Dragon Ball Dissection: Dragon Ball Minus
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- Опубліковано 7 сер 2024
- Our look at Bardock comes to a close with this bonus chapter to Jaco the Galactic Patrolman. Hey, it may unravel all of Goku's thematic significance and completely contradict a superior story, but at least we get to meet Goku's mom! That's all that matters, right? Welcome to a review far longer than the material it's covering.
- Розваги
I'm really glad the new Broli movie has sparked new interest in this video. However, many of you are saying the same thing, along the lines of, "The movie has made this canon *now*," emphasis on "now" being my own, but the word is almost always attached. You guys realize that Toriyama wrote Dragon Ball Minus, right? Quite frankly, if you believe in a "canon" the movie has changed absolutely nothing. Dragon Ball Minus came directly from Toriyama's pen in his own Dragon Ball work. You can't get more "canon" than that. It retconned the Bardock special five years ago.
The most you might be able to say is that you held out hope that, while it applied to the manga continuity, maybe it didn't hold for the animated continuity. Granted, modern Dragon Ball, with three different versions of some material, has made the distinction of what material counts in what continuity/ies so difficult to parse that I just throw up my hands at this point.
Bottom line: I continue to be perplexed at how a movie passes the "canon" threshold while a story written and drawn entirely by Toriyama himself does not.
I think those ppl thought since Jaco was a spin-off it didn’t count? I mean, Jaco takes place in the DB series, but it’s not “a DB story”. Still, ur right, I just think that’s what ppl’s logic was.
Personally I don't like the New Broly Movie at all and that's even before I include the Minus addition.
Personally, I see the sequence from the movie being more canon, mainly for just making that point that Goku's mom makes that it's not usual for a Saiyan to care about his kid, and Bardock's simple response about trying to save something for once... it just feels closer to who Bardock has always been from his first appearance than this manga's take. Again, my own thought on it.
Sad that this thing gets more Attention than the first 16 and Half Volumes Haaa! because big Muscle Dude!
It's not that DragonBall Minus was never canon, it was just never really dwelled upon and could generally be ignored because of how bad it is. The DBS Broly movie forces it down our throats as the true gospel surrounding Goku's origin by the one and only Toriyama. So it feels more cannon now.
It's called dragon ball minus because it does nothing but subtract from the mythos
Makura oof
Well said. That was Toriyama's play all along.
Burn
Toriyama hasn’t really cared since Og dragon ball ended, but hey money
@@bryanc7094
I'd say since the Cell Saga. Dragon Ball should've ended right there.
I can feel the rage coming off you even before the video even starts.
That pause at "A brilliant scientist" had me rolling.
I was dead on the floor xD
Rudoku1 I don't get it?
+kevin pillar: There is an infamous line from the Ocean dub where Vegeta calls Bardock "an average fighter, but a brilliant scientist"
It all comes full circle. Toriyama hated how Goku was painted as a Superman clone. So he made Goku a Superman clone. The logic of Toriyama everyone.
@Rudoku1
I don't blame Mistare in that regard. When I read Minus, Bardock felt like Jor-El 0.5. The only thing missing was him to be a scientist.
20:02- Freeza: Any last words?
Bardock: they can be a great people if they wish to be.
Freeza: What was that?
Bardock: Nothing Brainiac.
Freeza: What? What?!
In Bardock the Father of Goku, there’s a great scene where Frieza is discussing with Zarbon and Dadoria, the potential threat the Saiyans pose if left unchecked. Frieza says, something akin to “only a fool would allow that to happen”. That one line explained his entire motivation for destroying planet Vegeta and why he feared the Saiyans in the first place. All this extra back story and retconning ruins something that was done perfectly the first time.
It's an absolutely great scene. Dodoria mocks the idea that Saiyans are anything to worry about and then Zarbon immediately points out how suicidal it would be challenge Saiyans like Vegeta under the light of a full moon. Which prompts Freeza to weigh in that only a fool would welcome such a battle. So much gets communicated in an exchange that lasts maybe a minute. Sublty is something shonen anime struggle with but that scene just knocks it out of the park.
@@Humorless_Wokescold saiyans really are just totally overpowered and broken. Imagine if vegeta had realized he could just have someone beat the shit out of him, spend a week in the healing goo, come out, do it again, and again, then transform into a giant sentient gorilla and kill frieza. It took him a year just to get to ascended super saiyan or whatever, he should have just abused zenkai boosts.
I always preferred that to the idea that Freeza was afraid of Super Saiyans. Freeza never struck me as the type to care about legends, especially from those so beneath him.
While I really like that scene in the original Bardock special I think it would have been better if Freeza was the one to bring up the danger of saiyans, not Zarbon. It would give the implication that Freeza has been sitting on this and show his insecurities of their combined strength. Zarbon could bring up how well they’re doing, Dodoria could then downplay their victories, and Freeza greatly extrapolates them. It gives Freeza more authority in the scene and gives him that power madness and fear of losing it that the best of one dimensional tyrants have
In the Bardock Special Freeza had more of a reason to plan to kill the Saiyans based on what he already know. Even though thats the dub dialogue, it makes more sense that the Saiyans surviving more missions than Freeza's men and taking on harder challenges than them would show that they were starting to show potential that Bardock thought would impress Freeza. Then Freeza thinks it would be a bad idea if they all went Oozaru and turned on him. Again logical. Him just hearing the Saiyans just chatter about "Super Saiyan" or thrown in "SuperSaiyan God" with no reason at all for them to even bring it up, it doesn't make sense why Freeza himself would be like "oh they're talking about that today? I should kill them all." Minus really does make the basics of the special worse, and adding in Gine who offers nothing to the story, especially just being nice and passive. Its one of those reasons why we didn't need to know who Goku's mother was.
The best thing to come out of Dragon Ball Minus is this video. So in a weird way. Thanks Dragon Ball Minus. Thanks Lance.
Thank you! Miss you, buddy. Hope you're doing well. ^_^
That's like saying 2 Girls 1 Cup is worth existing because people's reaction is funny
MistareFusion you complain about everything you need to shut that mouth for a while (not trying to be mean)
It's sad that the best thing about something is riffting material. It's also sad that you're absolutely right.
MistareFusion and now its gonna be animated 😑
I really wish most Dragon Ball fans could appreciate videos like this. GREAT JOB!
Thank you!
just execpt the fact minus is canon
@@princehenry8155 That doesn't make it good.
@@spartanq7781 well to bad deal with it or don't watch the show simple
@@princehenry8155 I like the series just not Minus. So I won't read it duh.
Hey, Lance. There actually is a plot hole in Minus. According to it's logic, how did Raditz know about Kakarotto being sent to Earth? Remember, Raditz went to Earth because he was under the impression that his brother was sent there on a mission to conquer it and wanted to recruit him for another job. With the Bardock Special in mind, this is consistent as it was no secret that Kakarotto was being sent to Earth the day after he was born, and it was clearly for a mission to conquer it as opposed to saving him from Freeza. Freeza decided to destroy Planet Vegeta on a whim and Kakarotto was lucky he was already sent away before that happened. With Minus in mind, it makes no sense. Bardock and Gine covertly sent Kakarotto away in order to save him from Freeza who has ordered every Saiyan to return to Planet Vegeta that way he could destroy it and kill them all, but Vegeta and Raditz ignore the order. They don't use any scouters so Freeza doesn't overhear their plan, but Gine says she'll let Raditz know about his little brother being sent to Earth. Not only can they not be true at the same time, they make no sense separately either. If they never told Raditz about sending Kakarotto to Earth, how did he learn about it? Bardock and Gine sending Kakarotto to Earth was a clandestine operation. It was done unbeknownst to anyone else, and they didn't use scouters so no one could overhear anything about it, especially Freeza. So, how could Raditz have ever learned his brother was sent to Earth if that's the case? If they did (somehow) tell Raditz about it, why did he think his brother was sent to Earth to destroy it? Does that mean they told him they sent Kakarotto to Earth, but didn't give him any context on why they did it? You'd think they'd get that point across so there'd be no misunderstanding and Raditz would know his brother was sent there to keep him safe, but apparently not since Raditz didn't know about that part and thought Kakarotto was on a mission. But these examples cannot be true either separately or together as it's inconsistent with how Goku's encounter with Raditz was portrayed in the original series. So, the apologists who defend Minus because there technically isn't a plot hole are wrong.
