YOU in the Mind of Narcissist, Borderline
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- Опубліковано 15 чер 2024
- Narcissist tries to match internal object with external object. So, he will first communicate with the introject, reach an equilibrium or homeostasis with it and then try to impose this entente on the external object.
Similarly, both idealization and devaluation first occur internally, with the internal object which is rendered either perfect or persecutory. Only then will the narcissist attempt to coerce the external object to match the internal one (for example: via projective identification).
The internal state of the introject is always dominant over the internal state of the external object, simply because the narcissist is aware of the former and has no clue about the latter (he lacks empathy and access to positive emotions). So, the answer is yes. This a form of projection.
No, of course not. The narcissist maintain functional reality testing. Unlike the psychotic, the narcissist and borderline never hallucinate (except during psychotic microepisodes).
But, the narcissist feels that he exerts control and ownership over you. Like leaving your car in a carpark or your phone charging. You are out of sight, but not out of mind (introject constancy). It is a form of magical thinking: you are the narcissist’s extension and ambassador, wherever you may be. Wherever you are, he is. The introject is like a rope and he gives you enough of it, or like giving you a line off a fishing reel.
This creates in you the illusions of autonomy and agency - and in him the delusions of possession and control.
Introjects have on/off switches. You can silence them.
When he has sex with someone else, your introject is either deactivated or is left active. Disabling the introject to avoid negative affectivity (shame, guilt, anger) - leaving it on to accomplish some goal and restore grandiosity (e.g., revenge sex).
Internal objects are cathected and reframed (made to fit into a narrative).
BPD example:
When there is a failure to convert idealized object to a persecutory object, this leads to acting out.
Borderline legitimizes forbidden, repressed introjects, resonates with pathological parts, becomes a vector of contagion.
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It happened time and time again that my narcissist described me in ways alien to me, as if she was describing someone else. Sometimes I was idealized by her - sometimes criticized - in both instances for issues that had little or nothing to with my person or personality. I now understand that she was dealing with the introject in her mind.
Same with mine. She talked casually about some cafe she went and then remarked "Or is this too leftist for you?" I was flabbergasted, because we had never spoken about politics. I honestly replied: "I don't think in terms of left and right." To this day I still have no clue why she thought/said that.
I have experienced the same with narcissistic individuals. You can even correct them with proof and logic but they still will think that they have infallible judgement and can read people and situations as if they have some magic ability which enables them. In reality narcissistic are excellent at picking on people's behaviors so they can use someone's weaknesses against them, they're indeed very talented at that. But they completely miss the mark when it concerns actually understanding people. Narcissists misunderstand their ability on being sneaky, calculating and extremely low observing with actually understanding other people and seeing them as they are. A narcissist can only be correct in understanding other people when it concerns his/her personal gain, picking up insecurities and finding character traits and weaknesses which will aid him in manipulating and gaslighting you. Because you see, a narcissist can only be aware and objective regarding other people when the interaction concerns himself and his own needs. Whatever doesn't fit his objective or useful view will get overwritten. The narcissistic can be a genius but no matter what they can't think outside themselves.
I've seen my narc have conversations with people in his mind. His face gets so animated, it is strange to watch. I've seen him gaslight me by accusing me of doing what my interject has done in his mind, despite my solid indisputable evidence to the contrary. There is no winning.
Good lord! My ex wife, all day, every day! 😱 Despite any amount of evidence, there was no convincing her of anything. She was certain!
Omg same I thought he was sleep talking, but he was awake! Terrifying
Introject.
i think hes about to break
lol I love it the only comment Sam made was to correct your spelling of introject! Hilarious
I thought i was going crazy. I kept thinking "Its like they have this 2D cardboard cut out effigy of me in their mind" and they were never looking at ME they always just look at their cardboard cut out. Im so glad i stopped wasting energy/time on them. Now the healing happens.
How did this feel what did this look like? The concept interest me I’m trying to wrap my head around what your saying bc I’m not sure how u got to this?
My narc hated me bc I was everything he wanted to be. I didn’t know this I learned this as we were breaking up. He said he was envious of me and what I had achieved in life. When we got together I was in a very traumatized place thought I was going to lose my nursing license and everything so I was a fearful version of myself. After that passed I begin to heal and who my true self was reappeared without all the anxious stuff. He said he thought I was as “crazy” as he was but when he learned that I was actually a balanced person and not this crazy traumatized person he grew resentful of me.
He would say things to me that were off putting . I’m wondering if in all of this the introject he had of me was the crazy lady on the brink of a nervous break down.. so throughout the relationship he kept trying to make me that crazy lady in his mind? Bc he was better than her and he could help her etc?
