The fact that Janissaries (atleast for elite) didn't get their iconic hats in DE is still something I'm not over, would've been worth the price of the elite upgrade alone
I would have loved if you had also specifically compared bohemian (access in castle age) and burgundian (+25% damage increase) handcannons with the (elite) janissary. Especially the Bohemians are a very similar comparison as a handcannons rush plays out very similar to a castle drop into jannissaries.
Extra range changes it's role only as it wrecks siege, instead siege wrecking hindustani handcanons. I get this changes the unit, but 1 age eaelier Handcanon vs nonE Jana, and higher damage handcanon vs EJana is more intresting.
Bohemians HC seem like such a better all-around unit compared to Janissaries. You only need one tech (but, even with the cost of the university, it's about the same amount of resources as a castle), you can train them out of archery ranges and they come with an infantry bonus and better accuracy? Sign me up.
@@MrDemirarslan chemistry takes about as long to research as a castle takes to build. It’s one more step (the university) but you don’t need to have all of the resources up front and you’re using the resources you were already collecting instead of needing to move bills to stone. And whatever time you lose building the uni + researching chemistry is made up by the fact you need less time to build a critical mass of HCs, which is very important.
I kinda figured it wasn't going to happen, but I was really hoping that the royal janissary unit from the editor would've made an appearance for purely comparison sake. In a video about how effective janissaries are in normal game, I know why it didn't, but it would've been funny.
Yes, especially because focus-firing synergizes with kiting, and despite their medium move speed, elite janissaries are one of the best kiting units in the game since they're the only non-siege non-ship unit with zero frame delay, giving them perfectly efficient mobility while attacking.
I don't understand why jannisarries have the lowest accuracy among all gunpowder units. Before the nerf, I thought like okay, they are long range units. Now they lost their range. Spanish have conquistator, Bohemians can create hand cannoneers at Castle Age, jannisarries are not special anymore.
This game is a great historical learning tool. As everyone knows, a 4th-century Gothic warlord's personal retinue would easily defeat a disciplined battle-line of rifle-armed janissaries.
In my wargaming days - I played Ottomans a lot. My Janissaries won me so many games, although I was playing a 15th century list where they are still archers, with a Serbian ally for some knights.
@@C2TheHill2910 most likely gaznavid is talking about tabletop wargaming. (in germany "wargaming" is an unpopular descriptor, so tabletop (the term) is almost a stand in for things like Warhammer, Flames of war, pike and shot ... . In english speaking gaming "tabletop" means anything played on a table (boardgames,Cardgames...), while Warhammer and so on are called "wargames".
@johnmannich4978 correct, table top figure gaming. I used to play DBM. I played some Flames of War, but I always found the rules to be too unbalanced - maybe because I was stupid enough to play Easy 8's in Late War. Sadly wargaming has fallen apart in my country, no one plays any more.
@johnmannich4978 it can be really fun if you're playing with the right people. Or it can devolve into debates on rule interpretation if you're playing with the wrong people. But a tournament is always fun - basically like a LAN, but without computers. I enjoyed DBM, but no one plays that anymore. I think DBMM still has a following in UK and maybe in the States. Flames of War and Bolt Action (both WW2) seem to be the most played rulesets these days. I've always preferred Medieval rulesets personally.
Main unseen strength of Janissary is 0 frame delay like old Mangudai and Kipchak. Current Castle Age Janissary doesn't compensate castle requirement (Knight+Cav Archer+Light Cav is simply better) anymore but Elite Janissary is still very strong but it needs little survivability, 50 hp is a bit low for 55f 60g unit .
Who cares if you only hit with 65% accuracy? And as far as I remember, castle age janissaries dont have 0 frame. They r definitely underpowered units now and need more accuracy something like 70%/80%. Also I believe elite jans need +5 hp in order to be more preferabble than same HP hand cannoneers
@@ConqCapson Castle Age Janissary has 0 frame delay, too. 65% accuracy still bring 80% of the shots which is highest fire power among all units. I think +5 hp is very good, totalling 56 hp (from base 45 hp).
