Bartonella Treatment: Antibiotics Basics (Clarithromycin, Rifampin, Rifabutin), My Experience, FAQs
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- Опубліковано 4 лип 2024
- I review the basics of the antibiotic protocol that I intend on taking, once my mast cell activation is better controlled. I intend on taking this protocol based on the expertise of my two Bartonella literate medical doctors and my own anecdotal experience. I then address some common questions about this protocol.
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Time stamps:
0:00 Intro
1:32 Basics of the antibiotic protocol
5:02 Why did I choose this protocol?
7:43 My experience with this protocol
11:23 Why use clarithromycin over azithromycin?
13:35 CYP3A4 pathway introduction
14:25 Interactions between clarithromycin and the rifamycins
14:37 CYP3A4, cortisol, hormones, and prescription drugs
15:27 Interactions between clarithromycin and rifampin
16:26 Interactions between clarithromycin and rifabutin
16:54 Neutropenia and raised liver enzymes (ALT, AST)
18:16 Uveitis
19:45 Why use hydrocortisone? Aren't steroids bad to use with infections?
21:17 How and when should I take my antibiotics?
21:47 Why not doxycycline or other antibiotics?
22:49 This protocol seems too long/aggressive
24:27 Future videos on treatment
Videos referenced:
Galaxy's webinar with Dr. Mozayeni (and Dr. Breitschwerdt): • Understanding Bartonel...
Jack and Amy's bartonellosis success story!: • Jack And Amy's Bartone...
Studies referenced:
1. Biswas, S., Maggi, R. G., Papich, M. G., & Breitschwerdt, E. B. (2010). Molecular mechanisms of Bartonella henselae resistance to azithromycin, pradofloxacin and enrofloxacin. Journal of antimicrobial chemotherapy, 65(3), 581-582.
2. Kazama, I., Saito, K., Baba, A., Mori, T., Abe, N., Endo, Y., ... & Yamauchi, M. (2016). Clarithromycin dose-dependently stabilizes rat peritoneal mast cells. Chemotherapy, 61(6), 295-303.
3. McDonnell, A. M., & Dang, C. H. (2013). Basic review of the cytochrome p450 system. Journal of the advanced practitioner in oncology, 4(4), 263.
4. Wallace Jr, R. J., Brown, B. A., Griffith, D. E., Girard, W., & Tanaka, K. (1995). Reduced serum levels of clarithromycin in patients treated with multi-drug regimens including rifampin or rifabutin for Mycobacterium avium-M. intracellulare infection. Journal of Infectious Diseases, 171(3), 747-750.
5. Hafner, R., Bethel, J., Power, M., Landry, B., Banach, M., Mole, L., ... & Cohn, D. (1998). Tolerance and pharmacokinetic interactions of rifabutin and clarithromycin in human immunodeficiency virus-infected volunteers. Antimicrobial agents and chemotherapy, 42(3), 631-639.
6. Griffith, D. E., Brown, B. A., Girard, W. M., & Wallace Jr, R. J. (1995). Adverse events associated with high-dose rifabutin in macrolide-containing regimens for the treatment of Mycobacterium avium complex lung disease. Clinical infectious diseases, 21(3), 594-598.
7. Aronson, J. K. (Ed.). (2015). Meyler's side effects of drugs: the international encyclopedia of adverse drug reactions and interactions. Elsevier.
8. Crabol, Y., Catherinot, E., Veziris, N., Jullien, V., & Lortholary, O. (2016). Rifabutin: where do we stand in 2016?. Journal of Antimicrobial Chemotherapy, 71(7), 1759-1771.
9. Zimran, E., Shilo, S., Florescu, T., Dotan, S., Balag, S., Mevorach, D., ... & Amer, R. (2012). Paradoxical response in ocular bartonellosis. Journal of ophthalmic inflammation and infection, 2(1), 53-56.
Best diagnostic testing:
www.galaxydx.com
Dr. B. Robert Mozayeni's research use only confocal laser scanning microscope with fluorescent tags for Bartonella henselae:
www.tlabdx.com/
#Bartonellosis #Bartonella #Bartonellatreatment #BartonellaBabe
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✩ Thank you for supporting my hard work and my channel!
✩ 25% of all proceeds go to the Bartonella Project at the North Carolina State University College of Veterinary Medicine. To donate directly to the Bartonella Project donate via this link through the Bartonella/Vector Borne Disease Research Fund:
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P.S. Evidently I haven't mastered the arrow tool in Final Cut Pro and I just upload videos with messed up arrows! Oh well
Excellent video! You need to keep making these videos they're very informative. thank you!
