I believe the issue is that dots in DCS don't scale for resolution, and the resolution of a 4k monitor is going to be much higher than a vr display right in front of your face. 1080p is an advantage compared to 4k, and a 1080p screen right in front of your face in an original vive is gonna show that dot way bigger than you're ever gonna see it on a monitor. the only real fix to make is to make the dots scale bigger at higher resolutions, but no matter what you're always gonna be able to pixel spot better in vr. that's just the nature of having screens right in front of your eyes
Brilliant comment! Many sharing similar thoughts, and it's nice to see a number of VR users happily admitting "dang right it's easier". I certainly found my first five years in DCS/VR a TON easier than trackIR. About a year ago I started making DCS videos, and to do so really demands 2D - for now at least.
@@DCSDigitalCombatSimulator it's not that it's easier per se, because any way you put it, your radar always spots the targets way before your eyes. Visual is only useful when dogfighting, and at this distance, there is no difference (except that you can follow your targetr easily with the headset).
Just use 2K or 4K monitor and setup a 1080p resolution on your desktop. Then run DCS ingame at 1080p. You will then still have a nice picture but a lower grafics. But then you can see everything far away.... It is a issue with rendering resolution inside DCS that have a "max" on 1080p resolution.....
@@chocks9350 I've just been doing some more testing based on your comment and many others like it. The results are just what you say - I've never had reason to game 1080p in DCS (I started VR, and/or 1440p) and so never saw this - the help here from people writing comments like yours was invaluable. The short-term workaround is "Lower your resolution, then you get higher view distances" works, but I don't want this being a long-term solution. I'm currently working on a follow-up video focusing exclusively on this "monitor res" issue.
Also keep in mind that it is way harder to spot a tiny moving dot in a youtube video than it is compared to your home screen due to UA-cams video compression.
Yeah this test is circumstantial. A far more accurate way of testing would be for Fox 3 to publish the mission, so people can download it. If people who will have a range of monitors, resolutions and sizes get the same results, and people who will have different VR headsets come out with identical results then we know its a problem
I disagree. The monitor may have some color variations but the pixel would still be there. Not seeing the aircraft until you can touch it is a problem, whereas the VR headset sees the pixel 25 miles away. And not just once but from multiple retries. That isn’t circumstantial. He provided his theory, go see if you can reproduce it and publish your findings.
@@parithon2397 UA-cam and pretty much all video files are compressed. The compression algorithm will simply not show a single pixel if it's color is close enough to the nearby pixels.
@@parithon2397 a 4 pixel dot is in 4k much tinier than at 2k or 1080p its just logical that this is easier to spot at lower resolutions... i hardly doubt it, that this has anything to do with VR itself..
This is why I think multiplayer servers should allow players to use the gray aircraft labels (gray colored dots). Not the blue or red ones, just the gray ones. I feel like it's the most realistic way to do it. From a screen you simply can't see other aircraft the same way you do IRL so the gray dots help give aircraft more definition without making it too unrealistic.
VR is the future. Been flying it for three years. Started with Rift then Reverb then to Rift S (easier and no WMR). Don’t know what headset is next for me. But needles to say I will never go back to trackir.
VR is the future. Facecrook VR is destined to fail. At least I dont have to give Mark Fuckerberg my data to use WMR. Never say never. I said that for years. I just switched back for DCS. I like to pplay relaiztic missions in a P51 and in VR you cant.
I played DCS for a year on a regular display and I tried it in VR... I got myself a headset and now I can't even imagine going back to the display. The difference is colossal. Imagine seeing a moving 3d image on a 2d screen space and then imagine literally being in that aircraft and looking out the canopy with your own eyes and accurately gauging the distance between you and everything else around you, you can't even compare playing DCS in these 2 ways. Depth perception is key to flying aircraft and VR is just that.
I use 4K & track ir and have the same problem. Tests at native 16:9 screen resolutions, 78% screen view, gamma 1.5 (I like it not so washed out), head on F18, co-altitude, speed 370kts: 1366 x 768 to 1920 x 1080 - hornet was visible from 40miles fully zoomed in (mZ), 35 miles normal zoom (mN) pretty consistently, give or take a mile or two for me to see it & pause the game. I didn't bother to check when it began to look like an aircraft, i.e. had sprouted wings (mA) 2560 x 1440 - 26mZ, 22mN, 14mA 3072 x 1728 - 18mZ, 10mN, 4mA 3200 x 1800 - 13mZ, 9mN, 2mA 3840 x 2160 - 14mZ, 8.5mN, 5mA (was this due to me getting a bit better at spotting it?) My crude tests prove your point that if a VR headset or TV screen has a resolution of 1920 x 1080 or lower then there is a built in advantage because of the pixel size BUT the screen looks really basic, a bit like going back to the early days of LOMAC. I wonder if ED would consider upping the number of pixels at which a plane becomes a dot for us high-res users?
@@theflyingfool I was going to do that today anyway as I discussed with a friend that I can spot from around 30Nm. I want to verify if the range really was that long. I'll report back my findings.
With my current VR settings on Quest 2 I got following results. No Zoom: 33Nm VR Zoom: 42Nm. My Quest 2 Resolution is automatic. Encoding resolution width is 2912. I used DCS default VR settings. I did not see difference between F18 or A10, both were spotted at same distances. I also noticed if visibility range is medium the hard limit is 20Nm. Ultra or Extreme both had same spotting distances. I also tested with 3440x1440 ultra wide resolution. In theory I can see the tiny tiny spot from like 15Nm, but if that was real world game situation, honestly I would not even see the enemy even if we were merged.
I don't play competitively, but I have used both VR and TrackIR. One massive* advantage TrackIR would afford someone competitively, is the ability to swivel their head like a demon-possessed character from the exorcist. Dogfighting in VR is far more difficult.
Something of note is that in VR vs on the screen the AA settings are likely not the same, in VR you have what looks like no AA at all, vs some very nice AA on the monitor. however, with AA being a post processing effect, if there is a black dot against the sky, it is pretty likely to blur it out quite a bit, if not completely. In war thunder for example, when planes are far enough away it replaces their model with a black dot that is large enough to avoid this issue somewhat, though it still has an effect on visibility, even as they get close enough for the actual model to show you can get an effect where you see the plane, but it disappears as you get closer, until you get even closer and the model takes up enough pixels to be visible
some insightful thoughts there - I also assumed the AA is blurring out the aircraft (dot) - thus making it harder/impossible to see on the monitor... Ensure you check-out the follow up video on this subject, I'm half way through filming, some of the results continue to surprise me. In addition, our assumption about the way distant pixels are presented - at least from evidence gathered thus far into the project - appears to show we could be wrong. I'm screenshotting at various resolutions, zooming in on photoshop, and doing side-by-sides to eliminate the "youtube compression issues" that have been cited. My hope is, ED may pick this up at some stage, and work in what must be quite a simple little fix, otherwise competitive play looks like a race to the bottom - at least in terms of screen res
It just "feels" right. I see more and more players going VR (based on comments). Hopefully when ED unlock all this new stuff, it's gonna enable decent VR gameplay into more complex missions too.
Agreed. Your actual natural vision uses a supercomputer (your brain) to interpret differences between what is seen by each eye. With “flat” there is literally no difference between what the eyes see, so zero additional perception value. Reality (albeit virtual) be darned in DCS! (Just kidding, i love VR on the HP Reverb 2.)
The much lower resolution of most currently available HMDs makes a huge difference. If you reduce your resolution to 1080 or 720p you'll have an easier time spotting as well. Fewer pixels means smaller objects have to be rendered larger.
In vr it's easier to spot from far away, but once your in visual distance it's much harder to track and identify aircraft. Identification can sometimes be really difficult due to ghosting which is a major disadvantage when playing in cold war servers. Also tracking small fast aircraft can be very difficult due to ghosting and poor anti aliasing.
This is exactly my experience as well. Using valve index for more than a year now. Spotting BVR is great, indentification BFM not so much, same applies while keep tracking in BFM.
That and you actually have to turn around to see behind you properly without breaking your neck. So aircraft position and technique is also important and aircraft on the edge of the lens are harder to see as well... I can't tell you how many fking time I lose bandits right in front of me in VR lol.
@@_Jake.From.Statefarm_ @KortanaDCS actually seemed to have found a way to accelerate the movement with her G2. So at least that might be able to get sorted.
@@freemandiy There's a mod for it but I wouldn't want any acceleration on my head movement. It takes away from the true 1:1 environment. You could probably get used to it but I prefer actually having to use a proper technique. Ive noticed most pilots IRL are generally in a bank, and lean to see over the headrest on the opposite shoulder side. As it puts the headrest in a 45/90 degree angle to the ground. (Essentially looking over your left shoulder between the right side of the headrest and canopy.).. I've gotten used to it but you can already lose bandits right on front of you pretty easily so taking your eye off them in any type of movement can be difficult. I think with the updates coming, higher settings, and the newer headsets that are extremely clear like the varjo aero... It won't be nearly as much of a problem as it currently is.
@@_Jake.From.Statefarm_ the biggest issue for me is visual clarity, i use a quest 2 and its evident the lack of "quality" the image has, but IMO VR is so much fun and the closest ill ever be to "flying a real plane".
There is common knowledge we use in Enigma cold war servers and that is to drop your resolution to 1920x1080, and use 2x or 4x msaa to reduce jaggy lines. Its not pretty, but it will help level the playing field since the lowest resolution a player will play is 1080p. Also, using a high resolution VR headset can have the same disadvantage as a 4k or 2k monitor. I play on VR with valve index, and I drop my resolution from the default 150% to 100% in order to spot enemy planes. However, 1080p players on large monitors such as 27" have the advantage over everyone else.
