People calling themselves "skilled but unlucky" will always be funny to me. In that case, I'd still rather team with a higher MMR player because I'd rather have a luckier teammate. Go figure out how to get luckier.
You can be skilled but unlucky in a mogi. But on a larger scale the luck ‘cancels out’ and skill is what seperates the players; that is why over all the mogis you do mmr is a good indicator of skill.
Halfway through the video but this is a really well said rant. Alot of the points brought up in this video is a big reason why I try to avoid playing lounge and I think 6v6 is a better way of determining someone's skill. You were my tm8 in my 1st ever experience of playing Room 1 and even though we lost, you were incredibly chill to communicate with in dms and I'm glad I had you as my tm8.
Really well made video. I've been driven away from lounge a lot because of how much of a needlessly unpleasant experience it can be, so it's great to see a discussion about this.
I've experienced a paradox that's very relevant to this video. Back when I played 8d I used to care a lot about my placements, and as a result I spent too much time focusing on what was mentioned in the video. I didn't have much time to spend in lounge; by the time I joined lounge I had given up that mentality and went with whatever the funny number said. In MKT however I didn't expect much of myself. Multiplayer had just came out and I didn't have much experience so I wasn't expecting myself to place high. On only MKC's second MKT FFA I had a mickey mouse semifinals run similar to the good luck streak mentioned in the video. There were people eliminated in quarterfinals who deserved the 8th semifinals spot much more than I did, but because I had a long string of good luck I made a mickey mouse semifinals appearance. I didn't do well in semifinals of course since I had very little experience so I was practically a bronze player at the time. People in my room were essentially fighting to not get bottom 3. When I gave up on 8d and became more active in August that year I saw rapid improvement; I went on to start with a 22-2 in lounge. This eventually turned into getting into a team that got D1 runner-up, then bracket tournament podiums, then D2 champions, and even WC and D1 champions. Earlier in that same year I reached platinum in the MKT lounge, something I had wished I could get in 8d lounge within 200 events. I even got top 4 in MKC's 6th MKT FFA, which I was stoked about of course. The above paragraph only happened because I didn't care about my placement due to my lack of prior experience. I wanted to improve and become part of the top players, and I didn't like how my time in 8d was so I eventually stopped playing 8d altogether to go all-in on MKT, a game I actually enjoyed. Looking back, i wonder if I could've had the same path in 8d had I not cared, but then again with the relative ages of the games at the time (3 years 8d vs. 0 year MKT) maybe that's why I was able to get into high div in MKT much easier. Long story short, I played better when I didn't care, and I played worse when I cared. That still applies to me today I feel.
That's actually super valid. Reminds me of a player from my region in Smash who essentially cut out a bad habit that he knew was bad, but fell back on. His results at first took a major step back, but he stuck with it and surpassed where he was at my a lot. He went from being a PR player to a threat at national tournaments, so there was a lot to lose but it was Def for the best. Feels a lot like TTing over queueing sometimes.
I haven't played competitive in like over a year but this video gave me some nostalgic memories I must say and in relation to the video, yeah man I absolutley agree, MMR is a rather silly way to determine skill, I remember I went from bronze in like season 8 (I think) to gold 1 just by leaving the server and coming back without playing a single match in just like a year or 2. In reality I've always prefered practicing playing 6v6 in whatever team I was on in the time, I've always been a clan hopper but mainly because I like meeting new people and stuff and making new friends, that's also a thing that I don't like about the current culture of MK8D competitive, as I've always felt judged for it but that's just probably only me who feels that way. I also don't like how you always have to be put with "players of a similar skill level" back when I stopped playing I felt like I was at the peak of my game but other interests got in the way which is what made me leave, but the point I'm trying to make is that I only got good enough to play in teams like Mushroom team or Resemblance 2 by always trying to face new better players than me, that's how I improved, and I don't feel like lounge really helps me in that regard. of course there's always unranked but most people don't seem to care about that it would seem. That's my 2 cents on the matter, great video, loved it, if I ever get back to competitive Mario Kart I hope to see those ideas you've been bouncing around be implemented, having a lounge that's actually fun to play and is of actually good practice to become not only a better individual player but a better team player, then I'd probably play it regularly, but as it stands even when I was in my prime I varely touched lounge, I found it way more productive, fun and a better way to learn to do 6v6 friendlies. That's were the real shit's at.
The whole idea of never getting to play out of your range is overlooked. I miss the pre Japan lounge mainly because before all the new players I could still play non sq matches with my friends. Now there's too many players between many of us in our skill levels now.
I just stopped playing this game all together in terms of playing it constantly online and in general the last time I ever touched this game was when I was playing in Lan mode with a friend like 2 weeks ago and will probably never touch the game again
This video was amazing man! I'm glad you made this video to push out the darkness hiding in secret with this community 🙏. Let's hope all of us can work together towards a fulfilling environment and end goal for the future of this game and community ❤
Very interesting video, as someone who used to play a lot of Lounge, even before joining a team, I'm glad I managed to control myself a bit more, but I still think I don't have the mental and the correct mindset to make it beneficial for me. Every time I manage to take a little break I'm afraid of "intoxicating" myself with mogis. What you said about dodging more shock by using the main color Yoshis is funny to me because as a Peach player, I felt like everyone made so I would never dodge a shock no matter what. And since I've switched to Yoshi/Birdo, I feel less targeted.
As a lounge player, i gotta say this video is such a wake up call to me. Like, as of now and before as an iron 2 to bronze 1 player, ive always just got angry and upset for each bad mogi ive had, always being toxic and just miserable. And yeah, i can agree how disorganized the system is, days of mine have been ruined because of lounge and because of the fact that i cant get better or that ive reached a certain threshold of skill to where i think i personally cant get better. And as of right now im trying to reach bronze 2 and get better as of there but the 1st time ive reached it, it was just because i was super lucky and a win streak carried me there. Over the weeks ive been trying to improve my mental and not crash out over a shitty mogi and take breaks but at the same time I realized how badly lounge has affected my mental health as a whole. I eventually got into a 6v6 team format and got myself into a team and ever since then ive felt alot more happier than compared to my time spent in lounge. I still do lounge yes, but im not so crazy over mmr than i used to be and i think that's an improvement even if its small. Phenomenal video and i hope i can become a better person and mk8dx player. :) ❤
you know, clearly i have taken a little too much stock in this system. i appreciate you posting this video. ive been meaning to rethink the way i do things, and you only further cemented that, so thanks mate. ive always been a numbers guy, it seems i was in the wrong/in denial, because i always thought "oh big number/more skill, thanks for opening my eyes. im not even being dramatic here, i do get a little TOO pissed off when i do this because of funny enough, the EXACT reasons you listed. "i blame x for y, etc" yes i know its a me issue, yes im trying to get over it.
