Ancient CNC Machine VS. Fusion 360
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- Опубліковано 1 лют 2024
- I attempt to import and run a modern program from fusion 360 into this dinosaur of a CNC Machine. Can i do it?
Skull Cap
www.prestigemanufacturing.net...
DNC Box
amzn.to/4bj9Aqv
Bt-40 Tool Holders
amzn.to/4bduurc - Наука та технологія
For those old machines, you need to setup transmit delay of 10 to 50 ms per line, if you want to use tape to run programs, or it will overfill buffer.
Thanks for the info. I’ll try that!
Really nice to see a 35 year old machine back up and running, kinda like rescuing an old dog from a shelter lol.
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Lol just go to a couple shops on the East Coast. One of the companies I work with are still using Bandits for control on production machines, as well as several machines from the 80s just like this one (Hardinge, Fadal, etc.). A lot of companies still use their original CNC machines, right next to their brand new Haas and DMG Moris and such.
That being said, it is really cool to see old machines renovated and used. They are still great for producing all sorts of parts.
I owned and ran several of these for 20 years. When you first power up and send the machine home, zero out xyz on the universal position page by hitting x then the org button, y org then z org. Then pick up your part zero and those will be your g54 numbers. It’s easier on those machines to set tool lengths from z home position. Send z home, make sure your g54 has 0 in the z position, then hit the measurement button to turn the green light on. Bring your tool to the top of the part, then on the offset page cursor to the correct tool number and hit the write button, it will overwrite the offset with the length from machine zero and send the z axis home.
32:30 whew the pucker factor when the '7' didn't register on the calculator. For a second I thought you were going to dive 0.5" into the part instantly.
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lol same
Yes, I thought that's going to be interesting . I was shouting at the screen, but he wasn't listening.
@@billdoodson4232me too 😂
Man this is cool i love older machines manual and cnc they just look so more tough plus its awesome to see what we can do to push these old machines
been machining manual/cnc for over 7 years but appreciate the in depth detail about everything you do, very insightful, still learning more every day
Thanks for the support I really appreciate it 🙏
Really appreciate the content . I doubt many people fully appreciate what you need to know to do what you do . A huge skill set right there - well done
Thanks I really appreciate it 🙏
I love that Titan box, very simple but very powerful. It has 2 usb inputs, so usually you use a usb stick to transfer between your pc and the titan. You can however get a WiFi usb stick, then you don’t even need to move the memory stick. Just plop your G code file into the shared folder and it appears at the titan!
What a trip down memory lane! I remember setting up HP Unix workstations for the CAD guys, and then building a cheap beige box PC with Linux and multi-port serial cards to do the drip-feeds to all the CNC gear in a shop. While these old controllers might go faster than 9600 baud, they may not be reliable above that speed. Since G-code has no checksums, serial line noise cannot be detected by the receiver and in worst case, can lead to a machine crash ... so going faster is not worth the risk.
Yasnacs are notoriously picky about rs 232 cummunications. They dont like being run above 4800 baud. You load the programs from edit. O-9999 will allow you to download one or multiple programs. You set parameter 6005 to the height of your touch off block. Fixture offsets are in the setting numbers, you set the fixture offset from MDI with G10. These are not ancient machines, they just are not smart phones. The ,manuals explain the operation of the control very well. That Matsurra will still be making parts when a Haas has become a beer can....Those machines have POWER, you program them differently, you use bigger cutters and take big cuts. They can be programmed using adaptive clearing strategies, but they run out of memory quick, 128k was max, most had 32k. That will push a 4" face mill 3/8 deep thru 4140 without wincing, and it will do it quietly. Using macro and smart programming will go a long way. It aint all about speed, anyone can use a cam system, not everyone did the time to be a toolmaker. Thats a beast, hardly ancient.
Thanks for the info!!
