this guy WAS making sense, untill he mentioned Syria, I saw what Isis did to Iraqi men on the tigris, lining them up and executing them. and so when you say russia was wrong to have joined the conflict in Syria, then you lost me, the place is at peace now especially since we funded the proxy war in the first place.
fair point. John is powerfully persuasive in many respects but the western medias portrayal of the ukraine conflict does not at all seem to let the public make up its own mind. Why cant we watch "russia today" . Do we accept that prominent people who broadcast on RT for years, such as Larry King, were mere puppets of "evil putin"?
@@Feline-philosopher( in order to destroy a monster, one indeed runs the risk of becoming one.) People think disagreement is unpatriotic, but it's not, the best way to describe this slow moving train towards nuclear war, is like when pilot Wales beach themselves. These guys are so well read but they cannot offer balance, all they do is reinforce a orthodox view point which so far has never brought peace. . At some point you realize this is not a movie where there is a good guy and bad guy, there are just people dying and suffering.
@@ballerblocks ja you express it well, and it is a sobering moment in history. I guess many of us are marked by the optimism of the nineties, after 1991. We never thought things could change (something john gray expresses elequently). And yet these two learned men are maybe missing some aspects of the current global situation. India, brazil, south africa, and many other states, likely do not share the views these two gentlemenn take on US influence (as being predominantly benign?)
@@Feline-philosopher I don't know if you had the same experience. But in the late 80s I remember, the constant education about nuclear war, politics was based around a realist approach, and when the 90s arrived, I remember having the feeling that finally we the people would have a chance to think about a future, and all the promises it held. But alas that future has created a complacency of hegemony, which cannot be sustained in a globalised world. It almost feels like we are the new Soviet Union, the leader at the top is frail(just like Yeltsin), and the media protects him, the voice of the people is actively disregarded. All that is left is collapse. The similarity of the situation might be a stretch, but I have faith, that we may be saved from this fate, if more mature, less emotional and ideological people are in power.
John Anderson, it is such a shame that people like you aren't leading this country. Straight talking, thoughtful, strategic thinking and considerate of history. I yearn for this change. I hope you can influence our future politicians, or yourself to give a better leadership model for Australia. Thank you for this talk, it was really interesting and thoughtful.
Lived in Perth for a year, you got a very wonderful country and you australians are a fun and loving people. Our greatest fault is our love of liberty and prosperity creates tolerance for violent behavior and false sense of natural wealth we can afford to do green economy with carbon tax because we have prosperity in the moment.
James, if you believe in democracy be careful for what you wish for. John Anderson gave Victor Davis Hanson - a far right wing trump activist - a fortnightly platform to spread the lies of the Trump campaign. Australia does not need Trumpism and the likes of any politician (including Anderson) who pedals false propaganda in Australia.
He's Australian so he has a colonial paternalistic attitude that is heavily biased towards western ideology. He's good but he's not controversial enough for me.
As Ukrainian I can explain why may be yes or may be not it is difficult. Fundamentally it is up to ukrainian people to believe, accept or reject, join or not, decide or not who and where they should be or be for whom or be neutral or not. Often when some one very far from other one... powerful much it is no matter at all what to be, because as US can be what ever US want to be, but not neutral. In the case of small countries with the list to say, very powerful and/or aggressive and/or imperialistic dictatorial country as neighbor, it hard to be and/or to live normal life, when for centuries on, such imperialistic neighbor as a historical fact show us, biting from you how we say "shmat by shmat" that is piece by piece till.... you know what. One just need to glimpse seriously history of Russian revolution, Soviet Union, communist ideology, etc. to realize what Soviet Union/Russia was and is. Ideology, mentalitet, all russsian world veiw etc. etc. which constituted term "Russian World" and undercurrent of this concept that have name to it now "rushism", to hopefully realize that small countries around rushist entity is very vulnerable apparently, as example of Poland, Baltick states, Moldova, Georgia etc. etc. show us. Not to mention that neutrality must be supported by some one, because s we know well there in human history no real neutrality at all. Just look realistically and historically honest back to WW2... Well much can be said about it... Some one said of russian origins: "Globalist world of today is a competition and other coming to get what you have...". I think wise word in it nature to be taken deeply in.
@@aslampervez2294 Observing? Observing leadership you did not observe anything, and from where did you observe? Living is understanding. Observing is nothing. i ones observe fish in river. It lead me only to short time empty observation. Your statement about "was never a country" just show your ignorans and lack of any or at list historical education. So I, as Ukrainian who not only obeserve fish but eat it often out of the river, advise you to educate yourself before involved in observations and comments about Ukraine.
@@aslampervez2294 A ti sho bolnoy na golovu zovsim? Poz, kogda kogda. when when. learn history. I can teach you debil but you need pay for history lectures. Go and observ fish in river. better for your level of IQ.
Philosophy today has become poisoned by bad faith sophists. It’s an absolute anathema to the fundamental core of what philosophy is to have evolved this way. There aren’t many, at least in the anglopsphere, like John left.
Agreed. I study philosophy and have a ton of disagreements with John, but he is an honest intellectual who doesn’t pander. Read Enlightenment’s Wake. It will shed interesting light on current events.
@@JeansiByxan I’ve read John but not that one, so I shall. I did philosophy undergraduate too. I loved it and firmly believe that introducing some basic philosophical thinking ‘tools’ to classrooms around the ages of 12-14 could radically change our world for the better.
I've always enjoyed Gray talking about theories of history, and did here, but his views on current issues like Ukraine and Covid seem hopelessly middle of the road and unreflective . For example, he speaks of Putin wanting to protect "the Russian world", which he seems to regard as some kind of pre-rational political mysticism. It doesn't seem to occur to him that he speaks about defending the west in precisely the same way - the desire to defend the West being simply the natural thing to do. In relation to Covid, he presents the Covid vaccination campaign as undiluted "science", as though commerce and politics played no part in it. When talking about the barbarous practise of "former persons" under communism; it doesn't occur how close we came, or may still come, to making the so-called "unvacinated" community "former persons."
Have to agree here that Gray is very both siderish. While correct that Russia and China are highly rational, but not only have a different viewpoint also significantly different risk factor assessments. His Russian religious fixation likely has some validity, but completely fails to illuminate on Russias +4000 km border with China. He dangled that much of Russias natural resources are populated with non ethnic Russians. Gray is not alone in ignoring the influence and risk that China poses to Russia. Those 400 ICBM silos capable of 4000 hypersonic warhead delivery perhaps a few minutes from impact across entirety of Russia. Russia may very well need to conjure everything mythological strength and motivation in the very near future. Grays fear that US conservatives might be isolationist is interesting but fails to account for the incredible issues that the Leftist government has created. It's a prioritization Overall a great discussion for me to hear someone so learned and astute in the middle.
Also to my mind he did not make the link between lockdown and vaccine zealoutry and his other ideas about science as 'faith'. Perhaps he is scared. I mean incapacitated by his own fear of personal health rather than political fear.
I feel as if he has completely disregarded the individual constituencies of states. What do the people of the U.S., Austria, and Hungary want? That is more important than what the political elite want.
I think you have covered this talk really well. Thank you for crystalizing the apparent flaws in John Grey's perspective so well and the intervening ten months has born them out very well.
If referring to Russian doctrine on nuclear weapons, it actually says nuclear weapons would be used, if their nuclear capabilities are attacked/get launch warning. It is NOT to saying that it allows using nuclear just a preemptive strike on occasion. Whether they stick to doctrine or no is separate question, but if one is referring to doctrine, then do it right.
@@dmo7815 June 2020 doctrine does not say that. Do you have source? per 2020 threatening of nuclear is a a go, but still its about Russia critical infrastructure, launch facilities etc getting attacked.
Glad to see that someone knows the facts. Personally I found that interview mostly detached from the realities of the world. An arrogant, "then let them eat cake" perspective which I find common to the UK.
Its good to hear views from all sides, but Prof. Gray was just voicing average opinions about topics he seemed to have only read about in the general media, I didn't feel any insights were given
I love his books and I feel that that's his best. Perhaps John felt this audience would be more interested in works like False Dawn, more explicitly related to economics
Interesting to reflect that as much as Merkel was lauded as a great politician of her generation, she is directly responsible for the two worst European geopolitical moves in recent history. Those being on immigration (which led directly to Brexit imo) and reliance on Russian energy. Could argue she was too EU focused perhaps, in which case, the ramifications of those choices have an added bitter irony.
She was a completely irresponsible, shallow, and short-sighted maniac and so , unsurprisingly, canonised by the liberal left. Other noteworthy crimes: 1. Her role in the euro crisis: pauperising Greece to bail out corrupt German bankers 2. Pandering to the “green” lobby to shut down the most environmentally sound source of energy (nuclear) and replace it with coal
@Josh man not sure that can be entirely put on her can it? My understanding is that for reasons of history, Germany has been pretty unenthusiastic about building their military capabilities....like for 70 something years or so....
She got it massively wrong with mass immigration taking huge amounts of people diametrically opposite in culture, religion and world views and thinking they would take one look at the lovely advanced Germany and all those centuries of culture would melt away in awe and admiration. The ensuing resentment on both sides, largely as to how much and how long to teach, train and then employ with many being semi literate and unskilled even in their country of origin or having skills superseded . As for Östpolitik she was not the only one thinking economic and favourable trade inclusion would gradually liberalise Russia. Many in EU thought the same and had power transferred from Putin to a moderate, who knows. The same was done for China with many many favourable deals, developing country status etc. People forget how much the west, but specifically USA did for USSR and China in WW2 with supplies and helping China drive the Japanese out.
I just get the feeling Prof. Gray are falling behind a lot on his knowledge. I don't know if this is due to his high levels of education and assumption that he is right without doing proper analysis and research on these topics. Or that he have fallen victim to the degradation of information passed down by legacy information platforms. Its hard to listen when someone speaks with his authority but misses the mark on multiple occasions on rather pressing topics. I was waiting for John to challenge the talking points and off point takes, but the interjection never came sadly.
EXACTLY. This tree hugging guest loves the sound of his own voice and did not offer an original thought, just retrospectives, guesses and regurgitation from the left wing media he consumes, all of which is nothing new. His denigration of Trump who left the United States in the best shape in decades and his relative admiration for Biden as having done a "reasonable" job with Ukraine is proof positive that he has no understanding of Americans and America today. God, he is insufferably arrogant as he prattles on as if he is holding court. And John was like a puppy and now seems to be anti-Trump. Had to turn it off midway and find a stomach distress bag.
John Gray seems to ignore the war in Ukraine wouldn't have been a disaster if the US hadn't forced European partners if it ( US) wasn't adamant to non- negotiations
Thanks John , Please look into the recent UN and WEF , World economic forum , recent joint agreement for the Acceleration and implementation of the Agenda 2030 . People don't understand how precious freedom is ( untill it slowly taken away or given away ) .
This is of primary purpose today, especially in Australia where our human rights were destoyed very quickly, and agenda 21 exceeded expectations. And I saw Morrison's smug, beaming face as Schwab personally praised him for using covid to advance their aims. It is to be remembered both John and Morrison were / are part of the coalition, not that the opposition opposed any erosion of the human rights of Australians, so we are left without a viable democratic solution, and may as well be in a totalitarian regime.
I was just about to mention this. The undercurrents of the "public/private partnership" and that involvement in the trade war with China, the eruption of Covid as a bioweapon, and now Russia making moves on Eastern Europe as supply chains get destroyed. This was predicted. Yet not mentioned here at all?
