I’m partial to the idea that Klingon antimatter reactor technology was inferior to that of the Federation but the idea of Klingon tactics relying heavily on marines and boarding tactics is very in character.
I've came under the impression. Klingons for a long time had this mentality of "If it ain't broken. Don't fix it." This is why their ships were always seen as older ships and technology. As it just worked. Though over time and being influenced by the Federation and the battles they have. They came to realize. Their shit was old and outdated. So they needed to upgrade. Also, had the mind. That a lot of old Klingon ships kept on appearing. All because the Empire was generally more likely to fight itself than deal with external threats. So it was best policy for the Chancellor to make sure the other houses didn't get their hands on better tech. As each house maintained a fleet. Thus the Klingon Defense Fleet was created. But over time, these fears kind of subsided and with threats far greater to the Empire coming from outside. The KDF was unified a bit more and the Klingon Houses felt more like fighting for a greater honor than fighting for their house. So the fleets advance in technology and power. Though this is more of my personal opinion. No, real Alpha Canon sources.
Klingon war thinking involve the following: 1) Taking out the means of mobilization of the enemy ship. (They don't destroy it unless it is of no use to them). 2) Boarding the ship using teleportation technology. (As this is cheaply the expertise of their women, it is why they are deeply valued and deemed as irreplaceable on the ship. Since men are trained to be experts in boarding tactics, the women are trained in engineering and managing the intricate technology necessary for a successful board to take place). 3) Salvage the ship to be reverse-engineered by their women. Again, why the women are trained to such extremes in engineering unlike the men. 4) Enslave the crew to help mine out materials on worlds they have conquered to advance their ability to produce more ships for combat. This also helps instill fear in the race they had just fought against which makes the premise for future wars less likely allowing them more time to advance their own technology as they reverse-engineer the enemy's. Do know this means Klingons are constantly raiding enemy ships to better enhance their own technology since they prioritize combat over many other avenues of society and their women (who are less engaged in combat) are more preoccupied in reverse-engineering or making repairs to exisitng equipment than they are in anything else. This doesn't mean they don't have scientists, but they tend to be rare but at the same time more gifted than most scientists in other species. They do have other occupations as well, but these tend to be taken up by the eldery as both a sign of disrespect for living so long, draining resources from the state and a means to regain said honor by performing admirably through one's old age.
Actually it was superior, they just didn't like the idea using up a ships limited supply of antimatter as it's weapon. It's a good way to find yourself floating in space without power while thinking how wonderful it was that you won that battle.... Just before you freeze to death.
In "Tomorrow is Yesterday" Kirk says there were 12 Constitution class ships. That didn't mean that Starfleet didn't have other classes of ships. It was probable that the Constitution class ships were just way better than anything else around at the time.
"12 like her in the fleet." Starship Class was like a 1966 Nuclear Carrier or Nuclear Sub commander proud of the elite status of the most advanced ships. Jeffries always laid it out as a aviation engineer would such as an elite group of bombers, but GR, a pilot, loved tall ship fiction so that was the flavor...a space navy like the Frigates in the 1810 era USN with lots of crappy coastal patrol ships or galleys and a dozen blue water battleships
@@STho205 Yup. All other ships in Starfleet were stuff like the Miranda or Constellation classes: similar saucer sections and warp nacelles, but no engineering section. A Constitution class was probably twice as massive as the next biggest class Starfleet could field.
@@STho205 I gleamed the exact same inference. This was Hollywood, so naturally, "star" could easily replace "capital" in describing something as important. Capital ships are the few very expensive ships that support smaller, less capable ships or massive platforms that they make other ships to simply defend. Starfleet could have scores of smaller, less capable ships, and individual colonies could even support small patrol craft. Star ships, like the Enterprise would be the leaders of fleets during time of war. Over the last half century, people started using the word "starship" for anything that supposed to travel between stars. In 1966, the term was practically unknown.
@@Paveway-chan in The Original Series the only other Starfleet ship seen was the Daedalus class, which was smaller and older than the Constitution class. The Miranda class wouldn't show up until the Kirk-era movies, where it was envisaged as a more versatile and economical compliment to the Constitution class. Like an Arleigh Burke next to a Ticonderoga. The Constellation was of the same era but would only be seen in TNG. The Constitution was definitely the best of Starfleet in the Kirk-era though. Especially in TOS it was the primary frontline starship and the pride of the fleet, and even in the movies it wouldn't be surpassed until the much larger Excelsior class came into service. It makes sense that Kirk would only mention Constitution classes, as they are the most relevant ships in service. If someone was boasting about the US Navy they would mainly point out the number of Nimitz or Gerald R. Ford class carriers, not so much the America or Wasp class ships.
That was my understanding too. The Consitution class is Starfleet's newest and shiniest toys. The D7 has been the Klingon Empire's regular workhorse ship for years, until it gets supplanted by the Bird of Prey in the Kirk-era movies. The Enterprise is just newer and more advanced.
There are fans loyal to each series. And fans loyal to games, novels, lore which exist beside or beyond each series. I'm happy that fans can accept that other fans may not readily accept all the same canon or fanon, it's all Star Trek, don't hate people for the things they love. I'm unhappy that the idiots who own (and who keep vandalizing) Star Trek have other opinions.
I can't remember if it was a sourcebook, another commentary channel, or just some forum thread, but I read somewhere that while the general design of the ships are standardized, every Klingon house makes their own, sometimes considerable modifications to those designs to suit their needs and strategy. Is the forward hardpoint a sensor dish? A torpedo launcher? A heavy disruptor? The answer is _yes._ Depending on which house the D7 belongs to.
I read that , but i have read other books real world, basically every ship even of the same class is a little different or unique in its own way . Like the b52 bomber today and its original version look identical but are completely different inside. And witb different capabilities
Yeah but DS9 is powered by fusion reactors and look at what powerful Shields and phasers weapons it has and Earth space dock powered by fusion reactors and has really powerful Shields and impulse thrusters how big it is if you could make a fusion reactor today I mean hell I would change everything with
The impulse reactor is a cold fusion reactor maybe it's hot fusion the point is it's fusion it should be able to power the Shields and phasers if we can make a fusion reactor today with today's technology and say it would cost 5 million dollars per reactor even at that high price within 20 years would be like the expanse
I think that Enterprise and Star Trek Discovery are in a separate universe than the original series deep space nine Voyager TNG Star Trek Picard is in that same universe it the Star Trek the card universe is very similar to the TNG universe it's just a little different and it flows from the universe of not the original series but Enterprise and discovery
@@thehillbillygamer2183 sorry you believe Picard and discovery are in the same universe ? And that its different from tos , tng , ds9, voy ent ,. I would like or approve of that , and the jj Abrams movies are in a different one as well . Or in the discovery and picard is the same as jj . Verse
My time in the navy has taught me that no two ships are identical even if they are the same class. (some Los Angeles subs have missiles and some do not) So it would stand to reason that some D-7's would have a recon sensor package that was dropped on later models for a torpedo launcher.
Since the original series was in the '60s I assume the Soviet Cold War was a large inspiration. The US had superior equipment but the Soviets had a massive manpower/equipment advantage. Following that I would assume the Klingon ships are inferior but there are many more of them. Maybe that's why the Romulans had to use three D7s to capture the Enterprise. Weren't there only like a dozen Constitution class vessels? And in TNG the Galaxy class was 'the best' but there was only like six to eight of them at the time.
accordign to TOS there was only 12 connies built in the first run and by the time kirk gets the Enterprise she has had a minor refit so her abilities increase. the D7 was made before the connie so loses the edge but way more of them. also that first battle could have been a D6
Mostly because the model from S1 was not available. The D7 model was the big VFX budget expense budgeted in the summer before S3, so they used it to death. Much better model than either Enterprise or the Romulan ship in S1
@@jfangm maybe, but the close up photos of the D7 model was a superior modeling job. Well it was two years after the early series models. The Klingons were just pinwheels or telemetry blips for two years.
Maybe the D7 was more formidable for being more easy and/or cheaper to produce in large numbers. Enough so that it would cause Starfleet to be more worried about being outnumbered rather then outclassed. It's rare to see many Alpha and Beta power ships take on Starfleet's front line premier ships in a 1 on 1 fight.
My thoughts exactly. The original Klingons were cast as a Communist Russia parallel. Their ideas of quantity has a quality of its own is reflected in the writing.
I'd like to second this also. Its also been said that the D7 is lighter and more manoeuvrable, potentially being able to hit and fade against the larger heavier Starfleet ships. Its also worth noting, as was said in the video, that the Constitution is Starfleet's most powerful ship class, so the D7 could likely go toe to toe with the smaller, more common ships of the fleet.
Honestly I think the constitution was also partly designed to counter the D7 as well, which is also why there is so few constitutions as well, it's a brand new ship class during tos
Star Fleet Battles is my favorite game iteration for Star Trek. My friends and I played it for almost two decades. The original D-7s had no torpedoes. That forward dish was a sensor array. The FASA Roleplaying game has a lot of wonderful information in it too. The one significant advantage the D-7 had over the Constitution-class CA was its high maneuverability.
I only played Starfleet Command, based on SFB, but absolutely loved how the Klinks are the medium-long range dancers who patiently wear down the Federation opponent … then sweep in to close range at an unexpected moment. The maneuvering and side firing arcs were so fun.
It is certainly the case in "The Enterprise Incident" that the Klingon/Romulan ships can overtake the ENTERPRISE. Kirk orders a mad dash for the neutral zone after he steals the cloaking device and it turns out that they actually need it to escape when they can't outrun their pursuers.
Agreed, in SFB the Klingon's primary heavy weapon is the Disruptor, it did less damage but fired more often than the Photon Torpedo. The Klingon ships were also more maneuverable which allowed them to keep their target in sight, and pound it into scrap.
This video is like a a chrome Lamborghini it's so shiny and beautiful that you can hardly see any scratches on it. Great video man keep up the good work
You'll have to refresh my memory, but unless the show's dialog identified the Klingon as a D7, it could have easily been a more lightly armed vessel, unless the presumption is that D7s were all they had. Later cannon established the existence of Birds of Prey; even if they weren't even a consideration for writers at the time, other ship classes are a reasonable presumption.
@@unreliablememory9687 1. The Bird-of-Prey was meant to be a Romulan ship. 2. Why would a more lightly armed vessel attack the Enterprise in the first place?
