I've fallen in love with another Paul Sellers plane brand ... Record. Avoid the later "Irwin Record" planes and you're pretty much guaranteed hefty, straight hand planes. I have a few Stanley planes, but rarely use 'em anymore.
@@kennnva551 Not sure about Record. If vintage, probably great. The new Record Tools I see on the market these days are Harbor Freight quality. I wouldn't buy them.
@@allanwolfe6071 You're correct about the newer models. I avoid the Record-Irwin line up, but the original series and the Record-Marples variety of planes are very good. Record and Stanley were both manufactured in Sheffield, England, but the Record castings were a little more robust. One fellow recently told me his Record #05 weighs about a pound more than his Stanley #5.
I'm the proud owner of a Bedrock #604 smoother. I found it at a yard sale and they wanted $15 for it. I couldn't say, "Would you take $12?" fast enough.
I follow Rex's videos. I rarely comment. This is a very good comparison review. If one wants a fine mouth. Buy a second one. No! A third one. $90 to $100 gets you a scrub plane, a general service plane and a super fine, extra sharp, nasty grain specialist smoother. Thanks Mr Krueger.
If you want to adjust the mouth, you can buy a second Stanley plane to set up with a closed mouth, and still come out at a fraction of the price of the Bed Rock, and once set up there's no adjustment beyond grabbing the other plane.
Which even eliminates the benefit of having a Bedrock back in the day as a professional who could potentially benefit from spending less time adjusting the mouth, as it seems unlikely it wouldn't be faster still to swap planes.
Excellent point... I have a cheesy buck bros No° I filed the mouth and tuned as my dedicated scrub plane, but the second Bailey is an excellent idea for folks on a budget who really want a dedicated medium mouth or who rely on others to set up their close smoothing mouth configuration and don’t want to touch/fix/break/ruin that “prefect zen like setup they’ve achieved on their 150+ year old work of art. They’d do well to never ever touch that frog again 🤪🤪🤪
i think the real reason why these didn't catch on is what happens when you start woodworking. so imagine you start woodworking, possibly a as an apprentice training under a master who's likely keeping a cut from any revenue you generate. you won't be having a lot of money, so when you get around to buying your first plane, you'll get the bailey and then, by the time you're good enough to make money on your own, you're completely satisfied using the bailey to which you might have also become emotionally attached by this point. finally, when you're a master, taking an apprentice of your own, guess which plane he'll see you using and guess which plane you'll be recommending and guess which plane your apprentice is going to pick up when he gets around to it?
I know that an infill plane would probably have the same verdict.... But I still don’t understand how my life will ever be totally complete without one of those gorgeous works of art. 😁
My Grandfather was a professional carpenter and joiner and when he died, I inherited some of his tools including a Stanley Bailey Plane. Over 70 years old and still works a treat.
I picked up a Bailey #4 at a swap meet (like you suggested) and restored it (based on your videos). I got that plane for $1. Just last week I saw a Bed Rock 604 for $75. Thanks to this video, I took a pass. Thanks for saving me money Rex!! I appreciate all the great information for us beginners. 👍
Very enjoyable and informative. Thanks young man. I am going to stick with my transitional, two grizzlys and the ones in your plans set. Between your plans, Paul's videos and James videos I pretty much have all I will ever need.
If it works, and you ENJOY USING IT, nothing else matters. I love my veritas 4 smoother, but I also love my vintage Stanley sweetheart 5 1/4, plus I restored it back myself, which adds to the joy of using it. In fact, I love both my old vintage as well as my premium planes. The only plane I hate using is my wood river 5, it's heavy, feels cheap, and unless I need a lot of control on depth of cut, I now use my wooden 5 from Auburn over my wood river. I really don't like that plane, and it's a bedrock...
It's worth pointing out that I'm more comfortable bringing out the "cheaper" handtools for work, because in the case some idiot drops it and causes serious damage, I CAN replace an "ordinary Bailey" relatively easily... ...NOT so much the premium, cork-sniffer Plane. ;o)
As a fellow plane nerd I totally agree with your assessment. Lets be honest we dont NEED half the planes we have, but they are fun to hunt down and cool to have 👍
I've had a Bailey for over 50 years (yes I am an old timer) and it is my go to plane for everything. Once you get used to how to make the adjustments, it just becomes part of the workflow. You did a great job and it made me feel good about my old plane. Thanks Rex.
I own and use both Baileys and Bedrocks. For me, this video was a test of your honesty in evaluation. You passed with flying co;ors. but I figured yo would. Also, as Paul Sellers points out, when you adjust the mouth on the Bedrock don't forget to adjust the iron before the first cut to prevent surprises. The frog bed on the body of a Bedrock slopes. Baileys are flat. Thanks, Rex
I wanted to comment on this just to add more value to this video for Rex because this is probably one of the best informational videos about plane value and difference that I’ve ever seen. Thanks Rex!
I paid $38 for my Bailey no 4 on ebay. Seller said it needed work. When I got it I touched up the blade and tried it out. PERFECTION! I plan to clean it up at some point, but I kinda like the patina. I also picked up a no 5 rust bucket for $10 at a flea market. It was rusted up so bad I had to replace the blade and chip breaker ($12 on eBay) and after doing a complete restoration it is the jewel of my shop. Special prominent shelf and all!! Love the channel and your content.
Thanks for the incredible dive in there, Rex. I appreciate the work you're putting into the handtool community, and helping to really open the way to a whole new generation of enthusiasts by smashing down barriers to entry, and demystifying things like this. Your videos are high up on my recommended "reading list" for new apprentices!
I think most of the problems occur with people who dont know how to tune their planes. I thought my Bailey wasnt as good as my other planes but it was because i had no idea how to tune. I actually learned how with your videos.
I was lucky to find three Bedrock planes at a bargain price a few years back, three different sizes, all for $90. I couldn't pass them up, and I'm glad to have them. But, I have to admit, part of the reason was the "mystique" surrounding them and their scarcity. It strikes me that you have done a fair test and appraisal. So, thank you for that, it was very enjoyable. I think planes have a special place among craftsmen and collectors because when is use, they feel like an extension of the woodworker's body. They give engaging feedback and the worker can sense the nature of the wood. For me, no other woodworking tool is such a pleasure to use.
@@RexKrueger Lol, brother, you're holding a Bedrock you paid a lot of money for at the same time you deride it as being for "cork sniffers"! It's okay to like something and pay extra money for it because it's just cool.
Everyone should have idea what's out there. Recently, I was looking at this plane, and the body was red, while the frog was black. It looked very well made, but I didn't recognize the name. Then I looked further, and there was plane with a black body, and a red frog. This one was stamped Miller Falls. Neither look used once, and someone had an idea to switch the frogs around. Both were Miller Falls, but one was made for another company. The guy wanted twenty five, which was the going price, except they were new, never used. I only had the money for one, so I got the black bodied Miller Falls. It was smoothing plane, and work as nice as your willing to sharpen the blade. After the lock down is over, I'll go and see if the other one is there. Why spend money, when cheaper works just as good? Still, sometimes people sell stuff, and they have no idea what it is. Honestly, if you can find a Norris smoothing plane, and it's cheap. Cool, it great to be informed. If you did find a Norris plane, you could sell it, and but new cork sniffers.
Hey Rex, I really hope you see this comment. I have been watching you for a while now and have begun referring you as " The Plane Master" . Looking around on the internet, I saw people making plane shavings lamps and other stuff. What really caught my eye was the plane shaving Yosegi. ALL the creators and craftsmen I looked at tried and stumbled at making Yosegi with limited success. Then I thought, I would really like to see The Plane Master take a crack at the Yosegi plane shavings. You have a great technique with a plane, better than the majority of the other craftsmen out there, so this would be a great challenge for you as well as a possibility for making more simple Yosegi for the common garage woodworker. Thanks and Cheers from Canada!!
Thanks for another informative and honest review. I did wonder what all the noise was about. My #4 came from my dad so it's totally irrelevant what brand or type it is. It's absolutely worth spending the time restoring and tuning a standard Bailey #4. And despite being a total newb, I'm getting shavings I can see through.
This was such a cool video. I loved the breakdown of the difference in function, system tests to validate worth, and assessment of why they are priced as such. Would LOVE to see one on different vintage saws.
Since Furniture college I have bought a lot of old cheap Stanley and Record planes to refurbish and use, but never afforded to buy a Bedrock. Thank you for doing the comparison so I don't have to.
