Pvz2 has the fundementally kinda messed up 50 sun meta while pvz1 has an issue with 90% of special zombies being absurdly weak, and then both of them have like half the plants being ridiculously above or below average
@@manachromeYT Accidentally wrote a massive wall of text but TL:DR: 50 sun meta kinda messes everything up in both difficulty and plant balance. I don't think that's right. The game is fast paced exactly BECAUSE the 50 sun meta forced the level design to spam strong zombies as fast as possible to compete with the sheer amount of sun you make and even then the spam isn't enough because Instas exist. 50 sun meta though can definitely be fun completely messes up the difficulty and the balance of the game. Like for a level in 50 sun meta to be actually difficult it needs to either: A) spam constantly the absolute strongest zombies possible (and even then I doubt the level would be that difficult because Instas) B) assault you and rush you down as soon as the level starts with so many zombies so early that it feels impossible to properly defend (and even then there's ways to counter this and it will most likely leave the second half of the level feeling piss easy by comparison) Or C) adding some harsh instant loss condition like the "don't lose more than X plants" or "don't spend more than X amount of sun" or some other thing like the blueprints in Steam Ages from Reflourished, but even then this could be really annoying, potentially repetitive, and you need to bunch it up with one of the previous 2 points to make it truly hard And that's just the effect it has on difficulty, it also completely fucks plant balance in multiple ways: 1) Because of the zombie spam, every plant that doesn't have splash damage becomes way worse than it would be otherwise. 2) Every single plant that is extremely powerful but expensive almost doesn't have a downside anymore and they basically trivialize the mid-late game of each stage (they're a bit akward to use in levels that try to rush you down early but still there's ways around it), and because of that mods with 50 sun meta are forced to nerf them and increase their cooldown so you can't just spam them which is sorta akward and makes them a bit less fun imo. 3) Every single plant that is meant to be cheap but have relatively low value for its cost basically becomes useless because its upside barely matters. 4) Because of the higher sun generation and the tightly packed zombie spam all the heavy duty Instas become way stronger, SPECIALLY cherry bomb. Their downside of a higher cost compared to cheaper instas doesn't matter outside of the very early game, and the zombie spam makes them feel borderline necessary sometimes. 5) Because you make so much sun anyways using secondary sun producers doesn't ever feel necessary to use the more expensive plants, but if you DO use secondary sun producers you practically make infinite money This also generates a way bigger skill gap between the best and worse players, which while that's maybe what you want I'm not sure it's quite it for a casual game like this. Good players that know how to properly farm sun will demolish almost all stages with practically no issue by spamming the strongest expensive while while people that do not know proper sun production strats will get run over and resort to much weaker cost effective plants like Lighting Reed that are simply not enough against a large chunk of the actually hard stages. Tl;dr: 50 sun meta is wigigity wiggity wack yo that shit's ßuzzin fr
@@InsertFunnyThingHere I still prefer it as well it just feels nicer for thr difficulty. Personally cherry bomb should only be able to deal 900 damage in my mind and many instas should be clean up not a free get out of jail. Which is why in a game Im going to develop currently in a coding class for csharp. Aka the same language that terraria uses. Although the meta is still a faster version of a 25 sun meta mostly without sun drops as scraps don't come from the sky.
@@manachromeYT I think Cherry bomb would need a nerf even in a 25 sun meta context (as long as the game is actually somewhat hard and not the extended tutorial that was pvz1) as it outclasses pretty much all of the other heavy duty Instas (not counting the ones that are literally just cherry bomb but better and the modern pvz2 seediums because those are so blatantly overpowered in every possible angle and approach that it's hard to take them seriously in a balancing discussion) but I'm not sure if reducing it's damage too much is quite the solution. I would advocate for making Cherry bomb equally as strong but with a much larger cooldown and cost, so it's more of a press in case of emergency button that you can basically only use once or twice in the entire level but at a big cost, but idk I'm not really a game designer I just notice when a game is almost forcing me to use one set of plants over another
@@InsertFunnyThingHere Very good breakdown of the 50 sun meta, the key point to take here is that faster sun production = more zombie spam to keep up difficulty = instas become OP and single target becomes trash. Reflourished is still fun as vanilla spammy game, and AltVerz is also good 25 meta. Personally, I think PVZ2 is thought of as faster pace because it literally has a fast forward button.
I think the issue is less about how balanced each plant is and moreso how intricate the gameplay is. With PVZ1, many of the stronger plants either require more strategy/effort than usual (Starfruit, Garlic, etc.) or more time to set up (most of the "Upgrade" Plants) compared to the weaker, more straightforward plants. Alot of the plants (even the weaker ones) provide unique gameplay strategies, and the game overall gives the player way more time to breathe & set up their defense the way they like it. It's very user-friendly, and makes for a game you can enjoy regardless of what strategies you'd like to use. With PVZ2, many of the stronger plants require little effort to set up & perform ridiculously well regardless of what strategy you use (its especially broken regarding the Primal plants), and the zombie spam makes the meta so limited that you're forced to ignore alot of the weaker plants with unique gameplay strategies (Pea Pod, Citron, Spore-Shroom) and instead just use the same plants over and over bc they can actually get you through the level (Snapdragon, Winter Melon, Cherry Bomb). Due to both the levels' lightning-fast pace & massive level count (~300 levels in Adventure Mode alone is pretty insane with how little gameplay variety there is), you're more focused on just rushing through the level than building a creative/satisfying defense, which I feel makes for a game that's still pretty decent, but harder to enjoy compared to the first.
