Sorry guys, I know I'm wading into a topic that can be controversial here in the dual sport community. Ride what you ride and enjoy what you use! But as for me... I'm done with 50 50 tires and I thought I'd finally share why. Hopefully this saves others the pain, money, and time I've lost with these tires which I feel are a flawed design from the getgo. Here are the tires I'm using and am happy with: Kenda 270 Rear: everideadv.com/k270 Tusk Dsport Front: everideadv.com/dsport Don't forget the Ultra Heavy Duty Tubes (I've never had a flat with these!) everideadv.com/tubes
Love this - and yes - TIRES MATTER. I run 80/20 & 90/10 dirt/street tires anymore - and yes I ride to work and to trails on these. Happy to only get 2K miles if it keeps me safe. Disagree with the Tusk front in Midwest terrain. Love the MotoZ Enduro IT & Desert HT
I use my DRZ 400 as daily transportation, it's truly a 50/50 on and off road bike for me. My question is, would I have issues running a heavy duty tube when I'm on the road. I heard that they can blow up from heat from extensive on road use. Don't know how true that is.
Preach. Totally agree. I'd rather buy a dirt tire for a dirt bike and slow down on the paved sections than be picking myself and the bike up more often offroad.
Tusk D-Sports are all I run on dual sports these days. I've had great luck with them and they actually last pretty long. I know you know this, Tyler, but for anyone else who might be wondering they're a great way to go.
They’re a great knobby tire for the pavement, but on the dirt I ride in, I don’t have confidence with the front DSport. I kept the rear but swapped the front to a Shinko MX216 and found that to be a good combination for me. The only time a rear tire has doubled the life of a front tire, though.
I tell people buy the tire best suited for where you need it most, where you push it the hardest. Any tire you buy will involve compromise. Where do you want to compromise? You will never get the best of both worlds. Pick the world you want it to be the best in. Love your videos Tyler!
Agree! On my King of MOTOS race rental bikes, customers ask if they should have a more sand oriented hill climb tire or a rock boulder bashing tire…and I simply ask em, do you struggle more in the wide open hill climbs or the boulders piles? Get the tire that compensates the worst part of you…just like our significant partners do 😂
100 % agree. I ride 80% on road but fit my bike with 90% dirt tyres because I don't care about mileage or road performance , I want tyres that do the business where I most enjoy riding. Pavement is a necessary evil to get to where the ride really starts.
The tusk dsport front is the worst in my opinion too stiff and washes out in gravel the shinko 216 or golden tire is so much better that's just what I have experienced..and
Agreed. I feel like no more than a voting member with the Tusk DSport front tire in the sand. I really liked the MX216. I just got a Kenda Trackmaster front tire I’m giving a try. If it’s not good I’ll go back to the 216. I have no complaints about that tire for what I use it for.
The best road tire pushed too hard on the road makes makes for a crash. The best enduro tire pushed too hard in the dirt makes for a fall. Match your tires to most of your ride, and for that 10% you’re riding something else, dial it back a bit. Great video, great discussion! - 60 year bike veteran.
Exactly. Iv covered this topic many times, and nobody listens. Slap their 90/10 tires on, then dont want to ride their dual sport on the road. So now they have a 300lb bike that isnt good in the dirt or road.
K270/ 244 are the true 50/50. I ride similar terrain here in Arizona. Not perfect, but they do well in everything from canyon roads to deep gravel washes. Never felt unpredictable to me
Had 244s on my DR650. Held up on the dirt. Hard enough for about 4k of freeway commuting. And could keep up with sport bikes in the twisties. Wwnt to a more road like tire for commuting since I didn't ride dirt as much as I thought and those were the set that caused me to wash out on pavement. Going back to 244s when this set goes.
People are very aspirational in their purchases in this realm. Like buying a diesel truck to tow a camper thrice a year, many people plan tire choices to consider extreme scenarios they may only see once or twice a year. They then sacrifice 90% of their riding for 10% scenario. What is a dual sport machine but a compromise so it doesn't surprise me that so many tire compromises dominate the discussion. Thanks for offering some light on this problem. I agree enough that a dual wheel/tire package is probably the only way for me to enjoy my machine. Even the best compromise tires get torn up after a few pavement rides making them weak at best, dangerous at worst off road. Real bummer but there is no free lunch in traction.
I love the idea of having a set of super moto wheels to swap to for street use and then really good dirt tires on the normal wheel set for off-road days. Haven’t pulled the trigger yet though because I don’t know if I’ll keep my current bike long enough to make it worth it
I've been riding D606 front and rear on my WR250 including highway rides to Oregon. They have held up great too. They are so good in the dirt, sand and mud.
For a similar reason I got rid of my dual sport and Tenere 700 and am only riding my KTM 300. Everything else was a compromise and there’s nothing like the 300 trail riding with gummy tires and bib mousses. I’d rather be in my air conditioned truck after a 6 hour ride than sitting on my bike burning up tires on asphalt.
Big thing to keep in mind that 50 50, 70 30 etc. etc. are all just marketing terms. There's no standard to determine what a 50 50 truly is. Dunlop calls the TrailMax Mission a 50 50. It isn't. Continental calls the TKC 80 a 40 60 and Shinko calls the 804/805 combo a 40 60. Those are both questionable (I love the 804/805) The Dunlop D606 is one of the few tires whose marketed dirt/street use ratio is marketed somewhat accurately. I run most of my tires on big bikes over some pretty aggressive terrain and they do well, but I'm also accustomed to it. If you're going from riding a super grippy/aggressive tire, to a less grippy, aggressive tire, your riding habits are going to be different and likely won't be conducive to maintaining good sidewall bite/grip, especially in loose stuff. On the whole I agree that a "50 50" tire is a bad idea on a proper DualSport, but then again a 606 is equally bad on a midweight ADV bike at 75-80mph for 400 miles to get to the start of an intended destination. It's all about finding what works best for you, and since your backyard is basically a desert playground, a more aggressive tire definitely makes the most sense. Rubber side down and heal fast.
I've liked the Shinko 804/805 Big blocks. But the terrain/surface is very different in VA. They are great for gravel/ crappy pavement. Which is what most of the ADV riding around here is. Hitting the trails or anything more serious, my DRZ has straight up dirt tires or maybe TUSK DS.
