In the Gathas, Heaven and Hell as two states of mind are discerned by conscience. It is interesting that after death, soul is guided by conscience, the soul of the righteous shall pass the sorting bridge, but the soul of wrongful are upbraided by conscience, shall not pass and return. The line of separation, poetically is called the sorting bridge. But he Gathas stop here and does not tell us as what happens to the soul passing or those returning. In other words, Gathas does not engage in the dreams of eschatology.
Heaven and Hell in the Gathas are the two states of mind that are discerned by the conscience. Heaven is the state of spiritual relief and hell is indeed inner torment. There is no physical depiction of the two. In Persian mysticism being cooked in oven and going through the fire are allegories for becoming purified from vices and attaining the virtues as molten metal. Molavi Roomi states: I was raw, I was cooked, I was consumed. That points to the state of purification and receiving experience. In the contemporary Persian language, when one says: he is cooked (Pokhteh), it immediately understood that it means, he is experienced.
I take your comment on keeping aside my thoughts on the speaker and/or the advisors at bay and i shall accept that. I am fully aware of the fact that some parts of the translation of the Gathas have different meanings - I have translated them myself after intense research - my main sources have been literatures by Er. Kanga and the other by Eruch Taraporewala, both respected scholars in Avesta. Besides you may or may not know that Zarathushtis also happen to refer to parts of an ancient document called Jamasp-nameh. All my concerted efforts in completing my work on the translation of the Gathas from all of these sources have clearly indicated the meaning of the Fiery Test as articulated earlier in my previous comment. The bottom line from my complete research is that the souls of each and every departed ones would go through the Fiery Test - the state of the soul in this worldly life would dictate the extent of pain - in other words a very sinful soul would suffer intense pain from this test, while a person with greater amount of good deeds would feel otherwise. The goal of the Fiery Test is to completely purify all the souls before Ahura Mazda (after destructing Angra Mainyu) starts this world with complete purity and bliss all over again. Now others have all the right to dispute all what I've mentioned and I can hardly do anything about it.
I appreciate your constructive spirit to focus on the philosophy and I appreciate hearing your perspective. I do think there is a respectful disagreement on the translation of "Fiery Test" for Y32.7 and would share a few other translations to compare: Insler: "...for which one has (already) been tried by molten iron, and of which Thou, Wise Lord," DJ Irani: "...None of them know of the destruction of evil with the flood of glowing metal." Jafarey: "...a life, said to be achieved by the force of clamoring metal." Taraporewala: "...in eagerness to attain the blessing that shall be proclaimed, we know, through the glowing metal" I see some consensus for the use of molten metal or other related words used by many translators. Thus I would highly encourage a read of Dina McIntyre's outstanding breakdown of this allegory: gathasofzarathushtra.com/2-11-molten-glowing-metal/2-11-molten-glowing-metal-2/ I do think "molten metal" is an allegory for the soul's refining process which is not incredibly far from the gist of what I read your perspective is --> to enable a soul to be fully aligned with Asha and Ahura Mazda. I just respectfully disagree that this is inflicted upon as some retributory purification process - it might be a nuanced distinction but an important one IMHO as it breaks the paradigm of fear - freeing us from this fear enables our true spiritual growth and is so core to Mazdayasna. Thanks again for your perspective, ushtā te 🔥
I do not mean to go back and forth, but it's interesting that you are giving specific quotes by people that I assume you respect and admire, and they all seem to touch upon what I am saying. I scanned through McIntyre's blog, and I can't help but say that being a traditional Zarathushti myself born in India to a lineage that comes way back from Mobed Nairyosang Dhaval, I would not give the slightest of credence to an article written by a lady who concedes having problems at a young age by struggling with the religious rituals that are mandatory as per the Vendidad. As mentioned earlier, scholastic background alone doesn't make up for the true knowledge on our ancient religion, simply based on one's interpretations of certain articles and/or substantiated by their own experience and feelings. True knowledge on one's own religion is usually a result of information gained through established literature, and equally important, are the lessons learned through our own spiritual forefathers. Regretfully, I must say that our conversation leads me to believe that we may not be even talking of the same religion - the one that was propagated over 3500 years ago, or the one that reformists today all over the world are attempting to metamorphosize to suit their own convenience. Zoroastrianism, as I put it, is Mazdayasni Zarathushti. While Zarathushtra was the one who reshaped the very ancient Mazdayasni belief system and