26:54 Not disagreeing with anything else that's been said but I think ego is inseparable from competition of any variety. You play a game because you love it, you play competitively to prove to others & yourself how good you are. Doesn't mean the ranking system can't be improved but ego will always be at the core of competitiveness.
Wanted to circle back to this one because it's a good comment. I agree with the fact that this is a fact of life. But the MMR system combined with it brings out some bad practices I would say, and that's the root of my point. In the TCR Proposal I actually discuss using player ego in a way that is actually productive. Wanting to be ranked highly in a circuit could be a way to keep players from behaviors we don't want to see, like quitting tournaments, or we could use the ego as a way to encourage people to help their teammates even, if it leads to them winning more and ranking up. As it stands, the lounge and ego match to create addictive behavior I would argue, because players are never forced to accept results, which leads to them not really addressing their issues. There is always an assumption that the player is just unlucky and that the next match will prove it to be untrue.
@@HDRookie "But the MMR system combined with it brings out some bad practices I would say, and that's the root of my point." Oh yeah I wasn't arguing against that, I just wasn't sure based on how 26:54 sounded if you thought ego in competitive play was problematic in of itself, but I see what you're saying. Definitely agree a format that reduces toxicity would be great (ego / competition isn't an excuse for being toxic ofc) & a circuit has additional benefits like explicit events which matter (instead of always having to play well & ego being on the line, you just need to train and be in top shape for specific events, overall less draining) and would make for more exciting content for streamers (similar to how melee players stream slippi but important tournaments get even more attention). All that said, even with an accurate ranking system I expect people to struggle with handling luck in competitive play, mainly because it isn't always clear when something actually IS bad luck or not. If I know my luck is just terrible I can laugh at it, but in MK I have to question "was that bad luck or would a better player have done something differently? Is there a solution I'm not seeing?" I'm not sure if this is the common sentiment for how luck in MK frustrates people, but at least from my pov this is how it does.
Excellent video! I especially love how you tied it into how so many (myself included) engage too much in activities that don't challenge us to do anything hard. That is a message we all desperately need to internalize and an issue we must fix!
Love hearing the support for 6v6 and the LAN scene. For me at least the idea of having a few tournaments spread out throughout the year and having time to improve between them would be something I'd totally do as it's kinda what I do for LANs now. I feel like having tournaments like this would also bring out the better side of the community because it would also be something for players to look forward to and get excited about rather than something people would chain 4 events in a row or "rage chaining". Just seems like having something people can look forward to and prepare specifically for will have a more positive outcome rather than lounge.
I think part of the ego side of things (I've been there) is that we believe that the difference between ranks isn't that big and that we can surpass it when we play enough mogis. However, the gap is way bigger than we think and we all need slices of humble pie. The same gap exists for people who play lounge and people who only play as a party game. So like you said, we're not casual which makes us good at the game. But we're not elite either. Disclaimer, I say we but I only used to do lounge. I'm retired from lounge now and transferring my drive to growing my business, which has been way more fulfilling.
Thought this was a very interesting video overall. I love playing lounge and I think it's a blast, but I also just chill around 0-1k MMR and am usually in the last room. Although even so far down, I see a lot of what you are talking about and can only imagine how much worse player behavior gets the higher up the MMR you go. I love playing 3v3s and 4v4s because I find them more fun and enjoyable to help my teammates and to try and play around them. It's funny, often times in the last room there will be a push for FFA specifically because the ability of your teammate can vary so much and people want to climb to a higher level.
Oddly, the server is probably healthiest at the lower level. There is enough room to grow I'd say that nobody can really blame RNG for misfortune, and I think the more casual lounge players are probably playing for the right reasons. 3v3 and 4v4 are fun formats for sure, I hope you continue to enjoy.
I used to play lounge a few years back but I stopped played lounge in this game simply because it got too toxic for me and I was so much more competitive when I was younger and got upset so easily back then. As well I’m primarily an Mk7 player and 8DX is meant to be my more casual game to play compared to 7. Unironically leaving lounge helped me grow a lot as a person and has helped me take the game less seriously than I used to. I could probably come back to lounge with my refreshed mindset and handle it a bit better. I do think MMR isn’t an accurate representation of a player. I TT 8DX quite a bit (albeit more casually since 8DX is more my casual game to play. I do TT some tracks at a high level like dBP 150, dHC 150, and RR 150) and I have general skill with driving, however I lack skill in item usage. It doesn’t mean I’m a good or bad player, I just excel in certain areas of the game while I fall behind in others. Overall a very well made video!
great video. I recently really got into mk8dx and been playing a lot of online and haven't tried lounge yet. I didn't know it was as serious at it seems to be haha
I'm someone that has nothing to do with the competitive community of this game, lounge or whatever, but watching this video all I could think was "This problem isn't exclusive to MK8D at all lmao" Like don't get me wrong this video is still excellent and you illustrated your points in an amazing way WHILE still offering up good solutions, but this kind of problem extends far past Mario Kart and goes into a lot of other games (The entire first half of the video reminded me a bit too well of the Splatoon community, one I'm actually involved in) As long as there's a ranking system like the MMR, there will be players like this. So many keep forcing themselves to play a game that they clearly don't enjoy anymore JUST for the sake of getting those extra points, while getting extremely angry at any minor loss, and like you said they'd rather blame the game than look at themselves, without even looking back and even thinking that there's a bigger issue. I think the problem is beyond a "This makes the community send a bad message" and more of a proper mental problem that could spiral really badly for individual players But again, this is far from a Mario Kart only problem, and has kinda been an internet mindset for years. I highly doubt anything's gonna change unfortunately Glad to see people like you are willing to bring it up to the public though! The more this stuff is talked about the better :)
I agree that this system could be replicated anywhere. This video mainly was supposed to act as like, a call out to the top players about how important it truly is. There will always be toxic players trying to climb any solo queue offered, but we don't have to place our #1 priorities in said systems, I suppose.
just finished. amazing video. thought i'd draw a parallel with pokemon tcg pocket's competitive scene no ranked mode (ie no lounge mmr system). competitive is defined by the community tournaments. this environment promotes innovation and player improvement and competition. edit: i hope the bright future you propose can come to fruition for mk lounge
I feel as if Pokemon tournaments (non TGC) in general are fun precisely because new strategies can appear for the first time on the biggest stage as well. They're unleashed when there's likely to be no time to counter them.
