Thank you so much for discussing this. When I was a chaplain at the VA, we had to do this. The chaplain who was leading the exercise explained it loosely and then read the prayer at the beginning of the book. This was a prayer to the universe. I was the only chaplain who found fault in this and refused to participate. God help us! This thing is literally everywhere!
Thank you for calling this what it is…demonic! My pastor (we just left his church), would never call it demonic. He said “it’s just another personality test” & laughed that he’s a 10! I personally had a bad experience with the Enneagram & got deep into it until I realized I was obsessed with trying to “fix” myself. Thankfully the Holy Spirit showed me what the Enneagram really is. We are all sinful. We cannot “fix” ourselves nor do we have a certain “trait” we can never overcome. When God gives us a new heart-we are a new creation! I threw that Enneagram book OUT & got into the truth-The Word of God!
Thoughts: First, we probably cannot talk too much about Rohr. He's foundational to almost all current false gospels. Second, enneagram feels a lot like horoscope - especially in the way adherents use it to explain how things go. As in, "Ohhh, right, yeah, of course you would say that - you're a Libra!"
I noticed even the Epoch Times has a religious channel and they covered the enneagram, it's history, and the danger in using it. Just thought it was interesting.
Why call it “Christian yoga” if you’re just stretching? Just call it stretching. The sin comes in trying to meld Christianity and yoga which is fully attached to Hinduism
Agreed. I was told once that some of my gym stretches happened to be Yoga stretches. I had no clue. It's not like Yoga has a monopoly on stretch positions or no one else ever thought of doing similar stretches.
It's a pentagram, for New Age (False religion) (c)hristians. Everyone should know this about yourself... you're a Sinner in need of saving grace. Not to learn how great your wicked personality traits benefit your pride. Evangelicals would do well to put away their childish, cool, newest LifeWay devotionals, quit being made merchandise of, intently study and live out Titus 2. Period.
Hi John, I love your podcast! On this topic, in your summary towards the end about your concerns regarding enneagram- I think maybe you missed some of the harm enneagram is doing. On the west coast this has become very integrated into churches and mainly by women. So much so that it distorts and destroys the gospel. When christian women get together the topic is often drifted towards their enneagram type and how they relate to other enneagram types and how this affects their lives. Instead of seeing things as sim, it’s because they are and 8 who is concerned with justice, or a 3 who is always trying to achieve etc. I can tell you it is way more dangerous in that no longer are the Christian women exhorting and encouraging according the scriptures but are now doing it according to the enneagram.
Psychology is also a bunch of garbage. People give psychology way too much credit. Psychology has never been more accepted than today and suicide and apathy have never been more prevalent. It's not a coincidence.
The reason Keller and others are always concerned about being winsome toward the left is that the left is who they want to ingratiate themselves with. Now partly that might be due to pragmatism. They probably feel that more of the right is already on board with Christian principles, so there is less of a need to appeal to them. However, I think it's also a cultural thing for them. A lot of these guys seem to admire the left and the philosophy of the left. They may not openly admit it, but I think they're more concerned with appealing to the left because they see themselves are part of that tribe. Tribalism doesn't just disappear once you become a Christian, especially if your politics are almost as important to you as your faith.
Interesting curious George thoughts and it makes sense or at least it helps me understand where they are coming from. This should be questioned. I personally do not follow Keller and these others that are mentioned but know of people that just love Keller and his books and philosophy.
Find a good Systematic Theology book and sit down and study it. A church history book. Take some apologetics classes on line. Anything but this. Its a Mickey Mouse Club. Send in for your secret decoder ring.
This is a product by unbelievers for unbelievers. The reason the literal teaching of demons is popular in the church, is because the church is full of unbelievers.
"It's just a personality test." Oh really? Then why are you so fervently identifying with and defending this? I've been contending with this for about 2 years now among all the women I know, Christians chief among them, who put in their social media bio what number they are, or frequently reference it as the reason why they did something. Maddening. And every time there's yet another seminar on it, they say new and different things about it that they're just inventing on the spot and that not even Naranjo would've said about it. In the early 90s when this book made the rounds in Germany where I grew up, a friend of mine was super into it and told me to read it and she was into placing numbers on everyone. I thought it was numerology then and didn't read it. But from what she talked about, there was a "root sin" attached to every type and it appears that in these current books, that part has been edited out!
Thank you for talking about this. Midwest Christian Outreach has a series on the wickedness of the enneagram. I think Doreen Virtue and Marsha West were guests.
