Hey everyone, Once again, you haven't won a prize. Also, I was unaware that my thumb would stand out l Iike a sore thumb. I smashed it with a piece of cinder block while cleaning the range. Everybody relax, when it happened I didn't even notice.
This is the first test of Norma MHP in .380 I’ve seen, and it has reinforced my decision to keep carrying Hornady CD when I can’t carry anything bigger than my P238. Great video, and I’m glad to see this information. Big thanks to Paul and the viewer who sent him this ammo.
MHP tests have existed on YT for years. The 9mm performs very well as far as opening up. Astoundingly so in fact, but it's penetration is a lil less then other hollow points. The .45acp and .380 not so much...
@@tonyjetton8352 dynamically: characterized by energy or effective action; helpful: of service. Effective, useful and is of service to everyone interested in useful research.
@@donzimmerman5829 That's not what dynamic means. That's the way marketing wankers misuse the term, and anyone encouraging such behaviour should be shot (legally and with due process).
In the beginning you mentioned that the MHP ammo was a "jacketed hollow point," and I believe this was simply an instance of Paul misspeaking. The MHP is not a jacketed hollow point, it's a solid copper hollow point. It's called the "monolithic hollow point" because it is made of one type of metal, that being copper. It's an example of lead-free ammo.
Oregon North Cal really need to split up into Greater Idaho and State of Jefferson. Its really stupid that the leftist cities have control over such large territories when the majority of the states are conservative/constitutionalists/libertarians. Nevada has alot of libertarians but the influx of Californians has really changed things. Thankfully we received some conservative Californians lately and are fighting back. Its possible with the upcoming financial disaster that we flip Nevada. If anyone wants to move to Nevada, we r making a stand
Thank you. Another great video. The difficulty in finding 380 ammo that performs well out of these short barrels makes videos like this so important in choosing ammo.
I am confident in my choice of plain white box ball ammo in my pocket .380. I get more confident every time I see "defense" JHP failing to expand from it. It's just too slow or too light for it to open right. Ball ammo will poke a sufficiently deep hole in a bad actor without over-penetrating.
It's worth watching to see what works, so if you know someone with a .380 you can give them good advice. And right now it looks like "get Hornady CD. If you can't find that, just get plain FMJ because nothing else expands worth a damn" is the advice to give.
I know it's late, but Happy Veterans Day Paul. And to your crew if any of them served. Happy belated Veterans day to all who comment that have served or are in service.
This is why I like watching Paul's ammo tests. Some people may throw shade at the meat target, but I like it because it's another data point. Everybody does the ballistic gel test, and yeah that's great. It gives us a medium that can be calibrated and repeatable etc etc. However, I've never heard of anyone being attacked by a rogue block of ballistic gelatin. This test, along with others I've seen on some of the other Norma MHP offerings in other calibers, has shown me that Norma makes ammunition that performs very well in a homogeneous target like ballistic gel, but may not perform very well within a living, heterogeneous target comprised of flesh, bone, blood, and muscle. I'm going to pass on the Norma and stick with what I know works.
I think Paul should change the meat target...put it in the shape of a guy. Maybe a watermelon wrapped in ribbs and a leather jacket? That might warm people up to it. As it is the meat target looks like a hobo that's been hit by a train....eww.
@@vincedibona4687 The meat target is a flesh and fruit analogue to a human torso, so yes you have heard of a bag of oranges lung tissue surrounded by pork steak pectorals and pork ribs attacking someone. 😄
I love the ammo test videos. I would love to see a 30-30 video where standard ammo and the Hornady leverevelution is tested against each other on the meat target. Or... a 17hmr vs 22 mag video of damage on meat target.
Just a heads up regarding leverevolution 45-70, shooting is good but the problem came when I went to reload. The cases were shorter than standard length and I wasn't about to change my die set up to suit.
The brass that is used in the Norma MHP line is a black oxide coating. Suppose to make it slicker to aid in feeding. Not really sold on how much it helps.
More wisdom from Paul! Seeing Paul with a handgun that color means I can never poke fun at anyone that owns one. My primary concern with the MHP ammo is that it may be loaded to +P pressure, which no manufacture that I have seen states it’s 380 handguns can handle. And they didn’t demonstrate proper expansion.
The ruger lcp manual explicitly states to not use that kind of ammo (high pressure or labeled +p). My kimber micro 380 has no such warning. No idea if it can.
@@markh.6687 I suspect that this ammunition is SAAMI spec and as a result won't reliably cycle a Browning short stroke action pistol with such a short barrel. As far as failure to expand, that seems down to the design (or alloy) of the bullet because Barnes can pull it off. Although I have not seen a Barnes SC-HP tested in 380 ACP.
Paul, why would I fast forward through the chronograph portion and possibly miss some of your sarcasm? Thank you sir for the informative video and the comedy you bring!
I much prefer the meat target to ballistics gel. While I understand the gel is a format that can be replicated fairly reasonably, it’s not a true indicator of how a projectile will likely work. Also, I understand dead tissue is different from living tissue, but I still find the meat targets to be the most ideal media for testing projectiles.
I really like the intuitive and consistent ammo reviews. Consistency really helps to us regular viewers cause we know what other ammo has done in similar scenarios.
Most of the Norma MHP tests I have seen have done really well on Ballistic gel and nearly always awful on the meat target or even Ballistic gel covered with a heavy material. I have a nasty feeling the MHP's just dont expand when their tip gets clogged going through cloth. I would not trust them for anything but paper. Thanks for the Vid Paul great work!
Were those other tests 380 or 9mm? I'd be skeptical that a solid copper HP would even work in 380 under typical conditions unless it were particularly thin.
@@larz101a I've since found some other reviews of the 380 ammo. I wouldn't really call it "hollow point". It's more of a segmented tip. Either way, the results I saw on gel were better than I expected, but still what I'd call marginal. Just as with a water tank test, I'd consider a gel test to be an _optimistic_ descriptor of bullet deformation mechanics. I think part of the problem is still that they're designing the bullet geometry around feeding and maximizing mass (due to the low density material). In that manner, they're severely compromising on terminal effectiveness and the reliability in practical targets. The Hornady XTP and similar bullets are pretty much the opposite, but they have the luxury of making good design choices because they didn't saddle themselves with the requirement to use a problematic material. I don't doubt that a reliable copper HP can be done in 380, but I doubt the need. I also doubt that any earnest efforts will manifest so long as manufacturers can rightfully assure themselves that advertising alone can sell products that are unfit for purpose.
