Its crazy that every tekken game after that the new combo systems (bound, tailspin) have powercrept him to oblivion, he's still decent but now many more characters have his wall carry for better dmg and much easier.
I'd personally argue that the issue wasn't in the systems themselves, but rather that the stages weren't adjusted to compensate for the change in systems, plus the adjustments in relative character power. Like sure, Lee has incredible wall travel even nowadays in S4, but the issue is that you only need *so much* wall travel. To put it into perspective, Lee might be able to carry someone 1.5x the length of a larger stage from the center, but that extra 0.5x you can carry them doesn't actually actually matter. They're already at the wall, and overkill wall travel doesn't give you any kind of benefit. The stages aren't big enough to accommodate his wall travel and actually make it shine as a strength of the character. Of course, the S3 powercreep of giving everyone even more infinite wall travel didn't help either. I hope I'm explaining this well enough.
I think that is getting fixed more or less in Tekken 8. The bound is different and many moves that gave characters in T7 an easy wall carry are removed or nerfed. As for Lee himself due to universal scaling mechanic his combos are as hard as in T5DR and do as much or even a bit less damage than they used to.
I think the issue is related to how 10 hit strings work. For whatever reason they are programmed to always count towards the combo counter. If you do moveset edits and slap a chunk of a 10 hit string anywhere, the hits from that will count towards the combo counter, even if the ai is knocked out just to get up and eat the unblockable or blocks in between. I'm guessing Lee's df1 has this property as it's the first hit of his 10 hit string. The animation looks very basic and legacy, they might have tweaked the move length over time but not its properties.
Where that "low damage Lee" thing even came from or why it didn't died out already? Now dude has staple ~70 dmg combos from db2/uf4, ws2,3, RD can go up to ~100, have one of the best wall combos and he launches from CH d3, other keep-out chars. can't even dream about that.
Lee Punishment - 5/5 Best 8 punisher in the game with 1,2,4. -10 he gets 1,2,4 or 2,1 for better frame adv but less damage. Long distance -10 frame punisher with f+4 is also nice. -14 on up Lee gets u/f+4 which is good. Moves with slight pushback he gets acid storm and moves with further pushback he gets b+1,1,2 for a nice chunk. ws he has ws+3,3 for -10 and -14 Lee gets u/f+4 knee launcher which is one of the better ws arsenals in the game. Offense - 2/5 Lee has got a great mid with b+4 and other annoying mid pokes. However him not having a better double breaker and better low makes his offense just somewhat threatening. All his lows pokes do good damage; fc, d/f+4, d/b+4, d+3, d/b+3 and slide, they are all very punishable unfortunately so in order for him to break through a turtle he's got to take some risk. His throws have good wake ups though if they get off and a good Lee can keep the momentum going with his low pokes to start doing significant damage. Whiff Punishing - 3/5 ff+3 and b+1,1,2 are his main whiff punishers from afar, acid storm is decent as well. d/f+2 and u/f+4 up close. Not bad, but no launchers from afar makes his whiff punishing average. Keep Out/Panic Moves - 4/5 44, b+4, bb+4, and d/f+4 are great moves, not only for CH purposes but also leading into hitman to cause whiffs. u/f+4 is a great low crush move as well as d+3 for high crush. Wake-ups - 2/3 Lee's throws have good 50/50 wakes with d/b+3 mixed with d+4,4,4,4. Double breaker provides good tech wakes as well. Juggles ending in 2,1,2 set up his fc game which leads to some decent guessing games, but nothing that safely hits on the ground and no mid that hits the ground lessens the threat of his spike juggle. Again, his wakes are good, but nothing overwhelming. Damage - 2/3 His juggles off knee and d/f+2 do mid to upper 50's which is average, but with the damage of b+4 and blazing kick doing upper 60's his damage is slightly above average. His punishment is more painful than most and his low pokes, although punishable, do decent damage enough to cause people to duck. Overall Rating: 18/25 T5DR Character Ranking List by Slips
this game really showcased how unique characters could be, I'm really hoping t8 can bring back that character identity that was lost with later tekken games
In Tekken 6 and Tekken Tag 2, Lee only has 2 moves that are plus on block besides his basic 1 and 2 punches. It's literally the lowest count of plus on block moves, which is strange for a character who's one of the fastest in the game.
Sure, but pressuring on block isn't a core part of the character. He's a counterhit machine with great keepaway and space control. It's by design that he struggles opening people up and breaking turtles. Now, if a character like Dragunov or Miguel had problems opening people up, then we have problems.