we are blessed with the fact that we now own the words of Asho Zarathushtra Himself through His Gathas, we must not shun other writings, such as the Yasna and the Vendidad. Make no mistake, while the latter was not undertaken by Zarathushtra, they were put in place by His blessed disciples a short period of time after His passing. Ask one reformist or for that matter, an Iranian who claims to be a Zoroastrian and is a descendant of the those who had resided for 1000+ years amidst the pressures of the Islamic faith, as to their understanding and acceptance of Yasna and/or Vendidad. And I submit to you that rarely will you find someone who may regard these precious religious texts as an integral part of Zoroastrianism. In other words, religious rituals as articulated in the Vendidad must bear high importance in the life of a true Zarathushti. In today’s organizational terms, the Gathas would represent a strategic plan, and the Yasna/Vendidad represent a tactical plan, which directs the followers to specific actions. Sorry for the long-winded comment.
@15:15 "...we must consult the most current understanding of our age" But wouldn't it be likely that the most current understanding of our age contains tainted and corrupted ideas which have drifted from the original perfect state? Shouldn't Truth be characterized and evaluated in absolute terms, not Truth relative to this or that age?
Hi David, thanks so much for the thought provoking question - this is the very purpose of these talks so I really appreciate your question and comment! Asha is the Ultimate Truth in both the existences of mind and matter. In matter, this includes the truth about how our physical existence is ordered - and for us, human beings, this is a constant expansive journey as we search for Truth. We must consult the most current/latest understanding of our age referred to our understanding of Asha, not the ideal itself. Certainly, our understanding of how physical existence is ordered (physics, biology, etc...) has been expanding over time. This also extends to the mental/spiritual aspect of our existence where we learn from our choices both individually and collectively in society. The Gathas are quite consistent that the Search for Truth is 1) the primary path to realize the Divine 2) enables our spiritual growth 3) ultimately the result of fully realizing the Divine as well. So to summarize - this point in the talk was about us leveraging our best ability at any given moment to continue the Search for Truth and understand Asha in its pure, ideal terms. I think you make a great point that I agree with: Asha is not relative itself to any age. It is the ideal that we should ever strive to realize! Thanks again for sharing your thoughts, wishing you radiant happiness 🔥
Thank you for your reply. I am new to the precepts of Zoroastrianism. I believe there is a subset of society who by discernment, inspiration, experience, or a combination, lead their lives according to Zoroastrianism but have never heard of Zoroastrianism - exercising personal freewill; recognizing good and evil in the world; and choosing to pursue good thoughts, good words, and good deeds. In the broader landscape of religion, I appreciate its simplicity and direct applicability to everyday life.
@@davidmartin123 I totally agree with you! I also think this is a worldview that is highly compatible with modern life for many people! As Morgan Freeman said after his Story of God series- this is a philosophy I think a lot of people would get behind but may not know about it at all. I'm glad you've connected with it and would love to hear your thoughts as you learn more! Wishing you radiant happiness 🔥
Navid seems like a nice guy but he needs to clearly understand the scope and meaning of the Gathas. As a full Zarathushti priest for the past 60+ years , I submit to you that while the concept of choices are correct and that the consequences of choices provides an opportunity for one to lead him/herself on a righteous path; but to take it for granted that no matter what the deeds are, we just go around happily in this world with no concern of the fact that we would be disappointing Zarathushtra/Ahura Mazda - this in itself is a sin. With one having a full understanding of the Gathas, one would be aware of the fact that Zarathushtra has clearly articulated that souls of the sinners will eventually go through a flow of molten lava. Refer to Yasna Ha 32-7 which translates thus: "Of all these sinners, none of them understand what true and lasting progress might imply. This can be learnt from life on Earth alone, if not, then through the Fiery Test, as proclaimed by You. O Ahura Mazda, the final end of sinners is best judged by You alone." Here, the 'Fiery Test' is meant here to be a punishment in the Spiritual World, by pouring molten metal on the souls of the sinners to remove their wickedness (source: Gatha-ba -Maani by Er. Kanga). Gathas have clearly proclaimed for all of us to be aware of the "Masters of Untruth' and hence my wordy comment to the viewers. As for Navid's acknowledgement for Ali Jafarey, I would reserve my comment - being born in Kerman and having excellent academic qualifications doesn't make one a true Zarathushti - it's only for a true Zarathushti to impart the true knowledge on Zarathushtra's religion and His Gathas - of course, there are just a few exceptions to this rule.