Can confirm. After learning about this through Enigma's Cold War server, I did numerous tests with spotting at 1440p vs 1080p (27" monitor) and it's _shocking_ how much easier it is to spot at lower resolutions.
I played around with this before VR was a thing. They still render at the same distances across all resolutions, but the size of the pixel is the difference for the human eye. Since higher resolutions have more pixels per inch (ppi) the dot is smaller. With essentially 1080p screen within 1-2 inches of your face, the image is far larger than you will ever be able to replicate with a traditional monitor. It's the same with other games and honestly the easiest one to test is probably War Thunder since they have scaling done in a pretty convenient way.
Interesting video. Not sure VR users actually have an advantage overall. But, there is something to be said about depth perception. VR users have to work much harder to have situational awareness around them 360 degrees compared to someone who doesn't have 1 to 1 head movement. There are times some guys see things before I do who aren't in VR and sometimes I see things faster. I think most VR users could care less about advantages or disadvantages. It's more about immersion. I know some virtual pilots who refuse to fly in VR because they feel a competitive disadvantage checking their six or prefer the graphics eye candy of 4k on a 2D monitor
Why do people in the US use the expression "Could care less" when describing someone who doesn't care? If someone "Could care less" then that means they do care even if only a little bit. Surely the proper expression in the context above should be Couldn't Care Less? It's not my intention to be the grammer police even though I am being. I'm juat genuinely intrigued in how the Expression Couldn't Care Less became Could Care Less even when it doesn't make sense. I do agree with you saying VR uses care about immersion though, I could never go back to Driving, Flying etc in Pancake mode.
@antonw91 it's just the way it is. Don't try to make sense of it, or some of the English language in general, because it is different in almost every English speaking country. The Queens English is dead in America
at least VR users don't need an exorcist.. they don't turn their heads 180 degrees without straining.. if someone can easily spot and track me while i'm at their six.... i know thats a track IR user
You know, that u can turn your body, too? I'm flying in VR and I dont just rotate my head but also my torso. Checking my six or tracking a bandit at my six in VR is absolutely no problem
you guys are missing the point.. VR users have to give effort... turn your torso... turn your head... and even peak through the edge of your lens to see directly behind you.... track ir users... can snap 180 degrees in an instant with just a 45 degree turn of their head... thats not a big deal in 1v1... but when you are in a furball or in warbirds with 30 plus planes in a tight area.... yeah... you will see the difference
Then you could say track ir gives advantages too as you can easily see directly behind you. With vr in a cockpit it’s difficult to get your head right around and depending on where they are you often can’t see them unless they are in the sweet spot of the lens. Monitors have the entire display as a sweet spot
But vr is 1:1 when you turn😍... its lovely not trying to play looking through a small window. Gotta keep obstacles clear and know just how far you can lean forward before hitting your desk too😅
Absolutely - instant 180' turns in trackIR is certainly one big chunk of change in favour of TrackIR mode. Real Life, all of this is completely different again, fighter pilots often talking about being almost unable to move their heads at all during high-G turns. When they are about to lose sight, must unload the wings a brief moment, twist the neck, take a breathe, then strain... as they restart pulling G's. I'm sure ED could easily FORCE a simple "no head turn allowed IF the G force is greater than 7G" (or whatever number you pick) but that could result in bizarre head tracking behaviour, and potentially lead players to reset joystick curves, so they can easily "ride 6.9G" etc... At least it's my guess why there's been no rush to address this issue, trackIR or VR, very tricky and perhaps not worth the pitfalls.
@@DCSDigitalCombatSimulator on way to solve this is to just fly the planes that the wings rip off in high g turns 😆 then ya ya gott be looking at your air speed and not cheating lol... anyway they just need to get this new engine moving along so i can do vr in a decent resolution ...comparable to my monitor settings at least. Half the graphics just sux
Actually that advantage of being able to quickly see behind you with trckir vs vr.... that's not even a problem anymore if you know where to look for a tool. Exhibit A: ua-cam.com/video/ZLgOnC6vmMM/v-deo.html
I just started using VR about 2 days ago. The 1st thing I noticed was that I can see the ball on the Carrier instantly from a few miles away. I could never do that using just the screen. That being said I still feel kind of blind when looking for aerial targets. I just turned on the label markers to help out. I'm still fairly new to DCS though so it might just be that I need practice knowing what to look for
That will get better when vulkan, multicore, and the LODS are reworked. Currently a lot of the cloud lods aren't loaded properly for VR so you have to supersample the shit out of them... if you have the power to do so.. once everything is cleaned up and sharp, it will be a lot easier to spot enemies. Not to mention the aircraft ghost quite a bit even without motion repojection. Also take into consideration when you're looking around if the aircraft is in the outside portion of the lens, it will likely be more distorted than the center.
Man we are the same VR age. I love it man, and I concur with the ball. It also appears right above your head. I also noticed I can spot ground targets waaaaaaay easier.
Hey welcome to DCS (with or without VR) is a fantastic game (sorry, simulation!) Great to have you with us. I'm gonna be making a video in the coming days aimed specifically for newer players, make sure you're around for that, and until then, happy hunting in the virtual skies
Same thing with ground targets, but it seems a LOD issue to me. Do this test in VR: drop a GBU-12 from a A10C from 12k feet over a triple A and follow the bomb with CTRL+F6. You will see the HUGE target pixels as soon as you release the bomb, but as it gets closer, at a certain point, those pixels disappear and you don't see the targets "enhanced" anymore until the bomb gets very low in altitude. I don't know if this is something ED made on purpose to overcome VR's relatively low res.
was never a pc guy untill i found dcs, built my rig up specifically to fly in vr and have only flown without it for quick tests of equipment or settings, this is really making me glad i took this route
I always struggled spotting aircraft without VR, but judging by how most experienced-ish players spotted me no problem, VR or no VR, even when VR was not yet a thing, I was quite sure that it's just my personal perception issue and/or lack of skill. I've got an HP Reverb G2 headset and I felt the difference instantly when I got it. It is quite natural for at least 2 reasons: first, you're literally looking at your screen through a lens, and second - the parallax effect which makes the picture appear much, much more detailed.
when i looking for targets i look around so i look not directly on my HUD :D and i actually see one of them 2:14 between the 5 degree nose up bars. at 3:34 the bandit on the right side disappeared at the top of the screen :D
While wearing the Steam Index I had an easier time seeing people. But if you really want to spot people on your monitor, turn your resolution down as low as possible.
when I switched from 1680x1050 monitor to 2560x1440 I noticed that I couldnt see anything anymore. With the low res monitor I could see things as soon as they entered my render range
Depth perception is great isn't it! But 2D is another story and that is to be expected. Which is why they give you the option to turn on flags to see those planes. But of course that breaks the immersion. Someone had said on discord that you can see planes better on 1080p than 2k or 4k.
I use VR almost exclusively. Remember that we have more problems with general spotting for the resolution that is in most of cases is lower and most important I can't turn my head like a howl like u can do with track IR.
as a VR user i feel at a specific disadvantage, considering that monitor users have much more detail and can zoom in further... the only advantage is formation flying as the 3D immersion makes everything easier... although the distance compensation for far away objects might need to be tweaked, it is pretty hard to maintain SA in a way that someone with a flat panel and trackir would. I would reckon on a competitive server like growling sidewinder the flat panel player would have an advantage over the VR player.
resolution makes it all... i flown at 1080p@27" and saw enemys way earlier.... 30 miles+ in VR i have manytime issues to spot an enemy at 15-20 Nm sometimes i see them at first around 12nm
Interesting. I wonder if there is a problem with the dot scaling in flatscreen mode? I'm pretty sure there's a way to test visibility range in a standardized way to see if there are vision defects in a sim. I'm sort of thinking of a mission that has a string of BF-109K-4's all flying as a set speed, with the viewpoint plane also traveling at that set speed, at a uniform spacing, and you'd see how many of them you could see for a given configuration/setting. 109K-4's would be so the same test could be performed in DCS and Il-2 for the same standards. Sort of an airborne version of the eye chart. Would probably need to figure out how to scale an eye chart to 109K-4 wings.
@@LupusAries Interesting. Haven't flown enough CloD to run into that one. That's probably 109E-4's, but similar concept. Now to just find mission makers who could be talked into implementing it in Il-2 Great Battles and DCS.
@@HarryVoyager Could be, it's on the Channel Map (still superior to the battle of Normandy version), but there are newer 109s in the game. Navigating away from the coast on the Tobruk map is scary, as they got the bareen featurelesness of that desert across very well.
@@LupusAries Yes, but I think they stop around the Bf-109F version. CloD only covers through around 1942, though the 109F may have similar enough wings to the K that it could be comparable. For the GB and DCS missions, I'd thing we would want to use Stalingrad and the Caucasus maps to make the mission itself most accessible. In DCS, the Cacuasus, with the player plane being the TF-51 on autopilot, pretty much anyone with a computer could run it. Not sure the right way to set it up in Il-2. Maybe a LaGG-3 with the canopy open and the planes off the wing?
It’s field of view. When looking at a monitor, you are technically squeezing higher field of view down to the field of view that your physical monitor takes up in your vision. For example, your screen may be showing a 90-110 degree field of view but the monitor is only taking up 45-60 degrees of your actual real life field of view depending on monitor size and how far away it is from your face. So basically everything gets super zoomed out. Another way to look at it is think of yourself in a sphere and your monitor is a window into the outside world. How small of a view would you actually get looking out. If you were to match up the in game FOV to the actual FOV your monitor takes up in your vision, the HUD of the F-18 would probably just fit inside of the screen and at that level of “zoom” and you would easily be able to see aircraft. Now, VR is one to one with field of view. That’s why when you look at buildings, trees, mountains, etc. they look massive. It’s because they are. Is it an advantage? Absolutely, but is it something that needs to get fixed? I don’t think so. That’s what the FOV zoom feature is for when playing in 2D.
