In the early days of charge coolers on the Mitsubishi GTO ,Nissan 350 Twin Turbo when first introduced, I first used the original air air intercoolers and jacketed the air fins added an air oil cooler as a radiator and used 12v marine inline pumps . Breaking new ground had to use what was available back then . I used surface mount bimetallic switches which are still available 30 years later that will switch when the air temp entering the throttle body rises to 30° C which made a simple connection to turn the pump on via a relay . The best result from swapping an air air intercooler to a charge cooler was the 1.6 Ford Escort 4 turbo . I built a direct replacement charge cooler that replaced the large plastic intercooler and the same system of oil cooler rad , marine pump and switching and with nothing else done the car made an extra 30 bhp at the wheels on the Sun rolling road . It works and is simple , reliable. requires no programming . Now most ECUs and Arduinos can be written to control the pump or use and driver from Megasquirt , Speeduino etc .
I'm looking at a brushless pump with controller for my mercedes m113k. The next step will be to increase the inlet and outlet sizes on the heat exchanger under the supercharger and figure out a way to control the pump the way you're describing.
The *average* voltage that the pump motor sees depends on the PWM duty cycle, so in effect, PWM control varies the voltage going to the pump. eg 50 per cent duty cycle = average voltage is half battery voltage.
@@JulianEdgar yes, it could be viewed as an average I guess, just that the motor with PWM with either see zero voltage or full voltage at a certain duty cycle. It'll never see 5 volts with a 12v supply. Another good video might be how convective heat transfer works. Describing the convective heat transfer between the boundary layer of air and the moving air etc.
Good points made here... I would recommend running two water temp sensors instead of running an IAT sensor to control the pump. This would give you the most control over the temperature of the intercooler, since the pump essentially has no direct control over the Intake temp(only an indirect control). They make dual water temp gauges for pump control, for this very reason
Great video. I've made a custom AWIC setup on my Outback. You're helping me remember the benefits as I'm considering reverting air/air. My temps are way too high. I'm thinking I maybe need a small reservoir higher than my AWIC so that the AWIC is full of water 100% of the time. Perhaps the water level hasn't saturated it. In which case I'm running a non-intercooled setup. I have a substantially modified stock ECU. I can program a few additional pins as I/O. My question for you is about how the ECU might be able to handle the proper power of PWM output to the pump. I at least know I can have the ECU programmed to turn a relay off and on for binary operation instead of PWM- And you've laid out a great set of reasons to do at least that! I hate that it's currently on full power with the key on. Thank you for sharing this info and your specific control logic!!! I really appreciate it!
I was hoping you may know of something that uses a heat probe as well as incorporating a multi speed option for ewp.Very much like a Davis craig thermo switch but with the differences mentioned. I want it to be a ‘set and forget’ system with the manual speed dial. My aim is to set the pump to operate at Ov@ 0-79° 4v@ 80-85° 12v@ 86°> I’m running a piggyback ECU SHOP ECU and not really in the position (if it works) to have it incorporated in the ECU.
@@REIDY006 Yes I've done such a module using an Arduino but I don't know of anything commercially available off the shelf. (My project was covered in Practical Electronics magazine in the UK.)
Julian Edgar would it be possible to use an automatic radiator (so it has the trans cooler built in) as the reservoir/cooler? It would make for a very compact unit. As far as I’m aware the viscous fan is the best form of cooling, wether or not it can effectively cool the water in the trans cooler as well as, or better then a seperate cooler, I don’t know..
@@REIDY006 All the radiators I am aware of that have an auto trans cooler built in use the *engine coolant* to cool the transmission oil, so it would be way too hot for a water/air intercooler radiator.
I have an air-cooled car, with which I am planning to Turbo-charge. The Turbo I have in mind is water cooled. I was hoping to use the same water circuit for the Intercooler as the Turbo. Do you think this is advisable/doable? Additionally, in this scenario, if one were to stop the water pump (perhaps via a air temperature switch) when air temperatures are under 30 degrees or so, this obviously would also stop water circulation to the Turbo. I'm not sure that's an issue, as some suggest the "thermo-siphon" effect is actually what will cool the Turbo, and is most important when the car is turned off after a drive. Thoughts? FYI, the car is a toy, so it will see a lot of back-roads driving and track-days, not a daily driver.
Ecellent info sir thank you! I would have to assume the same "constant temperature strategy" is the best plan when building an air to liquid charge air cooler for turbocharged diesel engines in pickup trucks?
It's a little different with a diesel truck because they spend much longer on high boost levels that a gasoline turbo car. Therefore the requirement for 'real time' heat exchange is higher than in a car. However, it depends a bit on climate - if you live someplace where there is a cold winter, then what is covered in this video still applies.