I just bought a box of junky planes and one of them turned out to be a Bed Rock 604! I'm going to follow Rex's advice in his wire-wheel-on-bench-grinder vid to get it back on its feet again and then turn into a cork sniffing plane snob. I might have to retire my Footprint beater. Maybe I'll pimp the ride and make a fancy handle (I'll have to learn the wierd words for handle and such) and gold-plated something on it, like the springy blade hold down thingy! This is going to rock. (Or maybe it'll be sick - can't recall what the youngsters say these days when they mean really good.) Thanks, Rex!
Thanks, Rex! This is my favorite video yet of yours. You've done a great job of clearing out the cluttered misinformation about these. Well done! I suppose if I ever want to quickly adjust the mouth of my bailey patterns I'll just buy another and save both the expense of a bedrock, and the need for adjustment at all, since I'll have one on the shelf at the setting I'd like.
I found an old 605 1/2 bedrock in my schools tool room. Collecting dust in the back of a cabinet. I cleaned it up and used it the entire school year. Paid my dept $60 to keep it at the end of the year.
Thank you for explaining the main difference and preventing me in the future from looking for a Bedrock plane. I think the term "cork sniffer" is good not only for hand tools, but for many more.. like musicians. They listen to a professional, look for the maker of his instrument, buy the same thing and believe they can automatically play like a pro. Except there is a little detail: Practice, practice, practice.
So true. My late father was a professional photographer, and he often said when asked to justify his prices to those who said they could just go pick up a camera and "do the same thing" -- "You can hand anyone a paint brush, but that doesn't make them a Picasso..." Craftsmanship matters in all areas!
Clear, concise, honest no and bullshit good advice !!! Great as always Rex !! Sure the bedrock is nice and all but the prices people ask for them are a bit ludicrous!!
Thankyou, Rex... It's been a couple years since I actually first laid my eyes (and hands) on a Bedrock... The price was a mildly negotiable $125... compared to a five-gallon bucket of "decent" baileys that I restored with about $30 invested in the whole thing... AND I thought I must be either stupid or crazy, but I couldn't see any difference in the handling, cuts, nothing... I mean, I get the "feeling" of it being more stable, but that doesn't necessarily impress me. Like you pointed out, "The proof is in actual work getting done." AND you nailed it. The Bedrock is ONLY worth so much more because it's so much more rare than the ordinary Bailey type. I'll admit to a certain amount of tool collecting, just to have the collection... At the same time, I use every tool in the shop sooner or later... OR I determine that I don't really need the damn thing and sell it. It's as true for the metal cut-off saw as it is for the combination wood/iron Bailey type Jointing Plane... or any of the rebate and trim planes laying around the place. AND of course, "HELL YES! We want to hear and see more about the vintage and affordable handtools... restorations... frustrations... trials and tribulations... ALL OF IT!" TOOL PORN! TOOL PORN! TOOL PORN!!! ;o)
Part of it is that they just look cool and are were sold as premium tool. Their function is close enough. I have a great love for a Stanley 4 1/2, 5 1/2, a number 10 carriage plane, and a carriage rabbet block plane. Finding them is part of the experience that makes using them more special to me. I believe Bedrocks are a premium plane and why I’d spend on it. I think the price gap between a bedrock and normal Bailey is only getting smaller. I’d also reason that the price for a new Bedrock may have effected their place in the market but there were definitely enough tool snobs and professionals with the love for them to sell oceans of them. The number of Bedrocks out there may be small compared to all Stanley planes but it’s not insignificant either. People did buy them despite the price and seeing through any marketing hype.
The first plane I bought was a 5 1/2 bedrock I picked up at a farm auction. The only thing I had to compare it to was my grandfather's #5 which was/is ok. But right out of the gate the bedrock to me has been far superior. With less chatting, that is..none. The bedrock was so easy to setup. Sad to say I have never to this day taken the time to setup my grandfather's #5. The 5 1/2 bedrock is such a pleasure to use. I do take the point the Bailey planes work just fine. my everyday workhorse is a #4 lakeside. Which I am sure Stanley or Millerfalls made. #4s are so hard to come by for me. I prefer to find my hand tools....anyway good video.
I'm a turner so not much of a hand plane guy. But your comparison of the two types seems quite comprehensive to me. It would appear your conclusions are very accurate. Thank you for sharing.
LOL @ Cork Sniffers !!!! Been missing my Rex fix lately due to work and life but it was good to come back and see this one... I ALMOST bought a couple of Bedrocks a guy had a couple weeks back but opted for several Defiance and an Eclipse that were in far better condition and more in my wheelhouse
Good video. I have a type 4 603C that I bought many years ago. It is a nice plane from around 1908 or so. I have a Bailey 5 1/2 from 3 or 4 years later, perhaps 1912. It has the 2 1/4 iron. I have a Bailey 7 from the early 30s. All are in great condition. All do the same job. I paid $75 for the 603, about 35 for the 5 1/2 and the 7 was free. My biggest plane regret is passing up a 602C for $275 about 5 years ago. I was going to buy it and my wife talked me out of it.
Excellent real talk. Break it down rex & keep busting these myths.i think it's awesome that you take the time to share Wisdom, (not knowledge) on real experience as a result of your own research,time&energy spent learning,making mistakes,or just plane experience over time for a real life lesson.
The trouble I have with Bedrocks is that the seat of the frog to the body, while well designed, is inclined toward the mouth. The Bailey design has a level bedding. So, with the Bedrock, if you tighten the mouth, you also increase the depth of cut, which means you may have to withdraw the iron a bit. On a Bailey, the frog moves parallel to the sole of the plane and the iron edge stays where it was set. All that aside though, if your chip breaker is positioned properly near the edge of the iron, the need for a narrow mouth is minimized or eliminated. You can usually handle reversing grain and knots with little if any trouble. Picked up that trick on The English Wood Worker, BTW. The selling point that Stanley emphasized for the Bedrocks was that they reduced chatter, which is actually caused by thin, flexing irons, so the chip breaker and cap are much more important than Bailey ever intimates. In use the iron flexes away from the frog, so no matter how nicely machined the frog is, so unless the chip breaker and cap iron do their job, you get chatter. This is the main impetus for modern, thicker irons.
Thanks for a great video, I've always wondered if a so called "premium" plane was that much better than a well tuned and sharpened Bailey. Judging by the number of other UA-cam woodworking guru's (Paul Sellers, Rob Cosman, James Wright, etc.), that all reach for a Bailey #4, I'd say you're spot on in your assessment!
You can adjust the non-bedrock version on the fly by just moving the frog forward. Assuming everything is tight - but not too tight - it all works fine and nothing moves. I think Paul Sellers mentions this in one of his tutorials. I've tried it and it works!
Until recently I have only had wooden, continental style handplanes. While thriftshopping I found my first Stanley plane a No. 65 blockplane. Imagine the rush I got when I realized that I would only have to spend 4 swiss bucks for such a magnificent tool! Damn good day that was!
I don't own any Bedrock planes, but I do have several Bailey pattern Stanleys. I also own a few WR planes that are patterned after the BR and I have to say they are my go to handplanes. Great video as usual Rex, thanks.
Excellent advice Rex. I have had both, including a full suite of Lie Nielsen Bedrock-pattern bronze planes. I retreated, sold most of my expensive planes, and invested in new blades and chip-breakers where needed for my Bailey-pattern planes. That all done, my favorites are my two Bailey-pattern 5-1/4 planes, all original. One is set wide and the other is set narrow. Why the 5-1/4? Slightly longer than a #4, but enough narrower to accommodate my failing 71 year strength but excessively large hands. Most #4 totes are very tight for my fat fists. My #4 is an English made Record Bailey-pattern type I purchased new in 1986. It was a terrific plane right out of the box and has more “grip room” than most #4’s. I feel planes are like shoes. Size 10s from Adidias don’t fit like size 10s from Nike. I can’t fit my big grubby mitts into the tote of a Wood River #4 Bedrock-pattern plane, but their smaller #3 fits fine. The #4 tote is too close to the blade/chip-breaker assembly, the #3’s blade assembly and tote sets further apart in spite of being smaller overall. Go figure... Your mileage will definitely vary!
Thank you very much! From another guy with large hands who thought about buying the Wood River #4 plane! During this COVID-19 lockdown, WoodCraft only does curbside pickup, so I can't go into the store and put my hands on the tools prior to purchase...
