Everyone likes to talk about how bad Dragunov and AK were in DR and for good reasons. With that though, I think it would be fun to see Lili for once to complete the DR trio (I can give info if needed).
Alright. There is a lot I could say so I’ll try and stick with the more notable points. Lili was not good in DR. She was probably the best out of the 3 newcomers but that isn’t really saying much. . One positive is of course, she had the best sidestep in the game. She could step certain things no other characters could (such as Kazuya df2). That has always been the case for her. . Another positive is that df2 was only -7 on block so she had a safe 16f launcher. Pretty nice although it had less range than it does now and you couldn’t transition to backturn. . Lili did have a strong low parry punish. I’m not sure if it was df2 or d3+4 but she could launch you off a low parry and get solid damage. . b1 (her ub1 in T7/8) was kind of neat. It was 0 on hit (forcing crouch) but it was actually + on block and it launched on counter hit. It’s basically like her df3 is now but it was faster and had less range. df3 funnily enough was - on block in DR so that was weird. . QCF2 is a neat move. It’s similar to QCF1+2 in T8. It was safe on block and on hit, it was something like +14, allowing for a guaranteed mixup (although the opponent could block). You got a launch on counter hit. . Lili is missing a lot of moves she had now and moves she alternatively had for some inputs were worse in a majority of cases. No qcf3+4, no d3, no f4, no f2,3 no standing 3 string, no WS 1,2, she only had one terrible backturn jab and considerably more was missing. . Lili also had almost no stance transitions. The only transitions she had iirc was b2,1 into backturn which was high high in DR (rather than high mid). I also think she didn’t have b2,1,1+2. You also had df3+4 which auto transitioned into backturn, just like now. She had zero transitions into crouch dash, you had to do it manually. Her stances are overall more limited and situational in DR. . Her punishment was a lot worse. 2,4 only worked on counter hit so you had to use 1,2,3 as a 10 frame punish. It dealt 25 damage but it was -7 on hit and launch punishable on block. For 12f, you had 1+2 which dealt less damage than 1,2,3 but knocked down and wall splatted, as well as having a bit more range. You still had hopkick for a 15f punish with good range for a hopkick. As for while standing, all she had before 15f was WS4 which didn’t knockdown on normal hit (and you couldn’t easily cc 1+2 either due to SS1+2). . f2,3, Lili’s long range 12f punish/combo tool just didn’t exist. She instead had f2,1+2 which was a 16f string which was unsafe and only comboed on counter hit. It was a chunky counter hit string though. . 4,1 was not guaranteed on normal hit but 4,1,3 was guaranteed on counter hit for decent damage. 4,1,3 was also guaranteed on the side (without a counter hit) which even led to a knockdown. . SS1+2 was -10, making it far riskier to go for than in later games. One positive though is that on coutner hit, the opponent had some standing frames so you could 1+2 for a damaging wallsplat. . ff3 was super sluggish, only knocking down due to how laggy it was but weirdly, it was 0 on block (I think it forced crouch too). ff3,3+4 actually dealt 1/3 of your life and was also safe. Kind of a weird move in DR. . d1,2 was not guaranteed on normal hit so if you got hit by the move, you could just duck under the second hit. . WS2 was 18 frames and the move was overall very sluggish. If you used it mid combo, you could only really get d1,2,4 afterwards. . Lili’s combos were overall pretty limited. With no bounds, missing moves useful for her combos and no way to effectively utilise crouch dash in combos, you had pretty limited combo routes. Her combo damage was still overall alright, especially if you could get a wall hit in (d3+4 still hurt a lot in particular) but she did not have a lot of combo flexibility. . Lili’s wall combos were not good. She only really got one hit and her wall enders were inconsistent. ff3+4 was her main wall ender to my knowledge which did 21 damage but if the opponent didn’t hit the wall with the right timing or you messed up the execution, it just wouldn’t work. You could settle for a lower hitting wall ender but those dealt less damage and were also inconsistent. 2,4 could work as a stronger wall ender in specific scenarios but that was very, very situational. And those were a bunch of the more notable things off the top of my head. There is a lot I can say about the character and I might have missed other notable things but that’s my main rundown. As a whole, Lili still has strong evasion and can get decent damage in the right scenarios but her moveset is overall significantly more limited in DR. She has worse frames in numerous areas, most of her stuff is easily steppable, her tracking moves have notable weaknesses, she lacks solid fast mid range tools and her combos are limited albeit with alright damage.
