Regarding 1992 service manual the Subaru pump can handle 15l/min at 0,2 bar. That doesn't give a hint of why the subaru pump is so good in this aplication. At 12V this pump draws 50W or 4.2A. In this range are many pumps with even double flow rate at the same pressure. It seems that a good pump design without cavitation is the main key to a good flowing system if there is a bit more differential pressure. For my next project I'll try the Pierburg CWA150 pump. This pump is made for higher differential pressure with a new designed impeller and it is PWM controllable. This pump is rated for 25 l/min at 1.4 bar differential pressure, this should be plenty if it comes close to reaching the specifications and dosen't cavitate. There is also a standalone controller called "tinyCWA" from Tecomotive available which provides pump and fan control, pump overrun, venting mode, warning lights etc.for this and similar Pierburg pumps. But, a simple two stage pump with a relay and some 15W resistors should do the job too if you can find a pump which dosen't cavitate. I'll compare the Subaru pump against the CWA150 as soon as possible. But unfortunately that won't be until next year.
I'm a fan of Denso everything even spark plugs and this is a Denso pump fitted to a number of vehicles including Honda Odyssey and Toyota pickups . I tend to leave Bosch well alone after dismantling an alternator and finding the noisy bearings were unbranded . I believe Denso alternators are the only brand approved for kit plane building in the US .
Search “Prius 12v inverter cooler pump”. There is somebody on UA-cam who has run a fountain constantly from one for 3 seasons. That’s what I’ll be trying because Subaru pumps are like hens teeth in the UK it seems.
The Subaru part number of this pump is 45640AA000 or 45640AA010 but both are very rare. You can find similar denso pumps in Toyota Hiace (part number 16290-74010), Bentley (part number PF30955PB) etc. Search for older style Denso 064100 pumps with metal top.
Fascinating! Your videos on water/air intercooling make me want to try it sometime to have control over IAT's aside from just the ambient temperature. I'm not so sure I ever will though as I really like the simplicity of an air/air intercooler and I'm not one hundred percent sure of how to actually control the pump speed (how to PWM the pump) especially if I eventually was in a situation where I wasn't using a full standalone ecu. In thinking about all this though, I wondered if the inverter coolant pump from a Prius (circa 04-09) would work well.
PWM control of pump speed is pretty easy, even without a standalone ECU. 12V motor speed controllers are available quite cheaply on eBay and use a potentiometer control input (ie a knob). Typically that involves a variable 5V signal, and this signal can be derived form a normal car sensor eg throttle position. Even easier is to just use some series resistors switched in and out - a technique I cover in this book - www.amazon.com/gp/product/1787113930 I haven't played with a Prius pump but I imagine it would be quite suitable.
I think the main reason the pump cavitating is because theybhave to pull water from suction side through quite alot of restriction... This can be mitigated by placing the pump to pull water directly from the reservoir tank and pushing water through all required flow.. Letting the pump do just pushing work flow should be the way to go.. Something like: Reservoir > pump > water heat exchanger > boost heat exchanger > reservoir
Cavitation would only really happen if the system was not pressurised, for a hot water system where you have expansion as well glycol cavitation is less likely to occur. Also as you mention if the pump inlet has no flow restriction, you would mitigate any cavitation. Have you looked at Davies craig pumps?
Yes. When I first tested them, Davies Craig pumps were among the worst I ever saw - and their response to that testing, in a personal meeting, was abysmal. Hopefully they have got better since.
Also a pump that is more efficient is more likely to experience cavitation also as well as one that is less efficient. If a pump has very little re-circulation from exducer to inducer it is more prone to experiencing cavitation, but it is also more effective at creating higher pressure.
Cobalt SS used that Bosch pump from the factory for the intercooler circuit. Tests have been performed on these pumps and they have different conclusions. Maybe your application had specific requirements and it did not meet them.
where did you find that small water reservoir for the intercooler? i cannot find any water reservoir that is small like that, only the huge tanks and not sure how to plumb it into my W2A setup. I have the same intercooler you have in your test.
have you tried Davies Craig 9040 pump? Probably one of the most expensive small pumps i've seen so I am curious about it. It's brushless, and I don't think most of the others are (???) I've got that Bosch pump in my system right now... looking for improvements.
Resistor to give slow pump speed whenever car is running and then a throttle switch that parallels resistor to switch to full speed past certain throttle position.
The Liberty RS (Legacy) is now over 20 years old. I doubt the pump is still available, and I don't have a part number. You should seek a powerful pump (eg 100+ watts - ie 8-10 amps) with a large motor, designed to work against a restriction. Some electric radiator pumps may be suitable, but I haven't tested them. My major point is that small, low power, cheap pumps won't cut it.
My English is Not do good, i Hope you Unterstand my message. I run a water to air System in my 2.0l 16v with gt30 Turbo because an air to air intercooler dont fit. I have a davis craig 25 water pump, an eBay water to air intercooler and an Oil Radiator for my water. So far it works Perfect but so far i dont have any temp. Sensors ewuiped. Now to my Thing: I belive this System dont Need an water Reservoire/Tank because the more water you have the longer it Takes for cooling/recover. If you have just a much As you get from the System the water Van ne cooled better and faster. I think the Most importabt thing is the Radiator... at least 3/4 Zoll fittings an Not so much Angles -> Flow is the key..... If you have a other opinion pls Write ist Here i Love ist to lern new Things.