It also doesn't make sense that Raditz and Vegeta are on the same team as kids, when Vegeta is an upperclass and Raditz is low class. Even power level aside, why would Vegeta be paired up with some random low class as opposed to other elite children?
@@GeteMachine In a Tori interview, he says that "Raditz was an upper-level warrior (as designated by his BP from birth) and assigned to the same group as Nappa as a proper combatant. Before long Vegeta was added to that group, too."
As for the plot hole, Tori/Toei probably saw that too as in Broly they added kid Raditz (moved to after the genocide instead of before it) say he "thinks his mom said she sent Kakarot off the planet in a pod" but doesn't care enough to think more about it. Not a perfect fix to a problem that didn't need to be created, but it's something lmao
@@GeteMachine
I know, right?
@@GeteMachine That’s a criticism of ‘80s era Toriyama’s writing, not currently. He was well known for retcons back in the day.
"And that is not an invitation to bring this up again in a later Dragon Ball work."
Haha...
Minus reduces the impact the elder Gohan had on the story. Goku would have grown up a violent psychopath like the rest of the Saiyans, but Gohan's love averted that. However it turns out his mom was caring anyways, meaning he'd have grown up less of a psycho. Plus, we see that Raditz was a psycho anyways. So he didn't listen to his mom or something?
@JoGeJo it was kinda both
I mean it's not like Vegeta Raidtz Bardock and Nappa aren't Crazy and killing machines
Yeah Gine can be the only good Saiyan out there for now (even tho we see She Just cares About her family) but maybe kakaroth could have grown like the others
It wasn't just Granpa gohans love, it was Goku getting dropped on his head
@@Mepphy99 or maybe it was just bad writing.
this is a late reply but. if you read Jaco the Galatic patrolman where DB minus is a part of. it ends on a page with Goku and grandpa Gohan before Goku hit his head. Grandpa Gohan actualy says that Goku attacked him first, and has no table manners.
so yeah Goku as a small kid still fits with what was told originally. he had that Saiyan attitude until the fall.
the real question is: why do you think Toriyama has done this?After all, I've heard he was always complaining about people mistakenly seeing Goku as a sort of "supermanish" character; and then this... I honestly don't understand what was he thinking.
I have no idea. I have no idea if it was something he was even conscious of. And I certainly don't mind works that take influence from other works. It's almost impossible not to. It's just what you do with it. And this not only is a straight carbon copy ripoff, but it does absolutely nothing with the concept. It clones the Superman concept but doesn't get any of the mileage out of it that Superman does. I mean, obviously, that's difficult-to-impossible because Goku's story has already been written. But that's why I don't think it was a good idea in the first place.
Mostly because he likes Bardock. I think. Can't think of any other reason.
too bad minus is canon deal with it
Toriama fell off. This will never be canon to me.
@@princehenry8155
Way to miss the point of this sub section.
Looking back all they needed to do was write a story about Gine, recreate the scene where Bardock is at the bar/cafeteria and show Gine overhearing Bardock's ramblings, show him glance at her before he leaves and have her rush to the Saiyan nursery and convince the workers there to send Kakarot off to his assigned planet right away. Boom, you could probably tell that story in four pages and it already does everything this story does without compromising Bardocks character. I don't mind the idea of Goku's mother being uncharacteristically gentle for a saiyan, since all that really means is goku grew up to be someone both his parents could be proud of for different reasons.
AHAHAHA you think Akira is that good of a writer? He's a senile old man who couldn't write to save his life.
In regards to Gine, I think something else that really gets me is that- at risk of coming off as a simp- I can't stand that she's just a housewife. Like, I know Toriyama has a problem with making female characters housewives, basically all but barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. But with Saiyans, we wouldn't have that! Saiyans are a warrior race. As far as we knew, they were all warriors, even the weaklings. We'd never seen a female Saiyan in the manga before, but it was understood that they were probably all like Blonde Lunch at best and Future #18 more generally because why wouldn't they? Saiyans are barbarous monsters. They literally live to fight.
Finally, we get a female Saiyan! And it turns out she's the MOST tradwife of all DB females thus far. Like Toriyama took it as a challenge to see how much of a Nadeshiko Yamato he could create. Makes me wonder if Seripa was a mistake, like he intended on her being male for the special too.
HOUSEWIVES? WHAT IS YOUR WESTERN FEMALE SELF TALKING ABOUT?
I was thinking about that too. I kinda like the idea of Gine turning Bardock into someone more compassionate, that he used to be like the Bardock from the anime special until he met her.
But we *NEVER* see how their relationship comes to be or why she's so different from all the other saiyans who do enjoy fighting or why Bardock of all people could fall for her. Toriyama can't write romance but Toyotaro sure seems to be just as incapable of doing so, if the anime ever comes back I hope we get some filler content of them in the Granolah Arc.
@@MADKapo actually toriyama is the one stopping toyotaro from writing romantic material
@@MADKapo I actually think Toriyama can be somewhat capable at romance when he tries. I thought Gohan and Videl's romance was pretty wholesome to me in the Buu arc. Though looking back at it it may have been carried a bit more by filler. But nonetheless it makes me sad Videl got reduced to tradwife status as well
Are u really surprised? He's a sexist through and through this is the same guy who was ok with Videl getting beat around by Spopovich after all. Sure we had 18 beat Vegeta's ass but aside from that part no other females were fighters and could take down an SSJ1. Sure Videl is a fighter but thats thrown out the window once she gets married to Gohan. The man has no clue how to wrote strong female leads and a huge old perert virgin XD!
In most disscusion about anime vs manga (not that I really care much personally), I often seen people complaining that some dubs made Goku to much of a Superman wannabe and that Toriyama was upset about that, however I found odd that he would later made Dragon Ball Minus which made Goku's story look even more like Superman's. Wierd how things turn out.
Thats not it. Toriyama didn't like that Toei & the 90s dub made Goku act too heroic and objectively good, and as Toei wrote most of the movies it took away Goku's willingness to fight and made him more of the guy that rescues his friends and always wins at the end. Thats what he didn't like. Its why he wrote Goku losing in both BoG & RoF. As with Minus making Goku's backstory exactly the same as Superman's now could have been either intentional, or laziness as he seemed to retcon out the fact Goku was sent to Earth to conquer it. Instead they make it as if Gine somehow knew Earth was safe for him, which couldn't have made any sense there.
...but that's the guy Goku was...until all that Saiyan shit he was pretty much a hero that actually killed the people that needed to be killed and saved the world.
edward18517 but goku didn't do any that to save the world. he fought the red ribbon arc because they are in his way. tambourine because he killed his friend, piccolo daimao because he was the reason behind said death, hell even In the 23rd budokai goku cares more about winning the tournament than saving the world.