Gosh wish you were here. Love you so much Jake!!!!!!!!Jesus Christ is Lord!!!
You’re videos are so informative! You’ve taught me so much about this disease, you put it all in layman’s term so my Bartonella brain can understand. Thank you! 💕💕💕💕
Thank you Sasha ❤️ 💕 💝
Another great vid Jake 👌
thank you ❤️
Great video. Have already watched the original lecture, but this was a very helpful refresher, and funny!
haha thank you so much Alfonso!
I can tell you from first hand experience that PZA hits bartonella very, very hard. Intense herxing.
Another excellent video Jake! And thanks as always for the laughs!!!
My pleasure! Thanks for watching! ❤️
My name is actually Jake! 🙂
I absolutely loveeeee your video's! Just amazing!!! Thank you so much for putting them together for all of us! You are a natural in front of the camera!
Thank you so much! And thanks for recognizing it's a lot of hard work 🥴
Wow you are just amazing. Thank you for doing these videos. ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️ I am having a Bartonella relapse and MCAS and it’s so overwhelming.
Thank you April! It’s very overwhelming and I say a big gaping hole for patient education especially around bartonellosis so this has been a labor of love for two years. Hopefully we both can get to feeling better soon! ❤️
Thank you for great helpful content
Thank you!! ❤️❤️
Thank you Jake. I played this video on two computers.
U da best!
Hi Jake - to your point about taking antibiotics 6 months - several years, I can speak to having some success with my current antibiotic protocal, going on 1 yr 2 months now to treat mycoplasma pneumoniae. It could be more time (another 6 months - 1yr) until my mycoplasma pneumoniae infection is down within the normal ranges, it has been very stubborn.
My primary care (Rheum/lyme literate) is great, and when I've mentioned in passing to other doctors that I've been on xyz antibiotics for 1+yrs they freak out, but I was also on antibiotics here and there as a teen for acne and no one was concerned. Being consistent and finding the correct combo of antibiotics is the way to go.
Also wanted to share I was able to get a confirmed diagnosis of hyperadrenergic POTS (via tilt table/autonomic lab) which is a good thing but also kind of sucks that I was right lol that POTS is one of my issues. At least I can start on a treatment plan for the hyperadrenergic POTS here soon.
Hi Ashley! I also was on antibiotics for over TEN YEARS for acne and nobody batted an eye. If I could go back and not do that, I would but I don't blame myself. So yeah, if being not being disabled from bartonellosis means taking a shit ton of antibiotics, I couldn't care less. So glad you have a POTS diagnosis (not that you have POTS obvs). Sounds like you got another piece of the puzzle on the table
I first tried Azithromycin for a month then switched to compounded Liposomal version (then went back to regular version for the last month on the medication lol) which kept me stable while on it, but I didn’t make any longterm progress and it stopped working after a year. So then I tried Bactrim and that messed up my MCAS badly due to the sulfa. My doctor had me take molybdenum which majorly helped my body process the Sulfa but then my body reacted to too much molybdenum 😅 Bactrim sort of worked, but then I think stopped working after 3 months which was fine because my MCAS couldn’t handle it anymore. I am now on this combo you’re talking about (started w/ Clarithromycin a little over a month ago and recently getting to full dosage, then today I added Rifampin starting at 150mg 2x/day). This video has been very helpful and makes me hopeful! If it becomes an issue, I now know to make my doctor aware of the liver enzyme elevation and reduced WBCs possibly being due to Bartonella, and also adding Hydrocortisone if needed 😊
You’re so awesome!!! And funny!!!
Hi!! I also have bartonellosis and I love your chanel :D
Sorry to hear you have bartonellosis but thank you so much for watching and commenting!
I was on bactrim/doxy as my first treatment right after I was diagnosed and I had elevated liver enzymes. my anecdotal experience supports Dr. M's hypothesis. my LFTs became elevated after my first course of abx had ended. by that point the amount of medication in my system should've peaked and begun to level off which suggests that the toxicity was related to something other than the drugs alone.
also I love this look because you match the wall!!
ooh so interesting!!! Where are you at with your treatment now? And now I just need a background in every color to match my outfits 💁♀️
@@BartonellaBabe I've been at a standstill last spring. to make a very very very long story short, my local BLMD came up with a plan to try and decrease my inflammation acutely and strengthen my immune system to sort of prepare my body for the abx/die off from the abx. she wanted to try some IV cocktails in combination with some herbal antimicrobials and hyperbaric oxygen therapy, but I had venous access issues and then covid hit so that plan was brought to a halt. I also haven't had a triple draw done in a while so we're trying to figure that out too before we revamp the treatment plan. since my college is in new york I'm also trying to see some different people there who are more specialized in bartonella, but we're trying to figure out what we can afford in terms of out of network provider costs. it's buck wild.