There's probably so many variations of the 9 eneamagrams out there. I've also seen a video exposing Dialectical Behavioral Therapy. These deceptions would be harder to expose if no one knew that it originated from automatic writing. 😮
Look for interviews with Marcia Montenegro. She is a former New Ager who is now a believer and has done extensive research about this. Rohr is a very dangerous false teacher.
Hey, guess what? Phil Vischer's wife is an enneagram consultant. So Junior Asparagus is in contact with the demonic realm. This will be covered in the new VeggieTales reunion, "Where's God When I'm at a S-S-Seance?"
Peter Scazzero is pushing this type of eastern mysticism through his EHD and EHS course. He has an unhealthy fascination with tapping into God through unconventional means. My pastor is in love with the material, and I'm currently trying to caution him on simply taking a step back to assess to see if this is biblical and if Christians should be practicing these things. Right now I'm trying to have a discussion about contemplative prayer with him but he is avoiding me.
"It's become so commercialized" - Jon "Where you treasure is, there will your heart be also" - Lord Jesus Commercialization shows that something has been taken to heart, not that it's become a less significant threat. The great strength of occultism (secret spiritual messaging) is its subtlety. When the threat takes on a less threatening appearance, it has become a greater threat. Demons are all about this tactic; their leader is represented as a serpent, and much of that is because of the fact which I am attempting to highlight here. I hope this notice is beneficial to whoever reads it. We are to be alert against the wiles of the devil.
I totally agree with you. I observe and constantly hear others saying that there's massive biblical illiteracy today. No one wants to spend the time or energy to dig into the treasure of God's Word. They see it as too costly. Ennegram is a cheap counterfeit to knowing God more deeply. And, makes our relationship with God more about knowing ourselves more, rather than Him. It's just wicked. Seriously.
Considering demonic origins...check out They Sold Their Souls for Rock n' Roll. Can't say I agree with Good Fight Ministries on everything, but it's definitely worth a watch. And beware, it's long.
I put this in the Sarah Young category, Jesus calling books She got her information from so-called spirit guides. Here’s a rule of thumb, if you can buy it at Costco in mass quantities then probably stay clear of the books.
I loved seeing more of your personality in this podcast. I’ve watched quite a bit re: the enneagram. You brought yet another angle convincing me it’s a definite NO!
I was on a pastor search committee and a few including the pastor were throwing weight into the candidates’ enneagram results. I didn’t even know what that was at the time. Needless to say, the candidate choice they made wasn’t my choice. Their emphasis on what makes a good teaching pastor was worldly. The whole process was very revealing to me. So much so, that I could not in good conscience, remain in the church. Sadly, looking back on it, leaving was indeed the right decision.
Jon, Sadly, we have observed where mention of and some mild discussion concerning the Enneagram has surfaced within our particular church body. We are disappointed because we fellowship with a local Calvary Chapel, and we never would have imagined it occurring at a CC. No one speaks out against it, but rather suggest that it is merely a “tool.”
The image of God is a very abused truth , no creature but man can bear the image , but man at the fall in the garden had to be restored t, that restoration starts at regeneration and this is taught throughout scripture but for brevity one of the most clear texts is Ephesians 4:20-24. Thankyou so much for dealing with subjects that have substance , this is a real blessing
Hey John, great talk. Thanks for this. I’m curious to know- what was the supplement called that had its origin in the demonic? I also used to take a particular supplement that’s why I’m curious. Hopefully can answer here Thanks.
Never heard of Darrin Patrick, and maybe the video is dated, but man can we please get past skinny jeans and ridiculously huge basketball shoes? It's so patronizing and embarrassing.
There are more comprehensive ways of measuring personality. Not only it it demonic in origin. It is outside of best practice with Professional Psycholgists best practice.
About 3 years ago a few of the ministry leaders at our church were bringing this in, and it seemed pretty obvious this was not something a Christian should be using. My wife, who is very discerning, pushed back when the leader of her ministry asked all the volunteers to participate, and this leader seemed pretty perturbed by that. We told her that we had some doubts about it and any biblical basis for using it. She relented but wasn't happy. She later resigned from the church and the pastor who bought it into the church also resigned. I never know the whole story but I was told they got jobs elsewhere.
The Lord would not have used the enneagram. I also think he would have used Olive oil and a touch of Frankincense instead of the beard oil you recommend. Come on people, work with me.
@@cat-bg3rv engrams are allegedly memories of traumatic past events. The Scientology 'e-meter' supposedly measures these and helps the auditor move the subject to a clear status. Engrams have a different definition in cognitive psychology. Hope that was helpful!