Because they are castle unit I found going only Janissaries takes too long to mass while you are in your power spike. So in Imperial Age I always mixed Janissaries and Hand Cannoneers. They mostly use the same upgrades and complement each other a bit.
One thing to consider against the janissary is that all the resources sunk into upgrading crossbows also benefit cav archers. Turk cav archers are among the best and if you consider that you can easily transition into cav archers from crossbows then one major advantage of age 3 jans over xbows (saved res on techs) is made iffy.
Compared to the janissaries from aoe3 and aoe4 (where they're beefy frontliners that wrecks cavalry), the aoe2 janissary is more of an all purpose glass cannon.
I used to watch u back in 2011-2013 then I got a new desk and lost my desktop... I had the aoe collection or something, started watching again like 3 years ago. 10/10 every video I watch is nostalgic for me.
I think they should add one range to the elite Janissary upgrade, which would make the upgrade even more appealing and would put them on equal ground with the late game India hand cannons… just my opinion :)
Could even call it Nizam-I Cedit and change unit. More stats, more accuracy etc. IRL, Janissaries were almost replaced with the Nizam-I Cedit army but rebelled and had the Sultan killed. Also, that Nizam-I Cedit army fought Napoleon and came out on top when Napoleon was invading Egypt.
You focused on answering question if Janis are better choice over hand cannons, but I think you should be also comparing jannis to Turk CA as they are also alternate option for Turks to pair up with hussars in a late game. I think Elite Jannis could use some buff(s) in future patch at least in cost reduction and creation time or elese turk CA always will be chosse over jannis.
Agreed. The lost of 1 range in castle make them even more of a niche unit for very specific scenario. Either make Janis have higher innate melee armour (3), or make their missed shot still do 100% damage or something, similar that to Arambai. My most left field proposal would be give Janissary the ability to switch to melee attack similar to Ratha, with strength equal to M@A for regular Janis and 2H sword for Elite Janis. But retain the current range balancing.
In castle age jannies are a trap now. I never make them since the nerf unless I have to build a castle for other reasons (ie I'm being castle dropped myself). Which means Turks are trash in castle age now and have become very one dinensional - their generic CA has no Bonus and you can't afford light cav as well in castle.
Janissaries still feel quite weak compared to hand canoneers. Same hp and less accuracy for a more expensive unit doesnt make much sense. In many of your examples hand canoneers did much the same work save for the condottiere but well it a direct counter.
i feel this was harsh, turks dont have too much going, that one range removal is a big deal. Especially in team games where turks can be actually viable
I just don’t get the point of janissaries anymore, hand cannon is much better and you can mass much more without having to upgrade them to elite. Why did the devs do this.
I prefered the straight trajectory of old handcanon units, if they added collatedal effects where thw shot will travel an extra 3 tiles and can hit and damage anything in its way theyd be so much better, they can balance with reduced bonus and damage, this will mean u have to mass handcanon units for better effect against large groups of enemies which is how to use em
Losing that 1 range seems uncalled for. Wouldn't say they were overpowered considering it's the Turks. They only had a few things going for them in castle age anyway. They'd had that since the original game... not a change I like
It really sucks, it’s made the Turks so much weaker. And janissaries are just objectively worse than hand cannoneers now making their unique unit useless.
Jannisaries shoud have bonus against cavalry and more hp espescially in imperial version to make them closer to history accurate. And it also will fit with destroy of Byzantium and their UU
I love my Janissaries because I usually mass archer units. If I can get Hand Cannoneers and I know I'm going to have to go that far, I always plan to mass as many as possible. With micro, they can take out anything. If you split them into smaller groups, they'll automatically target different enemies and do much less overkill.
Maybe in Castle Age, it's better to use the cavalry archer, combined with other cavalry units, given that due to the unique tech, it becomes hard to kill and it outmaneuvers many units.