@@nintando It's wild for sure! Have you had a positive triple draw ePCR in the past?
@@BartonellaBabe I'm pretty sure I have but it was like four years ago now so it's all kinda hazy. at my last blood draw my veins were so bad and there were other more urgent labs I needed so it got pushed off. my most recent IFA was still >1:256 so we're treating based on that and the fact that I'm still symptomatic.
@@nintando gotcha gotcha yeah well if you're still symptomatic then you just gotta keep trucking along!
Have you read "Toxic
- Heal Your Body from Mold Toxicity, Lyme Disease, Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, and Chronic Environmental Illness. A great deal about Bartonella, MAST cell issues and related issues including mold
Yes I actually recommended it in one of my first videos. It's a great book to start with!
I just tried the Clathiromycin / Rifabutin combo and I have to tell you it was insanely strong. I herxed so hard I thought I was going to die. It was unreal!
Yup it's definitely something to be worked up to but I think it is currently the most effective treatment combo we have, although of course it won't work for everyone because there is no one right way
@@BartonellaBabe yeah I learned the hard way that you can’t jump right into it. Also causes a lot of side effects that you have to be very careful with as you referenced. You really need an expert to guide you in this treatment protocol.
@@BartonellaBabe 7uuuu
I was on clarithomicin and metrizadole and I was so sick and then came down with Cdiff. I’ve never been so sick in my life. I had to stop
Amazing video! I’m curious about methylene blue and what you’ve learned about its use in concert with clarithromycin and Doxyciline. I successfully treated Borrelia and babesia with disulfiram and am now turning my attention to bartonella. Thanks!!
Hi Seth! Thank you. There is a methylene blue for Bartonella group on Facebook. The smart admin there basically determined that for it to be effective for bartonellosis, you would have to take fairly high doses and no one knows how safe that is, especially long term. People taking it at lower doses (50-100 mg a day) say they feel better. That is most likely due to its nootropic effects. I suggest you add yourself to that group but that's the skinny on MB
DSF cleared your Babesia and Borrelia after how long? I’m currently taking DSF and I’m up to 93.75 mg a day and I’m still burning, buzzing and ice pick in my head. I was just curious I hear people say that it helps them to remission, it gives me hope!
@@sashaw.8231 Hey! Im also on Disulfiram for lyme and have the worst pains of my life which seems to be my bartonella co. infection. Did you combine DSF with antibiotics?
@@dutyofcall7659 yes I do. I’m doing better as I’ve increased my dose, Clarithromycin and MethBlue. Gotta keep at it!
Hello, when the rifabutin is later introduced is the protocol dose also around 300mg 2x a day? Thank you so much for your amazing efforts and work. I’m purchasing a kit from galaxy this week.
God bless you 😗
Bartonella Babe Hi. How did you diagnose your MCAS? What specialist did you see for that and what specific tests did yo do? Thank you
I have been in treatment for 3 yrs now. Last week saw a new Lyme physician for a new pair of eyes and ears. Bartonella is still there. I've probably had Lyme and Co's for well over 20 yrs. I'm struggling so much ( and financially). This is horrible.
I'm so sorry to hear that. I agree it's truly truly horrendous. I hope your new physician adds something meaningful to your case ❤️
“Burbur pinella Umbrella coachella” 😂
I would respond with more but I can't think of any more! 😂
@@BartonellaBabe rewatching this video, and my ears are being blessed with your umbrella bartonella cover again! 😂love it
Bahaha Rihanna better WATCH OUT
My doctor is recommending SOT IV therapy. Have you tried it?
Just a thought/question... What about DHEA and/or pregnenalone in addition to or in lieu of hydrocortisone? These MAY help replenish other hormones as well...
Interesting thoughts for sure! I am not going to act like I know a lot about DHEA or pregnenalone but you gave me something more to research 😊
What do you think about Dapsone, I heard that it works well with persistent bacteria like Bart?