Another outstanding demonstration of experience and scientific method versus marketing hype! Thank you for what you do, Paul. Keep up the great content, and “Keep up the Fire!”
Another Stellar video... I carry a ruger .380 in my rear pocket constantly. From all my research I decided adequate penetration was a priority with .380. FMJ's are what I've stuck with.
It, like .45 acp, is excellent for suppressor use because of its native subsonic nature. Unlike the .45 acp, just plain old ball ammo is most effective in .380 acp. It's still fairly cheap, and it doesn't cost more to practice with what you carry or will use in LoD situations.
@@troy3456789 You're not necessarily wrong. You're just opinionated. Not too many people are concealed carrying a .380 with a suppressor. At least your opinions are mostly valid. .380 ball ammo works just fine in small pistols. But most effective? It's .380. You've already made a compromise carrying it. If you're looking for an effective non-expanding round the 56 gr. ARX from Interceptor and 64 gr. NXD from Norma is pretty zippy and definitely not suppressor friendly. JHP's don't shrink and speed kills.
@@mattmarzula I think everyone has opinions of course. I haven't used .380 to defend myself. I'm pretty sure that if I don't aim for the T box, I'll need to run from whoever gets struck by that round in the high center mass zone; at least until they succumb to their new ventilation.
@@troy3456789 ooor you can use 147gr 9mm which is also subsonic, more common and affordable, and did i mention MUCH more common in platforms? can't remember the last time i even saw a 380 threaded for suppressors. threaded 9mms actually exist in the real world.
@@bingledorf I see 115gr & 124 a lot, not so much the 147 grain. Maybe it's everywhere around you, just not here. I also carry a g19. I just looked to see if what you said is true, and there's aftermarket threaded .380 barrels available for Ruger, S&W & Bersa pretty easily.
I have a 1st generation Ruger LCP. I do not like it much, but occasionally I carry it anyway when I have to wear a suit. It's good to know the critical defense has satisfactory performance. I was surprised that there was no expansion at 1000+ ft/sec. Seems like Norma would have tested that and made adjustments accordingly.
I doubt Norma would test the ammo on live targets or analogs like the "meat target." In gel tests I've seen using carry size pistols, where there are no barriers or heavy clothing they usually will expand reliably but with shallower penetration by a couple inches compared to average JHPs.
Hated my LCP until I installed Galloway Precision's short stroke trigger, 13 lb recoil spring, reduced power hammer spring and a Hogue Handall Beavertail Grip Sleeve. Turned it into a pleasant range gun by comparison. It's a magor improvement.
In reference to your timer and meet test how about 9 months ago, all I can say is thank you for your gentleman response to a prideful disrespectful attack.
I am too. Paul has a meat target T-shirt in his shop, but it's a generic cow design with different cuts of meat labeled. It doesn't translate to the meat target we all know and love.
i know everyone poopoos 380 but I appreciate you putting this ammo through its paces!!! 380 is what my wife carries as she is a small framed woman and doesnt/wont carry anything bigger so this testing is invaluable to those of us trusting our loved ones to this fine small pistol!!! Thank you!!!
I've been wondering about the effectiveness of MHPs as well as the worth of a .380 handgun, Paul Harrel delivers a twofer presentation for my curiosity! 🦓💚
You need to be really, really picky on ammo for the .380. Too many loads for it are standard 9mm bullets and just aren't going fast enough out of a stubby .380 to expand reliably.
@@nevermindme8922 Are you calling into question the validity of a Paul Harrel presentation? There are contemporary examples of 25 ACP being proven effective, even amongst the same individual user.
Paul should do a video on ball round penetration lethality! If you fire ball rounds at a meat target, what are the chances of them causing lethal damage to bystanders? How far can you be from the intended target to be in danger??
My mom literally bought that same exact ruger LCP. Was actually searching up some of your past vids on the caliber looking for a good self defense ammo choice then this one popped up ^_^
Thanks for the content. One of the online outfits has a big sale on Norma MHPs, I was looking at maybe buying some due to the price, but looks like I’m just as good having fmjs as I would these. Thank you for your well timed presentation- it was ammo for my LCP, so very relevant!
Struggled with a 10-22 all day with the take down screw torque. Trying to make it accurate enough for coyotes. I've carried front pocket 380 for 15 years. Great vid
I love the bird that shows up once in a while in your final thought's, sometimes what isn't spoken is louder than whats is being spoken. Thanks for demonstrating out in the real world and I love the Blackberries bushes in the backdrop. In August, I love filling up on Blackberries each time I go outdoors as well as other berries depending on the time of year. I've saved money watching your videos... thanks
The reason for this ammo being called MHP is because they use an all copper (monolithic) hollow point. I would expect it to have a higher expansion threshold than a traditional JHP.
@@HAYAOLEONE Monolithic implies that it's all one rock ... ... or that it's all one shadow, if you speak Elven. Ered Luin => Blue Mountains; Ered Mithrin => Grey Mountains; Ered Lithui => Mountains of Shadow; Mithrandir => Grey Wanderer.
@@HAYAOLEONE True, monolithic has become the industry's current favourite marketing word for monometallic bullets. I was simply pointing out that it's a solid copper bullet because Paul described it as being a jacketed hollowpoint. As to monolithic implying minimal deformation, I think the meat target would agree.
Too bad criminals aren’t made of gel. If we had wild jelly criminals roaming the streets then every bullet on the market would perform great at stopping a threat.
The projectile gets clogged when hitting fabric. Though the "leather skin" is a decent analog for skin, it's dry and not moisturized like skin. Thus, I'm sure the projectiles filled with leather particles never was able to open up when it hit meat or the orange "lung tissue."
I suspect Paul's "meat target" is a bit more challenging. I can't speak to the realism, but it seems like something I would trust a little more than gel even though the latter can be made more reproducible.
The .380 ACP is a slower round than most. Plus, this was fired from a little pocket pistol. So, it was going extra slow for a slow round. It is very difficult to find a bullet in this caliber that expands to any meaningful degree and still has enough momentum to reach 12". This is one caliber where a non-expanding projectile might be more suitable. By using a FMJ you can avoid the high price of premium ammo and at least get decent penetration.
