Game of Thrones/ASOIAF Theories | Rhaegar and Lyanna's Greatest Deception
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Mysteries, Myths, and Motives, Part 2: Rhaegar and Lyanna's whereabouts during the Rebellion. What happened at the Tower of Joy?
Theories and analysis of A Song of Ice and Fire using text evidence and quotes from George RR Martin.
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Can't believe *Ygritte* knew the word "behest".
Ygritte tells Jon the story of Bael in the same book that Osha uses the same trick to hide Bran and Rickon. She even says all the free folk know the song. Could it just be an explanation for Osha having such a clever plan?
I would say almost certainly
this theory also explains how Ned supposedly traveled with a baby, Leanna's dead body and ser Arthur's sword to starfall and then to winter fell and was all set up and comfy when Catelyn arrived with baby Robb. If they never left Winterfell then none of that would have had to happen.
Thank you...the whole mystery behind the TOJ never made any sense to us...we couldn't even figure out why they were fighting, how Lyanna managed to yell loud enough for Ned to hear her, when she was so weak he could barely hear her when he was in the room with her, and why Ned says "they found me" still holding her hand, when allegedly the only survivor was Howland Reed, as well as about 50 other problems we had with Ned's fever dream depiction of the events there
i dont think yelling loud enough to be heard outside a tower is a problem during childbirth and quickly losing her strength with a blood loss explains her weakness shortly afterwards
Arya also hides in the crypts of Winterfell, showing, again, how easily it can be done.
I swear, every character on G of T is really another character.
in the world they live in it is very easy to pretend you are someone else...all you need to do is change your clothes and say you are someone else and stay in "character" and no one will be the wiser
The Order of the Green Hand Arya and the Waif are the same person. Daario and Euron are the same person. Rhaegar and Mance are the same person. Jaqan and Serial are the same person. Have I missed any one?
I agree in premise but disagree on the identities...I think Arya is Arya and Mance is Arthur Dayne and Rhaegar is dead (GRRM said he was cremated after the battle in accordance with Targaryen customs)...the other 4 we're going to do videos on so I'll save my thoughts for then
The Order of the Green Hand I thought Mance was that bones guy.
Melisandre glamored Mance to look like the Lord of Bones and the Lord of Bones as Mance because they needed to publicly execute Mance for desertion and attacking the Wall, but knew they still needed Mance so they did it so they could execute a POS that could never be relied on to behave himself south of the wall, taking care of two problems at once...I'm not convinced Arthur is glamored as Mance...we don't know what Arthur looked like...but Mance is Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning who wielded a sword named Dawn, which is lightbringer...if you check out our Wars to Come, parts 1&2, there is a very detailed analysis of why we believe the three kingsguard from the TOJ are still alive, and who they have been posing as
Arthur Dayane probably knew how much his sister loved Ned, And therefore helped Ned and the others to kill the two other Kingsduard, He then gave up Dawn because he didn't feel worthy of it anymore and went to the wall as punishment, I do think he is Mance especially because Mance has an obsession with a cloak.
Also, Mance(glamoured as The Lord of bones) beats the snot out of Jon using a greatsword.
Look, you're basically saying X = Y because of 2 minor similarities. It's like saying X = Y just because both have the 'V' symbol on them.
Mance = Arthur is a joke up until now. We have no indicators, no real indicators. Mance is a turncloak and a bard, Arthur is a knight for all we know and honorable at that. Different characters.
It'd be much better to say Arthur = Qhorin since Qhorin is always focusing on the Battle for the Dawn and that Qhorin can SLAY MEN WITH HIS NON-DOMINANT HAND. This would make sense. Qhorin thinks the starks are who are promised to defend the realm of men, acts as if he's been influenced by Bloodraven and his a fucking destroyer of wildlings.
I dont think the other Kingsguard are dead. Gerold Hightower is most likely Tormund and Oswell Whent was Halfhand.
What’s the purpose of Dayne going North of the Wall and organizing the Wildlings?
Mance = Dayne
doesn’t really make any sense considering 5 books in there’s nothing connecting the two
I find your theories interesting and enjoy your different perspective. Keep them coming. And thanks for all the time and effort you put in.
Thank you for watching. We do realize that what we got from reading the books does not line up with 99.9% of what the rest of the world got out of the books, and that was one of the reasons we decided to start making videos a few months back. We think we have a unique perspective on the many mysteries in the books that no one else is putting out there and appreciate people such as yourself who are open-minded enough to at least consider our ideas before simply dismissing it as ludicrous
Excellent theory and reasoning. GRRM indeed does repeat history. In terms of the ToJ, I always found that Ned & Arthur Dayne fighting to the death a bit inconsistent with the character of these two men. If Arthur was protecting Rhaegar's child with Lyanna, why would he not trust Ned to assist in protecting his nephew? Both were known to be among the most honorable men in the Realm. Could they have conspired together to protect Jon?
couldn't agree more...check out our wars to come series...there is more on Arthur and the Kingsguard from the TOJ there
I am getting addicted to your channel....don't always agree but can tell how much work and thought goes into these. The simple fact that you adhere to the books is huge....
Thank you...we appreciate you saying that...we actually regularly get people who tell us and others that we don't use the books...especially when they are talking about us on message boards and the like...I don't understand how someone could say that when there is a quote and where it came from on the screen every 30 seconds or so in our videos
Wow, your explanation for why Benjen went to the wall and showing the strain between him and Ned more makes alot more sense than Benjen just knowing Rhaegar and Lyanna ran off together as others have proposed.
