My friend, composer John Aulich, has offered some of his own elaborations: "Some strategies that could complement your own, offered here just for anyone watching this video to suss it out: - You can often 'collapse' nested tuplets into one (e.g. triplets inside triplets are 9:8 tuplets, and any un-nested bits can be converted by dividing durations by 2 and multiplying by 3). - In case tuplets start and end in places completely antithetical to the pulse implied by the time signature, you can treat the metronome beats as any arbitrary number of subdivisions. If everybody is playing tuplets, and there's no referent, I've found this is the easiest way to feel reassured you're in time. - Act like you know what you're doing if you get lost - perception is everything - one last tip: In the midst of playing, if a complex/nested tuplet 'feels' like another simpler one, it probably actually is. I found this especially with compounds like 15:12 (to pick an obvious one)..just by playing you intuitively discover it's just a series of much less intimidating tied 5:4s or 3:2s."
I was at rehearsals for Frank's instrumental show at the Hollywood Bowl, where the Mothers band members did not perform with the Los Angeles Philharmonic musicians Frank had hired. The sheet music proved a challenge to some of these World Class musicians, with SO MANY NOTES on a page! At one point, the bassoonist just threw up his hands, exasperated by Frank stopping repeatedly and pointing at him. Frank could hear his errors in the midst of a particularly complex section...he had an amazing set of ears...and refused to continue til the guy got it right. Tensions were high that day, in that crowded space, in an empty commercial spot more suited for a small shoe store. Frank was still using crutches attached to his arms, hampering his baton action. It was a difficult rehearsal that day. They had only a week more to get it right, before the show. It was BRILLIANT, of course, and Frank strolled onstage without his crutches. It's wonderful to see this video. That bassoonist could've used your help.
Thank you very much for sharing this story - I would have loved to have been able to sit in one of those rehearsals. Frank's orchestral music was beautiful even in those early obscure films he scored, and I tend to think of a lot of the most advanced facets of his orchestral writing as having developed a little later into the '70s, but when you see some of the scores from 200 Motels and even the '72 Grand Wazoo material, it's actually quite surprising how fully formed his identity as a composer was even at that relatively early stage (the rhythmic writing especially - I sometimes wonder where his use of tuplets comes from, because it's a little bit different to the sorts of figures you find in Stravinsky. A very distinct and developed voice). It must have been challenging to deal with that kind of material as a rank-and-file musician back then.
This is such a great way of practicing this stuff. Having each rhythmic pulse panned to each ear while the melody remains stereo is brilliant. It really gives the three part structure of the nested tuplets a sense of division or counterpoint...something like that. How hilarious is it that UA-cam gives the red underscoring (meaning misspell) to tuplet ! I love your analyses and I look forward to more of them.
I haven't yet released a recording, but get in touch with me via email (samuelrhoward@outlook.com) if you're interested in the score of the piano reduction. I'm recording it with new personnel (the recording featured in the video is old and not an ideal performance), which will be uploaded to Bandcamp (but probably not for a few months at least). The middle-section of a different piece I recorded last year (tinyurl.com/y3pa4wbg) shares some similar melodic characteristics, although there aren't any nested tuplets in that particular piece - you might enjoy that in the meantime if you haven't already heard it, though.