@@Oldmanwithagoldpan 85 gr. .380 ACP from a 2.75" barrel going 1000 fps isn't 175 gr. .45 ACP from a 5" barrel going 1050 fps. Apples and oranges here. You're not taking cross section into account. The .45 ACP and 9mm MHP's are combat calibers that perform pretty well. Doesn't matter. Stick with what you got. Just because the .380 didn't expand much doesn't mean .45 is going to shrink.
On the tests I've seen for the 9mm and .45 acp, it's mostly reflected what was produced here. In plain gel or shooting into water, they open beautifully and perform as designed, with slightly less penetration in the gel than JHP. But when you put a few layers of denim on front of the gel, the projectiles clog up and over penetrate like a FMJ but at higher velocity. I think these projectiles could perform in warmer climates or t-shirt weather but at this point I consider them a niche round. I will also add though, in gel tests for the .45 the rounds will open up but will tumble early upon entry and continue backwards to about 10-12 inches.
I'd love to see the meat target test with the Federal Hydra-Shok Deep in .380 ACP. The few gel tests I've seen showed pretty good results, but that of course may not translate into real world results.
When I carry my pocket pistol .380 lcp II, I just have ball ammo in it. Anything else is usually silly because it's so under-powered. I'm convinced it will still poke a hole in an assailant.
My 1st and 2nd .380s were very nice guns. I learned to hand load my 1st year when I noticed I could save so much money hand loading using a $22 LEE loader in a small box (which I still have the box loader which also works with 9mm). The 1st ammo I bought were enough cases to last me 3 years (the brass I reused from my only 100 cartridges I bought) to shoot 2000+ targets and also teaching my better half how to use a pistol. I still have 80+ rounds left of the original 100 ammo I bought. I sold my 2 .380s pistols over 30 years ago. Using a small arm .380 might be the only thing between having a future and ending a criminal forever. The thing that helps me decide: If someone wants to attack me? They must have attacked tons of people before me; and after I am hurt or dead, they will do it a ton of more times to tons of more people. Laws do not apply to Criminals - All laws only apply to non-Criminals.
Paul, Thanks so much for a review on the Norma 380acp ammo, because not more than 4 hours ago (11/13/22 @ 3 pm) my wife purchased her first 380 acp pistol. She will be using her new S&W Shield EZ as her daily carry. I always like your reviews, they seem more real world without the bs. Keep up the great work.
Federal Hydra-Shok Deep still remains the best hollow point for 380. I find it odd for a cartridge to have less than a hand full of rounds to reliability function on all aspects.
The problem is people getting "well, this is a 9mm bullet so it'll work" when a .380 just doesn't have the velocity for expansion for a bullet designed for 1200fps. .380 needs a bullet specifically designed for the low velocity of the typical .380 pistol.
I'm one of those weirdos who still likes the .380acp. As far as I'm concerned, it's the semiauto equivalent of standard pressure .38 special. I think it's still ok - barely, but still viable. Besides - if you're really worried about it's ability to stop a perp, just shoot the bastard twice. EDIT - I wonder if The Harrell will remain in OR after the idiotic and unconstitutional gun law they just passed.
It sure beats a .32 ACP which was once the largest caliber in pocket pistols. That .380 ACP is indeed the equivalent of the standard .38 Special. Decades ago, police officers were carrying those on their hips. Today you can fit a weapon as capable in your pocket and carry it concealed when trying to dress around a larger weapon is out of the question. Even when you can carry something larger, you can still slip a little .380 in your pocket and take it with you as a 2nd weapon.
@@corneliussulla9963 The music is called Target Practice from a band called Riot: ua-cam.com/video/NNm8nVjrTKk/v-deo.html Be sure to read the comments there, LMAO.
i had the exact same experience with the norma MHP 9x19. decent velocity, 1 out of 19 failed to feed, & little to no expansion. i found boxes of the .45acp MHP for $11, hope to test soon
Got those included when I placed an order with Norma, (they sell direct also) it’s been sitting in my 380 ammo can and that’s where they will stay unless I waste them at the range. Thanks
Informative and interesting as always. I also gotta say I'm impressed at how quickly you can rattle off the introduction to the Meat Target. It's getting into auctioneer territory. J
One thing about a small .380, I wear it in a belly band under a tee shirt and nobody knows it is there. It's not much, but it IS something and it will make a lasting memory.
I looked up the Norma stuff. I thought the odd case color was due to them using a steel case like a lot of ammunition is these days. The Norma site says it's brass. I do know that it is easy to oxidize brass to that sort of color. So I guess they gave it a vinegar treatment or similar. The bullets are said to be solid copper. That makes total sense. All the solid copper bullets I've purchased in the past have been labeled as "monolithic". One material. So I think they got that right. That would also explain the 85gr projectile weight. Lead is 1.5X more dense than copper. As far as projectile design, Norma seems to need to go back to the drawing board. Barnes TAC-XP(B) bullets are also solid copper hollow points and they usually expand quite well in factory loaded ammunition. In fact, they often expand too well and fail to penetrate enough in testing I've seen. 380 ACP is a lower pressure cartridge as most pistols chamber in it (in the past anyway) are straight blow back designs. A higher velocity is clearly required for both expansion and more reliable cycling of the pistol. Unfortunately, that extra velocity may push the pressure over SAAMI standards. I'm not sure what the cure is here as Browning Action locked breach pistols are now common in 380 ACP. The slower, heavier bullets like the Critical Defense are likely to be more reliable in such small pistols like the LCP series. Making the bullet longer to have more mass and dwell time will probably slow the bullet down. Perhaps Lehigh Defense has the right solution for the caliber with solid copper projectiles. Or perhaps Norma can change their tooling to make a SC-HP projectile at 85gr open up properly. Given Norma's abilities with competition bullets, I'm guessing they are either just outside of their area of expertise or they are not willing to go the extra step for the necessary change in the hollow point design such as deeper scoring in the nose of the bullet.