Interesting to say the least, but I feel like this is the case for every video games that has a rank rating. personally I believe you truly deserve a rank when you are not afraid to queue in it.
It's true of all systems like lounge, but the way around it is through adopting a system that is seen as more prestigious. I'd argue that a circuit would be the better way to actually rank players, because it would put players onto the same playing field (same # of events, no recency bias manipulation). The other benefit of this is simply having higher stakes matches that are more streamable/castable.
As of through COVID-19 when lounge took great opportunities to grow its community, like a lot of online communities at that time, it was also the downfall of the skill on lounge. More players joining lounge for a challenge and to improve because it was the unofficial competitive MK8D scene as advertised. More players being encouraged to train via time trials, team 6v6s (Wars), worldwides & regionals, speedruns, and most importantly, grinding mogis. Overtime the balance of skill is just gonna even out and it's gonna come down to luck, and the increased masses of the lounge community clearly won't help that if you're trying to go up in the ranks. Lounge for MK8D is dead in my opinion due to this outlook which I have and have held up till now, and is why I quit a while back alongside knowing it was a waste of my time and damaging my health when it clearly wasn't worth it. My lesson from this is that there's more to life that can be cherished than lounge, especially when you've done it enough to know that you are wasting your time and have stated it outright because of pure emotion. Call it catharsis if you want. Point is, there's a truth in that of the pain, ironic or not. If you want out, you only need open your mind to the chance. It's always a choice. ♥ Sorry if this has sounded corny and/or cringe, just stating my experience and what has held objective through that of lounge irregardless if it's me stating it. 😂 Yes it's MY experience, and yes that's subjective when I state it, but it doesn't differentiate from what happened. I'm just here to accurately point it out as this is my comment on the whole situation. Alright, I'm going to stop yapping now. This is definitely a good video though. States a lot of what I've witnessed already as an old lounge user. Very insightful. 👍
I would say there's a lot of skill involved in lounge still, but again, it's not a full diet. There's more skills out there that lounge doesn't exactly test or train as consistently.
@@HDRookie Yeah. My point still stands though because it's not to say that there isn't skill, but to say that the skill on lounge has been balancing out. Of course as a new variety of players join the lounge scene, this adds more variety and brings back more opportunity to use said skill where you're not relying on rng as much, giving you the advantage in this state, but from my experience, I haven't witnessed a lot of that. I didn't grind lounge though because I was dissatisfied simply put. That said prior though, having new players join lounge and grind hard enough themselves both by playing mogis and other factors included tend to once again balance out the skill, but in bigger numbers more likely than not which doesn't help overall. However, I have noticed other old lounge players not play lounge as often now for similar reasons, so again it's a reciprocal process in the sense that by having too much of one side, is eventually going to dim out the other side and repeat the cycle where you have new players join and old players become less frequent or just straight up quit. That said though, I'm still not too certain I would apply this process to lounge given the state and amount of addicts who play lounge religiously in hopes of gaining mmr and because they're in their own heads which I personally see as objectively pathetic within this given context that is addiction specifically. This is only due to the fact that I haven't actually played in several months so I haven't been on scene to see how many of the people I still remember are playing lounge and how frequently, outside of watchin' others. Side note: I think a good video idea which could discuss and bring more light on this topic specifically is to compare lounge in 2021 or before to its other years such as now (2024) for example, and point out the differences, and what had major influences in changing how people played the game and such up till now. Like a full analytical breakdown where proof headings and such can be added to the context and to solidify that these prominent issues are not up for debate based on what's already facts and what isn't. Give things clarity essentially.
Loved this rant, as I've climbed the ranks I've personally found 6v6 more and more appealing as opposed to lounge for a lot of the reasons you listed in this video, it is wild how much we as a community view some numbers on a screen
I would disagree - TTs are definitely more consistent, but they are missing that interactive element that makes online competitions interesting (opponent decisions affecting you). There is not really a metagame with them that constantly changes how you approach races, it is just mastering a craft. TT competition is very skill based of course, but it's an entirely different beast. I don't think being the fastest player in the world makes you the best, is just how I see it. Still impressive regardless though.
Happy to only have 12 events this season, I’ve had times when I get the urge to grind it out again but I know the dopamine from hitting a rank after mindlessly chaining is never worth it
I’m so glad you uploaded this video. I’ve been having many of these exact same thoughts over the course of my time in the community, and I’ve genuinely become concerned about the effect this game can have on the mental health of its players. Any objective analysis of the game and the system the community has built for it, such as the one you’ve presented, reveals that it’s basically designed to tilt you as much as possible. MK8Dx is not a game meant to be taken this seriously.
I just started in the competitive scene so my outlook may be different, but I love playing the game either way have it be any format and I will always love playing it but like you said the hate that comes when your doing bad in lounge comes heavy which is unfortunate but I do look forward to WiFi and lan events especially because it brings out the best competition
If your approach remains healthy, lounge should be no problem for you. It's mainly just a concern when you start feeling distressing emotions about it.
I like lounge but it's definitely for the reason you outlined at the start. Basically casual 2v2 pickup matches with worthy opponents is just way more fun than a worldwide will ever be to me, but it is still a casual experience to me. There's minimal coordination and I almost never voice chat, so how could it be anything other than a casual experience. I'll definitely never be someone super invested in my maintaining any sort of MMR peak or even care about when I hit a slump, I just do my best and see what happens. I'm just happy these lobbies are so easily available, and I've made tons of friends through them.
Great video. Ive thought for a long time that lounge was really unfun because of all the negative surrounding it. I do 100% agree the community needs something new because you said it best, lounge is the tik tok doomscrolling of 8dx. Gonna go watch your tourney idea video now
I have a idea that could help. Maby make that people can play X amount of games a week and after the week update the mmr with the help of games played, the score you got, and the team mates score. Maby you could allso make it that the queue will always be in a order every hour. Extra info Play more than the X amount of games in the week than these races you played more will not count. If you drop out to mutch you lose mmr or lose something ells
It's hard to believe that limiting the amount of games wouldn't lead to outrage to be honest. Having matches that only matter for some people can lead to disaster too, and lead to some players being targeted as well. I don't think lounge should be changed really, we just have to find a way to lessen it's influence.