Yes g code and use sub prg call with loops L# way to prg and keep short just graduated vocational machine trades in high school in 1988 and lucky have teacher from industry had years machining to qualify him for teaching job and he saw new cnc cad cam was going to take off in those years and he was correct was taught manually than with cnc you knew what you needed be done had to figure out g code to do now what use to do manualy but now g code is like second to me we would figure new ways to machine using g code we would save as a generic prg once ran like wanted we copy to new prg and now only need edit small amount usally new tool speed and feeds and x y and z and your now running just be sure math correct and pick off usally best to try match print on pic off then prg with tool comp can use print # s and use sub prg call to loop if have stock to remove or spring pass to hold size as tool gets dull will push away so before comping tool dia be sure spring pass a time or two or may take off to much stock will undercut so be sure work way to size up using tool dia comp but works great only way to go now most manual machines not in modern tool shops if are used for just simple stuff
Very good job sir. No crashes. Single block and a 6in scale are your best friends while setting up. Program X and Y in the stock center, add .050" to the X and Y stock width to help avoiding the monster first cut. I'm actively trying to not spew forth all the tips, hints and shortcuts I've encountered in my career. I look forward to your next vid.
Thanks man
I watch stuff like this for entertainment. One thing that caught my attention is that you are the first machinist to wear gloves while working that i have ever seen.
I love machining, but I hate getting my hands dirty lol
Figuring out, proofing, optimizing the programs for CNC machines is something I enjoy quite a bit. I'm considered as CNC opetator and setup'er, but I also do quite some programming work as a unofficial program QC fixing up head programmer mistakes, missed features (no chamfer/too deep chamfer/right feeds for my favourite end mills)
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Awesome. I another life I would have been a capable machinist. Maybe one day I could take a pill and live one. I also love seeing beautiful machines saved instead of being discarded. Great videos.
Thank you 🙏
That was indeed a huge success! I was holding my breath on the start of the program, but no endmills broken, and amazing first chips on the left side of the part. I am loving your videos, I feel like I am the person going through the same issues.
Thanks for the support
Thanks for the support
Really cool shop and content. Love the channel. Amazing how technology really has not changed. It's all the same under the hood as it was back in the late 80's and earlier. Awesome looking machine.
Thanks for the support man. I really appreciate it! It literally is all the same
@@prestigemanufacturing2611 I remember leaving a comment a few videos back with the RS232 about working at the internet service providers back in the early 90's. Nothing has changed. Just the application layers have changed and they basically making things idiot proof these days it seems. Looking forward to the next video drop. Cheers
@@prestigemanufacturing2611all the same just smarter controllers for the next generation of dumber programmers.
Interesting seeing a Yasnac control again. My first CNC lathe was a Miyano ENC-3BC that had one. They also came with Fanuc however I got a better deal on the Yasnac. Never had any problems with it. Fusion is awesome. Todays high speed machining is really something compared to those good ole days 😂
Awesome!
i can't speak for anyone else, but i love the "will it run" videos. thank you for sharing these machines with us. your channel is totally underrated.
Thank you very much!
O-9999 Erase will clear out all programs. I just bought a 1990 Cincinnati sabre 750. It's been sitting in a garage for the last 5 years. When running it was only a prototype machine. Should be a fun project. So glad I found this video for the DNC communications.
Our main mill up until this year has been a 91 Leblond Makino FNC-60. It drip feeds pretty well with F360 programs. Got a 2011 Hyundai Wia F500 this year and that sucker is a huge difference.
I bet the new one rolls out?
super love these videos. Let me know if you ever need some fun models to test these beasts with.
Thanks! Will do!
Matsuura machines are well built, I have seen early 90's machines running in shops still holding decent tolerances. I haven't' watched the whole video yet but I'll wager it's going to work fine.
Thanks for the support 🙏
Maybe try a 3d contour and see what kind of feedrates you might be able to run with keeping a few lines of buffer.
I definitely will !
Those chips are beautiful I definitely didn’t expect that one
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Can you set xon/xoff or hardware handshaking on the machine and also tell your loader box to do that as well?
Great video. I am currently trying to get one of mc560v running. I'm getting spindle servo alarm and servo is showing fault 3. Any ideas or connections who might be able to help?
One company I worked for had a CNC multitool punch dating from 1988. Only 5 were ever made.
When a firm that owned one of the others d3cid3d to upgrade, my boss bought their old CNC centre for a spare.
The control board on the original machine packed-up, so they rigged up the 2nd machine to discover the board on that was also faul5y. Their solution eas to 0ay a specialist controls company to fit a new control system to the old machine. It cost them £25,000 but gave them the ability to load a drawing straight from their CAD program and run it.