Definitely need a reservoir or tank and the bigger the better, your intercooler/radiator without a reservoir is just going to add temperature to the coolant every pass and if you don't have a large reservoir it will heat that water up way above what you would want it to be quicker than if you had a small 250ml reservoir...once that coolant temp is hot then it's not only staying at that temperature but it's rising as every pass through the intercooler is just adding heat, not by 1 or 2 Celsius but by 5 at a time, so in 20 mins of running on a 36c day idea of not having a water reservoir has been proved to be a bad one as the cars ecu is engine timing so it doesn't cause other issues that the now overheating car is doing... run a 25L or bigger reservoir in the tank and you won't ever have a problem
Go figure. He tried two pumps designed for something other than his application, and they didn’t work. He tries a pump designed for the application, it works. Why the surprise?
Because 99 per cent of people do not select a pump specifically designed for water/air intercooling - almost no aftermarket pumps are designed for that role.
Great little video, thanks for sharing. Nice to see the practical experiment that you set up.
Thank you!
Regarding 1992 service manual the Subaru pump can handle 15l/min at 0,2 bar. That doesn't give a hint of why the subaru pump is so good in this aplication.
At 12V this pump draws 50W or 4.2A. In this range are many pumps with even double flow rate at the same pressure.
It seems that a good pump design without cavitation is the main key to a good flowing system if there is a bit more differential pressure.
For my next project I'll try the Pierburg CWA150 pump. This pump is made for higher differential pressure with a new designed impeller and it is PWM controllable.
This pump is rated for 25 l/min at 1.4 bar differential pressure, this should be plenty if it comes close to reaching the specifications and dosen't cavitate.
There is also a standalone controller called "tinyCWA" from Tecomotive available which provides pump and fan control, pump overrun, venting mode, warning lights etc.for this and similar Pierburg pumps.
But, a simple two stage pump with a relay and some 15W resistors should do the job too if you can find a pump which dosen't cavitate.
I'll compare the Subaru pump against the CWA150 as soon as possible. But unfortunately that won't be until next year.
Thanks for that thoughtful post. The 'tinyCWA' is very interesting. Let us know how you go with your testing.
Hey, it's been a year. Any data?
I'm a fan of Denso everything even spark plugs and this is a Denso pump fitted to a number of vehicles including Honda Odyssey and Toyota pickups . I tend to leave Bosch well alone after dismantling an alternator and finding the noisy bearings were unbranded . I believe Denso alternators are the only brand approved for kit plane building in the US .
Search “Prius 12v inverter cooler pump”. There is somebody on UA-cam who has run a fountain constantly from one for 3 seasons. That’s what I’ll be trying because Subaru pumps are like hens teeth in the UK it seems.
The Subaru part number of this pump is 45640AA000 or 45640AA010 but both are very rare. You can find similar denso pumps in Toyota Hiace (part number 16290-74010), Bentley (part number PF30955PB) etc. Search for older style Denso 064100 pumps with metal top.
Thank you!
@@JulianEdgar can you maybe pin this comment for people looking for this info, cheers.
I know you said not to go out and buy the Subaru pump but it seems perfect for the application and location I need
Great video. Curiously I bought a 1992 Legacy pump by chance, so pleased to hear you rate them well!
Nice one!
And I learned something new today. Thank you
Good!
Fascinating! Your videos on water/air intercooling make me want to try it sometime to have control over IAT's aside from just the ambient temperature. I'm not so sure I ever will though as I really like the simplicity of an air/air intercooler and I'm not one hundred percent sure of how to actually control the pump speed (how to PWM the pump) especially if I eventually was in a situation where I wasn't using a full standalone ecu.
In thinking about all this though, I wondered if the inverter coolant pump from a Prius (circa 04-09) would work well.
PWM control of pump speed is pretty easy, even without a standalone ECU. 12V motor speed controllers are available quite cheaply on eBay and use a potentiometer control input (ie a knob). Typically that involves a variable 5V signal, and this signal can be derived form a normal car sensor eg throttle position. Even easier is to just use some series resistors switched in and out - a technique I cover in this book - www.amazon.com/gp/product/1787113930 I haven't played with a Prius pump but I imagine it would be quite suitable.
On mine I run a pierburg cwa100 and it works pretty well.This year I'm going to run it via pwm.
From the data sheet yes, it looks like a good pump.
I think the main reason the pump cavitating is because theybhave to pull water from suction side through quite alot of restriction...
This can be mitigated by placing the pump to pull water directly from the reservoir tank and pushing water through all required flow..
Letting the pump do just pushing work flow should be the way to go..
Something like:
Reservoir > pump > water heat exchanger > boost heat exchanger > reservoir
Cavitation would only really happen if the system was not pressurised, for a hot water system where you have expansion as well glycol cavitation is less likely to occur. Also as you mention if the pump inlet has no flow restriction, you would mitigate any cavitation. Have you looked at Davies craig pumps?