People are beginning to understand how precious freedom is - we had our lives turned upside down through harsh Covid controls. And people are starting to understand how the UN/WEF agenda - "you will own nothing and be happy" - will take away all the wealth everyday people and families have managed to eke out the last 70 years - young people are already realizing they will never own a home. Democracy is inconvenient to this WEF new world order and I encourage anyone and everyone to use our envied preferential voting system wisely to show your disapproval and oust the Morrison government.
The fact that we do not share Putin's values is key. From Ghenghis Khan to Stalin and Mao, autocratic rulers will destroy entire cities and eradicate populations in order to achieve political ambition. The greatest failure of Western Liberal democracy has been to assume that globalisation of trade will harmonise political ideology. Unfashionable though it may be, military power is the essential underpinning of political power, and Europe has lost sight of that fact. The point about ignorance of history and preference for studying our own oppressions is real insight. Altogether an excellent presentation. Thanks for your efforts.
Because The rest of the world develop their economies The western power cannot dominate the rest of the world anymore Western power need to respect other race n country The rest of the world do not share the value of the Western power
@@wingkeungkong415 I could argue that the Japanese were the aggressors in WWII, but I agree that it was essentially a power struggle, and civilian populations were considered expendable on the path to victory.
I respect all the conversations and I acknowledge the people in them are highly intelligent, therefore even when I disagree I listen. However, I have fundamentally different views on China and what is happening in Ukraine, from what I consider to be good research and knowledge of the history of the Ukraine and China, and a peek into China from my wife who is Chinese, born in 1966 so has seen the worst of China and also the rise and rise of China. She was in China in 1989 and has a far more nuanced view of events such as Tiananmen square. Time will tell who is right, in particular about Ukraine, probably a long time. John, I am reminded of Doug Anthony sending off young men to die in Vietnam when I listen to you. There is still debate on whether he was right or wrong. I fear the consequences of getting it wrong this time are far more severe. ...... and this is only a comment, so I concentrated on making points rather than explaining
As enlightening as it is to listen to johns perspective, and as a left leaning individual i truly do respect his tragic realism, but i couldnt help but notice what wasnt mentioned in this interview. Is it not obvious that western media is not presenting putins actions in a reasonably nuanced fashion? It has been noted (perhaps by chomsky on his recent interview on yt concerning swedens joining NATO), that putins actions are uniformly characterised by western media spokesmen as "an unprovoked attack on a democratically run sovereign state..." Would the US take no action against mexico if it allowed chinese armaments and weaponry to be deployed close to the state of texas? How can one belittle "postmodern" ideology in the form of "woke" leftism on the one hand, whilst remaining silent or omitting to mention the mediocre functioning of democracys major social institution (the press) for reporting objective facts on the international scene? Dont i as a western citizen get to judge for myself if i want to watch RT to get the russian perspective or not? Did the western press behave entirely objectively (and i might add truthfully) prior to the invasion of iraq twenty years ago?
@@Feline-philosopher Yes , I agree. The Cuban Missle Crisis in the 60 s and J Kennady , yet Putin said Ukraine will be a buffer from NATO. And Western Corporate Media is on the Top 10 list of worse enemies ,don’t believe their lies . What has Joe got right ? Open migration, more taxes, oil dependence, devaluation of the $ by free free free and shut it down , debogled withdrawal from Afghanistan , now free speech regulation ,left $80. Billion of weapons in Afghanistan because of a poorly planned withdrawal,now $40 Billion for corrupt Ukraine,
Thank you, thank you, thank you for posting your comment. The US/West's portrayal of Russia and China through dominance of MSM/tech censorship, and the level of anti-China/Russia has reached absurdity. Reasoned debate on anything outside the narrative in all western countries is impossible atm - an extension of Covid. The level of state control over what we see and hear today is exactly what the west ridiculed in Soviet days. The US has been the dominant world power for decades - the world is where it is today because of US "free market imperialism" - designed to retain hegemony by keeping other countries down economically. Of course there was always the ruthless US military to destroy any noncompliant countries/leaders. We follow the US to our own country's demise now. The US is turning to Asia and manufacturing consent for war with China through their MSM propaganda. US will try to drag Australia into economic warfare first with sanctions as they are doing to Europe v Russia. Then possibly naval blockades of trade routes - Australia will destroy its economy and future for decades as we are so reliant on China/Asian trade. If war breaks out between US/China, does Australia blindly send our youth to be butchered or if it goes nuclear we will all probably die. Always question the narrative being forced down our throats or we are doomed.
I’m flabbergasted at the lack of ‘rationality’ displayed in this discussion. Prof Gray lost me the moment he declared such support for NATO. Any objective/philosophical undergraduate in the west today would never describe NATO as a defensive force. The prejudicial assessment of current Russian society is completely without nuance and tolerance. There is no reference to the economic achievements of the Russian government following the departure of Yeltsin or indeed the destructive role of America immediately after the dissolution of the USSR. John Mearsheimer may not be a philosopher but he has my vote. If Prof Gray is regarded as an eminent philosopher then I really fear for the future of this planet. Like Mearsheimer I hope for the transformation to a multipolar world and the end of US hegemony. Therein will lie the possibility of a return to diplomacy and negotiation. I would venture to suggest that rather than pursuing an immature notion of Putin the villain this philosopher would benefit from widening his knowledge of realistic geopolitics.
A3gree with you 100% it is as if he is unaware of Professor Mearsheimer's powerful argument that NATO has fomented this crisis. The problem with most academic is they are two steps removed from practical reality.
@@algoa456 YEAH ! I'm sure the kid whoose dad was shot dead for nothing by some Russian orc, at one of their so called check points would agree ! The late Solzenitsyn was obviously a Western Stooge, and the late Stalin had Russia's interests at heart apart from the odd million he killed.
Always a pleasure to read or hear John Gray. In this case, the experience of seeing a highly intelligent and articulate man base his analysis on an uncritical acceptance of the prevailing narrative promoted by a media class which has proven itself profoundly unreliable over the last six years was as instructive as it was disappointing.
It is such a comfort to listen to well dressed Gentlemen, discuss contemporary concepts like Communism, as the economy collapses around them..... The Smartly Attired Swells of London discussing the brazen desires of the St Perersburg Crowd, to interfere with the exploitation of India for fun and profit, kept the Press Gangs of Liverpool working overtime to round up bodies in 1853 to deliver to the gates of Sevastopol. The similarities to this conversation may have been an inspiration to the Widows of the Light Brigade, in their mourning? The families of the Mercs who seem to find themselves in Russian Custody, would now enjoy the fact that some things never seem to change, as the efforts to support exploitation of Russian Assets continues today. What brave souls linger within the Underground Facilities of the Azovstal Underground POW Camp? How shall Conservative Values contribute to the betterment of social stability? Will the Project for the New American Century succeed to restore sanity? Viva La Stability!
Thanks wataboutya ! I can also say: the world future is so rich in possible outcomes,so in the end a genius can be wrong and an idiot become right. Of course listen to experts,but not too much.
This man literally has no idea what he is talking about. Stuck in his ivory tower, he is completely out of touch and buying into his friends propaganda. His world view is completely warped from reality because of his elitism.
I have great respect for John Gray's philosophical ideas but I completely reject his understanding of the Russia-Ukraine war, he's opinion no different than what's been parroted on BBC and the rest of the legacy media
Inflation is more important to most people in the US than Ukraine. Our politics is fractured beyond belief. We have a whole generation hammered by 2008, the Pandemic, and now the economic effects of Ukraine. Meanwhile billions of dollars are flowing with little debate to a place that, contra Ukrainian propaganda, has little bearing on American, as opposed to Polish or Baltic, security. Ironically, Ukraine actually harms Australian security by diverting our attention from China. And Biden by throwing Western weight around is actually accelerating the change in the current world order. *** Gray just pointed out how things could get worse, then said it couldn't get worse. If Moscow collapses, what's to prevent Russians from selling nuclear weapons to whoever has the cash for whatever the reason. Is that better than Putin?
Mr. Gray. The US citizenry isn't afraid of nuclear power plants to the extent you let on here. The US needs the fed government to subsidize nuclear power plant projects and help to clean up the regulatory problems that keep it so expensive.
Agree. But the greens and leftists ARE opposed to them. Not sure why. Probably be sure for them the only good answer is fewer poorer and less independent people.
@@jo9732 Most progressives ,to include Greens, are only interested in talking points fed to them by those who actually know better but spout virtue signalling platitudes designed to get an emotional reaction.
He is calling Putin a Terrorising individual, but seems to completely ignore that the USA fuelled terrorism in Afg and still maintains connections with them. Prof Gray seems to make a lot of sense, but I find it difficult to follow as he still sticks to the idea that one side is more "moral" than the other.
This Professor lost me when he said "Biden Handled Ukraine well'. Seriously, there would be no war if Biden hadn't shown military weakness in Afghanistan. Funny how Putin didn't invade when Trump was president.
A nonsensical response sorry to be frank. Biden was not President when the US waged war on Afghanistan. You too need to study history my friend. Why don't you blame the Pandemic on Biden too?
Agree. Let's be frank. This war was 100% avoidable. But as with all conflicts, avoiding them requires concession. Ideally from both sides. In this case, Biden almost willed this outcome. Putin, while certainly no 'good guy' by anyone's definition, has been unequivocal about where his loyalty and ambitions anchor. Like those behind MAGA, he prioritises the interests of Russia ahead of other nations, cultures and regions. He was also decisive and unambiguous about what a NATO bordering ally would mean. Since 2014, he articulated numerous times this concern, and requirement. Yet, the West, errr..we, ignored him. Entirely. Why. Why NOT engage to resolve this dispute or address his concerns, starting by acknowledging they exist. This is how a civilised and effective diplomacy works. Unless that was never the aim. Now we have a literal egomaniacal clown running around to nations and NGOs orchestrating phone-a-thons. Ha. It is comical. This corrupt imposter, Zelensky, a hero? No. Nor is Putin. Nor are 'we' of the West to be lauded. All that has happened could well have been avoided. And still could be. Yet there is no open forum, no invitation to talks. No attempt to end this war via diplomacy. This should tell you everything you need to know. The obvious is that this is intentional. And willed - just as Biden foretold in January in yet another of his incoherent, emphatic word-jumbled teleprompted speeches. God help us.
@@tdagkhan The war is already on going, for it to stop Russia has to win the war. Russia with abandon fuel, food n manpower should last longer than Ukraine. Also NATO countries are hurting with inflation n recession n constant aids to Ukraine, they should bleed for being the expansionists that provoke this war.
Trump planned to leave Afghanistan in the same time frame. You lost him because you can't abide to hear even the faintest praise for the Biden government or the slightest criticism of the Trump shambles
18:15. I clicked off at this coincidental point. “That’s enough.” John Gray describes a world I would read about, if I were to read the New York Times regularly, a view of the world I recognize, but am convinced is about to change. I’ve walked Manhattan on enough cloudy days to know that “All the News That’s Fit to Print” ignores the realities above the first floor, and has done so for over 20 years. To use the propitious 1815 lay of the Land…. The brutality of Russia’s failed invasion of Ukraine rearranged the deck chairs on the ship taking brutes to St. Helena. The brutes will still get there, no matter how many times the chairs are moved around.
How can anyone take these talking-heads seriously, when one of them said that he supported Thatcher's policy. I would like him to state which Thatchers policy benefited the ordinary working-class today? One can also ask, philosophically, in which area that the US has shown moral leadership currently which can be an example for the world.