CA needs mass, regular xbow is easier to mass. You use a lot of wood in castle. (thumb ring, ballistics, farms) I think it comes down to mobility. Need raiding and mobility? Lightcav - CA Pure muscle with universal siege? Jana - bombardC Against mezo? Handcanon - Hussar - bombard
I think they should buff the hp for castle age and imperial age to compensate for the castle age nerf. In imperial age you don't want to invest in a castle and produce instead of stuff like trebs. Maybe reduce some of the bonus damage too from skirms and anti-gunpowder bonuses. You need a reason to go jannisaries in castle age to justify using them in imp since they perform similar enough to hand cannons
How about a cost decrease, it should help you mass them and save the extra cost for some leeway. Then elite ones still costs same so you have to make sure you have to save resources while you can.
@@temkin9298 It would help some but I think the unit should be pricy. Normal unique units are like 60 food 20 or 30 gold (at least in AoC). 1 castle production for a unit with 7 range is meh now tho. I think having the unit be stronger vs counter units and overall more hp would make sense. Turks have gunpowder hp bonus so having them be tanky would be cool, although they would have to work out how strong. You're probably not going 3 tc castle drop as opposed to 1 TC castle drop anyway since getting stone early is an investment. Producing from 1 castle and 1 TC should be fine so cheaper wouldn't help that much on first castle.
Janissaries are my favourite Unique Unit. its true one can argue that Mangudai is better, and i love them too, but when i have my janissaries i feel happy and unstoppable :)
I used to play a strategy game back in the early 2000s called Tzar: The burden of the crown. In that game, Janissaries were Arabian units, Sword weilding Cavalries with great hp and dmg. They were even better than knights. It was a huge surprise to me as a kid playing Aoe2 to see them with muskets.
All of these comparisons are when you get to middle to late castle age though. Most of the time when you play janissaries it’s early in castle or early in imp. Plus you don’t really play jani’s on an open map against archer-line
I use it on Fortress to fast imp, build like 10-15 janissaries while upping the immediately spam BBC. 15 janissaries easily deal with all the knights enemy might send out.
@@jotfohm4644 mangonels are used often to pressure enemy housewalls and TCs. One word of advice would be to always put them on no attack stance and use target fire.
Yes, and I even noticed something nice way back in the day. In the first Barbarousa campaign, the mangonel won't fire on its own if it could kill my units.
I feel like this is an unneeded nerf to turks. Main problem with turks was always that they were a resource intensive civ with high castle/early imp potential but if they could not win quick they would lose in the long run once out of gold. Feels like they're going to just plummet in the rankings now that castle jannisaries, their power unit, suck.
Yeah, I played Turks as one of my mains since AOE2 first released in 1999. Janissaries never felt like an auto-win unit like massed Mangudai or O.G. Conquistadors did. (I killed a LOT of Franks players as Spanish. A. LOT.) Frankly, I have no idea what they were thinking ripping away one of their few remaining strong units.
@@atmosdwagon4656They have no trash units and they nerfed their unique unit to the point where using hand cannoneers is just objectively better in almost every way. Completely ridiculous.
I think it's really important to keep in mind the larger picture when you talk about specific units, though it's mentioned at the end, you really have to take Janissaries in context with Turk light cavalry really helping round them out and padding over any weakness. You really shouldn't ever be going a mono-unit comp unless we're exclusively talking about early castle, in which case you're still talking about a "comp" of a castle, forward villagers able to build something else, and Janissaries. So basically, units really shouldn't ever be working alone, and I think that focusing more on how they incorporate into the broader Turk strategy is a lot more interesting than just taking everything in a vacuum, which we've also kind of seen when talking about Scorpions in the past with putting something in front of them, and talking about the Romans with their combination of Centurion and Legion.
True enough but this is trying to be as "apples to apples" as possible. Its less how good are jannys and more "are they more viable than xbow in castle and handcannon in imperial". The role is the same for all addressed units in every other way so unless there was a major difference its unlilely to be brougut up. Example if you were talking spanish Conqs vs handcannons, well, they can keep up with cav is worth mentioning as a maior difference but they are very similar roles here for turks
This wasn't a civ overview though, it was a sole focus on the actual unit. If you want a proper civ overview that talks about all the units in context to what the civ has to offer then go look for that. It's a bit strange that i see these comments on every video spirit makes of single unit overviews. Of course you have to compare the unit to other units and what they can do. Best part is that at the end he even mentions that the only time you reall go mono is on the ONE self contained strategy so he addressed your particular issue, followed by how they could be used in combination with the rest of the turk roster. There is value in taking things in a vacuum because it teaches you more about the units actual strength and weaknesses. If you understand what a unit is, you can better put it into context with the rest of the civ. And again, just go watch the turk civ overview if you want an indepth discussion about light cavalry.