He was still a god damn hero, something he ain't AT ALL in the modern stuff. Hell, Kid Goku would've NEVER let someone like Frieza live or even think about offering Cell a god damn Senzu Bean with the shit they do.
edward18517 I do agree that Goku did become reckless and selfish as he got older with his actions always being balanced out with selfless acts.
But he never saved the world to save the world
POV: you came back here after Super's latest chapter
I was just thinking that
HOW MINUS SHOULD HAVE BEEN TO BE GOOD :
1- Write at least 5 chapters, not less than 1
2- No pointless cameos used to eat space to the plot
3- DEVELOP the characters we are supposed to care about
4- If it is connected to another work, do not contradict it, down to the outfits
5- Do not devalue the themes it treats (Goku's departure)
HOW MINUS COULD HAVE BEEN GOOD - ALTERNATE VERSION -
1. The Bardock Special already exists, no further action needed. The end.
@@danielquinlan2457
Totally...
Down to the outfits!!! Smh
It just occured to me! The strangest thing I find about this re-imagined story is that I don't really get how Toriyama will insist that goku is a purely selfish guy who wants to fight because of his saiyan lineage then at the same time will write his parents as altruistic do-gooder heretics. This backstory gives the impression that Goku is destined to be a hero with how much it lifts from Superman. Yet at the same time, the fandom will argue about how virtuous Goku truly was, as he continues to be flanderized in Super. Granted that in itself could be hilarious irony, the parents who reject the saiyan way and sacrifice themselves for their son who grows up into being so obsessed with fighting that he puts the planet in danger many times because of his selfishness. But the story "for lack of a better term" in DB minus doesn't really give that impression and it flies directly in the face of what was so good about the saiyan invasion arc. I dunno, I guess Toriyama will just blow in the opposite direction of what was previously established because maybe he wants to feel like dragon ball is still his. That's obviously pure conjecture on my part, but I have no clue otherwise why he would come out of retirement and back track on so much.
2 year necro but Toriyama doesn't insist that about Goku. He's not a superhero but he is a do gooder.
Nobody knows bro
"I'm sure it'll be done in 5 minutes"
That reference...
Hopefully by the end of the year Freeza is dead.
*Hopefully*
lulu1997master I'm hoping we finish the Freeza arc a before September
I'm hoping for what Aidan Stokes hopes for as well.
Addition: Saiyans showed in Saiyan society look goofy, while in the Bardocks' special they were total badasses, even the girls. This Minus and the Brolly's new movie adaptation looks just bad.
I don't think I've ever seen anyone say the Broly movie looks bad before lol.
@@TeamTowers1 It does. I don't mean Shintani's style, is more like the general art direction. Toriyama's fault too.
@@TeamTowers1 mainly in the flashback portion
@@pablodarosa8429 I think it looks fine
@@gamerbrojp9500 good for you
"Let's just forget Dragon Ball Minus"...... Oh Boy, do I got news for you guys.........
- 2018 DB fan after watching the New Broly Trailer 2.......
RIP Bardock Special
Fucking Toriyama wants to shove his new shitty backstory in our face
@@journey95far49i like movie minus bardock a lot more Then special bardock
@@j.a.g816 You just be kidding...
I think its funny how Bamco does the same thing as Lance with 3 eyed Tribe and says Lalalala I Cant hear You!
You know, Bardock literally add nothing to the movie. It's a waste of time for anyone watching it cuz it adds nothing.
Funny thing about is that the so called Dragon Ball Community spent years ragging on the Funimation Dub for making Goku seem more like a Japanese Superman. Then you have Toriyama here basically giving Goku a poor man Superman origin story. Oh the irony 😂
"This may be the worst thing to carry the Dragonball name"
Considering this would include Dragonball Evolution, that's saying a lot
Make no mistake. That is EXACTLY what I'm saying! ^_^
I look forward to your Dragon Ball Evolution dissection video! (In a few years...)
Evolution is not canon. Minus its. As simple as that.
John Porteous hey at least Evolution is part of a different continuity, so it doesn’t shat all over Dragon Ball’s themes
PezConSombrero that’s what makes it worse
14:40 "At least so far there hasn’t been. And that is noooot an invitation to bring this up again in another Dragon Ball work. Let’s just aaall forget about Dragon Ball Minus, shall we ?"
Ooooh boy. You jinxed us reaaal bad with that one.
....Oh God he did...oh no
@@chiharris2810 And now it gets worse
I think the answer to "how could Toriyama do this?" is simpler than it may appear: he liked Bardock, he knew people liked Bardock and wanted to write his own interpretation of "Goku's parent/s" without thinking much about it. I believe, in fact, that if the Bardock special had never been a thing, Toriyama would have never bothered to touch this concept, which naturally sounded *way* better in his head. At the same time, he decided to condense it into a bit more than a dozen pages in a spinoff because he himself ultimately didn't think it was that important.
I get that an author shouldn't take their story too seriously, especially considering how some of its fans do, but when they grow too detached towards their work, this is the result: he forgot what made Goku special was his role and development throughout the story, the characters he met, etcetera, and thought that what made him such must or should have been something prior to even him being a character, which ended up completely butchering the themes of the original manga, showing that he definitely didn't think this through, if not, at all.
Mistare, I get that you've pretty much grown to accept this at the end and that you find pointless complaining about this backstory being present in the Broly Movie at this point since Toriyama has made his stance, but fans are, or at least were upset because of this at the time because they saw it as a chance to make this idea either work better or to completely forget it, as it was just an obscure spinoff that was easily ignorable, probably how Toriyama himself wanted it to be but ended up instead solidifying it on the big screen, affirming its supposed "importance". Maybe they just saw a glimpse of hope, even if you didn't (of course, there's nothing wrong with that, especially since you ended up being correct, but I was just trying to find an explanation to the rest of the community's take).
But yeah, Dragon ball Minus serves as the definitive proof that Toriyama shouldn't, or at least doesn't need to work on the series anymore, even if his role is just giving plot point for Toei or Toyotaro to adapt in a full story so that people can say "Toriyama wrote this, so it's perfectly fine".
It wasmore likely done because Bardock was popular and useful to try and sell Jaco on it.
Kal-O-Korotto!!!!
Says the brilliant Scientist.
This is not your channel... ~_~
Kelkarot-El? If Superman and Dragonball ever cross over, Goku and Superman need to fuse. Only question is who Vegeta fuses with
"Kneel before Vegeta!"
Hmm...Superman doesn't really do rivals. Well, asides from Billy Batson I guess
your subscriber count doesn't justify your work. multiply it by 50 and then maybe it will lean closer to how many subscribers you deserve
That's very kind. Thank you so much!
Just a Super Saiyan multiplier? Why not the factor between SSJG Goku and Beerus' "true" power?
(Yep, I went there. No regrets.)
Super saiyan god super saiyan Mystic super saiyan 4 Why did you name yourself Caulifa's new form??
@Rugged Rugged what
@Rugged Rugged you're wrong
I always viewed Dragon Ball Minus as Toriyama illustrating a checklist of story/character beats for a comic he felt too dead physically to do. Introduce Bardock doing Saiyan job of killing to take planets, Introduce Freeza's fear of Super Saiyans and bringing them together to wipe them out, show some of Saiyan civilization, show Bardock's relationship with his family to contrast his violent career, have Bardock grow suspicious at Freeza's odd request using his instincts, send son off to save him, etc.
Toriyama basically said just doing the one volume of Jaco nearly killed him. So it doesn't surprise me he didn't do more. Maybe in an alternate universe, we could have gotten a one volume Bardock manga exploring things in detail.