I know that one of my Bartonella literate medical doctors has used it but only for certain patients under certain conditions. I'm not sure what those conditions are. He doesn't generally use it though so he must have his reasons. My other BLMD has never mentioned it to me. I know Horowitz uses it a lot and I know that it has anti-allergic effects which may (or may not) be helpful for those with MCAS. If you join our Breaking Down Bartonella support group on Facebook, you could ask in the group and you may get some helpful input from others
My llmd wants to start me on doxycycline lmfao we all know that's not strong enough for bart and its suppose to be a 2 combo antibiotics for bartonella. For lyme, doxy never did much so maybe bartonella has been my problem all along.
Hey, Do you Pulse during the titration period. Also, sometimes I think the "herxing" reaction is the bacteria causing symptoms by activating its immune system its established in your body. Like no bacteria has died yet, but its causing more intense symptoms as a reaction to the presence of a threat. Just a thought, because I will get awful reaction within days..which is too quick for bacteria to die I think. :)
Hi! So actually antibiotics can work immediately, especially if it's a high dose. If you're having an awful reaction immediately, it technically could be a herxheimer reaction or it could be an MCAS reaction or a drug allergy and there are probably hundreds of other types of reactions, both known and unknown to doctors and scientists.
Pulsing is, in general, not recommended unless the doctor has a very good reason for recommending this to a patient. So pulsing, in general, is not used during titration or treatment for bartonellosis. Some doctors do this for all of their patients. I, personally, don't think this is the "best" way based on the division time of Bartonella but anecdotally, some people have gotten better this way and there is no one right way to get better 🙂
@@BartonellaBabe Yeah, I think the titration period is a really good idea to gradually build up. I thought that it took at least 30 days for the antibiotics to kill bacteria. Like it has to break down pieces of it before its all gone. Does the anti biotic just run into a bacteria and its over? Or how many milligrams of antibiotics does it take to kill one bacteria? lol I think I'm getting a little too literal, but its a lot to think about. What do you think of treating Lyme and Bartonella at same time. Maybe the pulsing would work for Lyme, but not for the Bartonella. I've taken Teasel Root for Lyme, which was intense. It has the ability to realign and heal muscles and joints. Even bones. It also takes the bacteria out of deep tissue and puts it into the blood stream. I wen't to the hospital because of a really bad herx with Teasel. I've taken Sida Acuta nd Houttynia for Bart. That was really intense as well. The antibiotics I've taken for Bart. are Tetracycline and Rifampin. But, I'm interested in Dapsone and Bactrim. I think one of the main problems with treatment plans I have tried is that I started with too many things at once. I hope I can convince whatever doctor I choose to see to do a gradual build up.
So I was just curious how much you have looked into B6 ? I ask because I was looking into CBS and MTHFR gene mutation and both are related to B12 and B6 defficiency. I found out Im very defficient and all my B vitamins. I have very bad ADHD and mental irraticness with is related to B vitamins. Seems there is a link to B vitamins deffcienies and all of my symptoms. I know you take B12 and B3 but what about B6 and others?
All the B vitamins are very important. And all the other vitamins (A, C, etc.) and minerals (selenium, molybdenum, etc.). I am slowly adding these in one by one because of MCAS. Linus Pauling is a great resource for learning about vitamins and minerals
Your hilarious between all the big words 😂
How did the protocal end up working for you?
Unfortunately, I have had to stop treatment due to severe nutrient deficiencies from food intolerances /MCAS/SIBO so I am working on that first. My most recent update is here: ua-cam.com/video/MtHI4z3KWr4/v-deo.html
Lost my 63 year Old fiancée to complications due to heavy antibiotics use for lymes diseases which caused kidney damage and anca vasculitis ! Older people be ware !
I have a Q if anyone could answer I would be really grateful! Are there any "withdrawal" symptoms or changes once finished with a course of rifampin?
I am not a doctor so of course take this with a grain of salt (or more) but I don't think there are typical "withdrawal" symptoms. However, I can see that a patient might feel very different once stopping rifampin, both in positive and/or negative ways. Stopping rifampin before bartonellosis is completely treated into remission could lead to a relapse so that would make a patient feel worse. Stopping could also lead to cortisol being processed and eliminated from the body less quickly (CYP3A4 pathway) and this could make a patient feel better from less of a "cortisol drain" so to speak
did you get bart independently from lyme?
Yup I did
No doubt you have already checked out Dr Tanya Dempsy
yes no doubt!
How are you getting the MCAS under control?