The issue isn't VR vs flat screen but the difference between seeing something IRL and trying to render it with pixels. VR typically has more pixels and right in your face, rendering the single pixel further out and easier to see. What DCS as well as IL-2 needs to do is add a compensator for long distance rendition of aircraft, increasing their size to make them actually render for peoples screens rather than just disappearing. Even in VR I struggle to spot enemies at ranges over a few km which I'd definitely be able to see IRL. One game that does this pretty well is Warthunder, while a lot of bad things can be said about the spotting system (placing a target marker on aircraft you can see) the actual rendering of aircraft at range is pretty damn good. The vehicle is enlarged at range plus darkened to make it easier to spot, which actually looks quite realistic. You don't get that flickering outline either that you get in DCS/IL'2 trying to render shadows at long range, trying to make one pixel black and one pixel gray etc...
So it's OK for 2d players to have a head like a bloody owl? Nobody seems to mention that advantage in multiplayer. I play in 4k in 2d and VR with an Aero and i find very little difference in spotting so not sure what advantage you're on about to be fair. It could be settings related and anti alias settings.
simple solution. ED gives everyone a year to upgrade to VR and make it a VR only game. never going to make everyone happy. might as well make it the very best it can be.
The issue is field of view. A tight FoV on a monitor is like zooming in where as a large (or incorrect) FoV will try to fit more on the screen (zoom out effect) and that will push anything in the center of your monitor further away despite the physical range of your aircraft to the enemy being identical. VR puts everything at a 1:1 scale so it resembles real depth. A monitor simply can’t do this no matter the resolution. You need to measure the distance from your eyes to the monitor and set the FoV accordingly and I bet you will see the incoming aircraft much further away.
That's why I can't see anything on my 4k TV, sitting less than 1m in front of it 🥺 Heard about the problem but I didn't expect it to be that bad... Damn. I need to test this with 1080p too
This all depends on the resolution you are running combined with the pixel size of your monitor/vr headset... like on a tv or older monitor with larger pixels you can spot planes a bazillion miles away.. new monitor and i can see anything even just 2 miles away😂.. same for vr on higher resolution its harder to spot... low resolution planes are easy to see far away... in vr the advantage is a disadvantage because most of us using vr have little choice to play at higher resolutions thus everything else looks like garbage... finding balace between performance and graphics is rough in vr and often changes during game play.. but its just a better experience than my new 35" moniter with max graphics so i keep using vr
If VR gives you an unfair advantage it doesn’t Matter because DCS is not a competitive shooter it’s a simulator. Its not made to be fair it’s made to be realistic. Comment what you think
Actually, I talked to Bignewy about something related. In real life, a 777 at 7nm is hardly sppoted even having the clue to look at the right direction and altitude difference.
Happy New Year and welcome back! You’ve been away for quite some time…but back again with yet another great video about the game most of us have a love-hate relationship with😅 .And thank you once more for the F-18!
The first two with the F/A-18s that literally merged and couldn't be seen -- the map was definitely not default weather/environment settings. There was either a slight fog/mist making things unclear, or the in-cockpit lighting makes it hard to see outside of the cockpit, and I could tell the visibility for aircraft was super low before I even began a real visual search for anything. That's not a flat screen versus VR issue. With the other tests, it seems like there is also an unintentional rendering difference to make an object visible from that far away in VR versus non-VR renderers. If the render at 2k/3K per eye shows you something that 4k, doesn't even render a single pixel for, that's a different problem. VR isn't inherently better here but rather the implementation -- and maybe in some competitive environments, it would matter. But in a modern era jet battle, that kind of visual advantage isn't going to matter because you should have know a plane was there far sooner and further. I play on a 4K 40" that I can move very close in for immersion. I can see quite far and the convenience of a HOTAS zoom bind is definitely better than the what the average VR pilot will see assuming the engine isn't just dropping it.
I'm at 1080p with track ir but i have everything maxed out in graphics and can see everyone within 10-20nm, but i had the same issues when i was playing with my older RTX2060. And for thr gama settings i have it on 1.9 to get more contrast and it realy seems to help because everything is less foggy.
well I have a track ir and if they’re not 100 feet or 100 miles i can’t see them. Anywhere that’s not super close or super far they just disappear especially when I’m zooming in or out. I’m a real pilot and have a very good grasp at scanning and spotting traffic so it feels off
I don’t think the advantage is unfair when anyone can go and buy a vr headset. $300 and you can own a quest 2 with decent clarity. Considering all the other peripherals needed to play DCS, cost for VR is minor
Try 1080p on a big monitor without anti aliasing - you'll spot things much easier than anyone in VR. It's all in your setup and not necessarily a question of VR or not.
I fly in both VR and TackIR and I agree with the results. VR is realistic though, you can see aircraft at 10-20 miles IRL if you know where you're looking, and there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to see them on the standard game with TrackIR
I have a 2k monitor and the Oculus Rift S as well, tested this myself and can confirm it is WAY easier in VR. Now add back the terrible performance and visuals and I will take my monitor over it any day
So the reason VR see's dots better than flat monitors is due to how DCS handle FOV or in this case "they dont" ever wondered why when you use the zoom keybind it seems to adjust the FOV in some weird way? thats why, you got to remember a typical 16:9 monitor's FOV is only around 90 Horizontal and 60 vertical. a VR display can have well over 100 FOV in both Horizontal and Vertical. some displays even having 130 FOV. this matters because by adjusting FOV your basically stretching pixels from what the game would render then push to the FOV, thats why you can generally see more with higher FOV settings, so on a flat display you will see "less" pixel stretching vs a VR display with its higher FOV and in general better visual coordination with your eyes to spot something moving (dots) thats why if I use TrackIR I use the zoom slider and another keybind (forgot the actual name) but it literally zooms in like your eyeballs are up against the buttons in the cockpit :D and generally this helps 100x better when spotting something by using radar visual queues to look in the general direction.
Having just switched back to TiR from VR very much indeed seeing tagets on my 55" 4k TV is much more difficult. The quality of the distant target when you see it much later is much better than in VR though. I waited years to get into VR to let the tech mature. I played the DCS demo in VR 5 years ago and was totally blown away. Upgraded PC just for DCS. Then once I got the full P51 I quickly realized DCS pulled a bait and switch. After threee more upgrades to my PC and two to headsets it is still unplayable in any realistic type mission. Yes Ive used OpenXR. Back in 2D I have ZERO perfromance issues with everythng just about maxxed. It is so unbeleiveably frustrating.
Absolutely, and i've mentioned with someone else, in real life, fighter pilots pulling G during BFM (or any reason) claim it's near impossible to move the head at all - having to unload the wings before doing so - makes sense - I suspect there's a hundred other pro's and con's between the 2 setups, but I think this is one issue that could be sorted out
ok the test setup is good but zoom function plays also a major role in spooting with just monitor... just zooming a little i can suddenly spot stuff alot farther away but its just my observation. it feels like id renders stuff alot earlier when zooming in fully zoomend i can see pixels by nearly 10-15 milees further just by zooming a little. i think on vr that is just bay dafault maxed maybe?
The reason is when you are on a 2D screen, everything on the screen looks farther away in the cockpit. Here is a simple test. Spawn in around Dubai and fly towards the Dubai tower at 20 miles. Now go to the outside view, you will notice it is half the distance on the outside view than the cockpit view. The reason is that DCS cockpit views were made for a 4:3 monitor and the FOV is pulled back so you can see the whole cockpit. This is the reason you have to use zoom on a 2D screen all the time to see anything. In VR I can see targets on the ground at 20k feet, because there is no manipulation to the actual view. It has nothing to do with resolution, if you zoom in at least 2x on the 2D cockpit you will see the targets the same as VR.
Simulators are not meant to be balanced and they aren't meant for competitive play, however it is true that DCS has a problem with view range not scaling properly with resolution, not sure it's a VR problem per se, maybe it's just that VR generates lower resolution images.
in dcs you can only see aircraft at 40nm distance, its like a magical wall that they pop in. zoomed in with my 1920x1080 screen i can see airplanes when they pop into existence. the more you zoom in the more level of detail you will see of anything at distance. in my experience. it is very easy to see planes when you are up high and the other planes are in the cons. that long tail really points it out. something you can do is use a tgp to see the 40 mile distance. since 2.8 i have found it is easir to find planes farther away. the dot that they are are a hair bigger.
I’m just curious though, what’s a realistic distance for you to be able to see a target without some sort of SA system telling you exactly where to look. Because I’m just going to say this, I was at an air show this spring, and even scanning the skies I was lucky to spot a gray painted hornet at anything more than 10 miles out with a clear sky. I can only imagine what it’s like trying to pick out an aircraft flying nose on straight towards you in nose on against ground clutter, or god help you if there’s any clouds or haze.
It's a scaling issue, not VR issue. Same thing happens in 2D, such that lower resolution settings makes spotting further away easier (ideal resolution for DCS is 1080p for this reason).