Tag 2 Lee wasn't a pressure/frame trap heavy character. And its not like Lee needed to be plus on block anyways. Tag 2 Lee had pretty insane punish tools by modern Tekken standards. Violet was even better punishes (assuming you had the execution for it) but he has to give up some better pokes and is more unsafe on block on some of his moves.
@@dusk112 By DR standards? Hell no. He has zero tracking, all his lows are launch punishable, he has no WS launcher, and his long range punishment is weak in a game where wiff punishment is what wins. He is bottom 10 easy in DR.
@@zerohikari2685 His WS launcher is uf4(needs crouch cancel for ducking highs though) and even though his lows are ultra punishable it was still DR so the other character's lows weren't THAT much stronger than his were other than stuff like Devil Jin Hellsweep. Long range whiff punishes aren't anything special I agree but they get the job done(b112 and ff3) and not as many characters could launch from far away either. I thought his real weaknesses was average open stage damage and lack of threatening mids aside from b4. Bottom 10 sounds way too huge for Lee to be lumped up with Bruce, Jin, Dragunov, Armor King, and Kuma
![Tekken 5 - Lee Chaolan | Story Playthrough [HARD]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/G8f20yq0tTs/mqdefault.jpg)
Its crazy that every tekken game after that the new combo systems (bound, tailspin) have powercrept him to oblivion, he's still decent but now many more characters have his wall carry for better dmg and much easier.
I'd personally argue that the issue wasn't in the systems themselves, but rather that the stages weren't adjusted to compensate for the change in systems, plus the adjustments in relative character power.
Like sure, Lee has incredible wall travel even nowadays in S4, but the issue is that you only need *so much* wall travel.
To put it into perspective, Lee might be able to carry someone 1.5x the length of a larger stage from the center, but that extra 0.5x you can carry them doesn't actually actually matter. They're already at the wall, and overkill wall travel doesn't give you any kind of benefit. The stages aren't big enough to accommodate his wall travel and actually make it shine as a strength of the character.
Of course, the S3 powercreep of giving everyone even more infinite wall travel didn't help either.
I hope I'm explaining this well enough.
I think that is getting fixed more or less in Tekken 8. The bound is different and many moves that gave characters in T7 an easy wall carry are removed or nerfed. As for Lee himself due to universal scaling mechanic his combos are as hard as in T5DR and do as much or even a bit less damage than they used to.
I feel like u have to try so much harder with him to win then later in the set ur burned out cus he does no damage
Watch as Lee drags your ass from yakushima's starting point to the wall😂
@@BorkBigFrighten2At least now we have some giant walled stages that he could possibly get use out of
T4 Lee and T5DR Lee are both so good. Have to see what T8 Lee is like now that they are leaning heavily into his just frame mechanics
T8 Lee is the best Lee
His df1 still combos sometimes.. even now in Tekken 7. I wonder if it still will in T8.
I see
I think the issue is related to how 10 hit strings work. For whatever reason they are programmed to always count towards the combo counter. If you do moveset edits and slap a chunk of a 10 hit string anywhere, the hits from that will count towards the combo counter, even if the ai is knocked out just to get up and eat the unblockable or blocks in between.
I'm guessing Lee's df1 has this property as it's the first hit of his 10 hit string. The animation looks very basic and legacy, they might have tweaked the move length over time but not its properties.
in tekken 7 he does mediocre damage, in this he does illegal damage
Where that "low damage Lee" thing even came from or why it didn't died out already? Now dude has staple ~70 dmg combos from db2/uf4, ws2,3, RD can go up to ~100, have one of the best wall combos and he launches from CH d3, other keep-out chars. can't even dream about that.
"low damage lee" is from the people who try lee and can't mist step, iWS, and don't know that he gets guaranteed stuff after the wall
Lee
Punishment - 5/5
Best 8 punisher in the game with 1,2,4. -10 he gets 1,2,4 or 2,1 for better frame adv but less damage. Long distance -10 frame punisher with f+4 is also nice. -14 on up Lee gets u/f+4 which is good. Moves with slight pushback he gets acid storm and moves with further pushback he gets b+1,1,2 for a nice chunk. ws he has ws+3,3 for -10 and -14 Lee gets u/f+4 knee launcher which is one of the better ws arsenals in the game.