It may sound cheesy but every time I find things at a garage sail or something someone's discarding in the trash that I know I can use and often desperately need I play the scene where Spock and Kirk examine the necklace and stones from a file with earbud headphones from an audiophile and mimic/mock and adlib the script from the damn episode. When I'm running into an ATM to deposit earnings towards the end of a week I play Spock near the end of Balance of Terror. When I'm in a better a mood I might ask someone in a store "Where is it"-"Where's what ?"-"That Schmile"-"What Smile"-"That dishkusting smile everyone has on their face; I never trust a man that Schmilesz too much !!!". Dumb and silly as this may sound these things actually keep going through the day and the night. PLEASE never stop making the videos :)
Im retired US Navy. Been an avid follower of naval technology development, and the roles various classes of ships were built for. Also had all the Star Fleet Tech Manuals. Played Star Fleet Battles and the FASA STTCS , extensively. My take on the D-7 is that they were mis named or categorized by Star Fleet. Based on the various Klingon ships in Star Fleet Battles and FASA STTCS, the D 7 are much more like Destroyer's. They are the most widely built ship by the Klingon Empire, and are often found in packs of 3 through out the Star Trek TV shows and movies. They are used as patrol ships by the Klingon's quite extensively. Being the most produced ship in the NAVY. Also being heavily used as a patrol ship and often traveling in small groups (or Task Groups as the US or British Navy would call them) That They are mislabled as "BattleCruisers" by the creators of Star Trek. The D 7 much more fits the design, description, armament, ect...of a Modern Naval Destroyer. While Constitution class ships more more resemble the typical armement, protection, size and function of a Modern Naval Cruiser or Heavy Cruiser. The US Navy was the first to Build large, Fleet Destroyers. Prior to WW2 , Destroyer class vessels in modern navies of the time, small, lightly armed ships that primarily were used to escort merchant ships to protect from submarines, or run a screen using smoke and torpedeos, to give the merchants time to escape faster surface warships such as a Cruiser or Battlecruiser. The US Navy's Fletcher class Destryoer (which served on up into the 90's) were the first ;Destroyers built to be fast enough, large enough, and well armed enough to operate with the main fleet, of Crusiers, Battleships and later Fleet Carriers. The D 7 really seems to be based on the 'Fleet Destroyer' concept the US began to build at the beginning of WW2. The Fletchers, were the size of earlier and some current Crusier class ships. Werer faster than the cruisers and battleships, but carried much less armor and protection. So, basically, my take on the Klingon D7 is that Matt Jefferies probably intended for it to be called a Destoryer in Star Trek TOS. But, it was designated a Battle Crusier, to save money on needing to design and build a model of a larger class of ship, comparable in function to ENTERPRISE. I mean, after all, Matt did designate it as a "D 7". IN the 50's-early 70's. US and British Destoryers carried the single "D" designation as part of their class and hull number. Of course, I could be wrong and "D" is the equivlant of "C" in Klingon...lol...Just my take as an avid fan of Star Trek ships since the mid 70's.
@@blockmasterscott SFB was of course the basis for the greatest ST Combat Game ever, Star Trek Star Fleet Command. and Star Trek Star Fleet Command: Orion Pirates.
The shield superiority theory tracks pretty well. The Enterprises shields were shown to be more resilient in TMP after absorbing a plasma energy weapon hit from Vger, while the three Klingon K't'inga cruisers shown previously couldn't withstand it.
As much as I like the sleek designs of later, the refit Constitution class will always have a spot for me. It improves on the budgetary constraints of the original TOS model, without completely changing the look. I know a spaceship doesn't need to be aerodynamic, but there is just something about those "upgrades" that vastly improves the feel of the ship for me.
I always viewed the Klingon D-7 to be the equivalent of the Soviet era tanks: good enough, and designed to be cheaper and used en masse compared with the USS Constitution which was designed to maximize quality at the cost of being harder to build/maintain and more expensive to produce.
@@esecallum Yes, I understand that is the preferred tactic. That is consistent with my comments about Soviet tanks: they were designed to be used in groups and to win through numerical superiority, not to dominate one-on-one.
There was an old hex-based tabletop battle game put out by FASA back in the 80s. They had stats written up for hundreds of Fed, Klingon and Romulan ships. In their reconning the Constitution was very OP. It was a fair fight to pit one of them against 3 of the weakest D-7 variant.
🖖😎👍Very cool and very nicely well done and executed and informatively explained in every detail way shape and form provided on this format and subject matter on the few Battle scenarios between the Enterprise and Klingon D7 in the original series, A very nice job indeed Sir!👌.
One thing that's a possibility is that the D-7's were intended for use in groups. In the pocket TOS novel Kobayashi Maru, it is said that D-7 battlecruisers run in packs and intermesh their shields for strength. This means that, while weaker alone, in groups they are much stronger due to their ability to reinforce one other.
A couple of notes about combat at warp speeds, theoretically there is no reason why this wouldn't work, assuming the following: 1) Relativistic affects are avoided by the "cheat" of warping space. The ship is moving sub-light within its warp bubble, but the warp bubble is compressing space around the ship 2) Combat is at _massive_ distances. Since space is compressed around the ship, you would be able to "see" _really_ far. Tens of thousands of miles/km at least. Far enough that light would take measurable time (seconds, at least) to traverse, so you can react to the battle. 3) Your sensors and targeting systems also "cheat." In Star Trek, they use subspace, which effectively makes communications (and sensors) able to detect and receive data trans-light With all of the above, it works. A simple example would be a ship moving at warp downrange, laterally to you. Normally, if it's going FTL, you couldn't really observe it (or it would be a streak/line or something equally useless to target). However, if it's technically moving sub-light, it's still interacting with the physical world (radio/light bounces off of it like normal), and _your_ ship's warp field makes everything appear massively closer to you, so basically think of warp combat as both ships just being artificially closer to each other, but otherwise still apparently doing normal maneuvers (apparently to each other, that is). Now, a ship without warp capability essentially wouldn't be able to participate in this combat. The ship with warp could engage at vastly larger distances, since their warp bubble "brings everything closer," and could effectively dodge anything thrown back at it, just by moving very slightly, since it could be far enough away where the travel time of even lasers would be observable. The warp bubble allows you to "see" the laser fired from several light seconds away. Warp vs. non warp combat would be pointless, any target without warp technology could be fired upon from great distances and they wouldn't even have a warning, they would be hit at the _exact same moment_ that they could even perceive the attack.
A few thoughts here on this: 1. Enterprise is the Hero Ship and has pliot armor in abundance when needed. (Recent movies and series have unfortunately reduced this considerably and the Big-E is constantly severely damaged... especially in Nu-Trek films) 2. The Enterprise and the rest of the Constitution class were based off the early American frigates.. one of which is THE Constitution and is still in service. (The British in the War of 1812 ordered their ships to not attack one of these American Frigates unless they had a 2:1 or better advantage!) 3. Klingons are often seen operating in flights of 3. A single D7 may be at a disadvantage, but a flight of D7s should cause Starfleet grave concern, despite their Constitution class ships. (Kobyashi Maru test has waves of 3 D7s attacking, thus showing this a common Klingon strategy) All in all, a fun discussion and great video.
The "Prepare to be Boarded," threat isn't, we'll board and then fight it out man to man, it's we'll board and you will surrender your ship or we'll blow you out of space so the troop carrier is not good speculation entirely. However, I think Klingons liked to capture and take prizes so they probably carried more crew than necessary to support opposed boarding missions. They may have even considered it an effective combat tactic so I don't think you're completely wrong either. The big question I have is why don't SF ships have Marines?
I've always felt it should be that the original series battles at warp should be retconned as law not a bug. Make it that the vast improvement we see in manoeuvrability by DS9 is because of improvements in using warp at sub-light. Rewinding to TNG they weren't quite as manoeuvrable but shield tech had improved since the original series so slugging it out was more viable BUT when you go all the way back to the original series it was important to move past you opponent quickly to limit how easy you were to hit. This led to a sort of "warp jousting" as a common tactic to try to compensate for poor shielding and manoeuvrability. Enterprise obviously damages that theory but it also doesn't have any consistency with anything so there you are. Also tbh I always assumed D-7s and K'tinga were the names used across the class's development it's just that K'tinga was the Klingon designation for the ship and Starfleet didn't know that so designated it a "D7".
Or something as simple as the main antimatter reactor being required to sustain an SIF field or inertial dampers strong enough to keep the ship tearing itself apart and splattering the crew across the bulkheads under high-G maneuvers. Better, more efficient reactors = more maneuverability because you can lighten the spaceframe, increase moment arms without worrying about structural failure, etc.
@@joeswanson733 Ditto. I kinda like the idea of warp combat being standard, because that would show how advanced the Trek verse is. But I also realize that it would be nigh impossible to show on screen in any way a layman audience would be able to intuitively follow, especially when Hollywood loves visual range combat.
@@noppornwongrassamee8941 Only if you need both fighting ships to be seen in the same scene, at the same time. In TOS, they only saw enemy ships on the viewscreen, in distances of 10s of thousands of kilometers. That works just fine for 'combat at warp speeds' - the ships are never VISUALLY in range of each other at all, just sensor images on the viewscreen.
Those original Star Trek designs run circles around ships designed for modern Trek. So much more imagination and thought went into those designs, the talent of Jeffries and others are unquestionable.
Just watched "The Ultimate Computer" last night, would love to see an analysis of the battle between M-5 Enterprise vs the Lexington, Potemkin, Excalibur, and Hood, by your channel!
The youtube channel EC Henry speculated what the first klingon ship, not shown in the original revision could've looked like and even made a 3D model. It's a really good watch, if you haven't seen it yet.
I kind of feel like the federation in TOS were very much "Quality over Quantity" while the Klingons preferred large numbers of squishier more disposable ships. Least that's how I mentally explain the difference in strength of the two ships in the original show.
If 2267 Starfleet only had 12 ships as sophisticated and sturdy as the Enterprise and the D7 could nearly match them...yet they made enough D7s to sell or trade them to the Romulans: Then most of Starfleet, the Federation merchant class and the member states' own space navy would be in a major disadvantage in confronting the Klingon squadrons. Federation space in S1pt2, S2-3 was shown as so vast it would take thousands of ships to service and protect the expanse. Even United Earth in the first 13 episodes couldn't have been serviced by a small fleet shown in the series.
@@STho205 1. The Constitution Class has been shown easily destroying Klingon D7s, so no, it's not a close match. 2. The Constitution Class is not the only class of Federation ship. Far from it. 3. The _Star Fleet Technical Manual_ indicates the United Federation of Planets expanded the Constitution Class to 150 ships, compared to the United Earth's 12.
As the earlier D6 has the same basic hull of the D7, except with less powerful weaponry & slower warp drive, the Klingon battle cruiser, seen in ENT, was most likely to represent a D6.
Well done video. I think there are some things that would support the Starfleet's worry over the D7, and the Klingon fleet in general, regardless of the Constitution's seeming superiority. 1. There are only about a dozen Constitutions in Starfleet by the beginning of TOS; there's also mention that Starship Captains are a breed apart from other spaceship captains in Starfleet. With the idea that most other Starfleet ships are of a lesser class, and with the reasonable presumption that the D7 is more numerous, it follows that Starfleet has reason to worry. 2. We know from 'Day of the Dove' that the D7 has roughly the same crew complement as Enterprise, that the Klingon fleet is more combat oriented than Starfleet, and that, presumably, their ships have a higher proportion of combat crew aboard; it seems reasonable to assume that a D7 Captain could be confident of victory against a comparably crewed Starfleet ship, given the seeming advantage of their position. 3. We also know that Klingons didn't follow certain conventions with regards to treatment of civilians, while occupying planets. This would also give Starfleet pause, as Klingon forces would likely show less discrimination in who they targeted, if it came down to a wider armed conflict.
I is late but I have a feeling the fear of the D-7 has to do with cloaking device, which would allow for the type of potent alpha strike needed to take on a ship that would otherwise outdo it in straight on combat like the Constitution class - this ability to effectively jump and destroy a high profile ship like a Constitution and get away with it potentiallymultiple times is what I would figure is why Starlfeet pisses themselves seeing it
I'm thinking that Kirk's decision to wait to fire the torpedoes after the D-7 passed them was because the rear shields were weaker than the forward or side shields. Great analysis!!!
One of the older ship to ship games for Star Trek was SFB or Starfleet Battles, originally made before the movies. The original layout of starships was everyone had phasors, some better then others, ranked 1, 2 and the short range point defense type 3's. Only exception was a race was able to make a gatling phasor, basically a type 3 with 4x faster firing. Starbase's had the massive type 4, to big for a starships. That said all races had different heavy weapons like Disruptors, Photon Torpedoes, Plasma. Disruptors were fast firing but lower yield roughly 50% the power of a normal Photon. Photon Torpedoes were slow but a bit more versatile including self detonation for area effect. Both weapons had over load options, reduced their range by a lot, but pack a punch.