Dots or not, the HT vs VR has been a clear issue to me already for some time. When I transitioned from TrackIR to VR I started to score less kills and to get shot down more often while air-to-ground performance actually improved. Fact is that VR makes the experience much more realistic... and harder too. Nowadays, I fly VR-only and use TrackIR just for content creation. A good real-life example is that F-35 pilots get a super cool helmet display with incredible features and system integration. But with the advent of anti-stealth detection technologies, even they will still have to keep their head on a swivel if they want to survive. Head tracking and padlock are good if you wanna use only monitor, but it gives unrealistic advantages that have pampered us all quite a bit before VR became a thing. And when it did, we felt the impact. Footage of actual fighter pilots dogfighting in DCS World with only head tracking makes me feel like they'd be more confortable ,for instance, with a good Pimax Crystal.
ED, Smart Scaling is a thing since Falcon 4.0 back in 1998. Thats by now a quarter of a century! (as is a dynamic campaign) So stop producing maps nobody needs and please fix the Basics!
Been playing dcs since before the first VR came out on the market got the rift CV 1 and havent looked back. Granted those early VR sets had a screen door effect but with my quest 2 im alway picking stuff up from 30 plus miles away in the air and ive even had friends that play with track ir and monitor say they can spot the ground targets and i spot them just fine. Personally i wouldnt play dcs any other way than VR
I used to fly on the storm of War server flew the Spitfire sometimes the P-51 and I would not be able to see a band until he was already shooting at me and I'd have to evade and then go get him and I would fly sometimes with VR wingman and they could see the bandits so far ahead of me so yes I do believe that we are makes a huge difference
Am I doing something wrong with my setup? I’ve got a Valve Index but my VR is fuzzy and tears a lot and just overall makes it harder to see anything. I know it’s not the physical focus of the lenses. My computer specs are fine, with an RTX 3070 and more ram than i’ll ever need. Are there settings I could change in DCS or in SteamVR to make it look better?
You can't fix the fuzziness. It comes with the current generation of VR in Sims. You can correct the tearing though. Try lowering your Pixel Density and Masking inside DCS, and use the 100% or Default resolution in Steam VR.
While you test different resolutions for flat, you just use "in VR". Thats quite misleading. Also in VR there are headsets with bigger and with smaller resolutions and on a Quest2 with a lower resolution planes are more easily spottet than with a higher res headset like the Varjo or a 8kx, so with your old Rift that of course then will be even easier. The zoom though is a different animal, with flat you can zoom waaaaaaaay further in than with VR and especially identifying A/C types is more difficult in VR because of that
SMART SCALING is this SIM needs. they tried with imposters in DCS 1.5 ,but players found out you could replace the poster with jpg picture to the size of your likings. i usually had Mario on xD, for enemy fighters. Also the engine is so old, that it is best to run it in 1080P. Same goes to your FOV. If you zoom in your FOV, contrails and dots dissapears. This issue have been existing since 2014 and ED have told multiple time, that this is as it should be for now. I already knew the fair disadvantage screenplayers have, than VR
4k doesn't really make things easier to see as distance. It just means objects at distance have more pixels it won't help if the individual pixels are so small you can't see them. You only really need ~100 ppi which can be achieved with 1080p. If you want to go for 2k or 4k then you really need to go for a bigger screen to benefit from the extra pixels. I'd say to to about 24 inches you can get away with 1080p Then up to around 34 inches you can get away with 1440p Above 34inch (basically TV territory) is where you start to truly benefit from the extra pixels 4k has. The reason you can see better in vr is because the screens are much "larger" as they sit in frint of your eyes. Uaing vr is essentially like watching a 60 inch tv from up close ofcourse you will see small details better
I think the proper perspective is that if you're playing on a 2d monitor you're putting yourself at a disadvantage because it is a flight Sim and flying is done in a 3D world not a 2d screen
Thank you for this vid…But, please try this with a Reverb G2 headset (4K) with a RTX 3080ti or better graphics card running 100% in SteamVR and Pixel Density in DCS at 1.0…can’t see anything in distance, but the glass cockpit is clear and readable…😮
I use track ir and i actually think its harder spotting in war thunder sim rather than without it. Idk what the diff is between the games as far as like render distance whatever yk
Agreed that there should be a compensation of sorts when viewing “a pixel” in a 4K monitor. The size of the plane should be an amount of degrees (micro degrees) and not a fixed pixel count.
I always thought in 2D, we should be able to see aircraft further away than what we do in DCS. Not sure in BMS if you can see in distance, as I haven't flown for some time in BMS, and I don't have MSFS to do any tests.
Spitfire pilots could see zgermans coming from the white cliffs of dover on a clear day granted it would be many bombers but they could visibly identify them 21 miles out
I agree with most people here. Flying in VR makes you a better pilot. Things look a lot slower, perception of distance is immediate. Things are rendered as 3D so technically you are getting many angles of the object. I stared flying Ka50 and it is much much easier to fly in VR. Picture does not look clean as you might guess and ghosting in dogfight is a problem, but you enjoy flying in VR vs you enjoy a wonderful picture in 2D. I also noticed seeing details that were not easily seen in 2D. In VR you can plan ahead your movement with little corrections, not so much in 2d. VR is the future and ED should definitely prioritize getting their graphics optimized. I do go back to 2d once a while to enjoy the amazing graphics , but that is really the only reason. The 180 deg back head vision in IR track is cheating! And a side from dog fighting, you don’t miss it in VR. Oh, one more thing , the cockpit instruments are all visible in VR. The vertical speed indicator in Ka50 is only half visible from centered position, in VR it is full moon! FA 18 radar/baro switches are cut in half, in VR they look all visible.
I've not played a lot in non-vr, as I never had head tracking, but I will say it would depend a lot on the VR headset and settings. Quest 2 was barely playable for DCS, as the resolution is too poor. It might give you an advantage in spotting the dot, but is a disadvantage in everything else. I did not consider it worth playing. Upgrading to Pico 4, it is quite good, but I'm thinking about getting an even higher res headset. I mostly care about immersion and the game looking good rather than competitive advantage.
Yeah, spotting aircraft in VR is easy. But if you are flying something where you have no help to spot Freandly or Enemy aircraft you will struggle hard on ID'ing the aircraft since all you see is a black dot until it is so close that you will die within seconds if it is an enemy...
It's actually your CPU. I have a Asus Strix 1080 and getting better FPS than you. I upgraded to the i7 11700k last year and my FPS almost doubled. With a 3090 ti you should be getting 45+ fps. I get 30-35fps in the F-18. Use to get 40-45 before 2.8 came out. I use OpenXR Toolkit and OpenComposite instead of SteamVR.
@@ComdrStew Are you able to use those with the Index? I swear there used to be times where id get 45 to 50fps but now it seems to be struggling whenever i get on the Enigma's CW Server or some other ones that have more than 30 people. I just wish i had a smooth experience with vr, would be a much better game for me if it was!
@@Gperalta Not sure with the Index, I'm on the G2. It's the new update 2.8, it hurt VR. I use to get 35 in the Apache, now I get around 22-24. I'm going to be upgrading my graphics card in a month or two. My friend got the 7900 XTX and he is getting 60-80fps in the F-18.
What are your specs? I am running an HP Reverb G2, 5800X3D, and a 6800XT and can barely see outside of my cockpit. For me, 1440(the only monitor I have) is far superior. I would love to know how you are running this in a game that is defently not optimized for VR.
I believe the issue is that dots in DCS don't scale for resolution, and the resolution of a 4k monitor is going to be much higher than a vr display right in front of your face. 1080p is an advantage compared to 4k, and a 1080p screen right in front of your face in an original vive is gonna show that dot way bigger than you're ever gonna see it on a monitor.
the only real fix to make is to make the dots scale bigger at higher resolutions, but no matter what you're always gonna be able to pixel spot better in vr. that's just the nature of having screens right in front of your eyes
Brilliant comment! Many sharing similar thoughts, and it's nice to see a number of VR users happily admitting "dang right it's easier". I certainly found my first five years in DCS/VR a TON easier than trackIR. About a year ago I started making DCS videos, and to do so really demands 2D - for now at least.
@@DCSDigitalCombatSimulator I'm making videos for VR :D they look a little fuzzy but I think they're watchable
@@DCSDigitalCombatSimulator it's not that it's easier per se, because any way you put it, your radar always spots the targets way before your eyes. Visual is only useful when dogfighting, and at this distance, there is no difference (except that you can follow your targetr easily with the headset).
Just use 2K or 4K monitor and setup a 1080p resolution on your desktop. Then run DCS ingame at 1080p. You will then still have a nice picture but a lower grafics. But then you can see everything far away.... It is a issue with rendering resolution inside DCS that have a "max" on 1080p resolution.....
@@chocks9350 I've just been doing some more testing based on your comment and many others like it. The results are just what you say - I've never had reason to game 1080p in DCS (I started VR, and/or 1440p) and so never saw this - the help here from people writing comments like yours was invaluable. The short-term workaround is "Lower your resolution, then you get higher view distances" works, but I don't want this being a long-term solution. I'm currently working on a follow-up video focusing exclusively on this "monitor res" issue.
Also keep in mind that it is way harder to spot a tiny moving dot in a youtube video than it is compared to your home screen due to UA-cams video compression.
Yeah this test is circumstantial. A far more accurate way of testing would be for Fox 3 to publish the mission, so people can download it. If people who will have a range of monitors, resolutions and sizes get the same results, and people who will have different VR headsets come out with identical results then we know its a problem
I disagree. The monitor may have some color variations but the pixel would still be there. Not seeing the aircraft until you can touch it is a problem, whereas the VR headset sees the pixel 25 miles away. And not just once but from multiple retries.
That isn’t circumstantial. He provided his theory, go see if you can reproduce it and publish your findings.