Many work places are implementing taking the enneagram to “ better help them perform “. I worked as a preschool teacher and in a staff meeting they said they wanted us to take it. I ended up privately contacting our management and told them I was a Christian and it was a pagan practice and I wouldn’t be participating. They didn’t force me but I have since left that job after 5 years for other reasons. Interestingly, I live in a heavy populated Mormon area and all my coworkers were Mormon. With their freemasonry history and all the Mormon church secret things they do , I wasn’t surprised it became a part of my workforce expectations.
Thank you for your voice of warning. Isn't this the typical 'itching ears syndrome' in 2Tim 4:3 in effect? And supposed learned men are the leaders of the pack! If we didn't have Scripture like this and Rom 1 explaining what is going on today, I think I would loose my mind! But God is Sovereign on the throne doing His work. Praise God!
Personally I don't think that anyone should be scared of the ennegram because it is a poor instrument to categorize personality to begin with. Someone referred to it about a week ago about their husband and I stated it would be better to examine personality traits on tendencies toward narcissism or not. The thing about the ennegram there is no place to understanding spiritual gifts and how gifts are to complement each other in an assembly. Btw, Darrin Patrick's statements are simply idolatrous and take a reductionist view of God's personality. Very problematic, heretical. I thought the cross of Christ and taking up his yoke was determining how to walk between Spirit and flesh. 😱 Oh my
Great commentary! Would just caution you about getting a better understanding of the poses of Yoga and how the spiritual can not be separated from the poses. Doreen Virtue has some good videos on this.
Not denying the possible value test like this can bring, but in the end, this is more evidence of how strongly pragmatism grips the SBC and the evangelical church more broadly.
Nine personality types? Boy, it was so much easier years ago when we were only given four categories to choose from: Lion (a real leader type) a Beaver ( the guys who gets things done) a golden retriever ( loyal and what, sheds a lot?) or an otter (likes to have fun) I threw the leaders at a church-planting seminar for a loop when I insisted that they add another category for me. I was definitely a duck-billed platypus. (I am not sure why, but I identify as such.) What a bunch of nonsense.
You say that your thoughts aren't fully developed, but you present one the clearest refutations of the perplexing practice. I do not know who is teaching this in a systematic way in seminaries and in pastors' retreats, but they are being completely dishonest as to the creation of Enneagram. They like to mention the "desert fathers" and "ancient" Christian practices, but this is a convenient fabrication. The way pastors have swallowed this whole and are disseminating it to their congregations is stunning to me.
I appreciate your messages. This is off topic. Did you watch any part of Founder's Conference? Since they are Southern Baptist, I was so surprised how much I enjoyed it and how many of my favorite pastors participated. Not all Southern Baptist Churches are the same.
_''To whom then will you liken God? Or what likeness will you compare to Him? To whom then will you liken Me, or shall l be equal? ..saith The Holy One''_ ` lsaiah 4O: l8 and 25
This looks very much like gnostic/hermeticism and the parasitical way it is attaching to Christianity just makes it makes look more like a syncretistic gnostic movement. Color me not at all surprised to see Russell Moore and Phil Vischer wrapped up in it.
The Enneagram (and other "type" indicators like the MBTI) have repeatedly been shown to have poor reliability and even worse validity. They have a place in therapeutic interventions but beyond that they should not be used to support any form of decision making about people (e.g., fit with a particular context, role, or congregation). Adam Grant has a few papers on this topic worth reading. The papers focus mostly on the MBTI but apply to the Enneagram. There are far better assessments available.
I think the comment about tempting Eve is pretty spot on. Another thing that I can't help but think about with the Enneagram is that in the gospels the demons would proclaim that Jesus was the son of God, and Jesus would silence them. Because we should not use the testimony of demons in relation to God. If the origins are demonic then why would I use it to tell me about God or my relationship with him or his creation?
That's not why Jesus silenced them. Jesus silenced them for the same reason He often forbade ppl that He healed or performed miracles for from announcing who He was: He didn't want them publicly announcing who He was. He knew that the ppl who had the wrong mindset about what the Messiah was supposed to do would try to make him a king on the spot and expect Him to kick the Romans out of Judea.
@@theeternalsbeliever1779 Friend, your argument is not mutually exclusive of mine. Both of our statements can be true at the same time. Per John MacArthur's Commentary on the Gospel of Mark, the Pharisee's argued that Jesus cast out demons by Beelzebub, if Jesus had allowed demons to continue to talk it would have only strengthened their case. Back to my point, should we base theological truths on the word of the father of lies? I would say the answer is no. And if Naranjo says that he attained this secret knowledge through automatic writing and if automatic writing is a form of communicating with demons, then should we use that information to inform or influence Christian theology? I would say the answer is no.