I seriously question the timing of all of this, had the Ukraine been invaded in 2020, when our government was locking us in our houses, or 2021 when they were mandating jabs, I doubt it would have been widely reported. Inflation had been happening months before this event, and the Ukraine makes a useful culprit for politicians. I think it is vital we fight to restore our own human rights back from our government before we interfer in other countries.
Valerie that point is washed out by the fact that all NATO members have sought membership because they are afraid of Putin. In fact, they are far more afraid fo Putin than so many in the US. Why? Look at the present. I highly suggest that people do some research into Russian geopolitics instead fo just repeating a prepared phrase that has little to do with the bigger picture. Reading on topics such as neo-Eurasia, Russian infiltration of the far right in Europe, the Russian World, the Third Rome, Aleksandr Dugin, will quickly show you why Putin needs to be stopped in Ukraine. People like Tucker Carlson are doing a tremendous disservice to the US. It is not only the left that is destroying 'western civilization', but many on the right are now doing serious damage as well. As for the repeated nuclear threats coming from Russian heads of state and Russian TV -nobody on God's earth should speak like that. Take it seriously.
It is an irony to me that Trump himself has said he would send "MiGs and more" to Ukraine, that a stronger response is needed, and that he would tell Putin that the US has bigger nuclear weapons. He has said that Putin now is not the same person he knew when he was in office. It is striking to me that those who would like to see him reelected are the same who take the stance you indicate above, which he would not think relevant to the present. I am truly concerned about this and believe that we are all on the side of preserving the West that we love.
No such treaties existed or could even exist. What really existed a promise of Ukrainian territorial integrity in exchange for the nukes and the USSR seat in the UN Security Council. It was violated by Russia in 2014 by annexation of Crimea and invasion into Donbas and Lughansk.
Interesting conversation. Didn't agree with some of Gray's points and he seems very 'establishment' in his thinking about such things as 'conspiracy theories' on covid vaccines (shown now to be less 'safe and effective') and the nature of Ukraine and Zelensky (coke-addled and corrupt).
"as bad or worse than Trump" He lost me right there. Trump has his faults but unlike biden, Trump is at least pro American and pro Western Civilization.
Hmm... the guy just contradicted himself. He said the west has short attention span, then said Putin wants to escalate the war... The lesson from Vietnam, Afghan is clear, Putin should just wait it out until the west gets bored and moves on.
As enlightening as it is to listen to johns perspective, and as a left leaning individual i truly do respect his tragic realism, but i couldnt help but notice what wasnt mentioned in this interview. Is it not obvious that western media is not presenting putins actions in a reasonably nuanced fashion? It has been noted (perhaps by chomsky on his recent interview on yt concerning swedens joining NATO), that putins actions are uniformly characterised by western media spokesmen as "an unprovoked attack on a democratically run sovereign state..." Would the US take no action against mexico if it allowed chinese armaments and weaponry to be deployed close to the state of texas? How can one belittle "postmodern" ideology in the form of "woke" leftism on the one hand, whilst remaining silent or omitting to mention the mediocre functioning of democracys major social institution (the press) for reporting objective facts on the international scene? Dont i as a western citizen get to judge for myself if i want to watch RT to get the russian perspective or not? Did the western press behave entirely objectively (and i might add truthfully) prior to the invasion of iraq twenty years ago?
That had nothing to do with Ukraine but Nato. The fact that Russian propaganda is sp successful in making people believe Ukraine is the aggressor is, frankly, astounding. Perhaps the most successful propaganda campaign of all time.
Well said. But 'the media' are not called FAKE for nothing. Western media have a lot to answer for going all the way back to the shocking reporting (or deliberate misreporting) on the two world wars.
I can’t believe John has held a position in prestigious Yale university while he can’t even understand that all super military powers need their buffer zones. USA would never tolerate Russia making military alliance with Mexico while for years NATO weapons were just mètres away from Russia border. Ukraine should have stay neutral n do prosperous businesses with both sides. Joining the color revolution sponsored by the West was clearly a deadly mistake. Tragic really.
Agree 100%. And Putin asked to join nato. Imagine if we had done that and began grading with them? Per chance this whole thing would not have happened. Who knows.
I wish the time would come when Westerners will realize that there are other civilizations beside them. The whole business of "my way or the highway" needs to go away.
Professor has some good insights from a European point of view. He is right about people not wanting to learn from history, but I think much of that is educational ignorance not intentional necessarily. Regarding the US, I think he misses some things. Republicans are not far right in a Euro sense. Traditional American Republicanism was not isolationist, but had principled involvement. The Democrats under FDR projected that and won, but later Neo-Cons took over the party brought in the old War Party Democratic views. Trump tried to get them out and dull possible wars. He stopped many conflicts, but did not get credit for it. Biden has not made good decisions on anything. He is ill. The Democrats are guilty of senior abuse. Even if you disagree with some of his views, he has some nugget insights, which is about education. John is very good at allowing this conversation. Triangulate from all sources to real knowledge. American Fundamentalism has had a number of stages. The end of the world is traditional Protestant Christian. Augustine also held this view. To keep it simple, his view of how it sorted out was different along the way, but he believed in an end.
The end of the world is central to Christianity- but the end of the world or history within Christianity is a supernatural event akin to incarnation or resurrection. It isn't something located within human history but marks the end of cosmic history as such. This is what separates Christian eschatology from the secular belief in progress.
We are so enamoured by rationalism that we are totally blind to the fact that we are only partially rational beings, and some of us are more so than others, and we certainly do not all share the same values. We have a far too benign view of human nature that has become a destructive delusion. John Gray is exactly the antidote we need to our comfortable complacency. I wish his writings would become as popular as 50 Shades of Grey!
A fascinating discussion. On a minor topic, the contrasting prevalence of spiritualism after the first and second world wars, my theory is that astounding new technologies and scientific theories can seem, as has been said, like magic, or can seem to indicate mystical “facts” about the world. The Greeks may have used technically advanced mathematics, geometry and automation to promote religious devotion by impressing the gullible. In the early twentieth century it was x-rays, relativity, quantum physics that made some people think they could pin down “spiritual” phenomena. Today, as the story about the computer simulation of the man’s grandfather suggests, we have another wave of astounding technology that invites mystical fantasies. In the vein, I hope, of John Gray, I see human beings as partly rational and partly irrational. We must always remember that the struggle for truth, common sense and decency doesn’t always progress, and will never end.
Just a footnote here: The existentialists, but really starting with Schopenhauer, as Popper noted, have shown, with the phenomenological reduction, that the primacy of human action is the irrational; that the rational is derivative. Hume also acknowledged this, as Plantinga has more recently noted.
Well, I do not have his text on Mill, but I do have John's book, Feline Philosophy - Cats and the Meaning of Life. An excellent read if you have the time.
PR China 🇨🇳 is still liberalising economically compared to Western nations. People worry too much about the Chinese economy compared to our own Western economies. China's problem🇨🇳 is their anti-Christian stance not wealth.
China is a mixed bag.....but it's much more cunning than Russia...Russia is and always was brute force with low wisdom. It was like that ever since it's conception.
Excellent interview as usual, however for the record Tucker has only asked Joe & Kamala to be as concerned about American borders as much as they are concerned about Ukraine's borders. Fox Net judging by the amount of American Generals they have on are very anti-putin - Thanx John
Nope, I remember how at the start of the invasion Tucker repeatedly threw shade at Ukraine issue, saying that Americans shouldn’t suffer for “a corrupt East-European country”. Chilling, how short-sighted those influencers are in not understanding they then would surrender the Western Europe to Putin as well, and thus their senior partner China.
@@wingkeungkong415 mind your own Chinese business. If you do and don’t act rabidly, you won’t get bruised by an underdog like Russia. But of course you can’t, you’re a thousands year old empire, like it gives you any right to subjugate people around you.
@@watershed8685 in this world There is only 3 great power Which is truly independent They are America Russia n China And think that the conflicts between American and Russia woud not be Chinese concern You have zero political sense If Russia go down I bet you know which country is American next target That is also why North Korea n Iran are supporting Russia
He's talked about that at length in other interviews, and he is highly critical of US intervention in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya. But it is a mistake to say "what NATO did" - some of the countries that participated in these campaigns were NATO members, but NATO itself (as an organisation) played no role in the decision to invade these countries. That's a crucial distinction.
Great conversation, but the question of what if Americans hadn’t intervened is not fair. The deal after ww2 was that we didn’t seek power in Europe, and let US be the big brother. I think many Europeans would prefer for us to look after ourselves. The trade of sending our most driven and skilled to work and live in US in exchange for military protection is that great
No one is forcing people to emigrate to the US lol. Many Americans wish we didn’t spend trillions to defend Europe, and used that money for our crumbling roads and schools, so you may get your wish for an independent Europe
9:06 - has Big Business been gullible about China, or has it been amoral, greedy, and focused on short-term gain? By the way, thank you, John, for this upload. 😃
Putin, Chinese demographic decline, malignant Islam and Euro Socialist wokism are existential threats to western values. Trump victory and retreat is a free pass for Chinese misbehaviour in SE Asia
There is large pro-ukrainian population in Crimea and Eastern part of Donbass which controlled by terrorists from so-called "people's republics" which treated worse in 2014-2022.
Why then this very population fights Russian invasion back now? Kiev and Kharkov are predominantly Russian cities, yet Putin failed to take them. In terms of ethnicity of the population it is as if the US tried to free Ontario and Manitoba from Quebec oppression...
There are mixed reports on her. Supposedly, she has ties to Russia and will pull back on NATO involvement, but she has said that she would continue support for Ukraine. So, there are mixed reports - probably to support Macron’s election effort.
A great listen. Lazy and rigorous chat. Not really a conversation but that is what is good about john. He lets his guests speak ... if they can. Good to hear an australian accent among the plethora of voices on all these issues. This is the west as it actually is. This conversation could never take place in china or russia or anywhere else. Not on this truthful and intellectual level. Perhaps this is why liberal democracy will outlast these coming times and troubles.
John, why did you have this man on? He is so pro US, and cannot see the part the US played and is still trying to play in Ukraine. He cannot look at Russia, and Putin, objectively. Putin has done a brilliant job of bringing Russia back after the US brought it to its knees in the 1990s. I really don’t like this guest.
This is the first time I came across this professor. Incredible! He is thinking and talking about Atlanticism, NATO, Russia, America's role in the world etc., within the context and parameters of "the good old days of the Cold War", in other words he seems to be still living in the past.
John Anderson says "We (the West) have got to be realistic about Russia ..." So far the West has been anything but realistic. Its shock and awe sanction has specularly failed. Europe cannot mount even a fake oil embargo, a plan to launder Russian oil via maritime loop holes and Greek tankers allowed to carry. Europe capitulated to Ruble for gas without any credible plan to phase out this gas by winter. War on the ground has gone badly for Ukraine with unconditional surrender of Azov troops in Azovstal. Europe is entering deindustrialisation by RePowerEU energy phased reduction while shift to renewables under increasing stagflation ... Get real about the contribution of Russia's commodities to the West's standard of living and the lack of any full substitute to it.