Honestly, I liked the idea of Bardock having some humanity in his love for his family even as he gave zero fucks at murdering innocent aliens (a nice contrast that lets him be a villain, but be one with a little depth). I also liked that Freeza planned out the death of the Saiyans, because it was a massive coincidence that all but four Saiyans happened to be on planet when he randomly decided to blow it up given the race were basically planet-conquering space pirates. I especially liked the idea of Bardock figuring out something was amiss rather than Psychic Powers telling him. Imagine in a full-length manga building up Bardock's suspicions, a slight doubt ballooning outward as the more he investigates, the more he realizes the truth, but everyone else just writes him off as paranoid without solid proof, so he saves his son the only way he can.
So much potential...but I suppose that's life. Not every idea gets the nurturing it needs to grow into something interesting.
+Mewzard Agree with all of this. If Toriyama couldn't do it himself he should have asked somebody else to help him. He's an old man- people would understand if it meant more Dragon Ball.
Minus is terrible. I think Toyotaro needs to retcon it because what Minus ruins for me the most is how it completely erases the motivation for Bardock that is a necessity to set up the conflict that overshadows the importance of his goal and Goku's precursor. The fact that Bardock & the Saiyans are supposed to worship Freeza in the start, only to be betrayed because of their blind loyalty and sole value to them being power, they wanted to please Freeza by being the strongest they could only for that to be the cause of his fear. It would be fine if Bardock figured out that Freeza was going to turn on them but he should be in shock, fear and anger being what motivates the need to surpass Freeza or else it. It doesn't make sense.
There is also no build up or reasoning behind why Freeza wants to kill them so quickly. Hes just told of the Super Saiyan and shoe-horned in Super Saiyan God, (which there is no way it should fit in to the bardock story at all), he just does it off of a rumor and no credible source at all. There is no reason for that rumor to even come up. Its just randomly mentioned and Freeza's already genocidal. This is just terrible. If you read the Raditz origins Toyotaro write, it makes a lot more sense of this situation than what Minus fails to do. It also doesn't make sense how all it takes is just Vegeta to ignore the order and he survives. He ignores the order with no real fear of Freeza as if he posed no threat, when in the Bardock special, Vegeta hated and feared Freeza but only did what Freeza said to bide time for him waiting to betray him. Minus completely changes this to just Vegeta casually ignoring Freeza, and he gets no penalty at all for lying?
Mewzard yeah and the problem is toriyama at that time and possibly still now is never told no anymore
The George Lucas Effect is real
Gine's characterization bugged me with her being meek and pure though as opposed to being strong like 18.
Watching this after finishing the Granolah Arc is quite hilarious. I can’t believe they went ahead and shoehorned this into the actual continuity of the Manga.
You think the Granolah arc and not this itself did that??
I'm just gonna say this:
"This device to control my son was created by Bardok."
"The scientists?"
"The very same!"
"Toriyama-sama can do no wrong!"
JoJo Banks except our lord Akira(JumpTheShark)Toriyama into your heart or be called a filthy casual.
That side of the fandom kind of annoys me. Toriyama's a normal human being and therefore makes mistakes. Blindly worshiping him and not saying when he's being consistent or slacks off on something doesn't really help anyone.
Any fandom has this issue. People love to imagine creators are some kind of gods. This is very bad but most people are just that dumb. That's why I never go into fandom of things that I love because it would make me hate it lol.
Those people haven't gave the series much thought. When you do the story and inconsistencies are infuriating. They're good moments but a lot of bad. It's the action and art that drives the series.
JoJo Banks facts this kid is a 🥜
So basically, watch the Bardock special instead?
I gotchu fam
Thankfully, Videogames KNOW which Bardock is superior, since OG Bardock has apperead in Xenoverse 2 and Fighterz; while minus Bardock has yet to appear even in heroes.
My guess, is that this won't change.
Aaaaand minus bardock has been added in heroes.... goddamit... but since heroes does include every kind of character is not too much of a issue...
Let's see for the next big game, that project Z
And he hasn't showed up...
Granted, this Project Z ultimely was just about the Z and the 2 movies of 2013 and 2015... so neither the context of the special / minus did...
I don't care....Akira Toriyama's word isn't as good as it used to be. The author only has as much credibility as he manages to retain. Who cares...I'm disregarding it and keeping it as the Bardock special. Since come on let's face it the only way Bardock could have faced Freeza and anticipated Freeza's rebellion is if he had psychic powers.
Screw Dragon Ball Minus.
screw you
True, toriama fell off. Fuck minus.
Wow. It's totally necessary to spew hatred at the author, and people who like his work.
Why not just fuckoff and go watch Rick and Morty or some shit, fuckin cool guy
83assassin Toriyama is going senile
It's amazing how Minus manages to completely go at odds with rabid fanboys trying to justify Goku's flanderization in DBS by saying that "Toriyama has always wanted Goku to not be heroic like Superman". Not only Minus completely destroys that argument by making a Kal-El out of the guy, but it also posts a serious question of how barbaric the Saiyans exactly are. If we are to believe that Bardock is actually a decent guy and Gine is borderline angelic, then where is this battle impulse Goku has in DBS coming from? Is he not being evil supposed to be a minority or is it predestined? If it's the former, then why was he landed on Earth violent and disobedient at first before he took a knock to the head? Why does middle-age devolve his character into being even less adjusted and sensible than his child self? It can't be the gene because the parents are not battle-crazed maniacs we used to believe, and it can't be because of his friends and mentors, because both they and his childhood villains were equally amazed by his antics.
Minus is probably the only time modern Toriyama managed to make something that amused me, yet I'm still not convinced by his writing ability.
I love the rage towards the end, it is completely justified.
It's so rage inducing it can cause Super Sayain transformations.
Funny how Toriyama likes to complain about the comparisons people make between Goku and Superman.
And yet the more you look at Goku's development over time after the Saiyan arc and the more Dragonball stuff Toriyama writes, like DB Minus, the more he seems to be re-writing Goku to be more and more like Superman.
The fact that he kept throwing new random powers to Goku in the original manga (like mind reading and instant transmission) and then rewrote Goku's parents to be just like Superman's (in DB Minus) makes me think he subconsciously WANTED to make Goku like Superman. He's probably not even aware that he's doing it.
Toriyama has no self awareness of what he's doing. And that really hurts his ability to write good stories.
"Funny how Toriyama likes to complain about the comparisons people make between Goku and Superman." toriyama never said such a thing
@@banzafid7181
The point still stands though... because he stll said that Goku is no hero
@@a.liguria2698 I still hate that statement
@@tanyaharmon6739
That Toriyama stated that Goku is no hero?
Yeah... I too hate that, but not much for the statement itself, rather for how much the way he wrote Goku contradicts that, you can't have main character x be no hero, then twist his actions as always being positive with no bad ramification, or always force him in the spotlight against the current evildoer, even when he has no personal reason to (cough Moro arc cough)
@@a.liguria2698 THE MORO ARC IS TOYOTARO RIPPING OFF DRAGON BALL AND WRITING A LOAD OF GARBAGE.
My god, you sound so pissed. Rightfully so, this story is a piece of crap tail-ending an enjoyable mini series. You make a fair point, the only point making me prefer this to Dragon Ball Evolution, is that it is so short that I don't have to waste my time on it for more time then necessary.
@dayzgone with Evolution.... you can literally say it doesn't exist cause it doesn't.. with this.. this is real and story wise been in the universe since before Dragonball... I'd much rather watch this vid than watch/Read either of them tho Haha.
12:48 onward really sums up my issues especially with Gine. I can't even hate her due to her character because SHE HAS NO CHARACTER!! She's just a jarring stereotype there to make Bardock and Goku (yet...not Raditz) more super special awesome which ironically makes them even more ordinary so it couldn't even do that right. Minus like all the recent additions is just more disappointing and pointless than angering for me especially since we gained so little yet lost so much in just 16pgs.