Offense - 2/5
Lee has got a great mid with b+4 and other annoying mid pokes. However him not having a better double breaker and better low makes his offense just somewhat threatening. All his lows pokes do good damage; fc, d/f+4, d/b+4, d+3, d/b+3 and slide, they are all very punishable unfortunately so in order for him to break through a turtle he's got to take some risk. His throws have good wake ups though if they get off and a good Lee can keep the momentum going with his low pokes to start doing significant damage.
Whiff Punishing - 3/5
ff+3 and b+1,1,2 are his main whiff punishers from afar, acid storm is decent as well. d/f+2 and u/f+4 up close. Not bad, but no launchers from afar makes his whiff punishing average.
Keep Out/Panic Moves - 4/5
44, b+4, bb+4, and d/f+4 are great moves, not only for CH purposes but also leading into hitman to cause whiffs. u/f+4 is a great low crush move as well as d+3 for high crush.
Wake-ups - 2/3
Lee's throws have good 50/50 wakes with d/b+3 mixed with d+4,4,4,4. Double breaker provides good tech wakes as well. Juggles ending in 2,1,2 set up his fc game which leads to some decent guessing games, but nothing that safely hits on the ground and no mid that hits the ground lessens the threat of his spike juggle. Again, his wakes are good, but nothing overwhelming.
Damage - 2/3
His juggles off knee and d/f+2 do mid to upper 50's which is average, but with the damage of b+4 and blazing kick doing upper 60's his damage is slightly above average. His punishment is more painful than most and his low pokes, although punishable, do decent damage enough to cause people to duck.
Overall Rating: 18/25
T5DR Character Ranking List by Slips
Second strongest, Violet was insane in 4
I see
Put t5dr Lee on Tekken 7
Imyourfather will win every EVO including combo breaker
can't say anything because characters like akuma feng kuni do exist haha
Off of CH 4 you could get b+1:1~ms more easily than dash 1, though CH 44 was a _much_ more consistent starter for that
no dude
i tried b1 1 many times but it dropped
best option was the dash jabs
this game really showcased how unique characters could be, I'm really hoping t8 can bring back that character identity that was lost with later tekken games
Imyourfather with this lee would be crazy
T6 lee is the strongest
In Tekken 6 and Tekken Tag 2, Lee only has 2 moves that are plus on block besides his basic 1 and 2 punches. It's literally the lowest count of plus on block moves, which is strange for a character who's one of the fastest in the game.
Sure, but pressuring on block isn't a core part of the character. He's a counterhit machine with great keepaway and space control.
It's by design that he struggles opening people up and breaking turtles.
Now, if a character like Dragunov or Miguel had problems opening people up, then we have problems.
Tag 2 Lee wasn't a pressure/frame trap heavy character. And its not like Lee needed to be plus on block anyways. Tag 2 Lee had pretty insane punish tools by modern Tekken standards. Violet was even better punishes (assuming you had the execution for it) but he has to give up some better pokes and is more unsafe on block on some of his moves.
is i8 safe or i10 safe. or was it both depending on the matchup?
I pick T5DR Lee and Baek for the wall travel and Wall combos their combos were sexy
I should figure out how to play this online or something. The newer tekkens dont quite work for me
Haha wow bring back that yoshi skin
yes that skin is so cool
Tooop lol 😅🤣🤣
Excellent combo. Nice combo.
haha thanks bro^^
I think the tekken 4 and tekken 2 versions beat him but true he was a monster !
I see
Excerrent
:D
Omg he is so good in 5 wtf happend
This is cool to see, nice vid bro
thanks bro^^
Bro...what? DR Lee is terrible lmao
He's not. He's a perfectly ok character
@@dusk112 By DR standards? Hell no. He has zero tracking, all his lows are launch punishable, he has no WS launcher, and his long range punishment is weak in a game where wiff punishment is what wins. He is bottom 10 easy in DR.
@@zerohikari2685 His WS launcher is uf4(needs crouch cancel for ducking highs though) and even though his lows are ultra punishable it was still DR so the other character's lows weren't THAT much stronger than his were other than stuff like Devil Jin Hellsweep. Long range whiff punishes aren't anything special I agree but they get the job done(b112 and ff3) and not as many characters could launch from far away either. I thought his real weaknesses was average open stage damage and lack of threatening mids aside from b4.
Bottom 10 sounds way too huge for Lee to be lumped up with Bruce, Jin, Dragunov, Armor King, and Kuma
DR Lee is not his best self, not even close
then tekken 4?
DR has best stages and BGM.
indeed