What do u think?
“…I personally doubt whether narcissists qualify as human beings…” Coming from an expert on the topic I feel better. Thank you Dr. Vaknin :)
Dr Vaknin IS a narcissist lol he openly talks about it.
I guess the real question is can a narcissist, fully recognize the narcissist within him and not be a narcissist while giving mental health advice! 🤷🤯
Can a narcissist stop being a narcissist long enough to do his job?
Me either unfortunately
He’s more than an expert, he is one.
I think he’s being a bit ironic since he’s a psychopathic narcissist himself.
Now that I view people as subhumans I feel like a weight has been lifted
This is so good. They don’t confuse internal and external objects, they try to merge the two. Yes! Thank you Sam, you’re on fire lately. 🔥🔥
Isn't he. I just love his lectures
The last part of the video explaining why the failed attempt by a borderline to turn a idealized into a persecutary internal object causing the borderline to act out was like a enlightenment for me.
I never understood why my ex with borderline would literally always try to push me into some drama or stupid argument during one of the uncountable breakups. I never wanted bad blood between us even though the breakups were very painful for me. So I tried to end things on good terms most of the time.
But by doing so I effectively took away his defense mechanism of splitting and "painting me black" turning me into a persecutary internal object. Leaving him completely defenseless and exposed to unbearable pain, shame and guilt. So he always had to reach out to me or act out in a way that would trigger a negative response from me in order to cause a huge fight and drama. This was the only way that he could complete the transformation of turning me into a persecutary (bad/evil) object to justify his own behaviour and actions.
Fascinating. Thank you for sharing the helpful enlightenment.
This explains projection because once they have an internal persona for you it has to be manifested in the real person. Also explains the controlling and cohesive behaviour.
I totally get this. I remember breaking up with someone who was v controlling and it felt like he was living in a fantasy of who I was-not the reality. That relationship didn't last long but there were so many things that confused the heck out of me with his character. None of it felt 'normal' to me. I thought it was a reaction to childhood abuse and parental neglect and never seeking therapy. so gave him a break. But slowly it's come to me that he has (at least 1) personality disorders. I'm guessing narcissism is one. V much like his mother.
I v m e r y p
Two days ago, I got a message, and the content revealed how little he knows the me that is out here. There is a constant disbelief of everything i say, as if there is some other authority on what is "more true" about my own personal lived experience. It was very telling. Everything that i had described, was totally dismissed, AND he gets mad, that i am not that blank slate.
"The internal object and you, disagree sometimes." Oh, I am pretty sure we disagree most of the time. 😂
I don't think education makes someone any more deserving of love. He has the GED equivalent. I have an MA in corporate communications, and my BA was in philosophy. The internal object is not smarter than him....but sometimes, I am. Mostly because I am able to be open to information. He is smart when he doesn't have to deny reality to feel okay. That is very frustrating to deal with, someone who occasionally loses rational thinking. We want to believe that they will choose to be logical. But their own lived experience, isn't very logical, is it?
Every time, I think, “Now that’s the best descriptive analysis I’ve ever heard; so much resonates.” I will continue to learn from your authority. Thank you!
Ahhhha! I could always see him struggle with understanding people (he couldn’t) and then he would fabricate his own explanations of why people were doing this or that which would always irritate and piss off other people like his friends would always say: “ Pfff thats what yoú make of it” but its not what I meant. And it explains why he would - no matter how many times I tried to explain myself or get him to see my full range of interests or emotions or qualities- would always and always refer to the picture he had made of me in his head (and therefore towards me and others) of who hè had decided I was. I always felt in all those years the image he fabricated of me was like a badly cut out paper board drawn by him which never fitted on me. Frustrating to say the least..
Now I really get it. It's so sad all of this. Usually when something is made clear, the knowledge lightens the burden. I actually feel a physical heaviness. You really did a wonderful job explaining. I have learned so much. I absolutely love your videos, but I'm going to watch some Seinfeld so I can then get some sleep 😊
I was referring to Jeffey Seinfeld, the psychoanalyst.
😄 Now that lightens the load 😊
Sam: You freaking rock ! This deep analysis explains so much of what we experience living with a Narc ! Thank you so much
Thank you for this I thought he was bipolar, making shit up or confusing me with someone else he was dealing with at the same time, I get it now.
Thank you professor for all those uploads, I watch them every day.
OMG What a genius concept: the NP relates to their person as a projection of their internal object relationship. This would easily explain the depth & nature of their dismissive rage, & other serious problems.
If their internal object that represents you is a “hated object”, nothing you ever say or do will make a difference. The calls are coming from inside the house, so to speak. Since they aren’t wired for empathy, they can’t treat you as you really are. The NP tries to fuse you to make you like their internal object, is a key magnet in people who think lowly of themselves; what people in abusive relationships qualify as “my twin flame”.