"My name is Inigo Montoya and I do not think that 'Monolithic Hollow Point' means what you think it means." The ammunition manufacturers seem to be capable of designing larger caliber hollow points that can properly expand when fired from typical carry pistols of those sizes. But many of them are missing the point with 380 ACP. I would love to hear an explanation from the various manufacturers' design engineers as to why they have so much trouble designing a 380 bullet that can expand in the manner we've been told it should expand. I assume they test their designs before signing off on production. In R&D work it is customary to test and modify a design until it actually works acceptably, but evidently not so in the ammunition business. I guess if I require reliable expansion I'll stick with HCD or go with a 9mm or larger.
Hey everyone,
Once again, you haven't won a prize.
Also, I was unaware that my thumb would stand out l Iike a sore thumb.
I smashed it with a piece of cinder block while cleaning the range.
Everybody relax, when it happened I didn't even notice.
TOO LATE IM ALREADY PANICKING
I just thought you were going through a goth phase.
M1 Garand "thumb" occurs when your thumb gets in the way of the bolt while its chambering a round. teh sexy....
Black finger nails, pink guns... There is clearly more to it.
Damn sir, I was scared about your thumb for a moment.
This is the first test of Norma MHP in .380 I’ve seen, and it has reinforced my decision to keep carrying Hornady CD when I can’t carry anything bigger than my P238. Great video, and I’m glad to see this information. Big thanks to Paul and the viewer who sent him this ammo.
I carried HCD in my work pistols. I always found it to be a great general purpose pistol ammunition.
MHP tests have existed on YT for years. The 9mm performs very well as far as opening up. Astoundingly so in fact, but it's penetration is a lil less then other hollow points. The .45acp and .380 not so much...
Hornady CD is hard to beat
380 carry options in general seem to be one of the few calibers that buying premium is really the only choice.
@@nigeltheoutlaw unless you can accept the higher penetration with just a nice flat point, and no one xpansion
Your ammunition reviews are always excellent as well as being dynamically helpful.
HIGH OCTANE TACTICAL ASSISTANCE
What does dynamically helpful mean?
@@tonyjetton8352 dynamically: characterized by energy or effective action; helpful: of service. Effective, useful and is of service to everyone interested in useful research.
Yup
Wish he could post more videos and maybe someday live video..
@@donzimmerman5829 That's not what dynamic means. That's the way marketing wankers misuse the term, and anyone encouraging such behaviour should be shot (legally and with due process).
It's always a good day when Paul uploads. Thank you for everything you do sir.
Amen to this comment! 🤘🏼😎
True enough
Can't agree more! Every minute of Mr Harrell's videos is worth watching!!!
Great topic.. not.
@@chuckcribbs3398 sir, how dare you not like what I like
In the beginning you mentioned that the MHP ammo was a "jacketed hollow point," and I believe this was simply an instance of Paul misspeaking. The MHP is not a jacketed hollow point, it's a solid copper hollow point. It's called the "monolithic hollow point" because it is made of one type of metal, that being copper. It's an example of lead-free ammo.
Copper being harder to deform than lead, that explains the poor expansion despite the much greater velocity.
@@markfergerson2145 On the bright side they still look good enough to reload with.
👍🏻
Agreed. The word monolithic in this context is not a word of pride but actual description of what was constructed of.
Monolithic can mean "sameness"
Maybe they meant that it wouldn't change shape after being fired.
My condolences on the passage of prop 114, I hope the courts reverse it as soon as possible
this may help, ua-cam.com/video/ichP2m8D_y8/v-deo.html
Hoping for a forthcoming video on this topic from Paul.
He can leave Oregon, or (unlikely) his part of Oregon can join Idaho. The law won’t go away, that is what a majority of people on the left coast want.
Some county sheriffs already said they won’t enforce it…
Oregon North Cal really need to split up into Greater Idaho and State of Jefferson. Its really stupid that the leftist cities have control over such large territories when the majority of the states are conservative/constitutionalists/libertarians. Nevada has alot of libertarians but the influx of Californians has really changed things. Thankfully we received some conservative Californians lately and are fighting back. Its possible with the upcoming financial disaster that we flip Nevada. If anyone wants to move to Nevada, we r making a stand
Thank you. Another great video. The difficulty in finding 380 ammo that performs well out of these short barrels makes videos like this so important in choosing ammo.
I am confident in my choice of plain white box ball ammo in my pocket .380. I get more confident every time I see "defense" JHP failing to expand from it. It's just too slow or too light for it to open right. Ball ammo will poke a sufficiently deep hole in a bad actor without over-penetrating.
@@troy3456789 Yeah, and you save money too. No point spending more on hollow points that don't expand.
They just poke a hole like almost all firearms can do 🙂
I don’t own a 380 nor do I want one, but if Paul uploads I’m damn sure going to watch
It's worth watching to see what works, so if you know someone with a .380 you can give them good advice.
And right now it looks like "get Hornady CD. If you can't find that, just get plain FMJ because nothing else expands worth a damn" is the advice to give.
@@ScottKenny1978 , Very good advice.👍😁
I carry a Glock 42 daily. A 380 in your hand beats a 1911 in the glove box.
@@forkthepork P365 and others that are similar solved that dilemma
This comment thumbs up
I know it's late, but Happy Veterans Day Paul. And to your crew if any of them served. Happy belated Veterans day to all who comment that have served or are in service.
This is why I like watching Paul's ammo tests. Some people may throw shade at the meat target, but I like it because it's another data point. Everybody does the ballistic gel test, and yeah that's great. It gives us a medium that can be calibrated and repeatable etc etc. However, I've never heard of anyone being attacked by a rogue block of ballistic gelatin. This test, along with others I've seen on some of the other Norma MHP offerings in other calibers, has shown me that Norma makes ammunition that performs very well in a homogeneous target like ballistic gel, but may not perform very well within a living, heterogeneous target comprised of flesh, bone, blood, and muscle. I'm going to pass on the Norma and stick with what I know works.
To be fair, I’ve never heard of anyone being attacked by packs of pork ribs and bags of oranges before, either. 😉😃🤓
I think Paul should change the meat target...put it in the shape of a guy. Maybe a watermelon wrapped in ribbs and a leather jacket? That might warm people up to it.
As it is the meat target looks like a hobo that's been hit by a train....eww.
@@happycup9017 I was thinking maybe using beef lungs instead of the oranges, and or beef liver or some other organs.