I tried lounge one time, and it was way too toxic for me. I'm a good Mario Kart player, but im no where good enough to rank too highly in lounge ( I ended up becoming the F/G tier.) I got stuck on a team randomly, and the person on my team wasnt happy and was being toxic simply because i kept losing races on my first time in competive. (Getting Mario Karted plus a skill issue.) I decided from that point on that I'm better off playing worldwide and trying to learn pro tricks on my own than fooling with competitive again lol.
I'm sorry to hear that man. Lounge is kind of a wild card option. You never know what kinds of players you're going to get. I'd still encourage you to enter some more lowkey events. Teaming with people you don't know can be kind of scary if you're unlucky. Yet another reason why lounge shouldn't be seen as so valuable
It's a term originating from the Japanese community I believe. It stands for "method of gathering individuals" I believe, once you get 12, you play one of a few formats (2v2, 3v3, 4v4, etc). Definitely not a dumb question. Maybe a dumb answer.
Apparently this was just made up by one of my friends to trick people like me so take this with a grain of salt. I guess it's just a loose translation of a matchmaking system or something
You definitely still can, but it gets harder to as you get better. You have to be much more deliberate in the ways you practice. I struggle with that myself.
Why do you think a tournament based system is better than an elo based system to accurately measure skills? What is even the fundamental difference between the two?
Essentially, an elo system will slightly favor players that game the system as opposed to one's that are actually better. This can be done by taking breaks after a win streak to hold a higher rank after a streak of good luck, which can boost player perception. Everyone on an elo leaderboard will always be at different phases (win streak, loss streak, or in between). A better player on a losing streak can be outshined by a weaker player that stopped playing as much after getting some wins. Essentially, those who care about their rating more can refuse to quit playing and get infinite attempts at climbing until they hit a lucky stretch, where people who use lounge to practice might be content to stop whenever. A tournament system fixes this because it caps the amount of races people can play, and will evaluate everyone given a sufficient amount of samples, while giving an even playing field to all the players involved. If Player A outperforms Player B over 3 tournaments, player B wouldn't have the option to continue moging until they surpassed them. A system like this would also allow us to way results evenly, and not erase any outcomes after enough time passes, like an elo system would. Essentially, one evaluation period, everyone has opportunities, but those opportunities are equally shared. Results become more about how you played under certain conditions as opposed to players choosing the conditions indefinitely until it works out for them.
Not like this enforceable or anything, but if you lobby players could keep your gatekeeping to your circles instead of harassing general Mario Kart discussion boards for not knowing how to do a Pythagorean Drift or whatever, that’d be pretty swell.
the easy solution is drop this dogshit game and play mkw (u have all the same issues but the game is actually good) edit: i said that as a joke before watching but genuinely like 90% of the issues you mention all relate back to the game itself being garbage lmao unlucky for u guys
I think most of these issues still plague the MKWii community to some degree as well (mainly the need for tournaments as a competitive staple), but it is to varying degrees. MMR is certainly more stable within more consistent games, and MKWii lounge is more consistent than MK8D, but in the grand scheme it is still a competitive game with RNG impact. If MK8D did not exist as a comparison point, MKWii would likely be a leading candidate for a lot of these issues. You are right though that the players of that game are probably less dependent on rng elements, and I'd argue that maybe MKWii doesn't need a 6v6 element toward assessing the best players. 8Ds main issue is that wars are easily the most skill oriented part of the game, but it requires a lot to make them interesting. As a result, a lot more work needs to be put in to the 8D community to maximize it's potential, and quite frankly the community might be too ignorant to understand what is good for them to start. I do think the potential is there, but it's hard not to go insane because a lot of (likely frauds) naturally want to protect the institutions that benefit them. But yeah, complex issue, complex solutions.
I am not against tournaments because they are hype, but I also think you may be overrating them a bit here; with rng games like Mario Kart, the sample size needs to be big in order for the best players to show that they are the best, and in that regard, nothing does it better than Lounge. Especially with a bigger community like 8D, the skill gaps are minuscule and its pretty damn hard to flex the skillgap against lesser opponents unlike MKW, making situations like that 3v3 race on Pinball deciding who advances or not beyond stupid. But if its just a lounge race, it matters a lot less because its 1 race of thousands, versus 1 race of 8 or 12 of a tournament. As for the format debate, both MKW lounge and the 8D lounge should be FFA only if staff was serious, but thats a pipe dream we probably will never achieve. (I'm of the opinion the more teammates you have, the less skillbased a format is) MKW 5v5s / 8D 6v6s to me dont count as mogis and are an entirely different class of competition that uses pretty different skillsets to win, so its not really related to Lounge. Wish you nothing but the best and have a Merry Christmas :D
I used to complain about the game. Then I learned a lot of skills about time management and I’ve gotten really good. I’m at 7k VR and win almost 50 percent of races and get top 3 75 percent of the time. I know that will go down as my VR goes up, but it’s mostly a skill game. If you know what you’re doing, you will average a really good place each time
People calling themselves "skilled but unlucky" will always be funny to me. In that case, I'd still rather team with a higher MMR player because I'd rather have a luckier teammate. Go figure out how to get luckier.
real
This truly wouldn't help them out, but it completely shuts down their nonsense arguments 😂
I'm skilled but unlucky when it comes to playing lottery. I know how to pick the best numbers yet I always lose.
I'm skilled but unlucky when it comes to playing lottery. I know how to pick the best numbers yet I always lose.
You can be skilled but unlucky in a mogi. But on a larger scale the luck ‘cancels out’ and skill is what seperates the players; that is why over all the mogis you do mmr is a good indicator of skill.
Halfway through the video but this is a really well said rant.
Alot of the points brought up in this video is a big reason why I try to avoid playing lounge and I think 6v6 is a better way of determining someone's skill.
You were my tm8 in my 1st ever experience of playing Room 1 and even though we lost, you were incredibly chill to communicate with in dms and I'm glad I had you as my tm8.
Really well made video. I've been driven away from lounge a lot because of how much of a needlessly unpleasant experience it can be, so it's great to see a discussion about this.
I'm the biggest bird i'm the biggest bird. 🐦 🦅🦆🦜🐥🦢🐓🦃🦉🐧🦤🦩🐦⬛🦚🪿
I've experienced a paradox that's very relevant to this video. Back when I played 8d I used to care a lot about my placements, and as a result I spent too much time focusing on what was mentioned in the video. I didn't have much time to spend in lounge; by the time I joined lounge I had given up that mentality and went with whatever the funny number said.
