RED team: We have a lvl3 sentry and nobody is in the vicinity of the kart and there's 5 seconds left Me with a pain train, sticky jumper, and a loch n load, single handedly taking the the point
yeah like. who on earth is ever hitting full ramp up meatshots on every single fight ever? shotgun damage is SUPER variable thanks to pellet spread and extreme differences in rampup and falloff. at lot of the time when you use a shotgun you'll be hitting 40-60 damage shots here and there. just think about all the time you've escaped a fight with
Want to be *The* offence Soldier? Pain train Battalion’s Backup Direct Hit The capping capabilities of a Scout, the building destruction of a Demoman, and the mobility of a Roamer. I have faced this load out as an engie multiple times before, I still have nightmares about it
I was thinking of the same thing but instead of the direct hit it’s the beggars bazooka or stock since both of them can hit multiple buildings at once including the engineer
that is the actual reason nobody uses it. if you gave it an extra effect for defense (prevents capping in an AOE -- which everyone can already do so also make the paintrain make you unable to be contested by non-paintrainners) people would use it
@@tabula_rosa being unable to contest against a paintrain would be a little overpowered and force other soldiers and demomen to use it too. And dont forget its your melee, meaning you can still use stuff like the batallions backup to safely cap a point, the gunboats to backcap the enemy, and maybe even the rocket jumper and shotgun for a buff scout, and a great backcap ability
8:40 I'd like to mention that this is exactly one of those situations where the damage vulnerability caused you to die inches away from a health pack that would've saved you.
@@TertiaryGuyFieri heavy was on high ground, after picking up the health kit he wouldve lost line of sight and its not like he can chase him down either so no, he wouldve definitely survived
i only wish the pain train had univerasal use; usable in all gamemodes and both teans. it could give a speed boost while carrying the intel. and for attack/defence, it could give some stat boost to red while standing on the objective. its just a bummer how often i have to unequip it
I could see it having something where on defense it helps push offense's bars back. Like, standing on a captured point causes the other side's meter buildup to drain faster and standing next to an unoccupied cart causes it to move backwards slightly faster.
Maybe standing near a cart on defense could speed up the time it takes to start rolling back and on attack defend you can reduce the capture rate on the point more quickly if they failed to take it
On defense it could increase the range you have to block the capture. Being able to stop capture from twice as far away would help you defend without getting dangerously close, especially with the explosives demo and soldier use. Would work in both attack defend and payload.
"I can reflect" *Proceeds to lose every engagement*. Great video btw Fish, I was always curious why PT was always such a non pick cause it really turns class roles on their head mostly. Also do not forget that in Medieval mode this is just a straight upgrade across the board because there's no bullets to worry about.
@@Spyachungus Yeah but those weapons are burst damage anyways, so the downside wouldn't really matter either way. If you get headshotted by a Huntsman, you're dead. Doesn't really matter what you had on you.
except that on defense, it's both a straight upgrade and a straight downgrade, making it maybe tf2's only straight sidegrade that isn't just a reskin :D
"Straight upgrade" except it's literally useless on DemoKnight (who has another 5 'straight upgrades' in terms of swords and Soldier who's just plain BAD in medieval mode and you're just better off using a Scout for x2 cap rate or the Equalizer/Disciplinary action is just better ) Even the Half Zatoichi is better for Soldier in Medieval Mode
You either learn the ways of the Pain Train or you ride it. Wait... is that what the spike is for? *My lawyers have advised me not to finish this comment*
The Pain Train will always have a special place in my heart thanks to a single game I had years ago where the match lasted too long and ended in a draw, so it turned into a melee-only team deathmatch to decide who wins. By the end it was just me, a lone Soldier carrying a board with a nail on the BLU Team VS an Engineer, a Spy, a Scout, and a Medic on the RED Team. Some sick dodges and many missed swings later, I was victorious, the last swing being a crit that obliterated the Spy as he attempted to trickstab me. Felt just like the Mayor of Train Town.
I’ve been hearing people singing the praises of the pain train for quite a while, so it’s nice to finally see a high quality, in-depth guide, and overview of the weapon
I feel like another point for the pain train is not only does it only work best on offense, but only if you’re playing with your team. If you’re playing as a roamer or trying to back cap, the bullet vulnerability means a lot more. With your mobility options taking away from your hp, and no medics or cart to keep you topped off, those burst damage options can become deadly a lot sooner.
Well, you could always sacrifice one of your weapons for mobility, rocket jumper as soldier is immensely punishing, sticky jumper as demo will make you fly across the map in a single jump and you will still have a primary weapon + close range self defense, or trimp with the tide turner if you are solarlight
i can say it only matters when you don't destroy a sentry fast enough or when the Heavy is looking up, which almost never happens besides if one intends to use the pain train to make full use of that cap speed they commit, so sticky jumper instead of stock and direct hit/loch n load to eadily deal with any type of sentry, and they know they are going to die, but the cap speed is enough for them to cap before that happens in short the pain train is the most valuable weapon if you intend to clutch the point, it's always worth switching to if the kart is very close to the point, and if you won without expecting it it's because some brave soul kept jumpin on that kart while some others were too busy getting their pick sometimed people forget there is an objective even in servers like uncletopia, which triggers me more often than i would like to say, it's like they completely forget that all classes are able to cap or push the kart and believe they can't help because an engi has to care of his buildings or a medic needs to wait for someone to heal
@@Duothimir wrong that's what happen if you don't play the game but spelling out number . i can also say you take 5 damage x N (5x30) ,since 5.5 will count as 6 by tf2 it end up 180(6x30) , A WHOLE 30HP = dead demo . don't forget overheal/heal/1vN/range/long period of time (capping). the truth is when other edge out an hard fought fight with 10/20 HP you don't , you are either fighting a noob can't even lay a finger on you or you get stomp so hard you die anyway .