FYI, Bailey #5-1/4 planes were the Grab First planes in my 8th grade woodworking class. I remember we had Blocks, 5-1/4s, & 7s. Might had others but that was 60 years ago so not crystal clear any more. You had to be in 9th grade to use table saws, jointers, etc.. Only power tools available to 8th graders were the lathe and bandsaw. Since I had to take a foreign language in 9th I only got 1 year of shop, all hand tools except for a turning project and a sculpted shelf roughed out on the bandsaw. That’s right, 14 year-old kids operating shapers, table saws, jointers, etc. Who says we’re asking more of students today? Not more today, just different. My grandson knows C++, Python, Arduinos, & Raspberry Pi’s, but I had to teach him about the sharp end of the chisel.
I had a very similar experience. I resurrected a rusty old garage sale Bedrock jack plane for a friend restoring it to like new condition without regard for "patina" and similar collector nonsense. I'm a machinist with a full home machine shop so I can do that sort of work competently. I'm a home woodworker too and I had no lack of squirrely grain remnant boards in my collection. I ran my Stanley Bailey user against the Bedrock for most of a day on nasty grained boards. There wasn't a nickle's worth of objective difference in performance berween the $240 Bedrock (collector evaluation) and my $30 Bailey I inherited from Dad. From this, I conclude that except for the Bedrock's slightly more convenient mouth adjustment, the only difference between the two planes is esthetics and a hugely inflated price. Operational differences perceived by enthusiasts cannot survive a blindfold test. Therefore the superiority is pure hype. BTW, I monkeyed with one of the earlier Anant clones of the Baily pattern plane. It took about half a day of TLC to bring its performance up to that of my Bailey. I also compared my Bailey to a Lee Valley out of the box and found no perceptable differences except the Lee Valley was a bit heavier and it did have a superior iron. I think the moral of the story is the Bailey pattern hand plane was a superior design, representing the end stage of a long evolution of hand planes from wood to transitional, to all metal. The fine points may be argued forever but to my way of thinking the test is time to plane a rough board to a satisfactory surface. If there isn't a nickel's worth of difference from one plane to the other in the finished product (reserving edge holding for the iron as a separate variable,) then after the time spent in set-up, money spent in excess of the basic tool is money spent on intangibles and hype. Shop carefully
I inherited a Bedrock #605. It works fine. In the 1990s I bought a #5 (1205?) Stanley. I used both for years (cabin framing and finishing) and basically thought they were the same plane made in different years, so I never understood the hype. I never adjusted the frog. It did win out over the cheap 90's model in the long run. The 1205 developed cracks around its mouth that I had to "level" with a claw hammer.
Love it. I like to think I'm a woodworker, but I'll admit to some tool collecting and I do have an unnatural desire to have some Bed Rocks. But if I'm honest, I'll have to admit that you nailed it with your "woodworking cult" comment - that is so totally accurate. I'll settle for ogling at yours for now though; my high end tool buying I think has stopped at some Steve Knight woodies. Lie Neilsen et. al. I'd love to have, but I can't justify the cost for what I do.
150 is a great deal for the BR. They are now in the 3-400 dollar range easily. If you want a great tool, go with the Bailey. Otherwise, if you want the BR style, you may want to look at a Wood River. I bought a 4-1/2 and couldn't be happier. the modern touches like minimal backlash, good blades, and fine adjustment make them a pleasure to work with.
Couldn’t but fail to agree more. There are a lot of things like that. Even Stanley Bailey are becoming “collectable”, their prices are skyrocketing. Record planes are still very affordable and often over looked by “collectors”. And Stanley has begun making planes in England again, though not cheap, they are affordable, and certainly very good quality.
Fantastic video Rex! Love your channel mate one of my favourite channels on UA-cam! Keep up the good work! Got my Grandads old Stanley Plane think it's a No.4, I need to renovate. - It's not terrible but he was a cabinet maker/furniture maker and joiner before the war and after. For sentimental reasons I want to get his old plane in working condition to use myself. I know it's been used by my dad about 20 or 30 years ago for one or two odd jobs, but it's not been used since and was in my house when a flood happened with all my other stuff and sat in cupboard with damp air in house for 18months as insurance refused to pay out! So I'm dreading looking in there to see if it's all rusted up! Anyhow I've been collecting some old school hand tools from people who were retiring or passed away and family getting rid. Got a few nice old tools not show pieces but literally as they were last time they were used, which I like cos it's authentic and you know they're not messed with. A quick clean, oil, sharpen of blades drills, brace, jigs or whatever and hopefully all be good to go! Anyway I've been following your channel and really spurred me on to try and get things sorted so I can start my woodworking hobby soon as house is sorted! I'm also learning a TON! AND probably how to NOT ruin the tools I have got! Lol 🤣😂 Cheers from London 👍🏴🇬🇧
I am really impress by the quality of your production (videos/montage) and your diction. Extremely professional & excellent preparation. Thank you and congratulation.
Rex, I love your videos. Yes, old vintage deep-dives are awfully interesting. Please do some more, especially if they feature real-world usage like this video did. 👍🏻👍🏻
I recently got into tool restoring and a couple months ago I came across an older guy selling a small carpenters chest with some tools in it for $40. From the pictures I could see some good panel saws so I decided to check it out. Rock up to this guys garage, pop open the box... couple of rusty disstons, but one was a d-8 ripsaw with the thumb hole. Alright, cool. Little farther down, craftsman duplex fillister plane. I’m almost convinced to buy this box. Dig a bit deeper, lo and behold- a Bedrock 605. I kept on my best poker face and said: “So you were thinking $40? Hmmm... yeah I think I can do that.”
I use my Grandfather’s Craftsman Bailey #4. (Circa 1950) it’s an excellent plane. I agree with the comment from Cad, if it’s good enough for Paul Sellers, I’m in! Great video, Rex!
I got my Bedrock 1920's #(60)4 1/2 for 60 euro, 1930's #(60)5 1/2 for 40 and #(60)7 for 200 (it was literary unused, mint condition 1935 model, I could not resist i and love to use this plane). You can find them cheaper if you are lucky. But to be honest, recently when I look for "Bedrock" on ebay I usually find a set of screws, cap iron or just sole for those prices now. Maybe it's the central banks money printing hitting old collectibles with high inflation first ;)
Gotta agree, my Baileys do everything I need for them to do as long as I keep the blade sharp. I also agree on adjusting the mouth, it's something I rarely even think about doing. If you are just focused on performance then the Bailey wins versus the Bedrocks because there's too little difference to justify the price differential, but I'd hasten to add, though, that not all Baileys are the same, and you can pay a whole lot for one because it has three patent dates while the one from the 1950's will be cheaper, better designed and not worn completely out. Still, any Bailey in decent shape that you can get for $30 at a flea market is going to be worth the money.
To throw a few extra curve balls; the early Bailey pattern planes also have quite large flat surfaces for the frog (like the Bedrock), and the early Bedrock planes had curved sides like the Bailey models!
I'm about to buy a Bailey No. 5, a Bedrock No. 4, and another nameless No. 4 together for $30 on OfferUp. I was really only interested in the Bailey and had written off the other two as bonus planes. Excellent timing with this video!
The real reason Stanley came up with a more substantial version of their plane was to offer the pro crowd something that would compete with imported infill style Norton’s and Mathiesons etc. I restored from junkers a full set of Bedrocks as my main user set (including #2). I truly enjoyed the full restoration process including electrolysis of the rust, honing the beds and using real Japan for the blacking. But I did put away the Stanley cutters and used Hock irons and chip breakers. They simply gave me an alternative to Lie-Nielsen although I use some of those too such as low angle jack. But I would agree that the Hock irons are probably the main reason they are awesome
Hey Good video. I have a range of 18 planes in both Bailey and Bedrock and I totally agree with you. Providing both are sharpened and set correctly, they both perform equally well. I didn't chose the Bedrocks specifically for the design, they just happened to be available at the time. I agree with the last guys comment, If the Bailey design is good enough for Paul and many other craftsmen its good enough for me. So when a lot of these guys get well known and start to make big money they often seem to get more expensive planes and other tools like LN and V for instance and I don't blame them for treating themselves but in reality the difference in performance is very slight. Sure you have to tune up a Stanley or a Record to make it work really well ( but it's not hard ) and these others often work well straight out of the box, but at the end of the day I would rather spend the extra money on wood.
I have Baileys and Bedrocks. I do love my Bed Rocks way more than my Baileys but you are right, there is essentially no difference besides a little convenience
Rex, the old timers like my Granddad (a professional carpenter and woodworker from the early 1900's to the 1960's) who had both, and the Bedrock conferred an economic (read time) advantage only when one had to make frequent adjustments to the plane's settings. Otherwise, the standard Bailey design is -- as you found out -- good enough for just about anything out there. I still have his Bailey planes from the 1920's and 1930's. and use them all the time. Let me tell you, they sing in my hands.