@@JulianEdgar Thank you sir. I get it, appreciate the answer and your videos! Another question is what is the calculation used to determine the size or amount of liquid needed to effectively cool for the size motor fuel and boost?
@@mrmtn37 There's no easy calculation - depends on efficiency of heat exchangers, efficiency of turbo or supercharger, engine airflow and boost. Apart from the effect of absorbing engine bay heat when stopped, more water typically = better. But it also makes the system heavier...
Hey J, I really enjoyed your videos, I’ve just got a few questions to ask you. I have a 1980 fiat x19 these cars are mid engine 1500 and it’s turbo charged using water to air is an ideal way to cool the car. Q1 which one of your books ideally shows the system of water air and apply it Q2 i’ve had the same problems in finding a proper pump for the system can you give me any more info model numbers or information on the Subaru liberty pump Q3 other than water do you recommend antifreeze to put in the systems even though I live in tropical Queensland. Q4 do you recommend putting a bleed valve somewhere in the system surely we have to bleed the system to get all out Thanks Jamie
(1) My book on the Honda Insight shows my latest water/air intercooling system - www.amazon.com/Honda-Insight-innovative-anatomy-modification/dp/1539335127 (2) I don't think that you'll easily find a Subaru pump - the car is now 25 years old. I don't have the pump's model number. I think when selecting a pump, look for one with a large motor that draws plenty of current - eg 10A. At least then the pump will have the power! (3) Yes I use coolant not just plain water. Using coolant actually reduces the heat carrying capacity of the system (but only by a little) but gives anti-freeze protection (not relevant for you) and provides corrosion resistance (important for all locations). (4) One of my other videos on water/air intercooling systems shows how I had to add two bleed screws to my current system to get all the air out. Those bleeds needed to be on the two heat exchangers.
Thanks Julian so much, having a mid engine car I’m finding hard it hard where to locate the pump, I possibly have found a Subaru pump. Drawing from the bottom of the inter cooler (cold side) runs under the car and then has to shoot up from under the car and into the barrel in the engine bay, should I have the pump closer to the front intercooler or the middle of the car or up near the engine bay OR do I need 2 pumps. Also I haven’t put a resiviour in the system is this really important. Jamie Mula
Hey, have you ever tested how long it takes to heat up the intercooler water when using a water to water ice box? I’m considering not using a cooler and fan, but using a tank in the back with a heat exchanger built inside. The intercooler fluid would circulate through but the tank would be full of ice water. Sorry if that doesn’t make sense, I can clarify if you need.
I am most interested in road cars, so I've never tested ice in the way you describe. Obviously would depend on engine power, boost, time on boost, size of ice container. No one could estimate accurately - do some testing.
Julian Edgar yeah that’s true. This will be a road car, but built not bought. But it won’t be driven often or for long periods I suspect. Thanks for responding!
What about direct injection engine? Both diesel and petrol. Would'nt you want as cold combustion air as possible? I would think the high pressure injectors would atomize the fuel just as well? I am planing on using a bilge pump turned upside down on the bottom of a cylindrical reservoir. It has the correct impeller design, gets cooled from the circulating water and I have made a swirl stopper in the reservoir. The bilge pump are cheap to source on ebay. So not to worried about running it on full all the time. What do you think about this setup?
I've never seen any research on intake air temp and fuel economy in a direct injection engine, so I cannot comment on this. All the bilge pumps I've ever looked at are (1) not designed for continuous operation, (2) not designed to circulate water through any kind of restriction. I think they're cheap for a reason!
@@JulianEdgar I have seen a couple of other people using a bilge pump lowered down into their reservoir. It will get a bit better cooling this way. I can't remember if they run it at 100% all the time or not, but the reason why they choose a bilge were there were no other easily available pump that could pump through the entire system as well with high enough flow. Might just be as they have the same impeller design as your subaru pump. Surely there would be some research on diesel performance with cold or hot intake air? I haven't read any of them myself, I have always just presumed that as cold air as possible will be as dense as possible, thereby have as much oxygen as possible. Diesel have a hard time auto igniting at too low temperatures, but after engine warm up I presume that wouldn't be to big of a problem. Then again, I only sees -30C at the lowest during winter, maybe -35C if I am unlucky, not -50C like they can have in Siberia and Alaska.
@Mr.Engineer. Cold air is desirable when you are running at high load as compression pre heats the air/fuel. Under part throttle conditions there is not much air to compress and there for it is barely heated, so warm air is more desirable. Warm air will also have a higher velocity better atomising fuel.