Thank you
i feel like the books are going in this direction, but the tv series has already gone too far down the tower of joy storyline to match up with the book.
They could explain the TOJ scene last season away with a statement on the Weirwood Network not having the correct information regarding what happened there...no one who was there was ever committed to the network, and there were no Weirwoods around to see, therefore the network pieced together what others thought happened there and showed bran that
Honestly the TV show has to fix the TOJ scene. So does the books if they go that route. The Weirwood Network from my understanding didn't go South.
The only connection I could see is if he saw this through the still living Holland Reed.
Michael Williams they don't mention it in the show, but in the books they flat out say he eventually won't need the trees to see.
I was thinking that maybe Brynden Rivers showed Bran a false memory or a fabrication. His motivations are left vague in the series so I can't really tell why he would do so.
althea luna Whatever the case may be, Jon is *the only* illegitimate child in this whole series who's been given an extraordinary amount of book time not to be key figure in the game of thrones. And... since the game can only be played between those of noble birth, I seriously doubt he's just a bastard... like, it would be pretty stupid to spend so much time on a character and he's just some bastard. In other words, I'd say he is of noble birth - or should be - whether in the books or in the tv series.
Unless of course... the game ends in the end 😂. The end of game of thrones is the end of the game 😂 and whether bastard or not, anyone could rule the kingdom then... you know, I would consider that a distinct possibility...
GRR Martin is truly a genius. thanks for helping to unreveal the story and adding more lines to it.
I agree Ned and Benjen may possibly have been estranged for a while and that his complicity in R+L is why he went to the Wall, but remember, Ned and Benjen discussed settling new lords on the Gift. And all the Stark children are very familiar and affectionate with Benjen. If he and Ned were still estranged it is unlikely he would have visited WF so often. Their relationship repaired itself with time I think. I Believe that Luwin's words to Ned about Jon's NW aspirations are bullshit, just more maester manipulation, Luwin always being in the Tully corner, coming with Cat from Riverrun as you have said. Jon spoke to Luwin about taking the black. We know this bc Jon tells us in his first POV chapter. Jon spoke to Ben about it and Ben has the same reaction Ned does: Jon is too young, it's too soon, etc. I think Luwin probly had a brief convo w/ Ben, "hey, Stark family member in NW, Jon is also interested in taking the black." Common interests are what people discuss when they have very little in common. Then Luwin twisted the words and changes the story to "Benjen says Jon wants to join NW and supports him." With all the info being hurled at Ned in this chapter it's literally the perfect time for Luwin to slip it in. The grey rats continue their manipulation. And the ruler has become the ruled once again.
having said that, I believe your theories could be true, far flung as they sound, and I applaud your meticulous research. just correcting that one little part I believe may have been misinterpreted. the maesters are sneaky pricks after all. dragon killers n such. great vids great channel keep up the exemplary work!
They only seem to talk when it is necessary...Maester Luwin definitely twisted Benjen's words when he told Ned about it too...he didn't mention to Ned that Benjen was adamantly against Jon taking the black
Thank you
The Maesters are basically the Shadow Government of Westeros. Powerful nations in our world have them, so of course there'd be a literary one.
Throughout the story we hear that Benjen frequented Winterfell , if there was tension between Ben and Ned wouldn't it be logical that he avoid Winterfell?
Again in Catelyn 1 of AGOT Ned tells Catelyn that he himself would write to Ben inviting him at Winterfell and in a Jon chapter at ADWD he recalls that Ned and Ben would discuss about refilling the abandoned forts of The Night's Watch.
These scenarios has made me think that Benjen went to the wall for some other reason perhaps he felt guilty later about hiding Lyanna and Rhaegar?
Other than that , I 100% agree with everything else in the video 👌
I like some of the takes you have across different videos (particularly the N+A=J theory and the similar observations about the Timeline that you made that I noticed). So kudos there.
Where you lost me in this video however was with mentioning Varys and Ned colluding. Varys explicitly states in conversation with Ned in Eddard VII, AGOT:
"Varys spread his hands. "I will make another confession, Lord Eddard. I was curious to see what you would do. Why not come to me? you ask, and I must answer, Why, because I did not trust you, my lord."
"You did not trust me?" Ned was frankly astonished.
"The Red Keep shelters two sorts of people, Lord Eddard," Varys said. "Those who are loyal to the realm, and those who are loyal only to themselves. Until this morning, I could not say which you might be … so I waited to see … and now I know, for a certainty." He smiled a plump tight little smile, and for a moment his private face and public mask were one. "I begin to comprehend why the queen fears you so much. Oh, yes I do."
If Varys and Ned had been working together prior--if Ned had given him Aegon to start with, then the above conversation makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Varys would already know what kind of man Eddard is, would already trust him, and there'd be no need to ponder the question. Why mistrust the man who gave you your Prince Who Was Promised? Heck, why tell him that you mistrusted him in the first place?
To be fair, Varys could be referring to that he doesn't know what kind of man Ned's become since the end of the war and having raised a family in Winterfell, but if that were the case, then Varys would have said: "I could not say which you might have become" instead of "might be".
This working relationship is the one I find hardest to swallow.
All your videos are very skilfully and intelligently made. Your theories make sense not always have to be correct that's why they're theories. Whoever is making threats and making ignorant comments on your videos are jealous and hating on your intellect. Keep it rolling I enjoy your videos and I've sworn myself to protect you and yours.