3:36 that one guy "janissary" missing the target by half a screen in distance so like 50-100 meter away "game meassurement". I guess janissariss problem is not accuracy, it is short " training" period.
Jans do 12 damage, take 5 shots to kill HC do 17 damage, take 4 shots to kill Eagles do 8 damage to Jans, take 7 hits to kill Eagles do 9 damage to HC, take 5 hits to kill So, about the same? HC kill quicker, but also die quicker
I didn't mind the nerf, but they should have given something else to Turks to compensate - the unit is OP in castle, not the civ. Give them something to support their CA or camel play.
Spirit, given that we are all stats nerds, I think mayhe you should factor accuracy in your comparisons. For instance, instead of just comparing how many shots would it require to kill an unit, you can talk about how many "effective shots". You can do this very easily by considering a binomial distribution where the probability of success is the accuracy of the unit, and then calculating the likelihood that unit would be killed within a certain amount of shots
That doesn't take in range as an account. Fighting cavalry you can assume a 95% accuracy give or take as they will be well within accuracy falloff range. Fighting archers could be very different. Point being is that there are too many variables to account for accuracy as just cutting their dps by half because they have 50% accuracy isn't accurate in practice, nor is giving them a made up % number based on what you assume would be average engagement range. Personally i think it's better to just assume they have 100% accuracy and account for falloff after that. Especially since these tests don't include micro either, so it's clearly a "Optimal dps achievable" kinda test.
@@starcraft2own Yeah I'm not arguing that he should just get rid of the way he compares it, it is necessary to have the raw numbers, but I think it can be a good variable to add, especially when comparing range vs range units.
@@zara02caan I mean, i guess i don't disagree. It's an interesting number to add next to it, especially since there are a lot of units now with subpar accuracy, and new accuracy up techs.
I feel like you are underselling the performance of janissaries against mangonels quite a bit... You only need 4 of them to oneshot a magonel and 40 xbow to oneshot a magonel. Same is true for villagers. And their high attack helps to brake walls or destroy buildings very fast. Also you cant dodge janissary shots like you can xbow/skirm shots
I think the main thing that makes janisarys so great is, the turk composition and gameplan itself. Get a defensive castle start mak8ng janisarys and immediately hit hard. Once your enemy switches to skirms or siege you can easily make a stable and get a few light cav without any upgrades but having the +1p armor to distract and counter those. While the enemy tries to deal with those your janisary numbers get m9re and more dangerous until you eventually click up drop a castle on his face and start spamming hussars with the janis holding the critical positions of the map.
So JANNI-raly you want to adapt at what units you want to use against what civ here as Turk. Overall they are a force to be reckoned with once Imperial Age first hits.
I remember when I downloaded "Forgotten Empires" (now "The Forgotten"), it started to annoy me, that the units didn't have a more realistic speed when walking and reloading. Then a few other things, but I live.
It's just obnoxious that janissaries don't benefit from the vast majority of ranged upgrades but still take all the bonus damage as if they were an archer is silly. Janissaries have almost never been shown to be a crucial unit in higher end games. They're underpowered, overpriced, and truly an empty shell. Even if they were 90% accurate they would still rarely be built in competitive games. They should be either faster or even tougher as well as more accurate, then they may actually start to become fun and really shake up the stale meta.
One thing I personally think is worth mentioning is that since janissaries have higher base damage, they're better against buildings than hand cannoneers. This helps especially against house walls or archery ranges. Keep in mind, though, I play AI matches for fun, not ladder matches.
I dont think it lead them anywhere. Even with 100% accuracy they will miss all their shots if vector is bad. They need somethig more revolutionary. +1dmg or fire rate or take -50% dmg from infantries etc. idk..