Hey Julian, I have a question regarding my build. It’s a 1998 Toyota MR2 I am running the TRD supercharged Aurion V6 engine the same setup as the lotus evora 400. I am trying the side mounted aftermarket intercooler and thermo fan setup for the MR2 Turbo application but I have turned the intercooler into a water heat exchanger and have ceramic coated both heat exchanger, intercooler and induction plumbing. I have also ported matched and polished the entire intake, supercharger, heads and exhaust including ceramic coated the pistons, heads and valves. Do you think this will have a good chance of being effective from the side intake in the engine bay? Cheers D
@@JulianEdgar The radiator will sit in the factory spot just behind the drivers door and be feed air through the side duct it will also have a fan and shroud to draw air through the radiator and assist air flow to the engine bay. The Intercooler will sit on the left side of the engine bay above the duct and the air cleaner will sit just under to draw the intake. I have a Craig Davis pump running 3/8 pipe and brass fittings.
@@damo7800 Hmm. The airflow through the intercooler radiator may be insufficient - it will all depend on the pressure in the engine bay (ie needs low pressure there). That's all achievable but it may need some aerodynamic mods to achieve a good pressure difference across the radiator - you don't want to have to rely on the fan. 3/8 lines seem very small - I use 3/4 inch hose. The only Davies Craig pump I've ever tested (a long time ago now) was absolute rubbish - I hope they're better now!
@@JulianEdgar Thanks Julian for you’re insight and knowledge I’ll look at some other options for low pressure ideas ect. My mistake the hose fittings are 3/4. I just watched your video on Subaru pump lol. I have just subscribed to your Chanel you have Great videos. Kind regards Damo
In the early days of charge coolers on the Mitsubishi GTO ,Nissan 350 Twin Turbo when first introduced, I first used the original air air intercoolers and jacketed the air fins added an air oil cooler as a radiator and used 12v marine inline pumps . Breaking new ground had to use what was available back then . I used surface mount bimetallic switches which are still available 30 years later that will switch when the air temp entering the throttle body rises to 30° C which made a simple connection to turn the pump on via a relay . The best result from swapping an air air intercooler to a charge cooler was the 1.6 Ford Escort 4 turbo . I built a direct replacement charge cooler that replaced the large plastic intercooler and the same system of oil cooler rad , marine pump and switching and with nothing else done the car made an extra 30 bhp at the wheels on the Sun rolling road . It works and is simple , reliable. requires no programming .
Now most ECUs and Arduinos can be written to control the pump or use and driver from Megasquirt , Speeduino etc .
I'm looking at a brushless pump with controller for my mercedes m113k. The next step will be to increase the inlet and outlet sizes on the heat exchanger under the supercharger and figure out a way to control the pump the way you're describing.
PWM uses full voltage all the time and varies the pulse duration to control the motor speed. Other than that, great vid!
The *average* voltage that the pump motor sees depends on the PWM duty cycle, so in effect, PWM control varies the voltage going to the pump. eg 50 per cent duty cycle = average voltage is half battery voltage.
@@JulianEdgar yes, it could be viewed as an average I guess, just that the motor with PWM with either see zero voltage or full voltage at a certain duty cycle. It'll never see 5 volts with a 12v supply.
Another good video might be how convective heat transfer works. Describing the convective heat transfer between the boundary layer of air and the moving air etc.
Good points made here... I would recommend running two water temp sensors instead of running an IAT sensor to control the pump. This would give you the most control over the temperature of the intercooler, since the pump essentially has no direct control over the Intake temp(only an indirect control). They make dual water temp gauges for pump control, for this very reason
IAT is the variable we're trying to control, not intercooler water temp. Therefore, we measure IAT.
Hey J
I just purchased your book. I thought you were located in Oz I didn’t realise you were from the states. All good looking fwd to the book👍
Not sure how you got to that conclusion. I live in Australia.
Great video. I've made a custom AWIC setup on my Outback. You're helping me remember the benefits as I'm considering reverting air/air. My temps are way too high. I'm thinking I maybe need a small reservoir higher than my AWIC so that the AWIC is full of water 100% of the time. Perhaps the water level hasn't saturated it. In which case I'm running a non-intercooled setup.
I have a substantially modified stock ECU. I can program a few additional pins as I/O. My question for you is about how the ECU might be able to handle the proper power of PWM output to the pump. I at least know I can have the ECU programmed to turn a relay off and on for binary operation instead of PWM- And you've laid out a great set of reasons to do at least that! I hate that it's currently on full power with the key on. Thank you for sharing this info and your specific control logic!!! I really appreciate it!