Thank you...we appreciate it
As far as your comment about Ned and Benjen not talking. First Benjen is not a fan of Jon joining the night's watch so young. He blatantly says it during their convo at the feast. So no surprise he wouldn't mention it to Ned. Luwin has his own motivations for bringing it up and beats Benjen to the punch. Doesn't mean they didn't talk, they just didn't talk about Jon wanting to join the watch. Remember we only get Jon's POV during the feast. Notice what Ned says during the end of the convo about Jon going to the wall with Luwin.
Maester Luwin said, "There is great honor in service on the Wall, my lord.""And even a bastard may rise high in the Night's
Watch," Ned reflected. Still, his voice was troubled. "Jon is so young.
If he asked this when he was a man grown, that would be one thing, but a
boy of fourteen . . . "
"A hard sacrifice," Maester Luwin agreed. "Yet these are hard times, my lord. His road is no crueler than yours or your lady's."
Catelyn thought of the three children she must lose. It was not easy keeping silent then.
Ned turned away from them to gaze out the window,
his long face silent and thoughtful. Finally he sighed, and turned back.
"Very well," he said to Maester Luwin. "I suppose it is for the best. I WILL SPEAK TO BEN."
Catelyn II GOT
Then in the next bran chapter this happens.
The hunt left at dawn. The king wanted wild boar at the feast
tonight. Prince Joffrey rode with his father, so Robb had been allowed
to join the hunters as well. UNCLE BENJEN, Jory, Theon Greyjoy, Ser
Rodrik, and even the queen's funny little brother had all ridden out
with them. It was the last hunt, after all. On the morrow they left for
the south." Bran II GOT
You think they went on the whole hunt with out talking? I don't think benjen would go, or be invited if they weren't talking. I know I know, they never actually show them talking on page. But thats because we never get a perspective when they are together to talk. While Benjen is in Winterfell we only get perspectives from Jon, Catelyn, Arya and Bran. Besides the Jon chapter at the feast, we never hear of who benjen talks to while at winterfell.
Yes, we saw that too...but they are never shown talking...and why did Benjen go through Luwin to let Ned know his son was thinking about taking the Black at age 14? 3 whole days went by...it's incredibly odd...and no one said that Ned can't talk to his brother, but it seems like the brothers only speak when it is absolutely necessary
you said ned and benjen didn't talk at all when they were at winterfell, i showed you black and white textual evidence, showing you that Ned was going to talk to him. So where does it say that Benjen went through Luwin? Benjen didn't want Jon joining the watch, at least then. He says as much in his argument with Jon at the feast. When Luwin says "Benjen came to me about Jon a few days ago. It seems the boy aspires to take the black."
It doesn't say that Benjen wants Luwin to talk to Ned about it, Luwin is a maester, people go to maester to talk about their problems and get advice. Luwin used this information to manipulate Ned's decision about sending Jon to the wall. Luwin doesn't say Benjen wants Jon to join the watch. In fact we have textual evidence proving he doesn't want that. So, he didn't go to Ned, because Jon joining the watch isn't what Benjen wanted.
As a maester, in your own opinion, a former Riverland maester. There was a predicament that need solving (what to do with Jon when Ned rides South) and Luwin through out a solution, that benefits the lady of his former house and the maesters in general. . So sending Jon to the wall, ensures his kids don't make a claim over "Catelyn's grandkids" which she states. The maesters don't want a Targaryen king. So it also denies him the right of making a claim to the Iron Throne if he found out the truth of his heritage. Which is precisely why Benjen doesn't want him joining. Cause he knows Jon should be king, and probably wanted to push the claim, but Ned was sick of fighting wars at that point.
that doesn't make any sense..since Benjen isn't a fan of Jon joining the watch so young, why would he keep that from Ned and just tell Luwin?? wouldn't his first action be to tell Ned to ensure that it does not happen? there is a definite insinuation there that there is no communication between Benjen and Ned.
I think you are on the right path but will they ever address this on the tv show or in the next book(s) also?
Ned was going to talk to Benjen about Jon, so they must have talked. Also Ned was entertaining King Robert and all the people he brought with him, so time to slip off for a chat with Benjen would be scarce. Benjen probably went to Maester Luwein to get advice on wether Jon should be allowed to join the Night's Watch at such a young age, or during a general conversation it was brought up. We don't know how it was talked about between the two of them. Assuming things doesn't make them true. Think how big Winterfell is and the amount of people there at the time and it is easy to see how Ned and Benjen didn't get a chance to say anything.
just wanna say you's guys are rocking these videos, decided to watch some before bed. My brains actually on overdrive, keep up the fanatic work.
Thanks so much
for those that disagree remember this is all THEORY
Thank you Jackie...very well said
mhmMHMmhm Book is all that matters
I always thought Benjin knew about Rhagar & Lyanna, and that was probably the reason to join. I really like this theory, the foreshadowings are there. Nice video, young ones. Take care.
thank you so much! :) actually we have a really cool theory on old nan and her secret identity
Thank you so much...for some reason when we read that name we thought of it as BA-EL...I don't know why...we're so used to the names in this story not flowing off the tongue that we overcomplicated it I guess...if he spelled it like Bale we would have said it like that, but since Baelish is a Braavosi name we thought it would be pronounced different North of the wall
This also explains much better why Ned was ashamed of a previous act after learning of Danaerys' situation, because he feels ashamed that he went to war against her family for false reasons.
Jon mother was not a maid at Wonterfell. She was a daughter of a Highborn Lord, and thus her title, Lady Lynna Stark. I took a full year for Ned to return back to his home. Ned brother left because Ned had an heir. Both had lost their brother/sister/father and was grieving. No, it was explain on the show, Cat stated she sent Ned to War 17 years, and after one year he returned home with Jon. Dayne is dead, he was stabbed in a major artery in the neck.