Going on a backcap is a huge suicide mission nonetheless, and it's mostly soldiers and demos that jump back to the point to protect it from being backcapped (speaking from experience) and the bullet vulnerabilty ends up not even coming to play, and capping the point 40% faster while getting 10% more damage is a more than worthy tradeoff (since backcapping is almost a suicide mission, 40% faster capping might be the only thing that actually gets you the point). I've saved some lobbies by acknowledging and doing exactly this, so yeah. Pain train good
That little bit at the very end amuses me so much I love those moments of "wait I know we're on opposite teams but how did YOU lose that what the hell"
It's a shame that one downside of taking slightly more damage from bullets kill the fun of people using it. Tried it earlier and had a blast playing with it!
I wonder how people can have a blast using a weapon that doesn't change how you play the class you're on, you just capture the point slightly faster and die to bulletq slightly faster.
When I tried the Pain Train out I thought the 10% would be too little to matter, but I ended up definitely noticing it, dying just that crucial little bit earlier than my gamer instincts told me I should. I think damage thresholds don't matter with bullet damage because bullets are the games filler damage; tons of classes have it and use it for reliable hitscan spam, meaning you're always taking it in dribs and drabs, and that 10% ends up mattering.
I've been running the Pain Train on my Offensive Demoman loadout for years, for exactly the reasons you said: it's the only real option outside of Stock.
It's also good as an alternate trolldier primary. It does less damage meaning less self damage with extra push force for further rocket jumps, while still having the emergency capability. The extra ammo helps too. You do have to heal, but that can be done easily if you have a medic or are retreating to get more ammo. Just make sure to watch your health or you will die rocket jumping.
@@racheltoothaker3259It is factually, I mean you can enjoy it but there’s no situation it’s better than any other rocket launcher except for against the rocket jumper in damage.
While it doesn't directly cross damage thresholds on shotguns, shotguns rarely do max damage (due to needing to be extremely close). The extra damage you take let's the enemy kill you at longer range or if random bullet spread made some of their pellets miss. I do generally agree that pain train is better then most people think
>being akrei >playing sniper >getting mad at loch n load and quickiebomb >changes class >playing pyro >getting mad at direct hit >says he can reflect >he couldn't >gets mad again >"I just" - "like kids" (???) >calls cringe >states he has women >couldn't reflect a rocket again >refuses to elaborate further
I was reading the things he and Fish were saying in chat while doing impressions of Milton Waddams and Vincent Price respectively. Try it out, it's fun.
One issue I could see is that if you're on the objective, almost every member of the opposing team in the area is going to be targetting you. Damage numbers don't mean much of anything when you're being shot by a heavy, scout, and multiple others at once.
Having discussions about damage threshold often seems like a white room theory crafting thing to me. It's like, most fights in TF2 aren't simple onesie ones at full health. Often you're fighting multiple guys at once who are like half fighting you, and you're all bunched together around the payload
damage thresholds come up often in competitive settings and when you know your opponent is at full health, its something ingrained in your head when you play classes for a certain amount of time. its important to know how many shots maximum it will take to end an enemy gamer
they are very important because it's when it matters, he mentioned in the video that the times where the 10% vulnerabilty would mean something it's chip damage at medium range, because in other scenarios you are too far to die even with the pain train equipped or too close to survive even without a pain train, people just see a downside and easily become scared of it, but 10% is really nothing, especially for what you are supposed to do with the pain train
Pain train having guaranteed mini-crits while defending an objective (caps, cart, even against intelligence suitcase carriers why not) would be a fun addition to at least complement using it on defense in the non-ctf modes it is designed for. Would allow for some stylish explosive jump into mini-crit pain train landing defends too
I knew that this video was in the works for several weeks via the community posts. So I started to use the Pain train in various fashions. Pain train Knight was something that was originally cursed but I think started to gravitate towards it after I realized that while I might not be contributing to the amount of total kills my team has the added bulk of being a Demo Knight allowed me to survive defensive pushes by the enemy team and continue to push the cart faster than if I was stock. The goal of offense on payload is to get the cart to the end, if a weapon helps with that then why not run it if you have the ability to make a difference in that. I feel like more supportive roles in tf2 are overlooked by most players as it's not as fun to be passive. (Every team can use a medic, yet most people even when bottom scoring don't even consider switching to it) While the pain train is niche it does that niche well
We don't need 4 gibus spies on competitive 5cp can at least 3 of you switch of spy please I don't want to pocket the sol- GOD DAMMIT THE SOLDIER WENT GIBUS SPY
The only problem I have with the pain train is that when I rocket jump or sticky jump I tend to take a lot of damage and then proceed to somehow fly into a heavy that randomly has perfect tracking and is always revved up.