Also way wetter than here in AZ/UT, I was out in Virginia last month and completely forgot how slicker the roads are there with how much longer rain lays on the road there. Within a within a few hours the roads are completely dry from the heat with a new layer of thin dust lol
I think a major factor that people aren't thinking about with tires is the weight of their bike (and themselves) and the mechanical grip that gives you. Aside from tread patterns actually changing from tire size to tire size for certain brands, the same tires are going to work differently for a WR250R vs a R1200GSA. My point here is that you likely can get away with more on a heavier bike specifically with traction (if you're doing your part), especially on the road.
Dunlap D606 wasn't totally horrible on my Suzuki DR650. I've done High Desert OHV areas and commuted to work. Just bad life span. Definitely not as good as my true off road knobbys, but I didn't expect them to be. I went with Mitas 07 Dakar for my Tiger 900 Rally Adventure Bike. Those are not that great off road, pretty good on road, but I don't ride that bike aggressive off road.
Rear D sport is good off road and long lasting. That front D sport is garbage! Washes out too easily and short lived. Im running an IRC TR8 front. Long lasting and performs off road. I would run Kenda Trakmaster front and rear if they lasted longer.
Since the comments are mostly opinion, here's my setup on the KLR650- rear= Dunlop 606, front= Pirelli MT21. I super happy with this setup and it has great traction on both dirt and pavement. My opinion for my riding style 😊
i ran that combo on my drz it seemed to have a bit more headshake at 65+ on gravel then the d606 front does but both start to wobble, maybe i should ride slower lmao
People arent smart enough to understand on light bikes you can get away with more aggressive tyres, they read reviews and do reviews without even understanding what bike is being talked about, a tyre good on a big bike doesn’t always equate to be good on a lighter bike
I have tkc80s and I'm OK with the rear. The front is bad, but the rear is adequate for what I do. Besides I just put just under 6k miles on them and only just replaced the rear. The front is still going.
I agree that those tires should never have been on your dual sport / hard enduro bike… busted ribs three times!!!??? I’d have swapped tires after the first instance 😂 I recommend running the most aggressive tires that allow you to accomplish what you want off-road… can’t “find more traction” off road on a street tire…. But you can always “find more street traction” with a knobby by slowing down and backing off the throttle. 50/50 have their place…. But not on an enduro / Dual Sport
Any tyre is a compromise. So choose the right tyre for your ambitions. I'll take a 50-50 tyre (Heidenau Ranger) on my old Transalp 600 for 3,000 miles of offroad Romania. But we avoid extreme tracks and hope for sunny weather, not a mudfest ;-) Enjoy your hot summer, Günter/Nürnberg
I totally agree with you.I ride a 2023 KTM 350 EXC-F and a 2017 KTM 1090 R in a variety of off-road conditions in Colorado. I only ride full dirt tires, and although my pavement rides to the trails are ridden at lower speeds, my off-road performance keeps me feeling safe. I work as a sports medicine chiropractor/acupuncturist/massage therapist, and I really have compassion for the injuries you mentioned. Thanks for the Kove videos, I am looking forward to your report of findings after you ride yours!
Agree, heck I rode around the country on a 70/30 Motoz. They work great on the pavement and you have all the traction you need on the dirt. Motoz Dual Venture and Adventure all the way. Rallz are fantastic as well.
Ive been thinking of putting a motoz dv on the front of my dirt bike. I’ve got one on my adventure bike and like it, but not sure if it would be aggressive enough on my SWM 300
I'm shocked at how much grip I get with Shinko 705s off road, everywhere except mud. If I'm only doing dirt, I put my extra wheel set on loaded with Kenda Track master 2. IMHO, these are excellent values.
I’d think it’s pretty obvious you shouldn’t run a 50/50 tire on a dirt bike or dual sport. I didn’t even know they made them in small bike sizes. I run the Bridgestone AX41 on my ADV bikes and it’s my absolute favorite! Also, I don’t think I’ve ever blamed my crashes on a tire type. That’s a little low.
Those AX41’s are way better than Tractionator adv’s on a T700 , and Karoo4’s are even better, but they are all built for purpose, so Scorpion rally race is the one to use if you’re riding a Adventure bike in the harder stuff.
@@RugerM77 I’m in Australia and I did a 13000klm trip with road and dirt , the AX41 worked great at 28psi, but these Karoo4’s are great, I think they won’t last long though, Sand rock clay tarmac 👍
TKC 80s are evil. I dumped them from my Six Days 450 before I took the bike in the dirt. I switched to an MT21 front and D-Sport rear. I have ran MT21 on the rear from 1995-2005, then I switched to the D606 rear. I now have D Sport on the rear of my DRZ and still have the same one on my 450. I will NEVER run a D606 or D Sport on the front . I’ve seen people who are very good riders have crashes due to the nature of the D606 front. The D Sport is a near carbon copy of the D606 front.
Funny, those are the highest rated 50/50 tire at the moment. But you're right. Those are great on road, and better in dirt than anything else that is comparable on road. But yeah, 50/50 tires are the worst. My 890 adventure gets 80/20 motoz tires. My 450 xcw gets DOT knobbies.
Hope you don’t laugh until your ribs heal. I’m thinking of those D-Sport or the Motoz Tractionator for my KLR. Problem is, I like more Colorado dirt but still want to perform on asphalt canyons and twisties.
I can't remember the model, but way back in the day I used to always buy this one particular Cheng Shin model out of a JC Whitney catalog to put on my (now) vintage Japanese Enduro's. It looked a lot like that Shinko you have there only wider spacing between the lugs. Loved those tires for on/off road.
Agreed.. Impossible to really learn motorcycle maneuvering on Dual Sport Tires. They waunder all over the pavement! Dropped the bike twice in the Parking lot, sliding the front out. UnStable At ANY Lean. Trash them on the street.
The #1 reason people put 90/10 tires on a dual sport is to compensate for lack of skill, and a lot of times knowledge/experience. They dont have their sag set correctly, so the front will skate on any terrain when pushed hard. They dont adjust their air pressure correctly to terrain, so they are running on a 1" surface of contact patch offroad. Then they put a rack on back, and 30lbs more weight further throwing their weight distribution off. So on go the full knobbies, and now they dont like how their bike feels on pavement and they dont want to wear off their expensive tires. Now they have a +300lb bike that isnt great in the dirt or pavement. I understand if u live the western states where all the roads are dirt, or u need a plated bike to ride offroad some areas. But most peoples "offroad" is dirt and gravel roads where their full knobby front does even worse
Finally someone agrees with me that the ax41 adventurecross are horrible tyres (tires) 1400 miles I got out of them on my Tenere 700 and they were destroyed. Decent grip in the dry offroad, at best, average grip on road.