These talks are meant to be thought catalysts so I appreciate the opportunity to have constructive discourse on different philosophical interpretations. I would hope that we keep the conversation on the philosophical ideas and not about individuals (Mr. Mansourian, Dr. Jafarey, yourself or otherwise) - IMHO focusing on what growth and learning towards Asha, what is right and good in all existence. Any references to being a priest or a "true" Zarathushti only derails from us sharing ideas and learning from each other. The only thing I will say on this subject is that the Gathas are abundantly clear that Mazdayasni philosophy is presented as thought provokers for all of humankind. A "true" Zarathushti is not a term that is ever used but anyone who strives to align oneself with Asha is on the journey to being an Ashavan. WRT to the mentions of "fiery test" as a punishment, this is an interesting perspective to take and I appreciate discussing it with you. As I'm sure you're familiar with, many Gathas translations differ on certain words and Y32.7 is no exception - fiery test is not the most literal translation nor does it fit the context of how those words are used in the Gathas IMHO. This is why I love Dina McIntyre's evidence based approach where she takes the words and applies them in context throughout the Gathas. The Gathas do refer to molten metal as a metaphor/allegory for the soul's refining process which is exactly the focus of this talk. One does not simply "just go around happily in this world" but we are to reflect and do the incredibly hard work to adjust and improve ourselves and ALL of existence. We learn through the consequences of our choices - both those constructive choices aligned with Asha and those destructive ones that move away. The Gathas commonly use allegory and molten metal is one of those. There is no evidence that this is a destination where one goes to be "punished" after death in the Gathas. I certainly have not seen such a connection made between the molten metal allegory and the idea of punishment either - it is about informing our choices and enabling our growth. Molten metal is a powerful metaphor as it emphasize, however painful, even something as tough as metal can change. I'd highly recommend reading Dina McIntyre's evidence based breakdown on this subject at gathasofzarathushtra.com/2-11-molten-glowing-metal/2-11-molten-glowing-metal-2/. Wishing you radiant happiness (ushtā) and thanks again for engaging in a constructive discourse.
Heaven and Hell in the Gathas are the two states of mind that are discerned by the conscience. Heaven is the state of spiritual relief and hell is indeed inner torment. There is no physical depiction of the two. In Persian mysticism being cooked in oven and going through the fire are allegories for becoming purified from vices and attaining the virtues as molten metal. Molavi Roomi states: I was raw, I was cooked, I was consumed. That points to the state of purification and receiving experience. In the contemporary Persian language, when one says: he is cooked ( Pokhteh) it immediately understood that it means, he is experienced.
Zurvanism, Mazdakianism, and Manichaeism just derived the language to its extremes and ignored details that made the Spirit of Evil like The Holy Mentality both creations. In all levels of existence with choice makes punishment and reward literal and figurative, but it isn't like the evil gods verses angels and Godhead idea of Christianity incompatible. The Dinkard, Visperad, and other Nasks do enumerate grades of the hereafter, but that just enforces a care for individual thought, word, deed, and religion.
![Lord of Spirits - The Ascension of Isaiah and the Assumption of Moses [Ep. 93]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ntXJ1LCnHQE/mqdefault.jpg)
Dorood
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Thank you for these videos!🙏
Thank you and very glad you enjoy them!