I think the pain train's problem is a combo of being only usable on select gamemodes, as mentioned. But also for not being an engaging item, like things from the market gardener, swords, even caber, do things when you hit people with them. but the pain train just sits in your pocket and does all the work. So its not really 'fun' So as you said its just really a weapon for when you want to win select gamemodes on select teams, otherwise you have to unequip it lest you be a little more fragile than normal.
Only issue I have with this is with the shotgun examples. Yes, there are no changes in break points with meatshots, but meatshots are only the ideal scenario for dealing damage. Most of the time you're going to only be landing Most of the pellets, which usually means you're going to be a couple dozen health short of a kill. The pain train's damage vulnerability requires less pellets to connect for a two shot, meaning you're going to be getting two shot more often
the pain train its like an umbrella, pretty useful when you need it, and useless when you dont, and makes you look like an idiot if you use it when it doesnt benefics you.
The pain train is a perfect example of a balanced weapon that isn’t actually balanced. Direct upgrade on offense, direct downgrade on defense, and completely useless all together because people play Team Deathmatch 2, not Team Fortress 2.
Easy balance fix: The Pain Train’s effects are only active in game modes its effect could work on and only on attack in the case of A/D. Otherwise it’s just reskinned stock. Don’t have to unequip it now unless you really want to use another weapon for a different effect.
I'm not completely sure, but a fully drawn huntsman shot should kill a pain train wielding demoman if it minicrits, as damage vulnerabilities stack with minicrits and the huntsman's 162 bullet damage (it uses bullet damage) would go to 178
I think the real reason that the pain train is bad/underused is because the benefit does not increase your combat capabilities at all, and most people don't actually care about winning the match, they just want to kill the enemy deader
Yup, agreed with all of the above. Good vid. Just a quick addendum cuz it's important: If we're talking the context of competitive sixes, especially on 5CP, it's probably best NOT to equip the Pain Train if you're playing the role of Pocket Soldier. Your primary job in that position is protecting the Medic and keeping Ubercharge building, not capping points. The Escape Plan is a better tool for that job, as the penalty to healing keeps Ubercharge building at maximum for much longer, and lets you keep up with the Medic without breaking the heal beam, again maintaining that charge rate. The Pain Train is probably the best melee option for Roamer Soldier and Demo in this format- Roamers can use it to back-cap like a Scout in a pinch, and Demoman's job is pushing enemies back anyway, so you might as well cap faster while you're doing it.
So? No long range, no heads?, no skullcutter "random" crits?, no gain 50% base health on kill? and this is for one shitty downside 1+ capture rate on wearer that only better in cp, payload maps and for the memes? Not worth it
@@Ascorbean Smartass, there are NO BULLETS NOR SYRINGES NOR FLARES in Mediveal Mode. It's what makes it MEDIVEAL MODE! The downside is non-existant for CHRIST'S sake!
one of my favorite "subclasses" that i believe ive come up with is the demokart. its just demoknight but you use the pain train and you completely ignore everything except the cart. its especially fun if you yell at people for capping the cart with out you and telling people not to push the cart because you got it. I have no idea if im the first one to come up with this but i havent seen anyone else do something similar.
I always have this one wonderful memory where I helped my team win on degree keep by hiding at the final capture point with it. And I just waited the whole time until i capped the point as quick as possible and everyone was suprised.
I think people straight up forget about this weapon and/or don't care enough to equip it. I literally swore to always use my pain train on demo when playing on offense because I have a strange killstreak one and I never remember to actually do it. When I got this idea I went to my loadout screen and equipped it, switched back to the ham on the defense round, and never equipped the pain train since then. I just remembered that I ever made that promise as I started writing this comment.
Love seeing the Pain Train get love. Can't tell you how often I've captured a point at double speed, utterly baffling the enemy team, who usually send one poor soul expecting a squishy scout to deal with me. Kaboom.
People like to think that 10% is negligible but it makes a big difference. Think about all those times where you got out of a fight with only 10 or 20 health. With the pain train dying in these scenarios is far more likely.
It's quite a simple weapon, but I've been a fan in the places it works for. Two of my Demo loadout presets are "Stock" and "Stock except for Pain Train", depending on which side I'm on (since I like Payload best). The other two are Demoknight setups.
I remember doing some maths with my friend on this. If you run the pain train with the battalions backup, the +20 health pretty much nullifies the downsides in that, you in essence have 198hp rather than 200hp, which is more or less completely ignorable. This is why I like running it with the black box as well, it can keep me capping for longer.
Funni Loadout - Base Jumper, Sticky Jumper, Pain Train, Airplane Costume. They are duking on the point meanwhile I soar through the sky majestically onto the point
It might be a coincidence but that intro made me realise that the pain train has a "point" (spike) it because helps capture the control points. Knowing the devs that's probably intentional and to a non native speaker such as myself I find that mind-blowing
The main problem with the Pain Train is that Demoman usually has much better things to do than capture the point, frankly. Demoman is better off avoiding the objective to lay traps so his team can capture safely. It's hilarious when you run it with the Sticky Jumper so you can just yeet yourself onto the objective at the last possible second to get a clutch cap, though. For Soldier, it has a more useful situational utility. He's usually more mobile than Demoman is, and has a larger healthpool, so he's more suited to going for last-minute backcaps. In the particular situation where he has the opportunity to equip it before zooming toward the point to capture the last sliver of objective, the Pain Train can often make the difference between winning and losing the game.