The control company end3d-up buying the spare machine and doing the same to it.
Nice!
Before you drop the baud make sure you know which way it's complaining: It could mean that it's not getting fed fast enough (lots of tiny G moves in modern gcode) rather than getting fed too fast. 9600 baud isn't crazy for 1989 tech. Source: Used tech in 1989
Thanks for the info. I’ll check it out 🙏
Wow .... Seeing All This it takes me back to 'My Youth' .... I was born in 1951, so that makes me 72 Plus .... :-) :-) :-) When I did my apprenticeship back in Cape Town in the 70's we had a Massive Workshop ( Metal Box ) .... There were some Tape Machines .... They were 'De Vlieg' Mills, BIG ones .... !!!!! I tell you what , Just drop that "Matsura" in a Small 'Courier Bag' and sent it to me here in New Zealand... I am a Toolamker / CNC Machinist and would love to have a 'Play' with it ..... :-) :-) :-) Thanks for your Super Interesting vidclips .... Best to You and Yours from ChCH, NZ
Write all the way on Cape Town? That’s awesome!
@@prestigemanufacturing2611 Yes, Originally from Cape Town ZA, but we moved to Christcurch, New Zealand in 1996 .... Stayed in the CNC/Toolmaking Game untill I retired about 5 years ago, but still 'Keep my Hand in' when I periodically get called in to Help-Out.... Trying to find GOOD 'Engineers' these days, is Almost Impossible ..... :-) :-) :-) 'Intuative Engineers' are even more difficult to find .... :-) :-) :-) Cheers .... Thanks for the reply ... :-) :-) :-)
@@kiweekeithso true and so much of the new generation is not interested in how the stuff they use is made or figuring out how to make it profitable to manufacture.
I got 20 of these Kurt vices.... Wish I could say that!
I’ve taken them off machines over the years.
Oh, man, back in The Day (1986), I spent a year as dogsbody in a machine shop, and being a computer geek, was gob-smacked at the old-school terminals and paper-tape they were using. Enter a shiny Atari 520ST, floppy disks, and a serial cable….
The screen is only flickering on the video and is probably super clear in person right?
On my haas VFO, it seems like the RS232 port is turned off, I have had other people with a lot of experience wondering if there is some hidden parameter turned off, yes I would like a video on the tumbler and looking forward to another video on the press brake. With what you just did on the machine would let someone interested in machining get started without any DEBT.
Thanks 🙏
Thanks for showing how things really work and don't make a WWF like show out of it, like some other cannels.
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I Used one like this when I was an apprentice, crazy powerfull one of our machines ran into its hard stop and pulled out X axis ballscrew spindelnut.
We ran these machines with EdgeCam, so it´s not a problem running long programes.
The most annoying thing with them is the way the Z offset is made.
it´s Z 0 on the table and you type the distance from the table to the top of the work.
And you can´t see the absolute Z value for the tool in the spindel.
Ah.. that’s what I was wondering about the tool offset. Thanks !
Use g43 h# set tip tool to work cordinate say g54 once tool leghth proven touch top part with tip tool set g54 the length tool then move tool off part to side and move z up say to tool change level go to mdi give g54 g43h1 z2.00 f100. , moo hit cylcle start wil now pick up tool length and move to z2.0 and moo will stop but now use 2.0 set up block move tool over part be sure not move z but can now check your tool to work g54 z offsett to be sure set correctly good way to check tool offsetts before running prgs to be sure tools set correctly
Use smoothing and it will really shrink your program size.
you in USA or Canada? That's a HUGE shop, it could be a warehouse. Did you build it yourself on land you own, or renting it?
I’m in the USA. I’m renting for now. It’s not cheap 😂
Love your videos.
Thank you!
Do you KNOW what arc filtering is? cnc prg of 7540 lines can be boiled down to 534 lines it is good for older machines .. a new machine is fast enough to eat 7540 but the old one coughs and stops
All this takes is a post processor. Fusion, alphacam, mastercam ect ect can all program any age cnc machine with the right post processor.
if it over travelled when it went up the Z offset could be wrong. The retract distance + offset was shooting the spindle through the roof.