Definition of maid
1
: an unmarried girl or woman especially when young : virgin
2
a : maidservant
b : a woman or girl employed to do domestic work
I do think they are referring to the first definition.
By the way if I didn't mention before, YOU GUYS ROCK!!!
love it, cant wait for your next
Thank you for watching...we're recording our next one as we speak...it'll be out tomorrow
I have always wondered this! Thanks for sharing
What a wonderful channel. Well done guys.
+Adam Chalkley thank you so much
Who else would be far, far away except Shrek and Donkey.
Whenever you can slip in a quote from any character from "The Wire" you just made me happy! Lol
the Wire was such a great show
The Order of the Green Hand .... definitely in my top 5 best series ever written and come on, Little finger is the Mayor of Baltimore lol
Wow! Far superior theories! I'm now a subscriber.
Thank you so much
Guys I love you so much. In every theory you make I start seeing light where there was only darkness. Thank you, you're amazing
thank you
this channel is life itself.
I don't even if you guys are wrong on some. Your theories blow my mind and love to listen to you. Hope your channel to grow cuz you guys deserve. Your work is really amazing blows my mind
Enjoying this channels twists and turns
thank you
"We fight on that lie." - Slim Charles. YAY FOR WIRE REFERENCES!
you guys work great together
Thank you
Thanks for REALLY GOOD material!!👌 I had also wonder what is the meaning of the tale that ygrit tells jon...I had never thought what you just told in the video. Now I'm really going to do some reading 😁 I can't wait for your next video on the subject!!! FANTASTIC!!
In Eddard 1: "I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father."
I am also confused on how there were no rumours of them hiding at Winterfel. I mean, of course, not that we know of
nice Barksdale cameo. Thats my wire^^ Love your thesis and cant wait to find out whats hitting the nail. And now the delay of the 8th season. Work will keep me busy i hope.
Valar dohaeris
+smiling bandit thank you sir bandit. The wire is one of our favorite shows ever
The only problem I have about this is - why would they stay for such a long time in a place like this? I mean love is a strong feeling, but it doesn't work like that. Hiding in cold, dark cripts, surrounded with corpses does not inspire love. Unless Martin wants to tell us something more... Osha with Bran and Rickon pulled it off, but they were hiding because they were afraid of their lives. The situation is completely different. And even if they hid in the crypts for just a brief moment and then stayed in the castle someone had to notice them. Someone else than Benjen. And even in the north, in such a place like Winterfell, there are gossip. News like a romance between a Prince and a Lady Stark?
We think they likely made their way to the broken tower after Ned marched south
This feels like I know a little too much now! Mad videos, so complex, very convincing. And - Benjen has gone missing, with GRRM stating that he has not become Coldhands. So what is he up to?
This is crazy. Love it!
I love how you present your content. I notice you have a little over one thousand subscribers. Here's to you reaching one HUNDRED thousand!
+mrS Thank you. A little over 2 months ago when we started we never even dreamed we'd get 1,000 subscribers. 100,000 seems a tall goal, but who knows, and thanks again
The Order of the Green Hand 100K is 'do-able'. Millions and millions of people visit UA-cam for good content. I follow a couple of GOT content producers, a couple of 'walking dead' ones and Arthur Isaac who makes science speculation videos. , I've seen 'em grow exponentially from a few hundred to thousands in a matter of months(~12), as word gets out about their great content....peace!
The Order of the Green Hand , I just found you today. I have been with the last harpy since he had approx 30k. he's almost at 200k and a year hasn't past. I hope you'll have great success. I read a theory that bael is actually rhaegar, since rhaegars body was never recovered from the ruby ford. Thoughts?
When I discovered them two months ago, they had 1000 subscribers , now they're nearly 7000! I love their content.
Donna marthasfriend Thank You!! I always wondered about that.... Is Rhaegar Targaryen actually dead? The body wasn't found and didn't wash up anywhere. Maybe he was just knocked unconscious and his rubies flew all over the place....
Oh my goodness you guys are awesome so much food for thought, see this is what you miss when you don't read the books lol. Looks like I've some reading to do. I love great mystery and then all talking and speculating afterwards ! I'm so far out of this true story from watching the Television series first ugh !!! but so glad I stumbled upon The order Of The Green Hand so interesting and such commentary ! Thank you so much for this, I can't hardly wait to see your next video lol Bravo's 😉
I haven't read the books yet but this will make me read them so intently thank you 😊
Thank you so much. We feel that close reading the books is the only way to really begin to understand the depths George went to put the story together
Nice theory but... my question, if Lyanna was hiding in Winterfell crypts, why didn't she come out when she heard her brother and father were murdered by the Mad King? Why didn't she send a raven to Ned with begging him not to start a war that would kill over a Thousand people? If they were hiding in Winterfell, that someone must have found out... Hodor? Old Nan? And Benjen send to the NW by his brother, because they were angry? That seems not... like someting Ned would easily do? It would be more logical for Rhaegar and Lyanna to take the underground roads from the crypts to the lands of Always winter ( like those two brothers who were underground like Ygritte said against Jon in the cave). They could have gone to that side of the country, because that is FAR AWAY... and... it would explain why Lyanna didn't come rushing back when she heard about her brother&father. In the land beyond the Wall you don't have a lot of messengers telling you what happened in Westeros. And after a while, Rhaegar bode Lyanna to go back to Winterfell, or from wherever... maybe the underground roads come out in the ToJ?
