Frank Herbert - Creator of Dune - on Star Wars and George Lucas
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- Опубліковано 21 сер 2024
- Frank Herbert - Creator of Dune - on Star Wars and George Lucas
Frank Herbert had some issues with George Lucas and Star Wars, at it seemed very likely that Lucas copied many elements of Dune while creating the original Star Wars trilogy. In today's episode, we look at many of the quotes Herbert said about Star Wars and Lucas, and we appreciate both franchises. Enjoy!
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Something tells me whoever told Herbert he had a sixteen point of similarities chance at a lawsuit against Lucasfilm was likely to profit from that lawsuit, no matter the outcome
nice username. I'm a Shaivist
Some lawyer wanted Frank to kick down some big fees. The case was a complete loser which is why it never happened.
There are superficial similarities but the stories are vastly different.
Frank Herbert also drew inspiration for Dune from Lawrence of Arabia.
I love Dune, Star Wars, Foundations, Star Trek, etc. and if I were ever to become an author, I would gladly buy all of them lunch.
also from The Sabres of Paradise.
They’re all peadophiles
"Frank Herbert also drew inspiration for Dune from Lawrence of Arabia." I think Lawrence would have as strong a case against Herbert for plagiarizing his memoirs as Herbert would against Lucas.
Unlike George Lucas.
All artist "borrow". It's darn near impossible to avoid it.
Yeah it is. I don’t think general audiences would have liked dune back then. Ironically dune needed Disney Star Wars to fail to get normies interested
@@tomdarragh8692 No dune needed timothy chalamet and zendaya, and now austin butler to get people interested. not to mention oscar isaac, aquaman, drax, etc
@@micejoint132 Thanos, MJ, Elvis
Hence why cavemen with the 1st Stone Art paintings and drawings were the most creative of humanity
@@HawkFest good point.
I liked the book Dune. Six years later I watched Star Wars at age 20. I saw vague similarities, but not outright copywrite infringement. I believe that this simply shows that Mr. Lucas was a thoroughly well rounded and literate producer of movies.
Thanks for watching and commenting Julie
It was basically influenced in part by Dune. But there is some Lord Of The Rings, Chronicles of Narnia, The Hidden Fortress, and other Japanese films. But all stories are a collage where they create something new.
No, there are both broad themes and specifics that Lucas plagiarized.
Desert planets is obvious.
But it gets more specific with the moisture farmers on Tatooine and the dew collectors of Arrakis.
Jedi Bendu / Prana-Bindu-it’s just entirely overt.
The Jedi order and the Bene Gesserit order.
Lucas didn’t even bother to change the term ‘order’.
And the similarities between them are too obvious to discount.
The ‘Jedi mind trick’ and the voice.
Han was a spice smuggler in the initial script.
The spice mines of Kessel.
Just stop, spice is a very particular term.
For both works to have spice as a commodity is just too on the nose.
The Hutts were, particularly Jabba who sits on a suspensor sled, is a direct copy of the God Emperor who has been described as ‘slug like’ and was the original rider of the suspensor sled.
Thematically it gets even worse.
The concept of the savior being descended from a villain with Paul and Jessica being descended from the Baron and Luke and Leia being descended from Vader.
That theme is both overt as well as specific.
Herbert wasn’t the first to have a messianic figure, but here is where Lucas’s plagiarism gets very specific.
Anakin is the original ‘chosen one’. Paul is the Kwisatz Haderach meant to bring peace and prosperity to the universe.
Anakin fails as the messiah. Just as Paul fails.
But Luke picks up the pieces and rights the wrongs of his father. Paul’s son, Leto did the same.
So it’s not just a messiah, but an initial failed messiah, and then the son that restores humanity.
It’s far too similar to occur by chance.
The concept of a return to physical combat in sci fi which had been previously dominated by ubiquitous lasguns, was a very original concept by Herbert. And it revamped combat to a more ancient romantic style. Or ‘more civilized’.
And Lucas again copied that with lightsabers.
The Empire and the Imperium.
The concept of royalty, a bygone agency that is a relic even in the present, was certainly an even more ancient relic in every other sci fi work to date.
Except Herbert brought back royal houses to sci fi. And here again, Lucas plagiarized him.
And from here we get Princess Leia, an amalgamation of Princess Irulan and Princess Alia. Both Independent and strong willed women in an era where women were once again relegated to a subservient role.
The machine wars was one of Herbert’s predominant themes. Lucas dumbs it down with his allusions to empty machines destroying humanity with Vader and the Death Star and the clones.
If you don’t see the similarities between the two, I wonder how well you read Dune. More likely not at all.
Because the similarities are unequivocal.
Great post @@bry8636
I re-read Dune Messiah recently and was dumb founded how I previously missed the twins etc was clearly plagiarized
The spice thing comes from the old east india company and theyr spice trade. Both take from that.
R.I.P. Frank Herbert
(1920-1986)
DIED so young!!
Such a tragedy he never lived to see the Denis Villeneuve adaptation.
@@mrvn000 66 is not young.
@@sanjayraju988 Unfortunately he would’ve been 101 if he could live long enough to see the most recent adaptations. That’s a very unlikely age for someone to live to. Too bad he only saw the 1984 version.
I met him at a book signing the year before. He looked fine. He was very friendly. I was 15 and my mom told him I wanted to be a SF writer. He was quite kind tho' I was furiously embarrassed by my mom.
If you think about it, western movies are so similar to themselves that they can easily find 15 to 20 identical things about each other. But they don't claim copyright infringement. I think the similarities between Star Wars and Dune are analogous and due to being both part of the same genre.
Originally the Jedi needed a crystal to access the Force. I suppose if he'd made it some kind of spice, then he should have paid for that idea.
Of course, Lucas sued over _Battlestar Galactica_ saying he owned space battles, which gives another point that he's a hypocrite after getting away with taking others' ideas. Though it was his head of special effects for _Star Wars_ that did the work on B.G.
It should be noted that Princess of Mars by Arthur Conan Doyle was a huge inspiration for Herbert, along with T.E Lawrence@@sandal_thong8631
😂
Yep. I’m sure some people think the book Dune was based off Lawrence of Arabia. 🤷🏻♂️
@@sandal_thong8631
There is absolutely no argument to Battlestar Galactica and Star Wars. But Dune and Star Wars is too much of a stretch.
"Dune is Star Wars for adults" - Denis Villeneuve
... And what does he know, right? ✌️ I like both Star wars and dune. Dune has no light swords, but on the other hand suits which seem to come in handy. 😅
Starwars is Dune for kids more like.
Dune is Star Wars for people on shrooms.
It's a strange opinion to hold, since their themes are completely different.
Dune is basically the opposite of Star Wars
I noticed similarity as a kid when Han Solo is called a "spice smuggler".
And "worm-like" Jabba the Hutt looks suspiciously like God Emperor Leto II on the cover of the 4th Dune novel!
Spice smuggling goes back thousands of years in human history. In Britain there was smuggling networks that were at war with the crown.
Barsoom ( john carter) novels are set on a desert planet and are about rescuing a space princess. They have sith, jedi ,banthas,padwans and were written in 1912.
So, a long time ago in a galaxy really really close
If you take apart concepts and messages of Dune and Star Wars, you'll see that they are completely different. And majority of similarities are ancient mythological archetypes, that they both and all other epic srorytellers borrow.
Also the direct similarities are mostly cosmetic. Sure both have an empire and a sand planet but they mean utterly different things. George Lucas is a little more obvious with these archetypes while Herbert brings in a lot more realism. I love both for what they are
Okay, let’s remove the concepts and messages, and we find that Dune is: about a boy on a desert planet (taken in by an ancient order of political warriors with incredible reflexes and the ability to mind-control people with their voice) trained to be a chosen one to balance the galaxy, grows up and allows an evil empire to rise while he obsessed over visions of his wife dying, becomes a shadow of evil for the new empire and has twin children-a boy raised in the desert and pursues a destiny to topple his father’s legacy, and a daughter raised as a princess who fights against the evil forces within the empire.
Wait a sec… it’s almost like the exact reverse is true!
Star Wars is a direct copy of Dune.
My feeling too. Apart from starting on a desert planet featuring bedouin like dwellers, the similarities are too general
I've always found as a story Star Wars was more like Lord of the Rings than Dune.
Don't forget the similarities between Leto II and Jabba The Hut.
I didn't see the similarities, leto 2 is an emperor and Jabba the hutt is a crimelord, the only similarities they have is they're both slug creatures, and thats where it ends. I maybe wrong as i only read the dune wikipedia, so correct me if im wrong
Lol. Good one.