The introduction mentioned some links that were going to be posted. Thank you for sharing this video!
In the Gathas, Heaven and Hell as two states of mind are discerned by conscience. It is interesting that after death, soul is guided by conscience, the soul of the righteous shall pass the sorting bridge, but the soul of wrongful are upbraided by conscience, shall not pass and return. The line of separation, poetically is called the sorting bridge. But he Gathas stop here and does not tell us as what happens to the soul passing or those returning. In other words, Gathas does not engage in the dreams of eschatology.
Heaven and Hell in the Gathas are the two states of mind that are discerned by the conscience. Heaven is the state of spiritual relief and hell is indeed inner torment. There is no physical depiction of the two. In Persian mysticism being cooked in oven and going through the fire are allegories for becoming purified from vices and attaining the virtues as molten metal. Molavi Roomi states: I was raw, I was cooked, I was consumed. That points to the state of purification and receiving experience. In the contemporary Persian language, when one says: he is cooked (Pokhteh), it immediately understood that it means, he is experienced.
I take your comment on keeping aside my thoughts on the speaker and/or the advisors at bay and i shall accept that. I am fully aware of the fact that some parts of the translation of the Gathas have different meanings - I have translated them myself after intense research - my main sources have been literatures by Er. Kanga and the other by Eruch Taraporewala, both respected scholars in Avesta. Besides you may or may not know that Zarathushtis also happen to refer to parts of an ancient document called Jamasp-nameh. All my concerted efforts in completing my work on the translation of the Gathas from all of these sources have clearly indicated the meaning of the Fiery Test as articulated earlier in my previous comment. The bottom line from my complete research is that the souls of each and every departed ones would go through the Fiery Test - the state of the soul in this worldly life would dictate the extent of pain - in other words a very sinful soul would suffer intense pain from this test, while a person with greater amount of good deeds would feel otherwise. The goal of the Fiery Test is to completely purify all the souls before Ahura Mazda (after destructing Angra Mainyu) starts this world with complete purity and bliss all over again. Now others have all the right to dispute all what I've mentioned and I can hardly do anything about it.
I appreciate your constructive spirit to focus on the philosophy and I appreciate hearing your perspective. I do think there is a respectful disagreement on the translation of "Fiery Test" for Y32.7 and would share a few other translations to compare:
Insler: "...for which one has (already) been tried by molten iron, and of which Thou, Wise Lord,"
DJ Irani: "...None of them know of the destruction of evil with the flood of glowing metal."
Jafarey: "...a life, said to be achieved by the force of clamoring metal."
Taraporewala: "...in eagerness to attain the blessing that shall be proclaimed, we know, through the glowing metal"
I see some consensus for the use of molten metal or other related words used by many translators. Thus I would highly encourage a read of Dina McIntyre's outstanding breakdown of this allegory: gathasofzarathushtra.com/2-11-molten-glowing-metal/2-11-molten-glowing-metal-2/
I do think "molten metal" is an allegory for the soul's refining process which is not incredibly far from the gist of what I read your perspective is --> to enable a soul to be fully aligned with Asha and Ahura Mazda. I just respectfully disagree that this is inflicted upon as some retributory purification process - it might be a nuanced distinction but an important one IMHO as it breaks the paradigm of fear - freeing us from this fear enables our true spiritual growth and is so core to Mazdayasna.
Thanks again for your perspective, ushtā te 🔥
I do not mean to go back and forth, but it's interesting that you are giving specific quotes by people that I assume you respect and admire, and they all seem to touch upon what I am saying. I scanned through McIntyre's blog, and I can't help but say that being a traditional Zarathushti myself born in India to a lineage that comes way back from Mobed Nairyosang Dhaval, I would not give the slightest of credence to an article written by a lady who concedes having problems at a young age by struggling with the religious rituals that are mandatory as per the Vendidad.
