I'm usually in alignment with your take on many things provided on your channel but this one was a bit tone def, judgemental and a err on the capitalist point of view. I think your definition of "quiet quitting" is misinformed and your judgment of those who'd rather have a life of pure leisure is also eschewed. While you have some valid points, you can't speak for the generational masses.
Agreed! She described quiet quitting as a sort of general lifestyle, when it's almost always a reaction to workplace abuse under financial duress (aka, "I want to quit this job, but I don't want to be homeless" - not "I've decided arbitrarily that I don't believe in working anymore")
Thanks for your feedback; this is how I perceive the advice to "do the bare minimum" and the long-term negative psychological consequences I think that mentality can bring.
What about the idea of giving a medium amount at your job so that you can give more of your time and energy to a hobby/passion, like playing music. I don't mean turning your passion into a hustle you try to make money from. I mean just working to live -- working to afford the musical instruments you love to play and making time in the evening for friends to come over.
The first guy I worked for out of college was an actual maniac, hustle culture guy. He was a professor, had a bunch of rentals, was running a roofing company out of state, doing project management for a mobile home fund, among several other ventures. The dude worked himself to death and made good money, but nothing crazy. The second guy I worked for had only one venture, built an A team around him, and only really worked with 30 hours an week. He made way more money than the first guy I worked for...
It’s so hard to find middle ground. At my last job hustle culture got me 2 raises within a year but then I got cut cause of down sizing. I have never been the same since. Ik working hard helps with the right boss but never feel you’re too good to replace cause the more money you make the more you cost to pay. Now I’m stuck between hustling and being mediocre at my job cause I been low key offered a lead position. Idk if it bs to give me false hope or if it’s the real dead. How should I handle this?
I generally like your posts, and your thoughts on a subject, and I would say I do generally agree with this view here (as you've presented it). I also read your companion post of the topic. However, I think we missed a bit of nuance in this discussion and created a bit of a false dichtomy between the two cultures. I personally hate the term "quiet quitting", not because it's inherently a bad thing, but because it gives this negative connotation to something that thousands of people have already been doing, and been doing for good reasons. Before continuing, I'd like to state my understanding of the term quiet quitting as I think there is a lot of variation in the term's usage - "People doing the bare minimum to keep their job, and not wanting or accepting any work that is going above or beyond their base job description." Some people may have different definitions, but that has been my understanding. The missing context for me is the reason why people are wanting to just do the bare minimum. There are many reasons someone could be doing the bare minimum: 1. You work to live. You have outside passions where you spend all your time and energy and still enjoy a rich fulfilling life. You find your deep work and flow in your passions 2. You have a lot going on in your life and need to strike a balance because of unexpected circumstances. You don't plan to do this forever, but in the short term, it's the path forward 3. You've become disenchanted with the working world/maybe life in general, feeling a bit jaded and don't think you should ever put in extra work. For groups 1 and 2, you or may not think that they should still be able to give more at work, but in "7 1/2 Lessons about the Brain", Lisa Feldman Barrett discusses the idea of a mental budget. Other authors such as Cal Newport reference research that speak of willpower, or energy, but all the ideas are the same. There is a limited amount of work your brain can handle on a given day. Things like work, context switching, distractions, familial obligations, life problems all deplete a bit of that limited energy/capacity/budget. Therefore, someone who truly cares about a different passion is going to want to save every last drop of energy they can to pour it into their passion. Their life would be poorer if they didn't have the energy left over to execute their passion because they used it all at work. For this video, it sounds like you're talking about people that represent option 3. For those, I 100% agree that it's a negative feedback loop and will hurt their overall quality of life. I agree with your "trying to find some joy in your work" as a solution for that group. As Victor Frankl has said: “Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms-to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.” Two people can be in the same cirucumstances and react wildly different based on their mindest. Your mindest is a very powerful thing. In general, people's mindsets in life actually have more to do with their overall life satisfication and happiness that their life circumstances. There are very rich/fortunate people in the world who are absolutely miserable, and very poor/unfortunate people in the world that are far happier because they understand the true things in life that bring them happiness, like love, kindness, compassion, and gratitude. Here's a great post about just that - moretothat.com/the-levers-that-money-cant-pull/. Anyway, this has been a long-winded way to say I think the nuanced discussion, while more complicated, creates a more complete story. As presented, it has sounded (at least to me), that we need to have a satisfying career to be happy, and that is just one path in the many paths that people can walk. Presenting the nuanced story could help struggling people to realize there are more than 1 way to be happy, and more than 1 approach to satisfication in life. It's all up to the individual :)