@@parithon2397 your last paragraph is exactly what I’m saying. He’s created a hypothesis but his range of testing is rather limited
@@parithon2397 UA-cam and pretty much all video files are compressed. The compression algorithm will simply not show a single pixel if it's color is close enough to the nearby pixels.
@@parithon2397 a 4 pixel dot is in 4k much tinier than at 2k or 1080p its just logical that this is easier to spot at lower resolutions... i hardly doubt it, that this has anything to do with VR itself..
This is why I think multiplayer servers should allow players to use the gray aircraft labels (gray colored dots). Not the blue or red ones, just the gray ones. I feel like it's the most realistic way to do it. From a screen you simply can't see other aircraft the same way you do IRL so the gray dots help give aircraft more definition without making it too unrealistic.
VR is the future. Been flying it for three years. Started with Rift then Reverb then to Rift S (easier and no WMR). Don’t know what headset is next for me. But needles to say I will never go back to trackir.
VR is the future. Facecrook VR is destined to fail. At least I dont have to give Mark Fuckerberg my data to use WMR. Never say never. I said that for years. I just switched back for DCS. I like to pplay relaiztic missions in a P51 and in VR you cant.
I played DCS for a year on a regular display and I tried it in VR... I got myself a headset and now I can't even imagine going back to the display. The difference is colossal. Imagine seeing a moving 3d image on a 2d screen space and then imagine literally being in that aircraft and looking out the canopy with your own eyes and accurately gauging the distance between you and everything else around you, you can't even compare playing DCS in these 2 ways. Depth perception is key to flying aircraft and VR is just that.
I use 4K & track ir and have the same problem. Tests at native 16:9 screen resolutions, 78% screen view, gamma 1.5 (I like it not so washed out), head on F18, co-altitude, speed 370kts:
1366 x 768 to 1920 x 1080 - hornet was visible from 40miles fully zoomed in (mZ), 35 miles normal zoom (mN) pretty consistently, give or take a mile or two for me to see it & pause the game. I didn't bother to check when it began to look like an aircraft, i.e. had sprouted wings (mA)
2560 x 1440 - 26mZ, 22mN, 14mA
3072 x 1728 - 18mZ, 10mN, 4mA
3200 x 1800 - 13mZ, 9mN, 2mA
3840 x 2160 - 14mZ, 8.5mN, 5mA (was this due to me getting a bit better at spotting it?)
My crude tests prove your point that if a VR headset or TV screen has a resolution of 1920 x 1080 or lower then there is a built in advantage because of the pixel size BUT the screen looks really basic, a bit like going back to the early days of LOMAC. I wonder if ED would consider upping the number of pixels at which a plane becomes a dot for us high-res users?
Quest 2 has insane spotting range also and it isn't even low resolution VR headset.
@@emossg would you consider doing a test in DCS for us to compare?
@@theflyingfool I was going to do that today anyway as I discussed with a friend that I can spot from around 30Nm. I want to verify if the range really was that long. I'll report back my findings.
With my current VR settings on Quest 2 I got following results.
No Zoom: 33Nm
VR Zoom: 42Nm.
My Quest 2 Resolution is automatic. Encoding resolution width is 2912. I used DCS default VR settings.
I did not see difference between F18 or A10, both were spotted at same distances.
I also noticed if visibility range is medium the hard limit is 20Nm. Ultra or Extreme both had same spotting distances.
I also tested with 3440x1440 ultra wide resolution. In theory I can see the tiny tiny spot from like 15Nm, but if that was real world game situation, honestly I would not even see the enemy even if we were merged.
I don't play competitively, but I have used both VR and TrackIR. One massive* advantage TrackIR would afford someone competitively, is the ability to swivel their head like a demon-possessed character from the exorcist. Dogfighting in VR is far more difficult.
Agreed 💯! I’ve had days where my neck hurts from a night of dogfighting in VR.
Something of note is that in VR vs on the screen the AA settings are likely not the same, in VR you have what looks like no AA at all, vs some very nice AA on the monitor. however, with AA being a post processing effect, if there is a black dot against the sky, it is pretty likely to blur it out quite a bit, if not completely. In war thunder for example, when planes are far enough away it replaces their model with a black dot that is large enough to avoid this issue somewhat, though it still has an effect on visibility, even as they get close enough for the actual model to show you can get an effect where you see the plane, but it disappears as you get closer, until you get even closer and the model takes up enough pixels to be visible
I've always wondered what that effect was in WT, now I know. Thank you.
some insightful thoughts there - I also assumed the AA is blurring out the aircraft (dot) - thus making it harder/impossible to see on the monitor... Ensure you check-out the follow up video on this subject, I'm half way through filming, some of the results continue to surprise me. In addition, our assumption about the way distant pixels are presented - at least from evidence gathered thus far into the project - appears to show we could be wrong. I'm screenshotting at various resolutions, zooming in on photoshop, and doing side-by-sides to eliminate the "youtube compression issues" that have been cited. My hope is, ED may pick this up at some stage, and work in what must be quite a simple little fix, otherwise competitive play looks like a race to the bottom - at least in terms of screen res
Stereoscopic Vision is superior to a flat image because of the fact that it is how the Brain is used to processing Visual info in the first place.
It just "feels" right. I see more and more players going VR (based on comments). Hopefully when ED unlock all this new stuff, it's gonna enable decent VR gameplay into more complex missions too.
Meanwhile, TrackIR guy turns his head 10 degrees left + FOV out, and see perfectly his 6.
Good luck in VR with your superior brain to maintain visual.
@@krostouin though you do feel the intensity when turning your head all the way around in vr
Agreed. Your actual natural vision uses a supercomputer (your brain) to interpret differences between what is seen by each eye. With “flat” there is literally no difference between what the eyes see, so zero additional perception value. Reality (albeit virtual) be darned in DCS!
(Just kidding, i love VR on the HP Reverb 2.)
VR is king and will only get better!
I hope your right. They seem to keep kicking themselves in the nuts.
The much lower resolution of most currently available HMDs makes a huge difference. If you reduce your resolution to 1080 or 720p you'll have an easier time spotting as well. Fewer pixels means smaller objects have to be rendered larger.
In 4k simply scale the GUI in DCS settings and you can read mission text etc.
In vr it's easier to spot from far away, but once your in visual distance it's much harder to track and identify aircraft. Identification can sometimes be really difficult due to ghosting which is a major disadvantage when playing in cold war servers. Also tracking small fast aircraft can be very difficult due to ghosting and poor anti aliasing.
This is exactly my experience as well. Using valve index for more than a year now. Spotting BVR is great, indentification BFM not so much, same applies while keep tracking in BFM.
That and you actually have to turn around to see behind you properly without breaking your neck. So aircraft position and technique is also important and aircraft on the edge of the lens are harder to see as well... I can't tell you how many fking time I lose bandits right in front of me in VR lol.
@@_Jake.From.Statefarm_ @KortanaDCS actually seemed to have found a way to accelerate the movement with her G2. So at least that might be able to get sorted.
@@freemandiy There's a mod for it but I wouldn't want any acceleration on my head movement. It takes away from the true 1:1 environment. You could probably get used to it but I prefer actually having to use a proper technique. Ive noticed most pilots IRL are generally in a bank, and lean to see over the headrest on the opposite shoulder side. As it puts the headrest in a 45/90 degree angle to the ground. (Essentially looking over your left shoulder between the right side of the headrest and canopy.).. I've gotten used to it but you can already lose bandits right on front of you pretty easily so taking your eye off them in any type of movement can be difficult. I think with the updates coming, higher settings, and the newer headsets that are extremely clear like the varjo aero... It won't be nearly as much of a problem as it currently is.
@@_Jake.From.Statefarm_ the biggest issue for me is visual clarity, i use a quest 2 and its evident the lack of "quality" the image has, but IMO VR is so much fun and the closest ill ever be to "flying a real plane".
There is common knowledge we use in Enigma cold war servers and that is to drop your resolution to 1920x1080, and use 2x or 4x msaa to reduce jaggy lines. Its not pretty, but it will help level the playing field since the lowest resolution a player will play is 1080p. Also, using a high resolution VR headset can have the same disadvantage as a 4k or 2k monitor. I play on VR with valve index, and I drop my resolution from the default 150% to 100% in order to spot enemy planes. However, 1080p players on large monitors such as 27" have the advantage over everyone else.
Can confirm. After learning about this through Enigma's Cold War server, I did numerous tests with spotting at 1440p vs 1080p (27" monitor) and it's _shocking_ how much easier it is to spot at lower resolutions.
@@wirelessmouse9579 the electronic equivalent of eating lots of carrots!
I play at 1080P on LG OLED 55 inch with sharpness on TV cranked up to the max. A huge improvement over my 15.6 inch laptop screen
@@NoRegret08 wish I had a room that big ;)
you can improve dot visibilty with reshade too
I played around with this before VR was a thing. They still render at the same distances across all resolutions, but the size of the pixel is the difference for the human eye. Since higher resolutions have more pixels per inch (ppi) the dot is smaller. With essentially 1080p screen within 1-2 inches of your face, the image is far larger than you will ever be able to replicate with a traditional monitor. It's the same with other games and honestly the easiest one to test is probably War Thunder since they have scaling done in a pretty convenient way.
Totaly depends on what vr headset you have. Im having a real hard time to see anything in the distance with my old htc vive....