As mentioned earlier, scholastic background alone doesn't make up for the true knowledge on our ancient religion, simply based on one's interpretations of certain articles and/or substantiated by their own experience and feelings. True knowledge on one's own religion is usually a result of information gained through established literature, and equally important, are the lessons learned through our own spiritual forefathers. Regretfully, I must say that our conversation leads me to believe that we may not be even talking of the same religion - the one that was propagated over 3500 years ago, or the one that reformists today all over the world are attempting to metamorphosize to suit their own convenience.
Zoroastrianism, as I put it, is Mazdayasni Zarathushti. While Zarathushtra was the one who reshaped the very ancient Mazdayasni belief system and we are blessed with the fact that we now own the words of Asho Zarathushtra Himself through His Gathas, we must not shun other writings, such as the Yasna and the Vendidad. Make no mistake, while the latter was not undertaken by Zarathushtra, they were put in place by His blessed disciples a short period of time after His passing. Ask one reformist or for that matter, an Iranian who claims to be a Zoroastrian and is a descendant of the those who had resided for 1000+ years amidst the pressures of the Islamic faith, as to their understanding and acceptance of Yasna and/or Vendidad. And I submit to you that rarely will you find someone who may regard these precious religious texts as an integral part of Zoroastrianism. In other words, religious rituals as articulated in the Vendidad must bear high importance in the life of a true Zarathushti. In today’s organizational terms, the Gathas would represent a strategic plan, and the Yasna/Vendidad represent a tactical plan, which directs the followers to specific actions. Sorry for the long-winded comment.
@15:15 "...we must consult the most current understanding of our age"
But wouldn't it be likely that the most current understanding of our age contains tainted and corrupted ideas which have drifted from the original perfect state? Shouldn't Truth be characterized and evaluated in absolute terms, not Truth relative to this or that age?
Hi David, thanks so much for the thought provoking question - this is the very purpose of these talks so I really appreciate your question and comment! Asha is the Ultimate Truth in both the existences of mind and matter. In matter, this includes the truth about how our physical existence is ordered - and for us, human beings, this is a constant expansive journey as we search for Truth.
We must consult the most current/latest understanding of our age referred to our understanding of Asha, not the ideal itself. Certainly, our understanding of how physical existence is ordered (physics, biology, etc...) has been expanding over time. This also extends to the mental/spiritual aspect of our existence where we learn from our choices both individually and collectively in society.
The Gathas are quite consistent that the Search for Truth is 1) the primary path to realize the Divine 2) enables our spiritual growth 3) ultimately the result of fully realizing the Divine as well.
So to summarize - this point in the talk was about us leveraging our best ability at any given moment to continue the Search for Truth and understand Asha in its pure, ideal terms. I think you make a great point that I agree with: Asha is not relative itself to any age. It is the ideal that we should ever strive to realize! Thanks again for sharing your thoughts, wishing you radiant happiness 🔥
Thank you for your reply. I am new to the precepts of Zoroastrianism. I believe there is a subset of society who by discernment, inspiration, experience, or a combination, lead their lives according to Zoroastrianism but have never heard of Zoroastrianism - exercising personal freewill; recognizing good and evil in the world; and choosing to pursue good thoughts, good words, and good deeds. In the broader landscape of religion, I appreciate its simplicity and direct applicability to everyday life.
@@davidmartin123 I totally agree with you! I also think this is a worldview that is highly compatible with modern life for many people! As Morgan Freeman said after his Story of God series- this is a philosophy I think a lot of people would get behind but may not know about it at all. I'm glad you've connected with it and would love to hear your thoughts as you learn more! Wishing you radiant happiness 🔥
Zarathushrta prophesied there would be renovation after him; which would restore the religion he and the actual prophets before him were on.
Navid seems like a nice guy but he needs to clearly understand the scope and meaning of the Gathas. As a full Zarathushti priest for the past 60+ years , I submit to you that while the concept of choices are correct and that the consequences of choices provides an opportunity for one to lead him/herself on a righteous path; but to take it for granted that no matter what the deeds are, we just go around happily in this world with no concern of the fact that we would be disappointing Zarathushtra/Ahura Mazda - this in itself is a sin. With one having a full understanding of the Gathas, one would be aware of the fact that Zarathushtra has clearly articulated that souls of the sinners will eventually go through a flow of molten lava. Refer to Yasna Ha 32-7 which translates thus:
"Of all these sinners, none of them understand what true and lasting progress might imply. This can be learnt from life on Earth alone, if not, then through the Fiery Test, as proclaimed by You. O Ahura Mazda, the final end of sinners is best judged by You alone."