Leave it to the pain train to be so obscure that the soldier at the end has such intricate knowledge of the game that he knows you should’ve survived that shotgun shot with single digit health, but forgets that the pain train is what got you killed
While i agree with nearly everything you said, don't forget, tf2 is not a vacuum. You wont always be at full hp with only 1 target shooting at you. I am going to use the pain train more now though.
![[TF2] In Defense Of The Ambassador](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/odd5NY6UCR4/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] In Defense Of The Ambassador](/img/tr.png)
![[TF2] In Defense Of The Dalokohs Bar](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/jN_NrkjxruA/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] The Dragon's Fury: The Anti-Flamethrower](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/eAv_1tCzQYg/mqdefault.jpg)
It's always fun to see someone thinking they were just going to takedown some backcapping scout and then meet them with a bazooka.
RED team: We have a lvl3 sentry and nobody is in the vicinity of the kart and there's 5 seconds left
Me with a pain train, sticky jumper, and a loch n load, single handedly taking the the point
"hey scout can you run to E and kill that back capping scout"
"yea su-" gets killed by the direct hit instantly
Engie: "Hey Scout, an enemy scout is backcapping"
Scout: "Oh hell yea. We're doing th-"
*dies to a sticky trap
@@zanwrightmfwr756 didn't you see the bloody balls?
@@bruschetta7711 And then you got killed by Uganda, classic.
The problem with talking about damage thresholds, is that it works in a vaccuum, but youre almost never at full health.
Love the pfp Timeward!
yeah like. who on earth is ever hitting full ramp up meatshots on every single fight ever? shotgun damage is SUPER variable thanks to pellet spread and extreme differences in rampup and falloff. at lot of the time when you use a shotgun you'll be hitting 40-60 damage shots here and there. just think about all the time you've escaped a fight with
As a Demoknight submain, this is statement is super relevant.
Agreed. Especially considering the two classes equipping this weapon are the two best known for self-damage through sticky/rocket jumping.
No, bro. You don't understand. I always take exactly 90 damage from every shotgun blast without exception.
Direct upgrade to stock on offense.
Direct downgrade to stock on defense.
Perfectly balanced
As all weapons should be
I wouldn't call it a direct upgrade, as bullet vulnerability is somewhat significant.
Though, I guess it's a stock-Blutsauger situation.
Only on offence payload, since cart heals will offset the damage vulnerability.
just like my balls
@@theproblemmustbeinyourpant5910 Based rin pfp
Want to be *The* offence Soldier?
Pain train
Battalion’s Backup
Direct Hit
The capping capabilities of a Scout, the building destruction of a Demoman, and the mobility of a Roamer.
I have faced this load out as an engie multiple times before, I still have nightmares about it
Nice load out man!
maybe the gunboats instead of the backup, interchangeable
@@rettwat but of course it depends on the situation.
I was thinking of the same thing but instead of the direct hit it’s the beggars bazooka or stock since both of them can hit multiple buildings at once including the engineer
Well given there so many battle engie running around with uncle Dane’s battle engie video,
The actual downside of the pain train is that you need to remember to switch off of it when it's useless.
skill issue
that is the actual reason nobody uses it. if you gave it an extra effect for defense (prevents capping in an AOE -- which everyone can already do so also make the paintrain make you unable to be contested by non-paintrainners) people would use it
So didn't they add loadouts for this exact purpose like, ten years ago?
@@tabula_rosa being unable to contest against a paintrain would be a little overpowered and force other soldiers and demomen to use it too. And dont forget its your melee, meaning you can still use stuff like the batallions backup to safely cap a point, the gunboats to backcap the enemy, and maybe even the rocket jumper and shotgun for a buff scout, and a great backcap ability
@@Bobo-ox7fj they sure did
8:40 I'd like to mention that this is exactly one of those situations where the damage vulnerability caused you to die inches away from a health pack that would've saved you.
He was getting lasered by a heavy anyway, he'd probably survive 1 more bullet and die while getting even closer to the health pack lmao
@@TertiaryGuyFieri heavy was on high ground, after picking up the health kit he wouldve lost line of sight and its not like he can chase him down either so no, he wouldve definitely survived
No one gonna talk about how the pain train has a 10% damage vulnerability on WEARER. That means if it's equipped, like the bushwaka or the powerjack
@@sonny4978 that’s because it’s upside is also on wearer
@@sonny4978 thats literally what the video is about bro
i only wish the pain train had univerasal use; usable in all gamemodes and both teans. it could give a speed boost while carrying the intel. and for attack/defence, it could give some stat boost to red while standing on the objective. its just a bummer how often i have to unequip it
I could see it having something where on defense it helps push offense's bars back. Like, standing on a captured point causes the other side's meter buildup to drain faster and standing next to an unoccupied cart causes it to move backwards slightly faster.
I think a speed boost less than the escape plan but enough to make a difference but that might be a bit to powerful
Teans.
Maybe standing near a cart on defense could speed up the time it takes to start rolling back and on attack defend you can reduce the capture rate on the point more quickly if they failed to take it
On defense it could increase the range you have to block the capture. Being able to stop capture from twice as far away would help you defend without getting dangerously close, especially with the explosives demo and soldier use. Would work in both attack defend and payload.