I have always bought tires for the worst case conditions, and think of them as wear parts. I also use premium gas, top notch oil, etc. but those are more debatable. I think of it as insurance. I would much rather get 1500 perfect miles from a 150 dollar tire than feel insecure for 3000 miles on an 80 dollar tire. For lower speeds and almost entirely dirt, lighter bikes should also at least consider trials tires, especially if you like to lower the pressure sometimes to increase traction. The tread on them is designed to spread out like a wide strip of velcro. Wear out like bubblegum on the highway though... Cheers, THE
Sorry @eveRide, but the dSport front wears way too quickly and wanders too much to make my list. Also, everyone that I know that has used them hated the dSport front and liked the rear. For me on a DR650 it’s Pirelli Scorpion Rally (not STR) all day long on the front and most anything (D606, k270, dSport) on the rear. Also, aren’t you sponsored by RMATVMC and shouldn’t that be disclosed in the vid? Thanks for the vid. I agree, mostly.
My worst 4 (lingering bodily damaging) accidents happened on my CRF300L, going at a good clip, running D606 rear, MT21 front. My other 8 accidents, where I did NOT get hurt badly were on the Africa Twin, going a bit slower, more carefully, of course, and running Dunlop Trailmax Missions (an 80/20?). So, from this, I surmise that the most recommended knobbies in the CRF300L Facebook group, could not save me from myself.
No one talks about IRC Battle Rally TR8s but I’ve been very happy with mine on my CRF250L. They hook up in the dirt and they have good pavement manners.
You sure that you aren't just riding them in faster areas that you think a 50/50 tire should be good enough (because its not gnarly)? When we expect gnarly...we slow down right. That said, I agree with you....if I need knobs for any real dirt I'll go to a DOT knobby. 50/50 tires don't give you much over a standard road oriented adv tire.
After a broken thumb and arm myself on a "50/50" in the slightest amount of surprise mud. Tusk d sports are about as "street oriented" I'll be going in the future
Conti TKC80 are a great tyre if you're riding 50% road and 50% dirt. Remember you're on a 50/50 tyre ride according. If you ride mainly dirt get a dirt tyre. I ride a Drz400sm in all kinds of conditions including sand dunes and twisty black tops. Ride accordingly!
Wait a minute...... You pay $600 for a helmet?!?!?! You don't need a fancy name brand to get the job done. Not saying go full Chinese dime a dozen crap but there is quality to be found for an affordable price.
I used to ride bald tires until they blew out. Grew up poor. Sure i had a dirtbike i paid for mowing lawns. I couldn't afford tires or gas . I used any oil i coukd find back then .xr250 1988. Damn thing went anywhere with bald tires.
I've ridden with you at the Flying Monkey Rally on the Kenda Big Blocks. They totally suck for your terrain and in Las Vegas where I live. I love the Kenda 270 though!
Yes, I always used something close to a 50/50 on the back but a full DOT knobby on the front. I have seen a number of buddies loose the front end going around a turn on gravel roads. On a dual-sport a good front tire is more important than a good rear - actually this is true with any motorcycle.
If you are using 50/50 for hard off road riding, you have bought the wrong tyre. Not the fault of the tyre/ The AX41 and TKC80 are two of the most highly rated tyres in their class with thousands of very happy riders using them. Sounds like you should be using enduro tyres, not dual sport tyres, for what you want to do.
FYI the Tusk DSport will kill you!! I’m 53 years old, ride a T7 hard, I installed the DSport and crashed twice in the first month. Once on pavement, and once on a gravel road at 65 mph. I crossed over the center gravel hump and the front washed out right before a curve. I cracked the throttle to step the rear out but the front never grabbed before going down. I’ve had it happen three other times, but didn’t crash. I’ve had the back step out nine times on the pavement. I wasn’t doing anything differently than I would have on MotoZ RallZ. The only thing I found the Dsport any good at is dry fire roads. The RallZ is my go to tire now. Don’t push that Dsport too hard unless it’s dry dirt. On gravel and pavement run a slower speed than normal.
@eveRide Do you ever ride your dual sport on the road? I have never seen a video of you doing so. If you only ride off road, why do you ride a dual sport? Why not buy an enduro bike and slap some turn signals and a mirror on it? If nothing else you'll get better tires from the factory. 😅
I've had good luck running the Maxxis Desert IT/Maxxcross IT for dual-sport use. Great off road and handle just as well on road as any DOT knobby tire. They hold up pretty well on pavement too.
My theory is that the big block tires Tyler doesn't like are only best for big heavy bikes. They have stiffer sidewalls that need big loads to force them to conform to the riding surface. My favorite combo for DR650s was Kenda K270 rear and IRC TR8 for the front. Dunlop D606s that came on a WR250R worked well for adventuring and lasted a long time on that light (for adventuring) bike.
The IRC TR8 front is my secret weapon. That's a very good tire combo in my experience for most dual sport rides. More gnarly rides and I go with Kenda K760 front and back. They're great, but don't last long.
50/50 tires are the most stupid idea. Why would you sacrifice traction where you need it (offroad) for safety reasons just for a bit of comfort on the sealed road. Riding on knobby tires on the highway isnt that bad, its not dangerous. Riding on 50/50 tires offroad is dangerous because youve significantly nerfed your braking ability on dirt.
im a motoz tire fanboy. Desert HT or Rallz all day on my DRZ400S and DR650. The offroad performance is fantastic and the street performance is really good for a knobby. I know a lot of people swear by Tusk Dsports and dont get me wrong that is an ok tire, but the sidewall is way to stiff on those things and if you have to do a trail side repair with dsports on then good freaking luck. not to mention those dsports are sketch on the tarmac.
yep, i am also very disapointed about the battleaxe, wear like crazy and isnt good. The TKC 80 are dagerouis when it is cold and wet and not good offroad.
It’s been my experience, that any tire (even Mx tires) that have that straight through slot in them Suck. Tires like the ones below in your vehicle, that have lugs blocking the ends of those groves. Always have better traction.