I personally think that PVZ 2 doesn't need to be balanced. Arena and Penny's pursuit require those op plants. Often times, they're not even nearly enough. The same can be said about levelling system.
Honestly it probably doesn’t need the balancing, but what ends up being an issue is just how necessary some Plants are for the said Arena and Penny’s Pursuit modes. If you don’t use what’s good in those gamemodes, you’re probably gonna suffer heavily 😭
WARNING:I HAVEN'T PLAYED PVZ2 FOR A LONG TIME SO I MIGHT FORGET THE PLANT NAMES Surprisingly, dusk lobber is one of the op plants for no reason(only arena and with moonflower).
@@oshirothebubble It IS really good. Tile turnip, primal potato mine and dusk lobber (and the sun producers ofc) are some of the adventure mode plants that are also frequently used in arena.
@@SylviaYSIHonestly, from my experience, arena is perfectly fine even if you don't have the best plants, and for Penny's Pursuit, literally all you need is Torchwood and Pea Vine. Mega Gat and Appeasemint help a lot, but Appeasemint is unnecessary, and I've actually found that Threepeater works as a decent substitute because of its plant food.
In Bfn, the snipers make it so hard to play any class that doesn't have a shield or can flank, and night cap/brainium basher don't even work against them, so you have to play citron/all star, or chomper.
I never really thought about how strong the snipers are in BFN but kinda true honestly. Heavily depends on the map though, in some of them it's pretty easy to flank them with basically any character and take them down, while in others the entire map is a glorified sightline and the second a competent sniper hits the field the entire match goes down the drain
And with how overtuned the tanks and Chomper are… yeah it’s a never-ending loop of playing meta against meta, which ends up being frustrating after a while
PVZ3 will start out fine, at least if we’re considering what plants will be added. Though I’m sure in the future (should it receive one) things’ll get a bit worse 😭
yeah but it legit took a couple years of updates for the meta to get stupid and with powerful instas being locked to power ups and the 1 sun (aka 25 sun meta) will allow things like winter melon to be fair again
Personally the balancing for me wasn't exactly the appeal of pvz, it was everything else surrounding it, I just enjoy the games as they are, though modern Pvz2 definitely contains balancing that makes the game worse.
So, the intro sound is a Scientist teleporting SFX, followed up by a pitfall and a critical vanquish sound from BFN. I figured it’d match what I wanted to show in my intro
Yeah, I see the critique a lot on PvZ 2 being unbalanced and don’t get me wrong it definitely gets way worse after Modern Day, but even in the Og, PvZ ain’t a balanced game given Doom Shroom and Puffshroom exists.
8:45 DONT forget that some plants feel better then others,depute their rarity.Say for instance,berry blast,A COMMON CARD,is stronger then Starch Lord,a rare card
plantern works in shorter levels and in the early game. otherwise, blover is better because he doesn't take up real estate and doesn't need to be protected
@@alejanproh2961 eh I'm not sure I agree, protecting plantern isn't really that hard and the space wasted isn't really a big deal most of the time, but yeah Blover is perfectly fine as a defogger and is good role compression when Balloon zombie is involved, and really it's just a personal preference thing imo. You can also just like not have a defogger at all because the fog doesn't change that much, but you have so many plant slots in pvz1 that there's not really a reason not to bring one
@InsertFunnyThingHere it gets progressively harder to defend the longer the level goes on. and plantern needs to be placed near the front, which makes it get in the way of puff, and fume setups and just your front line in general. also, these problems become way more noticeable when playing a more difficult mod, to the point where blover would be viable even at double the cost
@@alejanproh2961Not sure about mods but yeah plantern is a bit akward to use, but it's so much more cost effective than spamming Blover (even accounting for the cost of protecting plantern)that I sorta struggle to call it straight up worse. Even in longer levels you don't always have the money to make the sun you use up on Blover just fully expendable. I still believe it's mostly a personal preference type thing, i'm not sure how it is in hard mods, but that's sorta a different thing entirely.
Honestly I agree with this, as nice as balancing would be for some of these games it’s not necessarily needed for a fun experience. Hell, I play GW1 a lot right now, and I’d argue that game is more unbalanced than anything else in this franchise besides PVZ2 😭 I personally prefer Blover, but Plantern is way better long-term so I get that there
PVZ1 I think I can understand the power creep of, given that the level progression means you often have to (or are incensivised to) use the lesser ones before you get the fully powered one. And it's only really felt with the fog plants to me.