In MKT however I didn't expect much of myself. Multiplayer had just came out and I didn't have much experience so I wasn't expecting myself to place high. On only MKC's second MKT FFA I had a mickey mouse semifinals run similar to the good luck streak mentioned in the video. There were people eliminated in quarterfinals who deserved the 8th semifinals spot much more than I did, but because I had a long string of good luck I made a mickey mouse semifinals appearance. I didn't do well in semifinals of course since I had very little experience so I was practically a bronze player at the time. People in my room were essentially fighting to not get bottom 3.
When I gave up on 8d and became more active in August that year I saw rapid improvement; I went on to start with a 22-2 in lounge. This eventually turned into getting into a team that got D1 runner-up, then bracket tournament podiums, then D2 champions, and even WC and D1 champions. Earlier in that same year I reached platinum in the MKT lounge, something I had wished I could get in 8d lounge within 200 events. I even got top 4 in MKC's 6th MKT FFA, which I was stoked about of course.
The above paragraph only happened because I didn't care about my placement due to my lack of prior experience. I wanted to improve and become part of the top players, and I didn't like how my time in 8d was so I eventually stopped playing 8d altogether to go all-in on MKT, a game I actually enjoyed. Looking back, i wonder if I could've had the same path in 8d had I not cared, but then again with the relative ages of the games at the time (3 years 8d vs. 0 year MKT) maybe that's why I was able to get into high div in MKT much easier.
Long story short, I played better when I didn't care, and I played worse when I cared. That still applies to me today I feel.
That's actually super valid. Reminds me of a player from my region in Smash who essentially cut out a bad habit that he knew was bad, but fell back on. His results at first took a major step back, but he stuck with it and surpassed where he was at my a lot. He went from being a PR player to a threat at national tournaments, so there was a lot to lose but it was Def for the best. Feels a lot like TTing over queueing sometimes.
Disclaimer: doesn't work for everything, I don't care about my life and it's still not going well.
mkt > mk8d
@kiriomk2571 Major facts.
I haven't played competitive in like over a year but this video gave me some nostalgic memories I must say
and in relation to the video, yeah man I absolutley agree, MMR is a rather silly way to determine skill, I remember I went from bronze in like season 8 (I think) to gold 1 just by leaving the server and coming back without playing a single match in just like a year or 2.
In reality I've always prefered practicing playing 6v6 in whatever team I was on in the time, I've always been a clan hopper but mainly because I like meeting new people and stuff and making new friends, that's also a thing that I don't like about the current culture of MK8D competitive, as I've always felt judged for it but that's just probably only me who feels that way.
I also don't like how you always have to be put with "players of a similar skill level" back when I stopped playing I felt like I was at the peak of my game but other interests got in the way which is what made me leave, but the point I'm trying to make is that I only got good enough to play in teams like Mushroom team or Resemblance 2 by always trying to face new better players than me, that's how I improved, and I don't feel like lounge really helps me in that regard. of course there's always unranked but most people don't seem to care about that it would seem.
That's my 2 cents on the matter, great video, loved it, if I ever get back to competitive Mario Kart I hope to see those ideas you've been bouncing around be implemented, having a lounge that's actually fun to play and is of actually good practice to become not only a better individual player but a better team player, then I'd probably play it regularly, but as it stands even when I was in my prime I varely touched lounge, I found it way more productive, fun and a better way to learn to do 6v6 friendlies. That's were the real shit's at.
The whole idea of never getting to play out of your range is overlooked. I miss the pre Japan lounge mainly because before all the new players I could still play non sq matches with my friends. Now there's too many players between many of us in our skill levels now.
I just stopped playing this game all together in terms of playing it constantly online and in general the last time I ever touched this game was when I was playing in Lan mode with a friend like 2 weeks ago and will probably never touch the game again
This video was amazing man! I'm glad you made this video to push out the darkness hiding in secret with this community 🙏. Let's hope all of us can work together towards a fulfilling environment and end goal for the future of this game and community ❤
Again, not really the fault of the lounge itself. We've got to keep perspective of what the lounge really should be. Can't let it define our players.
Very interesting video, as someone who used to play a lot of Lounge, even before joining a team, I'm glad I managed to control myself a bit more, but I still think I don't have the mental and the correct mindset to make it beneficial for me. Every time I manage to take a little break I'm afraid of "intoxicating" myself with mogis.
What you said about dodging more shock by using the main color Yoshis is funny to me because as a Peach player, I felt like everyone made so I would never dodge a shock no matter what. And since I've switched to Yoshi/Birdo, I feel less targeted.
As a lounge player, i gotta say this video is such a wake up call to me. Like, as of now and before as an iron 2 to bronze 1 player, ive always just got angry and upset for each bad mogi ive had, always being toxic and just miserable. And yeah, i can agree how disorganized the system is, days of mine have been ruined because of lounge and because of the fact that i cant get better or that ive reached a certain threshold of skill to where i think i personally cant get better. And as of right now im trying to reach bronze 2 and get better as of there but the 1st time ive reached it, it was just because i was super lucky and a win streak carried me there. Over the weeks ive been trying to improve my mental and not crash out over a shitty mogi and take breaks but at the same time I realized how badly lounge has affected my mental health as a whole. I eventually got into a 6v6 team format and got myself into a team and ever since then ive felt alot more happier than compared to my time spent in lounge. I still do lounge yes, but im not so crazy over mmr than i used to be and i think that's an improvement even if its small. Phenomenal video and i hope i can become a better person and mk8dx player. :) ❤
you know, clearly i have taken a little too much stock in this system. i appreciate you posting this video. ive been meaning to rethink the way i do things, and you only further cemented that, so thanks mate. ive always been a numbers guy, it seems i was in the wrong/in denial, because i always thought "oh big number/more skill, thanks for opening my eyes. im not even being dramatic here, i do get a little TOO pissed off when i do this because of funny enough, the EXACT reasons you listed. "i blame x for y, etc" yes i know its a me issue, yes im trying to get over it.
@@overlordcameron I mean, there is fun in setting goals. I just wish we had more incentives to chase than the MMR system.
26:54 Not disagreeing with anything else that's been said but I think ego is inseparable from competition of any variety. You play a game because you love it, you play competitively to prove to others & yourself how good you are. Doesn't mean the ranking system can't be improved but ego will always be at the core of competitiveness.