There’s a counter to every unit in the game what are you talking about just knock them down with halbs & use skirms or archers to kill the dismounted konniks
Turks should definitely get pikemen and onagers. Otherwise, janissaries and hand cannoers may be affected by artillery, or cavalry must be affected by the sipahi bonus, otherwise they turn into a dull race without gold.
If you are micro kiting use the split formation then attack move and they will break into two groups and each attack an individual target. It reduces overkill
Check out the build time for Janissary--about 12 seconds with the game at Normal speed, 8 w/Conscription. Also, the Jans have an attack of 17 w/Elite Jans at 22. No single human unit can match that.
You missed on pointing out how Jannisaries deal very effectively with mangonels and scorpions, needing just four or five to one shot one of them instead of the several dozen shots the xbows need to do the same, even tho they are somewhat comparably squishy
That nerf kinda make them not that interesting anymore does it? Dev should trade it with something for that nerf. Idk maybe more accuracy or maybe give them inv. bonus like HC does.
SotL, I haven't played AoEII in like three years. I don't think I will play again. I'm still watching your stuff. You should look into narrating school books or something.
The main takeaway I got from this video is that Conquistadors' accuracy is too high for such an overpowered unit. Firing from foot is less accurate than doing so from atop an easily spooked horse? Also, losing 1 range did a lot of damage to the Janissaries' main appeal. They should get a bonus against something other than rams to make them better fit the Turkish army - why even bother paying so much for the upgrade in Imperial Age, not to mention all the castles, when you can train HCs the minute you finish going up the age, and those are more accurate and have an infantry bonus out of the box? It seems like too steep a cost for 5 more attack -against units you shouldn't be making gunpowder against anyway- and a bit more toughness for, again, a unit that shouldn't be at the frontlines. Now, maybe if the janissary had more armor, they could better represent the vanguard of the Ottoman army, but as squishy as they are, I doubt they'll ever fill that role.
Janissaries were already expensive. It was also a pretty weak unit with low accuracy and low hp. Now it's even weaker. The winning rate of Turks in the game is also low. What does this nerf do??
i feel like, with micro being so dramatically effective, the hand cannoner advantage on infantry over the jannisaries becomes nullified, since infantry struggles because of their speed, so i would pick jannissaries everytime if possible.
I feel like the only foot hand cannoneers I can use even mildly effectively is the Spanish version since they Fire faster and Spanish makes me wanna add monks to the back line.
This is another unit for me in mist cases that is op when facing them but kind of rubbish when having them. I will probably never understand turks in AoE2… Imagine an alternative univers where Janissary are given to another civ? Which would be the best civ (synergize or cover weakness) More and more unique units come with a passive added value (shield, charge attack, passive improving other units etc.) Think of a patch in which all UU get such an ability. What would be a suitable for them or turks specificly? Finally, as always: congratulation to another high quality analytic video, keep going!
Wait a second, I believe I remember Hand Cannoneers having a minimum range, like the Mangonel line, which made the Janissaries very much worth it in difficult-to-micro situations since they didn't play headless chicken. This was probably in the original game as well as in the 2010s HD remake, at least at some point. Is that not a thing anymore?
If anyone wants to flex their super smart brain with any age friends you have, the turkish pronunciation of Janissary is a bit different than what we use. Instead of using the western pronunciation (Gian-i-sair-ee) use the more correct pronunciation (Jah-niss-er-ee) but replace the J sound with a Y sound and the ss with a ch. so pronouncing it would look like “Yah-nitch-er-ee”
@Spirit Of The Law, could you maybe explain why the Coustillier (Burgundian castle unit) is oneshotting Cav-Archers? I saw it on TheVipers Stream Highlights 19, 1:30-2:00.
You pop a janissary behind a wall. And everything but rams die. You do need skirmishers to keep archers busy, you do need cannons to keep siege away. But defensively where you can keep hostile units busy dealing with swarms of 'trash' units around the edges, their firepower always felt as good as Archers but with the bonus of oneshotting knights earlier into the death ball. Also ignored here is their firepower against magonels. It's a tough micro job but they do well against their Peirce armour. What i am less sure of is how does accuracy effect such large units where missed shots should still hit?