Haha loving the wire snippets
The Wire is probably our favorite show ever
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand The Wire is best TV show ever for sure. Acting just as strong if not better than GOT, and the writing just as good.
Just brilliant!
thank you
Best. Theory. Ever.
Thank you
Honestly don’t understand n+a=j .is that the reason dumb and dumber got the job is because they guessed Jon mother right lyanna
Have you seen our NAJ videos?
LOVE LOVE LOVE THE Slim Charles quote.... we fight on that lie.
We used to use a lot of pop culture references but too many people didn’t get it and a bunch of people were trying to claim we’re racist for using the Wire so we decided it wasn’t worth it. Best show ever created though
So, I am going to have to go back and re-read the books again. You make excellent points!
thank so much!
Liked and subscribed!
Yay! Thank you!
And I'm proud to be subscriber Nr.832;-)
We're proud to have you as a subscriber
Love the continuous references to The Wire, such a great show. I've only read the books once back in 2014 but I still remember the story of Bael the Bard very well, however I forgot the part about them hiding out in Winterfell the whole time, and thinking about the Tower of Joy now, after seeing GRRM's comments and your theorising, something surely seems off with that, very interesting.
the Wire was sooo good...the ToJ narrative bothered us the very first time we read it...we were like, why did they fight? it really seems like they should have had a much different conversation before swords were drawn
It's probably the best TV show ever made! I just took it at face value but thinking back on it now, there really wasn't much reason for them to fight and a whole lot of shit to do with ToJ doesn't add up at all, like when you said why would Rhaegar leave Lyanna in the mountains of Dorne with the situation being what it was at the time, the answer is he wouldn't, I was like yeah that makes no sense, I think your ideas about all of this may be close to the truth.
I love your videos so far. You do a very good job of overall textual analysis to backup your theories. What is your opinion on the parentage of the Lannister twins?
thank you! we have a few theories on the whole Tywin, Jaime, Cersei thing. We will do a video. What are your thoughts?
The Order of the Green Hand
www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/547c0w/spoilers_extended_a_finite_ish_list_of/d7zz6z5
best summarises it.
Interesting...sorry I can't give you more, but after our video comes out on it, we'll definitely get into this more with you...but he're a clue on what we're thinking...it's all about the eyes
Wow. I've read hundreds of asoiaf theories and have always been looking for a plausible explanation if what went down at TOJ and this is the most believable theory I've heard with a ton of foreshadowing and textual evidence to support. this is a 5 star theory and if in Winds it turns out they were in the crypts all along..you will have written the number 1 asoiaf I've ever read. 😎
Thank you so much! That is such a compliment, and much appreciated. Hopefully, we all find out soon what really went down at the TOJ and in general. I am so excited for the next book. Thanks again!
I love your thinking and therefore I need you to clarify some things for me (if you can):
Why the hell was there a war in the first place? -> I mean it's really logical that R+L stayed in Winterfell, but why then starting a war to get L back? Even if they were hiding in front of everyone...wouldn't they say/do anything BEFORE father and brother of L get killed for - to be honest - nothing?
Yeah she was promised to Robert and Rheagar was married - would be a bad situation but not the first or last time such a situation would happen, right?
In the end Rheagar would have been the future king, meaning the Starks would have been able to negotiate an acceptable agreement with Rheagar? A scandal yeah, even a diplomatic incident at least with Dorne...but no war!
What was Lyanna doing all the time? Just sitting there, pregnant and watching her family dying without doing ANYTHING to stop it? She was shown and talked about as a strong fighter in every means - why not acting in ANY way?
And another thing I was thinking about while watching your theories (which i really admire):
Ned helped keeping R+L's son save - of course he did. He did this with help of all the people you mention (Arthur Dayne...) and this people were and are all working on the basic plan of Rheagar. Don't you think they told Ned all about the story of lightbringer and so on...cause he didn't believe that the Whites are really coming back. But if he would have known the "masterplan", he would have expected that and would have believed the fled man from the nightswatch when he told him that the Whites are back and that he saw them in action and so on... Ned would have been in a very good position to reinforce the nightswatch - Robert is like a brother to him, he would have listend to Ned if he would have told him to send soldiers...and Ned would have worked together with the wildlings form the start??? I mean with Arthur Dayne on the other side of the wall...
SRY for the long posting! Maybe you are able to help me with this...
- For your fisrt question, you have to consider times, if they are hidding when they relized what had happened, it was probably too late, the war had alredy started, things scalated pretty quikly.
- Second question, everybody hated Aerys, he was cruel, mad and in a killing spree, so what happened with Lyanna and then with his dad and brother was a "excuse" to the rebellion. People was alredy plotting but this was the "thing" that anger everybody and finally lead them to the rebellion.
- Rhaegar "kidnapping and raping Lyanna" would mean that he would be just as bad as his father, so no, there was no acceptance for him being the next king.
- For the questions about Lyanna, we have no idea what happened, maybe she wanted to do something but Rhaegar didn't let her, maybe Rhaegar did kidnaped and raped her, we have no idea what happened between this two in the middle of the war. We just have to wait.
- At that time people people didn't believe in "The Others" anymore, if that happened, if Arthur said this to Ned, that would be just a confirmation that Rhaegar was mad and that he couldn't be in the iron throne.
omg I thought I was alone w the ned and benjen thing
there is definitely something odd about their relationship, and that Benjen, Ned's only living relative, left for the wall as soon as Ned came home from the war
I hav believed in ned and ashara =Jon for along time. you guys spell it out so amazingly. N+A makes the story so much better
100% agree
The Order of the Green Hand I am reading game of thrones again and I came across the first time Ned thinks about Lyanna in hear deathbed whilst talking to Robert in the crypts Its in Eddard I. Ned says he was with her when she died and she said "She wanted to come home" which implies she wasn't at Winterfell at the time of her death unless you can interpret another way so Lyanna should be away from home if this has any credence.