I have not listened to the full episode yet, but I think: 1.- you are using "quiet quitting" in a way different from the way in which most people outside of the US do: it is usually understood to mean to do just the necessary work at your company, not to slack so much that somebody else has to do your job. 2.- If one has to do an extra hour one day, fine (as long as it is paid properly); if one has to do an extra hour every day, maybe it is time for the company to hire somebody, at least part-time. It is a problem of the company or of management, not the workers' problem. 3.- Not wanting to work extra (for a company you are not going to inherit) does not leave you without an aim in life: paid work is not all in life and, actually, some of the people I know who work the most are retired: gardening, being with friends, helping out with grandchildren, helping the community... 4.-The fact is that paid work is just something one has to do to be able to have money to live but, unless you are the owner of the company, every extra work one does goes to somebody else's pockets. 5.- There is a very good video of an interview with a guy who used to work at Amazon and got promoted because he improved a process so the company saved a lot of money. He moved to Canada and retired, but he is doing "active retirement", not just staying at home like a plant :-). I think that confusion between paid-work and things-one-can-do-with-life is a very interesting US idea. Why would you base your whole life, personality and everything on your paid work? 6.- As far as I have read, workers' productivity has increased greatly, but that improvement in productivity has not benefitted society in general or the workers' themselves, rather it goes to "investors". Not a good way of incentivizing workers to go above and beyond. 7.- Not wanting to work extra also does not mean that you magically become lazy and make no effort, it means you will focus that effort on something else (family, friends, society in general, people who need your help...). 8.- I think your points are interesting, though, and they have made me think :-).
Thanks for your feedback, I appreciate it - my primary goal with this video is to encourage people to find work that they do enjoy and, if in a toxic situation where emotionally disengaging feels like the only viable solution, to look elsewhere. My interpretation of quiet quitting leans mostly on the "bare minimum" element, but there's probably no standard definition
Hey Katie, I recently found your channel (after Ramit shared a clip from your interview) and have been getting a ton of value. Just finished listening to the travel rewards episode from May and definitely using it to inform my next credit cards! I really appreciated this clip because it's been quite challenging as a millennial to see many of my friends leave my company (or other places) on similar grounds to the "quiet quitting" movement. I've often found it hard to reconcile their perspectives and definitely didn't want to disregard them in case they saw something I didn't. But essentially, in trying to think for myself and in reasoning from first principles, I arrived at a very similar conclusion to what you presented here. That's why I love this clip so much; because you very eloquently highlighted the importance of being wary of the unhealthy aspects of both extremes while highlighting the dangers of blindly following the quiet-quitting movement. It's almost like "the middle path" concept from Buddhism applies here; the middle ground between attachment (to work) and aversion (to work)".
I've been binge watching your videos and listening to your podcasts a TON over the last two weeks or so now, and just want to say thank you for so much QUALITY advice. I am a in my very early 20's and work about 30 hours a week an accountant while finishing my bachelors which obviously means I love all the numbers that you talk about. Now i've watched alot of the retirement videos you have and living in Texas, what account(s) would you recommend the best as I am starting to put money aside for my retirement? Again thank you so very much for the great content!!
This is so kind, thank you!! (And congratulations on finishing your Bachelors!) Hmm, Texas is an interesting one since you don't pay any state income tax - so in your working years, I'd definitely try to shovel as much of that "extra income" into retirement accounts like the 401(k) and IRAs and taxable investing accounts. Since withdrawals from retirement accounts aren't taxed and SSI isn't taxed, you may be more inclined to go for the Roth 401(k) if you plan to retire there. :)
I watched this video and read your piece on Hustle Culture and Quiet Quitting. I agree mostly with your general points; however, the thing that creates these two toxic cultures is the business's lack of loyalty or lack of treating employees like human beings. If you have worked at a job for 5 years and given your best (within reason), there's an expectation to have humanity. But instead you walk into work at 8am. The supervisor walks you to your boss's office. The boss says not one word while HR is telling you to please sign these severance papers. You walk back to your desk with your supervisor to grab your stuff. Then the supervisor walks you out of the building by 8:20am. And there was no warning on this possible layoff the day before. You realize that for the last 6 months you were training a fresh out of college kid to be your replacement! This is why people rightfully feel violated by work culture in general.
Of course, I think fixing work is a big piece of this; the full episode digs into ESOPs and granting employees equity and ownership stakes, which I think plays a big role in feeling as though you benefit from your work
I'm usually in alignment with your take on many things provided on your channel but this one was a bit tone def, judgemental and a err on the capitalist point of view. I think your definition of "quiet quitting" is misinformed and your judgment of those who'd rather have a life of pure leisure is also eschewed. While you have some valid points, you can't speak for the generational masses.