@@gurkha630 >> Leto II becomes a worm.
@gurkha630 The relationship between crimelords and political leaders is thin. They are often one and the same.
I thought Jabba was closer to Baron Vlad Harkonnen
What of T.E. Lawrence... Lawrence of Arabia?? It's obvious... Dune is simply Laurence of Arabia in space, laced with religious and political influences.
George drew upon inspiration from many different things... Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon, Kurosawa Samurai films, Westerns, and many other things such as things rooted in political and religious influence and he made it timeless and his own... He said it acted as a love letter to many different things he loved. Was some of that likely derived from Dune? Yes, of course. Did he take all his influences and apply his own creative mind to form something original, vast, and unique? 100%
That's what separates Star Wars from Dune... While there are similarities... There are vastly many differences in the two IPs including each creator's individual visions for said IPs and that is what matters.
Indeed, well said.
Well said! 👏🏻
The similarities between Dune and Star Wars are simply because they both draw on archetypes seen often in legend and myth. I wonder if Herbert wanted to sue King Arthur too?
No they are not simply from archetypes, it’s obvious what Lucas took directly from Dune. They didn’t just like the same influences and coincidentally end up with similar stories. It’s beyond coincidence. Lucas obviously took from many sources. But it’s easy to understand why Herbert would be mad. To see someone pawn off your own ideas as fresh and take the world by storm with them.
@@king_supreme1102 By that logic, Isaac Asimov would be furious that Frank Herbert "stole" *many* of his elements from "Foundation" and pawn it off as his own; stealing all the fame, glory, and credit that was his for the taking.
Joseph Campbell's hero's journey is everywhere.
@@edjavas Dune is the antithesis to the hero’s journey. That’s the point. Anakin is a shameless copy.
@@king_supreme1102
Sorry but Lucas may have been influenced by the idea of a galactic empire from Dune but he may just as been motivated by historical empires. Do you think Herbert copied Seven Pillars of Wisdom since they are both in set in the desert and have a lead character that gets down with the locals.
forget about deserts and space travel and an evil empire. what Lucas took was a messianic character that fails his preordained destiny and rejects the organizations responsible for assigning that prophecy to him. After this failure. he has twins, one boy, one girl. And the male child fulfills this prophecy in a much larger way and then attempts to convince his father, the messianic character that was very different than what was wanted, to embrace his previous ideals, or at least the ideals he was expected to live up to. The Jedi were more accessible to most audiences, while the fremen were more immersive as a culture.
When you put it that way Like sounds like Leto II and Leia is Ghanima. Anakins fall is like Paul's exile at the end of Messiah. Anakins redemption only works as a parallel if you think of Paul living on through ancestral memory in Leto II but that's a stretch. Really, Paul's redemption comes through Siona.
Maybe he took those elements from _Dune_ in the prequels, but they weren't there for the original _Star Wars (1977)._ Vader wasn't even Luke's father until a script rewrite in 1978.
@@sandal_thong8631 Children of Dune didn't come out until they were well into production of A New Hope. Plus, we know that Lucas had planned on it being the second trilogy before he even started making the first film.
Luke in Star Wars was not Messianic. Luke is never at any moment venerated or worshipped. While his character makes a spiritual journey it is not some original concept that Herbert created. Luke’s story is nothing like Paul’s story. Their only similarities are being young.
Anakin not fail his destiny as all, he is destined to become evil. Because "Bring balance to the force" could be interpret as kill all the jedi.
If Lucas hadn't begun his saga with an episode set (for a little while) on a desert world, this discussion wouldn't even be happening.
Both Dune and Star Wars are heavily influenced by the movie Lawrence of Arabia.
George Lucas even deliberately sought out Alec Guinness because of his performance in Lawrence of Arabia.
If Herbert had gone to court then David Lean would have been able to action against both Lucas and Herbert.
Kind of a stretch since Lawrence of Arabia was based on real history.
Lawrence of Arabia came from a book too so David Lean even alive can’t make any disputes against borrowings.
@VogtTD how is it a stretch because real history is involved? That just doesn't make sense. If the similarities are there, then they are there. Fiction has been inspired by reality since forever. You just can't sue history.
A stretch are lot of similarities that Dune Fans want to find with Star Wars, not because there aren't any but because they are mostly superficial. Dune is much more similar to Lawrence of Arabia (the movie at least) than Star Wars is to Dune. An English officer joins the Arab natives for two years to overthrow the Ottoman Empire. He advises using guerilla tactics against the Ottomans. Lawrence becomes highly respected by the Arab tribes and he himself believes to be an extraordinary person with a destiny. It all culminates in the capture of the important city of Damascus. After the capture of Damascus, Lawrence becomes disillusioned and leaves for England. Does that sound familiar to you?
Good points that everyone is making here.
Another interesting thing I remember that actually has nothing to do with anything is: Lucas' friend, Steven Spielberg, has said that he himself loved the film Lawrence of Arabia. Spielberg said he always watches that movie once every year since it came out. So apparently Lucas and Spielberg were very influenced by that film.😊
I have read the entire Dune series, and have also seen Star Wars, many times. I have never even thought of comparing the two sagas, nor have I seen any similarities. Yes, Tatooine is a desert planet, but so what? There was also an ice planet, a swamp planet, a forest planet, an ocean planet, and a city planet. What similarities are these to Dune or any other science fiction story? None that I can recall. Let Star Wars be Star Wars, and leave it at that.
On top of that, Star Wars had to use its budget very wisely, the desert is easy to portray as otherworldly and it’s cheaper than building a set, sure he wasn’t twirling his mustache thinking “oh yea fuck Herbert lemme take his idea completely”
That lawsuit would have crashed and burned had he tried to file it. Most of the "similarities" have other antecedents that predate Dune and are things Lucas has made no secret of emulating.
Evil emperor. That's Flash Gordon.
Deserts. Those are in westerns. Lucas has cited Sergio Leone as an inspiration for Boba Fett. Alex Raymond did an arc in his Flash Gordon newspaper strip from 1942-43 called "Fiery Desert of Mongo."
Princess. Hidden Fortress.
Galactic Empire. That's Asimov's Foundation series.
Sword fighting. Flash Gordon and Kurosawa.
The reason Lucas has never cited it as an inspiration is because by the time he would have read it at the age of 21, he would have already been steeped in the various tropes that were the real reason he made Star Wars.
A desert planet and a spice smuggler seem to be the main influences, and they don't seem specific enough to warrant legal action. Same with the Royal House of Alderaan. Now maybe if he'd taken some names?
Perhaps he did go back to it for inspiration in _Return of the Jedi (1983)_ with making Jabba a slug-creature, and the concept of Skywalker twins, then _The Phantom Menace (1999)_ with the idea of a messiah figure or "chosen one," though I never felt that worked. What was "balance to the Force" supposed to mean, anyway? Also, the line "there was no father" from a slave is pretty cringe-worthy. Having the twins' mother die in childbirth in a future movie was rightfully mocked in parody shows ("Lost the will to live?!") even if it was taken from _Children of Dune._
@sandal_thong8631 Lucas probably did take a few concepts here and there. But it's not quite the same as what Herbert's fans like to believe that Dune was his beginning and end point. While Lucas may have taken the idea of there being a spice specifically from that book, it also appears in Poul Anderson's 1958 novel War of the Wing Men, whose main character is the head of the Solar Spice and Liquors Company. While that book doesn't use spice as a narrative concept, someone reading it might have been able to extrapolate something out of it given the actual history of the spice trade.
One of its other characters is named Lady Sandra who is heiress to the throne of an entire planet. The male characters sometimes refer to each other by the honorific Freeman. Granted the context of these words are different in Dune but so is the spice reference in Star Wars.
Larry Niven introduces the concept of "boosterspice" in his 1967 short story "Safe At Any Speed." That’s two years after Dune, but from Lucas’s standpoint writing in the mid-70s, all three would have already been established in the literary canon.
While it's possible Lucas made Jabba a worm/slug based solely on Dune, it too has antecedents in science fiction/fantasy literature. There's a draft of Star Wars that borrows a bit of dialogue from The Hobbit. Tolkien refers to Smaug as a worm at various points.
But oddly enough, a photograph of the Jabba maquette was made on April 26, 1981, the day before the New York Times filed its review of The God Emperor of Dune which it notes was already on the bestseller list.
It's possible Lucas said, "Replicate this cover," but the concept artists tell a different story of the process. They all submitted a variety of designs. One of the losing artists was under the impression that the winning design was a variation of the caterpillar from Alice in Wonderland.