All of this jives with the FASA RPG from the 80s. They published “ship recognition manuals” for the three major powers and they also imagined the D-7A as being no match for the Constitution 1 on 1.
I think the reason that Klingons don’t have photos is that the Klingon fleet is so large and there simply aren’t enough torpedoes, kind of like Quantum torpedoes for the Federation.
TNG had warp combat, they did several times against the Borg. In DS9, several K'Tingas fired red disruptor pulses from the "torpedo launcher" in the Klingon Seige of DS9 "Way of the Warrior" Part II
Really, not enough information to draw reliable conclusions from. Furthermore, the basic D-7 design seems to have REALLY stood the test of time; so, I suspect that it's a good design, and, one that takes upgrades well. One advantage that the Connie really does SEEM to have is greater firing arcs. The Klingons seem to have the bulk of their weapons facing-forward. [which seems to be just a part of their ethos: 'attack aggressively and win; rear-mounted weapons are for people who run-away']
On Enterprise and the Klingon ship models and having Photon Toros, the former can be explained on how Klingons kept the same model of ships for centuries with tweaks and improvements. For the torps, those were primitive ones that didn't have the capabilities of the 23rd and 24 the century warheads and Klingon doctrine wouldn't use them until they got better versions of the Photon Torpedo in the latter 23rd century.
It has been established that a warp bubble can be temporarily kept in balance outside of the original generator but it would fade over time. However nothing is stated as to what keeps this warp bubble going ? I'm using the data from saucer separation. Keeping a temporary warp bubble would explain how ships can launch torpedoes while at warp , and the projectile does not simply pop into regular space outside of the ship's immediate field of effect.
photon torpedoes are fitted with a 'warp sustainer engine' essentially a mirco scale warp coil using a little of the torpedoes matter/anitmatter warhead to fuel it, enough to keep a torpedo launched at warp speed at warp speed for a little while, eventually it will slow to sublight speeds
Kudos to you, young man, for referencing FASA as well as Star Fleet Battles! Yes, the D-7A was no match for the Constitution class in FASA. They’re a more balanced match in SFB.
In James Blish adaption of the Errand of Mercy episode the author decided that it was a scout ship that first attacked the Enterprise, hoping for a lucky shot before the shields came up. I've always liked that idea. In the later episode I think two factors come into play, one you have a klingon commander who's improvising after his original plan failed, the second was that he wasn't a very good commander. First he was hesitant after hitting the Enterprise a few times, either calling for instructions or seeing if he had done enough damage for the ship to blow up on its own. Then when he attacked again and the Enterprise shields took the hit thanks to the warp engine being online again, he didn't notice the increase in power. I think he was using all of his ships power on the weapons, leaving the shields on low power. After all even if the Enterprise could have gotten off a shot it would have been too weak to do any damage. He's heading away from the Enterprise, probably going to swing around for another pass, putting him in perfect firing position for the photon torpedos to hit his engineering section. He probably didn't last long after this mission which from the klingon perspective was a complete disaster. Not only did the Federation learn about the crystals, the commander made mistake after mistake in the battle. I often wonder if he ever realized how the Enterprise got her power back. As to the opening on the front of the D7, I always thought this was a shuttle bay as it reminded me of the ones on the Discovery in 2001 A Space Oddesey.
I've seen one of the two actual TOS D-7 models built by AMT for the series, and there is no way it is a shuttle bay as it has a projector style device inside the cylindrical alcove. The shuttle bay is in the back of the raised superstructure on the engineering hull as you can clearly see the sliding doors on both the original models as well as the more detailed K'Tinga model built for TMP.
I doubt the author of the episode put this much thought into it, but here's my take as to why the Klingon commander did what he did: The Klingons have discovered there are dilithium crystals everywhere on these planets (or at least one of them). They've also discovered that there is unrest between the two cultures. If this unrest continues (or better yet, breaks out into war), then the Federation will be too busy trying to handle it to notice the Klingons trading weapons for crystals (or just going to a remote area and picking them up). When they discover that Enterprise has been given the mission to transport the bride to the other planet, they seize their opportunity. Knowing simply destroying the Enterprise in combat (not at all a sure thing) would cause both sides to *hate* the Klingons (thus removing all chance of getting the crystals), they decide on a more sneaky tactic. Making sure their man is on board, his job is to find a way to destroy the ship (also not an easy task). However, Kirk surprisingly orders the ship to proceed to the other planet on impulse only (in response to the envoy's request for time to tame the beast, er, bride). Now the saboteur has time to consider the best plan and decides on the warp sabotage method. This at least would be a believable accident. The saboteur makes sure the Klingon Commander knows this plan before enacting it (he may have needed permission). The Klingon Commander knows when the saboteur kills himself, so its time to see if he did his job. Enterprise doesn't take the bait, but it doesn't go to warp, either. The Commander quickly realizes that Enterprise is effectively crippled and now easy prey for his ship. He still has the issue of them recognizing the Klingons were responsible for the destruction, so he'd prefer not to do that if he could avoid it. However, _capturing_ the ship would be a nice coup for the Klingons. Thus, he whittles down Enterprise's shields until they're almost non-existent. Then he backs off to give them time to reconsider surrender knowing the next shot will destroy them. If they don't surrender, he's hoping it'll take time to determine it was the Klingons who destroyed Enterprise. Unfortunately for him, our heroes have figured out how to get their warp power and drive back and successfully do so in time for their next attack. Needless to say, this takes the Klingon Commander completely by surprise and gives Enterprise a nice opportunity for some photon torpedo retribution. They get a bit of a lucky hit (as can be gleamed from the exclamation of Sulu and Chekov) which significantly damages the D-7. The author obviously didn't research Star Trek Klingon lore as: a) this is after "The Enterprise Incident", so they should have a working cloak b) they're able to do all of this with the Origanian Treaty in place? The former would make the lack of detecting the D-7 understandable, but the latter should prevent them from attacking at all. Oh, well.
12:20 In the original series era, that hollow area at the bow of the D-7 was supposed to be the Klingon deflector dish. Also, in the Animated series, the Klingon D-7 did fire torpedoes from the bow.
I also feel like the Constitution Class was, for at least a decade, simply a game-winning ship design. It was a revelation in teams of firepower, speed and power-plant performance. It was like the HMS Dreadnought of its age; once introduced it made all other ships in its class obsolete. Its not that the D-7 was simply inferior due to Klingon shortcomings, rather, the Constitution Class was a revelation when introduced. Decades ahead thanks to a revolutionary design that married a number of advanced dispirit systems that individually could give a smaller Federation Starship an advantage, but when combined into one ship it was heads and shoulders superior to those that proceeded it. The K'Tinga was the answer, and it seems a really good one, for the Constitution Class was pretty much done within even 10-15 years of a major refit, and the Excelsior Class took its place relatively quickly, while the K-Tinga soldiered on for the next 75 years.
Except Dreadnought wasn't really that revolutionary. The U.S. and Germany already had similar ships on the slipways when Dreadnought was drawn up, she just launched first. Dreadnought was really just a product of her time, not ahead of it. A better comparison would be USS Nautilus or USS Los Angeles.
And the Excelsior and Miranda classes stay in service for more than 70 years. Both are still in use during the Dominion war. Feels like the Excelsior is just big enough to fit more modern tech and the Miranda is cheap enough to keep them running. (I know that behind the scenes they didn't want to put the original Enterprise in mass in battles to keep it's legacy) And that long of a use isn't too uncommon. The first Nimitz class carrier was commissioned in 1975 and they are supposed to be replaced by the Ford class. Which is ongoing, but so far only 2 of 10 ships are done and the 3rd is supposed to be commissioned in 2028, with 7 more to follow. So the old carriers are surely in use for another 20-30 years until fully replaced. Or the B-52 bomber, original designed in 1952, still in service, most of them B-52H which originated in 1961, and they are expected to stay in service into the 2050s, giving the whole design about a century of use.
Waiting until the Klingon ship had closed in before firing torpedoes is not necessarily due to the possibility of the D-7 evading them, but because the longer the torpedoes have to travel to get to their target (including maneuvering to hit an evading ship), the more of their precious antimatter-matter warhead reactants they have to consume and therefore less effect if too much is used.
Maybe I'm oversimplifying this; but, i think if a ship was in combat with only maneuvering thrusters against an enemy with impulse engines, it would be at a severe disadvantage. So, this leads to a ship with impulse engines engaging with a ship using warp engines... Then throw in the superior power generation of anti matter vs impulse in providing power for various functions....
If impulse is sub light speed in normal space, how do they interact with warped subspace when under warp drive. If impulse is FTL, which it really has to be because of how it is often used in several scripts all the way to the movies, then since warp is a different physical dimension phase of space...again how do they interact? However in Star Trek impulse was prop plane speed and warp was supersonic jet speed. Warp factors was Mach. Therefore no space and time dilation effects. We all realize that.
I feel that the tension with the Klingon appearances is even if the Enterprise won. Even if the D7 was woefully outmatched? It is still a federation loss, as that incident will snowball into a resumption of full scale hostilities (minus the organians getting involved and putting their foot down on both their necks.) It is a very real fear born out of the cold war.... Which is sadly VERY relevant given current events.
Kinda funny how the Constitution class is presented as this amazing ship during the original series, but without the Enterprise’s plot armor, almost every other ship of the class ends up with a terrible fate. Anyway, great vid like always!
To be fair most of those ships encounters insanely powerful entities or things starfleet had no way of planning for. Or in some cases just bad luck and the Enterprise had the benefit know what they were dealing with.
They were all on missions where Federation technology just wasn't ready to protect them. I get wanting to use your expensive warships for diplomacy and exploration, but it's honestly not a good investment to send them out into the dangerous galaxy filled with threats you cannot even imagine. They're supposed to be used to offset their costs by contributing to the Federation's scientific understanding and diplomatic connections when not used to defend its borders, not get blown up by space monsters and thus be unable to defend said borders.
We see the model in at least two other episodes - albeit without conflict - in unremastered TOS - Trouble with Tribbles, Day of the Dove. I also wouldn't say it's a vastly inferior ship; 2:1 should be well more than adequate. Note that SFB is still in print, FASA isn't, and almost everything FASA added has been overwritten.
They blew it up in Day of the Dove, threw the surviving crew in the brig and fought them to the un-death through the corridors with sabres. Contrived or not...that's conflict.
Excellent breakdown and analysis. One of my favorite lines in Star Trek VI was "Never been this close before..." I also remember the lines from Star Trek III "..federation battecruiser..." "....what are they waiting for? They outgun me 10 to 1..." I think this gives us the most information about many Klingon ships and their strategies. A Bird of Prey was really only a threat to a 'Ship of the Line' if you couldn't hit it. The Enterprise repelled 5 or 6 torpedo hits before having its shields drained to the point that the hull was compromised. Two Klingon torpedo hits was sufficient to severely damage Kronos 1, which was their D-7 flagship. In every successful Klingon battle, we see swarm-tactics used to keep consistent hits to their shields, on a single ship, at a minimum while raining maximun destruction on their target. It's only when the Enterprise focuses all of its attetion on a single ship that the ship is easily dispatched.
Check me if I'm wrong here, but wasn't the Enterprise in a Red Alert status, at full battle stations, with shields at maximum, expecting an attack, whereas Kronos 1 was not on a war footing, with shields completely down, with its most vulnerable area at literally point blank to the Enterprise (and IKS Dakronh...). Let's not forget that Kronos 1's officer corps was more than a little "inconvenienced"...
@@allennelson3881 You're mistaken. Enterprise was not at Red Alert because they were panicking about where the topedoes had come from and in the background we kept hearing Checkov suggest "Shields Up Captain?"