i feel like each mainline pvz game is a different game with the same concept. in pvz1 you slowly build up your strategy to be able to with stand the zombies it's all about the execution of setting up your defense then the pay off of your plants all work together to create your cleverly crafted plan to stop the zombies from being able to get through and as you unlock new stuff it feels like your progressing each level and each time you get more and more plants that are change something either you get a plant that's able to be used to help you set up your plan to make it easier to do so or maybe it's a high sun cost plant that's able to make it so you get an iron clad defense down that the zombies cannot get through or it's a plant to counter the new threat. in pvz1 is a slow build up to an unstoppable step up that the zombies cannot get past and the slow build makes it satisficing to finally set it all up this is why the meta is the way it is plants like puff make it super easy to set up and make it so even at night you can place more sun producers to still set up that end game but also why plants like tallnut are so good because they are able to act as a barrier to either stall out until you get a good defense or to make sure your defense holds against anything the game throughs at you this is why gargantuar is such a impactful zombie in pvz1 it's the only zombie that's able to tank even your strongest plants and it's able to crush your defense. now for pvz2 instead of a slow set up it's all about feeling powerful pvz2 at first is a VERY hard game as you feel like your getting rushed down as the zombies keep swarming you making it frustrating but once your able to optimize sun production and realize and fully utilize the 50 sun meta the game has those ones strong threats become paper weights as your powerful plants wipe the floor with the zombies instead of slowly building up an iron wall your quickly building a nuke this is why some plants aren't' as good sense tallnut is all about making sure zombies cannot pass but that doesn't work in a game where your instead trying to make sure zombies are being quickly gunned down this is why instas are so much better in that game because it makes it so if you normally don't have the fire power you can just blow your problem right up this is also why winter melon is so good because it slows down zombies and dose heavy damage to the screen this is why gargantaurs are once again important but not for the same reason instead of being that threating brute of a zombie it's now a disguise of a threating brute but really there just there to make it feel like you can take on the strongest threats it's there to be the big scary zombie but the thing is your plants are there to look very powerful once you get good at the game they become easy to deal with as you use instas to quickly blow them up with two plants or to blow them up once and leave them weakened and alone making your plants quickly able to kill them this is also why objectives are important to the game it makes the game fresh and difficult again so you have to use that power you have to adjust to new things. now those two pvz games had one thing is common it made you feel powerful but in different ways pvz1 makes it so you slowly build up a huge defense while pvz2 starts really hard but once you know how to play it becomes an easy game but you feel so powerful because those once huge threats are now being mowed down. pvz was never about the balance it was about the feeling of POWER and feeling powerful is fun. the people who gave up on pvz2 never got to feel the feeling of it sense they gave up so quickly but the fans of it endured and then liked the game because they over came the learning curve. this is why EVERYONE hates pvz3 you never once feel powerful there's no heavy attackers and they just spam a bunch of weak zombies most of the time and the only time you WOULD feel powerful is ruined because you feel the guilt of using a powerup aka the only source of a lot of power it doesn't feel earned this is why lighting reed is the best plant because of the way the game is designed it HAS to be good do the game constantly throwing out what lighting reed counters weak zombie spam. and there's my yap session about a game where plants are able to kill robots the size of houses.
I think what makes PvZ2's balancing issues more notorious is: 1.- BattleZ becoming unfair to play against children who use their mom's credit card to buy Pokra and level it to Mastery 200 2.- The lack of care for balance making some plants so ridiculously broken playing Adventure (or hell, even Pursuit) with them becomes a joke, and others so horribly bad it's not even fun to use them to challenge oneself 3.- And of course, the HUGE diffence in power or utility between Adventure/Gemium and Premium/Seedium plants. Just compare Bonk Choy to Pokra, or Pea Pod to Mega Gattling, or Chomper AND Tall-nut to Guard-Shroom, and let's not even get into the mints... At least in PvZ1 there wasn't a true win button: Winter Melon is hard to set up at night, while Puff-shroom is mostly relegated to early game stalling at day levels
PVZ 1 was fairly balanced, it's just that the game isn't particularly hard. The issues were existant, but they weren't as bad as PVZ 2 or any other game if being honest...
As someone who plays Heroes, Puff Shroom costing more than 0 makes them kind of bad, but Puff Shroom costing less than 1 makes them really strong for a number of reasons. This also goes for Lil’ Buddy, another currently 0-cost plant. If they wanted to balance them better, they’d have to make much more nuanced changes, but the leaked patch notes only contain cost and stat changes so, RIP.
while PVZ 1 doesnt have a best balancing issues it doesnt really matter to me it all matters is that its a really fun game for players of all skill levels since this game supposedly one of the most beginner friendly strategy games especially for people does not know which strategy game should they start with and are afraid to think most of the other strategy games might be too complicated for them so yeah I think PVZ might be the least complicated of all strategy games especially for the first game it was dead easy
They managed to power creep Lily pad for some strange reason. Next plant they need to add is just a wall that poisons zombies so they can power creep endurain
You can't talk about Bfn without noticing the HORROR of sunflowers healing. If any plant with more than 75 health is being healed by a sunflower than plant becomes practically invincible, and the sunflower becomes TOP priority. And pray to the lord if you meet two sunflowers connected to each other. (Wrote this after dealing with a match of around 6 sunflowers).
Overhealth (and honestly, the healers in general) is genuinely a major problem of BFN. Pockets can be easily dealt with on their own, but when they have the right upgrades on they’re pretty damn frustrating to fight. Even so, I don’t overall find them that bad, when people very rarely play the most annoying way you can with them
@@SylviaYSI I would say scientists aren't that infuriating as they can't heal mid-fight, I really do think the sunflowers healbeam disconnects when the sunflower gets hit.
I think having broken plants is fun and mostly fine in a casual single player game like this, but it's a bit of a shame how many plants are straight up terrible and unusable despite their cool concepts and/or designs. It's specially an issue in PVZ2 and some PVZ2 mods because at some point the levels are designed around the broken plants and they feel almost mandatory.