@sandal_thong8631 "Balance to the Force" is later explained in Episode III that it means that the chosen one will destroy the Sith. Episode I concerns the Jedi's discovery of the re-emergence of the Sith which represents the Force being thrown into imbalance. Light side vs dark side is a metaphor for passivity vs belligerence.
This metaphor plays out in that neither the Naboo nor the Republic have an army. But the Sith do in the form of the droid army. That same Sith then causes the Republic to draw up a clone army to plunge the galaxy into perpetual war.
Anakin being called the chosen one fits in with a storycraft principle called "surprising yet inevitable." Basically, an ending should come as a surprise, but at the same time, it should be rooted in prior setups such that the audience concludes that it's how it was supposed to end. It's akin to a magic trick. The storyteller shows you the pieces that will come into play but causes you to forget it.
In this case, Anakin joins the Sith. Therefore, the prophecy must have been wrong and is easily disregarded. He will not be the hero who will destroy the Sith. But at the climax he does by killing himself in order to kill the Emperor.
@@MiguelCruz-oz7km In retrospect it probably would have been better if Obi-Wan was the one tempted by the Dark Side of the Force, say using it to win battles, and wanting to go on a revenge kick after the Sith who killed a Jedi in front of him. Then the twist for those who never saw Star Wars would be the Emperor gives up on tempting Obi-Wan and finds Anakin (what a horrible name) can be influenced as Obi-Wan says "do as I say not as I do."
But we're long past that and my hopes for a remake of the prequels (or at least Episode I) are dead.
@sandal_thong8631 at the time Episode I came out, I thought Lucas might have been headed in that direction because Obi-Wan is a bit of a hot-head in that film. It's hard to know if Lucas was thinking this and it's possible he was but it got lost in development. There's a bit of evidence that Lucas had planned for there to be a love triangle between Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Padme. It would have mirrored the Han, Luke, and Leia triangle, but maybe ending with there being some question as to the paternity of the twins. That would have brought back an even older idea from late 1974-75 where Luke’s old Jedi mentor was his father. Luke turned that character into Ben so that the masked mystery villain he had developed could be revealed as the father.
Everyone’s takes inspiration from things we just know about Star Wars because of how popular it is.Everybody takes little nuggets from different things but the difference with George is that he took inspiration and made something totally different.And the funny part is that Star Wars is the thing people most copy in film.
Only thing that is unique in star wars is lightsabers
Everything else are influenced by other franchises
@@yhggggvbb You'll find that Dune was influenced by earlier works as well.
And Herbert pulled a great deal of Dune from many stories himself. Dune is kind of Lawrence of Arabia in Space (or while Herbert was writing the book, before the movie came out, T.E. Lawrence's autobiography Seven Pillars of Wisdom). It's turtles all the way down. George Lucas is no more guilty than anyone else of being influenced by other works. Herbert's reaction was kind of silly.
@@yhggggvbb So is Dune. So is everyone.
thats right, sueing really is the anti creative force. just imagine if frank got sued before he sold even a hundred books? in art, being crap is the only crime. the difference between god and bad art is that good art can always be improved. bad art cannot. think on THAT
Dune's environents and ideas stand out, whereas Star Wars' characters and storytelling stand out for that series. They are both important.
Dune is Dune. Star Wars is Star Wars
Spice is Spice
Really?
My brother taught me, good artists borrow... great artists steal. But, George was stealing from everywhere... spaghetti westerns, samurai movies, the general narrative of the man who would be king, a general parodization of WW2... and more I'm sure. George did his own thing, but he did let his influences be known. It's hard not to this day in age. Ain't nothing new under the sun.
It makes me sad that Herbert couldn't accept that. He was probably still mad that Tolkien didn't like his books. What goes around comes around I guess.
I think that much like comparisons between Babylon 5 and Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, the similarities are pretty superficial. I'd honestly love to see the 16 points of identity, since the only two things I can really think of to compare are the existence of a desert planet and a galaxy-spanning empire. Whereas in Dune this planet is a focal point and of utmost importance to the empire, in Star Wars it's of little importance, and the movie leaves it behind soon enough. The empires and their leaderships also bear little resemblance, just as the protagonists bear little resemblance.
The studio and creators of _Star Trek: Deep Space Nine_ had access to J. Michael Straczynski's "bible" for his _Babylon 5_ show. That's why they made a show for the first time not set on a starship. They even took a character's name, Lyta, from the pilot to name a Dabo girl, which he said was a dare to sue them. He sued and I think got a settlement that he wasn't supposed to talk about.
Now the first Star Wars movie had a galactic empire (as did Asimov's Foundation, which is credited as being the first), a desert planet, and reference to spice smuggling. Several spices are grown in the desert or near-deserts (e.g. frankincense, myrrh). _Return of the Jedi_ made Jabba a slug-man. I didn't see 16 comparisons, but are these enough to pay some kind of royalties?
I can't find it with a search, but remember reading or seeing an interview that a sci-fi author got royalties for the James Bond movie, _Moonraker_ that used his scene of lovemaking in zero gravity, which doesn't seem that original. But maybe if it was an influence?
But it was Kurosawa's _Hidden Fortress_ that they were afraid the original script for _Star Wars_ might be plagiarizing.
Jedi Mind Tricks are Bene gesserit Voice
People who think Star Wars is a blatant copy of Dune is close minded. The idea of space and conflict come from Dune. However, Star Wars was initially about destiny and space samurai battles. The theme of Star Wars was hope, However Dune emphasizes the corruption of those who are at the top. Dune is way more intricate in terms of politics. Star Wars however, is very simple. I love the original Star Wars trilogy and the first four books of Dune. But I don’t think they are the same once you see past the surface level.
Really? Just watch Andor and note how almost Dune like it really is without the light sabers and Jedi force.
And the force.....and a clandestine group pulling strings.....and deserts...and.....yeah, SW is a lot like Dune
I haven't read the dune books, but I will say that these types of stories are so classic based on the hero's journey, that it's hard to deeply criticize Lucas for ripping off Dune blatantly. 16 points is a lot of points, I'm not sure. But I do find it funny that Frank called the film boring, that doesn't surprise me because from what I'm learning the dune universe is extremely complex, with lots of subplots and plans within plans as the book says. Crazy, I love them both!
Honestly, I think this whole claim is a bit of a stretch. I always thought of Star Wars as being a showcase of classic hero archetypes that just happened to be set in space.
And equating Tatooine with Arrakis seems disingenuous to me considering that Star Wars only features its desert planet as part of Luke's origin story whereas, in Dune, the desert planet is basically another character and is cited in the actual title.
Although my English teacher in 1978 called Star Wars "Dune for people who don't read", Star Wars (1977) is derived as much from Kurosawa's "The Hidden Fortress" as it was from Dune.
Star Wars was obviously inspired by a lot of works. George repurposed plots that worked and changed them up quite a bit. It's a lot like how the Eragon books were done, just much more subtle and had a better identity.
@@TheDalisama Most fantasy is reworked from previous ideas. The number of stories with kidnapped princesses, magic orbs, and boys discovering their man-hood is countless.
@@TheDalisama
Repurposed plots. You mean he was influenced by archetypes?
Not being involved in a copyright issue and having enjoyed both franchises, I was able to see them both for what they were and not draw too many parallels that would spoil either one. I love them both and can separate all of the extra bs.
One universe got rid of all droids while in the other their all slaves, F
For those who've seen any of the Dune films or read the book, you can so tell George Lucas was a Dune fanboy. Heck, I could see a heck of a lot of similarities between the two franchises when I saw Book of Boba Fett.
-both have an emperor and two rival factions. The emperor chooses one of the factions over the other. The emperor chooses the sith over the jedi (in early star wars drafts, the jedi bendu were the bodyguards of the emperor until they were replaced and hunted down by a rival faction, the sith). The emperor chooses the harkonnens over the atreides
-chosen one/messianic figure on desert
planet (Luke Skywalker, Paul atreides)
-sardaukar, stormtroopers
-monastic order/society of mystics connected to protagonist (Bene gesserit and Paul atreides, jedi and Luke skywalker)
-Protagonist goes against agent of emperor because the protagonist believes the agent to be responsible for his father's death only for it to be revealed theyre related to each other (Paul atreides and baron harkonnen, Luke Skywalker and Darth vader)
-the force, the voice
-Protagonist leads/joins rebellion against the empire/emperor partly because of revenge for fathers death. In dune, the fremen believe Paul Atreides to be the mahdi and launch a jihad against the harkonnens and the empire. In star wars, Luke Skywalker joins the rebellion against the empire.
@@manuelpanisse5991yes, and it’s not just messianic figures.