Hello, #Samuel. I'm composer from Colombia. I've a qstn about the use of tuplet. Firstable, What program have you used to write your music, finale or another relationated? If it's Finale 2014 or 26, I want to make an inquiry. I'm currently using principles of numerical-rhythmic proportion, presented at different structural levels of complex durations for composing, like Ferneyhough have used. As I have said, I want to apply these principles, making subdivision of values, at different levels of structuring and complexity of the same rhythmic figure(s). My qstn focuses on the digitized notation to some musical situations, around the use of Tuplet Definition Tool, selecting the option NUMBER (X: Y or X : Yq or Xq: Yq). I want to apply any type of desired proportion (5: 6; @; @, etc.), taking the value of x-duration (quarter notes, eighth notes, etc.) in the y-space (quarter notes, eighth notes, etc.) will give me any flexible rhythmic form. So far, finale allows me to make any type of configuration desired in the metric, applied to a layer. What is inconvenient for me and I would like to know is how to solve it when I want to apply a new ratio to a figure or group of rhythmic figures that have already been proportionated (example: 7:5 and taking some part and subdividing again in 6:4). I tried, in principle, to apply the ratio 7:5 to a layer 1 (divided in three halfdotted notes) and later apply the new subdivision of 6:4 (to one or two of the half dotted notes to a layer 2), but unfortunately the result is not as expected. Grettings, Andrés;
Hello Andrés, thanks for your message. I use Finale 2011 - a bit older than 2014, but it should work on the same principle. Basically, if you want to embed a 6:4 tuplet within a 7:5 tuplet, you have to define the 6:4 tuplet first. So you would write out the figure the same way as you would always have to before using the tuplets tool, but you would then define the innermost 6:4 tuplet before you defined the outermost 7:5 tuplet. To use a very simple example, if I want a quarter-note triplet to have a 16th note quintuplet embedded within its last beat, I would: -write the first 2 quarter-notes -write in five 16th notes -use the tuplet tool to turn the 16ths into a 5:4 quintuplet -click on the first quarter note of the triplet with the tuplet tool to create the overarching quarter-note triplet In other words, you have to work outwards from the lowest level of subdivision, as opposed to working inwards from the highest level of division. Hope I've understood your question correctly. By the way, there's a good Finale support group on Facebook with a very helpful and knowledgeable community, in case you ever need it: facebook.com/groups/finalepower/
0:43. By removing the overarching tuplet aren't you missing the whole point ? If the bar has an overall 3 beats feel, breaking it into 4 beats i fundamentally wrong. If you build from there it's all wrong
I’m not sure I see what you mean - the proportions between the notes remain the same, so by removing the overarching tuplet, you’re just simplifying it before putting it back into context. Yeah, you do still have to figure out how to fit the phrase back into its original space, but this is just a way of making sure you’ve got the phrasing correct more locally before moving onto actually playing the tuplet. Obviously you can skip this if you’re confident you aren’t going to mis-read the original tuplet of course, but doing this just means you have fewer points of reference to filter the phrase through on first reading.
![How to play triplets in septuplets - Nested Tuplets [Drum Lesson]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/G9eI3ZB8fpQ/mqdefault.jpg)
My friend, composer John Aulich, has offered some of his own elaborations:
"Some strategies that could complement your own, offered here just for anyone watching this video to suss it out:
- You can often 'collapse' nested tuplets into one (e.g. triplets inside triplets are 9:8 tuplets, and any un-nested bits can be converted by dividing durations by 2 and multiplying by 3).
- In case tuplets start and end in places completely antithetical to the pulse implied by the time signature, you can treat the metronome beats as any arbitrary number of subdivisions. If everybody is playing tuplets, and there's no referent, I've found this is the easiest way to feel reassured you're in time.
- Act like you know what you're doing if you get lost - perception is everything
- one last tip: In the midst of playing, if a complex/nested tuplet 'feels' like another simpler one, it probably actually is. I found this especially with compounds like 15:12 (to pick an obvious one)..just by playing you intuitively discover it's just a series of much less intimidating tied 5:4s or 3:2s."
I was at rehearsals for Frank's instrumental show at the Hollywood Bowl, where the Mothers band members did not perform with the Los Angeles Philharmonic musicians Frank had hired. The sheet music proved a challenge to some of these World Class musicians, with SO MANY NOTES on a page! At one point, the bassoonist just threw up his hands, exasperated by Frank stopping repeatedly and pointing at him. Frank could hear his errors in the midst of a particularly complex section...he had an amazing set of ears...and refused to continue til the guy got it right. Tensions were high that day, in that crowded space, in an empty commercial spot more suited for a small shoe store. Frank was still using crutches attached to his arms, hampering his baton action. It was a difficult rehearsal that day. They had only a week more to get it right, before the show. It was BRILLIANT, of course, and Frank strolled onstage without his crutches.
It's wonderful to see this video. That bassoonist could've used your help.
Thank you very much for sharing this story - I would have loved to have been able to sit in one of those rehearsals. Frank's orchestral music was beautiful even in those early obscure films he scored, and I tend to think of a lot of the most advanced facets of his orchestral writing as having developed a little later into the '70s, but when you see some of the scores from 200 Motels and even the '72 Grand Wazoo material, it's actually quite surprising how fully formed his identity as a composer was even at that relatively early stage (the rhythmic writing especially - I sometimes wonder where his use of tuplets comes from, because it's a little bit different to the sorts of figures you find in Stravinsky. A very distinct and developed voice). It must have been challenging to deal with that kind of material as a rank-and-file musician back then.