THANK YOU Dr. Vaknin- this would explain so much…
But if that is the case, then I don't understand why the narcissist is trying to fuse you at all. If his or her introjects are the important ones, why bother with the external objects at all? Why getting angry when criticized etc.?
@@karlheinz5858reality threatens the controlled delusion
6:42 ---8::21 is the best explanation for the controlling behavior of the narcissist. I always got the sense in our discussions that my input was not needed and undesired.
Wow!!! I have tried to understand the npd for years!! I will have to RE listen to your message many times. Thank you.
Me, too. I’ve listened to a lot of his stuff and I still don’t get it fully.
Same...
3:20 absolutely profound!.........i dont know if this applies to my ex undiagnosed BPD but multiple times i came to this very conclusion!
Thank you Professor. Thats why you cant resonate or have a successful interaction with a NPD
All you tell matches completly and explains so much to me..
thank you
This is a great one, Sam!! 👍👍👍
As i always said....your videos are awesome and great.
Bravo!…seen it experancedit..wonderful validation…thank you Sam ❤
I knew a man who had in his bedroom portraits of his passed wife, and his daughter, and his grand-daughter, and I had feeling that sometimes he was talking to the portraits and felt relieved after. Although his daughter and grand-daughter lived at his house
So interesting. Thank you!
Wow very indepth & crisp...scarier than perceived reality 😮
I enjoy listening to you Dr.Sam.
One of your best, Sam ! Keep up your good work ! (I am a Borderline Psychopath, by the way...)
This video will be used as a reference of defense when narcissism becomes the dominant personality type. I can guarantee it.
Great explanation!
Great video
"Alles klar, Herr Kommissar !"
Danke.
Thank you, I've learnt so much from your videos. I wanted to keep the relation with my narcissistic father and now I know how I can handle his behaviour towards me. It doesn't hurt, because I know, it's only his own strategy for avoiding to be hurt. I enjoy time with him and we are happy together, when I talk to him by phone or when I visit him. I'm so happy about that.
That's awesome. I have a husband who deals with this. He is great but he can be super hurtful. These videos are helping me with navigating our relationship as well and having a deeper understanding of what's going on in his head because they don't open up about this stuff. This is some golden insights right here!
Yes, knowledge is power. Positive meaning.
Wissen ist Macht.
This is fn mind blowing!!!
Very good. Thank you.
Thnx, Sam❤️✨
Professor your “unwrapping” is more tantalizing and fulfilling than going to Disneyland and feasting on the Mini mouse buffet!!
I totally understand now...I think..ty
This explains so much, thank you! What I don't understand is if any of the "love" is real at all. I just found out this is my wife exactly. Every argument we had was her trying to convince me I resented or hated or didn't value her anymore. I would always say "i don't know who you are talking to but it's not me". Her mask is now off and I know everything she has done over the past 2 decades. She was just preparing to discard me (finally) right before I found it all out. She now swears that now that she knows how sick she is, she will fix it because she knows she actually loves me. Is this possible? Is any of the love "real"?
Don't take her back for now. Instead keep an eye on her. Is she really changing, going through therapy? If she isn't than it is just a trick to hoover you back into the toxic relationship.
I was with a narc for 1 year. It ended badly. In the aftermath, I actually asked him if any of the "relationship/love" real. He didn't answer but I could hear the wheels spinning in his mind. Then he responded very feebly, "Of course it was real." Then he proceeded to send me 100 texts in 1 hour trying to get me to let him back in my house. No sir.
No sireeeeee!
Sam said *he* doesn't consider them humans. That's good enough for me.
I am wondering if I am a narcissist! 😂
Me too 😂
That is incredible, but I know every bit of it from experience!
As a suedo-professional & expert in the study of narcissism I agree with you 100% on your non-human comment in regards to narcissists. This is the same conclusion I was forced to come to three and a half years ago in mapping the hierarchy of needs. Psychologically they stand in direct opposition to any individual human possessing empathy, which means the only thing making them human by adulthood is physiological/biological, or the hardware. This comes down to personal opinion in how spiritual/metaphysical an individual believes the human individual is, as in, how much of you is physical vs spiritual.