If you wanna be technical, this is technically Armor King II’s first appearance. As for Armor King as a whole, yeah, he goes back to the first game where he was very, very busted.
@@bigbangbot-SuperSqank He did write "this is _this_ AK's first Tekken", so he was definitely referring to AK2 being different than AK1 (who was super strong in all 3 of his appearances).
This is like if current capcom designed a grappler for tekken Makes me wonder if lili waz any good in DR, if she sucked too, then thatd be 3 for 3 bad DR chars
To be fair tho in older tekken games breaking throws was really hard, and the fact that he has such a good throw game makes up for him not having lows cuz the throws still crack turtles pretty well, same for drag
(3:49) That move (Reverse Switch-Kick Tornado) is actually b+4,3. b+3 gives the classic Toll Kick. It's an aesthetically pleasing move, shame about how bad it is. Armor King himself could eat the first hit, duck the second, and punish it with Capital Punishment.
(4:25) Armor King doing a jump before some of his moves (Capital Punishment, moonsault, etc.) has always been a very interesting quirk of his. Does it even have any useful applications?
So cool character I've always liked him, well let's say he wasn't training enough in T5 or he was out of shape or something 😅 Really interesting, detailed and informative video as always man, thank you so much for this type of videos 👍👍
His WS+1 is very awkward on CH because it's exactly the same as how it was in TTT1, though in TTT1 it gave guaranteed Dark Upper (CD+2) launch on the opponent's back on CH. The problem came when they changed his Dark Upper (it no longer gave the flip launch and it was now a high instead of special mid, meaning they could now just crouch under it to avoid being launched) and they forgot to change his WS+1 into a regular launcher as well lol. Crazy how they managed to make his CH WS+1 go from his most powerful launcher in TTT1 to an utter piece of shit in DR in spite of (or rather because of) being the same in both games.
She’s probably the best out of the DR newcomers but she is still rather lacking. She’s missing a lot of moves (including key moves), she has significantly weaker punishment and a good chunk of her frames are noticeably worse. Her combos are also quite linear and and she is quite limited/inconsistent when it comes to wall combos. She does have a few upsides like her sidestep and having a completely safe launching df2 but overall, she is a significantly more limited character than she is now.
Only good characters though... Armor King Punishment - 4/5 This is by far and foremost the strongest area of his game. He has all the tools to punish whatever comes his way. - 1,2 punishes 8f - 2,1 punishes 10f - f+1+4 punishes 14f - DU punishes 14f - u/f+4 punishes 15f He also has hopkick out of WS, making a good punisher for ducking throws. Both his 8f and 10f punishment do decent damage but with the added bonus of giving him serious +frames to continue with his offense. His punishment although not the best in the game, is definetly up there. Offense - 2/5 Absolutley piss weak. AK has nothing with which to lockdown his opponent. He have absolutley no strings that can manage such a feat, granted they are all duckable, leading to a launch. I'll give an example. Take d/f+2,1. This is one of the few and better string attacks he has, now lets look at its properties. Firstly start up frames are decent with a 14f initiation but it goes wrong when you look at its block and hit frames. Both these frames are negative. So on block he is at a disadvantage and on hit he is at a disadvantage too, but lets add one more problem to the string, the second hit is duckable. No help there. The majority of AK's movelist is all comprised of single hits i.e. d/f+1_d/f+4_b+1_b+2 etc. Whilst these moves are decent in their own right, they do not give the frames needed to further our offense. If we choose to follow up with anything we will be promptly jabbed out of it. AK's lack of a low has forced us into a situation where our mix-ups are just relied upon mids and throws. This is no way to play a character as throws are often jabbed out of or ducked and punished. All of AK's lows are punishable by a launcher (barring generic d+4), leaving us with a very poor mix-up game. As a result of this, AK has turned into a defense character, often turtling and forcing the mistake out of the opponent, it is no easy