Over time, I’ve kinda grown to love the jank of it all. Yes, these games can be frustrating sometimes, but it’s also the same franchise that allows you to pull off some of the funniest things ever (lawn full of tiny shrooms shredding hordes of zombies, as an example)
9:03 Yes, Bonk is still OP, but lightning was nerfed in the cys update.. he’s kinda mid now, sunflower was buffed a bit too, sun shroom is just not usable outside of Nightime. THE MOST IMPORTANT thing to note is that in montly article they said they would rebalance plants, let’s see how that turns out! They also said togganle grapes of wrath and more plants, but this is for balancing
I feel like a main difference between PVZ and all these other games in the series (aside from adventure I think) that make up for this is the fact that it wasn’t really competitive in comparison to every other game, and enjoyment ofc. Pvz2 has arena, BFN, GW, GW2, and Heroes’s main attractions are mostly fighting other people online, and if I remember correctly as of typing this, they have a little competitive scene with PVZ3 when it comes to beaten levels in certain time. PVZ1 slides off this Scott free for said reason, and it does make sense. (Not counting the Vs mode on the consoles btw.)
Well Sometimes unbalancing can be good, legendary characters in plants vs zombies garden warfare 2 is a good example because it makes the game more exciting when you unlock one
The balancing is just one of the reasons i liked bfn. As much as we love Gw2, we need to agree that it is junky. It kinda feels unfinished. Bfn looked like a step up from it, even when it excluded the variants.
YO SYLVIA PLEASE JOIN THE PVZ GW2 FIESTA AND YOU, YES YOU THE GUY THAT IS READING THIS; THE DATE OF THE FIESTA IS 14 SEP, THE RULES IS JUST OPEN THE GAME AND TRY PLAYING AS MUCH AS YOU CANN AND TELL ALL OF YOUR FRIENDS ABOUT THIS
Pvz2 is a game that is much harder, has zombies that puff shroom cannot take down at all and many of them, gives you much more sun so a free attacker has less value, and heavily nerfed Puff Shroom in basically every angle while giving it not a whole lot in return, and Puff Shroom is still a perfectly good plant and arguably above average. I don't think the lack of difficulty in PVZ1 is why puff shroom is considered overpowered Also for the record even outside of night levels puff shroom is still a good plant just for being a free meatshield, specially when combined with any slowing effect
@@manachromeYT ah heck nah bruh theres only a couple of plants that would even be able to DEAL with jester. fume shroom and spikeweed in the main mode and instants and your in NIGHT levels where sun is hard to get the issue with pvz 1 is that it's specials are HARD countered by some plants
Puff-Shroom is genuinely busted. Bear in mind that the Plant itself costs 0 sun, can be placed in daytime levels and act as a free stall even when it’s sleeping, and it has one of the lowest cooldowns for PVZ1. If that doesn’t sound like a really strong Plant to you, then I’m not sure what does
PvZ2 balancing is something that I think is beyond saving
The only stuff that’s unbalanced are the premiums the rest are well rounded
And primal potato mines
Seediums are balanced around power creep which is the same system btd6 uses. Almost as if without certain things the game gets unbalanced
@@tailzgimer1726 and winter melon and cherry bomb but most of all LEVELING
@@manachromeYT sense when did bloons td6 have power creep (beside the paragons)
@@dakotacornish6616 corvus geraldo dark sun Temple darlting gunner yes these weren't originally in the game. And beast handler
Pvz2 has the fundementally kinda messed up 50 sun meta while pvz1 has an issue with 90% of special zombies being absurdly weak, and then both of them have like half the plants being ridiculously above or below average
The 50 sun meta is there for a reason. If the game was as fast paced as it is currently with a 25 sun meta the game would be even harder than pvz3 rn
@@manachromeYT Accidentally wrote a massive wall of text but TL:DR: 50 sun meta kinda messes everything up in both difficulty and plant balance.
I don't think that's right. The game is fast paced exactly BECAUSE the 50 sun meta forced the level design to spam strong zombies as fast as possible to compete with the sheer amount of sun you make and even then the spam isn't enough because Instas exist. 50 sun meta though can definitely be fun completely messes up the difficulty and the balance of the game.
Like for a level in 50 sun meta to be actually difficult it needs to either:
A) spam constantly the absolute strongest zombies possible (and even then I doubt the level would be that difficult because Instas)
B) assault you and rush you down as soon as the level starts with so many zombies so early that it feels impossible to properly defend (and even then there's ways to counter this and it will most likely leave the second half of the level feeling piss easy by comparison)
Or C) adding some harsh instant loss condition like the "don't lose more than X plants" or "don't spend more than X amount of sun" or some other thing like the blueprints in Steam Ages from Reflourished, but even then this could be really annoying, potentially repetitive, and you need to bunch it up with one of the previous 2 points to make it truly hard
And that's just the effect it has on difficulty, it also completely fucks plant balance in multiple ways:
1) Because of the zombie spam, every plant that doesn't have splash damage becomes way worse than it would be otherwise.
2) Every single plant that is extremely powerful but expensive almost doesn't have a downside anymore and they basically trivialize the mid-late game of each stage (they're a bit akward to use in levels that try to rush you down early but still there's ways around it), and because of that mods with 50 sun meta are forced to nerf them and increase their cooldown so you can't just spam them which is sorta akward and makes them a bit less fun imo.
3) Every single plant that is meant to be cheap but have relatively low value for its cost basically becomes useless because its upside barely matters.
4) Because of the higher sun generation and the tightly packed zombie spam all the heavy duty Instas become way stronger, SPECIALLY cherry bomb. Their downside of a higher cost compared to cheaper instas doesn't matter outside of the very early game, and the zombie spam makes them feel borderline necessary sometimes.