Wanted to circle back to this one because it's a good comment. I agree with the fact that this is a fact of life. But the MMR system combined with it brings out some bad practices I would say, and that's the root of my point.
In the TCR Proposal I actually discuss using player ego in a way that is actually productive. Wanting to be ranked highly in a circuit could be a way to keep players from behaviors we don't want to see, like quitting tournaments, or we could use the ego as a way to encourage people to help their teammates even, if it leads to them winning more and ranking up. As it stands, the lounge and ego match to create addictive behavior I would argue, because players are never forced to accept results, which leads to them not really addressing their issues. There is always an assumption that the player is just unlucky and that the next match will prove it to be untrue.
@@HDRookie "But the MMR system combined with it brings out some bad practices I would say, and that's the root of my point." Oh yeah I wasn't arguing against that, I just wasn't sure based on how 26:54 sounded if you thought ego in competitive play was problematic in of itself, but I see what you're saying.
Definitely agree a format that reduces toxicity would be great (ego / competition isn't an excuse for being toxic ofc) & a circuit has additional benefits like explicit events which matter (instead of always having to play well & ego being on the line, you just need to train and be in top shape for specific events, overall less draining) and would make for more exciting content for streamers (similar to how melee players stream slippi but important tournaments get even more attention).
All that said, even with an accurate ranking system I expect people to struggle with handling luck in competitive play, mainly because it isn't always clear when something actually IS bad luck or not. If I know my luck is just terrible I can laugh at it, but in MK I have to question "was that bad luck or would a better player have done something differently? Is there a solution I'm not seeing?" I'm not sure if this is the common sentiment for how luck in MK frustrates people, but at least from my pov this is how it does.
havent watched the video yet but it's 50cc lounge
Well, maybe it could be lol. But probably applies to all
19:46 "maybe they see overseas players as just laggy players who don't pick excite bike"
this killed me 💀
Excellent video! I especially love how you tied it into how so many (myself included) engage too much in activities that don't challenge us to do anything hard. That is a message we all desperately need to internalize and an issue we must fix!
It truly all is a character building thing, believe it or not
Love hearing the support for 6v6 and the LAN scene. For me at least the idea of having a few tournaments spread out throughout the year and having time to improve between them would be something I'd totally do as it's kinda what I do for LANs now. I feel like having tournaments like this would also bring out the better side of the community because it would also be something for players to look forward to and get excited about rather than something people would chain 4 events in a row or "rage chaining". Just seems like having something people can look forward to and prepare specifically for will have a more positive outcome rather than lounge.
I think part of the ego side of things (I've been there) is that we believe that the difference between ranks isn't that big and that we can surpass it when we play enough mogis. However, the gap is way bigger than we think and we all need slices of humble pie.
The same gap exists for people who play lounge and people who only play as a party game. So like you said, we're not casual which makes us good at the game. But we're not elite either.
Disclaimer, I say we but I only used to do lounge. I'm retired from lounge now and transferring my drive to growing my business, which has been way more fulfilling.
Thought this was a very interesting video overall. I love playing lounge and I think it's a blast, but I also just chill around 0-1k MMR and am usually in the last room. Although even so far down, I see a lot of what you are talking about and can only imagine how much worse player behavior gets the higher up the MMR you go. I love playing 3v3s and 4v4s because I find them more fun and enjoyable to help my teammates and to try and play around them. It's funny, often times in the last room there will be a push for FFA specifically because the ability of your teammate can vary so much and people want to climb to a higher level.
Oddly, the server is probably healthiest at the lower level. There is enough room to grow I'd say that nobody can really blame RNG for misfortune, and I think the more casual lounge players are probably playing for the right reasons. 3v3 and 4v4 are fun formats for sure, I hope you continue to enjoy.
I used to play lounge a few years back but I stopped played lounge in this game simply because it got too toxic for me and I was so much more competitive when I was younger and got upset so easily back then. As well I’m primarily an Mk7 player and 8DX is meant to be my more casual game to play compared to 7.
Unironically leaving lounge helped me grow a lot as a person and has helped me take the game less seriously than I used to. I could probably come back to lounge with my refreshed mindset and handle it a bit better.
I do think MMR isn’t an accurate representation of a player. I TT 8DX quite a bit (albeit more casually since 8DX is more my casual game to play. I do TT some tracks at a high level like dBP 150, dHC 150, and RR 150) and I have general skill with driving, however I lack skill in item usage. It doesn’t mean I’m a good or bad player, I just excel in certain areas of the game while I fall behind in others.
Overall a very well made video!
great video. I recently really got into mk8dx and been playing a lot of online and haven't tried lounge yet. I didn't know it was as serious at it seems to be haha
I'm someone that has nothing to do with the competitive community of this game, lounge or whatever, but watching this video all I could think was "This problem isn't exclusive to MK8D at all lmao"
Like don't get me wrong this video is still excellent and you illustrated your points in an amazing way WHILE still offering up good solutions, but this kind of problem extends far past Mario Kart and goes into a lot of other games (The entire first half of the video reminded me a bit too well of the Splatoon community, one I'm actually involved in)
As long as there's a ranking system like the MMR, there will be players like this. So many keep forcing themselves to play a game that they clearly don't enjoy anymore JUST for the sake of getting those extra points, while getting extremely angry at any minor loss, and like you said they'd rather blame the game than look at themselves, without even looking back and even thinking that there's a bigger issue. I think the problem is beyond a "This makes the community send a bad message" and more of a proper mental problem that could spiral really badly for individual players
But again, this is far from a Mario Kart only problem, and has kinda been an internet mindset for years. I highly doubt anything's gonna change unfortunately
Glad to see people like you are willing to bring it up to the public though! The more this stuff is talked about the better :)
I agree that this system could be replicated anywhere. This video mainly was supposed to act as like, a call out to the top players about how important it truly is. There will always be toxic players trying to climb any solo queue offered, but we don't have to place our #1 priorities in said systems, I suppose.
just finished. amazing video. thought i'd draw a parallel with pokemon tcg pocket's competitive scene
no ranked mode (ie no lounge mmr system). competitive is defined by the community tournaments. this environment promotes innovation and player improvement and competition.
edit: i hope the bright future you propose can come to fruition for mk lounge
I feel as if Pokemon tournaments (non TGC) in general are fun precisely because new strategies can appear for the first time on the biggest stage as well. They're unleashed when there's likely to be no time to counter them.