Yes. When I first tested them, Davies Craig pumps were among the worst I ever saw - and their response to that testing, in a personal meeting, was abysmal. Hopefully they have got better since.
Also a pump that is more efficient is more likely to experience cavitation also as well as one that is less efficient. If a pump has very little re-circulation from exducer to inducer it is more prone to experiencing cavitation, but it is also more effective at creating higher pressure.
Mans out here doing god's work
Cobalt SS used that Bosch pump from the factory for the intercooler circuit. Tests have been performed on these pumps and they have different conclusions. Maybe your application had specific requirements and it did not meet them.
so the bosch pump worked good for you??
@@luisro7782 Yes. Look up lingenfelters study on these pumps
what exactly you refer as restrictions? the diferent devices that the water runs trough??
Yes each of the heat exchangers pose a restriction.
@@JulianEdgar so this also means that allthe sistem sould have the same diameter tubing, hoses and inlets and outlets right..??
That would normally be how you would do it, yes.
Do pumps come with any flow charts for restrictions? I am going from a mezier wp136 to a mezier wp336 55gpm free flow through 3/4" hose 15ft long.
Pumps often come with specs for flow change versus pressure. (Restrictions cause pressure.)
Trying to find this pump...........Not having much luck.....
where did you find that small water reservoir for the intercooler? i cannot find any water reservoir that is small like that, only the huge tanks and not sure how to plumb it into my W2A setup. I have the same intercooler you have in your test.
I made it from an aluminium fire extinguisher
subaru liberty legacy rs pump where can get it ? i search this car part didnt saw it have this pump ,can you help ?
Do you have any recommendations on a water pump for use in an air to water intercooler on a turbocharged performance car.
Probably an electric coolant assist pump from a car like a BMW or Mercedes. Lots of them have them.
@@JulianEdgar Thanks
have you tried Davies Craig 9040 pump? Probably one of the most expensive small pumps i've seen so I am curious about it. It's brushless, and I don't think most of the others are (???) I've got that Bosch pump in my system right now... looking for improvements.
No I haven't. With my experience of Davies Craig (now a few decades ago) I would never buy or fit anything from the company.
@@JulianEdgar What was you bad experience?
how do i fix the bosch pump making a howling noise
Julian, what would you say is the easiest way to control a pump on/off without an ecu that is capable ?
Resistor to give slow pump speed whenever car is running and then a throttle switch that parallels resistor to switch to full speed past certain throttle position.
@@JulianEdgar thanks for the input sir
Hi, any chance that you may have tested the aeroflow water pump?
No I haven't.
Any good pump for 24V system?
Where can I find that Subaru pump? Do you have a part number? Been researching pumps for my w2a sys
The Liberty RS (Legacy) is now over 20 years old. I doubt the pump is still available, and I don't have a part number. You should seek a powerful pump (eg 100+ watts - ie 8-10 amps) with a large motor, designed to work against a restriction. Some electric radiator pumps may be suitable, but I haven't tested them. My major point is that small, low power, cheap pumps won't cut it.
Subaru part number is 45640AA000 or 45640AA010
Hey any chance of a vin number for the liberty water pump I’m trying to find one
None available now I am afraid. Some people report good results with a Prius inverter pump, although I haven't tried one.
My English is Not do good, i Hope you Unterstand my message. I run a water to air System in my 2.0l 16v with gt30 Turbo because an air to air intercooler dont fit. I have a davis craig 25 water pump, an eBay water to air intercooler and an Oil Radiator for my water. So far it works Perfect but so far i dont have any temp. Sensors ewuiped. Now to my Thing: I belive this System dont Need an water Reservoire/Tank because the more water you have the longer it Takes for cooling/recover. If you have just a much As you get from the System the water Van ne cooled better and faster. I think the Most importabt thing is the Radiator... at least 3/4 Zoll fittings an Not so much Angles -> Flow is the key..... If you have a other opinion pls Write ist Here i Love ist to lern new Things.
Having a lot of water in the system is important in a road car because of its thermal mass. See ua-cam.com/video/HEuoSHmAQd0/v-deo.html
Definitely need a reservoir or tank and the bigger the better, your intercooler/radiator without a reservoir is just going to add temperature to the coolant every pass and if you don't have a large reservoir it will heat that water up way above what you would want it to be quicker than if you had a small 250ml reservoir...once that coolant temp is hot then it's not only staying at that temperature but it's rising as every pass through the intercooler is just adding heat, not by 1 or 2 Celsius but by 5 at a time, so in 20 mins of running on a 36c day idea of not having a water reservoir has been proved to be a bad one as the cars ecu is engine timing so it doesn't cause other issues that the now overheating car is doing...
run a 25L or bigger reservoir in the tank and you won't ever have a problem
Go figure. He tried two pumps designed for something other than his application, and they didn’t work. He tries a pump designed for the application, it works. Why the surprise?
Because 99 per cent of people do not select a pump specifically designed for water/air intercooling - almost no aftermarket pumps are designed for that role.
Looks like p/n 45640AA010 Denso