Not sure why you would put adventure bike tires on a dual sport. I ran those tires on 2 bdr's back to back. I got 4500 miles out of the rear with a 100 lbs of gear. I love how they gripped on gravel and larger rocks. They corner very well on pavement and they are very stable under hard braking. Great in the rain also
come to the MOTOZ side for dual sport tires after trying many brands and dirt/street ratios all were found to be dissapointing after comparing them to motoz equivelents. have em on my dr650 and my super tenere solid set of rubber and worth the $$
I have a dr650 with the adventure tires it came with. The most noticeable 'feature' is when you lean them over. Having just ridden a bunch of mx style bikes (light off-road with me on them), when you lean them an/or intentionally slip the rear a little, you slip a little, then there is this biting edge re-engagement that claws it's way back into traction. *The adventure tires have none of that.* If you lean them over and they start to slip, there is no edge bite traction regain. They keep slipping and it gets rapidly worse. (yes, I did experiment and push them to see how they behaved, and apparently how the dirt tastes) My advice: whatever compromise-tire you are considering, get something that people are rating well for it's leaned-over edge traction. For example, I'm looking at comparable tusk and Shinko tires to replace the trash tires on that DR. *_For the models reviewed_* head to head, the tusk were half the price but 80% life, a good bargain. But the Shinko's were noted as riding better at lean, having higher traction there and more smoothly/predictably transitioning past traction and back into traction. I consider that up-sale a worthwhile safety investment, considering my lacking rider skill. If I was broke, either of those would be a huge gain vs street side profile tires.
Sorry about your ribs. I've cracked mine a few times, and yup, every time the doctor says there's nothing to be done...except try not to laugh. Didn't even get it looked at last time it happened.
I went 80 20. I prefer street i know dirt like the back of my hand. I can ride dirt on slicks. But street is way less forgiving when you slide out on side knobbies made for dirt.
This spring I was doing a bit more road riding so I switched my motoz tractionator Enduro I/T rear back to a d606. It was okay for the spring because there was nice dirt here, but once it dried out I seriously can't WAIT to put my motoz back on. Sure it's really loud on the road but in the dirt it's just so worth it.
Stop buying overweight dualsport bikes. I had a xr650L. Wasn't a good streetbike even shittier dirtbike. Only cycle I regret buying. I will never own a dual sport ever again.
The big problem with the "50 50" tires is that the performance is inconsistent. Every tire of this type I've used has hooked up decently well in a straight line, but whenever I leaned the bike over to steer I felt like I was throwing some dice to see if the tire maintained traction consistently or instantly threw me to the floor. I think this is the reason you see a lot of novice dualsporters dropping to first gear for every corner, or looking silly riding with their legs outstretched.
I agree 1st-hand. If you look at the tires everride hated, they stop having knobs way far from the edges, so the edge transition is rapidly off knobs onto smooth. An MX tire has aggressive knobs sticking out and when leaned over those knobs stick out and claw traction. There are dual purpose tires that have good edge knobs, but you have to specifically look for that.
Totally agree, I used d606s on my DRZ and they were okay on the road but terrible in mud. Even when aired down the back end would slip out without warning. Moved to a soft enduro tire and it made a world of difference offroad
Motoz Tractionator Enduro S/T (not the I/T). I’ve been using them for 5+ years. Amazing huge knobbies which are stacked in a way which makes them surprisingly smooth on road. The S/T model stands for Soft Terrain and makes the tire last much much longer than the I/T (intermediate terrain). I’ve raced these tires in NETRA enduro and turkey run events with extremely technical terrain. I would suggest everyone try them at least once because they are the best I’ve found in terms of gnarly grip with good dual sport road handling.
That's what I've got too. I'm pretty impressed with the Motoz Tractionator on the rear wheel of my Surron Ultra Bee. I'm almost 100% off-road though. I've no need for on-road or DOT approved tires. I'm trying to get the front version of it now. but it's hard to find in 70/100-19 in Mongolia. I'll have to import another brand with similar off-road capabilities.
@@martinfoster5163 Even with their DOT approval I feel they could be sold as non DOT easily. But I don’t know enough about tires to make that determination. All I know is everyone who sees them is surprised they’re road legal.
Sorry guys, I know I'm wading into a topic that can be controversial here in the dual sport community. Ride what you ride and enjoy what you use! But as for me... I'm done with 50 50 tires and I thought I'd finally share why. Hopefully this saves others the pain, money, and time I've lost with these tires which I feel are a flawed design from the getgo. Here are the tires I'm using and am happy with:
Kenda 270 Rear: everideadv.com/k270
Tusk Dsport Front: everideadv.com/dsport
Don't forget the Ultra Heavy Duty Tubes (I've never had a flat with these!)
everideadv.com/tubes
It gave me an excuse to rant about you so I'm all good.😁
Love this - and yes - TIRES MATTER. I run 80/20 & 90/10 dirt/street tires anymore - and yes I ride to work and to trails on these. Happy to only get 2K miles if it keeps me safe. Disagree with the Tusk front in Midwest terrain. Love the MotoZ Enduro IT & Desert HT
Nothing to apologize for here. I thought it was a very fair assessment and rather mild for a “rant.” 😜 Thanks for the video Tyler!
Would you still recommend them for a large bike like the Africa twin?
I use my DRZ 400 as daily transportation, it's truly a 50/50 on and off road bike for me. My question is, would I have issues running a heavy duty tube when I'm on the road. I heard that they can blow up from heat from extensive on road use. Don't know how true that is.
Preach. Totally agree. I'd rather buy a dirt tire for a dirt bike and slow down on the paved sections than be picking myself and the bike up more often offroad.
Tusk D-Sports are all I run on dual sports these days. I've had great luck with them and they actually last pretty long. I know you know this, Tyler, but for anyone else who might be wondering they're a great way to go.
They’re a great knobby tire for the pavement, but on the dirt I ride in, I don’t have confidence with the front DSport. I kept the rear but swapped the front to a Shinko MX216 and found that to be a good combination for me. The only time a rear tire has doubled the life of a front tire, though.
Love those tires! Very affordable with great performance!
@@jwaller1327 yeah the front sucks
I tell people buy the tire best suited for where you need it most, where you push it the hardest.
Any tire you buy will involve compromise. Where do you want to compromise?
You will never get the best of both worlds. Pick the world you want it to be the best in.
Love your videos Tyler!
Agree! On my King of MOTOS race rental bikes, customers ask if they should have a more sand oriented hill climb tire or a rock boulder bashing tire…and I simply ask em, do you struggle more in the wide open hill climbs or the boulders piles? Get the tire that compensates the worst part of you…just like our significant partners do 😂
100 % agree. I ride 80% on road but fit my bike with 90% dirt tyres because I don't care about mileage or road performance , I want tyres that do the business where I most enjoy riding. Pavement is a necessary evil to get to where the ride really starts.