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Can you set a fixture offset to work off of instead of the machine coordinates? I ran mostly Autocon controllers for many years and just set an “E” value for the offsets so that the numbers on the controller make more sense and you can judge your sizes/distances more easily. Any way I love the videos!! Keep up the great content!!
Thanks for the advice 🙏
You should be able to run the bt40 in a cat40 spindle, the taper is the same, just the thread on the pull stud is different, I think - look it up
I’ll try that!
The baud rate here is critical.. I image given that I was using a Commodore 64 in that time frame that 9600 is way way to quick. Honestly you won't notice a significant difference because the machine is processing line by line in the code and smoother is better than errors.
I think I’m going to drop it to 4800 and see what happens
I have no idea what any of this is. But I enjoy watching it nonetheless.
Thanks for the support 🙏🙏
I'm pretty sure cat40 and bt40 same taper so as long as the pull stud is correct you can put the tool holder in manually normally the issue is the tool changer I know with fadal you can switch just have to reset the tool changer height.
Yup, we have two CT40 holders that we use on our machine (the rest are BT40), just need to use a shorter stud in order to pull the holder fully in to contact with the taper. And yes you need to load them manually, while the plastic holder in the tool changer does catch them somewhat it is definitely not secure to use it that way.
Really? I have to try that!!
Thanks for the advice. I’m going to try it!
The drive dogs are somewhat different too usually… just be aware of that.
As long as you feed the prg @ the correct board rate it will run no problem the code has not changed just the speed it’s processed Ps i wrote this before watching the vid
Thanks for the info 💯
Приветствую, любой старый станок подвергается легко модернизации... И основная модернизация не в мех части па элетро... Так как современные системы это апэ высоко скоростную обработку где важную роль имеет просчет чпу на много кадров вперед.для оптимизации тех процеса.
Thanks for the info 🙏
I did it for my 86" Bridgeport series one. so im sure you can
Nice
Prefer this Mill over the Fadals you've had ?
I personally like fadals over everything 🤷🏻♂️
When you use your height setting tool, you are forgetting to add its height to the offset. Add the two or three inches to your total measurement. That will set the tool to zero above the table.
I always just set my zero to the zero on the gauge because it will be the same zero height across all tools and I won’t have to add anything to the numbers. That way it cuts out the risk of forgetting to add 2” and possibility of crashing a tool.
I set my tools to zero at the table and also set my Haimer to zero at the table. You can then enter the Haimer as a "tool" with the correct offset in the controller. When you set the zero on the material with the Haimer, the reading will be the correct zero without any further calculation. To each their own...
I would beleave it is a test set up. It makes sence.
Definitely
Does the MX3 use a pre-set Z retract height that isn't a modal code? It seems like it's just using a wrong Z retract height on those profiling retracts
Update - nevermind you found it
😂
I should send you one of my Solidworks files and some aluminum billet and some coin for your time.
That could be dope!
Have you decided on which one to sell?
Not yet. Maybe both?
I'm more interested in what it takes to modernize an old CNC.
You should watch out measuring a 3/8 endmill and entering .376. That means you have some error in your calipers.
They are cheap calipers for sure
@@prestigemanufacturing2611 from machinist to machinist, learn the error in your measuring tools and you can still hold tolerance with cheap stuff. IMO never measure an endmill unless you do regrinds which I also think no one should do. Drills are the only thing I ever find myself needing to measure.
I have a Matsuura MC-1000V (Fanuc 15M) circa 1991. I've been using Fusion 360 without any real issues. If you'd like my heavily modified Fanuc 15M postprocessor let me know.
I’ll defiantly let you know. Thanks 🙏
How about a video on how & where you get these awesome deals?
The internet… auctions happen every day, otherwise browse listings not that hard.
im 30 seconds into the video, so (being an old cnc machinist) my guess is you will need to learn a lot of the original code from the old machine, like tool change, offsets, possibly spindle start\ speed\ feed etc, and incorprorate that around the f360 tool path codes.
Thanks for the info 🙏
@@prestigemanufacturing2611 it wasnt meant to be info as such, just me thinking out loud totally having a guess! And i skipped to the end of the video, i think i was right!
If the machine is doing weird stuff. It can be the transfer cable combined with a mobile phone. We ofren have this "issue" on older haas etc. And always Z- or rapidly trying to knock over the 4th axis..