I lived in Chile from 2015 to 2019. During that time I attended a Christian church of good doctrine and never in that time I heard about this enea gram thing in the Christian people. Members of my family hard about this but from people outside the church. This was seen a some sort of mystical thing, similar to tarot cards to give an example. I am amazed how this thing has made its way through the church in the USA. By the progressive standards this wold be ‘cultural appropriation’. Arica is a small city in the north of Chile, at the border with Peru.
Neuthetic counseling is abusive or at least it used to be (telling people that their psychological pain is their own fault and that emotional issues can be fixed in 6 sessions). It is simply warmed over behaviorism and imports tons of non-biblical presuppositions. It also ignores tons advances in the field of psychology. At root, the bible (while inerrant) is not a psychology text, viz, it is not intended as the sole source of knowledge of the human psyche, anymore than it is the sole and exhaustive source of all political thought. Where the bible speaks to those issues, it does so perfectly and with presuppositional unquestionable authority, but it is simply not exhaustive... and Neuthetic "counseling" does not stop where Scripture does... it is its own philosophy and (contrary to its claims) borrows from secular psychology.
You should have on the girl from Heaven and Healing podcast, she used to be very strongly into the "New Age" occultism and I think would be a great guest to talk about this
If this 9 parts thing is true, I need to hear from other "parts",(minorities; races ?), to have the full picture., and if you are not the particular type that should have a bigger voice in this instance you need to just be quiet and listen. Kinda sounds like another way to use analytical observational tools to head the same heretical direction. Thanks Jon.
Thank you so much for discussing this. When I was a chaplain at the VA, we had to do this. The chaplain who was leading the exercise explained it loosely and then read the prayer at the beginning of the book. This was a prayer to the universe. I was the only chaplain who found fault in this and refused to participate. God help us! This thing is literally everywhere!
Well done!
I'll tell who the Baptist can care less for by experience...they hate the poor who beg
B
@@dianetigert1310 I am curious and learning, what does this statement mean?
@@cat-bg3rv
Matthew 25:41-46............hope your enlightened to the truth.
The enneagram helps the gospel to restore man? Same old perverted resolution in a different direction.
Thank you for calling this what it is…demonic! My pastor (we just left his church), would never call it demonic. He said “it’s just another personality test” & laughed that he’s a 10! I personally had a bad experience with the Enneagram & got deep into it until I realized I was obsessed with trying to “fix” myself. Thankfully the Holy Spirit showed me what the Enneagram really is. We are all sinful. We cannot “fix” ourselves nor do we have a certain “trait” we can never overcome. When God gives us a new heart-we are a new creation! I threw that Enneagram book OUT & got into the truth-The Word of God!
The 9 ennegrams oppose the 9 fruits of the Spirit of God . Dialectical Behavioral Therapy is just as bad.
Doreen Virtue did a video on Myers-Briggs, as well.
Thoughts:
First, we probably cannot talk too much about Rohr. He's foundational to almost all current false gospels.
Second, enneagram feels a lot like horoscope - especially in the way adherents use it to explain how things go. As in, "Ohhh, right, yeah, of course you would say that - you're a Libra!"
Melissa Doherty, a former New Age practitioner now Christian has a great podcast on this topic.
Yes, and she recommends our book which is how she found out about the facts.
I like Melissa. 👍
@@TheExastrologerwhat book are you referring to? I’d like to check it out.
Gosh !! is there something new popping up every day? What a bunch of koolaid
I noticed even the Epoch Times has a religious channel and they covered the enneagram, it's history, and the danger in using it. Just thought it was interesting.
"The virus escaped from the lab."
Nyuck, Nyuck!
Why call it “Christian yoga” if you’re just stretching? Just call it stretching. The sin comes in trying to meld Christianity and yoga which is fully attached to Hinduism
Agreed. I was told once that some of my gym stretches happened to be Yoga stretches. I had no clue. It's not like Yoga has a monopoly on stretch positions or no one else ever thought of doing similar stretches.
Yes! You make a very good point.
Yoga is a holistic activity, not just a stretch. There is a mindset. There is a meditation. Body. Spirit. Soul. This is the danger of these things.
I need the Sermon on the Mount - not an Enneagram!!
Yoga stretching doesn't need to be called yoga. It's the mental aspect of yoga that is the danger, not the physical.
What is so disheartening is when a congregation goes to the church leadership about these things and the response is platitudes and dismissals.
MBTI does not necessarily conflict with the Bible. It's just a tool to understand our thinking process.