Anakin, the original ‘chosen one’, fails, as did Paul, who was meant to bring peace to the universe as Anakin was meant to bring blacks to the force.
So Like picks up the mantle of messiah to restore the universe, just as Leto had done.
So it’s not just a messiah figure, but a failed messiah and then the sons of failed messiahs succeeding where their fathers had failed.
The descendants of villains with Paul and Jessica being descended from the Baron to Luke and Leia being descended from Vader.
The return of close physical combat with shields and Lucas copied with lightsabers.
The Empire and the Imperium.
The retirn of royal houses to sci fi.
Well after Herbert died, after the prequels, I recall Lucas admitting his love for the Herbert Dune series, but that he had assumed with everyone else it couldn't be made-implying the Lynch and other efforts didn't count. Lucas didn't elaborate to admit copying anything at all. I think sci-fi fans of that era made broad distinction that Herbert's books were of some higher status-literary, philosophical, perhaps, and that Star Wars, by contrast, hadn't even the esteem as literature it had later, as inspired by Campbell. It was still considered mostly for kids. Now that Dune is blowing up, I can count at least 16 details stolen. But I still find it hard to count any of those as sufficiently thoughtful or meaningful as they were in Herbert. There is a superficiality or even visual gloss Lucas brought, where he is vague and visually symbolic where Herbert was cerebral and conveyed literary structure. So Lucas leveraged the Dune series by referring visually, which I do think is a form of wrongful appropriation. Lucas did owe a ton of dinners, and probably admission of direct influence. I really love all the Herbert books, the early ones were excellent and deserve treatments too. Perhaps it is time to rediscover Herbert.
Lucas story is about evil and family. And the concepts of tyranny. Hardly something that Herbert can claim as original. The concepts of a galactic empire are not the sole creation of Herbert either.
To the tune of "Mr. Ed"
🎵Ohhhh... The Force is The Force, of course, of course
And Fremen can't master The Force, of course
That is, of course, unless The Force is The Weirding Way instead🎵
I love both Star Wars and Dune.
Jodorosky admitted he had absolutely zero interest in making an even remotely faithful film adaptation.
You can definitely tell Dune was a huge inspiration for Lucas but, with that being said, I don't think Herbert would've had much of a case. Neither replaces the experience of the other which I think is the most important thing dispite the similarities
I find it more revealing about non-creatives. Herbert and most other successful creatives knew everyone references or takes inspiration from each other, either consciously or unconsciously. Even if they didn't, similar genres bred similar settings.
Yet everyone around him, from friends to fans, kept badgering him about if and when he was going to sue. I can't imagine how annoyed he must have been. It must have seemed like kindergarten politics, when Lucas was probably someone he would have liked to be friends with instead. Remember, like all other types of successful people, artists and creatives feel most comfortable among people like them. Not among throngs of fans or sycophants who falsely project their own rivalry on the creators. Among other creatives who have created great works like them.
The “Galactic Empire” and “Young Hero with an Aged Mentor” are sci-fi and fantasy tropes, so there goes 2 of the similarities. Only a part of Star Wars takes place on a desert planet, unlike Dune where it’s 95% of the movie. There’s a reason he never sued, and it’s not because he was “too big to sue George Lucas.”
I love how Herbert is a true author in a sense that if his work did inspire he’s more excited and happy about it being an inspiration than it being copied. Very commendable and showing of how times have changed; or maybe artist have changed.
So when Dune Pt. 1 came out, a friend of mine who had never read the books (or possibly even heard of them) left the theater and called me to say he didn't like the movie, it felt like they ripped off Start Wars!! I was like yeah, the movie is based on a book that came out in 1965, and Star Wars is from 1977 soooo!! 🙂
The only similarities between "Star Wars" and "Dune," that I can discern, are:
1. A desert planet.
2. Spice mines (though the spices mines in Star wars are on "Kessel," not "Tatooine"; spice in Star Wars is only mentioned once in a throw away line in episode IV; there is no reference to what "spice" does to someone who ingests it in Star Wars) 3. A galactic empire (though there are dozens of sci-fi properties with galactic empires [yet Star Wars lacks the "Great Houses" aspect of politics] including... Flash Gordon, which Lucas openly stated was the type of story he wanted to make, and, by the way, pre-dates Dune by three decades)
5. A galactic "savior" (though the Star Wars "savior" wasn't groomed by the Jedi, like the kwizatz haderach...he just sprang from "the force," a plot point that is absent from Dune altogether).
"Dune" is anti-religion while "Star Wars" is pro-spirituality.
"Dune's" savior is testament to how hero-worship destroys society, where the savior of "Star Wars" brings balance.
-both have an emperor and two rival factions. The emperor chooses one of the factions over the other. The emperor chooses the sith over the jedi (in early star wars drafts, the jedi bendu were the bodyguards of the emperor until they were replaced and hunted down by a rival faction, the sith). The emperor chooses the harkonnens over the atreides
-chosen one/messianic figure on desert
planet (Luke Skywalker, Paul atreides)
-sardaukar, stormtroopers
-monastic order/society of mystics connected to protagonist (Bene gesserit and Paul atreides, jedi and Luke skywalker)
-Protagonist goes against agent of emperor because the protagonist believes the agent to be responsible for his father's death only for it to be revealed theyre related to each other (Paul atreides and baron harkonnen, Luke Skywalker and Darth vader)
-the force, the voice
-Protagonist leads/joins rebellion against the empire/emperor partly because of revenge for fathers death. In dune, the fremen believe Paul Atreides to be the mahdi and launch a jihad against the harkonnens and the empire. In star wars, Luke Skywalker joins the rebellion against the empire.
@@manuelpanisse5991 the difference is Luke is actually a hero and doesn’t kill 60 billion people.
@Hardrive2677 yes. I just meant that it's clear George Lucas was inspired by Dune. There are many similar ideas and concepts between dune and star wars
Spice itself is a reference to the spice trade in actual Earth history. In Dune, it's important for very practical Space Reasons. On Earth, the middle east/Asian spice trade was extremely profitable and provoked wars, but ultimately the spices were literally just seasonings for rich people. In Star Wars, maybe the spice mines just made stuff Jabba put on his frogs before he ate them.
Yes there are similarities but there is so much that is just so different.
Agreed!
I think Dune reads better and Star Wars films better.
he has no case cause, herbert does not have jedi and there are common elements that any body could use. u cant sue due to two stories have an empire, or a savior. how many stories have these same elements.
Paul dreams about his wife dying in childbirth
Same as anakin in star wars
You still believe lucas didn't have stolen anything from dune ?
The Bene?? He could sue but decided not to. Stop lying thanks.
@@thomasmuandersontheneousul4184 Mystical religious societies. The Bene have little in common with the Jedi. The Jedi act far more like King Arthur’s knights of the round table, where as the Bene Geserate are more akin to the KGB or CIA in how they operate. Either way both star wars and dune are decently generic as far as setting and base story telling and even then there are tons of differences. What you’re saying is kind of like saying Spider-Man “ripped off” Superman, because they are both super-powered crime fighters, with red and blue costumes whose secret identities work for a newspaper with a cranky boss. Sure when I say that they sound identical, but it ignores all of the vast differences between the two. I feel like you’re kind of doing the same thing with Dune and Star Wars.
nah, there's obvious influence from Dune in SW, but that can be said for any work of fiction, including Dune. Acknowledging what SW got from Dune doesn't mean SW has no merit; it's just how art works.
@@yhggggvbb "While preparing to give birth, it’s not uncommon to dream about death. To the dreaming mind, it often means that your life, as you know it, is ending or changing, says Loewenberg. “These dreams are very common during pregnancy because lots of changes and endings happen along the way. Our sense of self changes, relationships change, old ways of thinking die off,” she says." - Lauri Loewenberg, a certified dream analyst, speaker and author
I think the 2021 Dune film did a better job of making the characters (at least the protagonists) more identifiable and relatable than the novel or the 1984 film. Star Wars always (until 2015, anyway) had easily relatable and likeable characters, something I feel Dune has struggled with until now. If you want to get technical about it, both stories are just Joseph Campbell's hero's journey stories on extraterrestrial planets. Dune does disguise that influence a little better than Star Wars in my opinion.
Dune actually deconstructs the Hero's journey. Paul is not a good guy nor is he the main character.
@The Eye Creature What do you mean “toned down” you mean you want all the exposition dumps that works in books (voice over) into screen? 1984 tried that and it still was bad because such style doesn’t translate well when you switch up between mediums. I watched 1984 Dune in high school before I read Dune book and I was very much put off by it because of how all over the place they translated stuff, visually which left me so confused and not immersed by its world.