5) Because you make so much sun anyways using secondary sun producers doesn't ever feel necessary to use the more expensive plants, but if you DO use secondary sun producers you practically make infinite money
This also generates a way bigger skill gap between the best and worse players, which while that's maybe what you want I'm not sure it's quite it for a casual game like this. Good players that know how to properly farm sun will demolish almost all stages with practically no issue by spamming the strongest expensive while while people that do not know proper sun production strats will get run over and resort to much weaker cost effective plants like Lighting Reed that are simply not enough against a large chunk of the actually hard stages.
Tl;dr: 50 sun meta is wigigity wiggity wack yo that shit's ßuzzin fr
@@InsertFunnyThingHere I still prefer it as well it just feels nicer for thr difficulty. Personally cherry bomb should only be able to deal 900 damage in my mind and many instas should be clean up not a free get out of jail. Which is why in a game Im going to develop currently in a coding class for csharp. Aka the same language that terraria uses. Although the meta is still a faster version of a 25 sun meta mostly without sun drops as scraps don't come from the sky.
@@manachromeYT I think Cherry bomb would need a nerf even in a 25 sun meta context (as long as the game is actually somewhat hard and not the extended tutorial that was pvz1) as it outclasses pretty much all of the other heavy duty Instas (not counting the ones that are literally just cherry bomb but better and the modern pvz2 seediums because those are so blatantly overpowered in every possible angle and approach that it's hard to take them seriously in a balancing discussion) but I'm not sure if reducing it's damage too much is quite the solution.
I would advocate for making Cherry bomb equally as strong but with a much larger cooldown and cost, so it's more of a press in case of emergency button that you can basically only use once or twice in the entire level but at a big cost, but idk I'm not really a game designer I just notice when a game is almost forcing me to use one set of plants over another
@@InsertFunnyThingHere Very good breakdown of the 50 sun meta, the key point to take here is that faster sun production = more zombie spam to keep up difficulty = instas become OP and single target becomes trash. Reflourished is still fun as vanilla spammy game, and AltVerz is also good 25 meta. Personally, I think PVZ2 is thought of as faster pace because it literally has a fast forward button.
I think the issue is less about how balanced each plant is and moreso how intricate the gameplay is. With PVZ1, many of the stronger plants either require more strategy/effort than usual (Starfruit, Garlic, etc.) or more time to set up (most of the "Upgrade" Plants) compared to the weaker, more straightforward plants. Alot of the plants (even the weaker ones) provide unique gameplay strategies, and the game overall gives the player way more time to breathe & set up their defense the way they like it. It's very user-friendly, and makes for a game you can enjoy regardless of what strategies you'd like to use.
With PVZ2, many of the stronger plants require little effort to set up & perform ridiculously well regardless of what strategy you use (its especially broken regarding the Primal plants), and the zombie spam makes the meta so limited that you're forced to ignore alot of the weaker plants with unique gameplay strategies (Pea Pod, Citron, Spore-Shroom) and instead just use the same plants over and over bc they can actually get you through the level (Snapdragon, Winter Melon, Cherry Bomb). Due to both the levels' lightning-fast pace & massive level count (~300 levels in Adventure Mode alone is pretty insane with how little gameplay variety there is), you're more focused on just rushing through the level than building a creative/satisfying defense, which I feel makes for a game that's still pretty decent, but harder to enjoy compared to the first.
And the grass is green, Sylvia
idk man the grass near my house looks more like wooden planks
@@jeremypanjaitan4039 well summer is over
@@therealno_onesummer will never end
I personally think that PVZ 2 doesn't need to be balanced. Arena and Penny's pursuit require those op plants. Often times, they're not even nearly enough. The same can be said about levelling system.
Honestly it probably doesn’t need the balancing, but what ends up being an issue is just how necessary some Plants are for the said Arena and Penny’s Pursuit modes. If you don’t use what’s good in those gamemodes, you’re probably gonna suffer heavily 😭
WARNING:I HAVEN'T PLAYED PVZ2 FOR A LONG TIME SO I MIGHT FORGET THE PLANT NAMES
Surprisingly, dusk lobber is one of the op plants for no reason(only arena and with moonflower).
@@oshirothebubble It IS really good. Tile turnip, primal potato mine and dusk lobber (and the sun producers ofc) are some of the adventure mode plants that are also frequently used in arena.
@@SylviaYSI It's a little sad that this is what this game has come to.
@@SylviaYSIHonestly, from my experience, arena is perfectly fine even if you don't have the best plants, and for Penny's Pursuit, literally all you need is Torchwood and Pea Vine. Mega Gat and Appeasemint help a lot, but Appeasemint is unnecessary, and I've actually found that Threepeater works as a decent substitute because of its plant food.
In Bfn, the snipers make it so hard to play any class that doesn't have a shield or can flank, and night cap/brainium basher don't even work against them, so you have to play citron/all star, or chomper.
I never really thought about how strong the snipers are in BFN but kinda true honestly. Heavily depends on the map though, in some of them it's pretty easy to flank them with basically any character and take them down, while in others the entire map is a glorified sightline and the second a competent sniper hits the field the entire match goes down the drain
And with how overtuned the tanks and Chomper are… yeah it’s a never-ending loop of playing meta against meta, which ends up being frustrating after a while
ngl i hate snipers so this is a plus for me
I feel like with how long PvZ2 has been going on, it cause things to get heavily unbalanced. And I’m afraid what PvZ3 has in store for
PVZ3 will start out fine, at least if we’re considering what plants will be added. Though I’m sure in the future (should it receive one) things’ll get a bit worse 😭
yeah but it legit took a couple years of updates for the meta to get stupid and with powerful instas being locked to power ups and the 1 sun (aka 25 sun meta) will allow things like winter melon to be fair again
What PvZ3 has in store is PvZ4, because I genuinely don't think 3 has a future.