It's a pentagram, for New Age (False religion) (c)hristians.
Everyone should know this about yourself... you're a Sinner in need of saving grace. Not to learn how great your wicked personality traits benefit your pride. Evangelicals would do well to put away their childish, cool, newest LifeWay devotionals, quit being made merchandise of, intently study and live out Titus 2. Period.
Hi John,
I love your podcast!
On this topic, in your summary towards the end about your concerns regarding enneagram- I think maybe you missed some of the harm enneagram is doing. On the west coast this has become very integrated into churches and mainly by women. So much so that it distorts and destroys the gospel. When christian women get together the topic is often drifted towards their enneagram type and how they relate to other enneagram types and how this affects their lives. Instead of seeing things as sim, it’s because they are and 8 who is concerned with justice, or a 3 who is always trying to achieve etc. I can tell you it is way more dangerous in that no longer are the Christian women exhorting and encouraging according the scriptures but are now doing it according to the enneagram.
I have heard people using these types to excuse certain sin. It has also been used to manipulate spouses.
I've observed this as well, Hannah. Great observation.
Information that I find helpful. Thank you for sharing.
Psychology is also a bunch of garbage. People give psychology way too much credit. Psychology has never been more accepted than today and suicide and apathy have never been more prevalent. It's not a coincidence.
The reason Keller and others are always concerned about being winsome toward the left is that the left is who they want to ingratiate themselves with. Now partly that might be due to pragmatism. They probably feel that more of the right is already on board with Christian principles, so there is less of a need to appeal to them. However, I think it's also a cultural thing for them. A lot of these guys seem to admire the left and the philosophy of the left. They may not openly admit it, but I think they're more concerned with appealing to the left because they see themselves are part of that tribe. Tribalism doesn't just disappear once you become a Christian, especially if your politics are almost as important to you as your faith.
Interesting curious George thoughts and it makes sense or at least it helps me understand where they are coming from. This should be questioned. I personally do not follow Keller and these others that are mentioned but know of people that just love Keller and his books and philosophy.
So glad you are bringing attention to this nonsense
Find a good Systematic Theology book and sit down and study it. A church history book. Take some apologetics classes on line. Anything but this. Its a Mickey Mouse Club. Send in for your secret decoder ring.
This is a product by unbelievers for unbelievers. The reason the literal teaching of demons is popular in the church, is because the church is full of unbelievers.
"It's just a personality test." Oh really? Then why are you so fervently identifying with and defending this? I've been contending with this for about 2 years now among all the women I know, Christians chief among them, who put in their social media bio what number they are, or frequently reference it as the reason why they did something. Maddening. And every time there's yet another seminar on it, they say new and different things about it that they're just inventing on the spot and that not even Naranjo would've said about it. In the early 90s when this book made the rounds in Germany where I grew up, a friend of mine was super into it and told me to read it and she was into placing numbers on everyone. I thought it was numerology then and didn't read it. But from what she talked about, there was a "root sin" attached to every type and it appears that in these current books, that part has been edited out!
Who is that Darrin Patrick guy??? Why do these guys pastor churches!! Pure wicked
Thank you for talking about this. Midwest Christian Outreach has a series on the wickedness of the enneagram. I think Doreen Virtue and Marsha West were guests.
Marcia Montenegro
@@sarahd5341 thank you! Bad memory!
There's probably so many variations of the 9 eneamagrams out there. I've also seen a video exposing Dialectical Behavioral Therapy. These deceptions would be harder to expose if no one knew that it originated from automatic writing. 😮
Look for interviews with Marcia Montenegro. She is a former New Ager who is now a believer and has done extensive research about this. Rohr is a very dangerous false teacher.
Hey, guess what? Phil Vischer's wife is an enneagram consultant. So Junior Asparagus is in contact with the demonic realm. This will be covered in the new VeggieTales reunion, "Where's God When I'm at a S-S-Seance?"
Peter Scazzero is pushing this type of eastern mysticism through his EHD and EHS course. He has an unhealthy fascination with tapping into God through unconventional means. My pastor is in love with the material, and I'm currently trying to caution him on simply taking a step back to assess to see if this is biblical and if Christians should be practicing these things. Right now I'm trying to have a discussion about contemplative prayer with him but he is avoiding me.
going through similar situation with our leadership
"It's become so commercialized" - Jon
"Where you treasure is, there will your heart be also" - Lord Jesus
Commercialization shows that something has been taken to heart, not that it's become a less significant threat. The great strength of occultism (secret spiritual messaging) is its subtlety. When the threat takes on a less threatening appearance, it has become a greater threat. Demons are all about this tactic; their leader is represented as a serpent, and much of that is because of the fact which I am attempting to highlight here.