@@Joji-cx5ml How about a " Hood Rat " or an Eagle Pass " Invader " or at Least an Cadaver from the " Region " = Joey's Midnight Caravan of Chaos ?.🤔😉😡
@@vincedibona4687 The meat target is a flesh and fruit analogue to a human torso, so yes you have heard of a bag of oranges lung tissue surrounded by pork steak pectorals and pork ribs attacking someone. 😄
I love the ammo test videos. I would love to see a 30-30 video where standard ammo and the Hornady leverevelution is tested against each other on the meat target. Or... a 17hmr vs 22 mag video of damage on meat target.
Just a heads up regarding leverevolution 45-70, shooting is good but the problem came when I went to reload. The cases were shorter than standard length and I wasn't about to change my die set up to suit.
I was hoping this ammunition would turn out to be a good performer, sadly not the case. A huge thanks to Paul and the crew for another honest review.
Actually I had good deformation in 9mm. But it looks like that .380 and .45ACP does not work great. Maybe not enough speed to deform the MHP
Not great but decent penetration for 380 and accuracy isn't bad. I wouldn't go out of my way for it but if I owned some I'd be ok with carrying it.
It’s fine compared to HCD and SSEP
Yeah...You wouldn't be dead enough if shot with the Norma ammo...
Just need hit perp multiple times.
The brass that is used in the Norma MHP line is a black oxide coating. Suppose to make it slicker to aid in feeding. Not really sold on how much it helps.
The purple-ish pink of that gun really highlights the color in your eyes Paul. Excellent choice I have to say. Keep up the good work! 👍
LOL!
More wisdom from Paul! Seeing Paul with a handgun that color means I can never poke fun at anyone that owns one. My primary concern with the MHP ammo is that it may be loaded to +P pressure, which no manufacture that I have seen states it’s 380 handguns can handle. And they didn’t demonstrate proper expansion.
There is no SAAMI spec for "380+P", unlike the 9mm and 38 Special +P versions. Caution is advised in using any higher than SAAMI spec 380 ammunition.
The ruger lcp manual explicitly states to not use that kind of ammo (high pressure or labeled +p). My kimber micro 380 has no such warning. No idea if it can.
I have a sneaking feeling that it's his wife's pistol.
@@markh.6687 Agreed
@@markh.6687 I suspect that this ammunition is SAAMI spec and as a result won't reliably cycle a Browning short stroke action pistol with such a short barrel. As far as failure to expand, that seems down to the design (or alloy) of the bullet because Barnes can pull it off. Although I have not seen a Barnes SC-HP tested in 380 ACP.
Thanks Mr. Harrell! Reinforces my choosing Hornady Critical Defense for my 380s. Appreciate your thorough testing. Meat target reveals all!
Paul, why would I fast forward through the chronograph portion and possibly miss some of your sarcasm? Thank you sir for the informative video and the comedy you bring!
The Meat Target is such a great method of testing. Numbers on a page are, after all, just numbers on a page.
And is somewhat more useful in real-world effect than a gel block. Especially with all the clothing layers.
@@ScottKenny1978 For sure!
I much prefer the meat target to ballistics gel. While I understand the gel is a format that can be replicated fairly reasonably, it’s not a true indicator of how a projectile will likely work. Also, I understand dead tissue is different from living tissue, but I still find the meat targets to be the most ideal media for testing projectiles.
Thank you Mr. Harrell. God Bless and stay safe.
I really like the intuitive and consistent ammo reviews. Consistency really helps to us regular viewers cause we know what other ammo has done in similar scenarios.
My doctor agrees and recommends more fiber. ; )
Very timely. Norma just put this on sale for $9/bx. I guess they saw Paul's review
This stuff came on sale at palmetto state armory in 380 and 9. It was an amazing price I paid. I don’t regret it for what I paid.
Seeing him shoot the pink gun genuinely adds value to the video.
Love these reviews and the honest evaluations
Yeah, with a cartridge no one carries. Yawn.
Sheesh. Somebody need a nap?
@@chuckcribbs3398 that's just a ridiculously flawed statement. *yawn
@@chuckcribbs3398 cartridge nobody carries? * yawwwwwn
Chuck Cribbs is the kind of guy that carries a .45 “because they don’t make a .46!” 🤣😂🤣
The contrast in Paul bloody thumb Harrell shooting a pink .38 ACP is hilarious!
Most of the Norma MHP tests I have seen have done really well on Ballistic gel and nearly always awful on the meat target or even Ballistic gel covered with a heavy material. I have a nasty feeling the MHP's just dont expand when their tip gets clogged going through cloth. I would not trust them for anything but paper. Thanks for the Vid Paul great work!
Were those other tests 380 or 9mm? I'd be skeptical that a solid copper HP would even work in 380 under typical conditions unless it were particularly thin.
Perfect for when you are mugged by a Ballistic Gel Block!!!
@@PSUQDPICHQIEIWC Most of the other tests I have seen with MHP has been 9mm
@@MrShadowpanther3 lol that is one of my constant worries though!
@@larz101a I've since found some other reviews of the 380 ammo. I wouldn't really call it "hollow point". It's more of a segmented tip. Either way, the results I saw on gel were better than I expected, but still what I'd call marginal. Just as with a water tank test, I'd consider a gel test to be an _optimistic_ descriptor of bullet deformation mechanics.
I think part of the problem is still that they're designing the bullet geometry around feeding and maximizing mass (due to the low density material). In that manner, they're severely compromising on terminal effectiveness and the reliability in practical targets. The Hornady XTP and similar bullets are pretty much the opposite, but they have the luxury of making good design choices because they didn't saddle themselves with the requirement to use a problematic material.
I don't doubt that a reliable copper HP can be done in 380, but I doubt the need. I also doubt that any earnest efforts will manifest so long as manufacturers can rightfully assure themselves that advertising alone can sell products that are unfit for purpose.
Another outstanding demonstration of experience and scientific method versus marketing hype! Thank you for what you do, Paul. Keep up the great content, and “Keep up the Fire!”
Wow, 4k? Congratulations on the new toys, Paul and crew!;))
Great video! I have tested these rounds in 9mm and every time the results vary greatly! Thanks for all you do my friend! Keep up the good work 👍🇺🇸
You are the highlight of my weekends Paul, keep up the great work!