Janissaries performing better against condottieries is an interesting result of stat balancing. I wonder if it's intentional or just happened naturally?
The fact that Janissaries (atleast for elite) didn't get their iconic hats in DE is still something I'm not over, would've been worth the price of the elite upgrade alone
Hahaha, that's awesome!
It would be nice if jannisaries gets hats after Imperial upgrade ^^
Someone in the mod workshop should make it
There is actually a mod for that!
@@mirzor4053 what's the name of the mod?
When I was young I thought Janissary was a month I hadn't heard of
Month 13th
Other countries call it Smarch (?)
I thought it was January in some south asian language
@@mapoleoin east Asia we just say month 1😂
@@eva-238*1moon
We thought it was Octember
I don't care about their numbers, I just want their hats back!😪
they never had hats
Same I miss the hats
@@eHcOZaXnoob
pelo menos dentro do jogo eles nunca tiveram
@@eHcOZaX you never had a brain
Spirit did fire a lot of infomation in this video, luckily he has 100% accuracy.
I would have loved if you had also specifically compared bohemian (access in castle age) and burgundian (+25% damage increase) handcannons with the (elite) janissary. Especially the Bohemians are a very similar comparison as a handcannons rush plays out very similar to a castle drop into jannissaries.
I would include the Hindustani hand cannoneer as well, lower damage but that extra 2 range makes them my favorite.
Extra range changes it's role only as it wrecks siege, instead siege wrecking hindustani handcanons.
I get this changes the unit, but 1 age eaelier Handcanon vs nonE Jana, and higher damage handcanon vs EJana is more intresting.
Bohemians HC seem like such a better all-around unit compared to Janissaries. You only need one tech (but, even with the cost of the university, it's about the same amount of resources as a castle), you can train them out of archery ranges and they come with an infantry bonus and better accuracy? Sign me up.
@@pwn3dname takes too long to get chemistr, and still weak to Kt spamm.
@@MrDemirarslan chemistry takes about as long to research as a castle takes to build. It’s one more step (the university) but you don’t need to have all of the resources up front and you’re using the resources you were already collecting instead of needing to move bills to stone.
And whatever time you lose building the uni + researching chemistry is made up by the fact you need less time to build a critical mass of HCs, which is very important.
I kinda figured it wasn't going to happen, but I was really hoping that the royal janissary unit from the editor would've made an appearance for purely comparison sake. In a video about how effective janissaries are in normal game, I know why it didn't, but it would've been funny.
Low accuracy is a double sided sword, in low number unit fights its bad, but if you focusfire with overkill its good
Yes, especially because focus-firing synergizes with kiting, and despite their medium move speed, elite janissaries are one of the best kiting units in the game since they're the only non-siege non-ship unit with zero frame delay, giving them perfectly efficient mobility while attacking.
I don't understand why jannisarries have the lowest accuracy among all gunpowder units. Before the nerf, I thought like okay, they are long range units. Now they lost their range. Spanish have conquistator, Bohemians can create hand cannoneers at Castle Age, jannisarries are not special anymore.
idk what they were thinking lol
What’s the point of using Janissaries over hand cannoners, I honestly don’t get it.
This game is a great historical learning tool. As everyone knows, a 4th-century Gothic warlord's personal retinue would easily defeat a disciplined battle-line of rifle-armed janissaries.
Ser stroome 🗿
You're talking about the same game where riderless elephants head-butt stone gates until they catch on fire.
11111111
I mean they also own rifle, goth have access to hand canoneer
@@Mortreed they should definitely lose them
How did they know my one weakness was a bullet from their gun!?
In my wargaming days - I played Ottomans a lot. My Janissaries won me so many games, although I was playing a 15th century list where they are still archers, with a Serbian ally for some knights.
Are you talking about a tabletop game or what is wargaming?
@@C2TheHill2910 most likely gaznavid is talking about tabletop wargaming. (in germany "wargaming" is an unpopular descriptor, so tabletop (the term) is almost a stand in for things like Warhammer, Flames of war, pike and shot ... . In english speaking gaming "tabletop" means anything played on a table (boardgames,Cardgames...), while Warhammer and so on are called "wargames".