Personally the balancing for me wasn't exactly the appeal of pvz, it was everything else surrounding it, I just enjoy the games as they are, though modern Pvz2 definitely contains balancing that makes the game worse.
0:00 why does no one ever talk about *that* intro sound, like wtf even is it
Real
It's the scientist's teleport sound from pvz garden warfare whenever he uses it
@@walkingidiot2533 context appreciated
So, the intro sound is a Scientist teleporting SFX, followed up by a pitfall and a critical vanquish sound from BFN. I figured it’d match what I wanted to show in my intro
Yeah, I see the critique a lot on PvZ 2 being unbalanced and don’t get me wrong it definitely gets way worse after Modern Day, but even in the Og, PvZ ain’t a balanced game given Doom Shroom and Puffshroom exists.
8:45 DONT forget that some plants feel better then others,depute their rarity.Say for instance,berry blast,A COMMON CARD,is stronger then Starch Lord,a rare card
Rarity shouldn't determine how good a card is though, it only determines how unique a card is at most
And at the same time Cob Cannon is one of the strongest control cards and Trickster is the best finisher.
I think people overrate the desire for balancing, I'd take a fun unbalanced game over a boring balanced one.
Also, Platern > Blover any day.
plantern works in shorter levels and in the early game. otherwise, blover is better because he doesn't take up real estate and doesn't need to be protected
@@alejanproh2961 eh I'm not sure I agree, protecting plantern isn't really that hard and the space wasted isn't really a big deal most of the time, but yeah Blover is perfectly fine as a defogger and is good role compression when Balloon zombie is involved, and really it's just a personal preference thing imo.
You can also just like not have a defogger at all because the fog doesn't change that much, but you have so many plant slots in pvz1 that there's not really a reason not to bring one
@InsertFunnyThingHere it gets progressively harder to defend the longer the level goes on. and plantern needs to be placed near the front, which makes it get in the way of puff, and fume setups and just your front line in general.
also, these problems become way more noticeable when playing a more difficult mod, to the point where blover would be viable even at double the cost
@@alejanproh2961Not sure about mods but yeah plantern is a bit akward to use, but it's so much more cost effective than spamming Blover (even accounting for the cost of protecting plantern)that I sorta struggle to call it straight up worse. Even in longer levels you don't always have the money to make the sun you use up on Blover just fully expendable. I still believe it's mostly a personal preference type thing, i'm not sure how it is in hard mods, but that's sorta a different thing entirely.
Honestly I agree with this, as nice as balancing would be for some of these games it’s not necessarily needed for a fun experience. Hell, I play GW1 a lot right now, and I’d argue that game is more unbalanced than anything else in this franchise besides PVZ2 😭
I personally prefer Blover, but Plantern is way better long-term so I get that there
Ok What Do You Guys Think Next Plant Will Be Something Like Aqua-nut? Huh
I am Johnny Homeowner and i approve of this message
This video was uploaded 32 mins ago how did u comment 9hrs ago?
@@kanchana6427 become a YSI Channel Member and time loses meaning.
@@kanchana6427 members get to see the video earlier
G
PVZ1 I think I can understand the power creep of, given that the level progression means you often have to (or are incensivised to) use the lesser ones before you get the fully powered one. And it's only really felt with the fog plants to me.
PvZ not being balanced to an extent is to it’s benefit, I love this franchise
pvz's flawed plants are due to its lock-and-key design, learnt it from a vid but i cant seem to find it again 😭
That sounds like something Creeps would say
i feel like each mainline pvz game is a different game with the same concept. in pvz1 you slowly build up your strategy to be able to with stand the zombies it's all about the execution of setting up your defense then the pay off of your plants all work together to create your cleverly crafted plan to stop the zombies from being able to get through and as you unlock new stuff it feels like your progressing each level and each time you get more and more plants that are change something either you get a plant that's able to be used to help you set up your plan to make it easier to do so or maybe it's a high sun cost plant that's able to make it so you get an iron clad defense down that the zombies cannot get through or it's a plant to counter the new threat. in pvz1 is a slow build up to an unstoppable step up that the zombies cannot get past and the slow build makes it satisficing to finally set it all up this is why the meta is the way it is plants like puff make it super easy to set up and make it so even at night you can place more sun producers to still set up that end game but also why plants like tallnut are so good because they are able to act as a barrier to either stall out until you get a good defense or to make sure your defense holds against anything the game throughs at you this is why gargantuar is such a impactful zombie in pvz1 it's the only zombie that's able to tank even your strongest plants and it's able to crush your defense. now for pvz2 instead of a slow set up it's all about feeling powerful pvz2 at first is a VERY hard game as you feel like your getting rushed down as the zombies keep swarming you making it frustrating but once your able to optimize sun production and realize and fully utilize the 50 sun meta the game has those ones strong threats become paper weights as your powerful plants wipe the floor with the zombies instead of slowly building up an iron wall your quickly building a nuke this is why some plants aren't' as good sense tallnut is all about making sure zombies cannot pass but that doesn't work in a game where your instead trying to make sure zombies are being quickly gunned down this is why instas are so much better in that game because