Another Stellar video... I carry a ruger .380 in my rear pocket constantly. From all my research I decided adequate penetration was a priority with .380. FMJ's are what I've stuck with.
The more I watch, the happier I am with my carry round in 380acp (Critical Defense)
Paul and Crew Thank You All.
Informative.
Great video as always, I would love to see a video on the possible consequences of "mortaring" a rifle
Loved the reference Paul. Way better than the monolith reference I was gonna use... my God, it's full of stars!
As a CZ-83 fan I look forward to .380 ACP content. 😃
It, like .45 acp, is excellent for suppressor use because of its native subsonic nature. Unlike the .45 acp, just plain old ball ammo is most effective in .380 acp. It's still fairly cheap, and it doesn't cost more to practice with what you carry or will use in LoD situations.
@@troy3456789 You're not necessarily wrong. You're just opinionated. Not too many people are concealed carrying a .380 with a suppressor. At least your opinions are mostly valid. .380 ball ammo works just fine in small pistols. But most effective? It's .380. You've already made a compromise carrying it. If you're looking for an effective non-expanding round the 56 gr. ARX from Interceptor and 64 gr. NXD from Norma is pretty zippy and definitely not suppressor friendly. JHP's don't shrink and speed kills.
@@mattmarzula I think everyone has opinions of course. I haven't used .380 to defend myself. I'm pretty sure that if I don't aim for the T box, I'll need to run from whoever gets struck by that round in the high center mass zone; at least until they succumb to their new ventilation.
@@troy3456789 ooor you can use 147gr 9mm which is also subsonic, more common and affordable, and did i mention MUCH more common in platforms? can't remember the last time i even saw a 380 threaded for suppressors. threaded 9mms actually exist in the real world.
@@bingledorf I see 115gr & 124 a lot, not so much the 147 grain. Maybe it's everywhere around you, just not here. I also carry a g19. I just looked to see if what you said is true, and there's aftermarket threaded .380 barrels available for Ruger, S&W & Bersa pretty easily.
any man that can end a video in a princess bride quote is a hero... they all might not wear capes but thank you!
I have a 1st generation Ruger LCP. I do not like it much, but occasionally I carry it anyway when I have to wear a suit. It's good to know the critical defense has satisfactory performance. I was surprised that there was no expansion at 1000+ ft/sec. Seems like Norma would have tested that and made adjustments accordingly.
I doubt Norma would test the ammo on live targets or analogs like the "meat target." In gel tests I've seen using carry size pistols, where there are no barriers or heavy clothing they usually will expand reliably but with shallower penetration by a couple inches compared to average JHPs.
Hated my LCP until I installed Galloway Precision's short stroke trigger, 13 lb recoil spring, reduced power hammer spring and a Hogue Handall Beavertail Grip Sleeve. Turned it into a pleasant range gun by comparison. It's a magor improvement.
In reference to your timer and meet test how about 9 months ago, all I can say is thank you for your gentleman response to a prideful disrespectful attack.
I'm still waiting to buy a t-shirt diagraming the meat target
I am too. Paul has a meat target T-shirt in his shop, but it's a generic cow design with different cuts of meat labeled. It doesn't translate to the meat target we all know and love.
i know everyone poopoos 380 but I appreciate you putting this ammo through its paces!!! 380 is what my wife carries as she is a small framed woman and doesnt/wont carry anything bigger so this testing is invaluable to those of us trusting our loved ones to this fine small pistol!!! Thank you!!!
Another shining example of "Faster doesn't mean Better", 0~o Thanks Paul.
That Ruger LCP is what one could call "giving them the raspberry". 😉
I've been wondering about the effectiveness of MHPs as well as the worth of a .380 handgun, Paul Harrel delivers a twofer presentation for my curiosity! 🦓💚
You need to be really, really picky on ammo for the .380. Too many loads for it are standard 9mm bullets and just aren't going fast enough out of a stubby .380 to expand reliably.
380 is too small. Nothing less than 9mm is worth carrying
@@nevermindme8922 Are you calling into question the validity of a Paul Harrel presentation? There are contemporary examples of 25 ACP being proven effective, even amongst the same individual user.
I literally just bought a box of this ammunition today, thanks for reviewing it Paul !
Paul should do a video on ball round penetration lethality! If you fire ball rounds at a meat target, what are the chances of them causing lethal damage to bystanders? How far can you be from the intended target to be in danger??
I would like to see this also.
I'll add that it would be good to see if there are differences in small/large calibers, especially in handgun velocities...
He demonstrates that in a couple of videos, but I don't recall one specifically dedicated to that.
Great timing! I'm thinking about getting the same pistol as a backup. Great vid as always, Thanks.
"You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
- Inigo Montoya
The Princess Bride.
Imagin if in the movie.... "My name is Paul Harel, you killed my...(Shatner esq paus) Father.. Prepare to die!" BAM.. BAM.. BAM.. BAM.. BAM.. lol
@@infogunvault6920 lol 👍🏻
Once again, a clear, informative presentation............with NO exteraneous BS.
Thanx again...........and thanx for the memories.
My mom literally bought that same exact ruger LCP. Was actually searching up some of your past vids on the caliber looking for a good self defense ammo choice then this one popped up ^_^
The ruger lcp max is my carry gun.
First off, Love your Videos Paul! The "Monolithic" in NORMA's Hollow point refers to the projectile's one piece copper construction.
Thanks for the content. One of the online outfits has a big sale on Norma MHPs, I was looking at maybe buying some due to the price, but looks like I’m just as good having fmjs as I would these. Thank you for your well timed presentation- it was ammo for my LCP, so very relevant!
Most authentic use of factual research applied and incorporated with visual demonstration! In plain vernacular ( Really Awesome Truths) !!! 👍
Struggled with a 10-22 all day with the take down screw torque. Trying to make it accurate enough for coyotes. I've carried front pocket 380 for 15 years. Great vid
What ammunition are you using?
I'm always trying to find good .380 ammo.
@@ScottKenny1978 used 5 different ones. Rem win cci ely .
@@ScottKenny1978 I always use fmj in my 380 for self protection , it functions better and better penetration.
@@burrco3086 Yeup. I have a sig 380 and it hates JHP.