"I can reflect" *Proceeds to lose every engagement*. Great video btw Fish, I was always curious why PT was always such a non pick cause it really turns class roles on their head mostly. Also do not forget that in Medieval mode this is just a straight upgrade across the board because there's no bullets to worry about.
@@Spyachungus Yeah but those weapons are burst damage anyways, so the downside wouldn't really matter either way.
If you get headshotted by a Huntsman, you're dead. Doesn't really matter what you had on you.
except that on defense, it's both a straight upgrade and a straight downgrade, making it maybe tf2's only straight sidegrade that isn't just a reskin :D
@@thomaskolar90 Third Degree? Idk
My hatred of random crits will always be the lesser of two evils compared to Soytopia servers.
"Straight upgrade" except it's literally useless on DemoKnight (who has another 5 'straight upgrades' in terms of swords and Soldier who's just plain BAD in medieval mode and you're just better off using a Scout for x2 cap rate or the Equalizer/Disciplinary action is just better ) Even the Half Zatoichi is better for Soldier in Medieval Mode
You either learn the ways of the Pain Train or you ride it. Wait... is that what the spike is for?
*My lawyers have advised me not to finish this comment*
yes
Sounding in team fortress 2 has always seemed like a strange case to me
@@Mr.Taco1111 One one hand if you like the way it feels but don't like the way it looks,its nice to have an option to change it.
💀
Cursed chat go brr
Can’t wait to see the pain train in game for a month
I use it on demo all the time
Can't wait to equip it on demo, unequip it when I'm not on BLU anymore and then forget it exists
As the seventh heavy enjoyer in the world, this bring smile to my face
What happened after a month?
@@Hell_O7 nothing, nobody knows this weapon exists lmao
"You're just using the most crutch loadouts"
Ah yes, because The DIRECT HIT of all weapons is a crutch
Fish be like: "This weapon is a crutch."
Then it turns out to be one of the most balanced weapons in the game.
@@Looona_fan Was referring to the comment he got in the video
@@evangelos4346 Oh
Casual. Just aim lol.
Never underestimate a pain train user, because YOU CANT STOP THE TRAIN FROM COMING THROUGH
Like a steam locomotive, yeah?
I'm burning hot
Like a steam locomotive, yeah
CANT STOP THE PAIN TRAIN BABY
SUPLEX THE TRAAAAAAIN
CHOO CHOO MOTHERFUKA!
I hope that CP joke is gonna age well
😢
that kid won't tho
Tell me pls
@@masterplasma5644 the reply above you already told everything you need to know son.
@@zanwrightmfwr756 ???
The Pain Train will always have a special place in my heart thanks to a single game I had years ago where the match lasted too long and ended in a draw, so it turned into a melee-only team deathmatch to decide who wins.
By the end it was just me, a lone Soldier carrying a board with a nail on the BLU Team VS an Engineer, a Spy, a Scout, and a Medic on the RED Team. Some sick dodges and many missed swings later, I was victorious, the last swing being a crit that obliterated the Spy as he attempted to trickstab me.
Felt just like the Mayor of Train Town.
you took em down to the pain train station in train town.......*drunken Scottish gibberish*
I’ve been hearing people singing the praises of the pain train for quite a while, so it’s nice to finally see a high quality, in-depth guide, and overview of the weapon
Yea its a good weapon, its just that people use it poorly, same with the scottish resistance!
I feel like another point for the pain train is not only does it only work best on offense, but only if you’re playing with your team. If you’re playing as a roamer or trying to back cap, the bullet vulnerability means a lot more. With your mobility options taking away from your hp, and no medics or cart to keep you topped off, those burst damage options can become deadly a lot sooner.
Well, you could always sacrifice one of your weapons for mobility, rocket jumper as soldier is immensely punishing, sticky jumper as demo will make you fly across the map in a single jump and you will still have a primary weapon + close range self defense, or trimp with the tide turner if you are solarlight
A whole 9 HP sooner, max.
i can say it only matters when you don't destroy a sentry fast enough or when the Heavy is looking up, which almost never happens
besides if one intends to use the pain train to make full use of that cap speed they commit, so sticky jumper instead of stock and direct hit/loch n load to eadily deal with any type of sentry, and they know they are going to die, but the cap speed is enough for them to cap before that happens
in short the pain train is the most valuable weapon if you intend to clutch the point, it's always worth switching to if the kart is very close to the point, and if you won without expecting it it's because some brave soul kept jumpin on that kart while some others were too busy getting their pick
sometimed people forget there is an objective even in servers like uncletopia, which triggers me more often than i would like to say, it's like they completely forget that all classes are able to cap or push the kart and believe they can't help because an engi has to care of his buildings or a medic needs to wait for someone to heal
@@Duothimir wrong that's what happen if you don't play the game but spelling out number .
i can also say you take 5 damage x N (5x30) ,since 5.5 will count as 6 by tf2 it end up 180(6x30) , A WHOLE 30HP = dead demo .
don't forget overheal/heal/1vN/range/long period of time (capping).
the truth is when other edge out an hard fought fight with 10/20 HP you don't , you are either fighting a noob can't even lay a finger on you or you get stomp so hard you die anyway .