This is such a great way of practicing this stuff. Having each rhythmic pulse panned to each ear while the melody remains stereo is brilliant. It really gives the three part structure of the nested tuplets a sense of division or counterpoint...something like that. How hilarious is it that UA-cam gives the red underscoring (meaning misspell) to tuplet ! I love your analyses and I look forward to more of them.
Glad it was useful, thanks a lot for the feedback! I look forward to making more of them too.
Thanks for making this!
Thanks for watching it!
broooo u on some crazy stuff o'er here ! thanks for uploading this!
Great video. Thanks 🙏
Thank you very much!
Dude, you are killing!
Thanks!
Very interesting
Is Mr. g's variations available anywhere?
I haven't yet released a recording, but get in touch with me via email (samuelrhoward@outlook.com) if you're interested in the score of the piano reduction.
I'm recording it with new personnel (the recording featured in the video is old and not an ideal performance), which will be uploaded to Bandcamp (but probably not for a few months at least). The middle-section of a different piece I recorded last year (tinyurl.com/y3pa4wbg) shares some similar melodic characteristics, although there aren't any nested tuplets in that particular piece - you might enjoy that in the meantime if you haven't already heard it, though.
Great video! Keep it greasy!
Cheers, Christian - likewise!
@@SamuelRHoward Always! :)
Hello, #Samuel. I'm composer from Colombia. I've a qstn about the use of tuplet. Firstable, What program have you used to write your music, finale or another relationated? If it's Finale 2014 or 26, I want to make an inquiry.
I'm currently using principles of numerical-rhythmic proportion,
presented at different structural levels of complex durations for
composing, like Ferneyhough have used. As I have said, I want to apply these principles, making
subdivision of values, at different levels of structuring and complexity
of the same rhythmic figure(s). My qstn focuses on the digitized
notation to some musical situations, around the use of Tuplet Definition
Tool, selecting the option NUMBER (X: Y or X : Yq or Xq: Yq).
I want to apply any type of desired proportion (5: 6; @; @, etc.), taking
the value of x-duration (quarter notes, eighth notes, etc.) in the
y-space (quarter notes, eighth notes, etc.) will give me any flexible
rhythmic form. So far, finale allows me to make any type of
configuration desired in the metric, applied to a layer.
What is inconvenient for me and I would like to know is how to solve it when I
want to apply a new ratio to a figure or group of rhythmic figures that
have already been proportionated (example: 7:5 and taking some part and
subdividing again in 6:4). I tried, in principle, to apply the ratio 7:5
to a layer 1 (divided in three halfdotted notes) and later apply the
new subdivision of 6:4 (to one or two of the half dotted notes to a
layer 2), but unfortunately the result is not as expected.
Grettings,
Andrés;
Hello Andrés, thanks for your message.
I use Finale 2011 - a bit older than 2014, but it should work on the same principle.
Basically, if you want to embed a 6:4 tuplet within a 7:5 tuplet, you have to define the 6:4 tuplet first. So you would write out the figure the same way as you would always have to before using the tuplets tool, but you would then define the innermost 6:4 tuplet before you defined the outermost 7:5 tuplet.
To use a very simple example, if I want a quarter-note triplet to have a 16th note quintuplet embedded within its last beat, I would:
-write the first 2 quarter-notes
-write in five 16th notes
-use the tuplet tool to turn the 16ths into a 5:4 quintuplet
-click on the first quarter note of the triplet with the tuplet tool to create the overarching quarter-note triplet
In other words, you have to work outwards from the lowest level of subdivision, as opposed to working inwards from the highest level of division.
Hope I've understood your question correctly. By the way, there's a good Finale support group on Facebook with a very helpful and knowledgeable community, in case you ever need it: facebook.com/groups/finalepower/
@@SamuelRHoward Thank you very much for your response.
No problem, hope it helps.
0:43. By removing the overarching tuplet aren't you missing the whole point ?
If the bar has an overall 3 beats feel, breaking it into 4 beats i fundamentally wrong. If you build from there it's all wrong
I’m not sure I see what you mean - the proportions between the notes remain the same, so by removing the overarching tuplet, you’re just simplifying it before putting it back into context. Yeah, you do still have to figure out how to fit the phrase back into its original space, but this is just a way of making sure you’ve got the phrasing correct more locally before moving onto actually playing the tuplet.
Obviously you can skip this if you’re confident you aren’t going to mis-read the original tuplet of course, but doing this just means you have fewer points of reference to filter the phrase through on first reading.
ok...what??? lol