Paid an overseas hacker to live-hack my ECU to give it all aftermarket performance features that any ECU would want. And still passes emissions :-)
Just use a Solid State Relay to operate the pump, with the ECU controlling the SSR (low current).
Another great video! Would you have any suggestions on other electronics to control pump speed for those not using aftermarket ECU’s?
A 12V DC motor speed controller from eBay
I was hoping you may know of something that uses a heat probe as well as incorporating a multi speed option for ewp.Very much like a Davis craig thermo switch but with the differences mentioned. I want it to be a ‘set and forget’ system with the manual speed dial.
My aim is to set the pump to operate at Ov@ 0-79° 4v@ 80-85° 12v@ 86°>
I’m running a piggyback ECU SHOP ECU and not really in the position (if it works) to have it incorporated in the ECU.
@@REIDY006 Yes I've done such a module using an Arduino but I don't know of anything commercially available off the shelf. (My project was covered in Practical Electronics magazine in the UK.)
Julian Edgar would it be possible to use an automatic radiator (so it has the trans cooler built in) as the reservoir/cooler?
It would make for a very compact unit.
As far as I’m aware the viscous fan is the best form of cooling, wether or not it can effectively cool the water in the trans cooler as well as, or better then a seperate cooler, I don’t know..
@@REIDY006 All the radiators I am aware of that have an auto trans cooler built in use the *engine coolant* to cool the transmission oil, so it would be way too hot for a water/air intercooler radiator.
I have an air-cooled car, with which I am planning to Turbo-charge. The Turbo I have in mind is water cooled. I was hoping to use the same water circuit for the Intercooler as the Turbo. Do you think this is advisable/doable? Additionally, in this scenario, if one were to stop the water pump (perhaps via a air temperature switch) when air temperatures are under 30 degrees or so, this obviously would also stop water circulation to the Turbo. I'm not sure that's an issue, as some suggest the "thermo-siphon" effect is actually what will cool the Turbo, and is most important when the car is turned off after a drive. Thoughts? FYI, the car is a toy, so it will see a lot of back-roads driving and track-days, not a daily driver.
Yes you could use the same circuit. But I'd keep the pump running for 10 min or so after switch off, irrespective of intake air temp.
Excellent info!
Thanks for watching!
Ecellent info sir thank you!
I would have to assume the same "constant temperature strategy" is the best plan when building an air to liquid charge air cooler for turbocharged diesel engines in pickup trucks?
It's a little different with a diesel truck because they spend much longer on high boost levels that a gasoline turbo car. Therefore the requirement for 'real time' heat exchange is higher than in a car. However, it depends a bit on climate - if you live someplace where there is a cold winter, then what is covered in this video still applies.
@@JulianEdgar
Thank you sir. I get it, appreciate the answer and your videos!
Another question is what is the calculation used to determine the size or amount of liquid needed to effectively cool for the size motor fuel and boost?
@@mrmtn37 There's no easy calculation - depends on efficiency of heat exchangers, efficiency of turbo or supercharger, engine airflow and boost. Apart from the effect of absorbing engine bay heat when stopped, more water typically = better. But it also makes the system heavier...
Hey J,
I really enjoyed your videos, I’ve just got a few questions to ask you.
I have a 1980 fiat x19 these cars are mid engine 1500 and it’s turbo charged using water to air is an ideal way to cool the car.
Q1 which one of your books ideally shows the system of water air and apply it
Q2 i’ve had the same problems in finding a proper pump for the system can you give me any more info model numbers or information on the Subaru liberty pump
Q3 other than water do you recommend antifreeze to put in the systems even though I live in tropical Queensland.
Q4 do you recommend putting a bleed valve somewhere in the system surely we have to bleed the system to get all out
Thanks
Jamie
(1) My book on the Honda Insight shows my latest water/air intercooling system - www.amazon.com/Honda-Insight-innovative-anatomy-modification/dp/1539335127 (2) I don't think that you'll easily find a Subaru pump - the car is now 25 years old. I don't have the pump's model number. I think when selecting a pump, look for one with a large motor that draws plenty of current - eg 10A. At least then the pump will have the power! (3) Yes I use coolant not just plain water. Using coolant actually reduces the heat carrying capacity of the system (but only by a little) but gives anti-freeze protection (not relevant for you) and provides corrosion resistance (important for all locations). (4) One of my other videos on water/air intercooling systems shows how I had to add two bleed screws to my current system to get all the air out. Those bleeds needed to be on the two heat exchangers.