Going on a backcap is a huge suicide mission nonetheless, and it's mostly soldiers and demos that jump back to the point to protect it from being backcapped (speaking from experience) and the bullet vulnerabilty ends up not even coming to play, and capping the point 40% faster while getting 10% more damage is a more than worthy tradeoff (since backcapping is almost a suicide mission, 40% faster capping might be the only thing that actually gets you the point). I've saved some lobbies by acknowledging and doing exactly this, so yeah. Pain train good
That little bit at the very end amuses me so much
I love those moments of "wait I know we're on opposite teams but how did YOU lose that what the hell"
it was a perfect homage to Soundsmith I agree
It's a shame that one downside of taking slightly more damage from bullets kill the fun of people using it. Tried it earlier and had a blast playing with it!
havent seen you in a while.
I wonder how people can have a blast using a weapon that doesn't change how you play the class you're on, you just capture the point slightly faster and die to bulletq slightly faster.
@@vivelespatat2670 I wonder how people forget everyone has fun in different ways than one another
@@vivelespatat2670So basically Heavy in a nutshell
14:01 i just went through so many emotions at once
We will never get another series like that... sooner or later this will happen to the how it feels series... if only valve updates the game....
@@z1u512 what
@@z1u512 thats great actually, stereotypes series overall aged poorly from my perspective
@@turkishjanitor3666 And from SoundSmith’s, too
When I tried the Pain Train out I thought the 10% would be too little to matter, but I ended up definitely noticing it, dying just that crucial little bit earlier than my gamer instincts told me I should. I think damage thresholds don't matter with bullet damage because bullets are the games filler damage; tons of classes have it and use it for reliable hitscan spam, meaning you're always taking it in dribs and drabs, and that 10% ends up mattering.
I've been running the Pain Train on my Offensive Demoman loadout for years, for exactly the reasons you said: it's the only real option outside of Stock.
clearly the Scottish Handshake is on top
I wish the pyro could use it too, funnily enough he's the class it was originally designed for
The best part about the Liberty Launcher is that you still have fun with it, besides the damage decrease. It definitely keeps pyros on their toes.
It's also good as an alternate trolldier primary. It does less damage meaning less self damage with extra push force for further rocket jumps, while still having the emergency capability. The extra ammo helps too. You do have to heal, but that can be done easily if you have a medic or are retreating to get more ammo. Just make sure to watch your health or you will die rocket jumping.
I honestly don’t think the liberty launcher is bad
@@racheltoothaker3259It is factually, I mean you can enjoy it but there’s no situation it’s better than any other rocket launcher except for against the rocket jumper in damage.
9:51 dont we just all love the tf2 community? Truly some of the best people in the whole wordl
@@wilymuppet8941 Ehm I wasn’t talking about that, check the chat
"God endorces the Pain-Train only" -CasualTF2
While it doesn't directly cross damage thresholds on shotguns, shotguns rarely do max damage (due to needing to be extremely close). The extra damage you take let's the enemy kill you at longer range or if random bullet spread made some of their pellets miss. I do generally agree that pain train is better then most people think
12:23 that poor spy lol.
>being akrei
>playing sniper
>getting mad at loch n load and quickiebomb
>changes class
>playing pyro
>getting mad at direct hit
>says he can reflect
>he couldn't
>gets mad again
>"I just" - "like kids" (???)
>calls cringe
>states he has women
>couldn't reflect a rocket again
>refuses to elaborate further
I was reading the things he and Fish were saying in chat while doing impressions of Milton Waddams and Vincent Price respectively. Try it out, it's fun.
I love using the Pain Train with the Sticky Jumper to jump on the point in Koth and destroy everyone with the Iron Bomber.
One issue I could see is that if you're on the objective, almost every member of the opposing team in the area is going to be targetting you. Damage numbers don't mean much of anything when you're being shot by a heavy, scout, and multiple others at once.
dude hit me back to reality with that one single word, Stereotype.
Having discussions about damage threshold often seems like a white room theory crafting thing to me. It's like, most fights in TF2 aren't simple onesie ones at full health. Often you're fighting multiple guys at once who are like half fighting you, and you're all bunched together around the payload
damage thresholds come up often in competitive settings and when you know your opponent is at full health, its something ingrained in your head when you play classes for a certain amount of time. its important to know how many shots maximum it will take to end an enemy gamer
"Onesie ones" do... do you mean 1v1s?
they are very important because it's when it matters, he mentioned in the video that the times where the 10% vulnerabilty would mean something it's chip damage at medium range, because in other scenarios you are too far to die even with the pain train equipped or too close to survive even without a pain train, people just see a downside and easily become scared of it, but 10% is really nothing, especially for what you are supposed to do with the pain train
@@captainweekend5276 yes, I have an accent and I was using voice-to-text
@@Nagasakevideo lol sorry, I thought it was a very odd malapropism.
Just a heads up, it should be +10% vulnerability in the graphic. Minus vulnerability is adding resistance to damage.
Pain train having guaranteed mini-crits while defending an objective (caps, cart, even against intelligence suitcase carriers why not) would be a fun addition to at least complement using it on defense in the non-ctf modes it is designed for.