Also I notice you didn't touch on the art. I wanted to get your opinion the evolution (or regression in my shallow fangirl opinion) of Toriyama's art style.
Yeah, someone else mentioned that in a comment too. I thought about putting some stuff in about the art, especially after I had talked about it in Episode of Bardock, but it ultimately didn't really fit. The video was already far too long, and there just wasn't a good place to put it without breaking the flow. And, honestly, I don't really have that many strong opinions one way or the other. I prefer the art from certain other eras, but it doesn't bother me either.
Understandable, I mainly wanted to know if there was any interesting tidbits or just a general comparison to the original manga or Ooishi's style in Episode of Bardock. Still I don't think anyone would've have minded a slightly longer video I mean you're still on the Freeza saga......nearly one year later, brevity is not welcome here!
@@ThexDynastxQueen HOW DOES CRAPPY GINE MAKE BARDOCK AND GOKU SPECIAL? LOL
“He should be place on a shelf” well that didnt age well
I think Team Four Star’s review of Dragon Ball Super Broly, which basically has a portion of Dragon Ball Minus in it said it all
“Instead of Goku being this cool take on the Superman origin, what if we just GAVE Goku Superman’s origin”
I remember MasakoX's discussion video on this & he said there's nothing stating that the special & Minus aren't compatible. Bullshit there's not. Characterization is different for Bardock, Goku's not in a maternity ward, etc. Minus is bullshit, plain & simple.
Yeah, with all due respect to MasakoX, they are completely incompatible. For example, even ignoring the age issue, there is no way Freeza's forces sent Goku to earth, AND Bardock and Gine also sent him to earth. It is simply impossible for both of them to have happened in the same continuity.
Exactly. I plan on getting the Jaco manga in the near future so I'll finally have the proper context to appreciate his character if I end up rewatching Resurrection F (to which I disagree with you on it being bad, it's just the ending that ruins an otherwise decent, but not perfect, DBZ film) & Super outside of "he's a character from a prequel manga," so I'll get all of the details of Minus then, but from everything I've seen, it's Toriyama going WITH the "Goku is like Superman" argument rather than against it like he, possibly unintentionally, did over the years before.
There are very few pieces of material made by the anime staff that are meant to be canon to both it & the manga. The last 2 movies were supposed to be, Super's supposed to be, & I think the Bardock special was made to be taken that way as well. Just as the movies before the last 2 were supposed to be taken as side stories that couldn't normally be slotted in anywhere comfortably, for the most part, the Episode of Bardock special was the same way. However, none of them specifically rework a previously established thing to make themselves work. They just introduce NEW things into the continuity, anime or manga.
I wonder if Toyotaro would've done it better if there even HAD to be the reimagining in the first place. Many fans like his version of Super's events in the manga more than Toei's.
It's part of Masako's shtick that he has to be big-eyed excited about all things Dragon Ball. I suspect much of that is just the way he wants to portray himself on UA-cam but his videos feel disingenuous as a result. I love his work generally... but can't really watch it when it seems he's playing a character that loves Dragon Ball instead of really communicating his passion.
I've never really got the vibe from Masako that he's being a disingenuous or has a shtick since there were videos here and there where he mentions things he has disliked about Dragon Ball before (as well as mentioned ways certain weaker storylines could be improved). He's just a bit less cynical.
Can't say I agree with him all the time, like in a case like this one, but he usually feels genuine.
How's it bs?
I finally read Jaco the Galactic Patrolman today thanks to my local library near school. I didn't anticipate it would be THAT good. My favorite part was probably when Jaco beat up the special forces and then they comment on how he beat him in one panel. I got a pretty good laugh out of that.
Though that does mean I got to read Dragon Ball Minus, which was... boring. No fun was had.
Well our hopes of this never being brought up again is dashed away. Now Toriyama for some reason adds this lower than dirt manga into the new DB Super Broly movie.😒
"Best Dragon Ball movie in years" my ass.
@@horaciosi It still was
It still is
Ah...the age old debate on Dragon Ball "canon". I will never understand people who think that if the OG author says or writes something 20+ years after the work has ended then it absolutely MUST be canon. What's that? Doesn't mesh with the original work or is not brought up in the original story? Too bad! OG AUTHOR SAID IT SO ITS CANON!
To me, Dragon Ball canon ended with the end of the original manga and the anime canon ended with GT. Anything that comes out later is nothing more than cash grabs and Toriyama making shit up, like the model for #16 being Gero's son, 17's life post-Cell and contradicting statements with regards to Yamcha and Tenshinhan and the list goes on and on.
Every new DB media since 2008 (especially Dragon Ball Super) is a fanfic-y AU as far as I'm concerned. Bringing Freeza back to life, the heroes being cool with it after the horrors they witnessed and knowing Freeza will continue his genocide, bringing Broly into canon, a messy AU tournament, lazily named and designed new Super Saiyan transformations and so on. I have had little to no interest in any of the new stuff. DB ended on a satisfying and logical conclusion in Z and even GT was a logical ending for many characters based on what we saw at the end of Z. Trying to cram all this new stuff between the end of Buu and the 5 year time gap where Goku and co haven't seen each other is silly.
17's life post-Cell is Buu arc
It hurts my soul that we have to accept this as the new canon now
I choose to believe what was shown in the Broly movie, and once he is offscreen he then goes to confront Freeza like in the original. At least that helps me stomach the jarring changes.
Ikr.
That's one of the reasons why I left the Dragon Ball franchise
@@joj5150 Unfortunately, it simply doesn't work in that case. In the Special, that last stand made sense because Bardock was alone and broken. No way of escaping, no one believed him, no way of winning. It's just him trying to stop Freeza.
Without that context, it simply doesn't work as well. It's just a generic last stand.
@@cellperfecto421 Okay. It's a headcanon.
>"Or if the all the other Saiyans were too stupid to put 2 and 2 together"
YOUR FATHER WAS AN AVERAGE FIGHTER BUT A BRILLIANT SCIENTIST!
Ah, so the main problem with the story is how much less of a story it is, but a summary. That was my problem with both the Trunks Story and Android 16 in the manga, where his death had no impact whatsoever do I not knowing him compared with the anime.
Sounds fair, and is the best observation I've been given. Nice work Mistare!
Like so many recent Dragon Ball things, Minus is filled to the brim with "Lost potential" I would argue I'm not even opposed to the idea of Goku's mom being more soft-hearted, if it's in the context of a saiyan.
Like they mention that she's weak and has to be saved frequently. I can understand how that could work, sort of tie in to the implication that Goku and Raditz were really weak and low level. Even the idea of her weakness somewhat causing bardock to be more compassionate could've been explored. But it would've been nice to see some implication that she was still as cruel as other saiyans...just not as competent.
Having a routine Saiyan pod sendoff like normal but then at the last second bardock sends Goku from a more dangerous planet to Earth because he has a momentary lapse and feels a need to protect him like his mother. You can totally DO something with this idea and keep the ferocity of the saiyans without making them special snowflake "good guys". It's like Toriyama himself is missing the point of saiyans.
Bardock getting soft because of the damsel on his team somehow not a liability let alone her not dying? Or why did she not get any Zenkais? Wouldn't saving her all the time prevent that? Even though it breaks the Saiyan belief that the weak shouldn't get in the way of the strong. Even if that was something only higher ranked Saiyans believed, Minus still fails to establish this or why she is an exception in the context of Saiyan culture, they just make her seem like a general nice girl, which contradicts Toriyama saying full blooded Saiyans liking strong willed/tough females.