Interesting to say the least, but I feel like this is the case for every video games that has a rank rating. personally I believe you truly deserve a rank when you are not afraid to queue in it.
Don't really get it because every other ranked game is exactly the same
@ it is, its an unfixable problem
It's true of all systems like lounge, but the way around it is through adopting a system that is seen as more prestigious. I'd argue that a circuit would be the better way to actually rank players, because it would put players onto the same playing field (same # of events, no recency bias manipulation). The other benefit of this is simply having higher stakes matches that are more streamable/castable.
As of through COVID-19 when lounge took great opportunities to grow its community, like a lot of online communities at that time, it was also the downfall of the skill on lounge. More players joining lounge for a challenge and to improve because it was the unofficial competitive MK8D scene as advertised. More players being encouraged to train via time trials, team 6v6s (Wars), worldwides & regionals, speedruns, and most importantly, grinding mogis. Overtime the balance of skill is just gonna even out and it's gonna come down to luck, and the increased masses of the lounge community clearly won't help that if you're trying to go up in the ranks. Lounge for MK8D is dead in my opinion due to this outlook which I have and have held up till now, and is why I quit a while back alongside knowing it was a waste of my time and damaging my health when it clearly wasn't worth it.
My lesson from this is that there's more to life that can be cherished than lounge, especially when you've done it enough to know that you are wasting your time and have stated it outright because of pure emotion. Call it catharsis if you want. Point is, there's a truth in that of the pain, ironic or not.
If you want out, you only need open your mind to the chance. It's always a choice. ♥
Sorry if this has sounded corny and/or cringe, just stating my experience and what has held objective through that of lounge irregardless if it's me stating it. 😂
Yes it's MY experience, and yes that's subjective when I state it, but it doesn't differentiate from what happened. I'm just here to accurately point it out as this is my comment on the whole situation.
Alright, I'm going to stop yapping now. This is definitely a good video though. States a lot of what I've witnessed already as an old lounge user. Very insightful. 👍
I would say there's a lot of skill involved in lounge still, but again, it's not a full diet. There's more skills out there that lounge doesn't exactly test or train as consistently.
@@HDRookie Yeah. My point still stands though because it's not to say that there isn't skill, but to say that the skill on lounge has been balancing out. Of course as a new variety of players join the lounge scene, this adds more variety and brings back more opportunity to use said skill where you're not relying on rng as much, giving you the advantage in this state, but from my experience, I haven't witnessed a lot of that. I didn't grind lounge though because I was dissatisfied simply put.
That said prior though, having new players join lounge and grind hard enough themselves both by playing mogis and other factors included tend to once again balance out the skill, but in bigger numbers more likely than not which doesn't help overall. However, I have noticed other old lounge players not play lounge as often now for similar reasons, so again it's a reciprocal process in the sense that by having too much of one side, is eventually going to dim out the other side and repeat the cycle where you have new players join and old players become less frequent or just straight up quit. That said though, I'm still not too certain I would apply this process to lounge given the state and amount of addicts who play lounge religiously in hopes of gaining mmr and because they're in their own heads which I personally see as objectively pathetic within this given context that is addiction specifically.
This is only due to the fact that I haven't actually played in several months so I haven't been on scene to see how many of the people I still remember are playing lounge and how frequently, outside of watchin' others.
Side note: I think a good video idea which could discuss and bring more light on this topic specifically is to compare lounge in 2021 or before to its other years such as now (2024) for example, and point out the differences, and what had major influences in changing how people played the game and such up till now. Like a full analytical breakdown where proof headings and such can be added to the context and to solidify that these prominent issues are not up for debate based on what's already facts and what isn't. Give things clarity essentially.
I literally just played my first 3 matches ever last night lol I'll definitely keep this video in mind as time goes on really good takes and mindsets
It's a fun queue. Just don't let it control you, some people forget that there are more important things and get addicted 😅
Loved this rant, as I've climbed the ranks I've personally found 6v6 more and more appealing as opposed to lounge for a lot of the reasons you listed in this video, it is wild how much we as a community view some numbers on a screen
I believe time trials is the best competitive way to play this game
I would disagree - TTs are definitely more consistent, but they are missing that interactive element that makes online competitions interesting (opponent decisions affecting you). There is not really a metagame with them that constantly changes how you approach races, it is just mastering a craft. TT competition is very skill based of course, but it's an entirely different beast. I don't think being the fastest player in the world makes you the best, is just how I see it. Still impressive regardless though.
Thank you for making this video. I agree with your points, it’s hard to enjoy lounge when someone who plays 10 mogis a day sucks the life out of it.
Happy to only have 12 events this season, I’ve had times when I get the urge to grind it out again but I know the dopamine from hitting a rank after mindlessly chaining is never worth it
20:53
one example of this that isn't teaming is track selection. i might notice a player is stellar at rMP and avoid that track
I’m so glad you uploaded this video. I’ve been having many of these exact same thoughts over the course of my time in the community, and I’ve genuinely become concerned about the effect this game can have on the mental health of its players. Any objective analysis of the game and the system the community has built for it, such as the one you’ve presented, reveals that it’s basically designed to tilt you as much as possible. MK8Dx is not a game meant to be taken this seriously.
Yeah, I think we also have a moral responsibility to fight back against addictive types of systems to begin with as well
I just started in the competitive scene so my outlook may be different, but I love playing the game either way have it be any format and I will always love playing it but like you said the hate that comes when your doing bad in lounge comes heavy which is unfortunate but I do look forward to WiFi and lan events especially because it brings out the best competition
If your approach remains healthy, lounge should be no problem for you. It's mainly just a concern when you start feeling distressing emotions about it.
I like lounge but it's definitely for the reason you outlined at the start. Basically casual 2v2 pickup matches with worthy opponents is just way more fun than a worldwide will ever be to me, but it is still a casual experience to me. There's minimal coordination and I almost never voice chat, so how could it be anything other than a casual experience.
I'll definitely never be someone super invested in my maintaining any sort of MMR peak or even care about when I hit a slump, I just do my best and see what happens. I'm just happy these lobbies are so easily available, and I've made tons of friends through them.
That's awesome to hear :)
Great video. Ive thought for a long time that lounge was really unfun because of all the negative surrounding it. I do 100% agree the community needs something new because you said it best, lounge is the tik tok doomscrolling of 8dx. Gonna go watch your tourney idea video now
It's a long one but very formal one, buckle up
I have a idea that could help. Maby make that people can play X amount of games a week and after the week update the mmr with the help of games played, the score you got, and the team mates score.