Whereas I managed to be able to digest Star Wars easily because it knew how to translate its ideas, visually. When I eventually came to read the books, I found them to be more digestible than how 1984 did it because in literary medium it works wonders. Which is why 2021 Dune is better because it understands what ideas best to illustrate them visually without overwhelming exposition dumps that only confuses rather than informs well anyone seeing it.
I'm just gonna list a few of the similarities and maybe some differences here. Regardless however, I love both Star Wars and Dune and find both unique enough to themselves.
Similarities: Desert planet, Arrakis and Tattoine. An evil Empire. One of the main antagonists has a disability of sorts, Vader having to wear a suit that keeps him alive, the Baron unable to support his own weight, have suspensors carry him around. Ancient religion, Jedi and the Bene Gesserate. The ability to control using speech, Jedi mind trick and The Voice in Dune. The villain has blood relation to the protagonist, Vader, Luke's father and the Baron being Paul's grandfather. Tuskon Raiders and Fremen.
Differences: Droids are used in Star Wars but AI of any kind is illegal in Dune due to a war with AI that was won thousands of years prior. While both feature a princess, one is being rescued, the other apart of the Empire. The Force while showing some similarity is unique. Space travel, Star Wars lightspeed, Dune Guild members fold space so a ship travels without moving. A Space Station capable of destroying a planet, this would probably be considered Illegal in Dune as certain kinds of weapons can not be used on living beings. The Empire in Star Wars seem more openly evil. Paul becomes Emporer while a New Republic is formed after defeating the Empire. Lightsabers while knives are the primary weapon in Dune due to the existence of shields, that only slow weapons can get through and if a laser were to fire on a shield an explosion would happen, the scale of which unknown (it could be small, it could be massive)
There are plenty more of both but I'll finish here
The concept of the savior being descended from a villain with Paul and Jessica being descended from the Baron and Luke and Leia being descended from Vader.
That theme is both overt as well as specific.
Herbert wasn’t the first to have a messianic figure, but here is where Lucas’s plagiarism gets very specific.
Anakin is the original ‘chosen one’. Paul is the Kwisatz Haderach meant to bring peace and prosperity to the universe.
Anakin fails as the messiah. Just as Paul fails.
But Luke picks up the pieces and rights the wrongs of his father. Paul’s son, Leto did the same.
So it’s not just a messiah, but an initial failed messiah, and then the son that restores humanity.
It’s far too similar to occur by chance.
The concept of a return to physical combat in sci fi which had been previously dominated by ubiquitous lasguns, was a very original concept by Herbert. And it revamped combat to a more ancient romantic style. Or ‘more civilized’.
And Lucas again copied that with lightsabers.
The Empire and the Imperium.
The concept of royalty, a bygone agency that is a relic even in the present, was certainly an even more ancient relic in every other sci fi work to date.
Except Herbert brought back royal houses to sci fi. And here again, Lucas plagiarized him.
And from here we get Princess Leia, an amalgamation of Princess Irulan and Princess Alia. Both Independent and strong willed women in an era where women were once again relegated to a subservient role.
The machine wars was one of Herbert’s predominant themes. Lucas dumbs it down with his allusions to empty machines destroying humanity with Vader and the Death Star and the clones.
Looks like a bit of a stretch to say 16, when he may have used two or three things from _Dune._ Also, anything after the original _Star Wars_ like Jabba the Hutt and the Skywalker twins could still be plagiarism, but weren't present in the original _Star Wars_ so are less relevant to the original argument of whether _Star Wars (1977)_ took too much from _Dune._
To be fair, Herbert in turn borrowed from Asimov. Psychohistory predates Prescience.
I don’t think psycho history & prescience are the same thing at all. Psychohistory is essentially a big computer churning a bunch of numbers to predict future events. Prescience is more a mystical gift to see the future.
@@FranzBazar - Nothing "mystical" about it. Although Herbert himself was initially a little undecided as to whether a prescient was really just a very high-performing mentat, or if they had the ability to perceive higher order dimensions. He settled on the latter explanation. But you will still find many references in Dune articles and discussions about prescience just being mastery of math and using it to calculate the future, with Other Memory as a source of historical precedents. Notably, the Spacing Guild (the most prolific users of prescience) are described as being focused on "pure mathematics".
Indeed, Paul was raised to be a mentat, and Leto II inherited that via Other Memory. It is implied to be what allowed them to sift through so much extrasensory information and narrow their focus on seeing what they were looking to see.
I think there are obvious inspirations from Herbert's Dune that are in the Star Wars original trilogy and prequels, but I also believe it removes the fun of being a writer. When we worry too much about what is considered "ripped-off" or "stolen" we lose the passion in wanting to create art. People are going to be inspired by something, I just don't think it's fair to discredit someone's creativity, even if it's not freshly original, because you remember the source material from before.
Well said.
Evil empires, religions and... deserts... are pretty basic ideas that exist in many stories. To say star wars ripped off dune is nonsense. Did it possibly inspire some of what Lucas did? Sure. But Dune was no doubt inspired by a lot of stories that came before it too, that doesn't mean anyone was 'ripped off''. We are all inspired and influenced by what came before us, nothing we create is completely original.
Not nonsense the theft is real
@@thomasmuandersontheneousul4184 see lawrence of arabia and how much dune copy from it , see Norse myths and how much lord of the rings copy from it , see the history of Rome and how much game of thrones copy from it . Its impossible to make something completely original. If something feel original it means they copy from many sources...
@@tarunindoriya902 Beowulf is public domain
There is no evidence Herbert took from Lawrence of Arabia
There is a credible case the source material MIGHT be in Dune and I will deal with that soon
@@thomasmuandersontheneousul4184 frank Herbert was read the book " seven pillars of wisdom " which is written by lawrence. So he clearly was inspired by that , and there is nothing wrong with it untill you add some material and concepts of your own. Same with star wars , George lucas clearly took ideas from dune , samurai , the hidden fortress and hindu mythology but he add many things of his own . And one more thing people forget when they take credit apart from star wars is that dune is a noval and star wars is a film , and with a film u have to shoot it , star wars revolutionized cinema forever by adding all those special effects and in camera wizardry. It was begun with space odyssey already but star wars take it to whole another level. I respect dune as much as you and obviously it is much much more mature and complex and brilliant than star wars but it makes me sad when people said they stole everything from dune and ignore all the hardwork and art that went into making those movies .....
But even the underlying story has similarities
Paul is Anakin from goodie to baddie , both were promised ones who did not make any better but worse
They both get children one boy and one sister , the mother died because of the birth
Both sons Leto and Luke then took that promised role and fulfilled much more than their fathers
Then there is the twist that the baddie( Vader / Harkonnen) is actually related to the protagonist
If you look at old Samurai movies, the Valerian comic books, the Dune books (of course), Westerns, etc., it’s difficult to not think that these things influenced and inspired George Lucas
Finally finished a reread/listen of dune, going to see dune tomorrow. Thanks as always coach
I think the estate of Frank Herbert, if it's Lawyers are not suing both Lucas Film and Disney now, they should.
I needed a good laugh DUNE and Star Wars couldn't be any more different, I have read the DUNE multiple times and can not even figure how many times I have seen Star Wars. As you say George has stated many times what has influenced him in creating Star Wars and you can see them clear as day inside his work but DUNE come on I don't care who you are that's funny. One really needs to know what the difference is between Sci-Fi and fantasy.
I think the claim that Dune is simply “sci-fi” and not in part a “space opera” (like Star Wars) is not quite right.
@Disrupt the Imaginary there is no magic in sci-fi hence the sci or science in sci-fi. Simple and clean.
@@ericbrown8627 magic is a part of science
@Tom Katt, you joking right? This is a problem with the world today. Magic has nothing at all to do with science, My god science is real and magic is straight made-up fantasy.
@@tomkatt8274 ?
There's clearly things inspired by Dune in Star Wars. But as many similarities there are, they are substantial differences. Luke isn't a prince. There's hooded desert people, but they are scavengers, spice is just an addictive drug and doesn't have metaphysical properties, the Imperium in Dune doesn't blow up planets with a giant space station, there's Krayt dragons on Tatooine but they are just large animals of which we only see a skeleton. Lucas took lots of inspiration from all kinds of sci-fi that already existed, including as Herbert mentioned the writings of Asimov, especially the Foundation Trilogy. It was probably the massive success of the original Star Wars movie that made people even care to make comparisons.
Game of Thrones is more of a ripoff of Dune than Star Wars is.