Perhaps that would be a good theme for some upcoming videos, tools that are only good if you are a woodworker. I will say I have gone the extra mile for old blade steel such as I Sorby plane irons, Marples chisels and old brass backed saws, you can tell the difference in how long these take the sharpen and how long they keep an edge and as for the I Sorby plane iron it's twice the thickness of a normal iron and keeps a good edge for months (only found in wooden planes)
Bought three baileys at a yard sale. Two where fine and one had a no blade. That one is used as decoration in the house. The others I hade set up as scrub plane and one as smoothing plane. Never had to adjust the mouth besides after the clean-up when I bought them. Using them for years now.
I would have to agree with you, having a set of bailey planes and a set of bedrocks, One part of the history is that the original bedrocks were round sided like the Bailey and stanley did the flat side so that people could tell them apart. Bedrocks are better yes, but at the cost that they are today I would stick to a bailey the 604 that you had in the video now can fetch $400, it's really insane
Totally agree... I have one 605 that I genuinely like, but it cost me $40 and my #5 type 11 is easily as effective but it cost about the same after I spent the time to restore it. In practical use I would rather have a low knob Bailey than a high knob Bedrock.
Good stuff as always. The proof the Bedrock isn't sufficiently superior is that the Bailey pattern didn't go extinct nearly immediately. People did like it, or Stanley wouldn't have made it for 30 years. Regarding extinction, wooden smoothers, jack, and jointer planes went the way of the dodo very quickly once the iron planes came out.
Great video subject! I have a collection of bedrock #3-7 they work beautifully once tuned up. No other plan can compare. Only kidding, they are just sexier and us wood nerds need all the sexiness we can get! It’s also nice to own the original version of a Lie Nielsen at a fraction the cost.
Great analysis. I have a 5 for dimensioning, a 7 for flattening, and a 4 for smoothing which takes care of all my bench plane needs. One thing you didn't discuss is how good a plane do you need for a given task. I have a bailey 5 which works great for dimensioning. My 7 is a Clifton that I got a great deal on but I question the value of the bedrock design for flattening. The one place I want pretty much the best plane possible is my smoother. That's the most finicky application and that's why I have a LN bronze 4.
I'm glad you made this video. There are a lot of good planes out there that get ignored. Bedrock is ok. But I would rather have a Bailey . Sears had Stanley made planes, and the handyman planes also get snubbed a lot also.
Sears had three or four lines of planes, if I remember right. I've got one of 'em - a #5 clone - I don't remember the brand name, though (not Craftsman). I don't think it was made by Stanley. The construction wasn't very good. I tuned it best I could and converted it into a scrub plane, and it works very well for that.
1. What a bed of hornets you'll have stirred up with that one! But, you're right. Maybe a person who's on the tools 5 days a week, 8 hours a day as a profession might justify it, but most others don't and won't notice any real difference. 2. Absolutely love the term "cork sniffer". I'm using that one. I'll give you credit for it though.
Except if a Bailey #4 is good enough for Paul Sellers to use for 50 years for hours a day, I seriously doubt many others would truly be able to justify the difference. He makes a point the most folks issues with their planes are that they didn't sharpen them properly or often enough, and after that, the differences probably fall into the "user skill" category, which won't matter what tool is used.
That's great information as usual, Rex. I have avoided ebay for years, so I have had a heck of a time getting my hands on any kind of bailey style plane. Our local flea markets haven't had anything when I've gone and Craigslist hasn't hit on a search in months. I have been tempted to just buy new from WoodCraft or Veritas, but I haven't been able to pull that trigger. Guess I'm still on the hunt!
As always very informative and interesting, Rex, which we all know don't always come in the same package. I went to check on The Handplane book and for a change the hardcover was cheaper! Of course when I go to buy it, it'll be back to normal.
I know Paul Sellers would tell you go smooth sole every time. Corrugated sole planes have are more likely to get gummed up on the sole with dust or shavings and are usually a bit more expensive anyway because of their collectobility.
All they do is reduce friction...so corrugations on anything smaller than the 5.5 is just kinda silly. No.5.5 - No.8 you can actually tell a difference. Furthermore those corrugations are a blessing when it comes to re-flatting a sole.
@@trumpetguy8371 I got into woodworking after several fruitless tries at making furniture. So I started my research and saw that I need the very basic tools, between them, a hand plane. So I went to the shop and found only stanley corrugated sole planes ranging from 20 to 25 bucks. A month later at another store, I found only stanley flat sole planes ranging from 25 to 40 bucks. I'm from Chile, so I guess that's because the demand here.
Agreed. I have a set of Bedrocks, and see no difference (collecting for the hell of it- probably sell them later). BUT- I have a set of old Stanley type 5s that all work great, and my every day No. 5 is a type 4 Stanley- made about 1874-1884 (before they had a lateral lever), all original, and works great.
I agree that most of the value of planes comes down to scarcity. I realized that when I found a No. 212 scaper in the garage and found it selling for over a thousand dollars. Apparently not many were sold and they didn't make too many to begin with. So even though the plane was sort of a failure it has a high collector value.
Yeah, I totally agree! I guess that it would really make sense if they had the same price, but this way? Ouch! 😬 Anyway, stay safe there with your family, Rex! 🖖😊
I'd still like to try out a Bedrock for the experience (one day I might be able to land a Keen Kutter K5. One day), but I can agree that "collector mindset and influence" can affect perceptions between the two. That said, a Bailey with a Bedrock style of mouth adjustment would be nice.
@@MatthewBuntyn I think they also have a Bailey style of mouth adjustment since they were patterned off the early Bedrock design, which is pretty cool.
The Stanley Bailey type 7 or 8, or thereabouts, has a frog mating surface that is larger than later models. So it could be said it has some bedrock characteristic. photos.app.goo.gl/xWV1bWhJz4rV6dnN8
Bailey is good enough for Paul Sellers, so it's good enough for me.
True, but Paul Sellers is like the pool shark that says he will play you using only a mop handle.😆
I've fallen in love with another Paul Sellers plane brand ... Record. Avoid the later "Irwin Record" planes and you're pretty much guaranteed hefty, straight hand planes. I have a few Stanley planes, but rarely use 'em anymore.
He also uses Aldi chisels lol
@@kennnva551 Not sure about Record. If vintage, probably great. The new Record Tools I see on the market these days are Harbor Freight quality. I wouldn't buy them.
@@allanwolfe6071 You're correct about the newer models. I avoid the Record-Irwin line up, but the original series and the Record-Marples variety of planes are very good. Record and Stanley were both manufactured in Sheffield, England, but the Record castings were a little more robust. One fellow recently told me his Record #05 weighs about a pound more than his Stanley #5.
I'm the proud owner of a Bedrock #604 smoother. I found it at a yard sale and they wanted $15 for it. I couldn't say, "Would you take $12?" fast enough.
Where do you live?!
Would they? ;-)
bahahaha god bless you
😮❤
Lucky, I found a bedrock no 607 for $50
I follow Rex's videos.
I rarely comment.
This is a very good comparison review. If one wants a fine mouth. Buy a second one. No! A third one. $90 to $100 gets you a scrub plane, a general service plane and a super fine, extra sharp, nasty grain specialist smoother.
Thanks Mr Krueger.
I have 3 no. 4's at the ready and have given away another 2. I agree, for the price of a bailey this works out pretty well.
If you want to adjust the mouth, you can buy a second Stanley plane to set up with a closed mouth, and still come out at a fraction of the price of the Bed Rock, and once set up there's no adjustment beyond grabbing the other plane.
Which even eliminates the benefit of having a Bedrock back in the day as a professional who could potentially benefit from spending less time adjusting the mouth, as it seems unlikely it wouldn't be faster still to swap planes.
Excellent point.
Excellent point... I have a cheesy buck bros No° I filed the mouth and tuned as my dedicated scrub plane, but the second Bailey is an excellent idea for folks on a budget who really want a dedicated medium mouth or who rely on others to set up their close smoothing mouth configuration and don’t want to touch/fix/break/ruin that “prefect zen like setup they’ve achieved on their 150+ year old work of art. They’d do well to never ever touch that frog again 🤪🤪🤪
i think the real reason why these didn't catch on is what happens when you start woodworking.
so imagine you start woodworking, possibly a as an apprentice training under a master who's likely keeping a cut from any revenue you generate. you won't be having a lot of money, so when you get around to buying your first plane, you'll get the bailey and then, by the time you're good enough to make money on your own, you're completely satisfied using the bailey to which you might have also become emotionally attached by this point.
finally, when you're a master, taking an apprentice of your own, guess which plane he'll see you using and guess which plane you'll be recommending and guess which plane your apprentice is going to pick up when he gets around to it?