I love the bird that shows up once in a while in your final thought's, sometimes what isn't spoken is louder than whats is being spoken. Thanks for demonstrating out in the real world and I love the Blackberries bushes in the backdrop. In August, I love filling up on Blackberries each time I go outdoors as well as other berries depending on the time of year. I've saved money watching your videos... thanks
Great viddy Paul. I know that 1011 fps is well over typical expansion threshold so I wonder if they would ever expand.
I appreciate your thoroughness. Very interesting vid.
Thanks, I'm always interested in .380 ammunition performance. Most is lackluster, I'll be sticking with the Hornady for now.
Paul thank you kindly for this very informative and well done video. Your work and knowledge is much appreciated as always !
The reason for this ammo being called MHP is because they use an all copper (monolithic) hollow point. I would expect it to have a higher expansion threshold than a traditional JHP.
Apparently they used hard copper, not soft; they didn't get much expansion.
Monometallic maybe.. Monolithic implies very little deformation, and a HP deforms a lot..
Doesn't really matter.
@@HAYAOLEONE Monolithic implies that it's all one rock ...
... or that it's all one shadow, if you speak Elven.
Ered Luin => Blue Mountains; Ered Mithrin => Grey Mountains; Ered Lithui => Mountains of Shadow; Mithrandir => Grey Wanderer.
@@HAYAOLEONE it implies it's made of one material and in one piece really.
@@HAYAOLEONE
True, monolithic has become the industry's current favourite marketing word for monometallic bullets. I was simply pointing out that it's a solid copper bullet because Paul described it as being a jacketed hollowpoint.
As to monolithic implying minimal deformation, I think the meat target would agree.
MHP = More Hype than Performance
That purty gun would go well with some strawberry frosted pop tarts (tm).
I'm shocked the MHP didn't expand because in gel those MHP looked amazing, they opened right up and made the biggest wound channels I've ever seen.
Too bad criminals aren’t made of gel. If we had wild jelly criminals roaming the streets then every bullet on the market would perform great at stopping a threat.
The projectile gets clogged when hitting fabric. Though the "leather skin" is a decent analog for skin, it's dry and not moisturized like skin. Thus, I'm sure the projectiles filled with leather particles never was able to open up when it hit meat or the orange "lung tissue."
I suspect Paul's "meat target" is a bit more challenging. I can't speak to the realism, but it seems like something I would trust a little more than gel even though the latter can be made more reproducible.
@@Fudmottin yeah, gel seems like it has a lot of friction being applied to the bullets vs something kinda 'firm but squishy' like a meat target.
The .380 ACP is a slower round than most. Plus, this was fired from a little pocket pistol. So, it was going extra slow for a slow round. It is very difficult to find a bullet in this caliber that expands to any meaningful degree and still has enough momentum to reach 12". This is one caliber where a non-expanding projectile might be more suitable. By using a FMJ you can avoid the high price of premium ammo and at least get decent penetration.
I love how Paul sneaks in the fickle finger of fate. LoL 😂😂😂 as always thank you Sir for your hard work and time.
I know. Wait - what? And two what? lol
I've been especially curious on how the Norma defense ammo performs with 9mm and .45 ACP 🤔
Yeah I almost pulled the trigger on a box of 45 just the other day. But that lackluster expansion.. I'll stick to my reloads for now.
@@Oldmanwithagoldpan 85 gr. .380 ACP from a 2.75" barrel going 1000 fps isn't 175 gr. .45 ACP from a 5" barrel going 1050 fps. Apples and oranges here. You're not taking cross section into account. The .45 ACP and 9mm MHP's are combat calibers that perform pretty well. Doesn't matter. Stick with what you got. Just because the .380 didn't expand much doesn't mean .45 is going to shrink.
@@mattmarzula great point, I'll look forward to Paul's analysis of the 9mm and 45acp MHP.. if they do well I'll gladly buy a few boxes.
On the tests I've seen for the 9mm and .45 acp, it's mostly reflected what was produced here. In plain gel or shooting into water, they open beautifully and perform as designed, with slightly less penetration in the gel than JHP. But when you put a few layers of denim on front of the gel, the projectiles clog up and over penetrate like a FMJ but at higher velocity. I think these projectiles could perform in warmer climates or t-shirt weather but at this point I consider them a niche round.
I will also add though, in gel tests for the .45 the rounds will open up but will tumble early upon entry and continue backwards to about 10-12 inches.
I love the chrono analysis. It's always interesting to see.
Would have thought someone with as much experience as Paul would be immune to garand thumb
Ha I saw that as well.
Probably a hammer building that target stand. LOL We know he can shoot, but he never said he was a carpenter.
Paul has posted an explanation.
Great video. Thanks Paul !
I'd love to see the meat target test with the Federal Hydra-Shok Deep in .380 ACP. The few gel tests I've seen showed pretty good results, but that of course may not translate into real world results.
This. Besides the usual CD the hydrashok deep for 38p looks promising.
I’ve been carrying these for years and I cheered when you brought up the color of the casing!! Makes your loaded chamber indicator window useless
When I carry my pocket pistol .380 lcp II, I just have ball ammo in it. Anything else is usually silly because it's so under-powered. I'm convinced it will still poke a hole in an assailant.
I have a few boxes of these Norma MHP 380acp ... Glad Paul is doing a review ...
My 1st and 2nd .380s were very nice guns. I learned to hand load my 1st year when I noticed I could save so much money hand loading using a $22 LEE loader in a small box (which I still have the box loader which also works with 9mm). The 1st ammo I bought were enough cases to last me 3 years (the brass I reused from my only 100 cartridges I bought) to shoot 2000+ targets and also teaching my better half how to use a pistol. I still have 80+ rounds left of the original 100 ammo I bought. I sold my 2 .380s pistols over 30 years ago.
Using a small arm .380 might be the only thing between having a future and ending a criminal forever. The thing that helps me decide: If someone wants to attack me? They must have attacked tons of people before me; and after I am hurt or dead, they will do it a ton of more times to tons of more people.
Laws do not apply to Criminals - All laws only apply to non-Criminals.
I see Paul's thumb and all I can think is, is that a case of garand thumb or did Paul smash his thumb doing something else?