She may have at some point been at Winterfell, but maybe not at the time of her death. I am also not entirely convinced she was at the Tower of Joy because of the interpretation of the passage you guys use in the video
Later it says "They had found him still holding her" It would be interesting to know who 'THEY' are but its is clear that there were people accompanying him including of course Howland Reed, "Howland Reed had taken her hand from his", I am not fully on board with Lyanna being found at Winterfell because again why would Howland Reed come to Winterfell instead of staying at the Neck.
So I am not on board with the Tower of Joy and with Winterfell being Lyanna's place of death until further info is given to us so I am of the idea that she was somewhere else where that may be I don't know.
A Question. If the baby swap did indeed happen how did it happen? because obviously Ned would have to speak to Ashara and ensure that Lyanna's baby is taken care of but how would it happen in terms of this scenario if she was at Winterfell?
The Order of the Green Hand Unless maybe Ashara was in the North herself at the Wolf's den?
You guys make some huge leaps and assumptions
There are also parallels with Jaime's killing of Aerys if Jaime is a dragon seed.
Tunnels under ....lead beyond wall to their secret kingdom
It has always driven me nuts WHY Benjen was at the wall!!! You may have just converted me with that one
I enjoy that you both put such thought into your theories . . . But in the miasma of hypotheticals, I lost what the purpose of this meeting was that all involved quickly abandoned for bloodshed . . . After Rhaegar's defeat, with three of the Rhaegar's guard that were neither with him at the Trident nor (in your theory) actively guarding a pregnant Lyanna. (Tiny aside: Couldn't they have been waiting outside for all to see because they were occupying a TOWER with presumably advantageous fields of view that allowed them to see Ned & Co. approaching?)
Also, though it's hard to imagine two high-borns slumming it in the crypts for a year, with questionable supplies (though a Benjen collusion should fit) to sustain them . . . I don't know how you could sell me on Lyanna staying there ALONE after Rhaegar has been fetched from and gone to "far away."
It seems far more feasible that these men were tasked with Lyanna's protection upon Rhaegar leaving for the fight, and though Lyanna may not have been at the Tower of Joy for the entirety of her tryst with Rhaegar (instead, having visited numerous sites to remain undiscovered), that she was that day.
you guys have your shit together.. good videos
Thank you so much
I always wondered why if Rhaegar was Jon Snow's father he had black hair when all Targaryens had platinum blonde hair.
the thing that bothered us was the fact every time Ashara is brought up, a relationship with Ned is referenced, and Jon looks exactly like Ned...if he just had Stark coloring (dark hair and grey eyes) that would be one thing, but looking exactly like him is another
Because the STARK blood line is stronger than the Targeryans first men blood and all
Robert's grand mother was a Targeryan married a black hair blue eyes Baratheon Steffon had black dark hair so does Robert Stannis and Renly it's all about blood Ice beats fire
Guys there are a few Targaryens who don't have silver blonde hair...
Gaaaah...just love some nerd from jersey has the whole damn world obseeeeeeeeessed!! Oh it's so good. Love all these breakdowns and deep dives. Thank you for all your hard work!!
Aaaand there will be a dragon egg down there where they were hiding. Yea?? Yea?? Yea.
Did Ned sacrifice his men,except Reed whom he could explicitly trust?
I agree with u on ned being informed of the tower of joy bt it can't be varys himself. Maybe varys used someone to tip off ned or from any other source.
This story is so intricate, and the people who figure it out amaze me
it's the most intricately woven story I've ever heard of
The Order of the Green Hand I agree! It’s held my attention for so long
Very interesting! Loved this. I just love watching and reading different theories on the ToJ and Rhaegar and Lyanna story. It's just so mysterious. Also, what caught my attention is that how did Gerold Hightower find out about Rhaegar's location? One last thing though. What's Varys' real deal? Does he really want a real Targaryen to rule Westeros? Is he really keeping a real Targ child (Aegon)? I find it odd that if that really is his motive, then, why did he interfere with Rhaegar's affairs in his supposed plan on peacefully replacing his mad father? It was Varys who fed Aerys II infos about Rhaegar's motives and actions such as the ToH. Please enlighten me, guys. 😃
Our theory is that the kingsguard have to report to their lord commander and Oswell Whent and Arthur Dayne were with him
The Order of the Green Hand I just edited my comment. I added some questions about Varys on the matter. Thank you! :)
We think Varys is Bloodravens son with Shierra Seastar and he,like bloodraven, does some morally questionable things for the good of the realm in order to place the prince that was promised on the throne
How do you account for Varys being a eunuch and his friendship with Illyrio?
Bael be lookin like Heath Ledger
Gosh man, Benjen and Ned did speak when at the King's visit.
Thank you for watching and taking the time to comment. In the show they spoke, not in the book. And even in the show, the show Ned say good bye to Jon, while his brother rides away without Ned saying a word to him
The shadow knows - GRRM
page 274 on my nook anyway
refers to Verys witch I think makes much more sense. Good night!!
Qhorin is Hightower , matching hands and hair.