"And remember: switching to your sidearm is always faster than reloading"
I know that an infill plane would probably have the same verdict....
But I still don’t understand how my life will ever be totally complete without one of those gorgeous works of art. 😁
I don't know! I'm going to have to take the plunge on one of those at some point.
My Grandfather was a professional carpenter and joiner and when he died, I inherited some of his tools including a Stanley Bailey Plane. Over 70 years old and still works a treat.
You're outlook on this hobby is so refreshing, really appreciate the time you take sir.
I picked up a Bailey #4 at a swap meet (like you suggested) and restored it (based on your videos). I got that plane for $1. Just last week I saw a Bed Rock 604 for $75. Thanks to this video, I took a pass. Thanks for saving me money Rex!! I appreciate all the great information for us beginners. 👍
Thanks, I can stop thinking that I am somehow missing something by replacing my $25 planes with $180 ones. Be happy with what you have!
That's advice for all of life!
Very enjoyable and informative. Thanks young man. I am going to stick with my transitional, two grizzlys and the ones in your plans set. Between your plans, Paul's videos and James videos I pretty much have all I will ever need.
If it works, and you ENJOY USING IT, nothing else matters. I love my veritas 4 smoother, but I also love my vintage Stanley sweetheart 5 1/4, plus I restored it back myself, which adds to the joy of using it. In fact, I love both my old vintage as well as my premium planes. The only plane I hate using is my wood river 5, it's heavy, feels cheap, and unless I need a lot of control on depth of cut, I now use my wooden 5 from Auburn over my wood river. I really don't like that plane, and it's a bedrock...
It's worth pointing out that I'm more comfortable bringing out the "cheaper" handtools for work, because in the case some idiot drops it and causes serious damage, I CAN replace an "ordinary Bailey" relatively easily...
...NOT so much the premium, cork-sniffer Plane. ;o)
$180 is crazy high for a bedrock #4 I think $80-$100 is a more appropriate target.
As a fellow plane nerd I totally agree with your assessment. Lets be honest we dont NEED half the planes we have, but they are fun to hunt down and cool to have 👍
I've had a Bailey for over 50 years (yes I am an old timer) and it is my go to plane for everything. Once you get used to how to make the adjustments, it just becomes part of the workflow. You did a great job and it made me feel good about my old plane. Thanks Rex.
I own and use both Baileys and Bedrocks. For me, this video was a test of your honesty in evaluation. You passed with flying co;ors. but I figured yo would. Also, as Paul Sellers points out, when you adjust the mouth on the Bedrock don't forget to adjust the iron before the first cut to prevent surprises. The frog bed on the body of a Bedrock slopes. Baileys are flat. Thanks, Rex
Again, credible, fair, scientific, well worth the time to watch. Thanks, Rex.
I wanted to comment on this just to add more value to this video for Rex because this is probably one of the best informational videos about plane value and difference that I’ve ever seen. Thanks Rex!
This is another informative video.
Thanks for adding the term "cork-sniffer" to my vocabulary. I will get good use from it.
I didn't invent it, but I'm glad you like it!
Calling someone a cork sniffer is like calling a knife a people opener
Reminds me of the cork soaker skit from SNL with Janet Jackson.
I paid $38 for my Bailey no 4 on ebay. Seller said it needed work. When I got it I touched up the blade and tried it out. PERFECTION! I plan to clean it up at some point, but I kinda like the patina.
I also picked up a no 5 rust bucket for $10 at a flea market. It was rusted up so bad I had to replace the blade and chip breaker ($12 on eBay) and after doing a complete restoration it is the jewel of my shop. Special prominent shelf and all!!
Love the channel and your content.
Thanks for the incredible dive in there, Rex.
I appreciate the work you're putting into the handtool community, and helping to really open the way to a whole new generation of enthusiasts by smashing down barriers to entry, and demystifying things like this.
Your videos are high up on my recommended "reading list" for new apprentices!
Got my first hand plane about 2 weeks ago. You channel has been very helpful. Thanks so much. Keep up the good work
I think most of the problems occur with people who dont know how to tune their planes. I thought my Bailey wasnt as good as my other planes but it was because i had no idea how to tune. I actually learned how with your videos.
I was lucky to find three Bedrock planes at a bargain price a few years back, three different sizes, all for $90. I couldn't pass them up, and I'm glad to have them. But, I have to admit, part of the reason was the "mystique" surrounding them and their scarcity. It strikes me that you have done a fair test and appraisal. So, thank you for that, it was very enjoyable.
I think planes have a special place among craftsmen and collectors because when is use, they feel like an extension of the woodworker's body. They give engaging feedback and the worker can sense the nature of the wood. For me, no other woodworking tool is such a pleasure to use.
Leave it to the "cork sniffers." I love it! And I will leave the Bed Rocks to the cork sniffers.
Probably a good idea!
@@RexKrueger Lol, brother, you're holding a Bedrock you paid a lot of money for at the same time you deride it as being for "cork sniffers"! It's okay to like something and pay extra money for it because it's just cool.
Everyone should have idea what's out there. Recently, I was looking at this plane, and the body was red, while the frog was black. It looked very well made, but I didn't recognize the name. Then I looked further, and there was plane with a black body, and a red frog. This one was stamped Miller Falls. Neither look used once, and someone had an idea to switch the frogs around. Both were Miller Falls, but one was made for another company. The guy wanted twenty five, which was the going price, except they were new, never used. I only had the money for one, so I got the black bodied Miller Falls. It was smoothing plane, and work as nice as your willing to sharpen the blade. After the lock down is over, I'll go and see if the other one is there. Why spend money, when cheaper works just as good? Still, sometimes people sell stuff, and they have no idea what it is. Honestly, if you can find a Norris smoothing plane, and it's cheap. Cool, it great to be informed. If you did find a Norris plane, you could sell it, and but new cork sniffers.
Call me dumb but I would have thought what is most important is a very sharp blade 😂. Regards Jim UK
So, no, unless pehaps you ever ever will only own one plane.
Hey Rex, I really hope you see this comment. I have been watching you for a while now and have begun referring you as " The Plane Master" . Looking around on the internet, I saw people making plane shavings lamps and other stuff. What really caught my eye was the plane shaving Yosegi. ALL the creators and craftsmen I looked at tried and stumbled at making Yosegi with limited success. Then I thought, I would really like to see The Plane Master take a crack at the Yosegi plane shavings. You have a great technique with a plane, better than the majority of the other craftsmen out there, so this would be a great challenge for you as well as a possibility for making more simple Yosegi for the common garage woodworker. Thanks and Cheers from Canada!!
Maybe I'll give it shot! Who know, maybe I can do it....but it looks hard!
Thanks for another informative and honest review. I did wonder what all the noise was about. My #4 came from my dad so it's totally irrelevant what brand or type it is. It's absolutely worth spending the time restoring and tuning a standard Bailey #4. And despite being a total newb, I'm getting shavings I can see through.
It''s really not that hard and with a Bailey, it's worth the investment.
This was such a cool video. I loved the breakdown of the difference in function, system tests to validate worth, and assessment of why they are priced as such. Would LOVE to see one on different vintage saws.
Since Furniture college I have bought a lot of old cheap Stanley and Record planes to refurbish and use, but never afforded to buy a Bedrock.
Thank you for doing the comparison so I don't have to.
I just bought a box of junky planes and one of them turned out to be a Bed Rock 604! I'm going to follow Rex's advice in his wire-wheel-on-bench-grinder vid to get it back on its feet again and then turn into a cork sniffing plane snob. I might have to retire my Footprint beater. Maybe I'll pimp the ride and make a fancy handle (I'll have to learn the wierd words for handle and such) and gold-plated something on it, like the springy blade hold down thingy!
This is going to rock. (Or maybe it'll be sick - can't recall what the youngsters say these days when they mean really good.)
Thanks, Rex!
Thanks, Rex! This is my favorite video yet of yours. You've done a great job of clearing out the cluttered misinformation about these. Well done! I suppose if I ever want to quickly adjust the mouth of my bailey patterns I'll just buy another and save both the expense of a bedrock, and the need for adjustment at all, since I'll have one on the shelf at the setting I'd like.