I hope this notice is beneficial to whoever reads it. We are to be alert against the wiles of the devil.
I totally agree with you. I observe and constantly hear others saying that there's massive biblical illiteracy today. No one wants to spend the time or energy to dig into the treasure of God's Word. They see it as too costly. Ennegram is a cheap counterfeit to knowing God more deeply. And, makes our relationship with God more about knowing ourselves more, rather than Him. It's just wicked. Seriously.
Sponsors compromise the credibility of this channel. Is UA-cam monetization inadequate?
Considering demonic origins...check out They Sold Their Souls for Rock n' Roll. Can't say I agree with Good Fight Ministries on everything, but it's definitely worth a watch. And beware, it's long.
Yes. Patrick's talk is stupid, absurd, embarrassing.
Thank you for the insight. It's tremendously helpful.
I put this in the Sarah Young category, Jesus calling books She got her information from so-called spirit guides. Here’s a rule of thumb, if you can buy it at Costco in mass quantities then probably stay clear of the books.
Wow! I heard about Sarah Young a while ago. This is scary! Many will be deceived.
I loved seeing more of your personality in this podcast.
I’ve watched quite a bit re: the enneagram. You brought yet another angle convincing me it’s a definite NO!
possibly relevant re: demonic influences - Darrin Patrick killed himself in 2020
I just saw that after I recorded the episode and then vaguely remembered the story and put 2 and 2 together. Very sad.
Is this the pastor that was on the video Jon shared?
I was on a pastor search committee and a few including the pastor were throwing weight into the candidates’ enneagram results. I didn’t even know what that was at the time. Needless to say, the candidate choice they made wasn’t my choice. Their emphasis on what makes a good teaching pastor was worldly. The whole process was very revealing to me. So much so, that I could not in good conscience, remain in the church. Sadly, looking back on it, leaving was indeed the right decision.
Jon,
Sadly, we have observed where mention of and some mild discussion concerning the Enneagram has surfaced within our particular church body. We are disappointed because we fellowship with a local Calvary Chapel, and we never would have imagined it occurring at a CC.
No one speaks out against it, but rather suggest that it is merely a “tool.”
That "tool" is extra biblical then. That's scary.
Do people realize that Darrin Patrick who spoke at Liberty Univ. and is shown in this webcast (and I posted on that) killed himself in July, 2020?
When we stray from Gods truth and it’s sufficiency we are playing Russian roulette. Jesus says “I am the way, the truth & the life!
I released a song about the Richard Rohr and the enneagram called, “a new heresy”.
The image of God is a very abused truth , no creature but man can bear the image , but man at the fall in the garden had to be restored t, that restoration starts at regeneration and this is taught throughout scripture but for brevity one of the most clear texts is Ephesians 4:20-24. Thankyou so much for dealing with subjects that have substance , this is a real blessing
Hey John, great talk. Thanks for this. I’m curious to know- what was the supplement called that had its origin in the demonic? I also used to take a particular supplement that’s why I’m curious. Hopefully can answer here Thanks.
Living streams probiotics
Latest hip haircut, hip beard, hip clothes, hip pseudo-theology.
Darren Patrick was kicked out of his pastorate for adultery from what I recall.
Thank you for detailing the origins of this sham. Tfs.
Never heard of Darrin Patrick, and maybe the video is dated, but man can we please get past skinny jeans and ridiculously huge basketball shoes? It's so patronizing and embarrassing.
@Pardoned Rebellet's hope he repents, gets away from leadership roles and isn't just recycled by being declared "restored".
There are more comprehensive ways of measuring personality. Not only it it demonic in origin. It is outside of best practice with Professional Psycholgists best practice.
About 3 years ago a few of the ministry leaders at our church were bringing this in, and it seemed pretty obvious this was not something a Christian should be using. My wife, who is very discerning, pushed back when the leader of her ministry asked all the volunteers to participate, and this leader seemed pretty perturbed by that. We told her that we had some doubts about it and any biblical basis for using it. She relented but wasn't happy. She later resigned from the church and the pastor who bought it into the church also resigned. I never know the whole story but I was told they got jobs elsewhere.
The Lord would not have used the enneagram. I also think he would have used Olive oil and a touch of Frankincense instead of the beard oil you recommend. Come on people, work with me.
Wow.. what blasphemes
Arent Enneagrams big in the cult of Scientology? If so, that tells me, RUN! Thanks Jon, for your thoughts and concern, l appreciate it.