Hi Doris. I have very severe MCAS and have been struggling with it for two years. I currently am on 6-7 pills of Benadryl a day, 60-80 mg of Pepcid daily, and 6 mg of Valium. I have tried many, many other meds and supplements for MCAS and have not tolerated them. I’m hoping that continuing to treat SIBO will get me to that next step
@@BartonellaBabe Wow that is a lot of benedryl... does it make you sleepy or do you eventually get over that? I ask questions because my son is 20 and diagnosed with non speaking autism and isn't able to communicate to me what he is experiencing... We have only figured out in the last couple of years that he is experiencing Histamine overload and it has been affecting him all his life and nobody was able to figure out what was wrong till he had some life threatening reactions to some medications... He has always reacted to food... I do know benedryl works well for him but we usually only use it for extreme flares and the rest of the time he "suffers" through it... I currently have him on Doxy and Rifampin and going to ask our dr. to change it up to clari and butin cuz we arent seeing changes with the first two... she also wants to start him on disulferam soon.... He has a lot of severe stomach pain after he eats and eats basically chicken and some vegetables that are low histamine... I am very impressed by your videos and they have been very helpful to me...
@@WarriorsForWalter It doesn't make me sleepy and it never did. Some people do gain a tolerance to the sedative aspect while others don't. Benadryl is great for flares but do you have him on maintenance H1 and H2 blockers? Second generation H1 blockers (Zyrtec, Claritin, etc.) are much less drowsy making and provide 24 hour coverage because of their longer half lives. Also, when you make the switch to clarith and rifabutin, I would ask your doctor to only make one change at a time so you can better suss out what is doing what, especially since your son is non-verbal. Same with adding disulfiram
😍
Hey, i'm infected with both bartonella henselae and lyme disease which breaks out
simultaneously last year and ruined my health completely. I'm currently on disulfiram to treat lyme-disease but my bartonelloasis get worse so I'm not sure what to do, any ideas?
I can't give you medical advice but I would ask your doctor about slowly starting meds to treat the bartonellosis 🙂
@@BartonellaBabe Thats what I thought as well, my doctor would like to give me Azithromycin + Rifampicin + Disulfiram, maybe that's an option.
@@dutyofcall7659 that sounds like a good option and eventually I would switch out the azith to clarith. Also very important to not start everything all at once
@@BartonellaBabe a quick feedback: I'm on bartonella treatment now for 3 months with roxythromycin and rifampin, did you ever heard of this macrolide?
I’ve heard of that macrolide but I have not heard of any patient in my group of over 2000 use it and neither of my BLMDs have mentioned it to me. From a quick glance at is pharmacokinetics, it looks like it isn’t great at targeting intracellular bacteria, which is a big disadvantage for Bartonella so this is probably why it isn’t really used
I think I never had MACs, because nerve had problems with food and antibiotics. I am currently taking Azithromycin, rifampin and levaquin because rifabutina is not an option in my country, Yeah I've been taking probiotics and vitamins.
Sounds like you're on your way to healing!
@Thais Ferreira Você tem "Doença da Arranhadura do Gato" ou Bartonelose Crónica?
@@Luna2010PT Tenho a doênça de lyme que tb transmite a bartonella junto com borrelia e babesia, atualmente estou apenas tratando bartonella crônica pq já eliminei as outras infecções. Se vc tem a doênça da arranhadura do gato precisa dos antibióticos que estou tomando.
@@thaisferreira8241 Obrigada, Thais. Sabe há quanto tempo (e como) contraiu a sua infeção? Eu terei sido infetada há cerca 2 meses...
@@Luna2010PT me manda msg no insta @thais_csf4
Maybe you should treat your MCAS first. Your MCs are healthy?
👍🙋♀️
I've heard rifampin and rifabutin can make u feel really depressed or an increase in the neuro phsyc symptoms? My llmd said this to me as well and recommended tetracycline to start with and maybe azithromycin or clarithromycin bt idk lol I have enough neuro phsyc symptoms , even japanese knot weed I became sensitive to which has never happened. Must be herx
hello dating with severe neuro Barto phsiquiatric symptoms by mistake flighted so much can do it all but this do Dr rage madness is it doable ABx imposible 4 me on ldn and later antiparasitics and ozone iv but do u actually goo mad or it seems I can do it all but sane¡ I. m in Spain and imagine without brain knowing how to heal or help what they would do? scared
Hi Marta. Sorry to hear of your suffering. I suggest you join our support group on Facebook called Breaking Down Bartonella. Please add yourself to the group, answer the group questions, and then we can admit you. There you can ask questions and get support ❤
@@BartonellaBabe thanks I. m a member 😊
Bitte mit deutsch Untertitel ❤️🙏
German subtitles are here! And 20 other languages too
I can't tolerare rifabutin. I take A-bart.
Excellent information but the silliness is very annoying!