I mean, Just because their culture as a whole gravitated towards strong willed people doesn't mean no one would find Gine attractive.
That said that goes back to the "Bardock and Gine are special" thing that I hate. I should have said I'd much rather Gine have simply been "PHYSICALLY" weak rather than weak hearted.
Instead of retconing the Special, the story should have been about Gine. if she is different for being weak and yet allowed to remain in their clan there should have been a story about that. I mean she has a tail too, what difference is there for her being weak in base as opposed to an Oozaru? Minus ends up creating more questions than it even tries to answer let alone contextualize.
@@yotomoe5953 oh yeah being compassionate totally equals weak hearted I guess i also have a weak heart because i care enough to give my cat food and water everyday i should just be "strong willed" and leave my animals to fend for themselves i guess the dogs can just search for their own food in the wild if that's the case
Damn, nice work on this latest addition to the DB dissection.
I wish something like this for One Piece existed.
One piece is always great
Dude, thanks a ton for doing these videos. These summarise the appearances of Bardock in a very digestible and useful way, and as you can probably tell by my profile, it will all prove invaluable. Keep up the good work dude!
Great video! I always get happy when I see another Dragon Ball dissection in my feed :)
minus IS the worst product to carry the Dragon Ball name. Loved your total bashing of the wasted panel space. Your DBD videos are a treat I stumbled upon in October. Always looking forward to the next one. Keep up the solid work, man!
The rant at the end is cathartic AF
Haha, phew, it is kind of cathartic. I hadn't heard it in awhile.
Toriyama's newer art style still weirds me out
If Episode of Bardock and Minus were put side by side with no context of who made what I almost would have thought episode was the one he made
This series is one of the best things on UA-cam
I think this isn't getting the views it deserves at all, but the good thing is such a huge project will forever be relevant
people will see it
I forgot for a sec this was an old vid And when you said “this is not an invitation to bring it up in future db stories” I thought it do be a Segway to the recent chapter of dragon ball super
I have read Dr slump, dragon Ball, all of Toriyama's one shots, hell even jaco manga and I can confidently say this is the worst thing Toriyama has ever written. This was the first thing that almost lose respect for my favorite mangaka. I can't call it the worst dragon Ball thing because it's only 16 pages and it's not even a story, just things happen.
The episode of bardock made less sense and was way more dumb. Evolution, hell that destroys every corner of early dragon Ball. Sagas is a painful experience and a paid a lot of money for that. the broly trilogy has lead to the worst fanbase for a character in all of anime in my opinion and represents every stereotypical view of dragon Ball z.
Bardock should never be used again, Not by Toei, not by Toyo, not by bandai, and most definitely not Toriyama. The character has lost any semblance of what made him great and it's only gotten worse.
Good job, Lance.
Ahh, if I could only work on an official story set in this timeframe :
-Work based on the original special, down to the desings.
-Bardock would be as cold as he originally was, but I would also depict some early missions with his team, maybe to show him developing a slim sense of comradery to justify his reaction to their deaths.
-GINE would be your average saiyan, with a savage appereance and total disregard for her sons, heck the only reason she would have one with bardock would be just in order to make a child, no love or special personality kind of b*****it.
-No pointless cameos if I feel that the space they'd take would be better used for the story.
-No Goku being 3y older than previously stated and being sent clothed in saiyan armor (thing that has only opened more stupid questions)
I wouldn't say Minus is the worst thing Toriyama has ever written, he did write lady red after all :/
In my opinion I liked the physic powers because he saw Goku grow up to a little boy and now a man he dies being proud of his son which is a good thing
To paraphrase Nick Fury:
"I recognize that it's canon, but given that it's a stupid ass canon, I've elected to ignore it."
14:34
Toriyama: damn, you're right there is no impact, lemme fix that rq
(Talking about that dbs manga chapter where goku learns about bardock stuff)
I'm just joking tho, I don't and will not read DBS so idk what actually happened in that chapter. Jjst figured it'd be funny to say this here
Never clicked on DBD so fast. Time for a trip.
Rewatching this review after the most recent arc of Dragon Ball Super and I just can’t believe they made it even worse….
.....It's Super.
They actually salvaged it
I always assumed Raditz' parents told him they sent Goku to planet Earth (he did know that, after all - he went to Earth specifically to look for his little brother), but they didn't tell him WHY, so Raditz just jumped to the conclusion he was sent there to take over the planet, like all other space babies.
As for Goku's age, grandpa Gohan had no way of knowing how old Goku was when he first found him (and neither had Goku, since he lost all his memories shortly after). He probably just opened that pod and went "Well, that looks and acts sort of like a one-year-old baby. I'm gonna call today your first birthday" and then counted from there. (Keep in mind that Goku probably couldn't walk or talk yet, having spent all his life floating in liquid, so it's an easy mistake to make.)
14:40 And then the Broly movie came out. Guess you got the Jimquisition/Zero Punctuation Curse.
Far as I'm concerned, 'Bardock: The Father Of Goku' is 'right', and Dragon Ball Minus should have been Gine hearing about Bardock's cafeteria rant only _after_ he leaves, and sending Goku away out of fear that whether he's right and the planet's in danger or he's lost his mind and is planning on attacking their vindictive, planet-busting emperor for no good reason, Frieza would target his whole family in vengeance.
It's still a retcon to what Raditz said, unless we assume that Gine somehow managed to fake the records of Goku being sent off-world, because the only way Raditz could have found out Kakarot was still alive was either through official records of him being sent there (and making Gine a 'computer geek' is a slippery slope towards 'amazing inventor' status), or he somehow found out that Goku was ON Earth and just... *assumed* he'd been sent to conquer it (because why else would he have been sent out), though...
Now that I'm thinking about it, if what Raditz originally said was true, then how are there no other surviving Saiyan 'infiltrator' children appearing in canon? If the practice was well-known enough for Raditz to find out (or for Nappa to tell him, but why would he tell him anything if he mistreated him anyway?), it couldn't have THAT extreme of a mortality rate and still be in use up until Frieza destroyed the planet... could it? Are the Saiyans THAT barbarous that they'd be willing to throw away THAT many new-born children AND space pods for no real gain?
...or were ALL of the recent ones EXCEPT for Goku unlucky enough to be killed off mid-transit or after landing but before they could adapt...? Ah, that way lies madness, plot holes and multiple instances of conflicting canon. I would have treated Gine like so:
1: Gine, working at the meat plant, gets teased by one of her male fellow 'outcasts' about Bardock having some sort of episode in the cafeteria, so she breaks away from work to try and find him and check on him. The whole way there, she is subtly-but-visibly shunned by those near her, due to her just-barely-above-infiltration-baby power level at birth, and the fact that Bardock dishonourably discharged her from his unit for being too hesitant to kill (in reality, because he has a soft spot for her and could see she couldn't handle the genocide).
2: Gine gets to the cafeteria, hears the (mostly) full story from one of the tables, and leaves their racuous laughter/jeering behind visibly disturbed. "She trusted Bardock, so to hear that he's reacting like that... and he walked in there covered in blood and broken armor?" She gets nervous. She can't find him anywhere she usually would, and when she terminates her search at the hospital and hears some rumors about Frieza pulling ALL of the Saiyans back to the one planet... she gets worried. She acts without thinking, pulls her son out of stasis, and races to the shipyard.
3: The whole way there, she's furious at herself. "What the HELL is she doing?! She is in SO much trouble if she gets caught, they'd think her insane and send her away from her son(/s), no-one would actually believe her if she got stopped...-?" Then she realises there's no-one in her specific area. Where are the guards...? Oh, now she's RACKED with anxiety. She gets to the pods, lays Kakarot in one, looks around for SOMEONE just to try and calm her nerves-and she double-takes at the window. The sky is FULL of Saiyan Elite's... and Frieza's other forces???-!