I found an old 605 1/2 bedrock in my schools tool room. Collecting dust in the back of a cabinet. I cleaned it up and used it the entire school year. Paid my dept $60 to keep it at the end of the year.
"collectors and cork-sniffers!" LMAO I love how down to earth you are.
Thank you for explaining the main difference and preventing me in the future from looking for a Bedrock plane. I think the term "cork sniffer" is good not only for hand tools, but for many more.. like musicians. They listen to a professional, look for the maker of his instrument, buy the same thing and believe they can automatically play like a pro. Except there is a little detail: Practice, practice, practice.
So true. My late father was a professional photographer, and he often said when asked to justify his prices to those who said they could just go pick up a camera and "do the same thing" -- "You can hand anyone a paint brush, but that doesn't make them a Picasso..." Craftsmanship matters in all areas!
Clear, concise, honest no and bullshit good advice !!! Great as always Rex !! Sure the bedrock is nice and all but the prices people ask for them are a bit ludicrous!!
Thankyou, Rex... It's been a couple years since I actually first laid my eyes (and hands) on a Bedrock... The price was a mildly negotiable $125... compared to a five-gallon bucket of "decent" baileys that I restored with about $30 invested in the whole thing... AND I thought I must be either stupid or crazy, but I couldn't see any difference in the handling, cuts, nothing... I mean, I get the "feeling" of it being more stable, but that doesn't necessarily impress me. Like you pointed out, "The proof is in actual work getting done."
AND you nailed it. The Bedrock is ONLY worth so much more because it's so much more rare than the ordinary Bailey type. I'll admit to a certain amount of tool collecting, just to have the collection... At the same time, I use every tool in the shop sooner or later... OR I determine that I don't really need the damn thing and sell it. It's as true for the metal cut-off saw as it is for the combination wood/iron Bailey type Jointing Plane... or any of the rebate and trim planes laying around the place.
AND of course, "HELL YES! We want to hear and see more about the vintage and affordable handtools... restorations... frustrations... trials and tribulations... ALL OF IT!"
TOOL PORN! TOOL PORN! TOOL PORN!!! ;o)
Part of it is that they just look cool and are were sold as premium tool. Their function is close enough. I have a great love for a Stanley 4 1/2, 5 1/2, a number 10 carriage plane, and a carriage rabbet block plane. Finding them is part of the experience that makes using them more special to me. I believe Bedrocks are a premium plane and why I’d spend on it. I think the price gap between a bedrock and normal Bailey is only getting smaller. I’d also reason that the price for a new Bedrock may have effected their place in the market but there were definitely enough tool snobs and professionals with the love for them to sell oceans of them. The number of Bedrocks out there may be small compared to all Stanley planes but it’s not insignificant either. People did buy them despite the price and seeing through any marketing hype.
The first plane I bought was a 5 1/2 bedrock I picked up at a farm auction. The only thing I had to compare it to was my grandfather's #5 which was/is ok. But right out of the gate the bedrock to me has been far superior. With less chatting, that is..none. The bedrock was so easy to setup. Sad to say I have never to this day taken the time to setup my grandfather's #5. The 5 1/2 bedrock is such a pleasure to use.
I do take the point the Bailey planes work just fine. my everyday workhorse is a #4 lakeside. Which I am sure Stanley or Millerfalls made.
#4s are so hard to come by for me. I prefer to find my hand tools....anyway good video.
I'm a turner so not much of a hand plane guy. But your comparison of the two types seems quite comprehensive to me. It would appear your conclusions are very accurate. Thank you for sharing.
LOL @ Cork Sniffers !!!! Been missing my Rex fix lately due to work and life but it was good to come back and see this one... I ALMOST bought a couple of Bedrocks a guy had a couple weeks back but opted for several Defiance and an Eclipse that were in far better condition and more in my wheelhouse
Good video. I have a type 4 603C that I bought many years ago. It is a nice plane from around 1908 or so. I have a Bailey 5 1/2 from 3 or 4 years later, perhaps 1912. It has the 2 1/4 iron. I have a Bailey 7 from the early 30s. All are in great condition. All do the same job. I paid $75 for the 603, about 35 for the 5 1/2 and the 7 was free. My biggest plane regret is passing up a 602C for $275 about 5 years ago. I was going to buy it and my wife talked me out of it.
Crazy you posted this in June. I just picked up a Bedrock 605 yesterday for 10 bucks!
Excellent real talk.
Break it down rex & keep busting these myths.i think it's awesome that you take the time to share Wisdom, (not knowledge) on real experience as a result of your own research,time&energy spent learning,making mistakes,or just plane experience over time for a real life lesson.
The trouble I have with Bedrocks is that the seat of the frog to the body, while well designed, is inclined toward the mouth. The Bailey design has a level bedding. So, with the Bedrock, if you tighten the mouth, you also increase the depth of cut, which means you may have to withdraw the iron a bit. On a Bailey, the frog moves parallel to the sole of the plane and the iron edge stays where it was set. All that aside though, if your chip breaker is positioned properly near the edge of the iron, the need for a narrow mouth is minimized or eliminated. You can usually handle reversing grain and knots with little if any trouble. Picked up that trick on The English Wood Worker, BTW. The selling point that Stanley emphasized for the Bedrocks was that they reduced chatter, which is actually caused by thin, flexing irons, so the chip breaker and cap are much more important than Bailey ever intimates. In use the iron flexes away from the frog, so no matter how nicely machined the frog is, so unless the chip breaker and cap iron do their job, you get chatter. This is the main impetus for modern, thicker irons.
I totally agree!
Ah, I love the smell of a good hype debunking in the morning!
Thanks for a great video, I've always wondered if a so called "premium" plane was that much better than a well tuned and sharpened Bailey. Judging by the number of other UA-cam woodworking guru's (Paul Sellers, Rob Cosman, James Wright, etc.), that all reach for a Bailey #4, I'd say you're spot on in your assessment!
Conrad Aquino Rob Cosman’s go-to plane is a Wood River #5-1/2, which is a copy of the Bedrock.
When has rob cosman ever reached for a stanley?
I would say that premium planes are clearly better...they're just out of reach for the average craftsman .
@@lawrencebombac7391 I didn't say Stanley, I said a Bailey #4, which is not exclusive to Stanley.
You can adjust the non-bedrock version on the fly by just moving the frog forward. Assuming everything is tight - but not too tight - it all works fine and nothing moves. I think Paul Sellers mentions this in one of his tutorials. I've tried it and it works!
Thanks for breaking it down for us Rex!
Until recently I have only had wooden, continental style handplanes. While thriftshopping I found my first Stanley plane a No. 65 blockplane.
Imagine the rush I got when I realized that I would only have to spend 4 swiss bucks for such a magnificent tool! Damn good day that was!
I don't own any Bedrock planes, but I do have several Bailey pattern Stanleys. I also own a few WR planes that are patterned after the BR and I have to say they are my go to handplanes. Great video as usual Rex, thanks.
I got myself a great quality Stanley No 5 plane (patent 1918750) for 46 bucks on ebay. Couldn't be happier with it.
Excellent advice Rex. I have had both, including a full suite of Lie Nielsen Bedrock-pattern bronze planes. I retreated, sold most of my expensive planes, and invested in new blades and chip-breakers where needed for my Bailey-pattern planes. That all done, my favorites are my two Bailey-pattern 5-1/4 planes, all original. One is set wide and the other is set narrow. Why the 5-1/4? Slightly longer than a #4, but enough narrower to accommodate my failing 71 year strength but excessively large hands. Most #4 totes are very tight for my fat fists. My #4 is an English made Record Bailey-pattern type I purchased new in 1986. It was a terrific plane right out of the box and has more “grip room” than most #4’s. I feel planes are like shoes. Size 10s from Adidias don’t fit like size 10s from Nike. I can’t fit my big grubby mitts into the tote of a Wood River #4 Bedrock-pattern plane, but their smaller #3 fits fine. The #4 tote is too close to the blade/chip-breaker assembly, the #3’s blade assembly and tote sets further apart in spite of being smaller overall. Go figure... Your mileage will definitely vary!
Thank you very much! From another guy with large hands who thought about buying the Wood River #4 plane! During this COVID-19 lockdown, WoodCraft only does curbside pickup, so I can't go into the store and put my hands on the tools prior to purchase...
Steven you are the first person I’ve ever seen who likes a No5 1/4 and can give a good reason why!