Interesting video. Not sure VR users actually have an advantage overall. But, there is something to be said about depth perception. VR users have to work much harder to have situational awareness around them 360 degrees compared to someone who doesn't have 1 to 1 head movement. There are times some guys see things before I do who aren't in VR and sometimes I see things faster. I think most VR users could care less about advantages or disadvantages. It's more about immersion. I know some virtual pilots who refuse to fly in VR because they feel a competitive disadvantage checking their six or prefer the graphics eye candy of 4k on a 2D monitor
Why do people in the US use the expression "Could care less" when describing someone who doesn't care? If someone "Could care less" then that means they do care even if only a little bit. Surely the proper expression in the context above should be Couldn't Care Less?
It's not my intention to be the grammer police even though I am being. I'm juat genuinely intrigued in how the Expression Couldn't Care Less became Could Care Less even when it doesn't make sense.
I do agree with you saying VR uses care about immersion though, I could never go back to Driving, Flying etc in Pancake mode.
@antonw91 it's just the way it is. Don't try to make sense of it, or some of the English language in general, because it is different in almost every English speaking country. The Queens English is dead in America
at least VR users don't need an exorcist.. they don't turn their heads 180 degrees without straining.. if someone can easily spot and track me while i'm at their six.... i know thats a track IR user
Xrnecksaver… rosolve this problem .. 😎
You know, that u can turn your body, too?
I'm flying in VR and I dont just rotate my head but also my torso. Checking my six or tracking a bandit at my six in VR is absolutely no problem
@@WestriderzNRW Im old so I useed VRnecksaver.
Actually, I can track someone behind me just fine in VR. You can look at my channel and watch my OBS Test video and see it's not that much trouble.
you guys are missing the point.. VR users have to give effort... turn your torso... turn your head... and even peak through the edge of your lens to see directly behind you.... track ir users... can snap 180 degrees in an instant with just a 45 degree turn of their head... thats not a big deal in 1v1... but when you are in a furball or in warbirds with 30 plus planes in a tight area.... yeah... you will see the difference
Then you could say track ir gives advantages too as you can easily see directly behind you. With vr in a cockpit it’s difficult to get your head right around and depending on where they are you often can’t see them unless they are in the sweet spot of the lens. Monitors have the entire display as a sweet spot
But vr is 1:1 when you turn😍... its lovely not trying to play looking through a small window. Gotta keep obstacles clear and know just how far you can lean forward before hitting your desk too😅
Absolutely - instant 180' turns in trackIR is certainly one big chunk of change in favour of TrackIR mode. Real Life, all of this is completely different again, fighter pilots often talking about being almost unable to move their heads at all during high-G turns. When they are about to lose sight, must unload the wings a brief moment, twist the neck, take a breathe, then strain... as they restart pulling G's. I'm sure ED could easily FORCE a simple "no head turn allowed IF the G force is greater than 7G" (or whatever number you pick) but that could result in bizarre head tracking behaviour, and potentially lead players to reset joystick curves, so they can easily "ride 6.9G" etc... At least it's my guess why there's been no rush to address this issue, trackIR or VR, very tricky and perhaps not worth the pitfalls.
@@DCSDigitalCombatSimulator on way to solve this is to just fly the planes that the wings rip off in high g turns 😆 then ya ya gott be looking at your air speed and not cheating lol... anyway they just need to get this new engine moving along so i can do vr in a decent resolution ...comparable to my monitor settings at least. Half the graphics just sux
Actually that advantage of being able to quickly see behind you with trckir vs vr.... that's not even a problem anymore if you know where to look for a tool. Exhibit A:
ua-cam.com/video/ZLgOnC6vmMM/v-deo.html
I just started using VR about 2 days ago. The 1st thing I noticed was that I can see the ball on the Carrier instantly from a few miles away. I could never do that using just the screen.
That being said I still feel kind of blind when looking for aerial targets. I just turned on the label markers to help out.
I'm still fairly new to DCS though so it might just be that I need practice knowing what to look for
That will get better when vulkan, multicore, and the LODS are reworked. Currently a lot of the cloud lods aren't loaded properly for VR so you have to supersample the shit out of them... if you have the power to do so.. once everything is cleaned up and sharp, it will be a lot easier to spot enemies. Not to mention the aircraft ghost quite a bit even without motion repojection. Also take into consideration when you're looking around if the aircraft is in the outside portion of the lens, it will likely be more distorted than the center.
Man we are the same VR age. I love it man, and I concur with the ball. It also appears right above your head. I also noticed I can spot ground targets waaaaaaay easier.
Hey welcome to DCS (with or without VR) is a fantastic game (sorry, simulation!) Great to have you with us. I'm gonna be making a video in the coming days aimed specifically for newer players, make sure you're around for that, and until then, happy hunting in the virtual skies
I've also noticed under clouds are super dark in vr. Also I can't spot enemy aircraft until they're within 5 miles
Same thing with ground targets, but it seems a LOD issue to me. Do this test in VR: drop a GBU-12 from a A10C from 12k feet over a triple A and follow the bomb with CTRL+F6. You will see the HUGE target pixels as soon as you release the bomb, but as it gets closer, at a certain point, those pixels disappear and you don't see the targets "enhanced" anymore until the bomb gets very low in altitude. I don't know if this is something ED made on purpose to overcome VR's relatively low res.
was never a pc guy untill i found dcs, built my rig up specifically to fly in vr and have only flown without it for quick tests of equipment or settings, this is really making me glad i took this route
I always struggled spotting aircraft without VR, but judging by how most experienced-ish players spotted me no problem, VR or no VR, even when VR was not yet a thing, I was quite sure that it's just my personal perception issue and/or lack of skill.
I've got an HP Reverb G2 headset and I felt the difference instantly when I got it. It is quite natural for at least 2 reasons: first, you're literally looking at your screen through a lens, and second - the parallax effect which makes the picture appear much, much more detailed.
There's a lot to be said for "knowing what to look for"... and stay tuned for a follow-up vid i'm making on this subject
With or without cant spot any aircraft. Bought the wrong Pimax the image is like watching trough 2 potatos
@@willybuettner5029that's how I feel with the quest. I can't see any ground targets or air targets further than 3ish miles
I will say visibility distance settings plays a big part... Some time I couldn't see a target until they were within 4 miles minimum on VR with a 3080
when i looking for targets i look around so i look not directly on my HUD :D and i actually see one of them 2:14 between the 5 degree nose up bars. at 3:34 the bandit on the right side disappeared at the top of the screen :D
While wearing the Steam Index I had an easier time seeing people.
But if you really want to spot people on your monitor, turn your resolution down as low as possible.
when I switched from 1680x1050 monitor to 2560x1440 I noticed that I couldnt see anything anymore. With the low res monitor I could see things as soon as they entered my render range
Depth perception is great isn't it! But 2D is another story and that is to be expected. Which is why they give you the option to turn on flags to see those planes. But of course that breaks the immersion. Someone had said on discord that you can see planes better on 1080p than 2k or 4k.
I'm on 1080p and can confirm that
That's it, I'm not switching from my 1080p tp VR
I use VR almost exclusively. Remember that we have more problems with general spotting for the resolution that is in most of cases is lower and most important I can't turn my head like a howl like u can do with track IR.
as a VR user i feel at a specific disadvantage, considering that monitor users have much more detail and can zoom in further... the only advantage is formation flying as the 3D immersion makes everything easier... although the distance compensation for far away objects might need to be tweaked, it is pretty hard to maintain SA in a way that someone with a flat panel and trackir would. I would reckon on a competitive server like growling sidewinder the flat panel player would have an advantage over the VR player.
resolution makes it all... i flown at 1080p@27" and saw enemys way earlier.... 30 miles+
in VR i have manytime issues to spot an enemy at 15-20 Nm sometimes i see them at first around 12nm
Interesting. I wonder if there is a problem with the dot scaling in flatscreen mode?
I'm pretty sure there's a way to test visibility range in a standardized way to see if there are vision defects in a sim.
I'm sort of thinking of a mission that has a string of BF-109K-4's all flying as a set speed, with the viewpoint plane also traveling at that set speed, at a uniform spacing, and you'd see how many of them you could see for a given configuration/setting.
109K-4's would be so the same test could be performed in DCS and Il-2 for the same standards.
Sort of an airborne version of the eye chart. Would probably need to figure out how to scale an eye chart to 109K-4 wings.
You mean like that one mission for IL2 Cliffs of Dover Blitz that does exactly that?
@@LupusAries Interesting. Haven't flown enough CloD to run into that one. That's probably 109E-4's, but similar concept.
Now to just find mission makers who could be talked into implementing it in Il-2 Great Battles and DCS.
@@HarryVoyager Could be, it's on the Channel Map (still superior to the battle of Normandy version), but there are newer 109s in the game.
Navigating away from the coast on the Tobruk map is scary, as they got the bareen featurelesness of that desert across very well.
@@LupusAries Yes, but I think they stop around the Bf-109F version. CloD only covers through around 1942, though the 109F may have similar enough wings to the K that it could be comparable.
For the GB and DCS missions, I'd thing we would want to use Stalingrad and the Caucasus maps to make the mission itself most accessible.
In DCS, the Cacuasus, with the player plane being the TF-51 on autopilot, pretty much anyone with a computer could run it.
Not sure the right way to set it up in Il-2. Maybe a LaGG-3 with the canopy open and the planes off the wing?
It’s field of view. When looking at a monitor, you are technically squeezing higher field of view down to the field of view that your physical monitor takes up in your vision.
For example, your screen may be showing a 90-110 degree field of view but the monitor is only taking up 45-60 degrees of your actual real life field of view depending on monitor size and how far away it is from your face. So basically everything gets super zoomed out.
Another way to look at it is think of yourself in a sphere and your monitor is a window into the outside world. How small of a view would you actually get looking out. If you were to match up the in game FOV to the actual FOV your monitor takes up in your vision, the HUD of the F-18 would probably just fit inside of the screen and at that level of “zoom” and you would easily be able to see aircraft.