Nope, that's engrams. Even the Scientologists don't accept things like the enneagram!
@@ericedwards8902 What are engrams?
@@cat-bg3rv engrams are allegedly memories of traumatic past events. The Scientology 'e-meter' supposedly measures these and helps the auditor move the subject to a clear status.
Engrams have a different definition in cognitive psychology.
Hope that was helpful!
Didn't the SBC use the same argument (a tool) to justify using CRT?
What was the tool for using CRT?
Many work places are implementing taking the enneagram to “ better help them perform “.
I worked as a preschool teacher and in a staff meeting they said they wanted us to take it.
I ended up privately contacting our management and told them I was a Christian and it was a pagan practice and I wouldn’t be participating.
They didn’t force me but I have since left that job after 5 years for other reasons.
Interestingly, I live in a heavy populated Mormon area and all my coworkers were Mormon. With their freemasonry history and all the Mormon church secret things they do , I wasn’t surprised it became a part of my workforce expectations.
“There’s not a lot of scientific accuracy to a lot of things!” - Russell Moore… oh, the irony is THICC 😂
Isn't that the same Darin Patrick who committed suicid a couple of years ago?
Yep, he killed himself in 2020. This explains a lot
It’s astrology by another name.
Thank you for your voice of warning. Isn't this the typical 'itching ears syndrome' in 2Tim 4:3 in effect? And supposed learned men are the leaders of the pack! If we didn't have Scripture like this and Rom 1 explaining what is going on today, I think I would loose my mind! But God is Sovereign on the throne doing His work. Praise God!
Personally I don't think that anyone should be scared of the ennegram because it is a poor instrument to categorize personality to begin with. Someone referred to it about a week ago about their husband and I stated it would be better to examine personality traits on tendencies toward narcissism or not. The thing about the ennegram there is no place to understanding spiritual gifts and how gifts are to complement each other in an assembly.
Btw, Darrin Patrick's statements are simply idolatrous and take a reductionist view of God's personality. Very problematic, heretical. I thought the cross of Christ and taking up his yoke was determining how to walk between Spirit and flesh. 😱 Oh my
Then you have the Christians who believe spiritual gifts have ceased or "cessation".
Ive noticed too, that many of the spiritual gifts tests churches use and teach from are a form of personality test.
I vaguely remember that when I was much younger with the church offering these spiritual gifts tests!
Great commentary! Would just caution you about getting a better understanding of the poses of Yoga and how the spiritual can not be separated from the poses. Doreen Virtue has some good videos on this.
Yes she does. I believe Steven Bancarz does too.
Is the "Franciscan" that he refers to at 25:05, that stole his ideas, Richard Rohr?
Not denying the possible value test like this can bring, but in the end, this is more evidence of how strongly pragmatism grips the SBC and the evangelical church more broadly.
New Age crap like that is all over CA.
Nine personality types? Boy, it was so much easier years ago when we were only given four categories to choose from: Lion (a real leader type) a Beaver ( the guys who gets things done) a golden retriever ( loyal and what, sheds a lot?) or an otter (likes to have fun) I threw the leaders at a church-planting seminar for a loop when I insisted that they add another category for me. I was definitely a duck-billed platypus. (I am not sure why, but I identify as such.) What a bunch of nonsense.
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You say that your thoughts aren't fully developed, but you present one the clearest refutations of the perplexing practice. I do not know who is teaching this in a systematic way in seminaries and in pastors' retreats, but they are being completely dishonest as to the creation of Enneagram. They like to mention the "desert fathers" and "ancient" Christian practices, but this is a convenient fabrication. The way pastors have swallowed this whole and are disseminating it to their congregations is stunning to me.
I appreciate your messages. This is off topic. Did you watch any part of Founder's Conference? Since they are Southern Baptist, I was so surprised how much I enjoyed it and how many of my favorite pastors participated.
Not all Southern Baptist Churches are the same.
_''To whom then will you liken God? Or what likeness will you compare to Him? To whom then will you liken Me, or shall l be equal? ..saith The Holy One''_ ` lsaiah 4O: l8 and 25
How does Russell moore always end up pitching whatever garbage is currently popular?
The law of attraction has been Christianized by the name it and claim it of the Word of Faith Prosperity movement.
Meyers Briggs was also developed by a mother and daughter that were studying Carl Jung, so basically all personality tests are the occult lol nice
It was not occult .
Ive also heard that Dialectical Behavioral Therapy is just as bad as the 9 eneamgrams.
and they will heap up teachers unto themselves bc they have itching ears...
So it's a tool...like CRT?