@@coochb945 I'm the same way
100% agree. Buy the tire that helps most when you the most help.
The tusk dsport front is the worst in my opinion too stiff and washes out in gravel the shinko 216 or golden tire is so much better that's just what I have experienced..and
Goldentyre 216 aa is the best front tire I’ve used.
@@TheJumpn I have the shinko version on 2 of my bikes and love them..a little loud on pavement lol but didn't buy them for pavement
Agreed. I feel like no more than a voting member with the Tusk DSport front tire in the sand. I really liked the MX216. I just got a Kenda Trackmaster front tire I’m giving a try. If it’s not good I’ll go back to the 216. I have no complaints about that tire for what I use it for.
The best road tire pushed too hard on the road makes makes for a crash. The best enduro tire pushed too hard in the dirt makes for a fall.
Match your tires to most of your ride, and for that 10% you’re riding something else, dial it back a bit.
Great video, great discussion! - 60 year bike veteran.
Exactly. Iv covered this topic many times, and nobody listens. Slap their 90/10 tires on, then dont want to ride their dual sport on the road. So now they have a 300lb bike that isnt good in the dirt or road.
K270/ 244 are the true 50/50. I ride similar terrain here in Arizona. Not perfect, but they do well in everything from canyon roads to deep gravel washes. Never felt unpredictable to me
Had 244s on my DR650. Held up on the dirt. Hard enough for about 4k of freeway commuting. And could keep up with sport bikes in the twisties. Wwnt to a more road like tire for commuting since I didn't ride dirt as much as I thought and those were the set that caused me to wash out on pavement. Going back to 244s when this set goes.
People are very aspirational in their purchases in this realm. Like buying a diesel truck to tow a camper thrice a year, many people plan tire choices to consider extreme scenarios they may only see once or twice a year. They then sacrifice 90% of their riding for 10% scenario. What is a dual sport machine but a compromise so it doesn't surprise me that so many tire compromises dominate the discussion. Thanks for offering some light on this problem. I agree enough that a dual wheel/tire package is probably the only way for me to enjoy my machine. Even the best compromise tires get torn up after a few pavement rides making them weak at best, dangerous at worst off road. Real bummer but there is no free lunch in traction.
I like to have a second set of wheels so you can easily change between 100% dirt tires and the 70/30 tires.
I love the idea of having a set of super moto wheels to swap to for street use and then really good dirt tires on the normal wheel set for off-road days. Haven’t pulled the trigger yet though because I don’t know if I’ll keep my current bike long enough to make it worth it
I've been riding D606 front and rear on my WR250 including highway rides to Oregon. They have held up great too. They are so good in the dirt, sand and mud.
For a similar reason I got rid of my dual sport and Tenere 700 and am only riding my KTM 300. Everything else was a compromise and there’s nothing like the 300 trail riding with gummy tires and bib mousses. I’d rather be in my air conditioned truck after a 6 hour ride than sitting on my bike burning up tires on asphalt.
Big thing to keep in mind that 50 50, 70 30 etc. etc. are all just marketing terms. There's no standard to determine what a 50 50 truly is.
Dunlop calls the TrailMax Mission a 50 50. It isn't. Continental calls the TKC 80 a 40 60 and Shinko calls the 804/805 combo a 40 60. Those are both questionable (I love the 804/805)
The Dunlop D606 is one of the few tires whose marketed dirt/street use ratio is marketed somewhat accurately.
I run most of my tires on big bikes over some pretty aggressive terrain and they do well, but I'm also accustomed to it. If you're going from riding a super grippy/aggressive tire, to a less grippy, aggressive tire, your riding habits are going to be different and likely won't be conducive to maintaining good sidewall bite/grip, especially in loose stuff. On the whole I agree that a "50 50" tire is a bad idea on a proper DualSport, but then again a 606 is equally bad on a midweight ADV bike at 75-80mph for 400 miles to get to the start of an intended destination. It's all about finding what works best for you, and since your backyard is basically a desert playground, a more aggressive tire definitely makes the most sense. Rubber side down and heal fast.
Blaming the equipment for the crashes. My kinda guy. 👍👍🤘🤘🤘🤘🤣🤣🤣🤣
I thought the same…. Like my old dude on the racetrack.. always the tires 😹
Yep. I’ve had tires that didn’t perform well, and tires I didn’t like. But tires don’t ride the bike.
Hahaha
I'm glad I'm not the only one who dislikes the Bridgestone AX41. I was not impressed at all after all the hype surrounding their launch.
I'll stop buying 50/50 tires if you stop buying 50/50 sunglasses.
I've liked the Shinko 804/805 Big blocks. But the terrain/surface is very different in VA. They are great for gravel/ crappy pavement. Which is what most of the ADV riding around here is. Hitting the trails or anything more serious, my DRZ has straight up dirt tires or maybe TUSK DS.
Also way wetter than here in AZ/UT, I was out in Virginia last month and completely forgot how slicker the roads are there with how much longer rain lays on the road there. Within a within a few hours the roads are completely dry from the heat with a new layer of thin dust lol
I think a major factor that people aren't thinking about with tires is the weight of their bike (and themselves) and the mechanical grip that gives you. Aside from tread patterns actually changing from tire size to tire size for certain brands, the same tires are going to work differently for a WR250R vs a R1200GSA.
My point here is that you likely can get away with more on a heavier bike specifically with traction (if you're doing your part), especially on the road.
i like the shinko price on my 1150gs. i just need to get a big sipe cutter and split the rear blocks in half
Dunlap D606 wasn't totally horrible on my Suzuki DR650. I've done High Desert OHV areas and commuted to work. Just bad life span. Definitely not as good as my true off road knobbys, but I didn't expect them to be. I went with Mitas 07 Dakar for my Tiger 900 Rally Adventure Bike. Those are not that great off road, pretty good on road, but I don't ride that bike aggressive off road.
Rear D sport is good off road and long lasting. That front D sport is garbage! Washes out too easily and short lived. Im running an IRC TR8 front. Long lasting and performs off road. I would run Kenda Trakmaster front and rear if they lasted longer.
Hmm... I've have great experience with AX-41. They had never made me crash?
