version of that storyline was exponentionally better then what actually happened
Only four more days till Christmassssss
Emerald has Christmas been pushed to the 27th? Lol
SuperComBoy are you dumb?
Frogfalcon today the 23rd Christmas is the 25th. Emerald said there were 4 more days. So that would mean it’s on the 27th because 23+4=27.
Issa joke from the furby video they made a few months ago
EDIT: Furby, not furry (dear lord)
landofconfusionfan it was made 11 months ago. So glad to finally find someone that got the joke haha
Biggest "technical" annoyance: During the chase, they were treating the turbolasers like artillery, with a curve and everything. IN DEEP SPACE
punk canuck Star Wars has never had accurate physics
You can't apply actual science to the way Star Wars depicts space, and you could never do so before either. It's not like The Last Jedi suddenly started having sound in space either. Star Wars is space fantasy, not science fiction.
This is a redundant argument.
I think this movie can be "saved" or be "killed" for many people by what happends in episode 9
Nah, that's what people thought about TFA... TLJ has already killed it for a lot of people now.
George Berry might be true but to be honest I don't care bc I really liked it and I couldn't care less if other people like it or not it's there choice
uh oh
Took a break from watching funhaus a few months back.
Feels good to come back fresh.
Hey, Funhaus version is more logical:
Let Ackbar be the proxy general. Let Holdo and Rose become his assistants. Ackbar tells Poe about the plan. Poe disagrees and convinces Finn to go to Canto Blight together to find the hacker. Finn explains about his feeling being a child captive/soldier to Poe. The plan eventually fails. Ackbar does the kamikaze lightspeed attack. Poe regrets his decision and tries to redeem himself during the final battle by doing Finn's kamikaze attack but Finn saves him. Holdo to replace Leia at the of episode 9. Reveal Rose's backstory (death of her sister) in episode 9. Behold, the not so polarizing episode 8.
I’m so sick of hearing the word “subverted” in EVERY review of this movie -_-
I REALLY do not understand how anyone can be angry at Episode 8, but not angry at episode 7.
JJ Abrams literally destroyed everything Luke, Lei, and Han fought for in episodes 4-6, the Entire New Republic, in about 60 seconds, without even giving it an introduction. He also did it, with a callout to Luke's original name, stuck on a new, stupid, Deathstar.
episode 8 is fucking trash way worse than episode 7 so quit defending shit.
@@1spidog It's shit, it's illogical, but it follows the formula that episode 7 established, so it is to be expected.
Rian Johnson has never seen a Star Wars film. He had a millennial intern (who has also never seen a SW movie or read a SW book) watch The Empire Strikes Back, then give him the Cliff Notes version. He then wrote TLJ off that.
You know, I think my friend said it best: "You can tell a movie is challenging and fresh when the ratings are this divisive."
Whether you liked the film, it is incredibly important that they caused such a challenging understanding of the film. I'd say part of the reason the prequels are so poorly regarded is they didn't challenge the audience at all. I would, without a second guess, watch the director's cut in a heartbeat. This is the first Star Wars film, even as a major Star Wars fan, that kept me engaged the entire time. I loved the multiple story lines at once and Kylo and Rey's development. I loved the decision with Luke to have him go grey. I absolutely adored the decision to make Rey have no relation to the Skywalkers or the Solos. I was so happy Snoke didn't become another Sidious and was killed off early (we don't need another hidden villain pulling the strings. That idea is exhausted.) Genuinely some of my only critiques that I agree with of the film is that it's long and filled to the brim, and the space Leia decision is confusing (though to me, only because Carrie Fisher has passed on, so what will they do with her?) Beyond that, I genuinely think it's the best Star Wars film since Empire, and possibly even better than Empire. I really think this is going to be a film that is talked about for years, maybe decades, after the trilogy has ended.
21:50 people freaked out about leia because the actress died, and people thought it was a decent way for her to go out, and while they had cut away from her people made peace with that, and then she supermans back to the ship and has no meaningful role for the entire rest of the movie and it feels real bad man.
I think Phasma was supposed to be Boba Fett 2.0
I mean she does just about as much on-screen so...
Robert Hutchison
Exactly! But Boba Fett was super popular even though he really did nothing. So I think they were hoping to cash in on that again with a chrome stormtrooper.
But she’s been beaten every time on screen
Yeah, she's a total throwaway character. But Boba Fett was the same way and people loved him. I'm sure Disney was hoping she'd be as popular.
TheGreatMunky she’s there for the toys and no other reason