4: And in a heart-stopping instant, she believes Bardock. Three frozen seconds are taken up by the thought process of "OH GOD SOMETHING TERRIBLE IS HAPPENING, OH GOD BARDOCK MUST BE UP THERE, OH-GOD-OUR-SON-IS-IN-DANGER-" followed by screaming at her locked-up muscles not to freeze up AGAIN, just like (flashback to 'cleaning' a planet with Bardock and alien languages screaming for help/mercy/vengeance), "DON'T YOU *DARE* FREEZE UP, _MOVE_ YOU USELESS GODDAMN FAILURE!"-and she LUNGES for his pod.
5: She doesn't even think about where to send him, she just puts in the lowest-power planet with the highest-estimated 'chance of survival' and sends him off with a hug and a forehead kiss, even though by now he's awake and crying and it tears her heart in two, but she CAN'T lose him. As the pod launches, she tells him that he doesn't HAVE to be like the other Saiyans, he can be whatever he wants and do whatever he wants, just don't look at the full moon, don't forget about his parents, and "You HAVE to stay alive, Kakarot!". Then, in an instant... he's gone.
6: And the self-recrimination slams into her with enough soul-crushing force to bring her to her knees. Breaking the law like this... either Frieza's going to kill her or King Vegeta (who she doesn't know is already dead) will hunt them BOTH down for doing the same thing that one advisor did, the difference being... she's not important. She's not strong. She's just some butcher with too much heart to be a 'true' Saiyan, and as the unmistakeable glow of an enormous energy attack is launched towards the planet, her life flashes before her eyes.
7: Meeting ~Bardock~, realising just how FUCKED UP she is on their very first 'scouring', not being able to take the pressure despite the one guy who supported her the whole way doing what he can to keep her functional despite the guilt, being discharged and tossed into a meat-working plant because that was all she was good for, her son being sent to god-only-knows-where... and now she and her 'husband' are dead, consigned to oblivion because the tyrant they'd faithfully served for DECADES had seemingly-randomly (BEE-RUS!) decided to wipe them out.
8: She doesn't think, in her last moments, that 'if only she wasn't born so WEAK and EMOTIONAL and PACIFISTIC' that she could stand up to Frieza. She knows that she's just a nobody, and that if it weren't for her 'nobody' mate pulling strings for her, she'd be dead or sent to die for her lack of 'fighting spirit' and 'murderous intent'. Even if she magically became that 'legendary super saiyan' everyone was gossiping about, it wouldn't change anything. But at least... at least both of her sons are alive. At least she'll be with Bardock again, soon. Fade to white.
9: The 'stinger' shows Raditz, having nothing better to do after a particularly-painful mission and being as infuriated as always that both of his 'fellow' Saiyans still look down on him, goes through some old mission logs that were automatically transmitted to a backup on Frieza's ship right before the planet was destroyed... and finds his brother's name, with his mother's authorisation, sent to a quiet little mudball called 'eArth'. In shock, he 'ass-u-me's that she'd spontaneously grown a spine, broken rank, and sent him out illegally (conveniently JUST ahead of the 'meteorite'), and thanks her for 'another target for those two to push around, and another loyal soldier for Frieza'. Fade away of him walking down a hallway and openly wondering to himself how to approach the subject of there being 'a fourth (or so he thinks) remaining Saiyan' to Vegeta.
There. Parallels the B:FoG episode by giving us an ACTUALLY WEAK, lowly worker-class 'nobody' who acts in a canon-consistent way, still portrays Bardock as having an at-least-SLIGHTLY soft side like Minus DID, and with a decent bit of pathos, while also showing the 'other' side of Saiyan culture... the one reserved for the 'necessary weaklings' to keep the 'important warriors' satisfied. The one that shows just how unfortunate it is to be born below the fine line between 'below-average' and 'unworthy of consideration'. An interesting comparison of how Bardock seeks to protect the Saiyan race, despite being a race of savages who nevertheless still look down on him, because he genuinely believes in their self-reinforcing 'Saiyan's Pride!' propaganda... and Gine's disillusioned reality of being (at MOST) a third-class citizen behind the Elite Warriors like King Vegeta and the mediocre soldiers like Bardock, doomed to be forgotten for the crime of being born 'not Saiyan enough', but ironically being a HUGE driving factor behind Goku's disposition post-headbump and inadvertently creating a well-known 'sort-of-a-Hero' trope. Even explains some things, like how Raditz found out about Goku in the first place, while reminding us that Saiyans were Asshole Victims at best.
Dragon ball minus muscles
Why is baby goku so lanky in this comic? He looks even taller than how he did on the first chapter of the manga.
Yeah DB Minus is complete garbage but hey at least we got this great video out of it. xD Thanks for your suffering Mistare.
With the information Raditz gives all almost being retconned, it would be funny if eventually the it was revealed Goku wasn't even an alien, somehow.
Also it's funny how the creature Bardock looks like shit, like the less humanoid possible you could find so to justify Bardock killing them. Minus!Bardock illustrate perfectly the expectations of the new audience and how sheltered Dragon Ball universe and its characters has turned.
What is terrible is that abomination was written by Toriyama himself.
What do you think of Bardock wiping the Cerealians then?
8:59 Great Scott! That background is utterly GORGEOUS!! 😍
"Of all the stupid...asasine..sharp jumping bullshit!" - Bardock
Hit the nail on the head, the fact that Goku was sent for his safety ruins both the ironic saviour and the low class vs elite elements of the series. That said I'm comfortable pretending it isn't "canon". I hope it never gets brought up again by future material.
its canon dumbass it has been said already
Glenn Quagmire just bc. its canon doesnt mean its good or makes sense
and stop going around insulting people who dare criticize minus bc. you just make a fool out of yourself everywhere you write this
@@Den-pw3jt The new Broly teaser has pretty much canonized Minus to the anime, so I've heard on Reddit and Kanzenshu. Thats second hand knowledge although, plus Toriyama did write it. It is what it is.
Oh boy.... Broly Trailer 2 has some bad news for ya
damn turns out it ended up being in future material
welp...they reused him again, both in the retelling of dragonball minus for the prequel of dbsuper broly, and also as backstory in the granolah arc
I’m glad others hate this retcon of Goku’s backstory.
*starts slow clap
Geek Army *starts clapping faster
Watching this for the 20th time by now. How ya feeling Lance?
I was massively shocked by minus as well, didn't know what to do but pull my hair out lol and I really tried just to sum it up as.. okay, the tv special is cannon with the anime and minus with the manga. But now listening to your breakdown of minus it doesn't work at all. I'll tear my hair out again.
25:05 When Lance's voice goes that low, you know he's about to Hakai someone.
I never thought that someone could possibly give me *more* reasons to hate Dragon Ball Minus. At this point, the things this gets wrong could possibly be infinite as far as I know.
"Dragonball Minus fans"
Wait, they still exist?
DB Minus ain't cannon in my head.
Read Toyotaro's backstory for Raditz. Is way better.
I would fucking break my TV if Toei fucking animates this Atrocity in DBS
+விஷ்ணு கார்த்திக்
Welp, you're in for some surprise, because it's going to be in the broly film.........I hate you toriyama!
its canon so just shut up with your bullshit once again
Damn, you were a lot calmer than I thought you'd be during this one...