Was nice to hear the old FASA "Starship Tactical Combat Simulator" being referenced. I spent many an hour in my late teens and early 20's playing the FASA game, and Starfleet Battles, originally from Task Force Games.
There's one other possible indicator that the D7 carries cryo-pods. In TNG: The Emissary (S2E2) the Ktinga class T'Ong, the successor to the D7, has been sent on a deep strike operation using cryo-pods to keep the crew alive while they proceed slowly at sub-light into Federation space. There's no comment that she was specially fitted out for that operation, so it would infer said pods are standard issue.
There were blueprints drawn up of these ships during the production of the original series. In fact, the hobby model of Klingon battle cruiser was made directly from these blueprints. The parts were cut out of wood, and traced by a machine to produce the master model pieces at 1/3 the size. Normally, these wooden prototype pieces are discarded, but AMT assembled them to make the studio miniature. The Klingon ship was armed with "Disruptors" on the warp engine nacelles and "Phaser" on the underside of the bulb and on the engineering hull. It did not have "Photon Torpedoes," and the opening on the bulb is marked "Sensor." The blueprints differentiate the D-6 from the D-7 by stating that the later ship had 2 more phasers on the underside of the engineering hull. I can only speculate that Matt Jeffries was using the old English ship design nomenclature where the basic hull was given a letter and each subsequent revision of the ship's layout was given a number. I regard everything that came later, including the 1979 movie, as "fan fiction." The underside of the Enterprise saucer is shaped like an advanced spike nozzle, which would make it a fully atmospheric ground to space platform. Likewise, the forward section of the Klingon BC is a lifeboat, in case things go wrong in the engineering hull. As beautiful as the studio models were for that movie, they do not contain the fantasy I gleam from looking at Matt Jeffries' work. Having a photon torpedo fire from the bulb on the front of the Klingon ship and the way the movie Enterprise flattens the Enterprise saucer makes the designs defy rational explanation.
0:25 In the second season Episode "Friday's Child" Scotty had to battle past a Klingon warship to rescue Kirk, Spock and McCoy who were stranded on Kapella IV. We didn't see it on screen, but it did occur.
My favorite Klingon "D7" action scene is the beginning of the first star trek movie when three battle cruisers attempt an attack on the voyager "viger" cloud. The music that goes along with the attack and the sound of the photon torpedos is outstanding.
If i recall the novelization of the Errand of Mercy episode, the Klingon ship was identified as a scout vessel or other light ship that elected to go out in a blaze of glory.
In Errand of Mercy, when told a fleet of Klingon ships is in the area and may suddenly appear over Organia at any moment, Mr. Sulu responds, " We'll handle them sir!" Kirk quickly counters ordering Sulu that if a fleet appears they're to, "...get out of here!" The implication is that Sulu, an experienced combat veteran, was confident enough in the superiority of the Enterprise over even a fleet of Klingon vessels that he was prepared to go toe to toe with them! Kirk clearly thought differently was not prepared to take the risk, and I agree. But Sulu's confidents implies the Constitution class was a ship to be reckoned with.
There was plenty of narrative in TOS that the Connie class starship was special, with the Enterprise being one of the 12 of her kind, she was ordained with Captain Kirk to accomplish the 5 year exploration mission and was best fit to defend the UFP when the situation called for it. Truely was the Queen of the Galaxy at that time...
One thing I recalled and I have the old Starfleet Tech manual on it as well. There were a total of 12 Constitution class starships, these new line of ships were each sent out on five year missions to explore. Yes, there were other classes, but at that time the Constitution was a new class. Out of the 12, only 4 (I could be wrong here) returned, the Enterprise being the first to return. Thus they used her insignia in Starfleet to this day And yes... despite the naysaysers on this... Each ship had their own Delta
In my head canon, the disparity between D7 and Constitution class simply boiled down to simple reason - reactor. On paper, the D7 have the firepower and defense to rival the Constitution class, however, Klingon reactor is at least about a decade behind Starfleet, and D7 reactor simply cannot supply enough power to all of her system in the way the Constitution class can, and as Klingon commander prefer a more aggressive combat style, most commander prefer to maximize power to propulsion and disruptor to strike fast and hard, leaving dangerously low power level for their shield, which Starfleet gladly take advantage of. It would not be until the K'tinga class that Klingon ship would have the reactor system that can keep up with Federation ships.
i remember reading trek fan stuf and basically klingons have more powerful weaponry like disruptors and torpedoes but starfleet has better sensors, shields, engine endurance
there's also the factor that the klingons are a lot less adverse to casualties (HONOURABLE DEATHS) and hull-tanking than federation ships so their shields in and of themselves were likely to be less advanced and far less of a priority than maximising the attack value of their initial hits, if you can kill the targets key systems early on then you don't need your shields. The issue to this being the feds built their ships like turtles with a spiky shell and a damnable "do-anything-dish" plus torpedo spitting contraption mounted fairly securely under their chins.
On a one on one engagement, perhaps Starfleet had nothing to fear, provided it was the Enterprise or that class of ship. Even with shields down and no weapons, the Enterprise with it's plot armour, is still very formidable.
In the book, “The Making of Star Trek.” It is stated that both phasers and photon torpedoes are energy weapons. The name photon torpedo comes from the concept of matter and anti-matter being temporarily held separate, in a magneto photon force field, until detonation. It isn’t until Star Trek 2 that torpedoes are shown to have a physical casing. As far as maneuvering is concerned, it is strongly implied that the Klingon ship is using warp drive. It is not just a matter of turn rate but the fact that the Klingon ship can move hundreds of times faster. “The Making of Star Trek” book also reveals that holodecks and saucer separation were conceptualized for TOS Enterprise, but in much simpler form. The book also states that Romulans were originally intended to be much more honorable than the Klingons, who were intended to be absolute villians.
I have a theory of a sort this is my theory the term battle cruiser is a bit of a mist nomer because the ship usually pops up with 3 to 1 constitution and in the novelization of star trek the motion picture pinned by Jean ronberry he refers to the enterprise as a heavy cruiser but the term is just a stop position which will give you an idea that there could be something powerful but corner what he had said They could have been called an Explorer or a battleship due toIt's power level and we know that in a later star trek's like in TNG the klingon main ship is called an attack cruiser but it appears to have a possession more like that of a heavy cruiser
A quick note: the Klingon vessel in Errand of Mercy used neither phasers nor disruptors, but "magnetic pulses." Evidently D-7 ships come with various weapon and equipment arrangements. This ship evidently also had a cloaking device similar to the Romulans, as it appeared just before its attack. I would theorize that it was optimized for just such sneak attacks, but the magnetic pulses don't have the same deadly firepower as a Romulan plasma torpedo. Kirk responds not with standard phasers, but "proximity blasts," a version of phaser fire that explodes in an area-of-effect, much as he did against his earlier Romulan foe. Presumably proximity blasts are weaker in overall effect, but cover a larger area. So the "sneak attack" version of the D-7 has weaker shields. The D-7 encountered in the Elassian system showed no signs of having a cloak, and definitely used disruptors. I would speculate that this D-7 was optimized for "slugging" rather than sneak attacks. This makes sense as the Enterprise had already shown its resilience against the sneak-attack version, so the Klingons tried a different approach. In human ship classes, a "heavy cruiser" is optimized for firepower and durability, while "battlecruisers" trade armor and firepower for greater speed and maneuverability. I believe these designations further explain the difference in the vessels. Finally, the Klingons self-admittedly have resource-poor systems, while the Federation evidently is quite prosperous. So Klingon vessels no doubt cut corners, leading to less resilient ships.
As we saw in _Balance of Terror,_ TOS Phasers have a discrete "proximity blast' setting, which fires projectile bolts - not unlike Defiant's pulse phasers - that explode in space. Due to budget limitations, the photon torpedo used the same special effect as this phaser until _Elaan of Troyus._ Either way, the Enterprise fired no beams in _Errand of Mercy,_ remastered version included. Regarding torpedoes, antimatter will explode if allowed to touch anything - _including_ the container it's in. To prevent this, photon torpedoes use powerful magnetic traps to contain their antimatter warheads. If you can't generate the power to charge the magnetic trap, you can't fire torpedoes without blowing yourself up. As for warp maneuvers, the Enterprise's Warp Engines work by manipulating gravity, which is literally a warp in space/time. The Warp Drive can be used for both forwards and _backwards_ travel at FTL speeds, and allows for far tighter maneuvers than possible under impulse power.
I believe the remastered version showed the D-7 firing torpedoes from the front tube in the errand of mercy & the Enterprise incident on the view screen from a distance according to the model kit I built that hole is supposed to be a deflector /antenna not a photon torpedo tube
Wow, it's nice to see so many people here like me that played Starfleet Battles. Boy, we had some truly vicious battles in the early 80s! I still have my manuals, SSDs, and counters!
Want to buy me a coffee so I can keep working on this stuff? Hit the super-thanks button above and send me a special comment which I WILL reply to!
I’m partial to the idea that Klingon antimatter reactor technology was inferior to that of the Federation but the idea of Klingon tactics relying heavily on marines and boarding tactics is very in character.
klingon tech as shown is usually older stuff.
I've came under the impression. Klingons for a long time had this mentality of "If it ain't broken. Don't fix it." This is why their ships were always seen as older ships and technology. As it just worked. Though over time and being influenced by the Federation and the battles they have. They came to realize. Their shit was old and outdated. So they needed to upgrade.
Also, had the mind. That a lot of old Klingon ships kept on appearing. All because the Empire was generally more likely to fight itself than deal with external threats. So it was best policy for the Chancellor to make sure the other houses didn't get their hands on better tech. As each house maintained a fleet. Thus the Klingon Defense Fleet was created.
But over time, these fears kind of subsided and with threats far greater to the Empire coming from outside. The KDF was unified a bit more and the Klingon Houses felt more like fighting for a greater honor than fighting for their house. So the fleets advance in technology and power.
Though this is more of my personal opinion. No, real Alpha Canon sources.
@@Qardo to be honest, I would rather have a fans opinion then whatever the studios think these days.
I like your way.
Klingon war thinking involve the following:
1) Taking out the means of mobilization of the enemy ship. (They don't destroy it unless it is of no use to them).
2) Boarding the ship using teleportation technology. (As this is cheaply the expertise of their women, it is why they are deeply valued and deemed as irreplaceable on the ship. Since men are trained to be experts in boarding tactics, the women are trained in engineering and managing the intricate technology necessary for a successful board to take place).
3) Salvage the ship to be reverse-engineered by their women. Again, why the women are trained to such extremes in engineering unlike the men.
4) Enslave the crew to help mine out materials on worlds they have conquered to advance their ability to produce more ships for combat. This also helps instill fear in the race they had just fought against which makes the premise for future wars less likely allowing them more time to advance their own technology as they reverse-engineer the enemy's.
Do know this means Klingons are constantly raiding enemy ships to better enhance their own technology since they prioritize combat over many other avenues of society and their women (who are less engaged in combat) are more preoccupied in reverse-engineering or making repairs to exisitng equipment than they are in anything else. This doesn't mean they don't have scientists, but they tend to be rare but at the same time more gifted than most scientists in other species.
They do have other occupations as well, but these tend to be taken up by the eldery as both a sign of disrespect for living so long, draining resources from the state and a means to regain said honor by performing admirably through one's old age.
Actually it was superior, they just didn't like the idea using up a ships limited supply of antimatter as it's weapon. It's a good way to find yourself floating in space without power while thinking how wonderful it was that you won that battle.... Just before you freeze to death.