Bruce Frank, is a Psychologist?
“A distraction”… BINGO!!!
This looks very much like gnostic/hermeticism and the parasitical way it is attaching to Christianity just makes it makes look more like a syncretistic gnostic movement. Color me not at all surprised to see Russell Moore and Phil Vischer wrapped up in it.
Is Russell Moore part of TGC?
What supplement are you referring to??
It's crazy to me that anyone cares what you think.
Wait- Darrin Patrick committed suicide?
Didn't Darrin Patrick commit suicide?
My education professor always reminded us grad students, "We are made in the image of God and thus are created with immeasurable potential.
I like the created in the image of God part.
The Enneagram (and other "type" indicators like the MBTI) have repeatedly been shown to have poor reliability and even worse validity. They have a place in therapeutic interventions but beyond that they should not be used to support any form of decision making about people (e.g., fit with a particular context, role, or congregation). Adam Grant has a few papers on this topic worth reading. The papers focus mostly on the MBTI but apply to the Enneagram. There are far better assessments available.
As a psychologist I can attest to that.
I think the comment about tempting Eve is pretty spot on. Another thing that I can't help but think about with the Enneagram is that in the gospels the demons would proclaim that Jesus was the son of God, and Jesus would silence them. Because we should not use the testimony of demons in relation to God. If the origins are demonic then why would I use it to tell me about God or my relationship with him or his creation?
That's not why Jesus silenced them. Jesus silenced them for the same reason He often forbade ppl that He healed or performed miracles for from announcing who He was: He didn't want them publicly announcing who He was. He knew that the ppl who had the wrong mindset about what the Messiah was supposed to do would try to make him a king on the spot and expect Him to kick the Romans out of Judea.
@@theeternalsbeliever1779 Friend, your argument is not mutually exclusive of mine. Both of our statements can be true at the same time. Per John MacArthur's Commentary on the Gospel of Mark, the Pharisee's argued that Jesus cast out demons by Beelzebub, if Jesus had allowed demons to continue to talk it would have only strengthened their case. Back to my point, should we base theological truths on the word of the father of lies? I would say the answer is no. And if Naranjo says that he attained this secret knowledge through automatic writing and if automatic writing is a form of communicating with demons, then should we use that information to inform or influence Christian theology? I would say the answer is no.
Mysticism
I thought Jesus had all the styles and then my style is flesh?
I lived in Chile from 2015 to 2019. During that time I attended a Christian church of good doctrine and never in that time I heard about this enea gram thing in the Christian people. Members of my family hard about this but from people outside the church. This was seen a some sort of mystical thing, similar to tarot cards to give an example. I am amazed how this thing has made its way through the church in the USA. By the progressive standards this wold be ‘cultural appropriation’. Arica is a small city in the north of Chile, at the border with Peru.
Holy balls, as if Modalism weren't enough we now have a little modern take to fail at describing God. Gnosis. For a fool.
American Gospel TV has an incredible online multi part series on this very topic.
Neuthetic counseling is abusive or at least it used to be (telling people that their psychological pain is their own fault and that emotional issues can be fixed in 6 sessions). It is simply warmed over behaviorism and imports tons of non-biblical presuppositions. It also ignores tons advances in the field of psychology. At root, the bible (while inerrant) is not a psychology text, viz, it is not intended as the sole source of knowledge of the human psyche, anymore than it is the sole and exhaustive source of all political thought. Where the bible speaks to those issues, it does so perfectly and with presuppositional unquestionable authority, but it is simply not exhaustive... and Neuthetic "counseling" does not stop where Scripture does... it is its own philosophy and (contrary to its claims) borrows from secular psychology.
Why the smirks?
You should have on the girl from Heaven and Healing podcast, she used to be very strongly into the "New Age" occultism and I think would be a great guest to talk about this
P . S . Leaders are no longer concealing their con
-descension,pandering,patronizing ambitions 😉😏 🤫
If this 9 parts thing is true, I need to hear from other "parts",(minorities; races ?), to have the full picture., and if you are not the particular type that should have a bigger voice in this instance you need to just be quiet and listen. Kinda sounds like another way to use analytical observational tools to head the same heretical direction. Thanks Jon.
Please keep up the good work. Our struggle to defend our country from the bastardization of foreign corruption and deliberberate Darvo is constant.
James, Little Johnny boy's dad, Merritt, was the one that made the comment about the world watching.
Darrin Patrick committed suicide.
This makes gnosticism seem sensical
Hahaha.
Notifications mysteriously turned off. Hmmm.
Distraction...yes and amen! 🙌