Not to me
Woah woah woah! You're calling Resurrection F a terrible movie?! I will take my fanservice and leave, thank you very much! (I've still got some sour grapes about that ending, though. We're just...not going to give Vegeta anything to do? Goku can just take that kill from him? I haven't felt that robbed since Naruto killed Kakuzu rather than getting to see Shikamaru's squad complete their vengeance quest.) To avoid the potential confusion, though, I can totally see where you're coming from. Personally, I liked Rez F for...probably all of the wrong reasons. I was more enamored by the character interactions that lead up to the climax rather than the climax itself. So...basically, I was more interested in the "filler" (I.e. Bulma talking with Freeza) rather than the plot itself.
This fandom can find anything to justify why their standards are as low as they are for this series, but ROF was boring. It was a movie of no story or substance at all, the premise didn't make sense, Freeza wasn't even a threat, his power up was ridiculous and the movie was just a short fight with a bad ending.
Lloyd Irving and you can't do any better so shut up
Glenn Quagmire ...thats the worst argument people use. first of all you dont know anything about this person you responded to and second of all to criticize something you dont need to be capable of doing the same thing
according to this there would be no reviews given and people would never criticize something, deconstruct it ect. bc. they need to have the skill of what they are criticizing even tho. you dont need to to judge something
for example, if someone i know is addicted to something and it affects him/her negatively then do i need to be addicted myself to whatever they are addicted to, to know that they need help and support and change this?
To sum it up, you can judge something for yourself and offer suggestions and take it apart even without writing experience or any skill in whatever your criticizing
I think Mr Joy in his Dragon Ball Super review pretty much pointed out why Revival of F is garbage and why bringing back Frieza was a terrible idea.
ua-cam.com/video/N0ffdeJ77Bo/v-deo.html
ROF isn't as bad some people make it out to be. Minus runs as a terrible retcon that irritates the fanbase and Toriyama dose this alot nowadays.
14:41 Huh boy, going back to this in 2023, they sure took it as an invitation. Twice. Almost feels like it was done to spite ya.
“Let’s just all forget about dragon ball minus”...*Stares as DBS Broly Movie trailer* ...Welp
_Curb your enthusiasm theme plays_
It's because of complete and utter bullshit like how Toriyama portrays Bardock in Dragon Ball Minus that I don't understand how anyone can be looking forward to Toriyama's portrayal of Broly in the upcoming Dragon Ball Super movie.
Honesty that's why I don't care for the movie. Though the story of the original Broly movie is bad anyway. It can't be worse than this though. I don't want to find out if it's true or not.
@@spartanq7781
The original Broly movie is your standard DBZ movie. The point of having Toriyama on board is to do something only he could come up with, something different from the rest. Then Dragon Ball Minus and Resurrection F happened, and they sucked. Minus completely spits in the face of the far superior Bardock special, and Resurrection F is a typical Dragon Ball Z movie. Toriyama isn't doing anything Toei wasn't already doing without him. So, what's the point of him being around?
@@Gardetrace
So that the fanboys can say "Uh, but Toriyama did it, so ut is automatically canon and pure gold uh, uh UH !"
I'm seriously waiting for the day in which Toriyama won't be around anymore and to keep milking the show they will either :
-reboot the show (because of too many bs being added)
-give the rights to a guy who hopefully will completely disregard the minus and-or super itself.
Because db is clearly becoming the dc or marvel of japan.
this...this is genius. Thank you for making this masterpiece.
OH BOY, WE'VE FINALLY COME HERE!
Oh God, the Dragon Ball Super Broly movie is going to have this as its opening act...
and it made it good.
+Tyler No, it didn't. All they did was add the planet destruction scene.
The "story" part is the reason I don't like Battle of the Gods. To me that isn't a story either nor a movie. It feels like an extended special.
I didn't even know this "story" had fans. Like, how does anyone like this? Unless it's their first exposure to dragonball with no knowledge of anything that came before it
One thing I've noticed arguing with some people who like this bonus chapter, including a friend of mine, is that a good portion of them seems to like Dragon Ball Minus not for it's own merits, but because of stuff we didn't actually see. I won't be saying that people can't enjoy their stuff for whatever reason, I'm not even in a position to do so, since the Boo arc is now my favourite between the last 3 arcs in the series just because I think it's fun and it has a lot of elements that reminds me of early Dragon Ball.
I just don't understand when I see people arguing that I can't criticize Minus' interpretation of Bardock, because he's the same as the one from Bardock Special (Which he's not, from the little to nothing we see from him, Id' say he's different enough to be considered "another character") and that Minus doesn't explicitly erase all events from the Bardock Special... I mean, there's nothing *explicitly* stating that Bardock coudn't have the same history with his crew or whatever, but I don't think that's the intention here, since there's nothing implying any connection and it would also be pretty stupid if you had to watch an episode that cannot fit in the same continuity as this chapter just to get the full story.
I also heard people talking about those 70 minutes of cut content on DBS Broli, and saying that I can't judge this new Bardock because we didn't see those scenes, it bugs me even more because as far as I know, there's not a single evidence that there was ever any cut content related to Bardock in this movie, which makes me believe that some Minus fans agree that this new interpretation lacks in substance, but there's still some new elements that they seem to enjoy, and since they don't seem to realise exacly how they feel about the work, they end up defendig it by dismissing anyone who criticizes it, with the argument of "Wait, there could be a lot of cool things we didn't see yet!" (Tho, as you said in your video, the biggest problem with Minus is the damage it causes on the themes of the series, so I don't think there's any way to make me dislike it less just by expanding on it)
Wonderful video Lance, really enjoyed this Bardock "trilogy" of yours. Just a random question: if Bardock is ever re-visited would you rather see someone like Toyotaro or Toei handle the writing rather than Toriyama? Do you think there is any hope to save the character of Bardock and what he does/should represent?
It's hard for me to think of any other way to save him besides just leaving him alone. He had a very graceful exit in his original story, and bringing him back has done nothing but dilute that. I never want to say there's no way, especially when I've just woken up and can't really think straight. But I'm tempted to say they should really just cut their losses.
I know your question was directed at Lance but I'll give you my answer too.
The way that Toyotaro can "save Bardock" is writing a note in a future manga chapter of DB Super saying something like "Yeah Bardock was Goku's father, if you want to know about him watch the bardock special" it might be cheesy and a bit lazy but I would forgive clunky exposition in this case. ---- Hell for good measure can just break the fourth wall and say that Toriyama was drunk when he wrote Dragon ball Minus.
Do I think it'll happen? Probably not but then again this is the series that gave us Girl Broly, Evil Goku, Future Trunks returning and 6 new Super Saiyan transformations (Which is 7 if you count Full Power SSJ Blue), so nothing is impossible with Super.
But baring that any attempts to try and do things differently are just going to face-plant in my opinion.
@@ericbrown6203 *chugs drink*
YAYYYYYY! I love you dissection senpai!
Oh dear me, there goes my dignity
I don't mind
Was the mention of Goku dad being a scientist a reference to the Ocean dub that had Goku's dad be a scientist that made the energy ball that lets Saiyans transform without a moon?
A little inside joke to it, yes. ^_^
MistareFusion So glad that was the case n that I watched the show back when people went to another dimension
No matter how many times I watch this, I’m still not tired of it. I’m always down for Minus hate
Lmao, this was so little of a story that it was made into a fraction of DBS Broly's prologue (not even the whole prologue)
That song at the end, I love it! What's it called?
14:35 Suddenly, Dragon Ball Super: Broly. At least, I dunno. I’m just hearing things, but forgetting about Minus is probably going to be harder considering it’s actually part of the movie. Either way, great job on this review! I also saw your DBZ Movie 7 video, and I think I’m going to check some more of your content. This honestly has me interested.