Timestamps if you want them: 00:12 💥 John Gray highlights the limitations of Western deterrence due to the fear of nuclear escalation. 02:07 🎓 Gray criticizes modern philosophy for becoming an "intra-academic" discipline, lacking real-world applicability. 04:41 🌍 Gray explains his support for Thatcher due to her militant anti-communism and understanding of its consequences. 07:45 🇨🇳 Gray argues that China never intended to liberalize, debunking a common Western misconception. 09:21 🤝 Gray contests the idea that trade with totalitarian powers leads to them becoming less totalitarian. 10:29 🌐 China doesn't prioritize world opinion; repression in the country serves as a lesson for its people. 11:28 🧠 The West has a short attention span, failing to remember the history of communist repression and deception. 13:50 🤝 NATO is emerging as a successful Western institution, but political divisions in Europe and the U.S. could undermine it. 16:48 🇺🇸 Uncertainty in U.S. politics could affect the country's global commitments, especially if the next president leans towards isolationism or scaling down its role. 19:06 🌍 The Ukraine war marks a breakdown in the global nuclear settlement, posing risks like dampened interest in civilian nuclear energy and potential nuclear proliferation. 21:11 🌍 Putin's approach to risk differs from the Western perspective, driven by a semi-mystical concept of protecting the "Russian world," which goes beyond the current borders of Russia. 22:22 💥 Putin is willing to break norms, such as battlefield nuclear weapons, to achieve his goals, which poses challenges to traditional notions of deterrence. 25:13 ⏳ There are questions about the sustainability of a prolonged war for Putin due to logistical problems and human resource drain. 27:42 🌐 The Russian Federation may be more fragile than it appears, being a "corroded empire" rather than a unified nation state. 30:01 ⚖️ A regime change in Russia could result in the state collapsing, leading to unpredictable outcomes similar to previous cases like Iraq and Libya. 31:10 ⛪ The Russian Orthodox Church plays a significant role in Putin's regime, even taking on functions similar to those once held by the KGB. 32:34 🌍 The invasion of Ukraine is justified in Russia on a theological basis, emphasizing the importance of Russian civilization and orthodoxy. 35:06 🇺🇸 Europe's role in the Ukraine crisis is questionable without U.S. support, highlighting Europe's military and logistical limitations. 37:28 🇩🇪 Germany has not committed to becoming a significant military spender, partly due to its energy dependency on Russia. 39:03 🇷🇺 Putin is prepared to weather the economic sanctions, believing their impact on Russian society to be sustainable. 41:27 🌍 The speaker expresses strong concerns about Russian propaganda in Ukraine, emphasizing that it should not be allowed to happen, as it would lead to the erasure of Ukraine's national culture. 42:40 🤝 Discusses the reliance of European countries on American engagement, questioning if America can balance military conflicts and ramping up defense structures at the same time. 44:19 🔄 Raises questions about the current ideological landscape, wondering if the resurgence of absolutism and trust in science contradicts the post-modernist narrative that Western society had previously embraced. 46:16 🧠 Mentions the rise of conspiracy theories and mass panics, despite scientific progress, challengingoptimistic views about the rationalization of society. 50:35 📚 Discusses the tendency to neglect history, emphasizing that historical lessons often bring a sobering perspective contrary to optimistic or utopian views. 51:45 🤔 One reason for the stalwart attitudes in countries like Ukraine and Poland is their vivid historical memory of invasions and tragedies. 52:54 📖 Western thinkers often ignore disillusioning parts of history, preferring to focus on areas of oppression that they can critique to feel virtuous. 55:03 📜 The concept of "former persons" in the 1918 Soviet constitution demonstrates the extreme deprivation of civic rights, illustrating the harsh realities of Soviet rule. 59:56 ⏳ Gains in democracy and rights are not permanent; evils like totalitarian regimes can reemerge, as seen in Putinism and in China's shift back to totalitarianism. 01:01:48 🇨🇳 A misunderstanding about China's political structure led to the false belief that trading and technological collaboration would liberalize the country. 01:02:17 🇨🇳 In China, key institutions and the economy are tightly controlled by the government, diminishing the possibility of a revolution from within, such as from the army. 01:03:56 ✝️ Modern secular movements, often critical of traditional Christianity, unknowingly express religious themes, particularly the idea of conquering mortality. 01:05:37 🧠 The concept of "Singularity," popularized by figures like Ray Kurzweil, posits that technology will advance to the point where human minds can be uploaded, offering a form of immortality. 01:09:08 🤖 Transhumanism suggests that humans could become "gods" through advancements in AI, but the actual implementation would likely be more dystopian, involving warring factions each with their own vision of post-humanity. 01:11:06 ⚖️ The conversation moves to the idea that if everyone becomes a "god" through technology, it leads to a power struggle due to lack of common rules, unlike the frameworks that govern human society today. 01:11:48 🧠 The West has had a simplistic view of human reason and rationality, extending even to the theory of nuclear deterrence. 01:12:18 ☮️ Nuclear deterrence has been effective since 1945, but questions arise whether it's due to wisdom or luck. 01:12:46 🌍 Both the West and the Soviets worked to limit nuclear proliferation, but this equilibrium may be destabilized by the situation in Ukraine. 01:13:26 🇺🇦 If Putin gains little from his actions in Ukraine, the temptation may be to escalate the conflict. 01:13:54 💥 Official nuclear doctrine allows for the use of battlefield nuclear weapons in certain circumstances, which would drastically change the global landscape.
While wrong, it's not true that non-religious woo comes from religious precedents. Rather, they both come from error, independently. They are the natural result of being an evolved pattern-matching biological being.
Until LePen or her successor is elected to the Presidency, France can never be healed. The healing and rehabilitation of France passes through Le Front National. There is no way around it.
I lost interest in this conversation as soon as the interviewee said ""as bad or worse than Trump"". President Trump was the best President since President Reagan. Sure Present Bush (senior) was very good. Yet, President Trump acted in the interest of the people; not merely the people of the USA, but also of the people who seek liberty throughout the World. I have zero tolerance for any commenter who cannot recognize that self-evident truth. Failing to recognize that truth is a sure sign of support for the Fabian socialist agenda. Regards, Geoff. Reeks
If the warmongers in USA are not involved, Ukraine can keep itself as neutral. There would be no war and no one would have been killed. If you don't believe, ask Professor John Mearsheimer.
Interesting to hear is views on Thatcherism - he left his 'moderate upbringing' in (South Shields) no doubt by then, (Happens to my birthplace also) but I experienced first hand the effects of Thatcher's policies up there in moderateland!
It is bewildering to me that John interviews many people seemingly in order to pontificate about the future and how this or that will impact our future. Or how will this translate? As a type of practicing Christian, John like us all is well able to KNOW how things will pan out. Now whether that is "This is what you will do to yourselves' or "I God, will make this happen' , is of no matter, but the future is well predicted and has been for 2,000 years. And would it not be truer if the interview took the way of "How do you see things fitting in with what has been told to us will happen?" John Gray seems to be a little unsure of his support for Margaret Thatcher and rightly so, as who to my observation only accelerated the decline of Britain to today's third world status..
17:30-I write from the US. Putin is Europe’s problem, we can help but we have to deal with China and the regional powers there, Japan, SKorea, Australia, need our presence much more than the much bigger and stronger Europeans in NATO. Europe needs to grow up.
The biggest worry to the west especially the UK and US is far left wokeness. And open borders. We're heading to something that will resemble communism in decades to come.
While I agree Putin has escalation dominance over Ukraine...He does not have that in Germany Nor do the Chinese have escalation dominance outside the first island chain. Great discussion. Very rare for me to hear a foreigner who truly understands Americans. Whether it's Orban like or not. American nationalism is coming
John Gray just confirms the impressions I've gained with all my interactions with philosophers: totally unworldly in that they haven't studied history in toto and can't by the nature of their training in ways of thinking come to any understanding of the world in which they live.
Much respect for both gentlemen and as well much appreciation for this conversation. However, on the topic of the corona vaccines and mass vaccination in relation to (so-called) conspiracy theories, I am sincerely dissapointed John Gray (in this video) is not expressing more nuance and critical thinking to the layered complexity of this phenomenon.
Too politically correct to be accurate. Clueless on Ukraine. Watch The Duran channel on Yt with its two associated channels. Graham Phillipps channel on Yt.
this guy WAS making sense, untill he mentioned Syria, I saw what Isis did to Iraqi men on the tigris, lining them up and executing them. and so when you say russia was wrong to have joined the conflict in Syria,
then you lost me, the place is at peace now especially since we funded the proxy war in the first place.
fair point. John is powerfully persuasive in many respects but the western medias portrayal of the ukraine conflict does not at all seem to let the public make up its own mind. Why cant we watch "russia today" . Do we accept that prominent people who broadcast on RT for years, such as Larry King, were mere puppets of "evil putin"?
@@Feline-philosopher( in order to destroy a monster, one indeed runs the risk of becoming one.) People think disagreement is unpatriotic, but it's not, the best way to describe this slow moving train towards nuclear war, is like when pilot Wales beach themselves. These guys are so well read but they cannot offer balance, all they do is reinforce a orthodox view point which so far has never brought peace. . At some point you realize this is not a movie where there is a good guy and bad guy, there are just people dying and suffering.
@@ballerblocks ja you express it well, and it is a sobering moment in history. I guess many of us are marked by the optimism of the nineties, after 1991. We never thought things could change (something john gray expresses elequently). And yet these two learned men are maybe missing some aspects of the current global situation. India, brazil, south africa, and many other states, likely do not share the views these two gentlemenn take on US influence (as being predominantly benign?)
It’s not ”at peace.”
@@Feline-philosopher I don't know if you had the same experience. But in the late 80s I remember, the constant education about nuclear war, politics was based around a realist approach, and when the 90s arrived, I remember having the feeling that finally we the people would have a chance to think about a future, and all the promises it held.
But alas that future has created a complacency of hegemony, which cannot be sustained in a globalised world.
It almost feels like we are the new Soviet Union, the leader at the top is frail(just like Yeltsin), and the media protects him, the voice of the people is actively disregarded. All that is left is collapse.
The similarity of the situation might be a stretch, but I have faith, that we may be saved from this fate, if more mature, less emotional and ideological people are in power.
John Anderson, it is such a shame that people like you aren't leading this country. Straight talking, thoughtful, strategic thinking and considerate of history. I yearn for this change. I hope you can influence our future politicians, or yourself to give a better leadership model for Australia.
Thank you for this talk, it was really interesting and thoughtful.
Lived in Perth for a year, you got a very wonderful country and you australians are a fun and loving people. Our greatest fault is our love of liberty and prosperity creates tolerance for violent behavior and false sense of natural wealth we can afford to do green economy with carbon tax because we have prosperity in the moment.
Anderson is a paid Shill and cannot be trusted with any options regarding Putin and Christianity
James, if you believe in democracy be careful for what you wish for. John Anderson gave Victor Davis Hanson - a far right wing trump activist - a fortnightly platform to spread the lies of the Trump campaign. Australia does not need Trumpism and the likes of any politician (including Anderson) who pedals false propaganda in Australia.
I do not think soooooo, he supports and approves war...
He's Australian so he has a colonial paternalistic attitude that is heavily biased towards western ideology. He's good but he's not controversial enough for me.
Please explain why Ukraine being a neutral country was such a difficult concept to accept
As Ukrainian I can explain why may be yes or may be not it is difficult. Fundamentally it is up to ukrainian people to believe, accept or reject, join or not, decide or not who and where they should be or be for whom or be neutral or not. Often when some one very far from other one... powerful much it is no matter at all what to be, because as US can be what ever US want to be, but not neutral. In the case of small countries with the list to say, very powerful and/or aggressive and/or imperialistic dictatorial country as neighbor, it hard to be and/or to live normal life, when for centuries on, such imperialistic neighbor as a historical fact show us, biting from you how we say "shmat by shmat" that is piece by piece till.... you know what. One just need to glimpse seriously history of Russian revolution, Soviet Union, communist ideology, etc. to realize what Soviet Union/Russia was and is. Ideology, mentalitet, all russsian world veiw etc. etc. which constituted term "Russian World" and undercurrent of this concept that have name to it now "rushism", to hopefully realize that small countries around rushist entity is very vulnerable apparently, as example of Poland, Baltick states, Moldova, Georgia etc. etc. show us. Not to mention that neutrality must be supported by some one, because s we know well there in human history no real neutrality at all. Just look realistically and historically honest back to WW2... Well much can be said about it... Some one said of russian origins: "Globalist world of today is a competition and other coming to get what you have...". I think wise word in it nature to be taken deeply in.