(That's why I will NEVER try a robot "carusel" with a seat... Electronic can do weird shit)
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Just review your video at 32:30, you were very close but you made a mistake while making the maths with your smartphone. You mistyped the number 14.w instead of 14,7 and got the wrong Z offset.
Sorry, i meant 14.2xxx instead of 14.7xxx , just see the values on the smartphone screen in your video.
Very likely this is the reason why Z went half an inch more...
Ahh thanks. I’m going to try again soon!
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Matsuura 760 was a great machine.
Looking at just pulling old controller and going with masso. Problem solved ;) guess we'll see. Moumental wiring task ahead.
What's up bud, just subscribed to your Channel I too am trying to build my channel and you are so right when you say it's hard to make theses videos and work a job too. So much work,, but keep up the keepin and hopefully one day we have a nice fan base on our channels! 💪👍
Thanks for the support man. Stay with it!
4600, what is this 4600, it's 4800, come on :) (at least that is my assumption based on modems back in the day)
Looks like it was a good buy, definately interesting seeing something old running new code.
Yea I got my numbers mixed up.
BROOO we need new videooooo
I'm running fusion 360 into a mid 1990's FANUC M12. With 3d parts I got a lot of shudder from 9600baud not transferring the data fast enough. I went through the post and took out all the N numbers, the leading and trailing zeros and made it only output addresses that are changed in that line. Basically, reduced the amount of data being transferred. The other thing I did, because I'm running wood only in that machine, is I made it only output three places after the decimal instead of four. I had to go into the parameters of the machine and increase the allowable arc errors for it to run, but I got it to work.
You can see it working for a few seconds here: ua-cam.com/video/hWhKQNYOUnw/v-deo.html
Nice!
Why don't it gauld up tool
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matsuuras are great i run a 1984 MC 760 v2
i also fell victim to not knowing that the collects snap into the nut.
😂😂
you missed the 7 on the calculator
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New video????
I have one dropping this Friday at 3:00 PM💣
tape mode is really importent my old mashine has only 135kB of Programm Memory 😂
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Ancient?
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You’re pretty new at this I see. If I can give a word of advice? Learn your G and M. It will save you a lot of time and money for these old machinist.
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There's nothing modern in terms of code coming out of F360. It's the same ASCII Text we've been using for years. Matsuura's are easy to post code to. You can use a BTR or go through the RS232. MX3's were largely Fanuc compatible. Nothing special here.
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there's no such thing as an ancient cnc
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Modern code? nothing changed. I don't get your point. The very first public display of NC was at IMTS. They drip fed 6 machines from a single computer on navy pier... the machines you are try to drip feed to were doing it when they were new. I don't see what difference your "modern code" makes. You're not doing anything special or new. thank you for your videos, I do enjoy them.
Thanks for the support 🙏
I would classify it as modern dynamic tool paths. Improvements in maintaining high MRR is what makes the diference.
"modern" meaning dynamic tools paths. Most older controllers can't handle the amount of code fast enough to move the machine at the feed rates the program calls.
@@KurtM558yeah the toolpaths and the programming got a whole lot better than 20 years ago when I was a apprentice and did CNC work for sure.
@@mattcook544Right the new cam software makes everything into line segments. Which can cause buffer errors drip feeding and shuddering. The shuddering is from the machine starting and stopping after each line of g-code.
inch/min 🤡
You so you paid 350.00 and you want several thousand.
Yup. Bills don’t get paid by giving stuff away for free. My time and knowledge is worth something, don’t you think? Do you work for free?
@@prestigemanufacturing2611 I agree!! you should get what the market would bear. Your selling price should have no accordance to your purchase price. I'm glad you got a good deal and the next guy will get a good deal as a fair machine at a fair price, not to mention a good old machine back in service!
@@yelims20 🙏🙏🙏
@@prestigemanufacturing2611 I do the same thing . Some people don't understand the markup? It's good you can get them cheap. Advertising that It never helped me? I make people think I am losing money?
Fusion 360 works perfectly on my 37 year old Bridgeport Interact 4 with a Heidenhain TNC155 control, helps that Heidenhain supply as a free download a server to allow seamless drip feed too, pity FANUC doesn't
Nice!
why dude why point is to have new safe beter machine not that dinosaur's
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Safe? lol.