way to play a character and requires a high level of knowledge and skill to be able to win with him. Whiff punishment - 4/5 No complaints here as he does have decent tools. DU - Basically the whiff punisher of choice, leads to good damage f+1+4- Is for whiffs that leave opponents in crouch, which a DU will not hit. 1+2,2 - Although DU will be the better choice this still has a use if there is a wall behind your opponent, causing a wall stun. f+2,1 - Another one where DU should take priority but just stating it as it does do decent damage and has some reach. Good for getting wall splats. Nothing spectacular but something do be wary of. Wake up - 2/3 Another area where AK is half decent. His wakeups will cause havoc if you mix it up well. His tools are: u/f+3+4- The only reason this is great is because it forces crouch on your opponent and you can tech immediatley to follow up with some more pressure. On hit this does good damage. d/f+1_d/f+4- safe mids which on hit give you enough frames to get your mix-ups going. Also there to keep your opponent standing to allow throws to be landed. Throw- When you have trained your opponent to stand then start using throws. His throws are quite damaging and aren't to easy to spot if mixed up. Although his throws have shocking wakes afterwards, the damage they inflict is quite good. Damage - 2/3 Another area, which although decent is far from great. His juggles do reasonable damage hovering around the 60 damage mark, but they are quite unreliable and extremely difficult, forcing players to go for lesser damage but safety. His wall damage is horrible. Single hits are decent enough. Overall Rating: 15
Also his ff1+2 didn't hit grounded because it wasn't even a mid, it was actually a high lol. 3+4,2 wasn't a natural combo, it required CH. He didn't have his qcb1+2 (aka hades drop) throw, you had to use db,db1+2 for a 1+2 mixup which was slow due to imput. Also, no triple headbut throw and no stomps on grounded opponents.
@@frostyy136king is a high mid tier in tekken 7, there are like 20 chars better than him, ak is a low mid tier and worst than king; king was top tier only in tekken 1 and ak was top tier in tekken 1 and tag2, maybe tekken 6, all other tekken kings were mediocre or low mid tier
@@enenra6417 Really strong in Tekken 2 as well. Was 2nd behind Heihachi in T1, probably 4-5th in T2 (Kazuya, Wang, Bruce, Devil? IDK T2 very much), and right in line with the Changs as the strongest non-Mishima's, non-Ogre's in TTT1.
![[TAS] Tekken 5 - Dark Resurrection - Armor King (PSP)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/-mQbYGm9epc/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TAS] Tekken 5 - Dark Resurrection - Armor King (PSP)](/img/tr.png)
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #1 НАЧАЛО ПУТЕШЕСТВИЯ [Новый сезон] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/380Q7gLWGvk/mqdefault.jpg)
That F21 cracked me up. AK with his little stubby arms lol
xD
Miguel and Prototype Jack: "One of us! One of us!"
@@JunKazamaFanyeah lmfao
Everyone likes to talk about how bad Dragunov and AK were in DR and for good reasons. With that though, I think it would be fun to see Lili for once to complete the DR trio (I can give info if needed).
sure
drop the info bro
Alright. There is a lot I could say so I’ll try and stick with the more notable points. Lili was not good in DR. She was probably the best out of the 3 newcomers but that isn’t really saying much.
. One positive is of course, she had the best sidestep in the game. She could step certain things no other characters could (such as Kazuya df2). That has always been the case for her.
. Another positive is that df2 was only -7 on block so she had a safe 16f launcher. Pretty nice although it had less range than it does now and you couldn’t transition to backturn.
. Lili did have a strong low parry punish. I’m not sure if it was df2 or d3+4 but she could launch you off a low parry and get solid damage.
. b1 (her ub1 in T7/8) was kind of neat. It was 0 on hit (forcing crouch) but it was actually + on block and it launched on counter hit. It’s basically like her df3 is now but it was faster and had less range. df3 funnily enough was - on block in DR so that was weird.
. QCF2 is a neat move. It’s similar to QCF1+2 in T8. It was safe on block and on hit, it was something like +14, allowing for a guaranteed mixup (although the opponent could block). You got a launch on counter hit.