Would allow for some stylish explosive jump into mini-crit pain train landing defends too
I knew that this video was in the works for several weeks via the community posts. So I started to use the Pain train in various fashions. Pain train Knight was something that was originally cursed but I think started to gravitate towards it after I realized that while I might not be contributing to the amount of total kills my team has the added bulk of being a Demo Knight allowed me to survive defensive pushes by the enemy team and continue to push the cart faster than if I was stock. The goal of offense on payload is to get the cart to the end, if a weapon helps with that then why not run it if you have the ability to make a difference in that. I feel like more supportive roles in tf2 are overlooked by most players as it's not as fun to be passive. (Every team can use a medic, yet most people even when bottom scoring don't even consider switching to it) While the pain train is niche it does that niche well
I love being one of the guys who will try to help the team in a _TEAM_-based game.
We don't need 4 gibus spies on competitive 5cp can at least 3 of you switch of spy please I don't want to pocket the sol- GOD DAMMIT THE SOLDIER WENT GIBUS SPY
Nobody can stop the pain train baby!
It’s an objective stick.
If you have played Well then you may have gotten some *pain* caused by a *train*
With this the enemy will contract tetanus and will freeze every now and then
The only problem I have with the pain train is that when I rocket jump or sticky jump I tend to take a lot of damage and then proceed to somehow fly into a heavy that randomly has perfect tracking and is always revved up.
The pain train made no difference in the situation tho you’d be dead regardlesslol
You'd die either way
I think the pain train's problem is a combo of being only usable on select gamemodes, as mentioned. But also for not being an engaging item, like things from the market gardener, swords, even caber, do things when you hit people with them. but the pain train just sits in your pocket and does all the work. So its not really 'fun' So as you said its just really a weapon for when you want to win select gamemodes on select teams, otherwise you have to unequip it lest you be a little more fragile than normal.
Only issue I have with this is with the shotgun examples. Yes, there are no changes in break points with meatshots, but meatshots are only the ideal scenario for dealing damage. Most of the time you're going to only be landing Most of the pellets, which usually means you're going to be a couple dozen health short of a kill. The pain train's damage vulnerability requires less pellets to connect for a two shot, meaning you're going to be getting two shot more often
I'm gonna go ahead and buy a strange pain train now before they skyrocket in price after this video
the pain train its like an umbrella, pretty useful when you need it, and useless when you dont, and makes you look like an idiot if you use it when it doesnt benefics you.
Always felt this about the pain train, glad to see someone do a proper analysis of it!
Now that "In Defense Of" is a series that Fish is putting more effort in, I will wait patiently for In Defense Of the Dalokohs Bar.
The dalokohs sucks
I second this
Wish granted
The pain train is a perfect example of a balanced weapon that isn’t actually balanced. Direct upgrade on offense, direct downgrade on defense, and completely useless all together because people play Team Deathmatch 2, not Team Fortress 2.
8:39 "which is not great for *close self-range defense* "
Easy balance fix: The Pain Train’s effects are only active in game modes its effect could work on and only on attack in the case of A/D. Otherwise it’s just reskinned stock. Don’t have to unequip it now unless you really want to use another weapon for a different effect.
I'm not completely sure, but a fully drawn huntsman shot should kill a pain train wielding demoman if it minicrits, as damage vulnerabilities stack with minicrits and the huntsman's 162 bullet damage (it uses bullet damage) would go to 178
I think the real reason that the pain train is bad/underused is because the benefit does not increase your combat capabilities at all, and most people don't actually care about winning the match, they just want to kill the enemy deader
14:01 I just got PTSD flashbacks from just those few music notes.
Pain train inflicts pain to anybody on defense, and any salty Uncletopia player that has the audacity to play 5CP!
I love the subtle "giving SoundSmith PTSD" sound effect you slipped in there
Time to fat scout as Solider and Demoman
Yup, agreed with all of the above. Good vid.
Just a quick addendum cuz it's important:
If we're talking the context of competitive sixes, especially on 5CP, it's probably best NOT to equip the Pain Train if you're playing the role of Pocket Soldier. Your primary job in that position is protecting the Medic and keeping Ubercharge building, not capping points. The Escape Plan is a better tool for that job, as the penalty to healing keeps Ubercharge building at maximum for much longer, and lets you keep up with the Medic without breaking the heal beam, again maintaining that charge rate. The Pain Train is probably the best melee option for Roamer Soldier and Demo in this format- Roamers can use it to back-cap like a Scout in a pinch, and Demoman's job is pushing enemies back anyway, so you might as well cap faster while you're doing it.
Pain Train is meta in Mediveal Mode if you're on the offensive trying to capture points!
So? No long range, no heads?, no skullcutter "random" crits?, no gain 50% base health on kill? and this is for one shitty downside 1+ capture rate on wearer that only better in cp, payload maps and for the memes? Not worth it
@@Ascorbean Smartass, there are NO BULLETS NOR SYRINGES NOR FLARES in Mediveal Mode. It's what makes it MEDIVEAL MODE! The downside is non-existant for CHRIST'S sake!
@@Ascorbean So, no head?
@@ryanymous2138 did i said something about the downside?
@@spiceforspice3461 No heads?
the pain train is incredibly broken in medieval mode, due to the complete lack of bullets.
Just hearing that little jingle in the video was enough to make me nostalgic
WE HAVE BEEN OVERLOOOKED FOR FAR TOO LONG. OUR TIME HAS COME.