Now, VR is one to one with field of view. That’s why when you look at buildings, trees, mountains, etc. they look massive. It’s because they are.
Is it an advantage? Absolutely, but is it something that needs to get fixed? I don’t think so. That’s what the FOV zoom feature is for when playing in 2D.
The issue isn't VR vs flat screen but the difference between seeing something IRL and trying to render it with pixels. VR typically has more pixels and right in your face, rendering the single pixel further out and easier to see. What DCS as well as IL-2 needs to do is add a compensator for long distance rendition of aircraft, increasing their size to make them actually render for peoples screens rather than just disappearing. Even in VR I struggle to spot enemies at ranges over a few km which I'd definitely be able to see IRL. One game that does this pretty well is Warthunder, while a lot of bad things can be said about the spotting system (placing a target marker on aircraft you can see) the actual rendering of aircraft at range is pretty damn good. The vehicle is enlarged at range plus darkened to make it easier to spot, which actually looks quite realistic. You don't get that flickering outline either that you get in DCS/IL'2 trying to render shadows at long range, trying to make one pixel black and one pixel gray etc...
So it's OK for 2d players to have a head like a bloody owl? Nobody seems to mention that advantage in multiplayer.
I play in 4k in 2d and VR with an Aero and i find very little difference in spotting so not sure what advantage you're on about to be fair.
It could be settings related and anti alias settings.
simple solution. ED gives everyone a year to upgrade to VR and make it a VR only game. never going to make everyone happy. might as well make it the very best it can be.
Hoggit would implode if they did that.
When I compared this in il2 it was easier on a screen although the difference wasn’t that big. Don’t know what dcs does wrong
The issue is field of view. A tight FoV on a monitor is like zooming in where as a large (or incorrect) FoV will try to fit more on the screen (zoom out effect) and that will push anything in the center of your monitor further away despite the physical range of your aircraft to the enemy being identical.
VR puts everything at a 1:1 scale so it resembles real depth. A monitor simply can’t do this no matter the resolution. You need to measure the distance from your eyes to the monitor and set the FoV accordingly and I bet you will see the incoming aircraft much further away.
That's why I can't see anything on my 4k TV, sitting less than 1m in front of it 🥺
Heard about the problem but I didn't expect it to be that bad... Damn. I need to test this with 1080p too
This all depends on the resolution you are running combined with the pixel size of your monitor/vr headset... like on a tv or older monitor with larger pixels you can spot planes a bazillion miles away.. new monitor and i can see anything even just 2 miles away😂.. same for vr on higher resolution its harder to spot... low resolution planes are easy to see far away... in vr the advantage is a disadvantage because most of us using vr have little choice to play at higher resolutions thus everything else looks like garbage... finding balace between performance and graphics is rough in vr and often changes during game play.. but its just a better experience than my new 35" moniter with max graphics so i keep using vr
If VR gives you an unfair advantage it doesn’t Matter because DCS is not a competitive shooter it’s a simulator. Its not made to be fair it’s made to be realistic. Comment what you think
That's why I still use labels. Objects at a distance are very hard to spot in DCS.
Actually, I talked to Bignewy about something related. In real life, a 777 at 7nm is hardly sppoted even having the clue to look at the right direction and altitude difference.
0:10 : I'm gonna give you the answer upfront ...
😂 8:26 : the answer
Suggest that you upload the source video as a link as well since UA-cam compression is atrocious at spotting.
Happy New Year and welcome back! You’ve been away for quite some time…but back again with yet another great video about the game most of us have a love-hate relationship with😅 .And thank you once more for the F-18!
The first two with the F/A-18s that literally merged and couldn't be seen -- the map was definitely not default weather/environment settings. There was either a slight fog/mist making things unclear, or the in-cockpit lighting makes it hard to see outside of the cockpit, and I could tell the visibility for aircraft was super low before I even began a real visual search for anything. That's not a flat screen versus VR issue.
With the other tests, it seems like there is also an unintentional rendering difference to make an object visible from that far away in VR versus non-VR renderers. If the render at 2k/3K per eye shows you something that 4k, doesn't even render a single pixel for, that's a different problem. VR isn't inherently better here but rather the implementation -- and maybe in some competitive environments, it would matter. But in a modern era jet battle, that kind of visual advantage isn't going to matter because you should have know a plane was there far sooner and further.
I play on a 4K 40" that I can move very close in for immersion. I can see quite far and the convenience of a HOTAS zoom bind is definitely better than the what the average VR pilot will see assuming the engine isn't just dropping it.
Personally I find flat screen much easier to see enemies at distance, but VR allows me much greater situational awareness at close range.
I'm at 1080p with track ir but i have everything maxed out in graphics and can see everyone within 10-20nm, but i had the same issues when i was playing with my older RTX2060. And for thr gama settings i have it on 1.9 to get more contrast and it realy seems to help because everything is less foggy.
well I have a track ir and if they’re not 100 feet or 100 miles i can’t see them. Anywhere that’s not super close or super far they just disappear especially when I’m zooming in or out. I’m a real pilot and have a very good grasp at scanning and spotting traffic so it feels off
Nice investigative work. Thank you.
If there was ever an advert for smart scaling, this is it
I need to upgrade my VR rig. Using a Rift S still and I have to keep the labels on because I can't see a darn thing lol
I don’t think the advantage is unfair when anyone can go and buy a vr headset. $300 and you can own a quest 2 with decent clarity. Considering all the other peripherals needed to play DCS, cost for VR is minor
Try 1080p on a big monitor without anti aliasing - you'll spot things much easier than anyone in VR. It's all in your setup and not necessarily a question of VR or not.
"you'll spot things much easier than anyone in VR" no you won't. You'll get a small improvement, but it's nothing remotely close to VR visibility.
I fly in both VR and TackIR and I agree with the results.
VR is realistic though, you can see aircraft at 10-20 miles IRL if you know where you're looking, and there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to see them on the standard game with TrackIR
I have a 2k monitor and the Oculus Rift S as well, tested this myself and can confirm it is WAY easier in VR. Now add back the terrible performance and visuals and I will take my monitor over it any day
So the reason VR see's dots better than flat monitors is due to how DCS handle FOV or in this case "they dont" ever wondered why when you use the zoom keybind it seems to adjust the FOV in some weird way? thats why, you got to remember a typical 16:9 monitor's FOV is only around 90 Horizontal and 60 vertical. a VR display can have well over 100 FOV in both Horizontal and Vertical. some displays even having 130 FOV. this matters because by adjusting FOV your basically stretching pixels from what the game would render then push to the FOV, thats why you can generally see more with higher FOV settings, so on a flat display you will see "less" pixel stretching vs a VR display with its higher FOV and in general better visual coordination with your eyes to spot something moving (dots) thats why if I use TrackIR I use the zoom slider and another keybind (forgot the actual name) but it literally zooms in like your eyeballs are up against the buttons in the cockpit :D and generally this helps 100x better when spotting something by using radar visual queues to look in the general direction.
Having just switched back to TiR from VR very much indeed seeing tagets on my 55" 4k TV is much more difficult. The quality of the distant target when you see it much later is much better than in VR though. I waited years to get into VR to let the tech mature. I played the DCS demo in VR 5 years ago and was totally blown away. Upgraded PC just for DCS. Then once I got the full P51 I quickly realized DCS pulled a bait and switch. After threee more upgrades to my PC and two to headsets it is still unplayable in any realistic type mission. Yes Ive used OpenXR. Back in 2D I have ZERO perfromance issues with everythng just about maxxed. It is so unbeleiveably frustrating.
Which headset are you using?
@@ComdrStew Reverb G2.
But can you v ID them further away and /or better in VR?
You could make a similar argument that TrackIR IS a huge advantage over VR. Compare head turn abilities while looking back at your tail.
Absolutely, and i've mentioned with someone else, in real life, fighter pilots pulling G during BFM (or any reason) claim it's near impossible to move the head at all - having to unload the wings before doing so - makes sense - I suspect there's a hundred other pro's and con's between the 2 setups, but I think this is one issue that could be sorted out
ok the test setup is good but zoom function plays also a major role in spooting with just monitor... just zooming a little i can suddenly spot stuff alot farther away but its just my observation. it feels like id renders stuff alot earlier when zooming in fully zoomend i can see pixels by nearly 10-15 milees further just by zooming a little. i think on vr that is just bay dafault maxed maybe?
The reason is when you are on a 2D screen, everything on the screen looks farther away in the cockpit. Here is a simple test. Spawn in around Dubai and fly towards the Dubai tower at 20 miles. Now go to the outside view, you will notice it is half the distance on the outside view than the cockpit view. The reason is that DCS cockpit views were made for a 4:3 monitor and the FOV is pulled back so you can see the whole cockpit. This is the reason you have to use zoom on a 2D screen all the time to see anything. In VR I can see targets on the ground at 20k feet, because there is no manipulation to the actual view. It has nothing to do with resolution, if you zoom in at least 2x on the 2D cockpit you will see the targets the same as VR.
Depends on the VR headset, I certainly can’t spot out to 40 or 25 in my hp reverb g2.
Real life should be max out to 10, depending on aircraft size.