Great ending Doc!🥇📈
My cousin has had full blown conversations with me inhis head and has answered for me and done my thinking for me and i waa in bed sleeping and was really surprised to read his text messages because it was complete nonsense and absolutely not real
I can relate to some of that, when I get hurt or I know it's going to be an argument with my partner, I will argue first in my head, but not really argue with her in my head but more try to rationalize the subject and usually my out come to that is she agrees and we positively talk and agree, but when I actually talk to her or bring it up her reaction is very different and her defense mode kicks in and it triggers mine and it turns out extremely different than was in my mine
YOu explain it so great, and funny, to make a joke inbetween, kinda breaks the seriousness, and thank you for this video i`ve learned so much, while i thought i kinda knew it all, but don`t ;P
Thank you 🙏🙏🙏
Some of the things you say, coincide with some of my writings from the time I was involved with the narcissist. This video in particular reminds me of one, can I send it to you?
The more I listen to you, the more I realize my writings make sense. Well, they always did to me, but I didn’t know they really happened as I described them. What I mean is I didn’t know that my experience was an explainable truth.
So it surprises me in a sense. Maybe, just maybe, I understood what we both went through better than I thought.
Match made in heaven 😂.... cracked me
Great content! How might this apply to the Pygmalion effect? That they’ll naturally coerce you to fit their internal object/their beliefs of us? Are they attempting to create a self-fulfilling prophecy?
"In a way the Borderline pushes the Narcissist to become psychotic while the narcissist pushes the borderline to become a psychopath- match made in heaven" DAMN
This video took few doubts out of my head. In software we use versión control systems for keeping all developers local snapshots in proper state. If there is a Harem in the narc's mind and some of them might have a history of states we can say their brain is runing a very sophisticated VCS.
Is that the reason why they Hoover When you don't have nothing to do with them anymore?
Is it a fair assumption to make that the narcissist regularly changes the internal state of the internal object as all good or all bad due to their own failures in life so the he has her to blame; due to his grandiosity it can never be his fault so projects this on to the internal object and then coerces this image on to the external.. in order to start the discard phase
Thank you Sam for responding to the same comment/question on instagram. Looking forward to your video tomorrow.
@@taslimabegum2938 And what was his answer? It would interest me as well
@@lilliepad24 from what im gathering cycle is repeated. When the NPD person hoovers the BPD is more likely to come back and vice versa
@@karlheinz5858 he responded in the next video that the discard phase is inevitable regardless of whether the NPD person is with someone BPD or non-BPD or otherwise. However, during blaming due to his grandiosity the NPD still sees her as a good internal object
@@taslimabegum2938 Very interesting. Thank you very much!
revelations 22 verses 16 ❤❤❤❤
My narcissist has moved into all of my tech. For over a year now I have not been able to use my phone, internet and computer. I’ve found many forms of proof, yet he still denies it. It’s been hell amplified. Any insight into this new aspect of the narcissist? I’m at a loss and you’ve been so helpful.
Same happened to me. I simply bought a new separate phone and simcard, changed all passwords on everything and set up skyhigh security on all.
What influences the perception of the internal object in different moments, what makes the narcissist consider the introject bad or good, or loving, or angry? do they see the introject all bad only in the discard phase and all good in the love bombing and hoovering phase? thanks
How about searching my channel first?
Ok szoszamim
Does the internal object function similarly for the narcissist as a transitional object as stated by Winnicott? Specially when the external object is physically absent?
Search my channel.
What does the narcissist do with my internal object after discard (painted black), when they are with the next, or the next , or the next supply. Forgotten?
Search my channel.
why he does not use the cognitive empathy to understand the external object state of mind and feelings, and observe the behavior and words said by the external object? usually people express their emotions to the narcissist.
Is this the same for people who are, for example, obsessed with celebrities and believe they have a special relationship with them even though they don’t? Are they interacting with an internal object?
And if so, is this narcissism, or is interaction with introject a coping strategy also used by non-narcissists?
Erotomania is a delusional disorder. It does not involve internal objects (introjects).
Explains why they lie so much pathetically..& denie when you challenge them..& why they hate the word NO!
INSANE! Good ridance !
they only need the external object in order to obtain supply? the introject cannot give them supply?
Watch my videos on self-supply.
If in my next life dr.sam vaknin is still available I would like him to be my husband and we are going to live a beautiful life together ❤
I’m curious on what your thoughts on a relationship between a malignant narcissist and someone with DID. That was my first marriage. After 9 years it’s going to feel great dropping her
So do they idealize/devalue all the alters separately?
@@foxiefair123 when they can tell them apart. All the abuse created the last split and that alter is designed specifically to resist and ignore. She can’t shake that one
You said that if the narcissist sees you as bad internally, he will not see everything good you do, even though you said in a previous video that the narcissist cannot get rid of the ideal snapshot of you and return it to you. Please explain.
The narcissist converts the introjected idealized snapshot to a persecutory object who can do no right. As to what happens next, search the shared fantasy playlist.