Wouldnt everyone see ned leave with lyannas baby wen he left winterfelll
It's sounds like Bael's son, who later became Stark King was a Warg. With the subsequent Lord skinning his Wolf form to wear as a cloak. Perhaps growing up fatherless meant that when Mum committed suicide, it was too much for him the bear, and either accidentally or deliberately spent too much time warged within a Wolf. It might not have been treachery for a new Stark leader to have arisen in his place if Bael's son went AWOL due to becoming permanently lost while Warging.
Everything Always comes back to the Broken Tower. Bran fell from there too, he sees a dragon above after fires when he wargs Summer, in show at least Sansa lights candle there to signal Brienne ... it goes on and on. U listed most of them but it reminded me of All the other times too. I think it has always been about the Broken Tower. I'm curious to see what Major things will happen there. We don't keep seeing it for no reason right
Bael the Bard also seemed to have a Theon connection…
The comment at the end about the son unknowingly killing his father but still drawing the wrath of the gods and some later having one of his lords wear his skin. This sounds a lot like Theon killing his bastard sons and then being flayed by a Bolton, the only differences being Theon was the father not the son and Theon was only a Stark ward and Ramsey was only a Bolton bastard.
This screws up all of my fanfiction! LOL! Great theories! I hope they are all proven correct!
On the topic of Barbrey Dustin, he also would've had Lyanna's body if he had come up from the neck (which he probably would have had she actually been there) as Barrowton is not that far off course from WInterfell, and she makes no mention of Lyanna's body either.
Jon mentions in one of his chapters that Ned and Benjen had discussed repopulating the Gift, so they had spoken on friendly terms since Benjen joined the Watch.
+namewastaken360 that's business not personal
The way the men in Neds dream are described sounds an awful like Jaime's dream.
Except their helms were on and visors down, and Jaime didn't need to see their faces to know them. Ned was with them all too.
After a short exchange of words Rhaegar finally says "I left my wife (Elia) and children in your hands"
That makes Jaime breakdown just before the shades close in to attack him.
Had a brother he loved and a brother he hated according to the 3 eyed crow. Hate is pretty strong. Really like your theory on why Eddard might have hated Benjen. BTW, Old Nan says "all crows are liars". Possible that the 3-eyed crow shows false story at Tower of Joy in the show? The show totally confuses us book readers.
we don't think the weirwood net or whatever it's called even knows what happened there...there are no weirwoods nearby and none of the people who were there have ever been given to the weirwoods so anything the tree thinks it knows is second hand information based on rumors...but yes...crows are liars
The Order of the Green Hand , There's evidence that the 3 eyed raven can also see through believers in the old gods. In 1 of brans visions we see ned in the dungeons and then again at his execution. no weirwoods were present. Apparently he can see and hear through the Ravens, the weirwoods, and the eyes of the believers. imo, thoughts?
I dont understand why people use the three eyed crow and three eyed raven interchangeably. Crows and ravens are not the same thing, theyre related but different. There is no three eyed raven, its bloodraven, the greenseer, he even corrects bran when he asked if hes the three eyed crow, and bloodraven doesnt have 3 eyes he has a thousand and one. I believe shiera seastar (related to bloodraven) is the three eyed crow. Her third eye being bloodravens that bittersteel gave to her to win her affections. She used his eye in bloodmagic for his greenseer properties.
Nice "The Wire" Reference.
Thank you...we love the wire...any opportunity to show some wire love we're going to take it
What about Brian's green vision of the tower? I just found your channel. Do you only go by the books? If so it makes sense. I'm making my second run through the books audio now.
We are definitely a book channel
Awesome theory, but the part about Rhaegar, the public enemy number 1 for the Stark-Baratheon-Arryn team, hiding in Winterfell is a bit too much. And three Kingsguard staying with him in the North where none of them are accustomed to it is pushing it over the edge. There must be some other way to reconcile the other points you mentioned. Let's wait for WoW.
I never understood why Benjen came to that king's feast at all.
To be honest...neither do I
The Order of the Green Hand was t he picking up some criminals for the black?
I think because he needed to tell Ned that winter was truly coming
I've just read your response The Order of the Green Hand. I'm glad it has left other people bemused!
+Kut Klab, something like that!
There was time when sansa did cry. Remember when she was running away from kings landing she was running and crying at the same time. She even asked herself why she was crying when she felt like dancing.
Mance Rayder made a new version of the story and told Ygritte. Rhaegar's harp is in the Winterfell Crypts.
I have to admit the later half is very convincing
Wow, head explodes. It's not conceivable (if true) that Lyanna could've been in Dorne with blue winter roses in her hand.
You're wrong about Benjen and Ned never talking. Well, maybe. But, whenever Maester Luwin tells Ned that Jon wanted to join the Night's Watch, Need says "I'll speak to Benjen". Maybe there was emnity between them, but he does specifically say he's going to talk to Benjen
Benjen and Ned clearly weren't estranged by the fact that their plan to repopulate the gift, which is mentioned multiple times in ADwD
From Ned's chapters, you can tell he does not trust Varys at all...
You're telling me Ned did not trust the man who helped him find his sister who had been lost for a year... that doesn't seem like Ned... he started trusting Baelish after he helped him find the bastard baby(I may be wrong)
GRRM is an executive producer for the show and he's said he's happy with how the show is doing. One of the questions he asked Benioff and Weiss before he gave them permission to adapt his books to a tv show is who Jons mother was. They gave him the correct answer and Martin gave his OK to make the show: variety.com/2015/tv/news/game-of-thrones-ending-season-5-producers-interview-1201469516/
And they weren't the first ones to ask Martin to adapt his story, he's refused them all.