”Wait”
”What”
”How did you die”
”MAAAGIC”
😂
2:30 - can we drop the Pain Train conversation to just say what a solid Battalion Backup play that was? Love to see a teamworking Soldier.
I have never played a single second of TF2, but these game design/meta analysis vids just do something for me.
one of my favorite "subclasses" that i believe ive come up with is the demokart. its just demoknight but you use the pain train and you completely ignore everything except the cart. its especially fun if you yell at people for capping the cart with out you and telling people not to push the cart because you got it. I have no idea if im the first one to come up with this but i havent seen anyone else do something similar.
Or a CP to… top 10 last things before the end
It's a perfect example of a sidegrade, it's exceeds in some situations and lacks in others
I always have this one wonderful memory where I helped my team win on degree keep by hiding at the final capture point with it. And I just waited the whole time until i capped the point as quick as possible and everyone was suprised.
in defense of my pain train:
its hales own
that is all
I think people straight up forget about this weapon and/or don't care enough to equip it. I literally swore to always use my pain train on demo when playing on offense because I have a strange killstreak one and I never remember to actually do it. When I got this idea I went to my loadout screen and equipped it, switched back to the ham on the defense round, and never equipped the pain train since then. I just remembered that I ever made that promise as I started writing this comment.
Love seeing the Pain Train get love. Can't tell you how often I've captured a point at double speed, utterly baffling the enemy team, who usually send one poor soul expecting a squishy scout to deal with me.
Kaboom.
Yeah, you could say the biggest downside for Soldier is the opportunity cost of not equipping three of his other most powerful melees.
12:28 Closest thing would be Rocket/Sticky Jumper being unable to pick up the intelligence, so you have mobility but can't capture at all
"The point is the point of the pain train. Specifically the capture point."
Also the nail.
14:00 man just turned into Soundsmith.
That stereotype music cue certainly gave me an emotion
Bro that poor spy @ 12:52 lmao
that soundsmith stereotype music at 14:01...
sends me back honestly
People like to think that 10% is negligible but it makes a big difference. Think about all those times where you got out of a fight with only 10 or 20 health. With the pain train dying in these scenarios is far more likely.
0:30 I was not expecting that amusing quip
I always use the pain train on offense. On symmetrical gamemodes I don’t like it much
It's quite a simple weapon, but I've been a fan in the places it works for.
Two of my Demo loadout presets are "Stock" and "Stock except for Pain Train", depending on which side I'm on (since I like Payload best). The other two are Demoknight setups.
I remember doing some maths with my friend on this. If you run the pain train with the battalions backup, the +20 health pretty much nullifies the downsides in that, you in essence have 198hp rather than 200hp, which is more or less completely ignorable.
This is why I like running it with the black box as well, it can keep me capping for longer.
Celebration and glad noises, it be another "In Defense of..." video, celebration and glad noises!
14:02 I love how you used the bgm from the Soundsmith video for that reference lol
I think hearing “stereotype” at the end activated my flight or fight response
Funni Loadout - Base Jumper, Sticky Jumper, Pain Train, Airplane Costume. They are duking on the point meanwhile I soar through the sky majestically onto the point
"What is the point?"
**zooms in on the tip of the spike**
Sir, you are a comedy genius
Strange Pain Trains are now $0.18. Thank you, Fish
haven't heard much about the pain train before, but it will probably be my favorite demo melee now
"you only play the most crutch loadouts"
gets smacked by the liberty launcher
Payload? Control points? Map Objectives? What even are those? I only understand senseless violence
Me using a set of Black Box, Battalion's Backup, and Pain Train : "What bullet vulnerability?"
on damage thresholds: as we know soldier and demoman are at max health 100% of the time and every shotgun shot does max damage all the time
"A Stereotype, if you will!"
*uses the leitmotif from SoundSmith's Stereotypes theme*
i actually had no idea the effects were passive, that changes a lot
Best moment is going dustbowl with pain train and sticky jumper and just back capping
Why is the thumbnail of a wooden stick with a nail on it made me so excited
It might be a coincidence but that intro made me realise that the pain train has a "point" (spike) it because helps capture the control points. Knowing the devs that's probably intentional and to a non native speaker such as myself I find that mind-blowing
The main problem with the Pain Train is that Demoman usually has much better things to do than capture the point, frankly. Demoman is better off avoiding the objective to lay traps so his team can capture safely. It's hilarious when you run it with the Sticky Jumper so you can just yeet yourself onto the objective at the last possible second to get a clutch cap, though.
For Soldier, it has a more useful situational utility. He's usually more mobile than Demoman is, and has a larger healthpool, so he's more suited to going for last-minute backcaps. In the particular situation where he has the opportunity to equip it before zooming toward the point to capture the last sliver of objective, the Pain Train can often make the difference between winning and losing the game.
Leave it to the pain train to be so obscure that the soldier at the end has such intricate knowledge of the game that he knows you should’ve survived that shotgun shot with single digit health, but forgets that the pain train is what got you killed
It was actually the roller that he had shot though. It popped up the suicide killfeed rather than shotgun.
While i agree with nearly everything you said, don't forget, tf2 is not a vacuum. You wont always be at full hp with only 1 target shooting at you. I am going to use the pain train more now though.
It might have been worth mentioning the Panic Attack's damage for this comparison since it does do a lot of damage if all pellets hit.