Maby you could allso make it that the queue will always be in a order every hour.
Extra info
Play more than the X amount of games in the week than these races you played more will not count.
If you drop out to mutch you lose mmr or lose something ells
It's hard to believe that limiting the amount of games wouldn't lead to outrage to be honest. Having matches that only matter for some people can lead to disaster too, and lead to some players being targeted as well. I don't think lounge should be changed really, we just have to find a way to lessen it's influence.
never rly saw this side of lounge, thanks for the video 🔥🙏🏽
I tried lounge one time, and it was way too toxic for me. I'm a good Mario Kart player, but im no where good enough to rank too highly in lounge ( I ended up becoming the F/G tier.) I got stuck on a team randomly, and the person on my team wasnt happy and was being toxic simply because i kept losing races on my first time in competive. (Getting Mario Karted plus a skill issue.) I decided from that point on that I'm better off playing worldwide and trying to learn pro tricks on my own than fooling with competitive again lol.
I'm sorry to hear that man. Lounge is kind of a wild card option. You never know what kinds of players you're going to get. I'd still encourage you to enter some more lowkey events. Teaming with people you don't know can be kind of scary if you're unlucky. Yet another reason why lounge shouldn't be seen as so valuable
oh my god im in the video frame one
Dumb question but what does mogi stand for?
It's a term originating from the Japanese community I believe. It stands for "method of gathering individuals" I believe, once you get 12, you play one of a few formats (2v2, 3v3, 4v4, etc).
Definitely not a dumb question. Maybe a dumb answer.
Apparently this was just made up by one of my friends to trick people like me so take this with a grain of salt. I guess it's just a loose translation of a matchmaking system or something
14:28 you did my boy diabolical 😭
Your actions have consequences 😎
I've only casually played Mario Kart but 30:55 would have me fkin *fuming* LMAO
Cynda told me I was a threat, and that I had to go 😮💨
at a certain point i know i hit my limit, given that i haven't improved in years!
You definitely still can, but it gets harder to as you get better. You have to be much more deliberate in the ways you practice. I struggle with that myself.
Great video. Some people are saying it might even be excellent.
Great video I share many opinions with!
Thanks for your work also. I want to make it clear that I'm against the institution, not the work others have done in response to it.
Why do you think a tournament based system is better than an elo based system to accurately measure skills? What is even the fundamental difference between the two?
Essentially, an elo system will slightly favor players that game the system as opposed to one's that are actually better. This can be done by taking breaks after a win streak to hold a higher rank after a streak of good luck, which can boost player perception. Everyone on an elo leaderboard will always be at different phases (win streak, loss streak, or in between). A better player on a losing streak can be outshined by a weaker player that stopped playing as much after getting some wins. Essentially, those who care about their rating more can refuse to quit playing and get infinite attempts at climbing until they hit a lucky stretch, where people who use lounge to practice might be content to stop whenever.
A tournament system fixes this because it caps the amount of races people can play, and will evaluate everyone given a sufficient amount of samples, while giving an even playing field to all the players involved. If Player A outperforms Player B over 3 tournaments, player B wouldn't have the option to continue moging until they surpassed them. A system like this would also allow us to way results evenly, and not erase any outcomes after enough time passes, like an elo system would.
Essentially, one evaluation period, everyone has opportunities, but those opportunities are equally shared. Results become more about how you played under certain conditions as opposed to players choosing the conditions indefinitely until it works out for them.
Not like this enforceable or anything, but if you lobby players could keep your gatekeeping to your circles instead of harassing general Mario Kart discussion boards for not knowing how to do a Pythagorean Drift or whatever, that’d be pretty swell.
I might be lost on this, but where is that happening? I would kind of like to take a look
good video thanks ur a cool guy
0 mmr comment got deleted 😭
What now? Don't think I saw it
13:00 lol i would've saved that recording too 😅
Well said
10:10 damso XDDDW
the easy solution is drop this dogshit game and play mkw (u have all the same issues but the game is actually good)
edit: i said that as a joke before watching but genuinely like 90% of the issues you mention all relate back to the game itself being garbage lmao unlucky for u guys
I think most of these issues still plague the MKWii community to some degree as well (mainly the need for tournaments as a competitive staple), but it is to varying degrees. MMR is certainly more stable within more consistent games, and MKWii lounge is more consistent than MK8D, but in the grand scheme it is still a competitive game with RNG impact. If MK8D did not exist as a comparison point, MKWii would likely be a leading candidate for a lot of these issues. You are right though that the players of that game are probably less dependent on rng elements, and I'd argue that maybe MKWii doesn't need a 6v6 element toward assessing the best players.
8Ds main issue is that wars are easily the most skill oriented part of the game, but it requires a lot to make them interesting. As a result, a lot more work needs to be put in to the 8D community to maximize it's potential, and quite frankly the community might be too ignorant to understand what is good for them to start. I do think the potential is there, but it's hard not to go insane because a lot of (likely frauds) naturally want to protect the institutions that benefit them. But yeah, complex issue, complex solutions.
I am not against tournaments because they are hype, but I also think you may be overrating them a bit here; with rng games like Mario Kart, the sample size needs to be big in order for the best players to show that they are the best, and in that regard, nothing does it better than Lounge.
Especially with a bigger community like 8D, the skill gaps are minuscule and its pretty damn hard to flex the skillgap against lesser opponents unlike MKW, making situations like that 3v3 race on Pinball deciding who advances or not beyond stupid. But if its just a lounge race, it matters a lot less because its 1 race of thousands, versus 1 race of 8 or 12 of a tournament.
As for the format debate, both MKW lounge and the 8D lounge should be FFA only if staff was serious, but thats a pipe dream we probably will never achieve. (I'm of the opinion the more teammates you have, the less skillbased a format is)
MKW 5v5s / 8D 6v6s to me dont count as mogis and are an entirely different class of competition that uses pretty different skillsets to win, so its not really related to Lounge.
Wish you nothing but the best and have a Merry Christmas :D
I used to complain about the game. Then I learned a lot of skills about time management and I’ve gotten really good. I’m at 7k VR and win almost 50 percent of races and get top 3 75 percent of the time. I know that will go down as my VR goes up, but it’s mostly a skill game. If you know what you’re doing, you will average a really good place each time
Battle lounge better
Probably, lol. The smaller lounges usually do it for the love of the game.