Here, the 'Fiery Test' is meant here to be a punishment in the Spiritual World, by pouring molten metal on the souls of the sinners to remove their wickedness (source: Gatha-ba -Maani by Er. Kanga). Gathas have clearly proclaimed for all of us to be aware of the "Masters of Untruth' and hence my wordy comment to the viewers. As for Navid's acknowledgement for Ali Jafarey, I would reserve my comment - being born in Kerman and having excellent academic qualifications doesn't make one a true Zarathushti - it's only for a true Zarathushti to impart the true knowledge on Zarathushtra's religion and His Gathas - of course, there are just a few exceptions to this rule.
These talks are meant to be thought catalysts so I appreciate the opportunity to have constructive discourse on different philosophical interpretations. I would hope that we keep the conversation on the philosophical ideas and not about individuals (Mr. Mansourian, Dr. Jafarey, yourself or otherwise) - IMHO focusing on what growth and learning towards Asha, what is right and good in all existence. Any references to being a priest or a "true" Zarathushti only derails from us sharing ideas and learning from each other. The only thing I will say on this subject is that the Gathas are abundantly clear that Mazdayasni philosophy is presented as thought provokers for all of humankind. A "true" Zarathushti is not a term that is ever used but anyone who strives to align oneself with Asha is on the journey to being an Ashavan.
WRT to the mentions of "fiery test" as a punishment, this is an interesting perspective to take and I appreciate discussing it with you. As I'm sure you're familiar with, many Gathas translations differ on certain words and Y32.7 is no exception - fiery test is not the most literal translation nor does it fit the context of how those words are used in the Gathas IMHO. This is why I love Dina McIntyre's evidence based approach where she takes the words and applies them in context throughout the Gathas.
The Gathas do refer to molten metal as a metaphor/allegory for the soul's refining process which is exactly the focus of this talk. One does not simply "just go around happily in this world" but we are to reflect and do the incredibly hard work to adjust and improve ourselves and ALL of existence. We learn through the consequences of our choices - both those constructive choices aligned with Asha and those destructive ones that move away.
The Gathas commonly use allegory and molten metal is one of those. There is no evidence that this is a destination where one goes to be "punished" after death in the Gathas. I certainly have not seen such a connection made between the molten metal allegory and the idea of punishment either - it is about informing our choices and enabling our growth. Molten metal is a powerful metaphor as it emphasize, however painful, even something as tough as metal can change. I'd highly recommend reading Dina McIntyre's evidence based breakdown on this subject at gathasofzarathushtra.com/2-11-molten-glowing-metal/2-11-molten-glowing-metal-2/.
Wishing you radiant happiness (ushtā) and thanks again for engaging in a constructive discourse.
Heaven and Hell in the Gathas are the two states of mind that are discerned by the conscience. Heaven is the state of spiritual relief and hell is indeed inner torment. There is no physical depiction of the two. In Persian mysticism being cooked in oven and going through the fire are allegories for becoming purified from vices and attaining the virtues as molten metal. Molavi Roomi states: I was raw, I was cooked, I was consumed. That points to the state of purification and receiving experience. In the contemporary Persian language, when one says: he is cooked ( Pokhteh) it immediately understood that it means, he is experienced.
Zurvanism, Mazdakianism, and Manichaeism just derived the language to its extremes and ignored details that made the Spirit of Evil like The Holy Mentality both creations.
In all levels of existence with choice makes punishment and reward literal and figurative, but it isn't like the evil gods verses angels and Godhead idea of Christianity incompatible.
The Dinkard, Visperad, and other Nasks do enumerate grades of the hereafter, but that just enforces a care for individual thought, word, deed, and religion.