Since the comments are mostly opinion, here's my setup on the KLR650- rear= Dunlop 606, front= Pirelli MT21. I super happy with this setup and it has great traction on both dirt and pavement. My opinion for my riding style 😊
i ran that combo on my drz it seemed to have a bit more headshake at 65+ on gravel then the d606 front does but both start to wobble, maybe i should ride slower lmao
@@daves3016 i put glass ballance beads in the front tube and it helped quite a bit, at least on the highway.
Pirelli is a great, often overlooked, dualsport tire.
Stop being cheap and get some Motoz desert HT’s or RallZ’s
People arent smart enough to understand on light bikes you can get away with more aggressive tyres, they read reviews and do reviews without even understanding what bike is being talked about, a tyre good on a big bike doesn’t always equate to be good on a lighter bike
I have tkc80s and I'm OK with the rear. The front is bad, but the rear is adequate for what I do. Besides I just put just under 6k miles on them and only just replaced the rear. The front is still going.
I agree that those tires should never have been on your dual sport / hard enduro bike… busted ribs three times!!!??? I’d have swapped tires after the first instance 😂 I recommend running the most aggressive tires that allow you to accomplish what you want off-road… can’t “find more traction” off road on a street tire…. But you can always “find more street traction” with a knobby by slowing down and backing off the throttle. 50/50 have their place…. But not on an enduro / Dual Sport
Any tyre is a compromise. So choose the right tyre for your ambitions. I'll take a 50-50 tyre (Heidenau Ranger) on my old Transalp 600 for 3,000 miles of offroad Romania. But we avoid extreme tracks and hope for sunny weather, not a mudfest ;-) Enjoy your hot summer, Günter/Nürnberg
I totally agree with you.I ride a 2023 KTM 350 EXC-F and a 2017 KTM 1090 R in a variety of off-road conditions in Colorado. I only ride full dirt tires, and although my pavement rides to the trails are ridden at lower speeds, my off-road performance keeps me feeling safe. I work as a sports medicine chiropractor/acupuncturist/massage therapist, and I really have compassion for the injuries you mentioned. Thanks for the Kove videos, I am looking forward to your report of findings after you ride yours!
Agree, heck I rode around the country on a 70/30 Motoz. They work great on the pavement and you have all the traction you need on the dirt. Motoz Dual Venture and Adventure all the way. Rallz are fantastic as well.
Ive been thinking of putting a motoz dv on the front of my dirt bike.
I’ve got one on my adventure bike and like it, but not sure if it would be aggressive enough on my SWM 300
@RealHooksy for the little bikes a Rallz would probably be better. The DV is damn good though.
I actually loathe the Tusk D sport front, the rear is far better than it has any business being but that front wanders more than a child at a buffet.
Ditto. The front D-Sport doesn’t look very confidence inspiring. I’ll stick to my MT21 front. I’ve been using them since 1996
I'm shocked at how much grip I get with Shinko 705s off road, everywhere except mud. If I'm only doing dirt, I put my extra wheel set on loaded with Kenda Track master 2. IMHO, these are excellent values.
I’d think it’s pretty obvious you shouldn’t run a 50/50 tire on a dirt bike or dual sport. I didn’t even know they made them in small bike sizes. I run the Bridgestone AX41 on my ADV bikes and it’s my absolute favorite! Also, I don’t think I’ve ever blamed my crashes on a tire type. That’s a little low.
You should be done buying those glasses. Lol
Those AX41’s are way better than Tractionator adv’s on a T700 , and Karoo4’s are even better, but they are all built for purpose, so Scorpion rally race is the one to use if you’re riding a Adventure bike in the harder stuff.
My buddy just put almost 7k miles on AX41s on his T7 and was 60/40 on road.
@@RugerM77 I’m in Australia and I did a 13000klm trip with road and dirt , the AX41 worked great at 28psi, but these Karoo4’s are great, I think they won’t last long though, Sand rock clay tarmac 👍
TKC 80s are evil. I dumped them from my Six Days 450 before I took the bike in the dirt. I switched to an MT21 front and D-Sport rear.
I have ran MT21 on the rear from 1995-2005, then I switched to the D606 rear. I now have D Sport on the rear of my DRZ and still have the same one on my 450. I will NEVER run a D606 or D Sport on the front . I’ve seen people who are very good riders have crashes due to the nature of the D606 front. The D Sport is a near carbon copy of the D606 front.
This is the exact reason I crashed on a simple BDR trail using the stock TKC80s on a 501s. Get rid of those junk tires for a duelsport!
Funny, those are the highest rated 50/50 tire at the moment.
But you're right. Those are great on road, and better in dirt than anything else that is comparable on road.
But yeah, 50/50 tires are the worst. My 890 adventure gets 80/20 motoz tires. My 450 xcw gets DOT knobbies.
Hope you don’t laugh until your ribs heal. I’m thinking of those D-Sport or the Motoz Tractionator for my KLR. Problem is, I like more Colorado dirt but still want to perform on asphalt canyons and twisties.
I liked the shinko 244s on my DR650. I got almost 7,000 miles out of a set. Granted I was gentle with them and ran them over inflated.
I can't remember the model, but way back in the day I used to always buy this one particular Cheng Shin model out of a JC Whitney catalog to put on my (now) vintage Japanese Enduro's. It looked a lot like that Shinko you have there only wider spacing between the lugs. Loved those tires for on/off road.
Agreed.. Impossible to really learn motorcycle maneuvering on Dual Sport Tires. They waunder all over the pavement! Dropped the bike twice in the Parking lot, sliding the front out. UnStable At ANY Lean. Trash them on the street.
The #1 reason people put 90/10 tires on a dual sport is to compensate for lack of skill, and a lot of times knowledge/experience. They dont have their sag set correctly, so the front will skate on any terrain when pushed hard. They dont adjust their air pressure correctly to terrain, so they are running on a 1" surface of contact patch offroad. Then they put a rack on back, and 30lbs more weight further throwing their weight distribution off. So on go the full knobbies, and now they dont like how their bike feels on pavement and they dont want to wear off their expensive tires. Now they have a +300lb bike that isnt great in the dirt or pavement. I understand if u live the western states where all the roads are dirt, or u need a plated bike to ride offroad some areas. But most peoples "offroad" is dirt and gravel roads where their full knobby front does even worse
Finally someone agrees with me that the ax41 adventurecross are horrible tyres (tires)
1400 miles I got out of them on my Tenere 700 and they were destroyed. Decent grip in the dry offroad, at best, average grip on road.