FYI, Bailey #5-1/4 planes were the Grab First planes in my 8th grade woodworking class. I remember we had Blocks, 5-1/4s, & 7s. Might had others but that was 60 years ago so not crystal clear any more. You had to be in 9th grade to use table saws, jointers, etc.. Only power tools available to 8th graders were the lathe and bandsaw. Since I had to take a foreign language in 9th I only got 1 year of shop, all hand tools except for a turning project and a sculpted shelf roughed out on the bandsaw. That’s right, 14 year-old kids operating shapers, table saws, jointers, etc. Who says we’re asking more of students today? Not more today, just different. My grandson knows C++, Python, Arduinos, & Raspberry Pi’s, but I had to teach him about the sharp end of the chisel.
I had a very similar experience. I resurrected a rusty old garage sale Bedrock jack plane for a friend restoring it to like new condition without regard for "patina" and similar collector nonsense. I'm a machinist with a full home machine shop so I can do that sort of work competently. I'm a home woodworker too and I had no lack of squirrely grain remnant boards in my collection. I ran my Stanley Bailey user against the Bedrock for most of a day on nasty grained boards. There wasn't a nickle's worth of objective difference in performance berween the $240 Bedrock (collector evaluation) and my $30 Bailey I inherited from Dad.
From this, I conclude that except for the Bedrock's slightly more convenient mouth adjustment, the only difference between the two planes is esthetics and a hugely inflated price. Operational differences perceived by enthusiasts cannot survive a blindfold test. Therefore the superiority is pure hype.
BTW, I monkeyed with one of the earlier Anant clones of the Baily pattern plane. It took about half a day of TLC to bring its performance up to that of my Bailey. I also compared my Bailey to a Lee Valley out of the box and found no perceptable differences except the Lee Valley was a bit heavier and it did have a superior iron.
I think the moral of the story is the Bailey pattern hand plane was a superior design, representing the end stage of a long evolution of hand planes from wood to transitional, to all metal. The fine points may be argued forever but to my way of thinking the test is time to plane a rough board to a satisfactory surface. If there isn't a nickel's worth of difference from one plane to the other in the finished product (reserving edge holding for the iron as a separate variable,) then after the time spent in set-up, money spent in excess of the basic tool is money spent on intangibles and hype.
Shop carefully
I inherited a Bedrock #605. It works fine. In the 1990s I bought a #5 (1205?) Stanley. I used both for years (cabin framing and finishing) and basically thought they were the same plane made in different years, so I never understood the hype. I never adjusted the frog.
It did win out over the cheap 90's model in the long run. The 1205 developed cracks around its mouth that I had to "level" with a claw hammer.
Thank you for the side by side comparison. I always wondered what it the real difference in the resulting work. Very well done!
Cork-sniffer is absolutely something I will use and it’s an equally valuable takeaway to what I just learned about planes here today haha.
Love it. I like to think I'm a woodworker, but I'll admit to some tool collecting and I do have an unnatural desire to have some Bed Rocks. But if I'm honest, I'll have to admit that you nailed it with your "woodworking cult" comment - that is so totally accurate. I'll settle for ogling at yours for now though; my high end tool buying I think has stopped at some Steve Knight woodies. Lie Neilsen et. al. I'd love to have, but I can't justify the cost for what I do.
Well said!
I inherited a bedrock 606 and a Bailey type 4. I believe they’re both type 11. I want to use them. Thanks for showing the frog adjustment on both
150 is a great deal for the BR. They are now in the 3-400 dollar range easily. If you want a great tool, go with the Bailey. Otherwise, if you want the BR style, you may want to look at a Wood River. I bought a 4-1/2 and couldn't be happier. the modern touches like minimal backlash, good blades, and fine adjustment make them a pleasure to work with.
Couldn’t but fail to agree more. There are a lot of things like that. Even Stanley Bailey are becoming “collectable”, their prices are skyrocketing. Record planes are still very affordable and often over looked by “collectors”. And Stanley has begun making planes in England again, though not cheap, they are affordable, and certainly very good quality.
Fantastic video Rex! Love your channel mate one of my favourite channels on UA-cam! Keep up the good work!
Got my Grandads old Stanley Plane think it's a No.4, I need to renovate. - It's not terrible but he was a cabinet maker/furniture maker and joiner before the war and after. For sentimental reasons I want to get his old plane in working condition to use myself. I know it's been used by my dad about 20 or 30 years ago for one or two odd jobs, but it's not been used since and was in my house when a flood happened with all my other stuff and sat in cupboard with damp air in house for 18months as insurance refused to pay out! So I'm dreading looking in there to see if it's all rusted up!
Anyhow I've been collecting some old school hand tools from people who were retiring or passed away and family getting rid. Got a few nice old tools not show pieces but literally as they were last time they were used, which I like cos it's authentic and you know they're not messed with. A quick clean, oil, sharpen of blades drills, brace, jigs or whatever and hopefully all be good to go!
Anyway I've been following your channel and really spurred me on to try and get things sorted so I can start my woodworking hobby soon as house is sorted! I'm also learning a TON! AND probably how to NOT ruin the tools I have got! Lol 🤣😂
Cheers from London 👍🏴🇬🇧
Thank you Rex!
I love tool's!
I love history!
Put the two together and Shazam!
"Cork sniffers" I love that too!
I am really impress by the quality of your production (videos/montage) and your diction. Extremely professional & excellent preparation. Thank you and congratulation.
Rex, I love your videos. Yes, old vintage deep-dives are awfully interesting. Please do some more, especially if they feature real-world usage like this video did. 👍🏻👍🏻
Really good comparison, thanks Rex. Also great to see Hack's book being promoted. You know how highly I rate this!
But but.. the aesthetics of a little Bedrock plane with a little Sweetheart iron!? It’s so pretty!! But also, this was an awesome video, you da man!
I recently got into tool restoring and a couple months ago I came across an older guy selling a small carpenters chest with some tools in it for $40. From the pictures I could see some good panel saws so I decided to check it out. Rock up to this guys garage, pop open the box... couple of rusty disstons, but one was a d-8 ripsaw with the thumb hole. Alright, cool. Little farther down, craftsman duplex fillister plane. I’m almost convinced to buy this box. Dig a bit deeper, lo and behold- a Bedrock 605. I kept on my best poker face and said: “So you were thinking $40? Hmmm... yeah I think I can do that.”
I use my Grandfather’s Craftsman Bailey #4. (Circa 1950) it’s an excellent plane. I agree with the comment from Cad, if it’s good enough for Paul Sellers, I’m in! Great video, Rex!
I got my Bedrock 1920's #(60)4 1/2 for 60 euro, 1930's #(60)5 1/2 for 40 and #(60)7 for 200 (it was literary unused, mint condition 1935 model, I could not resist i and love to use this plane). You can find them cheaper if you are lucky. But to be honest, recently when I look for "Bedrock" on ebay I usually find a set of screws, cap iron or just sole for those prices now. Maybe it's the central banks money printing hitting old collectibles with high inflation first ;)
Love the Bailey I got for $15 AUD. Cleaned up nice and cuts great
Gotta agree, my Baileys do everything I need for them to do as long as I keep the blade sharp. I also agree on adjusting the mouth, it's something I rarely even think about doing. If you are just focused on performance then the Bailey wins versus the Bedrocks because there's too little difference to justify the price differential, but I'd hasten to add, though, that not all Baileys are the same, and you can pay a whole lot for one because it has three patent dates while the one from the 1950's will be cheaper, better designed and not worn completely out. Still, any Bailey in decent shape that you can get for $30 at a flea market is going to be worth the money.
To throw a few extra curve balls; the early Bailey pattern planes also have quite large flat surfaces for the frog (like the Bedrock), and the early Bedrock planes had curved sides like the Bailey models!
I'm about to buy a Bailey No. 5, a Bedrock No. 4, and another nameless No. 4 together for $30 on OfferUp. I was really only interested in the Bailey and had written off the other two as bonus planes. Excellent timing with this video!
sell the bedrock on ebay and get double your money back; someone could effectively you pay for keeping two planes....
@@just-dl Heck no! I'm keeping this Bedrock to use. I don't have a Bailey No. 4 yet.