Huh I had never considered this comparison. Can you tell me if I’m on the mark here? The murder of the father sets into motion the journeys of his child(ren) and widow, banished from their lives of privilege and power and everything else they had known, desperately fighting to find new lives and new strength in foreign places and people. Eventually returning to enact their vengeance on the villains who patricided their noble and beloved papa, meanwhile their journeys have seismically shifted the entire universe, specifically upending the balance of power, and the future will never be the same. So many other little bits of dune story dust comes to mind while tracing the general outline of the story, but wow, that is pretty similar in itself. Bran the broken, incestuous bad guys, mentats and snakes and backstabbers, but I guess the politics stand out most as sharing a philosophy and understanding of the nature of power and the dynamics between the people surrounding it. Gosh, now I have to go rewatch the show. Thanks a lot.
Star Wars is pretty blatant with its Dune rip offs honestly. I also find it a little telling that George is always willing to talk about all the influences or things he straight up took from other movies and put in Star Wars, but he never mentions Dune. I've only seen two movies in my life with moisture farming people on a desert planet. The Sarlac pit is literally just a sand worm that doesn't move. Prada-bindu is the name of the Bene Gesserit training, George originally called it Jedi-Bindu but changed it. Not to mention the Kessel spice mines. Jabba the hut is pretty damn close in appearance to Leto in God Emporer, a big worm creature who controls everything.
There's a lot of really direct comparisons and I find it weird that George wouldn't mention it. He's super open about that stuff
@@ReeferMan191 The problem with all of those comparisons is that there are strictly Tatooine based, and Tattooine in Star Wars is a random, backwater planet is only importance to the Star Wars universe is it being the temporary home of three of its main characters (Anakin, Luke, and Obi-Wan) before they all planned on leaving one day, eventually left and had no personal urge to come back. (Yes, AOTC & ROTJ are the exceptions, but those were strictly for the purpose of rescuing/freeing someone they cared about, and NOT for some universe defining conflict over the most valuable material in all of life). I find it weird how so many people say George Lucas pretty much plagiarized off Dune, but yet most of them go straight to the base level Tattooine comparisons and nothing else. I'm frankly surprised I've seen no one on the this topic tried to claim that the Rebellion vs the Empire narrative is ripped straight from Dune, the "Selfless vs the Selfish" internal conflict/philosophy is ripped straight from Dune, or how Luke's entire arc in the OT is ripped straight from Dune, or how the main antagonist (Vader) turning good again by the end is ripped straight from Dune (even though all of these are NOT).
comparing ds9 to b5 makes dune and starwars similarities barely noticeable. btw, b5 was original
Much like LOTR, I can very much appreciate and admire the creative genius of both Herbert and Tolkien, even though I'm not as big a fan of their actual stories. I think the reason Star Wars struck such a visceral cord with me as a child was because it is very much a simplistic fairy tale in space. Good and evil are so clearly defined. Well that and light sabers of course 😆
I was born on Nov, 1977. I enjoyed the Starwars saga like most. That being said, I love Dune in ways that I can not describe. Likeness is not the same thing. When a story touches the soul in a way that can not be described, It is pure magic. Dune brings home the truth of our world, and it should be looked at as a 2100 century bible. Do not trust blindly, my friends.
Dune was given the treatment of an art film rather than a B movie. However, Valerian also claims inspiration on sci fi filmmaking
valerian
@@mrblack5024 valerian
Valerian first and foremost is a comic book series, which was released prior to Star Wars and has frankly little in common with Dune, they barely go on desert planets and doesn't have much of the Dune-like political intrigue.
I am sure other people heard Goerge Lucas say several times during development and production "hey... like Dune "
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
Frank Herbert owns a copyright on deserts LOL
LOL!
Excellent explanation of the Star Wars vs DUNE comparisons!💖🐻
Influenced or inspired? Yes. A copyright infringement? Absolutely not. I think his ego was a little hurt because SW was such a financial and critical success, while also revolutionizing special effects and the science fiction genre. I would be a bit jealous of that, too. Dune on the other hand, while maintaining a solid cult following, didn't take proper flight until Denis' vision came to the screen.
I think Kurosawa and Campbell were more important to Lucas than Dune was.
I think he discovered Campbell after making _Star Wars_ but since the comparison made them both look good, he promoted that myth. But I did here he had to change the script of _Star Wars_ because one of the initial ones was too close to _Hidden Fortress._
I think Coach @Echo Base Network; If Anything Frank Herbert ripped off LAWRENCE OF ARABIA %100; Lawrence is Paul Atariedes; Fremen are the Arabs; The Ottoman Emmpire are the Harkonnen; OIL is THE SPICE and SAND IS SAND; George Lucas Ripped off Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers not Dune which Herbert should have been sued himself
Does anakin dreams about his wife dying in childbirth ?
Are Luke and leia twins ?
Why fear is a weakpoint of jedi ?
@@yhggggvbb Dreams of a loved one dying are pretty darn common in literature and mythology. It’s pretty basic foreshadowing. This whole thing kind of reminds me of how people will say that The Lion King ripped off Kimba, when the only things that they have in common are lions being the king of beasts in Africa.
I find it kind of ironic that Herbert's son was complaining about Lucas ripping off his dad, when he had no problem monetizing Dune for his own benefit later with a bunch of crappy novels. And he hired one of the more overrated crappy Star Wars novelists to do it!
Star Wars is far more similar to John Carter from Mars
Frank Herbert was the greatest, he is missed dearly 💔 it breaks my heart that George Lucas never did credit or acknowledge the influence of Frank Herbert’s Dune like you mentioned!! This withholding is the biggest suggestion of Plagiarism on his part… Lucas didn’t mention Dune because Star Wars was largely a copy.
Well said!
To be fair, Lucas borrowed heavily from the French comic _Valerian_ as well as the old pulp comic _John Carter_ - Frank Herbert built a massive, sprawling universe largely from the ether of *Imagination.*
That and the story of T.E. Lawrence and his involvement in the Arab Revolt (which got betrayed) against Ottoman Empire, Arthurian legends, other Messiah myths from history...
Star Wars was structured on Kurosawas "Hidden Fortress" with what Kurosawa called "A Worms Eye View" referring to two peasants who have a similar view to R2D2 & C3PO
IMHO
Have you EVER looked at Joseph Campbell (George Lucas was his best student)? He answers all these types of questions directly. Star Wars is the hero’s journey just like Dune. It’s a literary formula used by all good story tellers for thousands of years. But don’t believe me just read “The Hero with a Thousand Faces”. Or watch the Bill Moyers interview with Dr Campbell about Star Wars, done and done, Nuff said.
It is sad to me that Herbert felt this way….
Edit, if you didn’t know about this…. You’re welcome ;-)
I don't believe Denis Villeneuve ever read Dune, some fan in his circle must have pitched him on the idea to direct it.
Taking inspiration from something is not the same as violating the copyright. Frank Herbert doesn’t have a copyright on stories set on desert planets with hooded natives involving religion, an evil galactic empire, and a chosen one. He has a copyright on HIS story about those things. What, did he copyright the desert? Religion? Hooded natives? Of course not, because he couldn’t have.
With all Respect, you've misunderstood.
California copyright law allows you to protect unique ideas, very specifically in one Instance: the protection of a movie proposal. This is because it's an early part of the business of movie making and there isn't unlimited audience for multiple adaptations at once
So if you see a very specific idea and the studio passes, but does that anyway, you can use.
Also if you crib too many ideas for a movie from an original work they can sue. Terminator was and owed an author credit.
Remember is a business and this business is protected by unique ip and film law.
@@AdamBlackNothing about Dune is specific enough to give them a copyright on an entire ecosystem. The Herbert’s would lose that lawsuit, even in California.
After listening to many Frank Herbert interviews, made over many years, it's clear enough that Herbert tried to be everything for everyone. So no movie has ever been made, and no other movie will ever be made, which doesn't "copy" Dune.
Paul is both the underdog everyman and the omnipotent deity. Leadership is the core theme of Dune, and its leaders cover a spectrum from omnipotent to powerless, transparent to esoteric, idealist to sycophant, egalitarian to brutal savage, saviors to tyrants... And Herbert was very proud to say that the ultimate moral of his story was that the ultimate calling in life is to have no specific calling - ideally; we fulfill our destiny as a unit which can be assigned and reassigned wherever happenstance & pragmatism leads us.
Just imagine if he knew where Star Wars was headed.
The only difference is that Star Wars is exciting and Dune is boring....
George Lucas just stole loads of Herberts good ideas.
Herbert also stole loads of Isaac Asimov's good ideas from "Foundation." There is no work of creativity that is purely original, and just because something isn't purely original doesn't make it straight up plagiarism.