While The Order makes some very interesting points, I'm left wondering how true to Martins books the tv show will be. They may have decided to change some things to make the show something unique and keep the later seasons seperate from the books. GRRM has written an episode in each of the first four seasons but stopped that from season 5 onwards. So it may be true that he's only an executive producer in name.
First off, George is NOT happy with the show. I will find the articles which indicate his displeasure. In fact he's even gone so far as to call it licensed fan fiction, and to your point about them answering the question correctly and all of that, please see below.
I have a question for everyone who likes to use the "They answered the question right," as confirmation or evidence of R+L=J.
As has been pointed out, George asked them who Jon's mother is in order to determine how closely they read the books. At the point when he posed this question, RLJ was already a very popular theory on the internet. So my question for you would be, why would he pose a question whose answer can be found in as long as it takes to type it into google, in order to determine how closely they read the books? George says he's been aware of message boards and forums online since the late 90s. To me, it seems as though the common answer was wrong, so he posed the question in order to determine whether they were swayed by the commonly accepted online theory or if they read the books closely enough to know the correct answer. IF the commonly accepted theory was correct, and all it would take is google and some curiosity, than George's choice of using this question to gauge how closely they read the books, would be extremely poor.
Follow up question, why would Weiss label the answer they gave as "shocking," if their response was Lyanna, recalling the context here, which is that RLJ was already established in the fandom and available to anyone with access to the internet.
I was working under the assumption he was happy with the show, but browsing the special google machine I see he's been a bit whimsical in his comments about the show. That may be explained by the fact he's signed to a HBO contract and can't be too critical, but this article is interesting nonetheless: baltimorepostexaminer.com/george-martin-game-thrones-licensed-fan-fiction/2016/05/29
That's why I questioned how true to the books the series really is. We're missing multiple interesting storylines from the book in the show. I wonder why Martin was adamant about wanting Lady Stoneheart in the show, for example. Will she play a pivotal role in yet unwritten books?
Thank you for educating me and many others on the topic. Watching the show as lead me to read the books and I'm not regretting it one bit. I'm still playing catch-up but these theories make sure I read the books with multiple perspectives, which adds multiple layers. I'll continue to finish the rest of your videos in your playlist and I'll try to be online for your Q&A vid.
You folks tickle me... so very serious in your theorizing about ASOIAF. Still though, this is some of the most solid work that I have come upon, well done. :)
we decided if we were going to do something we both thought was a little ridiculous (making theory videos about a book) we had better do everything in our power to be right so we take a topic apart and make sure we're not missing a quote or a line that could be used to refute it before we put it in a video
Hey, I recognize your name lol I'm EarlyOnTheMorrow
What about the vision of the blue rose sprouting from the wall seen by Danny. and several other not so subtle clues and hints if N+A = J a lot of this fits, but quite a bit doesn't. The parallels of throwing oneself from the tower with Ashara and the stark mother from the songs is quite interesting though, but what would have sparked her suicide.
Great observation...we think a lot of the lie Ned made up is based off of that song, as well as the Dunk and Egg stories...the blue flower at the wall is where we think Dany is going to meet Aegon
Ned was said to have pulled down the Tower of Joy which I always thought was suspect because that sounds crazy. If L&R were in the North the whole time could they have been not in the crypts but at the Tumbledown Tower; the ancient watchtower in the wolf'swood that Bran, Hodor, and Reed children rest in the vault at? There are no nearby villages as to attract attention. It's real name was lost but Tumbledown is what Bran calls it. I could easily see Ned tearing that down because he'd have to see it often.
Queenscrown is a possibility...we think the tower she was in when Ned found her was the Broken Tower, where Bran caught Jaime and Cersei at the beginning of the story
I love your guys videos and I wanna ask. are we ever told what does Robert think happened to Lyanna? about her death I mean, like does he think she was killed?? just disappeared never to be seen??
Where is Jon born? In the Wolfs Den or in Starfall?
And would they baby-swap work if Aegon is born in Winterfell and Jon in Starfall? Ned would have to travel through the entire continent with Baby Aegon without even knowing if Ashara would even agree to swap the babys and faint her own death. To me it does seem more likely for Ned to take baby Aegon from the Tower of Joy to Starfall.
I also seem to recall Catelyn only remembering Ned return from the War with a baby. Not him leaving with one from Winterfell to retrive another.
I know it's been a time since this video was published but I would be really greatful to recieve further insight into this.
Benjen joining the Night's Watch makes sense: The Stark family provide one every generation.
House Stark was nearly extinct at that point, and it doesn't say anywhere that one Stark in each generation serves in the night's watch, so no, it really doesn't make sense that Benjen went to the wall immediately following Ned's return from the war...a year prior to that it might have made sense, when Ned still had an older brother, a sister and a father
I may be misremembering, I could swear I read it in one of the books but it's no nevermind.
Wow just as the killing of texas police officer J.D. Tippet is the key to the Kennedy assassination, benjen is the key to the truth of Rhaegar and Lyanna's tale , ive always felt his joining the watch after losing his father , brother and sister was a bit strange indeed, it leaves the stark line pretty bare just ned and robb , that he would choose this time to renounce any future claims on winterfell is really short sighted if him and Ned , for instance ned could of fell of a horse and died ,children die at young ages all the time in our story , benjen and ned were really risking alot by A. Benjen being allowed to join the watch or B. Ned sending him to join the watch, this struck me as completely wrong on first reading and makes less and less the more we learn of this world
could explain why his name is jon snow and not jon sand, but that might be just cos jon snow sounds way cooler lol