. Lili is missing a lot of moves she had now and moves she alternatively had for some inputs were worse in a majority of cases. No qcf3+4, no d3, no f4, no f2,3 no standing 3 string, no WS 1,2, she only had one terrible backturn jab and considerably more was missing.
. Lili also had almost no stance transitions. The only transitions she had iirc was b2,1 into backturn which was high high in DR (rather than high mid). I also think she didn’t have b2,1,1+2. You also had df3+4 which auto transitioned into backturn, just like now. She had zero transitions into crouch dash, you had to do it manually. Her stances are overall more limited and situational in DR.
. Her punishment was a lot worse. 2,4 only worked on counter hit so you had to use 1,2,3 as a 10 frame punish. It dealt 25 damage but it was -7 on hit and launch punishable on block. For 12f, you had 1+2 which dealt less damage than 1,2,3 but knocked down and wall splatted, as well as having a bit more range. You still had hopkick for a 15f punish with good range for a hopkick. As for while standing, all she had before 15f was WS4 which didn’t knockdown on normal hit (and you couldn’t easily cc 1+2 either due to SS1+2).
. f2,3, Lili’s long range 12f punish/combo tool just didn’t exist. She instead had f2,1+2 which was a 16f string which was unsafe and only comboed on counter hit. It was a chunky counter hit string though.
. 4,1 was not guaranteed on normal hit but 4,1,3 was guaranteed on counter hit for decent damage. 4,1,3 was also guaranteed on the side (without a counter hit) which even led to a knockdown.
. SS1+2 was -10, making it far riskier to go for than in later games. One positive though is that on coutner hit, the opponent had some standing frames so you could 1+2 for a damaging wallsplat.
. ff3 was super sluggish, only knocking down due to how laggy it was but weirdly, it was 0 on block (I think it forced crouch too). ff3,3+4 actually dealt 1/3 of your life and was also safe. Kind of a weird move in DR.
. d1,2 was not guaranteed on normal hit so if you got hit by the move, you could just duck under the second hit.
. WS2 was 18 frames and the move was overall very sluggish. If you used it mid combo, you could only really get d1,2,4 afterwards.
. Lili’s combos were overall pretty limited. With no bounds, missing moves useful for her combos and no way to effectively utilise crouch dash in combos, you had pretty limited combo routes. Her combo damage was still overall alright, especially if you could get a wall hit in (d3+4 still hurt a lot in particular) but she did not have a lot of combo flexibility.
. Lili’s wall combos were not good. She only really got one hit and her wall enders were inconsistent. ff3+4 was her main wall ender to my knowledge which did 21 damage but if the opponent didn’t hit the wall with the right timing or you messed up the execution, it just wouldn’t work. You could settle for a lower hitting wall ender but those dealt less damage and were also inconsistent. 2,4 could work as a stronger wall ender in specific scenarios but that was very, very situational.
And those were a bunch of the more notable things off the top of my head. There is a lot I can say about the character and I might have missed other notable things but that’s my main rundown. As a whole, Lili still has strong evasion and can get decent damage in the right scenarios but her moveset is overall significantly more limited in DR. She has worse frames in numerous areas, most of her stuff is easily steppable, her tracking moves have notable weaknesses, she lacks solid fast mid range tools and her combos are limited albeit with alright damage.
@@bigbangbot-SuperSqank you just wrote his whole video
thank you very much dude
No problem. 👍
Remember guys, this is this AK's first Tekken, cut him some slack
But seriously he's weird to use on retrospect.
Wasn't his first Tekken, Tekken 1 lol
Not first al all. Been here since tekken 1.
If you wanna be technical, this is technically Armor King II’s first appearance. As for Armor King as a whole, yeah, he goes back to the first game where he was very, very busted.
@@bigbangbot-SuperSqank He did write "this is _this_ AK's first Tekken", so he was definitely referring to AK2 being different than AK1 (who was super strong in all 3 of his appearances).