it makes it so if you normally don't have the fire power you can just blow your problem right up this is also why winter melon is so good because it slows down zombies and dose heavy damage to the screen this is why gargantaurs are once again important but not for the same reason instead of being that threating brute of a zombie it's now a disguise of a threating brute but really there just there to make it feel like you can take on the strongest threats it's there to be the big scary zombie but the thing is your plants are there to look very powerful once you get good at the game they become easy to deal with as you use instas to quickly blow them up with two plants or to blow them up once and leave them weakened and alone making your plants quickly able to kill them this is also why objectives are important to the game it makes the game fresh and difficult again so you have to use that power you have to adjust to new things. now those two pvz games had one thing is common it made you feel powerful but in different ways pvz1 makes it so you slowly build up a huge defense while pvz2 starts really hard but once you know how to play it becomes an easy game but you feel so powerful because those once huge threats are now being mowed down. pvz was never about the balance it was about the feeling of POWER and feeling powerful is fun. the people who gave up on pvz2 never got to feel the feeling of it sense they gave up so quickly but the fans of it endured and then liked the game because they over came the learning curve. this is why EVERYONE hates pvz3 you never once feel powerful there's no heavy attackers and they just spam a bunch of weak zombies most of the time and the only time you WOULD feel powerful is ruined because you feel the guilt of using a powerup aka the only source of a lot of power it doesn't feel earned this is why lighting reed is the best plant because of the way the game is designed it HAS to be good do the game constantly throwing out what lighting reed counters weak zombie spam. and there's my yap session about a game where plants are able to kill robots the size of houses.
0:30 should be illegal
I think what makes PvZ2's balancing issues more notorious is:
1.- BattleZ becoming unfair to play against children who use their mom's credit card to buy Pokra and level it to Mastery 200
2.- The lack of care for balance making some plants so ridiculously broken playing Adventure (or hell, even Pursuit) with them becomes a joke, and others so horribly bad it's not even fun to use them to challenge oneself
3.- And of course, the HUGE diffence in power or utility between Adventure/Gemium and Premium/Seedium plants. Just compare Bonk Choy to Pokra, or Pea Pod to Mega Gattling, or Chomper AND Tall-nut to Guard-Shroom, and let's not even get into the mints...
At least in PvZ1 there wasn't a true win button: Winter Melon is hard to set up at night, while Puff-shroom is mostly relegated to early game stalling at day levels
PVZ 1 was fairly balanced, it's just that the game isn't particularly hard.
The issues were existant, but they weren't as bad as PVZ 2 or any other game if being honest...
If the game is too easy - it'sa badly balanced game.
@@protoney8122 no it just means it's an easy game
Yeah, with PVZ1 being the earliest entry it doesn’t have too many issues with the balancing
@@protoney8122its meant To be eesy so everyone could play it thats why it became so popular
As someone who plays Heroes, Puff Shroom costing more than 0 makes them kind of bad, but Puff Shroom costing less than 1 makes them really strong for a number of reasons. This also goes for Lil’ Buddy, another currently 0-cost plant.
If they wanted to balance them better, they’d have to make much more nuanced changes, but the leaked patch notes only contain cost and stat changes so, RIP.
while PVZ 1 doesnt have a best balancing issues
it doesnt really matter to me
it all matters is that its a really fun game for players of all skill levels
since this game supposedly one of the most beginner friendly strategy games especially for people does not know which strategy game should they start with and are afraid to think most of the other strategy games might be too complicated for them
so yeah I think PVZ might be the least complicated of all strategy games
especially for the first game it was dead easy
Aqua Vine
Bqua Vine
Cqua Vine
They managed to power creep Lily pad for some strange reason. Next plant they need to add is just a wall that poisons zombies so they can power creep endurain
Dqua Vine
@@manachromeYTAnd after that, introduce a new plant that power creeps Power Lily and Tile Turnip 🙏
Look, pvz always had questionable balancing, but pvz2 (including the chinese version) is the most unbalanced game I have EVER seen
It’s honestly so scuffed 😭
1:37 that's a crime setup right there
You can't talk about Bfn without noticing the HORROR of sunflowers healing. If any plant with more than 75 health is being healed by a sunflower than plant becomes practically invincible, and the sunflower becomes TOP priority. And pray to the lord if you meet two sunflowers connected to each other. (Wrote this after dealing with a match of around 6 sunflowers).
Overhealth (and honestly, the healers in general) is genuinely a major problem of BFN. Pockets can be easily dealt with on their own, but when they have the right upgrades on they’re pretty damn frustrating to fight. Even so, I don’t overall find them that bad, when people very rarely play the most annoying way you can with them
@@SylviaYSI I would say scientists aren't that infuriating as they can't heal mid-fight, I really do think the sunflowers healbeam disconnects when the sunflower gets hit.
LETS GO PVZ HEROES NOTICED EVEN MORE UNBALANCED THAN 3 HE EVEN LOOKED ATW THE BALANCE CHANGE POPCAP PLS
ong finally someone that realizes ice shroom is just better pokra in pvz2 (*at least past level 2 so its range is 2 tiles)
I don't level so it's actually worse for me
PvZ has never been balanced, but that’s a good portion of the charm!
-What do you mean I’m a hypocrite for saying this?-
I actually like that PVZ 1 and 2 are unbalanced. Makes the games a lot more fun imo.