Star Wars is one of the greatest movies you can share with a child less then eight years old.
00:22 I have the same wallpaper but without motion, where did you find it?
I Star Wars, never really grabbed me and do love Sci fi, but it just seemed so cheesy. My brother tried to frame it for me, that for the time it came out, no sci fi movie had ever achieved that level of immersion and attention to detail, and that's why it was so new and great, for that time. I guess so and no disrespect but it still falls flat for me.
This is almost like saying star war is like star trek it's just silly the tone and messages are so very different and the similarities are from being in the same "genre" and that's it. Is master and commander a ripoff of Pirates of the Caribbean just because it setting and time period are semi close? No and you would be a fool to say or even think it
I could look at any sci-fi film and find 16 points of identity in them from Dune. Themes are universal, there are only so many stories that can be told and retold in slightly different ways but to say Star Wars is a rip-off of Dune, I call BS.
Star wars is just a mash up of many established franchises...
Talk to Frank it was theft
At a book signing in Eugene, Oregon, on December 1, 1977, Herbert is undecided on what to do. “I’m not going to get into any technical arguments about that,” he tells the Statesman Journal. “They have in other words invaded my copyright and I have to fight them.”
Spice, Desert Planet, Moisture farms, Large Sand creatures, Visions/The force.
These ideas are definitely borrowed from Dune and go beyond themes. I love SW but let's not let our bias cloud the fact that these similarities could not possibly be coincidental.
@@christian_cantarutti Nope - Lucas took things like it or not
@@thomasmuandersontheneousul4184 Frank is an asshole, then.
George Lucas took concepts from so many works, both aged and contemporary, to develop the Star Wars universe. I enjoy both DUNE and Star Wars very much, and I'm saddened to learn that Frank Herbert interpreted Star Wars as stealing from his work. I'm also sad to learn that J.R.R. Tolkien couldn't fully enjoy DUNE. Star Wars is a fairy tale in space. DUNE is a sci-fiction story that gives warnings about religious and messiah type figures. The Lord of the Rings was written by a Catholic in J.R.R. Tolkien who wanted to write an epic of old, like Beowulf, of how good ultimately triumphs over evil. All of these stories can be enjoyed independently on their own, as they should, written by very different people.
I think Star Wars took off in the 70 because the craft was so high level and the movies was kind of down to earth and many people related to Luke and the rest of the characters. Now Dune is a visual masterpiece and people appreciate Villneuve for that, even though the subject is way past the norms of our scociety it is kind of relateable now with all the technological advances and it is more entertaining then what the direction Star Wars is heading to.
I'm sorry, but Frank Herbert doesn't have the MONOPOLY on desert planets or galactic empires! NEITHER does George Lucas!
Isaac Asimov owns Galactic Empire.
Thanks for another great video! This was very interesting!!!
“But I will try hard not to sue” 💔 He knew
Disney destroyed star wars just in time for the new dune movies to come out and wow were they awsome, Herbert revenge 😂
George Lucas put fantasy character archetypes, the hero's journey, and Buddhist/taoist philosophy into the Science Fiction/Fantasy setting, effectively creating a story where a moisture farmer encounters two droids, a sage like mentor, and a rogue/captain and his partner to rescue a princess from a tyrannical galactic empire that has her imprisoned on the empires recently completed superweapon capable of destroying entire planets.
Frank Herbert created a deconstruction of charismatic political and religious/messianic figures set in a future intergalactic society where royal houses and quasi-religious organisations fight for power over the only planet that produces the spice melange that contains geriatric properties and also functions as fuel, alluding to a loose allegory of wars over oil in Iraq and the Middle East in general. Also, religions had been effectively mixed together and are being used as a tool of manipulation by the Bene Gesserit. The story follows a 15 year old boy who, over the span of 3 years achieves a heightened state and limited quasi-magical/spiritual foresight and omnipotence from the spice after being taken in by the native population following the fall of his house by the hands of the planet's previous tyrannical lords. The boy uses the native population to overthrow the planets leaders and the emperor who used them to destroy the boy's royal house, effectively taking control of the planet and the galactic empire.
The stories have numerous differences and similarities, the biggest difference being Star Wars is built off of archetypes and tropes and Dune is centered on a critical deconstruction of the chosen one trope and real world leaders. There's far more similarities between the first Dune Trilogy and the Star Wars Prequel trilogy than there are with the first Dune Trilogy and the original Star Wars trilogy, though there are a lot of surface level similarities and broad tropes shared between both sagas in their entirety. God Emperor of Dune actually shares the trope of a small rebel force trying to topple a tyrannical galactic empire, but Star Wars (A New Hope) utilized the trope first, so to say that Star Wars borrowed from Dune but Dune didn't borrow from Star Wars would be inaccurate. However, it looks like Star Wars took more from Dune than Dune did from Star Wars and most of what each took from the other is very general tropes, archetypes, and locations. The biggest similarities being the following:
1. Protagonist on a desert planet with potential for magical power.
2. The second generation protagonist is a twin.
3. A galactic empire full of corruption.
4. The protagonist following a morally questionable path to protect the ones he loves and try to make the universe a better place/less corrupt (Anakin and Paul).
5. A worm-like creature in a position of power.
6. A religious warrior organization.
7. Rebellion as a theme and an organization.
8. Slavery.
9. Sand Crawlers
10. Mastery of emotion.
11. Fandom specific weapons (Lightsabers and Crysknives).
12. Genetic manipulation and cloning (Kaminoans & Bene Tlelax/Tlelaxu).
13. General Science Fiction/Fantasy things like space vessels/travel and large amounts of physical, political, and religious/spiritual power.
ua-cam.com/video/8J4LYVs5Gg4/v-deo.html
I'd add the biggest similarities between Star Wars a new hope and Dune are in aesthetic more than philosophy.
Dune _could not_ take anything from Star Wars, it came before yk
I agree but I don't think Dune took anything from Star Wars. I don't feel like God Emperor was specifically inspired by the rebel aspect of Fune, but I suppose it's possible.
@@vandnatyagi4898 God Emperor was published in 81.
Nice summation.
The spice melange was not used for fuel. It was inhaled by the Navigators of the Spacing Guild as a means of seeing a safe path through space. It gave prescience to the Navigators as well as the Bene Gesserit. The Fremen consumed spice on a regular basis. Spice gave health and an extended lifespan to all who used it, but it was so highly addictive that withdrawal led to death.
Paul’s wife (concubine) died giving birth to his twin children: a boy and a girl. Anakin’s wife died giving birth to his twin children: a boy and a girl.
The Bene Gesserit developed their enhanced mental and physical abilities through a training method called prana-bindu. In the original Star Wars script, the Jedi Knights were called Jedi-Bendu.
The Bene Gesserit were able to manipulate people through use of the Voice. The Jedi had something similar with their “mind trick” using their voice, as Obi Wan demonstrated on the stormtroopers in A New Hope.
The design of the Sarlaac in Return Of The Jedi, with its rows of pointy teeth, is very close to the description of the mouths of the sandworms in Dune.
The God Emperor Leto II, a human/worm symbiont in the 4th Dune novel (published in 1981), seems to have inspired the appearance of Jabba The Hutt in ROTJ (1983).
It's fairly clear that Herbert wanted _everything_ in his book onscreen, so I'm not wholly confident even Villeneuve's adaptation would satisfy the author's own aspirations for a Dune movie, but I do think changes of the kind made were necessary to bring Dune to the cinematic medium.
The popularity of DUNE almost insures nobody is going to use a desert planet in a science fiction story again. I saw Star Wars in 1977 before I even heard of DUNE in the early 80's.
Lucas doesn't mention Dune as an influence for Star Wars because he would've been confirming that Dune is much more than just an influence.
I can identify similarities between Dune and SLAN by A. E. van Vogt who settled for a payment of 50K from the makers of Alien, for its similarities to Voyage of the Space Beagle. Dan O'Bannon admitted that he and Ronald Shusset, the co-authors of the script (Star Beast / Alien) stole from everybody, which didn't help with any defence to the contrary :-)
"Star Wars films for Adults." as said by a pompous ass that doesn't know how to enjoy a fun fairy tale adventure. I wouldn't doubt if Lucas took some inspiration from Dune, but I'm sure you can examine Frank Herbert's life and interests and find things that he took his own liberties with. That's how human creativity works. Star Wars may have some similar themes as Dune, but it has a completely different feel. Dune requires more intellectual rigor to enjoy it, but sometimes you just don't feel like having to examine the nature society and mankind just to have a little fun.