@@Eli-Eizen observing Ukrainian leadership, I came to conclusion that why Ukraine was never a country before 1991
@@aslampervez2294 Observing? Observing leadership you did not observe anything, and from where did you observe? Living is understanding. Observing is nothing. i ones observe fish in river. It lead me only to short time empty observation. Your statement about "was never a country" just show your ignorans and lack of any or at list historical education. So I, as Ukrainian who not only obeserve fish but eat it often out of the river, advise you to educate yourself before involved in observations and comments about Ukraine.
@@Eli-Eizen when was time period in past 500 years Ukraine currency ever circulated in Ukraineian territory
@@aslampervez2294 A ti sho bolnoy na golovu zovsim? Poz, kogda kogda. when when. learn history. I can teach you debil but you need pay for history lectures. Go and observ fish in river. better for your level of IQ.
This man is part of the establishment that got us to where we are today. People may want to consider that before they pay homage to his brilliance.
What man? There are two in the video.
John Gray is so out of touch with Russian reality he must have been watching / reading the BBC
Philosophy today has become poisoned by bad faith sophists. It’s an absolute anathema to the fundamental core of what philosophy is to have evolved this way. There aren’t many, at least in the anglopsphere, like John left.
Agreed. I study philosophy and have a ton of disagreements with John, but he is an honest intellectual who doesn’t pander. Read Enlightenment’s Wake. It will shed interesting light on current events.
@@JeansiByxan I’ve read John but not that one, so I shall. I did philosophy undergraduate too. I loved it and firmly believe that introducing some basic philosophical thinking ‘tools’ to classrooms around the ages of 12-14 could radically change our world for the better.
I've always enjoyed Gray talking about theories of history, and did here, but his views on current issues like Ukraine and Covid seem hopelessly middle of the road and unreflective . For example, he speaks of Putin wanting to protect "the Russian world", which he seems to regard as some kind of pre-rational political mysticism. It doesn't seem to occur to him that he speaks about defending the west in precisely the same way - the desire to defend the West being simply the natural thing to do. In relation to Covid, he presents the Covid vaccination campaign as undiluted "science", as though commerce and politics played no part in it. When talking about the barbarous practise of "former persons" under communism; it doesn't occur how close we came, or may still come, to making the so-called "unvacinated" community "former persons."
Well said
Have to agree here that Gray is very both siderish. While correct that Russia and China are highly rational, but not only have a different viewpoint also significantly different risk factor assessments.
His Russian religious fixation likely has some validity, but completely fails to illuminate on Russias +4000 km border with China. He dangled that much of Russias natural resources are populated with non ethnic Russians. Gray is not alone in ignoring the influence and risk that China poses to Russia. Those 400 ICBM silos capable of 4000 hypersonic warhead delivery perhaps a few minutes from impact across entirety of Russia. Russia may very well need to conjure everything mythological strength and motivation in the very near future.
Grays fear that US conservatives might be isolationist is interesting but fails to account for the incredible issues that the Leftist government has created. It's a prioritization
Overall a great discussion for me to hear someone so learned and astute in the middle.
Also to my mind he did not make the link between lockdown and vaccine zealoutry and his other ideas about science as 'faith'. Perhaps he is scared. I mean incapacitated by his own fear of personal health rather than political fear.
I feel as if he has completely disregarded the individual constituencies of states.
What do the people of the U.S., Austria, and Hungary want?
That is more important than what the political elite want.
I think you have covered this talk really well. Thank you for crystalizing the apparent flaws in John Grey's perspective so well and the intervening ten months has born them out very well.
If referring to Russian doctrine on nuclear weapons, it actually says nuclear weapons would be used, if their nuclear capabilities are attacked/get launch warning. It is NOT to saying that it allows using nuclear just a preemptive strike on occasion. Whether they stick to doctrine or no is separate question, but if one is referring to doctrine, then do it right.
The Russians have changed The Red Line , to any strike on Russia.Nuclear or not could get a nuclear response.
@@dmo7815 June 2020 doctrine does not say that. Do you have source? per 2020 threatening of nuclear is a a go, but still its about Russia critical infrastructure, launch facilities etc getting attacked.
Glad to see that someone knows the facts.
Personally I found that interview mostly detached from the realities of the world. An arrogant, "then let them eat cake" perspective which I find common to the UK.
De-Escalation through escalation.
Its good to hear views from all sides, but Prof. Gray was just voicing average opinions about topics he seemed to have only read about in the general media, I didn't feel any insights were given
He is brain washed by the dark deep state of America
Ooo
Which is why he's grossly wrong about the Ukraine conflict and tiananmen square. He is repeating MSM talking points.
Commentators who's "insights" are based on other commentators. Should not be commentators.
Have you read his books?
Was kinda funny that Straw Dogs wasn't mentioned amongst his publications. That book is still a masterpiece.
I love his books and I feel that that's his best. Perhaps John felt this audience would be more interested in works like False Dawn, more explicitly related to economics
Tucker Carlson is very critical of western imperialism, not pro Putin.
What climate problem. The one that is a transfer of money and power to the rich?
Yeah that one. Massive scam.
Hang onto your willful ignorance. It’s a gift.
Glad others can see through it, thanks
Hmm who should I believe, all the scientists in the world, or drdoug007 on UA-cam? 🤔 Hard to know
Interesting to reflect that as much as Merkel was lauded as a great politician of her generation, she is directly responsible for the two worst European geopolitical moves in recent history. Those being on immigration (which led directly to Brexit imo) and reliance on Russian energy. Could argue she was too EU focused perhaps, in which case, the ramifications of those choices have an added bitter irony.
Merkel also objected to nato expansion in budapesth declaration though. If she got her way this wouldn’t have happened
She was a completely irresponsible, shallow, and short-sighted maniac and so , unsurprisingly, canonised by the liberal left.
Other noteworthy crimes:
1. Her role in the euro crisis: pauperising Greece to bail out corrupt German bankers
2. Pandering to the “green” lobby to shut down the most environmentally sound source of energy (nuclear) and replace it with coal
and she weakened the German military
@Josh man not sure that can be entirely put on her can it? My understanding is that for reasons of history, Germany has been pretty unenthusiastic about building their military capabilities....like for 70 something years or so....
She got it massively wrong with mass immigration taking huge amounts of people diametrically opposite in culture, religion and world views and thinking they would take one look at the lovely advanced Germany and all those centuries of culture would melt away in awe and admiration. The ensuing resentment on both sides, largely as to how much and how long to teach, train and then employ with many being semi literate and unskilled even in their country of origin or having skills superseded .
As for Östpolitik she was not the only one thinking economic and favourable trade inclusion would gradually liberalise Russia. Many in EU thought the same and had power transferred from Putin to a moderate, who knows. The same was done for China with many many favourable deals, developing country status etc. People forget how much the west, but specifically USA did for USSR and China in WW2 with supplies and helping China drive the Japanese out.
Tucker Carlson is not pro Putin. Sick of this claim.
I just get the feeling Prof. Gray are falling behind a lot on his knowledge. I don't know if this is due to his high levels of education and assumption that he is right without doing proper analysis and research on these topics. Or that he have fallen victim to the degradation of information passed down by legacy information platforms. Its hard to listen when someone speaks with his authority but misses the mark on multiple occasions on rather pressing topics. I was waiting for John to challenge the talking points and off point takes, but the interjection never came sadly.
EXACTLY. This tree hugging guest loves the sound of his own voice and did not offer an original thought, just retrospectives, guesses and regurgitation from the left wing media he consumes, all of which is nothing new. His denigration of Trump who left the United States in the best shape in decades and his relative admiration for Biden as having done a "reasonable" job with Ukraine is proof positive that he has no understanding of Americans and America today. God, he is insufferably arrogant as he prattles on as if he is holding court. And John was like a puppy and now seems to be anti-Trump. Had to turn it off midway and find a stomach distress bag.
John Gray seems to ignore the war in Ukraine wouldn't have been a disaster if the US hadn't forced European partners if it ( US) wasn't adamant to non- negotiations
Phenomenal conversation. I remember studying John Gray in college. I've never seen him in an interview and it was great.
There are lots of interviews or talks by him on UA-cam
Thanks John , Please look into the recent UN and WEF , World economic forum , recent joint agreement for the Acceleration and implementation of the Agenda 2030 . People don't understand how precious freedom is ( untill it slowly taken away or given away ) .
This is of primary purpose today, especially in Australia where our human rights were destoyed very quickly, and agenda 21 exceeded expectations. And I saw Morrison's smug, beaming face as Schwab personally praised him for using covid to advance their aims. It is to be remembered both John and Morrison were / are part of the coalition, not that the opposition opposed any erosion of the human rights of Australians, so we are left without a viable democratic solution, and may as well be in a totalitarian regime.
Biden is taking it to the next level we still got 2.5 years 😶
I was just about to mention this. The undercurrents of the "public/private partnership" and that involvement in the trade war with China, the eruption of Covid as a bioweapon, and now Russia making moves on Eastern Europe as supply chains get destroyed. This was predicted. Yet not mentioned here at all?
@@annabelleb2822 Only the mainstream gets discussed.
People are beginning to understand how precious freedom is - we had our lives turned upside down through harsh Covid controls. And people are starting to understand how the UN/WEF agenda - "you will own nothing and be happy" - will take away all the wealth everyday people and families have managed to eke out the last 70 years - young people are already realizing they will never own a home. Democracy is inconvenient to this WEF new world order and I encourage anyone and everyone to use our envied preferential voting system wisely to show your disapproval and oust the Morrison government.
Thank you both. From a viewer in the Commonwealth of The Bahamas.🌸🌸🌸
Thank you both for this fascinating and sobering discussion.
The fact that we do not share Putin's values is key. From Ghenghis Khan to Stalin and Mao, autocratic rulers will destroy entire cities and eradicate populations in order to achieve political ambition. The greatest failure of Western Liberal democracy has been to assume that globalisation of trade will harmonise political ideology. Unfashionable though it may be, military power is the essential underpinning of political power, and Europe has lost sight of that fact. The point about ignorance of history and preference for studying our own oppressions is real insight. Altogether an excellent presentation. Thanks for your efforts.
Yes, evil is the driver of world history and the business of history is still good.
Didn't bush destroyed entire cities?
You forget to mention the carpet bombing and atomic attack by the American in the Second World War
Because The rest of the world develop their economies
The western power cannot dominate the rest of the world anymore
Western power need to respect other race n country
The rest of the world do not share the value of the Western power
@@wingkeungkong415 I could argue that the Japanese were the aggressors in WWII, but I agree that it was essentially a power struggle, and civilian populations were considered expendable on the path to victory.
I respect all the conversations and I acknowledge the people in them are highly intelligent, therefore even when I disagree I listen. However, I have fundamentally different views on China and what is happening in Ukraine, from what I consider to be good research and knowledge of the history of the Ukraine and China, and a peek into China from my wife who is Chinese, born in 1966 so has seen the worst of China and also the rise and rise of China. She was in China in 1989 and has a far more nuanced view of events such as Tiananmen square.