@@bigbangbot-SuperSqank I'm talking about AK2, Dead AK's brother
This is like if current capcom designed a grappler for tekken
Makes me wonder if lili waz any good in DR, if she sucked too, then thatd be 3 for 3 bad DR chars
I will try to cover her as well
I have a liking for Armor King and Leroy I would use them in T8, I hope the leak becomes reality
Armor King Enjoyers = giga chads
To be fair tho in older tekken games breaking throws was really hard, and the fact that he has such a good throw game makes up for him not having lows cuz the throws still crack turtles pretty well, same for drag
(3:49)
That move (Reverse Switch-Kick Tornado) is actually b+4,3. b+3 gives the classic Toll Kick. It's an aesthetically pleasing move, shame about how bad it is. Armor King himself could eat the first hit, duck the second, and punish it with Capital Punishment.
I see
thanks for the correction bro
@@mwkan772You're welcome!
Thanks for all these Tekken history lessons!
You can cancel it in Tekken 6 "b" to BT for BT mixups
That f21 range😭😭
(4:25)
Armor King doing a jump before some of his moves (Capital Punishment, moonsault, etc.) has always been a very interesting quirk of his. Does it even have any useful applications?
i don't think so lol
@@mwkan772Me, neither. I'm honestly surprised that they stuck with that odd gimmick set.
So cool character I've always liked him, well let's say he wasn't training enough in T5 or he was out of shape or something 😅
Really interesting, detailed and informative video as always man, thank you so much for this type of videos 👍👍
Or maybe he’s still getting used to fighting martial artists, since this is his first King of Iron Fist tournament.
@@watcherman222 true 👍 I forgot about this 😅😅
I can't wait to see what Armor King will be like in Tekken 8
Fun Fact: armor King the second made his debut as one of the new characters in Tekken 5 dark Resurrection.
His WS+1 is very awkward on CH because it's exactly the same as how it was in TTT1, though in TTT1 it gave guaranteed Dark Upper (CD+2) launch on the opponent's back on CH. The problem came when they changed his Dark Upper (it no longer gave the flip launch and it was now a high instead of special mid, meaning they could now just crouch under it to avoid being launched) and they forgot to change his WS+1 into a regular launcher as well lol. Crazy how they managed to make his CH WS+1 go from his most powerful launcher in TTT1 to an utter piece of shit in DR in spite of (or rather because of) being the same in both games.
Please do T5DR Lili. iirc she was also bad like AK and Dragunov.
She’s probably the best out of the DR newcomers but she is still rather lacking. She’s missing a lot of moves (including key moves), she has significantly weaker punishment and a good chunk of her frames are noticeably worse. Her combos are also quite linear and and she is quite limited/inconsistent when it comes to wall combos. She does have a few upsides like her sidestep and having a completely safe launching df2 but overall, she is a significantly more limited character than she is now.
ok
"You play Armor King? HAH. Please stop. Chenji character. You must chenji character. Armor King iszu TRESH"
Only good characters though...
Armor King
Punishment - 4/5
This is by far and foremost the strongest area of his game. He has all the tools to punish whatever comes his way.
- 1,2 punishes 8f
- 2,1 punishes 10f
- f+1+4 punishes 14f
- DU punishes 14f
- u/f+4 punishes 15f
He also has hopkick out of WS, making a good punisher for ducking throws.
Both his 8f and 10f punishment do decent damage but with the added bonus of giving him serious +frames to continue with his offense. His punishment although not the best in the game, is definetly up there.
Offense - 2/5
Absolutley piss weak. AK has nothing with which to lockdown his opponent. He have absolutley no strings that can manage such a feat, granted they are all duckable, leading to a launch. I'll give an example. Take d/f+2,1. This is one of the few and better string attacks he has, now lets look at its properties. Firstly start up frames are decent with a 14f initiation but it goes wrong when you look at its block and hit frames. Both these frames are negative. So on block he is at a disadvantage and on hit he is at a disadvantage too, but lets add one more problem to the string, the second hit is duckable. No help there. The majority of AK's movelist is all comprised of single hits i.e. d/f+1_d/f+4_b+1_b+2 etc. Whilst these moves are decent in their own right, they do not give the frames needed to further our offense. If we choose to follow up with anything we will be promptly jabbed out of it. AK's lack of a low has forced us into a situation where our mix-ups are just relied upon mids and throws. This is no way to play a character as throws are often jabbed out of or ducked and punished. All of AK's lows are punishable by a launcher (barring generic d+4), leaving us with a very poor mix-up game. As a result of this, AK has turned into a defense character, often turtling and forcing the mistake out of the opponent, it is no easy way to play a character and requires a high level of knowledge and skill to be able to win with him.