Total agreement! I think Lucas took more inspiration from The Wizard of Oz for Star Wars and then with the success of the movie expanded the story he already had in mind. To me, the first three movies were the best, and chapters 1-3 & 7-9 were meh. As for my opinion on Herbert, I think he suffered too much rejection from publishers and in lucidity created the Dune universe. To me George is a better visual storyteller, while Frank uses the printed page.
“He’s a three P-O,” they said, meaning that such a person surrounded himself with cheap copies made from déclassé substances. Even when the supremely rich were forced to employ one of the distressful three P-Os, they disguised it where possible behind O-P (the Only P), pilingitam. Burzmali knew all of this and more as he set his people searching for a strategically situated pilingitam near the no-globe. The wood of the tree had many qualities that endeared it to master artisans: Newly cut, it worked like a softwood; dried and aged, it endured as a hardwood. It absorbed many pigments and the finish could be made to appear as though it occurred naturally within the grain. More important, pilingitam was anti-fungal and no known insect had ever considered it a suitable dinner. Lastly, it was fire-resistant, and aged specimens of the living tree grew outward from an enlarged and empty tube at the core."
-Heretics of Dune
The stories are completely different. Sharing some sci-fi tropes doesn't change that.
I love how people write something with age old tropes in it, see something else that someone else did with age old tropes in it, and immediately thinks they're being ripped off, because they're so brilliant, their idea couldnt possibly be anything but original. I wonder if he saw some of the actually blatant ripoffs of Star Wars, and thought the same thing. "These folks are copyring me, too!"
I bet once he started hearing about Lucas being inspired by Joseph Campbell, Flash Gordon, etc, he was mighty embarrassed.
I just lost a lot of respect for Herbert thanks to this video.
Ain't nothing new under the sun... if frank herbert had been smart he would have gotten george lucas to make his movies, not start a beef with him.
I like George Lucas, and what he has done, but if he had made Dune, it would’ve been watered down commercialization. It wouldn’t have been nearly as good as Denis Villeneuve’s version.
The 1980s Dune was directed by someone best known for a deeply disturbing flair for horror. No wonder it tanked badly. George Lucas’ movies resonated with audiences worldwide and his characters continue to inspire new series and countless books decades later.
Watch the 12-Chapter serial of Flash Gordon made in 1936 and then watch Star Wars. George took the Opening Crawl, 3 plucky heroes (2 men and 1 woman) blasting off to adventure in space ships, getting in dog fights with other ships, FREQUENTLY crash-landing on Jungle planets, Ice planets, and DESERT planets, fighting people, aliens, and robots with swords and ray-guns, all under the grip of an imperial Emperor who wants to control the galaxy.
Watch Akira Kurosawa's 1958 film, The Hidden Fortress, and then watch Star Wars. George took the 2 bickering, 2nd class citizens (and made them the robots R2 & 3PO), he took the screen wipe transitions, he took the story of a venerable old general rescuing a beautiful princess who's trying to retrieve something of great value from a hidden base.
Watch The Dam Busters, a British WWII film from 1955, and then watch Star Wars. George took the final canyon run sequence and literally borrowed lines such as "I'm going to cut across the channel and try and draw their fire," (becoming, "I'll cut across the axis and try and draw their fire.") There are you tube videos showing the two sequences side-by-side, and the similarities are astonishing.
Read (or now, watch any version of) Dune, and then watch Star Wars. George borrowed the Joseph Campbell "Hero Myth" about a kind of "chosen one" who happens to have the right genes to channel a mystical power that allows him to see possible futures. The hero rises to power to some degree in the desert, and his family is killed by the henchmen of an evil Empire. It turns out George's hero - like Herbert's - is tied directly to the highest levels of galactic power, and leads a rebellion which overthrows said power. George ultimately borrowed the "twins" born of a fallen hero idea from Children of Dune and put it into Return of the Jedi, and in doing so, even allowed Star Wars to echo some of the elements of incest that feature in Herbert's novels.
Now watch The Searchers, with John Wayne, from 1956, and then watch Star Wars. George borrowed the desert landscape and rocky canyons, along with a story about two heroes tracking down a beautiful girl who's been kidnapped by their most feared enemies. They get distracted by an adventure and return home to find the hero's family killed with their farm house smoldering with black smoke and the inhabitants dead. This incident compells the heroes to continue their journey into the heart of enemy territory.
Lucas also credits The Wizard of Oz, Triumph of the Will, The 7th Voyage of Sinbad, Fritz Lang's Metropolis, and 2001: A Space Odyssey. The funny thing about it is that George tried to sue Glen Larson for making Battlestar Galactica (friendly robots, a space cantina, two heroes who are also pilots, etc., etc.) Ronald Reagan for borrowing the name for his "Star Wars" Defense program, and many others who have been equally "inspired" by his finished work (see Star Chaser: The Legend of Orin for one of the more entertaining yet egregious examples; the trailer alone should suffice, lol). I'm sure John Carpenter was none too thrilled to see Friday the 13th - especially when it's profits eclipsed the Halloween franchise, but he couldn't sue until Luc Besson made Lockout, a sci-fi actioner that feels very much like a sequel to Escape from New York. He won that one. There are those who believe there are only seven basic plots at the end of the day, and like Campbell's "Hero with a Thousand Faces," those seven plots are simply redressed time and time again ad infinitum. When Kurosawa saw The Magnificent Seven - a western with the same basic plot as his Seven Samurai - he didn't sue, but instead sent Sturges an authentic Japanese sword. Sturges said it was the greatest gift he'd ever received.
Hero Myth Movies are a dime a dozen now: Star Wars, The Matrix, Conan the Barbarian, The Beastmaster, Tron, The Chronicles of Narnia, The Hobbit/ Lord of the Rings, Abrams' 2009 Star Trek, Harry Potter, Avatar, Batman Begins, Superman: The Movie, Man of Steel, Iron Man, Clash of the Titans, Percy Jackson, The Lion King, and the list goes on and on, culture to culture, with only one real rule for success - each time you tell the story, the hero needs a brand new face. Lucas didn't plagiarize Dune any more than Herbert copied Tolkein by telling the hero myth in a new setting, but keeping the richly detailed foreign languages and the surprise betrayal of a trusted friend, a harrowing journey into the wild lands, and the epic wars that ended one age and began another, and all that.
Look up "John Williams plagiarism" and see how original you think the grand master of modern film scores is while you're at it, lol. When artists make "love letters" to the art that inspired them, they always run the risk of hitting too close to the mark. The trick, I think, is to take inspiration from a multitude of sources and TRY to come up with ways to make it "original" or more likely, "uniquely yours." Thanks very much for the video!
So do you think Rey fails because she doesn't have a "new face" and has too much Luke Skywalker beats?
@@Hello-bi1pm The Force Awakens made 2 BILLION dollars, hardly a fail. I did NOT enjoy Last Jedi, but it made 1.3 BILLION, also far from a fail, and Rise of Skywalker made a BILLION dollars, and THAT is why Rey is coming back in her own movie fairly soon. I don't think Rey failed at all as a character - her "new face" worked just fine - but I do think the sequel trilogy stories failed to do the original and prequel trilogies justice. Still, they were still entertaining enough to pay off the cost of buying Lucasfilm with BILLIONS (in merchandising profits) to spare.
I think Starchaser: The Legend of Orin failed because it wasn't a "new face;" just look at the poster and tell me that's NOT Luke Skywalker. I think Equilibrium (with Christian Bale) failed for similar reasons - look at the poster and tell me that's NOT Neo from The Matrix. The only way you can really get away with it is to bring back a popular hero, like Luke in Return of the Jedi. Structurally, it's A New Hope all over again. Starts on Tatooine, ends with an attack on the Death Star, lots of short, sweet, pit stops inbetween, but it's different enough that it feels fairly fresh and new. The Force Awakens kept George's "tone poem" going by starting on a desert planet and ending with ANOTHER Death Star, but Rey was a hero with a brand new face, and I thought it worked overall. Same with Battle Beyond the Stars, The Last Starfighter, Serenity, and Guardians of the Galaxy. They were different enough to be satisfying even though they're in the same genre. Same with Clash of the Titans and Jason and the Argonauts, two greek "hero myths" with the same classic tropes, but different enough to feel fresh.
Campbell's book, The Hero with a Thousand Faces, inspired Lucas, and many other filmmakers since. Audiences tend to love that basic story, but its nice to see other story structures too.
I love SW but Dune is the scifi GOAT in my book
AMEN BROTHER... THANK YOU FOR UNDERSTANDING
Well Star Wars is pretty much the epitome of science fantasy, so I’d say they’re both GOATs in their own way.