Time will tell who is right, in particular about Ukraine, probably a long time. John, I am reminded of Doug Anthony sending off young men to die in Vietnam when I listen to you.
There is still debate on whether he was right or wrong.
I fear the consequences of getting it wrong this time are far more severe.
...... and this is only a comment, so I concentrated on making points rather than explaining
As enlightening as it is to listen to johns perspective, and as a left leaning individual i truly do respect his tragic realism, but i couldnt help but notice what wasnt mentioned in this interview. Is it not obvious that western media is not presenting putins actions in a reasonably nuanced fashion? It has been noted (perhaps by chomsky on his recent interview on yt concerning swedens joining NATO), that putins actions are uniformly characterised by western media spokesmen as "an unprovoked attack on a democratically run sovereign state..." Would the US take no action against mexico if it allowed chinese armaments and weaponry to be deployed close to the state of texas? How can one belittle "postmodern" ideology in the form of "woke" leftism on the one hand, whilst remaining silent or omitting to mention the mediocre functioning of democracys major social institution (the press) for reporting objective facts on the international scene? Dont i as a western citizen get to judge for myself if i want to watch RT to get the russian perspective or not? Did the western press behave entirely objectively (and i might add truthfully) prior to the invasion of iraq twenty years ago?
China is also extremely good at brainwashing its own population, so your wife’s opinion means nothing.
@@Feline-philosopher Yes , I agree. The Cuban Missle Crisis in the 60 s and J Kennady , yet Putin said Ukraine will be a buffer from NATO. And Western Corporate Media is on the Top 10 list of worse enemies ,don’t believe their lies . What has Joe got right ? Open migration, more taxes, oil dependence, devaluation of the $ by free free free and shut it down , debogled withdrawal from Afghanistan , now free speech regulation ,left $80. Billion of weapons in Afghanistan because of a poorly planned withdrawal,now $40 Billion for corrupt Ukraine,
Thank you, thank you, thank you for posting your comment. The US/West's portrayal of Russia and China through dominance of MSM/tech censorship, and the level of anti-China/Russia has reached absurdity. Reasoned debate on anything outside the narrative in all western countries is impossible atm - an extension of Covid. The level of state control over what we see and hear today is exactly what the west ridiculed in Soviet days. The US has been the dominant world power for decades - the world is where it is today because of US "free market imperialism" - designed to retain hegemony by keeping other countries down economically. Of course there was always the ruthless US military to destroy any noncompliant countries/leaders. We follow the US to our own country's demise now. The US is turning to Asia and manufacturing consent for war with China through their MSM propaganda. US will try to drag Australia into economic warfare first with sanctions as they are doing to Europe v Russia. Then possibly naval blockades of trade routes - Australia will destroy its economy and future for decades as we are so reliant on China/Asian trade. If war breaks out between US/China, does Australia blindly send our youth to be butchered or if it goes nuclear we will all probably die. Always question the narrative being forced down our throats or we are doomed.
@@Feline-philosopher No. But they always played along with the official narrative. This time the bias is unmistakable.
I read _The Immortalization Commission,_ it's an excellent book. Also, I recommend _Black Mass,_ if you liked this interview.
John Howard's deputy PM should know a lot about war criminals
I’m flabbergasted at the lack of ‘rationality’ displayed in this discussion. Prof Gray lost me the moment he declared such support for NATO. Any objective/philosophical undergraduate in the west today would never describe NATO as a defensive force. The prejudicial assessment of current Russian society is completely without nuance and tolerance. There is no reference to the economic achievements of the Russian government following the departure of Yeltsin or indeed the destructive role of America immediately after the dissolution of the USSR. John Mearsheimer may not be a philosopher but he has my vote. If Prof Gray is regarded as an eminent philosopher then I really fear for the future of this planet. Like Mearsheimer I hope for the transformation to a multipolar world and the end of US hegemony. Therein will lie the possibility of a return to diplomacy and negotiation. I would venture to suggest that rather than pursuing an immature notion of Putin the villain this philosopher would benefit from widening his knowledge of realistic geopolitics.
Well said.
A3gree with you 100% it is as if he is unaware of Professor Mearsheimer's powerful argument that NATO has fomented this crisis. The problem with most academic is they are two steps removed from practical reality.
@@algoa456 YEAH ! I'm sure the kid whoose dad was shot dead for nothing by some Russian orc, at one of their so called check points would agree ! The late Solzenitsyn was obviously a Western Stooge, and the late Stalin had Russia's interests at heart apart from the odd million he killed.
Thank you! So well put on every point!👍
On the Rouble payroll are we?
Always a pleasure to read or hear John Gray. In this case, the experience of seeing a highly intelligent and articulate man base his analysis on an uncritical acceptance of the prevailing narrative promoted by a media class which has proven itself profoundly unreliable over the last six years was as instructive as it was disappointing.
What a brilliant interview. Prof Gray shared some tremendously profound insights in this interview. I look forward to reading your books, Sir.
I've read a few, he's good!
It is such a comfort to listen to well dressed Gentlemen, discuss contemporary concepts like Communism, as the economy collapses around them.....
The Smartly Attired Swells of London discussing the brazen desires of the St Perersburg Crowd, to interfere with the exploitation of India for fun and profit, kept the Press Gangs of Liverpool working overtime to round up bodies in 1853 to deliver to the gates of Sevastopol.
The similarities to this conversation may have been an inspiration to the Widows of the Light Brigade, in their mourning?
The families of the Mercs who seem to find themselves in Russian Custody, would now enjoy the fact that some things never seem to change, as the efforts to support exploitation of Russian Assets continues today.
What brave souls linger within the Underground Facilities of the Azovstal Underground POW Camp?
How shall Conservative Values contribute to the betterment of social stability?
Will the Project for the New American Century succeed to restore sanity?
Viva La Stability!
We have all these great minds that try to frame the future for us. However, truth be told, none of us can tell what will happen five minutes from now.
Five minutes from now a cup of tea
Thanks wataboutya ! I can also say: the world future is so rich in possible outcomes,so in the end a genius can be wrong and an idiot become right. Of course listen to experts,but not too much.
They aren't great minds...they are criminals in the Highest order...pawns...letches
This man literally has no idea what he is talking about. Stuck in his ivory tower, he is completely out of touch and buying into his friends propaganda. His world view is completely warped from reality because of his elitism.
I have great respect for John Gray's philosophical ideas but I completely reject his understanding of the Russia-Ukraine war, he's opinion no different than what's been parroted on BBC and the rest of the legacy media
Inflation is more important to most people in the US than Ukraine. Our politics is fractured beyond belief. We have a whole generation hammered by 2008, the Pandemic, and now the economic effects of Ukraine. Meanwhile billions of dollars are flowing with little debate to a place that, contra Ukrainian propaganda, has little bearing on American, as opposed to Polish or Baltic, security. Ironically, Ukraine actually harms Australian security by diverting our attention from China. And Biden by throwing Western weight around is actually accelerating the change in the current world order.
***
Gray just pointed out how things could get worse, then said it couldn't get worse. If Moscow collapses, what's to prevent Russians from selling nuclear weapons to whoever has the cash for whatever the reason. Is that better than Putin?
Mr. Gray. The US citizenry isn't afraid of nuclear power plants to the extent you let on here. The US needs the fed government to subsidize nuclear power plant projects and help to clean up the regulatory problems that keep it so expensive.
not only USA citizenry but Europe are all brain washed to go green .... seriously sick
Agree. But the greens and leftists ARE opposed to them. Not sure why. Probably be sure for them the only good answer is fewer poorer and less independent people.
@@jo9732 Most progressives ,to include Greens, are only interested in talking points fed to them by those who actually know better but spout virtue signalling platitudes designed to get an emotional reaction.
He is calling Putin a Terrorising individual, but seems to completely ignore that the USA fuelled terrorism in Afg and still maintains connections with them. Prof Gray seems to make a lot of sense, but I find it difficult to follow as he still sticks to the idea that one side is more "moral" than the other.
This Professor lost me when he said "Biden Handled Ukraine well'. Seriously, there would be no war if Biden hadn't shown military weakness in Afghanistan. Funny how Putin didn't invade when Trump was president.
A nonsensical response sorry to be frank. Biden was not President when the US waged war on Afghanistan. You too need to study history my friend. Why don't you blame the Pandemic on Biden too?
Lost me too
Agree. Let's be frank. This war was 100% avoidable. But as with all conflicts, avoiding them requires concession. Ideally from both sides. In this case, Biden almost willed this outcome. Putin, while certainly no 'good guy' by anyone's definition, has been unequivocal about where his loyalty and ambitions anchor. Like those behind MAGA, he prioritises the interests of Russia ahead of other nations, cultures and regions. He was also decisive and unambiguous about what a NATO bordering ally would mean. Since 2014, he articulated numerous times this concern, and requirement. Yet, the West, errr..we, ignored him. Entirely. Why. Why NOT engage to resolve this dispute or address his concerns, starting by acknowledging they exist. This is how a civilised and effective diplomacy works. Unless that was never the aim. Now we have a literal egomaniacal clown running around to nations and NGOs orchestrating phone-a-thons. Ha. It is comical. This corrupt imposter, Zelensky, a hero? No. Nor is Putin. Nor are 'we' of the West to be lauded. All that has happened could well have been avoided. And still could be. Yet there is no open forum, no invitation to talks. No attempt to end this war via diplomacy. This should tell you everything you need to know. The obvious is that this is intentional. And willed - just as Biden foretold in January in yet another of his incoherent, emphatic word-jumbled teleprompted speeches. God help us.
@@tdagkhan The war is already on going, for it to stop Russia has to win the war. Russia with abandon fuel, food n manpower should last longer than Ukraine. Also NATO countries are hurting with inflation n recession n constant aids to Ukraine, they should bleed for being the expansionists that provoke this war.
Trump planned to leave Afghanistan in the same time frame.
You lost him because you can't abide to hear even the faintest praise for the Biden government or the slightest criticism of the Trump shambles
Thanks great conversation!
Very interesting. Please work on getting the microphones worked out better. Much of Mr. Gray's audio was horribly muffled.
Americans could loose interest in giving Ukraine $44 billion. The horror!
America can print millions out of thin air because everybody needs dollars to trade. That's is supreme privilege.
Exactly what I was waiting for, 1+ hour on the topic!
18:15. I clicked off at this coincidental point. “That’s enough.” John Gray describes a world I would read about, if I were to read the New York Times regularly, a view of the world I recognize, but am convinced is about to change. I’ve walked Manhattan on enough cloudy days to know that “All the News That’s Fit to Print” ignores the realities above the first floor, and has done so for over 20 years. To use the propitious 1815 lay of the Land…. The brutality of Russia’s failed invasion of Ukraine rearranged the deck chairs on the ship taking brutes to St. Helena. The brutes will still get there, no matter how many times the chairs are moved around.
How can anyone take these talking-heads seriously, when one of them said that he supported Thatcher's policy. I would like him to state which Thatchers policy benefited the ordinary working-class today? One can also ask, philosophically, in which area that the US has shown moral leadership currently which can be an example for the world.
Exactly.
What about the various treaties and assurances that NATO would not be creeping eastward?
I seriously question the timing of all of this, had the Ukraine been invaded in 2020, when our government was locking us in our houses, or 2021 when they were mandating jabs, I doubt it would have been widely reported. Inflation had been happening months before this event, and the Ukraine makes a useful culprit for politicians. I think it is vital we fight to restore our own human rights back from our government before we interfer in other countries.