In "Tomorrow is Yesterday" Kirk says there were 12 Constitution class ships. That didn't mean that Starfleet didn't have other classes of ships. It was probable that the Constitution class ships were just way better than anything else around at the time.
"12 like her in the fleet."
Starship Class was like a 1966 Nuclear Carrier or Nuclear Sub commander proud of the elite status of the most advanced ships.
Jeffries always laid it out as a aviation engineer would such as an elite group of bombers, but GR, a pilot, loved tall ship fiction so that was the flavor...a space navy like the Frigates in the 1810 era USN with lots of crappy coastal patrol ships or galleys and a dozen blue water battleships
@@STho205
Yup. All other ships in Starfleet were stuff like the Miranda or Constellation classes: similar saucer sections and warp nacelles, but no engineering section. A Constitution class was probably twice as massive as the next biggest class Starfleet could field.
@@STho205 I gleamed the exact same inference. This was Hollywood, so naturally, "star" could easily replace "capital" in describing something as important. Capital ships are the few very expensive ships that support smaller, less capable ships or massive platforms that they make other ships to simply defend. Starfleet could have scores of smaller, less capable ships, and individual colonies could even support small patrol craft. Star ships, like the Enterprise would be the leaders of fleets during time of war. Over the last half century, people started using the word "starship" for anything that supposed to travel between stars. In 1966, the term was practically unknown.
@@Paveway-chan in The Original Series the only other Starfleet ship seen was the Daedalus class, which was smaller and older than the Constitution class. The Miranda class wouldn't show up until the Kirk-era movies, where it was envisaged as a more versatile and economical compliment to the Constitution class. Like an Arleigh Burke next to a Ticonderoga. The Constellation was of the same era but would only be seen in TNG.
The Constitution was definitely the best of Starfleet in the Kirk-era though. Especially in TOS it was the primary frontline starship and the pride of the fleet, and even in the movies it wouldn't be surpassed until the much larger Excelsior class came into service. It makes sense that Kirk would only mention Constitution classes, as they are the most relevant ships in service. If someone was boasting about the US Navy they would mainly point out the number of Nimitz or Gerald R. Ford class carriers, not so much the America or Wasp class ships.
That was my understanding too. The Consitution class is Starfleet's newest and shiniest toys. The D7 has been the Klingon Empire's regular workhorse ship for years, until it gets supplanted by the Bird of Prey in the Kirk-era movies. The Enterprise is just newer and more advanced.
I'm so glad that there are such loyal fans of the original series! Excellent video!
There are fans loyal to each series. And fans loyal to games, novels, lore which exist beside or beyond each series. I'm happy that fans can accept that other fans may not readily accept all the same canon or fanon, it's all Star Trek, don't hate people for the things they love.
I'm unhappy that the idiots who own (and who keep vandalizing) Star Trek have other opinions.
I can't remember if it was a sourcebook, another commentary channel, or just some forum thread, but I read somewhere that while the general design of the ships are standardized, every Klingon house makes their own, sometimes considerable modifications to those designs to suit their needs and strategy. Is the forward hardpoint a sensor dish? A torpedo launcher? A heavy disruptor? The answer is _yes._ Depending on which house the D7 belongs to.
I read that , but i have read other books real world, basically every ship even of the same class is a little different or unique in its own way . Like the b52 bomber today and its original version look identical but are completely different inside. And witb different capabilities
Yeah but DS9 is powered by fusion reactors and look at what powerful Shields and phasers weapons it has and Earth space dock powered by fusion reactors and has really powerful Shields and impulse thrusters how big it is if you could make a fusion reactor today I mean hell I would change everything with
The impulse reactor is a cold fusion reactor maybe it's hot fusion the point is it's fusion it should be able to power the Shields and phasers if we can make a fusion reactor today with today's technology and say it would cost 5 million dollars per reactor even at that high price within 20 years would be like the expanse
I think that Enterprise and Star Trek Discovery are in a separate universe than the original series deep space nine Voyager TNG Star Trek Picard is in that same universe it the Star Trek the card universe is very similar to the TNG universe it's just a little different and it flows from the universe of not the original series but Enterprise and discovery
@@thehillbillygamer2183 sorry you believe Picard and discovery are in the same universe ? And that its different from tos , tng , ds9, voy ent ,. I would like or approve of that , and the jj Abrams movies are in a different one as well . Or in the discovery and picard is the same as jj . Verse
My time in the navy has taught me that no two ships are identical even if they are the same class. (some Los Angeles subs have missiles and some do not) So it would stand to reason that some D-7's would have a recon sensor package that was dropped on later models for a torpedo launcher.
Upgrades.
I can totally see the KDF recalling ships for overhauls and upgrades over time, or equipping later built ships somewhat differently.
The Old Star Trek animated TV show from the '70s had some epic D-7 vs. Enterprise battles.
British engineers
What I love about TOS and TMP is that you feel the weight of the ships by how slow and methodical their movements are
Since the original series was in the '60s I assume the Soviet Cold War was a large inspiration. The US had superior equipment but the Soviets had a massive manpower/equipment advantage. Following that I would assume the Klingon ships are inferior but there are many more of them. Maybe that's why the Romulans had to use three D7s to capture the Enterprise. Weren't there only like a dozen Constitution class vessels? And in TNG the Galaxy class was 'the best' but there was only like six to eight of them at the time.
accordign to TOS there was only 12 connies built in the first run and by the time kirk gets the Enterprise she has had a minor refit so her abilities increase. the D7 was made before the connie so loses the edge but way more of them.
also that first battle could have been a D6
Mostly because the model from S1 was not available. The D7 model was the big VFX budget expense budgeted in the summer before S3, so they used it to death.
Much better model than either Enterprise or the Romulan ship in S1
Beat me to it. Here's your thumbs-up. 👍followed by an emoji one.
@@STho205
I actually think the Romulan BoP is a better design.
@@jfangm maybe, but the close up photos of the D7 model was a superior modeling job. Well it was two years after the early series models. The Klingons were just pinwheels or telemetry blips for two years.
Maybe the D7 was more formidable for being more easy and/or cheaper to produce in large numbers. Enough so that it would cause Starfleet to be more worried about being outnumbered rather then outclassed. It's rare to see many Alpha and Beta power ships take on Starfleet's front line premier ships in a 1 on 1 fight.
My thoughts exactly. The original Klingons were cast as a Communist Russia parallel. Their ideas of quantity has a quality of its own is reflected in the writing.
I'd like to second this also. Its also been said that the D7 is lighter and more manoeuvrable, potentially being able to hit and fade against the larger heavier Starfleet ships. Its also worth noting, as was said in the video, that the Constitution is Starfleet's most powerful ship class, so the D7 could likely go toe to toe with the smaller, more common ships of the fleet.
Honestly I think the constitution was also partly designed to counter the D7 as well, which is also why there is so few constitutions as well, it's a brand new ship class during tos
Makes sense. Wolfpack hit and fade tactics very closely mirror the ww2 battles with submarines, which seem to be a major inspiration for ToS doctrine.
starfleet had other capable ships we just don't see them.
Star Fleet Battles is my favorite game iteration for Star Trek. My friends and I played it for almost two decades. The original D-7s had no torpedoes. That forward dish was a sensor array. The FASA Roleplaying game has a lot of wonderful information in it too. The one significant advantage the D-7 had over the Constitution-class CA was its high maneuverability.
I only played Starfleet Command, based on SFB, but absolutely loved how the Klinks are the medium-long range dancers who patiently wear down the Federation opponent … then sweep in to close range at an unexpected moment. The maneuvering and side firing arcs were so fun.
It is certainly the case in "The Enterprise Incident" that the Klingon/Romulan ships can overtake the ENTERPRISE. Kirk orders a mad dash for the neutral zone after he steals the cloaking device and it turns out that they actually need it to escape when they can't outrun their pursuers.
Agreed, in SFB the Klingon's primary heavy weapon is the Disruptor, it did less damage but fired more often than the Photon Torpedo. The Klingon ships were also more maneuverable which allowed them to keep their target in sight, and pound it into scrap.
My favorite ship in SFB was the Fed Heavy Carrier. Man, I loved that ship.
Phew this was a long one, but I learned a lot from this - there are a few mistakes, feel free to try to spot them :P.
This video is like a a chrome Lamborghini it's so shiny and beautiful that you can hardly see any scratches on it. Great video man keep up the good work
Resurrected! I’m so damn happy you’re doing these again I wouldn’t dare challenge any mistake just a simple thank you will do!
You'll have to refresh my memory, but unless the show's dialog identified the Klingon as a D7, it could have easily been a more lightly armed vessel, unless the presumption is that D7s were all they had. Later cannon established the existence of Birds of Prey; even if they weren't even a consideration for writers at the time, other ship classes are a reasonable presumption.
@@unreliablememory9687
1. The Bird-of-Prey was meant to be a Romulan ship.
2. Why would a more lightly armed vessel attack the Enterprise in the first place?
@Idazmi7 Again, if I'm not mistaken, Klingon ships designated birds of Prey were refenced in ST:Enterprise.
It may sound cheesy but every time I find things at a garage sail or something someone's discarding in the trash that I know I can use and often desperately need I play the scene where Spock and Kirk examine the necklace and stones from a file with earbud headphones from an audiophile and mimic/mock and adlib the script from the damn episode. When I'm running into an ATM to deposit earnings towards the end of a week I play Spock near the end of Balance of Terror. When I'm in a better a mood I might ask someone in a store "Where is it"-"Where's what ?"-"That Schmile"-"What Smile"-"That dishkusting smile everyone has on their face; I never trust a man that Schmilesz too much !!!". Dumb and silly as this may sound these things actually keep going through the day and the night. PLEASE never stop making the videos :)
Im retired US Navy. Been an avid follower of naval technology development, and the roles various classes of ships were built for. Also had all the Star Fleet Tech Manuals. Played Star Fleet Battles and the FASA STTCS , extensively. My take on the D-7 is that they were mis named or categorized by Star Fleet. Based on the various Klingon ships in Star Fleet Battles and FASA STTCS, the D 7 are much more like Destroyer's. They are the most widely built ship by the Klingon Empire, and are often found in packs of 3 through out the Star Trek TV shows and movies. They are used as patrol ships by the Klingon's quite extensively. Being the most produced ship in the NAVY. Also being heavily used as a patrol ship and often traveling in small groups (or Task Groups as the US or British Navy would call them) That They are mislabled as "BattleCruisers" by the creators of Star Trek. The D 7 much more fits the design, description, armament, ect...of a Modern Naval Destroyer. While Constitution class ships more more resemble the typical armement, protection, size and function of a Modern Naval Cruiser or Heavy Cruiser. The US Navy was the first to Build large, Fleet Destroyers. Prior to WW2 , Destroyer class vessels in modern navies of the time, small, lightly armed ships that primarily were used to escort merchant ships to protect from submarines, or run a screen using smoke and torpedeos, to give the merchants time to escape faster surface warships such as a Cruiser or Battlecruiser. The US Navy's Fletcher class Destryoer (which served on up into the 90's) were the first ;Destroyers built to be fast enough, large enough, and well armed enough to operate with the main fleet, of Crusiers, Battleships and later Fleet Carriers. The D 7 really seems to be based on the 'Fleet Destroyer' concept the US began to build at the beginning of WW2. The Fletchers, were the size of earlier and some current Crusier class ships. Werer faster than the cruisers and battleships, but carried much less armor and protection. So, basically, my take on the Klingon D7 is that Matt Jefferies probably intended for it to be called a Destoryer in Star Trek TOS. But, it was designated a Battle Crusier, to save money on needing to design and build a model of a larger class of ship, comparable in function to ENTERPRISE. I mean, after all, Matt did designate it as a "D 7". IN the 50's-early 70's. US and British Destoryers carried the single "D" designation as part of their class and hull number. Of course, I could be wrong and "D" is the equivlant of "C" in Klingon...lol...Just my take as an avid fan of Star Trek ships since the mid 70's.