If I was a patron I would have KNOWN THIS 2 DAYS AGO
The real reason Stanley came up with a more substantial version of their plane was to offer the pro crowd something that would compete with imported infill style Norton’s and Mathiesons etc. I restored from junkers a full set of Bedrocks as my main user set (including #2). I truly enjoyed the full restoration process including electrolysis of the rust, honing the beds and using real Japan for the blacking. But I did put away the Stanley cutters and used Hock irons and chip breakers. They simply gave me an alternative to Lie-Nielsen although I use some of those too such as low angle jack. But I would agree that the Hock irons are probably the main reason they are awesome
I just have three Bailey's. Set one coarse for scrubbing, two for dressing flush and three for fine smoothing. Three sharp irons last longer than one.
Hey Good video. I have a range of 18 planes in both Bailey and Bedrock and I totally agree with you. Providing both are sharpened and set correctly, they both perform equally well. I didn't chose the Bedrocks specifically for the design, they just happened to be available at the time. I agree with the last guys comment, If the Bailey design is good enough for Paul and many other craftsmen its good enough for me. So when a lot of these guys get well known and start to make big money they often seem to get more expensive planes and other tools like LN and V for instance and I don't blame them for treating themselves but in reality the difference in performance is very slight. Sure you have to tune up a Stanley or a Record to make it work really well ( but it's not hard ) and these others often work well straight out of the box, but at the end of the day I would rather spend the extra money on wood.
Great to hear I'll stick with my standard Bailey. Thank you 👍
I have Baileys and Bedrocks. I do love my Bed Rocks way more than my Baileys but you are right, there is essentially no difference besides a little convenience
Rex, the old timers like my Granddad (a professional carpenter and woodworker from the early 1900's to the 1960's) who had both, and the Bedrock conferred an economic (read time) advantage only when one had to make frequent adjustments to the plane's settings. Otherwise, the standard Bailey design is -- as you found out -- good enough for just about anything out there. I still have his Bailey planes from the 1920's and 1930's. and use them all the time. Let me tell you, they sing in my hands.
Good video I have several Bailey's and when I see a Bedrock I feel exactly the same I can't see the that the Bedrock is worth all the extra cost!
thanks Rex, love your no nonsense approach.
Perhaps that would be a good theme for some upcoming videos, tools that are only good if you are a woodworker. I will say I have gone the extra mile for old blade steel such as I Sorby plane irons, Marples chisels and old brass backed saws, you can tell the difference in how long these take the sharpen and how long they keep an edge and as for the I Sorby plane iron it's twice the thickness of a normal iron and keeps a good edge for months (only found in wooden planes)
Great video. I love this history and the setup tip. Well done.
Bought three baileys at a yard sale. Two where fine and one had a no blade. That one is used as decoration in the house. The others I hade set up as scrub plane and one as smoothing plane. Never had to adjust the mouth besides after the clean-up when I bought them. Using them for years now.
I would have to agree with you, having a set of bailey planes and a set of bedrocks, One part of the history is that the original bedrocks were round sided like the Bailey and stanley did the flat side so that people could tell them apart. Bedrocks are better yes, but at the cost that they are today I would stick to a bailey the 604 that you had in the video now can fetch $400, it's really insane
Totally agree... I have one 605 that I genuinely like, but it cost me $40 and my #5 type 11 is easily as effective but it cost about the same after I spent the time to restore it. In practical use I would rather have a low knob Bailey than a high knob Bedrock.
Good stuff as always. The proof the Bedrock isn't sufficiently superior is that the Bailey pattern didn't go extinct nearly immediately. People did like it, or Stanley wouldn't have made it for 30 years. Regarding extinction, wooden smoothers, jack, and jointer planes went the way of the dodo very quickly once the iron planes came out.
Great video subject! I have a collection of bedrock #3-7 they work beautifully once tuned up. No other plan can compare. Only kidding, they are just sexier and us wood nerds need all the sexiness we can get! It’s also nice to own the original version of a Lie Nielsen at a fraction the cost.
Great analysis. I have a 5 for dimensioning, a 7 for flattening, and a 4 for smoothing which takes care of all my bench plane needs. One thing you didn't discuss is how good a plane do you need for a given task. I have a bailey 5 which works great for dimensioning. My 7 is a Clifton that I got a great deal on but I question the value of the bedrock design for flattening. The one place I want pretty much the best plane possible is my smoother. That's the most finicky application and that's why I have a LN bronze 4.
I'm glad you made this video. There are a lot of good planes out there that get ignored. Bedrock is ok. But I would rather have a Bailey . Sears had Stanley made planes, and the handyman planes also get snubbed a lot also.
Sears had three or four lines of planes, if I remember right. I've got one of 'em - a #5 clone - I don't remember the brand name, though (not Craftsman).
I don't think it was made by Stanley. The construction wasn't very good. I tuned it best I could and converted it into a scrub plane, and it works very well for that.
hahaha 'cork sniffers' 😁 Great content today Rex! Stay safe. -Mike
1. What a bed of hornets you'll have stirred up with that one! But, you're right. Maybe a person who's on the tools 5 days a week, 8 hours a day as a profession might justify it, but most others don't and won't notice any real difference.
2. Absolutely love the term "cork sniffer". I'm using that one. I'll give you credit for it though.
Except if a Bailey #4 is good enough for Paul Sellers to use for 50 years for hours a day, I seriously doubt many others would truly be able to justify the difference. He makes a point the most folks issues with their planes are that they didn't sharpen them properly or often enough, and after that, the differences probably fall into the "user skill" category, which won't matter what tool is used.
That's great information as usual, Rex. I have avoided ebay for years, so I have had a heck of a time getting my hands on any kind of bailey style plane. Our local flea markets haven't had anything when I've gone and Craigslist hasn't hit on a search in months. I have been tempted to just buy new from WoodCraft or Veritas, but I haven't been able to pull that trigger. Guess I'm still on the hunt!
Can we just stop to appreciate the irony of a master connoisseur of tools being named "Hack" ?
I love your videos. You are funny and informative and I am very proud of you for homeschooling your child!😁 keep up the good work!❤❤❤
As always very informative and interesting, Rex, which we all know don't always come in the same package. I went to check on The Handplane book and for a change the hardcover was cheaper! Of course when I go to buy it, it'll be back to normal.
Need some Rex insights on corrugated sole vs smooth sole!
definitely this. Yo Rex! Do It!
I know Paul Sellers would tell you go smooth sole every time. Corrugated sole planes have are more likely to get gummed up on the sole with dust or shavings and are usually a bit more expensive anyway because of their collectobility.
All they do is reduce friction...so corrugations on anything smaller than the 5.5 is just kinda silly.
No.5.5 - No.8 you can actually tell a difference.
Furthermore those corrugations are a blessing when it comes to re-flatting a sole.
Agree. This would be a great topic.
@@trumpetguy8371 I got into woodworking after several fruitless tries at making furniture. So I started my research and saw that I need the very basic tools, between them, a hand plane. So I went to the shop and found only stanley corrugated sole planes ranging from 20 to 25 bucks. A month later at another store, I found only stanley flat sole planes ranging from 25 to 40 bucks. I'm from Chile, so I guess that's because the demand here.
Agreed. I have a set of Bedrocks, and see no difference (collecting for the hell of it- probably sell them later). BUT- I have a set of old Stanley type 5s that all work great, and my every day No. 5 is a type 4 Stanley- made about 1874-1884 (before they had a lateral lever), all original, and works great.
I agree that most of the value of planes comes down to scarcity. I realized that when I found a No. 212 scaper in the garage and found it selling for over a thousand dollars. Apparently not many were sold and they didn't make too many to begin with. So even though the plane was sort of a failure it has a high collector value.
Your video really shows why the bedrock planes were not a commercial success.
Yeah, I totally agree! I guess that it would really make sense if they had the same price, but this way? Ouch! 😬
Anyway, stay safe there with your family, Rex! 🖖😊
I'd still like to try out a Bedrock for the experience (one day I might be able to land a Keen Kutter K5. One day), but I can agree that "collector mindset and influence" can affect perceptions between the two.
That said, a Bailey with a Bedrock style of mouth adjustment would be nice.
I've been trying to find a good K-series plane for a while. One day…
I have a corrugated kk5 and it's nothing special. It does have a thicker iron than a Bailey but doesn't perform noticeably better
@@davidhutchins3986 "K" not "KK" Ks were made by Stanley, & were based on the Bedrock design
@@MatthewBuntyn I think they also have a Bailey style of mouth adjustment since they were patterned off the early Bedrock design, which is pretty cool.
The Stanley Bailey type 7 or 8, or thereabouts, has a frog mating surface that is larger than later models. So it could be said it has some bedrock characteristic.
photos.app.goo.gl/xWV1bWhJz4rV6dnN8
Excellent info, as always, Rex. Thanks!