Valerie that point is washed out by the fact that all NATO members have sought membership because they are afraid of Putin. In fact, they are far more afraid fo Putin than so many in the US. Why? Look at the present. I highly suggest that people do some research into Russian geopolitics instead fo just repeating a prepared phrase that has little to do with the bigger picture. Reading on topics such as neo-Eurasia, Russian infiltration of the far right in Europe, the Russian World, the Third Rome, Aleksandr Dugin, will quickly show you why Putin needs to be stopped in Ukraine. People like Tucker Carlson are doing a tremendous disservice to the US. It is not only the left that is destroying 'western civilization', but many on the right are now doing serious damage as well. As for the repeated nuclear threats coming from Russian heads of state and Russian TV -nobody on God's earth should speak like that. Take it seriously.
It is an irony to me that Trump himself has said he would send "MiGs and more" to Ukraine, that a stronger response is needed, and that he would tell Putin that the US has bigger nuclear weapons. He has said that Putin now is not the same person he knew when he was in office. It is striking to me that those who would like to see him reelected are the same who take the stance you indicate above, which he would not think relevant to the present. I am truly concerned about this and believe that we are all on the side of preserving the West that we love.
No such treaties existed or could even exist. What really existed a promise of Ukrainian territorial integrity in exchange for the nukes and the USSR seat in the UN Security Council. It was violated by Russia in 2014 by annexation of Crimea and invasion into Donbas and Lughansk.
Interesting conversation. Didn't agree with some of Gray's points and he seems very 'establishment' in his thinking about such things as 'conspiracy theories' on covid vaccines (shown now to be less 'safe and effective') and the nature of Ukraine and Zelensky (coke-addled and corrupt).
"as bad or worse than Trump" He lost me right there. Trump has his faults but unlike biden, Trump is at least pro American and pro Western Civilization.
Yes I felt much safer in the Pacific with Trump in the drivers seat, and then he praised the trampling of our human rights under covid.
Yes, lost me too
Yes, how dare he say something bad about my god!
Depends on what you mean by Pro-Western. If undermining democracy is pro-western then that is quite an unusual claim.
@@JeansiByxan Trump supports democracy. The democrats like biden are the ones attacking democracy
Hmm... the guy just contradicted himself. He said the west has short attention span, then said Putin wants to escalate the war... The lesson from Vietnam, Afghan is clear, Putin should just wait it out until the west gets bored and moves on.
Or just wait until winter until Europe is cold and decides to move on.
Best to date. Well done
The show is more like parents talking about their unruly teen agers.
Russia on road to economic developments thru closer ties with China's economic & manufacturing powerhouse.
As enlightening as it is to listen to johns perspective, and as a left leaning individual i truly do respect his tragic realism, but i couldnt help but notice what wasnt mentioned in this interview. Is it not obvious that western media is not presenting putins actions in a reasonably nuanced fashion? It has been noted (perhaps by chomsky on his recent interview on yt concerning swedens joining NATO), that putins actions are uniformly characterised by western media spokesmen as "an unprovoked attack on a democratically run sovereign state..." Would the US take no action against mexico if it allowed chinese armaments and weaponry to be deployed close to the state of texas? How can one belittle "postmodern" ideology in the form of "woke" leftism on the one hand, whilst remaining silent or omitting to mention the mediocre functioning of democracys major social institution (the press) for reporting objective facts on the international scene? Dont i as a western citizen get to judge for myself if i want to watch RT to get the russian perspective or not? Did the western press behave entirely objectively (and i might add truthfully) prior to the invasion of iraq twenty years ago?
That had nothing to do with Ukraine but Nato. The fact that Russian propaganda is sp successful in making people believe Ukraine is the aggressor is, frankly, astounding. Perhaps the most successful propaganda campaign of all time.
Well said. But 'the media' are not called FAKE for nothing. Western media have a lot to answer for going all the way back to the shocking reporting (or deliberate misreporting) on the two world wars.
we need to resist the propaganda of all governments, including ours.
@@JeansiByxan This war has been going on for 8 years . The Azor fighting against Donbas citizens. The disappearance of eastern leaning citizens.
I can’t believe John has held a position in prestigious Yale university while he can’t even understand that all super military powers need their buffer zones. USA would never tolerate Russia making military alliance with Mexico while for years NATO weapons were just mètres away from Russia border. Ukraine should have stay neutral n do prosperous businesses with both sides. Joining the color revolution sponsored by the West was clearly a deadly mistake. Tragic really.
Agree 100%. And Putin asked to join nato. Imagine if we had done that and began grading with them? Per chance this whole thing would not have happened. Who knows.
Love your show.
(Please adjust audio microphone levels to prevent the consistent crackling. Thanks 🙏 👍.)
Isaiah Berlin
Exceptional!
I wish the time would come when Westerners will realize that there are other civilizations beside them. The whole business of "my way or the highway" needs to go away.
Professor has some good insights from a European point of view. He is right about people not wanting to learn from history, but I think much of that is educational ignorance not intentional necessarily.
Regarding the US, I think he misses some things. Republicans are not far right in a Euro sense. Traditional American Republicanism was not isolationist, but had principled involvement. The Democrats under FDR projected that and won, but later Neo-Cons took over the party brought in the old War Party Democratic views. Trump tried to get them out and dull possible wars. He stopped many conflicts, but did not get credit for it. Biden has not made good decisions on anything. He is ill. The Democrats are guilty of senior abuse.
Even if you disagree with some of his views, he has some nugget insights, which is about education. John is very good at allowing this conversation. Triangulate from all sources to real knowledge.
American Fundamentalism has had a number of stages. The end of the world is traditional Protestant Christian. Augustine also held this view. To keep it simple, his view of how it sorted out was different along the way, but he believed in an end.
PS - there is a loud minority that are anti-Ukraine. Most are not really pro-Putin. And, Tucker Carlson is not pro-Putin. That’s wrong.
And you think your comment is completely unbiased no doubt?
@@powellp25 No one is unbiased. No one is neutral. The thing that matters is accuracy.
Be sure & give us update next semester.
The end of the world is central to Christianity- but the end of the world or history within Christianity is a supernatural event akin to incarnation or resurrection. It isn't something located within human history but marks the end of cosmic history as such. This is what separates Christian eschatology from the secular belief in progress.
We are so enamoured by rationalism that we are totally blind to the fact that we are only partially rational beings, and some of us are more so than others, and we certainly do not all share the same values. We have a far too benign view of human nature that has become a destructive delusion.
John Gray is exactly the antidote we need to our comfortable complacency. I wish his writings would become as popular as 50 Shades of Grey!
A fascinating discussion.
On a minor topic, the contrasting prevalence of spiritualism after the first and second world wars, my theory is that astounding new technologies and scientific theories can seem, as has been said, like magic, or can seem to indicate mystical “facts” about the world. The Greeks may have used technically advanced mathematics, geometry and automation to promote religious devotion by impressing the gullible. In the early twentieth century it was x-rays, relativity, quantum physics that made some people think they could pin down “spiritual” phenomena. Today, as the story about the computer simulation of the man’s grandfather suggests, we have another wave of astounding technology that invites mystical fantasies. In the vein, I hope, of John Gray, I see human beings as partly rational and partly irrational. We must always remember that the struggle for truth, common sense and decency doesn’t always progress, and will never end.
Just a footnote here: The existentialists, but really starting with Schopenhauer, as Popper noted, have shown, with the phenomenological reduction, that the primacy of human action is the irrational; that the rational is derivative. Hume also acknowledged this, as Plantinga has more recently noted.
Well, I do not have his text on Mill, but I do have John's book, Feline Philosophy - Cats and the Meaning of Life. An excellent read if you have the time.
PR China 🇨🇳 is still liberalising economically compared to Western nations.
People worry too much about the Chinese economy compared to our own Western economies.
China's problem🇨🇳 is their anti-Christian stance not wealth.
China is a mixed bag.....but it's much more cunning than Russia...Russia is and always was brute force with low wisdom. It was like that ever since it's conception.
Excellent interview as usual, however for the record Tucker has only asked Joe & Kamala to be as concerned about American borders as much as they are concerned about Ukraine's borders. Fox Net judging by the amount of American Generals they have on are very anti-putin - Thanx John
Nope, I remember how at the start of the invasion Tucker repeatedly threw shade at Ukraine issue, saying that Americans shouldn’t suffer for “a corrupt East-European country”. Chilling, how short-sighted those influencers are in not understanding they then would surrender the Western Europe to Putin as well, and thus their senior partner China.
@@watershed8685what you are talking about
It is the America expanding its power to the east for the past
30 years
@@wingkeungkong415 mind your own Chinese business. If you do and don’t act rabidly, you won’t get bruised by an underdog like Russia. But of course you can’t, you’re a thousands year old empire, like it gives you any right to subjugate people around you.
@@watershed8685 in this world
There is only 3 great power Which is truly independent
They are America Russia n China
And think that the conflicts between American and Russia woud not be Chinese concern
You have zero political sense
If Russia go down
I bet you know which country is American next target
That is also why North Korea n
Iran are supporting Russia
Why don't this guy talk about what nato did in Iraq Afghanistan and US in Vietnam
May i add in Serbia, Libya and Syria?
He's talked about that at length in other interviews, and he is highly critical of US intervention in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya. But it is a mistake to say "what NATO did" - some of the countries that participated in these campaigns were NATO members, but NATO itself (as an organisation) played no role in the decision to invade these countries. That's a crucial distinction.
Great conversation, but the question of what if Americans hadn’t intervened is not fair. The deal after ww2 was that we didn’t seek power in Europe, and let US be the big brother. I think many Europeans would prefer for us to look after ourselves. The trade of sending our most driven and skilled to work and live in US in exchange for military protection is that great
No one is forcing people to emigrate to the US lol. Many Americans wish we didn’t spend trillions to defend Europe, and used that money for our crumbling roads and schools, so you may get your wish for an independent Europe
Great discussion and insights! Thank you
9:06 - has Big Business been gullible about China, or has it been amoral, greedy, and focused on short-term gain? By the way, thank you, John, for this upload. 😃
Morality is a social construct; money is real, at least from the businesses' perspective.
@@brunokagawa6287 Accepted.
Putin, Chinese demographic decline, malignant Islam and Euro Socialist wokism are existential threats to western values. Trump victory and retreat is a free pass for Chinese misbehaviour in SE Asia
There is a large pro Russian population in the East of Ukraine who are quite badly treated in Ukraine from various accounts.
I’m from Yugoslavia and as long as I’m alive America and NATO are enemy
There is large pro-ukrainian population in Crimea and Eastern part of Donbass which controlled by terrorists from so-called "people's republics" which treated worse in 2014-2022.
Putin is the one killing russian speakers in eastern ukraine
Why then this very population fights Russian invasion back now? Kiev and Kharkov are predominantly Russian cities, yet Putin failed to take them. In terms of ethnicity of the population it is as if the US tried to free Ontario and Manitoba from Quebec oppression...
Great to see a north east scholar out there! Fantastic chat!
More like CNN parrot
Why would electing Le Pen have been bad for Ukraine ?
There are mixed reports on her.
Supposedly, she has ties to Russia and will pull back on NATO involvement, but she has said that she would continue support for Ukraine. So, there are mixed reports - probably to support Macron’s election effort.
By the press.
she was anti sanctions, as it would destroy europe not russia.
Very biased and pro-establishment talking head.
John, love your interviews. You need to get Gordon Chang and get into it with him on China…
Great conversation.
This Geordie is Superbious, good guy, respect from a Scot.
Is that a Geordie accent? Never realised.
Philosophy is in rapid decline and therefore civilization.
Moral breakdown,egoism, decline of family values have harvested western world. It's sad indeed.