Agreed! She described quiet quitting as a sort of general lifestyle, when it's almost always a reaction to workplace abuse under financial duress (aka, "I want to quit this job, but I don't want to be homeless" - not "I've decided arbitrarily that I don't believe in working anymore")
Thanks for your feedback; this is how I perceive the advice to "do the bare minimum" and the long-term negative psychological consequences I think that mentality can bring.
What about the idea of giving a medium amount at your job so that you can give more of your time and energy to a hobby/passion, like playing music.
I don't mean turning your passion into a hustle you try to make money from. I mean just working to live -- working to afford the musical instruments you love to play and making time in the evening for friends to come over.
I think that's a great solution
Katie, what you said doesn’t work. You don’t realize this, but Fail has an ANTONYM. What do you think the OPPOSITE OF FAIL means?
The first guy I worked for out of college was an actual maniac, hustle culture guy. He was a professor, had a bunch of rentals, was running a roofing company out of state, doing project management for a mobile home fund, among several other ventures. The dude worked himself to death and made good money, but nothing crazy. The second guy I worked for had only one venture, built an A team around him, and only really worked with 30 hours an week. He made way more money than the first guy I worked for...
We love the idea of working smarter not harder. 👌
It’s so hard to find middle ground. At my last job hustle culture got me 2 raises within a year but then I got cut cause of down sizing. I have never been the same since. Ik working hard helps with the right boss but never feel you’re too good to replace cause the more money you make the more you cost to pay. Now I’m stuck between hustling and being mediocre at my job cause I been low key offered a lead position. Idk if it bs to give me false hope or if it’s the real dead. How should I handle this?
Hustle culture is like a philosophy. Quiet quitting is a tactic
I generally like your posts, and your thoughts on a subject, and I would say I do generally agree with this view here (as you've presented it). I also read your companion post of the topic. However, I think we missed a bit of nuance in this discussion and created a bit of a false dichtomy between the two cultures. I personally hate the term "quiet quitting", not because it's inherently a bad thing, but because it gives this negative connotation to something that thousands of people have already been doing, and been doing for good reasons.
Before continuing, I'd like to state my understanding of the term quiet quitting as I think there is a lot of variation in the term's usage - "People doing the bare minimum to keep their job, and not wanting or accepting any work that is going above or beyond their base job description." Some people may have different definitions, but that has been my understanding.
The missing context for me is the reason why people are wanting to just do the bare minimum. There are many reasons someone could be doing the bare minimum:
1. You work to live. You have outside passions where you spend all your time and energy and still enjoy a rich fulfilling life. You find your deep work and flow in your passions
2. You have a lot going on in your life and need to strike a balance because of unexpected circumstances. You don't plan to do this forever, but in the short term, it's the path forward
3. You've become disenchanted with the working world/maybe life in general, feeling a bit jaded and don't think you should ever put in extra work.
For groups 1 and 2, you or may not think that they should still be able to give more at work, but in "7 1/2 Lessons about the Brain", Lisa Feldman Barrett discusses the idea of a mental budget. Other authors such as Cal Newport reference research that speak of willpower, or energy, but all the ideas are the same. There is a limited amount of work your brain can handle on a given day. Things like work, context switching, distractions, familial obligations, life problems all deplete a bit of that limited energy/capacity/budget. Therefore, someone who truly cares about a different passion is going to want to save every last drop of energy they can to pour it into their passion. Their life would be poorer if they didn't have the energy left over to execute their passion because they used it all at work.
For this video, it sounds like you're talking about people that represent option 3. For those, I 100% agree that it's a negative feedback loop and will hurt their overall quality of life. I agree with your "trying to find some joy in your work" as a solution for that group. As Victor Frankl has said:
“Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms-to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.”
Two people can be in the same cirucumstances and react wildly different based on their mindest. Your mindest is a very powerful thing. In general, people's mindsets in life actually have more to do with their overall life satisfication and happiness that their life circumstances. There are very rich/fortunate people in the world who are absolutely miserable, and very poor/unfortunate people in the world that are far happier because they understand the true things in life that bring them happiness, like love, kindness, compassion, and gratitude. Here's a great post about just that - moretothat.com/the-levers-that-money-cant-pull/.
Anyway, this has been a long-winded way to say I think the nuanced discussion, while more complicated, creates a more complete story. As presented, it has sounded (at least to me), that we need to have a satisfying career to be happy, and that is just one path in the many paths that people can walk. Presenting the nuanced story could help struggling people to realize there are more than 1 way to be happy, and more than 1 approach to satisfication in life. It's all up to the individual :)
I have not listened to the full episode yet, but I think:
1.- you are using "quiet quitting" in a way different from the way in which most people outside of the US do: it is usually understood to mean to do just the necessary work at your company, not to slack so much that somebody else has to do your job.