Whiff punishment - 4/5
No complaints here as he does have decent tools.
DU - Basically the whiff punisher of choice, leads to good damage
f+1+4- Is for whiffs that leave opponents in crouch, which a DU will not hit.
1+2,2 - Although DU will be the better choice this still has a use if there is a wall behind your opponent, causing a wall stun.
f+2,1 - Another one where DU should take priority but just stating it as it does do decent damage and has some reach. Good for getting wall splats.
Nothing spectacular but something do be wary of.
Wake up - 2/3
Another area where AK is half decent. His wakeups will cause havoc if you mix it up well. His tools are:
u/f+3+4- The only reason this is great is because it forces crouch on your opponent and you can tech immediatley to follow up with some more pressure. On hit this does good damage.
d/f+1_d/f+4- safe mids which on hit give you enough frames to get your mix-ups going. Also there to keep your opponent standing to allow throws to be landed.
Throw- When you have trained your opponent to stand then start using throws. His throws are quite damaging and aren't to easy to spot if mixed up. Although his throws have shocking wakes afterwards, the damage they inflict is quite good.
Damage - 2/3
Another area, which although decent is far from great. His juggles do reasonable damage hovering around the 60 damage mark, but they are quite unreliable and extremely difficult, forcing players to go for lesser damage but safety.
His wall damage is horrible.
Single hits are decent enough.
Overall Rating: 15
Im not sure that the d2 CH is guaranteed with giant swing
Also his ff1+2 didn't hit grounded because it wasn't even a mid, it was actually a high lol. 3+4,2 wasn't a natural combo, it required CH. He didn't have his qcb1+2 (aka hades drop) throw, you had to use db,db1+2 for a 1+2 mixup which was slow due to imput. Also, no triple headbut throw and no stomps on grounded opponents.
I see
Imo this is the right way to balance grapple characters, that have best throws in the game 😏
Can you cover Yoshimitsu's history? I'm playing through the old games in preparation for 8 coming out next month and he's SO BAD in the original game.
I've made 1 on tekken 4 yoshi
search tekken 4 yoshimitsu mwkan7 and scroll down until you find it
At least he has a i8 jab.
well at least we can here him grunt and roar, unlike tekken 7
also all b1 should be 14 frames fast instead of 12
so you did AK in DR maybe KING in DR please?
ok^^
Can you do kuma or paul in t5dr?
sure
I hope AK come as dlc in Tekken 8
He got leak
Can you do some Kuma videos ?
I will play kuma as one of my mains in t8
@@mwkan772 Nice but I mean one of these types of videos for Kuma
Not quite prototype Jack levels of bad😂
very close
Look how they massacred my boy
xD
I despise Armor King so it suits me well that he sucks in T5 cause those same mains T7 are absolutely braindead gimmicky af😮
skill issue
haha
sadking.
Damage monster tho
Like bruce
haha yes
I still think both things kings has beem bad to average for most of tekkem history
King and AK are pretty strong in tekken 7
ak was great in tag2 as well
AK was really strong in Tekken 1, Tekken, he was good in tekken tag 1, great in tekken 6, amazing in tekken tag 2, and average in tekken 7
@@frostyy136king is a high mid tier in tekken 7, there are like 20 chars better than him, ak is a low mid tier and worst than king; king was top tier only in tekken 1 and ak was top tier in tekken 1 and tag2, maybe tekken 6, all other tekken kings were mediocre or low mid tier
@@enenra6417 Really strong in Tekken 2 as well. Was 2nd behind Heihachi in T1, probably 4-5th in T2 (Kazuya, Wang, Bruce, Devil? IDK T2 very much), and right in line with the Changs as the strongest non-Mishima's, non-Ogre's in TTT1.
@@aidanklobuchar1798 Bruce wants to talk to you about being the strongest non Mishima in tag 1 agree with the other stuff tho
Ggs