Love John Gray!
A great listen. Lazy and rigorous chat. Not really a conversation but that is what is good about john. He lets his guests speak ... if they can. Good to hear an australian accent among the plethora of voices on all these issues. This is the west as it actually is. This conversation could never take place in china or russia or anywhere else. Not on this truthful and intellectual level. Perhaps this is why liberal democracy will outlast these coming times and troubles.
John, why did you have this man on? He is so pro US, and cannot see the part the US played and is still trying to play in Ukraine.
He cannot look at Russia, and Putin, objectively. Putin has done a brilliant job of bringing Russia back after the US brought it to its knees in the 1990s.
I really don’t like this guest.
This is the first time I came across this professor. Incredible! He is thinking and talking about Atlanticism, NATO, Russia, America's role in the world etc., within the context and parameters of "the good old days of the Cold War", in other words he seems to be still living in the past.
John Anderson says "We (the West) have got to be realistic about Russia ..." So far the West has been anything but realistic. Its shock and awe sanction has specularly failed. Europe cannot mount even a fake oil embargo, a plan to launder Russian oil via maritime loop holes and Greek tankers allowed to carry. Europe capitulated to Ruble for gas without any credible plan to phase out this gas by winter. War on the ground has gone badly for Ukraine with unconditional surrender of Azov troops in Azovstal. Europe is entering deindustrialisation by RePowerEU energy phased reduction while shift to renewables under increasing stagflation ...
Get real about the contribution of Russia's commodities to the West's standard of living and the lack of any full substitute to it.
Lost me the minute he started talking about the evil Putin. Total rubbish.
Yep. War monger wants to destroy russia because they are christian.
Amazing interview, first time have gotten a nuanced and deep analysis of the conflict, grateful.
You are kidding? This is CNN fake news
Timestamps if you want them:
00:12 💥 John Gray highlights the limitations of Western deterrence due to the fear of nuclear escalation.
02:07 🎓 Gray criticizes modern philosophy for becoming an "intra-academic" discipline, lacking real-world applicability.
04:41 🌍 Gray explains his support for Thatcher due to her militant anti-communism and understanding of its consequences.
07:45 🇨🇳 Gray argues that China never intended to liberalize, debunking a common Western misconception.
09:21 🤝 Gray contests the idea that trade with totalitarian powers leads to them becoming less totalitarian.
10:29 🌐 China doesn't prioritize world opinion; repression in the country serves as a lesson for its people.
11:28 🧠 The West has a short attention span, failing to remember the history of communist repression and deception.
13:50 🤝 NATO is emerging as a successful Western institution, but political divisions in Europe and the U.S. could undermine it.
16:48 🇺🇸 Uncertainty in U.S. politics could affect the country's global commitments, especially if the next president leans towards isolationism or scaling down its role.
19:06 🌍 The Ukraine war marks a breakdown in the global nuclear settlement, posing risks like dampened interest in civilian nuclear energy and potential nuclear proliferation.
21:11 🌍 Putin's approach to risk differs from the Western perspective, driven by a semi-mystical concept of protecting the "Russian world," which goes beyond the current borders of Russia.
22:22 💥 Putin is willing to break norms, such as battlefield nuclear weapons, to achieve his goals, which poses challenges to traditional notions of deterrence.
25:13 ⏳ There are questions about the sustainability of a prolonged war for Putin due to logistical problems and human resource drain.
27:42 🌐 The Russian Federation may be more fragile than it appears, being a "corroded empire" rather than a unified nation state.
30:01 ⚖️ A regime change in Russia could result in the state collapsing, leading to unpredictable outcomes similar to previous cases like Iraq and Libya.
31:10 ⛪ The Russian Orthodox Church plays a significant role in Putin's regime, even taking on functions similar to those once held by the KGB.
32:34 🌍 The invasion of Ukraine is justified in Russia on a theological basis, emphasizing the importance of Russian civilization and orthodoxy.
35:06 🇺🇸 Europe's role in the Ukraine crisis is questionable without U.S. support, highlighting Europe's military and logistical limitations.
37:28 🇩🇪 Germany has not committed to becoming a significant military spender, partly due to its energy dependency on Russia.
39:03 🇷🇺 Putin is prepared to weather the economic sanctions, believing their impact on Russian society to be sustainable.
41:27 🌍 The speaker expresses strong concerns about Russian propaganda in Ukraine, emphasizing that it should not be allowed to happen, as it would lead to the erasure of Ukraine's national culture.
42:40 🤝 Discusses the reliance of European countries on American engagement, questioning if America can balance military conflicts and ramping up defense structures at the same time.
44:19 🔄 Raises questions about the current ideological landscape, wondering if the resurgence of absolutism and trust in science contradicts the post-modernist narrative that Western society had previously embraced.
46:16 🧠 Mentions the rise of conspiracy theories and mass panics, despite scientific progress, challengingoptimistic views about the rationalization of society.
50:35 📚 Discusses the tendency to neglect history, emphasizing that historical lessons often bring a sobering perspective contrary to optimistic or utopian views.
51:45 🤔 One reason for the stalwart attitudes in countries like Ukraine and Poland is their vivid historical memory of invasions and tragedies.
52:54 📖 Western thinkers often ignore disillusioning parts of history, preferring to focus on areas of oppression that they can critique to feel virtuous.
55:03 📜 The concept of "former persons" in the 1918 Soviet constitution demonstrates the extreme deprivation of civic rights, illustrating the harsh realities of Soviet rule.
59:56 ⏳ Gains in democracy and rights are not permanent; evils like totalitarian regimes can reemerge, as seen in Putinism and in China's shift back to totalitarianism.
01:01:48 🇨🇳 A misunderstanding about China's political structure led to the false belief that trading and technological collaboration would liberalize the country.
01:02:17 🇨🇳 In China, key institutions and the economy are tightly controlled by the government, diminishing the possibility of a revolution from within, such as from the army.
01:03:56 ✝️ Modern secular movements, often critical of traditional Christianity, unknowingly express religious themes, particularly the idea of conquering mortality.
01:05:37 🧠 The concept of "Singularity," popularized by figures like Ray Kurzweil, posits that technology will advance to the point where human minds can be uploaded, offering a form of immortality.
01:09:08 🤖 Transhumanism suggests that humans could become "gods" through advancements in AI, but the actual implementation would likely be more dystopian, involving warring factions each with their own vision of post-humanity.
01:11:06 ⚖️ The conversation moves to the idea that if everyone becomes a "god" through technology, it leads to a power struggle due to lack of common rules, unlike the frameworks that govern human society today.
01:11:48 🧠 The West has had a simplistic view of human reason and rationality, extending even to the theory of nuclear deterrence.
01:12:18 ☮️ Nuclear deterrence has been effective since 1945, but questions arise whether it's due to wisdom or luck.
01:12:46 🌍 Both the West and the Soviets worked to limit nuclear proliferation, but this equilibrium may be destabilized by the situation in Ukraine.
01:13:26 🇺🇦 If Putin gains little from his actions in Ukraine, the temptation may be to escalate the conflict.
01:13:54 💥 Official nuclear doctrine allows for the use of battlefield nuclear weapons in certain circumstances, which would drastically change the global landscape.
While wrong, it's not true that non-religious woo comes from religious precedents. Rather, they both come from error, independently. They are the natural result of being an evolved pattern-matching biological being.
Tuned out as soon as he said "everyone" is grateful Macron won...lost any credibility with that statement.
He means that they are grateful Marine Le Pen lost coz she's a far right Nazi
Until LePen or her successor is elected to the Presidency, France can never be healed.
The healing and rehabilitation of France passes through Le Front National.
There is no way around it.
I lost interest in this conversation as soon as the interviewee said ""as bad or worse than Trump"". President Trump was the best President since President Reagan. Sure Present Bush (senior) was very good. Yet, President Trump acted in the interest of the people; not merely the people of the USA, but also of the people who seek liberty throughout the World. I have zero tolerance for any commenter who cannot recognize that self-evident truth. Failing to recognize that truth is a sure sign of support for the Fabian socialist agenda.
Regards,
Geoff. Reeks
This guy predicted Trump would win the election in 2016, one of the few commentators who did.
Liberty my arse.
There would be fewer wars if the US didn't stick its nose in everyone's business. Trump is right on that.
If the warmongers in USA are not involved, Ukraine can keep itself as neutral. There would be no war and no one would have been killed. If you don't believe, ask Professor John Mearsheimer.
Wow, thank you again John
Человек просто красуется. Знаний мало, одна болтология.
Exactly.
But it was the US in 2006/7 who first decided that nuclear weapons could be used tactically.
No that was soviet policy all thru the Cold War
@@jerrymiller9039 Really? What's your evidence?
@@jerrymiller9039 Don't you have any evidence at all, even the slightest?
@@robertaspindale2531 Yes I do
@@jerrymiller9039 Well, post it, otherwise people might not believe you.
Interesting to hear is views on Thatcherism - he left his 'moderate upbringing' in (South Shields) no doubt by then, (Happens to my birthplace also) but I experienced first hand the effects of Thatcher's policies up there in moderateland!
Words such as 'by all accounts' and 'apparently' strikes me as being tantamount to admitting no actual knowledge!
Perhaps it is an admission of a lack of omniscience or at least of incomplete information.
Fascinating exchange.
Please make a video on NATO's war on Iraq and Libya.
It is bewildering to me that John interviews many people seemingly in order to pontificate about the future and how this or that will impact our future. Or how will this translate? As a type of practicing Christian, John like us all is well able to KNOW how things will pan out. Now whether that is "This is what you will do to yourselves' or "I God, will make this happen' , is of no matter, but the future is well predicted and has been for 2,000 years. And would it not be truer if the interview took the way of "How do you see things fitting in with what has been told to us will happen?"
John Gray seems to be a little unsure of his support for Margaret Thatcher and rightly so, as who to my observation only accelerated the decline of Britain to today's third world status..
17:30-I write from the US. Putin is Europe’s problem, we can help but we have to deal with China and the regional powers there, Japan, SKorea, Australia, need our presence much more than the much bigger and stronger Europeans in NATO.
Europe needs to grow up.
Well Said!!!!
The biggest worry to the west especially the UK and US is far left wokeness. And open borders. We're heading to something that will resemble communism in decades to come.
Short circuit, accidental contact between two points in an electric circuit that have a potential difference
While I agree Putin has escalation dominance over Ukraine...He does not have that in Germany
Nor do the Chinese have escalation dominance outside the first island chain.
Great discussion. Very rare for me to hear a foreigner who truly understands Americans. Whether it's Orban like or not. American nationalism is coming
John Gray just confirms the impressions I've gained with all my interactions with philosophers: totally unworldly in that they haven't studied history in toto and can't by the nature of their training in ways of thinking come to any understanding of the world in which they live.
Much respect for both gentlemen and as well much appreciation for this conversation. However, on the topic of the corona vaccines and mass vaccination in relation to (so-called) conspiracy theories, I am sincerely dissapointed John Gray (in this video) is not expressing more nuance and critical thinking to the layered complexity of this phenomenon.
I ordered his book Straw Dogs a few days ago hope to read it this weekend.
Well done, it’s a masterpiece. You’ll love it
@@theodevaney5781 Amazon lost it in the post unfortunately
Hope you got another copy. Brilliant book that disturbed me at first, but which I've read over and over again
@@kurisensei I did and finished it a couple of weeks ago.
Too politically correct to be accurate.
Clueless on Ukraine.
Watch The Duran channel on Yt with its two associated channels.
Graham Phillipps channel on Yt.
100% 👍🏼