I have always bought tires for the worst case conditions, and think of them as wear parts. I also use premium gas, top notch oil, etc. but those are more debatable. I think of it as insurance.
I would much rather get 1500 perfect miles from a 150 dollar tire than feel insecure for 3000 miles on an 80 dollar tire.
For lower speeds and almost entirely dirt, lighter bikes should also at least consider trials tires, especially if you like to lower the pressure sometimes to increase traction. The tread on them is designed to spread out like a wide strip of velcro. Wear out like bubblegum on the highway though...
Cheers,
THE
Sorry @eveRide, but the dSport front wears way too quickly and wanders too much to make my list. Also, everyone that I know that has used them hated the dSport front and liked the rear. For me on a DR650 it’s Pirelli Scorpion Rally (not STR) all day long on the front and most anything (D606, k270, dSport) on the rear.
Also, aren’t you sponsored by RMATVMC and shouldn’t that be disclosed in the vid?
Thanks for the vid. I agree, mostly.
My worst 4 (lingering bodily damaging) accidents happened on my CRF300L, going at a good clip, running D606 rear, MT21 front. My other 8 accidents, where I did NOT get hurt badly were on the Africa Twin, going a bit slower, more carefully, of course, and running Dunlop Trailmax Missions (an 80/20?). So, from this, I surmise that the most recommended knobbies in the CRF300L Facebook group, could not save me from myself.
The rubber ages , especially softer compounds , when they age , they age badly.
R U by *any* chance in touch w\ Kyle Bradshaw? same question about MOTOZ tires brand?
No one talks about IRC Battle Rally TR8s but I’ve been very happy with mine on my CRF250L. They hook up in the dirt and they have good pavement manners.
You sure that you aren't just riding them in faster areas that you think a 50/50 tire should be good enough (because its not gnarly)? When we expect gnarly...we slow down right.
That said, I agree with you....if I need knobs for any real dirt I'll go to a DOT knobby. 50/50 tires don't give you much over a standard road oriented adv tire.
After a broken thumb and arm myself on a "50/50" in the slightest amount of surprise mud. Tusk d sports are about as "street oriented" I'll be going in the future
Conti TKC80 are a great tyre if you're riding 50% road and 50% dirt. Remember you're on a 50/50 tyre ride according. If you ride mainly dirt get a dirt tyre. I ride a Drz400sm in all kinds of conditions including sand dunes and twisty black tops. Ride accordingly!
A whole new class of tire! The 50/10!!
funny chit
Wait a minute......
You pay $600 for a helmet?!?!?! You don't need a fancy name brand to get the job done. Not saying go full Chinese dime a dozen crap but there is quality to be found for an affordable price.
Conti TKC (total crap compound). Contis are only good on the road with a ZRX1200R. Get yourself some Dunnies.
I used to ride bald tires until they blew out. Grew up poor. Sure i had a dirtbike i paid for mowing lawns. I couldn't afford tires or gas . I used any oil i coukd find back then .xr250 1988. Damn thing went anywhere with bald tires.
I've ridden with you at the Flying Monkey Rally on the Kenda Big Blocks. They totally suck for your terrain and in Las Vegas where I live. I love the Kenda 270 though!
Yes, I always used something close to a 50/50 on the back but a full DOT knobby on the front. I have seen a number of buddies loose the front end going around a turn on gravel roads. On a dual-sport a good front tire is more important than a good rear - actually this is true with any motorcycle.
If you are using 50/50 for hard off road riding, you have bought the wrong tyre. Not the fault of the tyre/ The AX41 and TKC80 are two of the most highly rated tyres in their class with thousands of very happy riders using them. Sounds like you should be using enduro tyres, not dual sport tyres, for what you want to do.
I really like the MotoZ Tractionator RallZ tires I have on my Husky fe350s, they’re more dirt oriented but still DOT.
FYI the Tusk DSport will kill you!! I’m 53 years old, ride a T7 hard, I installed the DSport and crashed twice in the first month. Once on pavement, and once on a gravel road at 65 mph. I crossed over the center gravel hump and the front washed out right before a curve. I cracked the throttle to step the rear out but the front never grabbed before going down.
I’ve had it happen three other times, but didn’t crash. I’ve had the back step out nine times on the pavement. I wasn’t doing anything differently than I would have on MotoZ RallZ. The only thing I found the Dsport any good at is dry fire roads. The RallZ is my go to tire now.
Don’t push that Dsport too hard unless it’s dry dirt. On gravel and pavement run a slower speed than normal.
Kenda Trackmaster! I took brand new dunlops off my klx300r and put on the Trackmasters. Wow, what a difference!
@eveRide Do you ever ride your dual sport on the road? I have never seen a video of you doing so. If you only ride off road, why do you ride a dual sport? Why not buy an enduro bike and slap some turn signals and a mirror on it? If nothing else you'll get better tires from the factory. 😅
I've had good luck running the Maxxis Desert IT/Maxxcross IT for dual-sport use. Great off road and handle just as well on road as any DOT knobby tire. They hold up pretty well on pavement too.
My theory is that the big block tires Tyler doesn't like are only best for big heavy bikes. They have stiffer sidewalls that need big loads to force them to conform to the riding surface. My favorite combo for DR650s was Kenda K270 rear and IRC TR8 for the front. Dunlop D606s that came on a WR250R worked well for adventuring and lasted a long time on that light (for adventuring) bike.
The IRC TR8 front is my secret weapon. That's a very good tire combo in my experience for most dual sport rides. More gnarly rides and I go with Kenda K760 front and back. They're great, but don't last long.
I appreciate the tire recommendations. I'm looking for my dr soon.
50/50 tires are the most stupid idea. Why would you sacrifice traction where you need it (offroad) for safety reasons just for a bit of comfort on the sealed road. Riding on knobby tires on the highway isnt that bad, its not dangerous. Riding on 50/50 tires offroad is dangerous because youve significantly nerfed your braking ability on dirt.
im a motoz tire fanboy. Desert HT or Rallz all day on my DRZ400S and DR650. The offroad performance is fantastic and the street performance is really good for a knobby. I know a lot of people swear by Tusk Dsports and dont get me wrong that is an ok tire, but the sidewall is way to stiff on those things and if you have to do a trail side repair with dsports on then good freaking luck. not to mention those dsports are sketch on the tarmac.
yep, i am also very disapointed about the battleaxe, wear like crazy and isnt good. The TKC 80 are dagerouis when it is cold and wet and not good offroad.