I think having broken plants is fun and mostly fine in a casual single player game like this, but it's a bit of a shame how many plants are straight up terrible and unusable despite their cool concepts and/or designs.
It's specially an issue in PVZ2 and some PVZ2 mods because at some point the levels are designed around the broken plants and they feel almost mandatory.
@@InsertFunnyThingHere Yeah, powercreep turns into power inflation when it comes to how PopCap expects us to tackle some of their newer levels.
@@TwilightChomperEnthusiastnot even like modern pvz2, I feel like you can see this even in a lot of the harder wolds in the vanilla story mode
Over time, I’ve kinda grown to love the jank of it all. Yes, these games can be frustrating sometimes, but it’s also the same franchise that allows you to pull off some of the funniest things ever (lawn full of tiny shrooms shredding hordes of zombies, as an example)
I feel that PvZ's balancing led to its success, its so beautifully casual.
PVZ's balance is like a blind man in a wheelchair holding an elephant, on a tight rope
for pvz2, that's not to mention plant leveling, which pretty much destroys any semblance of game balance in the adventure mode
What's that? YSI changed the outro music sample up? Gotta love it when you hear the rest of a known tune.
9:03 Yes, Bonk is still OP, but lightning was nerfed in the cys update.. he’s kinda mid now, sunflower was buffed a bit too, sun shroom is just not usable outside of Nightime.
THE MOST IMPORTANT thing to note is that in montly article they said they would rebalance plants, let’s see how that turns out! They also said togganle grapes of wrath and more plants, but this is for balancing
I feel like a main difference between PVZ and all these other games in the series (aside from adventure I think) that make up for this is the fact that it wasn’t really competitive in comparison to every other game, and enjoyment ofc.
Pvz2 has arena, BFN, GW, GW2, and Heroes’s main attractions are mostly fighting other people online, and if I remember correctly as of typing this, they have a little competitive scene with PVZ3 when it comes to beaten levels in certain time.
PVZ1 slides off this Scott free for said reason, and it does make sense. (Not counting the Vs mode on the consoles btw.)
I feel like nowadays, you have people debating on whether or not blover is actually worth using in pvz 1 compared to cactus and especially plantern
Honestly you mentioned that people only use the strongest character or a meta are people who who are tryhards.
I don't think Popcap & EA think about balancing.
They just focus on making the game so they can make some money.
:D
Well Sometimes unbalancing can be good, legendary characters in plants vs zombies garden warfare 2 is a good example because it makes the game more exciting when you unlock one
3:40 song sugar cube hailstorm
I personally preffer the "heal only up to half hp" system more than the rest
It's funny how you know nothing about PvZH and still get things relatively correct about it
I think the plants are way funnier to play than the zombies.
The balancing is just one of the reasons i liked bfn. As much as we love Gw2, we need to agree that it is junky. It kinda feels unfinished. Bfn looked like a step up from it, even when it excluded the variants.
The only complaint I have is pepper pult
Plant balancing in PVZ2 have always seemed like a strange case to me
tf2 weapon reskins have seemed like a strange case to me
YO SYLVIA PLEASE JOIN THE PVZ GW2 FIESTA AND YOU, YES YOU THE GUY THAT IS READING THIS; THE DATE OF THE FIESTA IS 14 SEP, THE RULES IS JUST OPEN THE GAME AND TRY PLAYING AS MUCH AS YOU CANN AND TELL ALL OF YOUR FRIENDS ABOUT THIS
i think this guy mains garden warfare and never played heroes...
The only thing I find stupidly unbalanced to the point it removes some of the fun in bfn is the brainium basher.
pvz 1 is goated for what it is especially because of these op plants etc it would not have that type of charm its also a singleplayer game
Gregnant
Daddy Gonzalez
Yeah its impossible to balance a tower defense
2:19 pokera is still better than ice shroom at level 1
What mod is this footage from 3:04 ?
The point of pvz is to feel overpowered its literally the point of tower defence
Heros is balanced enough to be fun 😂😂😂
Though PVZ heroes has the WORST balancing of all PVZ games 😭
Why do sound so like uhyeah?
I honestly enjoy PVZ2 because the balancing is terrible.
peak
Hi
bfn was pretty bad overall though
Ah yes,yet another person who thinks puff shroom is op when it managed to beat night levels only because the game is to easy
It kinda is. Pvz 1 desperately needed something like jester
Pvz2 is a game that is much harder, has zombies that puff shroom cannot take down at all and many of them, gives you much more sun so a free attacker has less value, and heavily nerfed Puff Shroom in basically every angle while giving it not a whole lot in return, and Puff Shroom is still a perfectly good plant and arguably above average.
I don't think the lack of difficulty in PVZ1 is why puff shroom is considered overpowered
Also for the record even outside of night levels puff shroom is still a good plant just for being a free meatshield, specially when combined with any slowing effect
@@manachromeYT ah heck nah bruh theres only a couple of plants that would even be able to DEAL with jester. fume shroom and spikeweed in the main mode and instants and your in NIGHT levels where sun is hard to get the issue with pvz 1 is that it's specials are HARD countered by some plants
@@dakotacornish6616 fume shroom would hard counter it tho
Puff-Shroom is genuinely busted. Bear in mind that the Plant itself costs 0 sun, can be placed in daytime levels and act as a free stall even when it’s sleeping, and it has one of the lowest cooldowns for PVZ1. If that doesn’t sound like a really strong Plant to you, then I’m not sure what does