I loved SFB! I still have the manuals and counters too!
@@blockmasterscott SFB was of course the basis for the greatest ST Combat Game ever, Star Trek Star Fleet Command. and Star Trek Star Fleet Command: Orion Pirates.
The shield superiority theory tracks pretty well. The Enterprises shields were shown to be more resilient in TMP after absorbing a plasma energy weapon hit from Vger, while the three Klingon K't'inga cruisers shown previously couldn't withstand it.
I like star trek ships a lot. Especially the older versions. It gives strong retro futurism vibes.
They also have a certain utilitarian feel: aside from the large walking areas typical of TV shows, they have a minimum of wasted space.
As much as I like the sleek designs of later, the refit Constitution class will always have a spot for me. It improves on the budgetary constraints of the original TOS model, without completely changing the look.
I know a spaceship doesn't need to be aerodynamic, but there is just something about those "upgrades" that vastly improves the feel of the ship for me.
I like the shield arcs from Star Fleet Battles. Almost always fits the dialogue.
I always viewed the Klingon D-7 to be the equivalent of the Soviet era tanks: good enough, and designed to be cheaper and used en masse compared with the USS Constitution which was designed to maximize quality at the cost of being harder to build/maintain and more expensive to produce.
They travel in threes
@@esecallum Yes, I understand that is the preferred tactic. That is consistent with my comments about Soviet tanks: they were designed to be used in groups and to win through numerical superiority, not to dominate one-on-one.
There was an old hex-based tabletop battle game put out by FASA back in the 80s. They had stats written up for hundreds of Fed, Klingon and Romulan ships. In their reconning the Constitution was very OP. It was a fair fight to pit one of them against 3 of the weakest D-7 variant.
🖖😎👍Very cool and very nicely well done and executed and informatively explained in every detail way shape and form provided on this format and subject matter on the few Battle scenarios between the Enterprise and Klingon D7 in the original series, A very nice job indeed Sir!👌.
I have been waiting patiently for this video!!
It's a big treat. 💯
One thing that's a possibility is that the D-7's were intended for use in groups. In the pocket TOS novel Kobayashi Maru, it is said that D-7 battlecruisers run in packs and intermesh their shields for strength. This means that, while weaker alone, in groups they are much stronger due to their ability to reinforce one other.
A couple of notes about combat at warp speeds, theoretically there is no reason why this wouldn't work, assuming the following:
1) Relativistic affects are avoided by the "cheat" of warping space. The ship is moving sub-light within its warp bubble, but the warp bubble is compressing space around the ship
2) Combat is at _massive_ distances. Since space is compressed around the ship, you would be able to "see" _really_ far. Tens of thousands of miles/km at least. Far enough that light would take measurable time (seconds, at least) to traverse, so you can react to the battle.
3) Your sensors and targeting systems also "cheat." In Star Trek, they use subspace, which effectively makes communications (and sensors) able to detect and receive data trans-light
With all of the above, it works. A simple example would be a ship moving at warp downrange, laterally to you. Normally, if it's going FTL, you couldn't really observe it (or it would be a streak/line or something equally useless to target). However, if it's technically moving sub-light, it's still interacting with the physical world (radio/light bounces off of it like normal), and _your_ ship's warp field makes everything appear massively closer to you, so basically think of warp combat as both ships just being artificially closer to each other, but otherwise still apparently doing normal maneuvers (apparently to each other, that is). Now, a ship without warp capability essentially wouldn't be able to participate in this combat. The ship with warp could engage at vastly larger distances, since their warp bubble "brings everything closer," and could effectively dodge anything thrown back at it, just by moving very slightly, since it could be far enough away where the travel time of even lasers would be observable. The warp bubble allows you to "see" the laser fired from several light seconds away.
Warp vs. non warp combat would be pointless, any target without warp technology could be fired upon from great distances and they wouldn't even have a warning, they would be hit at the _exact same moment_ that they could even perceive the attack.
Oh man before I write the video for journey to Babel I am going to re-read this comment at least two more times!
@@resurrectedstarships I really do hope that it made sense, and is helpful. Keep up the great work!
A few thoughts here on this:
1. Enterprise is the Hero Ship and has pliot armor in abundance when needed.
(Recent movies and series have unfortunately reduced this considerably and the Big-E is constantly severely damaged... especially in Nu-Trek films)
2. The Enterprise and the rest of the Constitution class were based off the early American frigates.. one of which is THE Constitution and is still in service.
(The British in the War of 1812 ordered their ships to not attack one of these American Frigates unless they had a 2:1 or better advantage!)
3. Klingons are often seen operating in flights of 3. A single D7 may be at a disadvantage, but a flight of D7s should cause Starfleet grave concern, despite their Constitution class ships.
(Kobyashi Maru test has waves of 3 D7s attacking, thus showing this a common Klingon strategy)
All in all, a fun discussion and great video.
I AM SO HAPPY YOU ARE BAACK! I love your incredible animations and especially your Crossover scenarios!
The "Prepare to be Boarded," threat isn't, we'll board and then fight it out man to man, it's we'll board and you will surrender your ship or we'll blow you out of space so the troop carrier is not good speculation entirely. However, I think Klingons liked to capture and take prizes so they probably carried more crew than necessary to support opposed boarding missions. They may have even considered it an effective combat tactic so I don't think you're completely wrong either. The big question I have is why don't SF ships have Marines?
I've always felt it should be that the original series battles at warp should be retconned as law not a bug. Make it that the vast improvement we see in manoeuvrability by DS9 is because of improvements in using warp at sub-light. Rewinding to TNG they weren't quite as manoeuvrable but shield tech had improved since the original series so slugging it out was more viable BUT when you go all the way back to the original series it was important to move past you opponent quickly to limit how easy you were to hit. This led to a sort of "warp jousting" as a common tactic to try to compensate for poor shielding and manoeuvrability.
Enterprise obviously damages that theory but it also doesn't have any consistency with anything so there you are.
Also tbh I always assumed D-7s and K'tinga were the names used across the class's development it's just that K'tinga was the Klingon designation for the ship and Starfleet didn't know that so designated it a "D7".
i feel ships should be able to fight at warp speeds.
Or something as simple as the main antimatter reactor being required to sustain an SIF field or inertial dampers strong enough to keep the ship tearing itself apart and splattering the crew across the bulkheads under high-G maneuvers. Better, more efficient reactors = more maneuverability because you can lighten the spaceframe, increase moment arms without worrying about structural failure, etc.
@@joeswanson733 Ditto. I kinda like the idea of warp combat being standard, because that would show how advanced the Trek verse is.
But I also realize that it would be nigh impossible to show on screen in any way a layman audience would be able to intuitively follow, especially when Hollywood loves visual range combat.
@@noppornwongrassamee8941 Only if you need both fighting ships to be seen in the same scene, at the same time. In TOS, they only saw enemy ships on the viewscreen, in distances of 10s of thousands of kilometers. That works just fine for 'combat at warp speeds' - the ships are never VISUALLY in range of each other at all, just sensor images on the viewscreen.
I love how the Original Enterprise looks in these videos
Those original Star Trek designs run circles around ships designed for modern Trek. So much more imagination and thought went into those designs, the talent of Jeffries and others are unquestionable.
I agree.
In Errand of Mercy, Spock calls the Klingon ship a scout. Which indicates it is not a D7
Dude, your productions get better every time! Well done, bruh!
He’s always been a pioneer!
Just watched "The Ultimate Computer" last night, would love to see an analysis of the battle between M-5 Enterprise vs the Lexington, Potemkin, Excalibur, and Hood, by your channel!
I wonder who was watching the vast Federation while nearly half of the deep space starships of Starfleet were playing wargames.
Great video! I find it to be your best visually!
The youtube channel EC Henry speculated what the first klingon ship, not shown in the original revision could've looked like and even made a 3D model. It's a really good watch, if you haven't seen it yet.
Oh yes I saw that! First Klingon ship on screen - a SWOOSH!! :D
I kind of feel like the federation in TOS were very much "Quality over Quantity" while the Klingons preferred large numbers of squishier more disposable ships.
Least that's how I mentally explain the difference in strength of the two ships in the original show.
That's still the case for them as late as DS9.
If 2267 Starfleet only had 12 ships as sophisticated and sturdy as the Enterprise and the D7 could nearly match them...yet they made enough D7s to sell or trade them to the Romulans:
Then most of Starfleet, the Federation merchant class and the member states' own space navy would be in a major disadvantage in confronting the Klingon squadrons.
Federation space in S1pt2, S2-3 was shown as so vast it would take thousands of ships to service and protect the expanse. Even United Earth in the first 13 episodes couldn't have been serviced by a small fleet shown in the series.
@@STho205
1. The Constitution Class has been shown easily destroying Klingon D7s, so no, it's not a close match.
2. The Constitution Class is not the only class of Federation ship. Far from it.
3. The _Star Fleet Technical Manual_ indicates the United Federation of Planets expanded the Constitution Class to 150 ships, compared to the United Earth's 12.
As the earlier D6 has the same basic hull of the D7, except with less powerful weaponry & slower warp drive, the Klingon battle cruiser, seen in ENT, was most likely to represent a D6.
Well done video. I think there are some things that would support the Starfleet's worry over the D7, and the Klingon fleet in general, regardless of the Constitution's seeming superiority.
1. There are only about a dozen Constitutions in Starfleet by the beginning of TOS; there's also mention that Starship Captains are a breed apart from other spaceship captains in Starfleet. With the idea that most other Starfleet ships are of a lesser class, and with the reasonable presumption that the D7 is more numerous, it follows that Starfleet has reason to worry.
2. We know from 'Day of the Dove' that the D7 has roughly the same crew complement as Enterprise, that the Klingon fleet is more combat oriented than Starfleet, and that, presumably, their ships have a higher proportion of combat crew aboard; it seems reasonable to assume that a D7 Captain could be confident of victory against a comparably crewed Starfleet ship, given the seeming advantage of their position.
3. We also know that Klingons didn't follow certain conventions with regards to treatment of civilians, while occupying planets. This would also give Starfleet pause, as Klingon forces would likely show less discrimination in who they targeted, if it came down to a wider armed conflict.
This was magnificent. Thank you for making it!
In the Animated series the D7s get torpedo launcher upgrades. Or an energy projector system.
Were they still using D7's in animated or had they upgraded to the berial?
@@singletona082 nope D7s
@@barrybend7189 Ah. thanks for the clarification 👍
I is late but I have a feeling the fear of the D-7 has to do with cloaking device, which would allow for the type of potent alpha strike needed to take on a ship that would otherwise outdo it in straight on combat like the Constitution class - this ability to effectively jump and destroy a high profile ship like a Constitution and get away with it potentiallymultiple times is what I would figure is why Starlfeet pisses themselves seeing it
I'm thinking that Kirk's decision to wait to fire the torpedoes after the D-7 passed them was because the rear shields were weaker than the forward or side shields. Great analysis!!!
One of the older ship to ship games for Star Trek was SFB or Starfleet Battles, originally made before the movies. The original layout of starships was everyone had phasors, some better then others, ranked 1, 2 and the short range point defense type 3's. Only exception was a race was able to make a gatling phasor, basically a type 3 with 4x faster firing. Starbase's had the massive type 4, to big for a starships.