Simulators are not meant to be balanced and they aren't meant for competitive play, however it is true that DCS has a problem with view range not scaling properly with resolution, not sure it's a VR problem per se, maybe it's just that VR generates lower resolution images.
in dcs you can only see aircraft at 40nm distance, its like a magical wall that they pop in. zoomed in with my 1920x1080 screen i can see airplanes when they pop into existence. the more you zoom in the more level of detail you will see of anything at distance. in my experience. it is very easy to see planes when you are up high and the other planes are in the cons. that long tail really points it out. something you can do is use a tgp to see the 40 mile distance. since 2.8 i have found it is easir to find planes farther away. the dot that they are are a hair bigger.
I thought this was just my shifty settings in vr trying to lower graphics to play. But I will be honest not being able to iff visually sucks.
I’m just curious though, what’s a realistic distance for you to be able to see a target without some sort of SA system telling you exactly where to look.
Because I’m just going to say this, I was at an air show this spring, and even scanning the skies I was lucky to spot a gray painted hornet at anything more than 10 miles out with a clear sky. I can only imagine what it’s like trying to pick out an aircraft flying nose on straight towards you in nose on against ground clutter, or god help you if there’s any clouds or haze.
This is why we fly 1080p, big fat easily seen pixels!
Which VR headset was used in this video? Thank you
It's a scaling issue, not VR issue.
Same thing happens in 2D, such that lower resolution settings makes spotting further away easier (ideal resolution for DCS is 1080p for this reason).
1080p for flat screen.. if you wanna see the dots. It's not a VR thing.. it's a resolution thing.
Dots or not, the HT vs VR has been a clear issue to me already for some time.
When I transitioned from TrackIR to VR I started to score less kills and to get shot down more often while air-to-ground performance actually improved.
Fact is that VR makes the experience much more realistic... and harder too.
Nowadays, I fly VR-only and use TrackIR just for content creation.
A good real-life example is that F-35 pilots get a super cool helmet display with incredible features and system integration.
But with the advent of anti-stealth detection technologies, even they will still have to keep their head on a swivel if they want to survive.
Head tracking and padlock are good if you wanna use only monitor, but it gives unrealistic advantages that have pampered us all quite a bit before VR became a thing. And when it did, we felt the impact.
Footage of actual fighter pilots dogfighting in DCS World with only head tracking makes me feel like they'd be more confortable ,for instance, with a good Pimax Crystal.
Thats true! I could always notice a dot far away in my VR than in the TIR.
I find spotting ground targets so much harder in VR (Quest2) because it all blurs into 1.
ED, Smart Scaling is a thing since Falcon 4.0 back in 1998. Thats by now a quarter of a century! (as is a dynamic campaign) So stop producing maps nobody needs and please fix the Basics!
Been playing dcs since before the first VR came out on the market got the rift CV 1 and havent looked back. Granted those early VR sets had a screen door effect but with my quest 2 im alway picking stuff up from 30 plus miles away in the air and ive even had friends that play with track ir and monitor say they can spot the ground targets and i spot them just fine. Personally i wouldnt play dcs any other way than VR
I used to fly on the storm of War server flew the Spitfire sometimes the P-51 and I would not be able to see a band until he was already shooting at me and I'd have to evade and then go get him and I would fly sometimes with VR wingman and they could see the bandits so far ahead of me so yes I do believe that we are makes a huge difference
A better test would have been at 1080P. I play on 55 inch OLED at 1080P with sharpness cranked up on the actual LG TV
Am I doing something wrong with my setup? I’ve got a Valve Index but my VR is fuzzy and tears a lot and just overall makes it harder to see anything.
I know it’s not the physical focus of the lenses. My computer specs are fine, with an RTX 3070 and more ram than i’ll ever need. Are there settings I could change in DCS or in SteamVR to make it look better?
You can't fix the fuzziness. It comes with the current generation of VR in Sims. You can correct the tearing though. Try lowering your Pixel Density and Masking inside DCS, and use the 100% or Default resolution in Steam VR.
Well I must be blind cause in VR (reverb G2 native resolution) I’m struggling to see planes 😅😅 like I’m in gunrange and all I see is a dot 😅🤣
While you test different resolutions for flat, you just use "in VR". Thats quite misleading. Also in VR there are headsets with bigger and with smaller resolutions and on a Quest2 with a lower resolution planes are more easily spottet than with a higher res headset like the Varjo or a 8kx, so with your old Rift that of course then will be even easier. The zoom though is a different animal, with flat you can zoom waaaaaaaay further in than with VR and especially identifying A/C types is more difficult in VR because of that
What are your pc specs and what link cable are you using
SMART SCALING is this SIM needs. they tried with imposters in DCS 1.5 ,but players found out you could replace the poster with jpg picture to the size of your likings. i usually had Mario on xD, for enemy fighters. Also the engine is so old, that it is best to run it in 1080P. Same goes to your FOV. If you zoom in your FOV, contrails and dots dissapears. This issue have been existing since 2014 and ED have told multiple time, that this is as it should be for now. I already knew the fair disadvantage screenplayers have, than VR
What pixel density do you use?
So.. what VR goggles do you use? 🙂
4k doesn't really make things easier to see as distance. It just means objects at distance have more pixels it won't help if the individual pixels are so small you can't see them. You only really need ~100 ppi which can be achieved with 1080p. If you want to go for 2k or 4k then you really need to go for a bigger screen to benefit from the extra pixels.
I'd say to to about 24 inches you can get away with 1080p
Then up to around 34 inches you can get away with 1440p
Above 34inch (basically TV territory) is where you start to truly benefit from the extra pixels 4k has.
The reason you can see better in vr is because the screens are much "larger" as they sit in frint of your eyes. Uaing vr is essentially like watching a 60 inch tv from up close ofcourse you will see small details better
I think the proper perspective is that if you're playing on a 2d monitor you're putting yourself at a disadvantage because it is a flight Sim and flying is done in a 3D world not a 2d screen
Thank you for this vid…But, please try this with a Reverb G2 headset (4K) with a RTX 3080ti or better graphics card running 100% in SteamVR and Pixel Density in DCS at 1.0…can’t see anything in distance, but the glass cockpit is clear and readable…😮
I use track ir and i actually think its harder spotting in war thunder sim rather than without it. Idk what the diff is between the games as far as like render distance whatever yk
Track IR is not the same as VR.
Agreed that there should be a compensation of sorts when viewing “a pixel” in a 4K monitor. The size of the plane should be an amount of degrees (micro degrees) and not a fixed pixel count.
I always thought in 2D, we should be able to see aircraft further away than what we do in DCS.
Not sure in BMS if you can see in distance, as I haven't flown for some time in BMS, and I don't have MSFS to do any tests.
I play on 1080p and can see targets over 40 miles away.
Spitfire pilots could see zgermans coming from the white cliffs of dover on a clear day granted it would be many bombers but they could visibly identify them 21 miles out
I agree with most people here. Flying in VR makes you a better pilot. Things look a lot slower, perception of distance is immediate. Things are rendered as 3D so technically you are getting many angles of the object. I stared flying Ka50 and it is much much easier to fly in VR. Picture does not look clean as you might guess and ghosting in dogfight is a problem, but you enjoy flying in VR vs you enjoy a wonderful picture in 2D. I also noticed seeing details that were not easily seen in 2D. In VR you can plan ahead your movement with little corrections, not so much in 2d. VR is the future and ED should definitely prioritize getting their graphics optimized. I do go back to 2d once a while to enjoy the amazing graphics , but that is really the only reason. The 180 deg back head vision in IR track is cheating! And a side from dog fighting, you don’t miss it in VR.
Oh, one more thing , the cockpit instruments are all visible in VR. The vertical speed indicator in Ka50 is only half visible from centered position, in VR it is full moon! FA 18 radar/baro switches are cut in half, in VR they look all visible.
I've not played a lot in non-vr, as I never had head tracking, but I will say it would depend a lot on the VR headset and settings. Quest 2 was barely playable for DCS, as the resolution is too poor. It might give you an advantage in spotting the dot, but is a disadvantage in everything else. I did not consider it worth playing. Upgrading to Pico 4, it is quite good, but I'm thinking about getting an even higher res headset. I mostly care about immersion and the game looking good rather than competitive advantage.
Yeah, spotting aircraft in VR is easy. But if you are flying something where you have no help to spot Freandly or Enemy aircraft you will struggle hard on ID'ing the aircraft since all you see is a black dot until it is so close that you will die within seconds if it is an enemy...
How do you film VR?
Dang what are your settings, I run vr but always feel at a disadvantage running at 20 fps amd lowest settings 😭
I have a 3090ti and a ryzen 9 3900x
It's actually your CPU. I have a Asus Strix 1080 and getting better FPS than you. I upgraded to the i7 11700k last year and my FPS almost doubled. With a 3090 ti you should be getting 45+ fps. I get 30-35fps in the F-18. Use to get 40-45 before 2.8 came out. I use OpenXR Toolkit and OpenComposite instead of SteamVR.
@@ComdrStew Are you able to use those with the Index? I swear there used to be times where id get 45 to 50fps but now it seems to be struggling whenever i get on the Enigma's CW Server or some other ones that have more than 30 people. I just wish i had a smooth experience with vr, would be a much better game for me if it was!
@@Gperalta Not sure with the Index, I'm on the G2. It's the new update 2.8, it hurt VR. I use to get 35 in the Apache, now I get around 22-24. I'm going to be upgrading my graphics card in a month or two. My friend got the 7900 XTX and he is getting 60-80fps in the F-18.
What are your specs? I am running an HP Reverb G2, 5800X3D, and a 6800XT and can barely see outside of my cockpit. For me, 1440(the only monitor I have) is far superior. I would love to know how you are running this in a game that is defently not optimized for VR.
I saw better on 1080p flat screen than I do in my Pimax VR
For me the weather look different to me. I have a very hard time picking out aircraft my self.