It’s been my experience, that any tire (even Mx tires) that have that straight through slot in them Suck.
Tires like the ones below in your vehicle, that have lugs blocking the ends of those groves. Always have better traction.
MOTOZ tires, Rallz or the Desert HT
Not sure why you would put adventure bike tires on a dual sport. I ran those tires on 2 bdr's back to back. I got 4500 miles out of the rear with a 100 lbs of gear. I love how they gripped on gravel and larger rocks. They corner very well on pavement and they are very stable under hard braking. Great in the rain also
Got to blame something 🤦
Sounds like your trying to get a knee down on your dirt bike...........
I ride a 701 with the TKC 80’s because they are good on the pavement and with lower pressure off road… keep me humble.
im a fan of the maxxis it desert tires, they last soooo long, but their not DOT, they handle quite well over everything except ice.......
come to the MOTOZ side for dual sport tires after trying many brands and dirt/street ratios all were found to be dissapointing after comparing them to motoz equivelents. have em on my dr650 and my super tenere solid set of rubber and worth the $$
I am done too. The Dunlop 605’s are killing me, literally. Don’t buy them if you go through any mud.
What the heck do you expect!? "I over-rode the limits of a compromise dual purpose tire, I recommend nobody should buy them."
I got the D-sports front and back (got a deal) for my Husky 501S. And so far they’re pretty damn good. I flog em on the pavement too
I have a dr650 with the adventure tires it came with. The most noticeable 'feature' is when you lean them over.
Having just ridden a bunch of mx style bikes (light off-road with me on them), when you lean them an/or intentionally slip the rear a little, you slip a little, then there is this biting edge re-engagement that claws it's way back into traction.
*The adventure tires have none of that.* If you lean them over and they start to slip, there is no edge bite traction regain. They keep slipping and it gets rapidly worse. (yes, I did experiment and push them to see how they behaved, and apparently how the dirt tastes)
My advice: whatever compromise-tire you are considering, get something that people are rating well for it's leaned-over edge traction.
For example, I'm looking at comparable tusk and Shinko tires to replace the trash tires on that DR.
*_For the models reviewed_* head to head, the tusk were half the price but 80% life, a good bargain. But the Shinko's were noted as riding better at lean, having higher traction there and more smoothly/predictably transitioning past traction and back into traction.
I consider that up-sale a worthwhile safety investment, considering my lacking rider skill. If I was broke, either of those would be a huge gain vs street side profile tires.
Sorry about your ribs. I've cracked mine a few times, and yup, every time the doctor says there's nothing to be done...except try not to laugh. Didn't even get it looked at last time it happened.
Those battle axe and tkc I would consider to be more 30/70 dirt/road. In my opinion the Kenda 270 and Shinko 244 are a 50/50 tire.
I went 80 20. I prefer street i know dirt like the back of my hand. I can ride dirt on slicks. But street is way less forgiving when you slide out on side knobbies made for dirt.
You pay for the doctor? What a country!
😜
AX41's were going to be my next tire, based on some other glowing reviews lol. NEXT.
NUGS! _ You called It'! - Im Calling Em That!🏁🇺🇲
Tires are what keeps you in touch with the surface!! Tires are important like ATGAT!
I love my TKC 80 on my fat 1200cc enduro... 😢😢😢
Liking Kenda Parker DT’s here in Southern Nevada so far 👍🏻
Also stop dating 50/50 women. Same principle.
This spring I was doing a bit more road riding so I switched my motoz tractionator Enduro I/T rear back to a d606. It was okay for the spring because there was nice dirt here, but once it dried out I seriously can't WAIT to put my motoz back on. Sure it's really loud on the road but in the dirt it's just so worth it.
Michelin Trackers for my crf 250 l and swedish forrest trails and the highway to get there 🎉
You're right should be called 50/10's not 50/50's!
Tires make you crash? I crash from my own poor judgement..
Stop buying overweight dualsport bikes. I had a xr650L. Wasn't a good streetbike even shittier dirtbike. Only cycle I regret buying. I will never own a dual sport ever again.
Bro your credibility went out the door when you liked the kenda 270..cmon!
The big problem with the "50 50" tires is that the performance is inconsistent. Every tire of this type I've used has hooked up decently well in a straight line, but whenever I leaned the bike over to steer I felt like I was throwing some dice to see if the tire maintained traction consistently or instantly threw me to the floor.
I think this is the reason you see a lot of novice dualsporters dropping to first gear for every corner, or looking silly riding with their legs outstretched.
I agree 1st-hand. If you look at the tires everride hated, they stop having knobs way far from the edges, so the edge transition is rapidly off knobs onto smooth. An MX tire has aggressive knobs sticking out and when leaned over those knobs stick out and claw traction.
There are dual purpose tires that have good edge knobs, but you have to specifically look for that.
Totally agree, I used d606s on my DRZ and they were okay on the road but terrible in mud. Even when aired down the back end would slip out without warning. Moved to a soft enduro tire and it made a world of difference offroad
Yeah got the D sports on my husky FE501S. Much betta
Motoz Tractionator Enduro S/T (not the I/T). I’ve been using them for 5+ years. Amazing huge knobbies which are stacked in a way which makes them surprisingly smooth on road. The S/T model stands for Soft Terrain and makes the tire last much much longer than the I/T (intermediate terrain). I’ve raced these tires in NETRA enduro and turkey run events with extremely technical terrain. I would suggest everyone try them at least once because they are the best I’ve found in terms of gnarly grip with good dual sport road handling.
That's what I've got too. I'm pretty impressed with the Motoz Tractionator on the rear wheel of my Surron Ultra Bee. I'm almost 100% off-road though. I've no need for on-road or DOT approved tires. I'm trying to get the front version of it now. but it's hard to find in 70/100-19 in Mongolia. I'll have to import another brand with similar off-road capabilities.
@@martinfoster5163 Even with their DOT approval I feel they could be sold as non DOT easily. But I don’t know enough about tires to make that determination. All I know is everyone who sees them is surprised they’re road legal.
You did a rally on 50 50.... Lol best 50/50 Golden boys 244
i love the tractionator enduro it! best dual sport tire i’ve ever ridden … granted they suck on the road
Hmmm, so it was the tire's fault you wiped out? Color me skeptical.