That said all races had different heavy weapons like Disruptors, Photon Torpedoes, Plasma. Disruptors were fast firing but lower yield roughly 50% the power of a normal Photon. Photon Torpedoes were slow but a bit more versatile including self detonation for area effect. Both weapons had over load options, reduced their range by a lot, but pack a punch.
SFB rocked!
You left out 'The Enterprise Incident'.
All of this jives with the FASA RPG from the 80s. They published “ship recognition manuals” for the three major powers and they also imagined the D-7A as being no match for the Constitution 1 on 1.
Love to see analysis of yesterday’s enterprise battle
Great video. The 3d modeling is getting better and better 👍
I think the reason that Klingons don’t have photos is that the Klingon fleet is so large and there simply aren’t enough torpedoes, kind of like Quantum torpedoes for the Federation.
TNG had warp combat, they did several times against the Borg. In DS9, several K'Tingas fired red disruptor pulses from the "torpedo launcher" in the Klingon Seige of DS9 "Way of the Warrior" Part II
Really, not enough information to draw reliable conclusions from. Furthermore, the basic D-7 design seems to have REALLY stood the test of time; so, I suspect that it's a good design, and, one that takes upgrades well. One advantage that the Connie really does SEEM to have is greater firing arcs. The Klingons seem to have the bulk of their weapons facing-forward. [which seems to be just a part of their ethos: 'attack aggressively and win; rear-mounted weapons are for people who run-away']
On Enterprise and the Klingon ship models and having Photon Toros, the former can be explained on how Klingons kept the same model of ships for centuries with tweaks and improvements. For the torps, those were primitive ones that didn't have the capabilities of the 23rd and 24 the century warheads and Klingon doctrine wouldn't use them until they got better versions of the Photon Torpedo in the latter 23rd century.
indeed, can assume their older torps couldn't track ships well so they stuck with the energy projectors, eventually their tech caught up with the need
Gunner, Unleash the Light Bulls!
Aye-aye Captain!
It has been established that a warp bubble can be temporarily kept in balance outside of the original generator but it would fade over time. However nothing is stated as to what keeps this warp bubble going ? I'm using the data from saucer separation. Keeping a temporary warp bubble would explain how ships can launch torpedoes while at warp , and the projectile does not simply pop into regular space outside of the ship's immediate field of effect.
photon torpedoes are fitted with a 'warp sustainer engine' essentially a mirco scale warp coil using a little of the torpedoes matter/anitmatter warhead to fuel it, enough to keep a torpedo launched at warp speed at warp speed for a little while, eventually it will slow to sublight speeds
Kudos to you, young man, for referencing FASA as well as Star Fleet Battles!
Yes, the D-7A was no match for the Constitution class in FASA. They’re a more balanced match in SFB.
Enterprise is not cannon (nor is anything that comes after it).
The cannon ended with Voyager and Nemesis.
In James Blish adaption of the Errand of Mercy episode the author decided that it was a scout ship that first attacked the Enterprise, hoping for a lucky shot before the shields came up. I've always liked that idea.
In the later episode I think two factors come into play, one you have a klingon commander who's improvising after his original plan failed, the second was that he wasn't a very good commander. First he was hesitant after hitting the Enterprise a few times, either calling for instructions or seeing if he had done enough damage for the ship to blow up on its own. Then when he attacked again and the Enterprise shields took the hit thanks to the warp engine being online again, he didn't notice the increase in power. I think he was using all of his ships power on the weapons, leaving the shields on low power. After all even if the Enterprise could have gotten off a shot it would have been too weak to do any damage. He's heading away from the Enterprise, probably going to swing around for another pass, putting him in perfect firing position for the photon torpedos to hit his engineering section. He probably didn't last long after this mission which from the klingon perspective was a complete disaster. Not only did the Federation learn about the crystals, the commander made mistake after mistake in the battle. I often wonder if he ever realized how the Enterprise got her power back.
As to the opening on the front of the D7, I always thought this was a shuttle bay as it reminded me of the ones on the Discovery in 2001 A Space Oddesey.
I've seen one of the two actual TOS D-7 models built by AMT for the series, and there is no way it is a shuttle bay as it has a projector style device inside the cylindrical alcove. The shuttle bay is in the back of the raised superstructure on the engineering hull as you can clearly see the sliding doors on both the original models as well as the more detailed K'Tinga model built for TMP.
I doubt the author of the episode put this much thought into it, but here's my take as to why the Klingon commander did what he did:
The Klingons have discovered there are dilithium crystals everywhere on these planets (or at least one of them). They've also discovered that there is unrest between the two cultures. If this unrest continues (or better yet, breaks out into war), then the Federation will be too busy trying to handle it to notice the Klingons trading weapons for crystals (or just going to a remote area and picking them up).
When they discover that Enterprise has been given the mission to transport the bride to the other planet, they seize their opportunity. Knowing simply destroying the Enterprise in combat (not at all a sure thing) would cause both sides to *hate* the Klingons (thus removing all chance of getting the crystals), they decide on a more sneaky tactic. Making sure their man is on board, his job is to find a way to destroy the ship (also not an easy task).
However, Kirk surprisingly orders the ship to proceed to the other planet on impulse only (in response to the envoy's request for time to tame the beast, er, bride). Now the saboteur has time to consider the best plan and decides on the warp sabotage method. This at least would be a believable accident. The saboteur makes sure the Klingon Commander knows this plan before enacting it (he may have needed permission). The Klingon Commander knows when the saboteur kills himself, so its time to see if he did his job.
Enterprise doesn't take the bait, but it doesn't go to warp, either. The Commander quickly realizes that Enterprise is effectively crippled and now easy prey for his ship. He still has the issue of them recognizing the Klingons were responsible for the destruction, so he'd prefer not to do that if he could avoid it. However, _capturing_ the ship would be a nice coup for the Klingons. Thus, he whittles down Enterprise's shields until they're almost non-existent. Then he backs off to give them time to reconsider surrender knowing the next shot will destroy them. If they don't surrender, he's hoping it'll take time to determine it was the Klingons who destroyed Enterprise.
Unfortunately for him, our heroes have figured out how to get their warp power and drive back and successfully do so in time for their next attack. Needless to say, this takes the Klingon Commander completely by surprise and gives Enterprise a nice opportunity for some photon torpedo retribution. They get a bit of a lucky hit (as can be gleamed from the exclamation of Sulu and Chekov) which significantly damages the D-7.
The author obviously didn't research Star Trek Klingon lore as:
a) this is after "The Enterprise Incident", so they should have a working cloak
b) they're able to do all of this with the Origanian Treaty in place?
The former would make the lack of detecting the D-7 understandable, but the latter should prevent them from attacking at all. Oh, well.
What you can’t make strong, you make in numbers to overwhelm your enemies.
Those WARP maneuvers could be the precedent of the Picard Maneuver. Short WARP jumps to confuse Klingon sensors.
12:20 In the original series era, that hollow area at the bow of the D-7 was supposed to be the Klingon deflector dish. Also, in the Animated series, the Klingon D-7 did fire torpedoes from the bow.
Great video do have one for the USS
Reliant from Wrath of Kahn.
I think it was know as a Miranda Class ship.
Your CG kicks ass.
I also feel like the Constitution Class was, for at least a decade, simply a game-winning ship design. It was a revelation in teams of firepower, speed and power-plant performance. It was like the HMS Dreadnought of its age; once introduced it made all other ships in its class obsolete. Its not that the D-7 was simply inferior due to Klingon shortcomings, rather, the Constitution Class was a revelation when introduced. Decades ahead thanks to a revolutionary design that married a number of advanced dispirit systems that individually could give a smaller Federation Starship an advantage, but when combined into one ship it was heads and shoulders superior to those that proceeded it.
The K'Tinga was the answer, and it seems a really good one, for the Constitution Class was pretty much done within even 10-15 years of a major refit, and the Excelsior Class took its place relatively quickly, while the K-Tinga soldiered on for the next 75 years.
Except Dreadnought wasn't really that revolutionary. The U.S. and Germany already had similar ships on the slipways when Dreadnought was drawn up, she just launched first. Dreadnought was really just a product of her time, not ahead of it. A better comparison would be USS Nautilus or USS Los Angeles.
And the Excelsior and Miranda classes stay in service for more than 70 years. Both are still in use during the Dominion war. Feels like the Excelsior is just big enough to fit more modern tech and the Miranda is cheap enough to keep them running. (I know that behind the scenes they didn't want to put the original Enterprise in mass in battles to keep it's legacy)
And that long of a use isn't too uncommon. The first Nimitz class carrier was commissioned in 1975 and they are supposed to be replaced by the Ford class. Which is ongoing, but so far only 2 of 10 ships are done and the 3rd is supposed to be commissioned in 2028, with 7 more to follow. So the old carriers are surely in use for another 20-30 years until fully replaced. Or the B-52 bomber, original designed in 1952, still in service, most of them B-52H which originated in 1961, and they are expected to stay in service into the 2050s, giving the whole design about a century of use.
Always excited for your star trek posts!
Me too, I know he has other interests but these are so good!
I'd love to see an animated analysis of "Doomsday Machine."
Waiting until the Klingon ship had closed in before firing torpedoes is not necessarily due to the possibility of the D-7 evading them, but because the longer the torpedoes have to travel to get to their target (including maneuvering to hit an evading ship), the more of their precious antimatter-matter warhead reactants they have to consume and therefore less effect if too much is used.
03:01 the Klingon torpedo's hitting the enterprise look cooler than the remastered version.
Maybe I'm oversimplifying this; but, i think if a ship was in combat with only maneuvering thrusters against an enemy with impulse engines, it would be at a severe disadvantage.
So, this leads to a ship with impulse engines engaging with a ship using warp engines...
Then throw in the superior power generation of anti matter vs impulse in providing power for various functions....
If impulse is sub light speed in normal space, how do they interact with warped subspace when under warp drive.
If impulse is FTL, which it really has to be because of how it is often used in several scripts all the way to the movies, then since warp is a different physical dimension phase of space...again how do they interact?
However in Star Trek impulse was prop plane speed and warp was supersonic jet speed. Warp factors was Mach. Therefore no space and time dilation effects.
We all realize that.
I feel that the tension with the Klingon appearances is even if the Enterprise won. Even if the D7 was woefully outmatched? It is still a federation loss, as that incident will snowball into a resumption of full scale hostilities (minus the organians getting involved and putting their foot down on both their necks.) It is a very real fear born out of the cold war....
Which is sadly VERY relevant given current events.
Kinda funny how the Constitution class is presented as this amazing ship during the original series, but without the Enterprise’s plot armor, almost every other ship of the class ends up with a terrible fate. Anyway, great vid like always!
50% casualty rates
uss farragut
uss defiant
uss excalibur
uss constellation
uss exeter
USS Hood
To be fair most of those ships encounters insanely powerful entities or things starfleet had no way of planning for. Or in some cases just bad luck and the Enterprise had the benefit know what they were dealing with.
Lore reloaded did an episode on this last week
They were all on missions where Federation technology just wasn't ready to protect them. I get wanting to use your expensive warships for diplomacy and exploration, but it's honestly not a good investment to send them out into the dangerous galaxy filled with threats you cannot even imagine. They're supposed to be used to offset their costs by contributing to the Federation's scientific understanding and diplomatic connections when not used to defend its borders, not get blown up by space monsters and thus be unable to defend said borders.
Oh baby this looks good.
To bad NuTrek can't show the same love for the source material. Kurtsman needs to be spaced.
We see the model in at least two other episodes - albeit without conflict - in unremastered TOS - Trouble with Tribbles, Day of the Dove. I also wouldn't say it's a vastly inferior ship; 2:1 should be well more than adequate.
Note that SFB is still in print, FASA isn't, and almost everything FASA added has been overwritten.