Thanks Julian so much, having a mid engine car I’m finding hard it hard where to locate the pump, I possibly have found a Subaru pump. Drawing from the bottom of the inter cooler (cold side) runs under the car and then has to shoot up from under the car and into the barrel in the engine bay, should I have the pump closer to the front intercooler or the middle of the car or up near the engine bay OR do I need 2 pumps. Also I haven’t put a resiviour in the system is this really important. Jamie Mula
Hey, have you ever tested how long it takes to heat up the intercooler water when using a water to water ice box?
I’m considering not using a cooler and fan, but using a tank in the back with a heat exchanger built inside. The intercooler fluid would circulate through but the tank would be full of ice water.
Sorry if that doesn’t make sense, I can clarify if you need.
I am most interested in road cars, so I've never tested ice in the way you describe. Obviously would depend on engine power, boost, time on boost, size of ice container. No one could estimate accurately - do some testing.
Julian Edgar yeah that’s true. This will be a road car, but built not bought. But it won’t be driven often or for long periods I suspect.
Thanks for responding!
What about direct injection engine? Both diesel and petrol. Would'nt you want as cold combustion air as possible? I would think the high pressure injectors would atomize the fuel just as well?
I am planing on using a bilge pump turned upside down on the bottom of a cylindrical reservoir. It has the correct impeller design, gets cooled from the circulating water and I have made a swirl stopper in the reservoir. The bilge pump are cheap to source on ebay. So not to worried about running it on full all the time. What do you think about this setup?
I've never seen any research on intake air temp and fuel economy in a direct injection engine, so I cannot comment on this. All the bilge pumps I've ever looked at are (1) not designed for continuous operation, (2) not designed to circulate water through any kind of restriction. I think they're cheap for a reason!
@@JulianEdgar I have seen a couple of other people using a bilge pump lowered down into their reservoir. It will get a bit better cooling this way. I can't remember if they run it at 100% all the time or not, but the reason why they choose a bilge were there were no other easily available pump that could pump through the entire system as well with high enough flow. Might just be as they have the same impeller design as your subaru pump.
Surely there would be some research on diesel performance with cold or hot intake air? I haven't read any of them myself, I have always just presumed that as cold air as possible will be as dense as possible, thereby have as much oxygen as possible. Diesel have a hard time auto igniting at too low temperatures, but after engine warm up I presume that wouldn't be to big of a problem. Then again, I only sees -30C at the lowest during winter, maybe -35C if I am unlucky, not -50C like they can have in Siberia and Alaska.
@Mr.Engineer. Cold air is desirable when you are running at high load as compression pre heats the air/fuel. Under part throttle conditions there is not much air to compress and there for it is barely heated, so warm air is more desirable. Warm air will also have a higher velocity better atomising fuel.
Hey Julian, I have a question regarding my build. It’s a 1998 Toyota MR2 I am running the TRD supercharged Aurion V6 engine the same setup as the lotus evora 400. I am trying the side mounted aftermarket intercooler and thermo fan setup for the MR2 Turbo application but I have turned the intercooler into a water heat exchanger and have ceramic coated both heat exchanger, intercooler and induction plumbing. I have also ported matched and polished the entire intake, supercharger, heads and exhaust including ceramic coated the pistons, heads and valves. Do you think this will have a good chance of being effective from the side intake in the engine bay? Cheers D
Where is the heat exchanger (radiator) for the intercooler? And what pump and hose size are you using?
@@JulianEdgar The radiator will sit in the factory spot just behind the drivers door and be feed air through the side duct it will also have a fan and shroud to draw air through the radiator and assist air flow to the engine bay. The Intercooler will sit on the left side of the engine bay above the duct and the air cleaner will sit just under to draw the intake. I have a Craig Davis pump running 3/8 pipe and brass fittings.
@@damo7800 Hmm. The airflow through the intercooler radiator may be insufficient - it will all depend on the pressure in the engine bay (ie needs low pressure there). That's all achievable but it may need some aerodynamic mods to achieve a good pressure difference across the radiator - you don't want to have to rely on the fan. 3/8 lines seem very small - I use 3/4 inch hose. The only Davies Craig pump I've ever tested (a long time ago now) was absolute rubbish - I hope they're better now!
@@JulianEdgar Thanks Julian for you’re insight and knowledge I’ll look at some other options for low pressure ideas ect. My mistake the hose fittings are 3/4. I just watched your video on Subaru pump lol. I have just subscribed to your Chanel you have Great videos. Kind regards Damo
great videos. ur mic was acting up this vid.
just let it full blast for maximum cooling
On a road car, no. Did you watch the video?
You need more exposure on youtube. You need to get some time on mighty car mods, street machine etc.