2.- If one has to do an extra hour one day, fine (as long as it is paid properly); if one has to do an extra hour every day, maybe it is time for the company to hire somebody, at least part-time. It is a problem of the company or of management, not the workers' problem.
3.- Not wanting to work extra (for a company you are not going to inherit) does not leave you without an aim in life: paid work is not all in life and, actually, some of the people I know who work the most are retired: gardening, being with friends, helping out with grandchildren, helping the community...
4.-The fact is that paid work is just something one has to do to be able to have money to live but, unless you are the owner of the company, every extra work one does goes to somebody else's pockets.
5.- There is a very good video of an interview with a guy who used to work at Amazon and got promoted because he improved a process so the company saved a lot of money. He moved to Canada and retired, but he is doing "active retirement", not just staying at home like a plant :-). I think that confusion between paid-work and things-one-can-do-with-life is a very interesting US idea. Why would you base your whole life, personality and everything on your paid work?
6.- As far as I have read, workers' productivity has increased greatly, but that improvement in productivity has not benefitted society in general or the workers' themselves, rather it goes to "investors". Not a good way of incentivizing workers to go above and beyond.
7.- Not wanting to work extra also does not mean that you magically become lazy and make no effort, it means you will focus that effort on something else (family, friends, society in general, people who need your help...).
8.- I think your points are interesting, though, and they have made me think :-).
Thanks for your feedback, I appreciate it - my primary goal with this video is to encourage people to find work that they do enjoy and, if in a toxic situation where emotionally disengaging feels like the only viable solution, to look elsewhere. My interpretation of quiet quitting leans mostly on the "bare minimum" element, but there's probably no standard definition
Hey Katie, I recently found your channel (after Ramit shared a clip from your interview) and have been getting a ton of value. Just finished listening to the travel rewards episode from May and definitely using it to inform my next credit cards!
I really appreciated this clip because it's been quite challenging as a millennial to see many of my friends leave my company (or other places) on similar grounds to the "quiet quitting" movement. I've often found it hard to reconcile their perspectives and definitely didn't want to disregard them in case they saw something I didn't. But essentially, in trying to think for myself and in reasoning from first principles, I arrived at a very similar conclusion to what you presented here. That's why I love this clip so much; because you very eloquently highlighted the importance of being wary of the unhealthy aspects of both extremes while highlighting the dangers of blindly following the quiet-quitting movement.
It's almost like "the middle path" concept from Buddhism applies here; the middle ground between attachment (to work) and aversion (to work)".
Fail is the opposite of work. Let that sink in. Attempt doesn’t mean work because attempt FAIL GENIUS.
I've been binge watching your videos and listening to your podcasts a TON over the last two weeks or so now, and just want to say thank you for so much QUALITY advice. I am a in my very early 20's and work about 30 hours a week an accountant while finishing my bachelors which obviously means I love all the numbers that you talk about. Now i've watched alot of the retirement videos you have and living in Texas, what account(s) would you recommend the best as I am starting to put money aside for my retirement? Again thank you so very much for the great content!!
This is so kind, thank you!! (And congratulations on finishing your Bachelors!) Hmm, Texas is an interesting one since you don't pay any state income tax - so in your working years, I'd definitely try to shovel as much of that "extra income" into retirement accounts like the 401(k) and IRAs and taxable investing accounts. Since withdrawals from retirement accounts aren't taxed and SSI isn't taxed, you may be more inclined to go for the Roth 401(k) if you plan to retire there. :)
@@MoneywithKatie Thank you so much!!
I watched this video and read your piece on Hustle Culture and Quiet Quitting. I agree mostly with your general points; however, the thing that creates these two toxic cultures is the business's lack of loyalty or lack of treating employees like human beings. If you have worked at a job for 5 years and given your best (within reason), there's an expectation to have humanity.
But instead you walk into work at 8am. The supervisor walks you to your boss's office. The boss says not one word while HR is telling you to please sign these severance papers. You walk back to your desk with your supervisor to grab your stuff. Then the supervisor walks you out of the building by 8:20am. And there was no warning on this possible layoff the day before. You realize that for the last 6 months you were training a fresh out of college kid to be your replacement! This is why people rightfully feel violated by work culture in general.
Of course, I think fixing work is a big piece of this; the full episode digs into ESOPs and granting employees equity and ownership stakes, which I think plays a big role in feeling as though you benefit from your work