They blew it up in Day of the Dove, threw the surviving crew in the brig and fought them to the un-death through the corridors with sabres.
Contrived or not...that's conflict.
@@STho205 But not involving the ship.
@@WilliamHostman they blew it up with phasers.
Excellent breakdown and analysis. One of my favorite lines in Star Trek VI was "Never been this close before..."
I also remember the lines from Star Trek III "..federation battecruiser..." "....what are they waiting for? They outgun me 10 to 1..."
I think this gives us the most information about many Klingon ships and their strategies. A Bird of Prey was really only a threat to a 'Ship of the Line' if you couldn't hit it. The Enterprise repelled 5 or 6 torpedo hits before having its shields drained to the point that the hull was compromised.
Two Klingon torpedo hits was sufficient to severely damage Kronos 1, which was their D-7 flagship.
In every successful Klingon battle, we see swarm-tactics used to keep consistent hits to their shields, on a single ship, at a minimum while raining maximun destruction on their target. It's only when the Enterprise focuses all of its attetion on a single ship that the ship is easily dispatched.
Check me if I'm wrong here, but wasn't the Enterprise in a Red Alert status, at full battle stations, with shields at maximum, expecting an attack, whereas Kronos 1 was not on a war footing, with shields completely down, with its most vulnerable area at literally point blank to the Enterprise (and IKS Dakronh...). Let's not forget that Kronos 1's officer corps was more than a little "inconvenienced"...
@@allennelson3881 You're mistaken. Enterprise was not at Red Alert because they were panicking about where the topedoes had come from and in the background we kept hearing Checkov suggest "Shields Up Captain?"
Kronos 1 obviously didn’t have their shields up when they were hit.
@@scalywing1 It was being escorted by a Federation battlecruiser to a peace negotiation. Why would it?
Was nice to hear the old FASA "Starship Tactical Combat Simulator" being referenced. I spent many an hour in my late teens and early 20's playing the FASA game, and Starfleet Battles, originally from Task Force Games.
Loved playing Star Fleet Battles back in the 80s. That's where a lot of the technology of different ships and races were developed.
I like your lighting for the Constitution class. Very nice
That's a good point about a warp field's ability to reduce the mass of the object within the field. I'd totally forgotten about that.
There's one other possible indicator that the D7 carries cryo-pods.
In TNG: The Emissary (S2E2) the Ktinga class T'Ong, the successor to the D7, has been sent on a deep strike operation using cryo-pods to keep the crew alive while they proceed slowly at sub-light into Federation space. There's no comment that she was specially fitted out for that operation, so it would infer said pods are standard issue.
There were blueprints drawn up of these ships during the production of the original series. In fact, the hobby model of Klingon battle cruiser was made directly from these blueprints. The parts were cut out of wood, and traced by a machine to produce the master model pieces at 1/3 the size. Normally, these wooden prototype pieces are discarded, but AMT assembled them to make the studio miniature.
The Klingon ship was armed with "Disruptors" on the warp engine nacelles and "Phaser" on the underside of the bulb and on the engineering hull. It did not have "Photon Torpedoes," and the opening on the bulb is marked "Sensor." The blueprints differentiate the D-6 from the D-7 by stating that the later ship had 2 more phasers on the underside of the engineering hull. I can only speculate that Matt Jeffries was using the old English ship design nomenclature where the basic hull was given a letter and each subsequent revision of the ship's layout was given a number.
I regard everything that came later, including the 1979 movie, as "fan fiction." The underside of the Enterprise saucer is shaped like an advanced spike nozzle, which would make it a fully atmospheric ground to space platform. Likewise, the forward section of the Klingon BC is a lifeboat, in case things go wrong in the engineering hull. As beautiful as the studio models were for that movie, they do not contain the fantasy I gleam from looking at Matt Jeffries' work. Having a photon torpedo fire from the bulb on the front of the Klingon ship and the way the movie Enterprise flattens the Enterprise saucer makes the designs defy rational explanation.
0:25 In the second season Episode "Friday's Child" Scotty had to battle past a Klingon warship to rescue Kirk, Spock and McCoy who were stranded on Kapella IV. We didn't see it on screen, but it did occur.
Just so you know the Discovery Klingon ships are very old relics like the ship of the dead, likely just updated.
My favorite Klingon "D7" action scene is the beginning of the first star trek movie when three battle cruisers attempt an attack on the voyager "viger" cloud. The music that goes along with the attack and the sound of the photon torpedos is outstanding.
If i recall the novelization of the Errand of Mercy episode, the Klingon ship was identified as a scout vessel or other light ship that elected to go out in a blaze of glory.
In Errand of Mercy, when told a fleet of Klingon ships is in the area and may suddenly appear over Organia at any moment, Mr. Sulu responds, " We'll handle them sir!" Kirk quickly counters ordering Sulu that if a fleet appears they're to, "...get out of here!" The implication is that Sulu, an experienced combat veteran, was confident enough in the superiority of the Enterprise over even a fleet of Klingon vessels that he was prepared to go toe to toe with them! Kirk clearly thought differently was not prepared to take the risk, and I agree. But Sulu's confidents implies the Constitution class was a ship to be reckoned with.
This an AWESOME channel!!!
I found your theory, and logic, to be sound. And I am inclind to agree with you, many thanks for sharing.
I loved the D-7 battle-cruiser design. One of the best enemy spaceships made in the history of enemy spaceships.
Great summary of these battles. It's always surprising how few battles there were with the Klingons, given their reputation in fandom!
I really like this battle breakdown
There was plenty of narrative in TOS that the Connie class starship was special, with the Enterprise being one of the 12 of her kind, she was ordained with Captain Kirk to accomplish the 5 year exploration mission and was best fit to defend the UFP when the situation called for it. Truely was the Queen of the Galaxy at that time...
One thing I recalled and I have the old Starfleet Tech manual on it as well. There were a total of 12 Constitution class starships, these new line of ships were each sent out on five year missions to explore.
Yes, there were other classes, but at that time the Constitution was a new class. Out of the 12, only 4 (I could be wrong here) returned, the Enterprise being the first to return. Thus they used her insignia in Starfleet to this day
And yes... despite the naysaysers on this... Each ship had their own Delta
Very illustrative content. And very well executed. Thank you!!
In my head canon, the disparity between D7 and Constitution class simply boiled down to simple reason - reactor. On paper, the D7 have the firepower and defense to rival the Constitution class, however, Klingon reactor is at least about a decade behind Starfleet, and D7 reactor simply cannot supply enough power to all of her system in the way the Constitution class can, and as Klingon commander prefer a more aggressive combat style, most commander prefer to maximize power to propulsion and disruptor to strike fast and hard, leaving dangerously low power level for their shield, which Starfleet gladly take advantage of. It would not be until the K'tinga class that Klingon ship would have the reactor system that can keep up with Federation ships.
i remember reading trek fan stuf and basically
klingons have more powerful weaponry like disruptors and torpedoes
but starfleet has better sensors, shields, engine endurance
there's also the factor that the klingons are a lot less adverse to casualties (HONOURABLE DEATHS) and hull-tanking than federation ships so their shields in and of themselves were likely to be less advanced and far less of a priority than maximising the attack value of their initial hits, if you can kill the targets key systems early on then you don't need your shields.
The issue to this being the feds built their ships like turtles with a spiky shell and a damnable "do-anything-dish" plus torpedo spitting contraption mounted fairly securely under their chins.
I love this video series and your models are so good. Keep up the great work
Brilliant video, thank you so much for all your work!
On a one on one engagement, perhaps Starfleet had nothing to fear, provided it was the Enterprise or that class of ship. Even with shields down and no weapons, the Enterprise with it's plot armour, is still very formidable.
In the book, “The Making of Star Trek.” It is stated that both phasers and photon torpedoes are energy weapons. The name photon torpedo comes from the concept of matter and anti-matter being temporarily held separate, in a magneto photon force field, until detonation. It isn’t until Star Trek 2 that torpedoes are shown to have a physical casing.
As far as maneuvering is concerned, it is strongly implied that the Klingon ship is using warp drive. It is not just a matter of turn rate but the fact that the Klingon ship can move hundreds of times faster.
“The Making of Star Trek” book also reveals that holodecks and saucer separation were conceptualized for TOS Enterprise, but in much simpler form.
The book also states that Romulans were originally intended to be much more honorable than the Klingons, who were intended to be absolute villians.
I thoroughly enjoyed this battle breakdown. Thank you
I have a theory of a sort this is my theory the term battle cruiser is a bit of a mist nomer because the ship usually pops up with 3 to 1 constitution and in the novelization of star trek the motion picture pinned by Jean ronberry he refers to the enterprise as a heavy cruiser but the term is just a stop position which will give you an idea that there could be something powerful but corner what he had said They could have been called an Explorer or a battleship due toIt's power level and we know that in a later star trek's like in TNG the klingon main ship is called an attack cruiser but it appears to have a possession more like that of a heavy cruiser
Clearly, they fight at warp speed. I think you chould visualize it like jets dogfighting at supersonic speed.
Exactly.
A quick note: the Klingon vessel in Errand of Mercy used neither phasers nor disruptors, but "magnetic pulses." Evidently D-7 ships come with various weapon and equipment arrangements. This ship evidently also had a cloaking device similar to the Romulans, as it appeared just before its attack. I would theorize that it was optimized for just such sneak attacks, but the magnetic pulses don't have the same deadly firepower as a Romulan plasma torpedo.
Kirk responds not with standard phasers, but "proximity blasts," a version of phaser fire that explodes in an area-of-effect, much as he did against his earlier Romulan foe. Presumably proximity blasts are weaker in overall effect, but cover a larger area. So the "sneak attack" version of the D-7 has weaker shields.
The D-7 encountered in the Elassian system showed no signs of having a cloak, and definitely used disruptors. I would speculate that this D-7 was optimized for "slugging" rather than sneak attacks. This makes sense as the Enterprise had already shown its resilience against the sneak-attack version, so the Klingons tried a different approach.
In human ship classes, a "heavy cruiser" is optimized for firepower and durability, while "battlecruisers" trade armor and firepower for greater speed and maneuverability. I believe these designations further explain the difference in the vessels.
Finally, the Klingons self-admittedly have resource-poor systems, while the Federation evidently is quite prosperous. So Klingon vessels no doubt cut corners, leading to less resilient ships.
As we saw in _Balance of Terror,_ TOS Phasers have a discrete "proximity blast' setting, which fires projectile bolts - not unlike Defiant's pulse phasers - that explode in space. Due to budget limitations, the photon torpedo used the same special effect as this phaser until _Elaan of Troyus._ Either way, the Enterprise fired no beams in _Errand of Mercy,_ remastered version included.
Regarding torpedoes, antimatter will explode if allowed to touch anything - _including_ the container it's in. To prevent this, photon torpedoes use powerful magnetic traps to contain their antimatter warheads. If you can't generate the power to charge the magnetic trap, you can't fire torpedoes without blowing yourself up.
As for warp maneuvers, the Enterprise's Warp Engines work by manipulating gravity, which is literally a warp in space/time. The Warp Drive can be used for both forwards and _backwards_ travel at FTL speeds, and allows for far tighter maneuvers than possible under impulse power.
Very good. I enjoyed muchly. Appreciated. Thanks.
I believe the remastered version showed the D-7 firing torpedoes from the front tube in the errand of mercy & the Enterprise incident on the view screen from a distance according to the model kit I built that hole is supposed to be a deflector /antenna not a photon torpedo tube
Wow, it's nice to see so many people here like me that played Starfleet Battles. Boy, we had some truly vicious battles in the early 80s! I still have my manuals, SSDs, and counters!