Paul, Thanks so much for a review on the Norma 380acp ammo, because not more than 4 hours ago (11/13/22 @ 3 pm) my wife purchased her first 380 acp pistol. She will be using her new S&W Shield EZ as her daily carry. I always like your reviews, they seem more real world without the bs. Keep up the great work.
Federal Hydra-Shok Deep still remains the best hollow point for 380.
I find it odd for a cartridge to have less than a hand full of rounds to reliability function on all aspects.
The problem is people getting "well, this is a 9mm bullet so it'll work" when a .380 just doesn't have the velocity for expansion for a bullet designed for 1200fps.
.380 needs a bullet specifically designed for the low velocity of the typical .380 pistol.
Companies reusing projectiles meant for 9mm speeds in a 380 is probably the issue.
Not getting proper expansion.
Thanks for the video Paul, always enjoy watching your content. Always informative
I'm one of those weirdos who still likes the .380acp. As far as I'm concerned, it's the semiauto equivalent of standard pressure .38 special. I think it's still ok - barely, but still viable. Besides - if you're really worried about it's ability to stop a perp, just shoot the bastard twice.
EDIT - I wonder if The Harrell will remain in OR after the idiotic and unconstitutional gun law they just passed.
It sure beats a .32 ACP which was once the largest caliber in pocket pistols. That .380 ACP is indeed the equivalent of the standard .38 Special. Decades ago, police officers were carrying those on their hips. Today you can fit a weapon as capable in your pocket and carry it concealed when trying to dress around a larger weapon is out of the question. Even when you can carry something larger, you can still slip a little .380 in your pocket and take it with you as a 2nd weapon.
Are you gonna leave Oregon now that they pass the high-capacity magazine band?
Wait for the court cases to overturn it; SCOTUS already threw out one ruling upholding such a ban.
Awesome! Now do frangible ammo for concealed carry, personal protection, home defense...
This is timely, PSA has a bunch of Norma MHP on sale and I'm on the fence.
It must be a .380 thing, I tested the MHP in 9mm on Clear Ballistics Gel and it expanded wonderfully!! I have photos and a Video to show it!!
9x19 is a significantly different cartridge compared to 9x17 (.380). 🙄
@@Hjerte_Verke Funny. I was just wondering how the same bullets would perform with the 19 mm case and its charge behind them.
@@Sableagle quite a lot more mass and heat behind it in 9x19.
@@Hjerte_Verke Rolling eyes when you basically echoed his sentiments. 🙄
Interesting... See a lot of other videos testing the 9mm version with mediocre results, only a few where it performs.
Barbie called. She wants her pistol back.
I like the video before the music comes on
Id like to know where the music is from
@@corneliussulla9963 The music is called Target Practice from a band called Riot: ua-cam.com/video/NNm8nVjrTKk/v-deo.html
Be sure to read the comments there, LMAO.
@@Hjerte_Verke Thank you!
Winchester white box fmj flat nose for me. 380 hollow point just don't penetrate and expand enough. Good video
Yup, I can agree with that...
i had the exact same experience with the norma MHP 9x19. decent velocity, 1 out of 19 failed to feed, & little to no expansion. i found boxes of the .45acp MHP for $11, hope to test soon
Loved the Princess Bride reference. Great content -- thanks for your work!
I saw results of the meat target but only heard shots being fired at the new and improved bullet stop.
Sad day in Oregon 114 😥
Always interesting and informative content. Thank you. Your explanations should be the gold standard for others to aspire to.
Thanks for another great video, Paul!
The last time I was this early, the pop tarts were still in the toaster.
I always like Paul's understated humor, like giving the bird on the count of "two" at the end of the video.
Got those included when I placed an order with Norma, (they sell direct also) it’s been sitting in my 380 ammo can and that’s where they will stay unless I waste them at the range. Thanks
Informative and interesting as always. I also gotta say I'm impressed at how quickly you can rattle off the introduction to the Meat Target. It's getting into auctioneer territory. J
Awesome review as always Paul!!!
One thing about a small .380, I wear it in a belly band under a tee shirt and nobody knows it is there. It's not much, but it IS something and it will make a lasting memory.
I looked up the Norma stuff. I thought the odd case color was due to them using a steel case like a lot of ammunition is these days. The Norma site says it's brass. I do know that it is easy to oxidize brass to that sort of color. So I guess they gave it a vinegar treatment or similar. The bullets are said to be solid copper. That makes total sense. All the solid copper bullets I've purchased in the past have been labeled as "monolithic". One material. So I think they got that right. That would also explain the 85gr projectile weight. Lead is 1.5X more dense than copper. As far as projectile design, Norma seems to need to go back to the drawing board. Barnes TAC-XP(B) bullets are also solid copper hollow points and they usually expand quite well in factory loaded ammunition. In fact, they often expand too well and fail to penetrate enough in testing I've seen. 380 ACP is a lower pressure cartridge as most pistols chamber in it (in the past anyway) are straight blow back designs. A higher velocity is clearly required for both expansion and more reliable cycling of the pistol. Unfortunately, that extra velocity may push the pressure over SAAMI standards. I'm not sure what the cure is here as Browning Action locked breach pistols are now common in 380 ACP. The slower, heavier bullets like the Critical Defense are likely to be more reliable in such small pistols like the LCP series. Making the bullet longer to have more mass and dwell time will probably slow the bullet down. Perhaps Lehigh Defense has the right solution for the caliber with solid copper projectiles. Or perhaps Norma can change their tooling to make a SC-HP projectile at 85gr open up properly. Given Norma's abilities with competition bullets, I'm guessing they are either just outside of their area of expertise or they are not willing to go the extra step for the necessary change in the hollow point design such as deeper scoring in the nose of the bullet.
"My name is Inigo Montoya and I do not think that 'Monolithic Hollow Point' means what you think it means."
The ammunition manufacturers seem to be capable of designing larger caliber hollow points that can properly expand when fired from typical carry pistols of those sizes. But many of them are missing the point with 380 ACP. I would love to hear an explanation from the various manufacturers' design engineers as to why they have so much trouble designing a 380 bullet that can expand in the manner we've been told it should expand. I assume they test their designs before signing off on production. In R&D work it is customary to test and modify a design until it actually works acceptably, but evidently not so in the ammunition business. I guess if I require reliable expansion I'll stick with HCD or go with a 9mm or larger.