Which one did you played? Would you recomend it?
@johnmannich4978 correct, table top figure gaming. I used to play DBM. I played some Flames of War, but I always found the rules to be too unbalanced - maybe because I was stupid enough to play Easy 8's in Late War. Sadly wargaming has fallen apart in my country, no one plays any more.
@johnmannich4978 it can be really fun if you're playing with the right people. Or it can devolve into debates on rule interpretation if you're playing with the wrong people. But a tournament is always fun - basically like a LAN, but without computers. I enjoyed DBM, but no one plays that anymore. I think DBMM still has a following in UK and maybe in the States. Flames of War and Bolt Action (both WW2) seem to be the most played rulesets these days. I've always preferred Medieval rulesets personally.
Am gonna ponder if the AoE II: DE devs are gonna read the "Janissaries need their hats back" comments. This aside, another entertaining vid, SotL.
Main unseen strength of Janissary is 0 frame delay like old Mangudai and Kipchak. Current Castle Age Janissary doesn't compensate castle requirement (Knight+Cav Archer+Light Cav is simply better) anymore but Elite Janissary is still very strong but it needs little survivability, 50 hp is a bit low for 55f 60g unit .
Who cares if you only hit with 65% accuracy? And as far as I remember, castle age janissaries dont have 0 frame. They r definitely underpowered units now and need more accuracy something like 70%/80%. Also I believe elite jans need +5 hp in order to be more preferabble than same HP hand cannoneers
@@ConqCapson Castle Age Janissary has 0 frame delay, too. 65% accuracy still bring 80% of the shots which is highest fire power among all units. I think +5 hp is very good, totalling 56 hp (from base 45 hp).
@@Asterix958 castle age jan does have frame delay
Because they are castle unit I found going only Janissaries takes too long to mass while you are in your power spike. So in Imperial Age I always mixed Janissaries and Hand Cannoneers. They mostly use the same upgrades and complement each other a bit.
One thing to consider against the janissary is that all the resources sunk into upgrading crossbows also benefit cav archers. Turk cav archers are among the best and if you consider that you can easily transition into cav archers from crossbows then one major advantage of age 3 jans over xbows (saved res on techs) is made iffy.
I always had problems countering Janisarries, so I am very happy for this nice video!! Thank you :))
As a Turk main, ua-cam.com/video/Yx2cLl0pisQ/v-deo.html&ab_channel=GozGeek
didnt you use skirmishers?
Compared to the janissaries from aoe3 and aoe4 (where they're beefy frontliners that wrecks cavalry), the aoe2 janissary is more of an all purpose glass cannon.
if ur putting aoe4 jans against cav that is a capital p Problem
idk what you are on about but aoe4 jans is definition of glass cannon. aoe3 jan ftw
I used to watch u back in 2011-2013 then I got a new desk and lost my desktop... I had the aoe collection or something, started watching again like 3 years ago. 10/10 every video I watch is nostalgic for me.
I think they should add one range to the elite Janissary upgrade, which would make the upgrade even more appealing and would put them on equal ground with the late game India hand cannons… just my opinion :)
agreed 100%
Could even call it Nizam-I Cedit and change unit. More stats, more accuracy etc.
IRL, Janissaries were almost replaced with the Nizam-I Cedit army but rebelled and had the Sultan killed.
Also, that Nizam-I Cedit army fought Napoleon and came out on top when Napoleon was invading Egypt.
You focused on answering question if Janis are better choice over hand cannons, but I think you should be also comparing jannis to Turk CA as they are also alternate option for Turks to pair up with hussars in a late game.
I think Elite Jannis could use some buff(s) in future patch at least in cost reduction and creation time or elese turk CA always will be chosse over jannis.
Agreed. The lost of 1 range in castle make them even more of a niche unit for very specific scenario.
Either make Janis have higher innate melee armour (3), or make their missed shot still do 100% damage or something, similar that to Arambai.
My most left field proposal would be give Janissary the ability to switch to melee attack similar to Ratha, with strength equal to M@A for regular Janis and 2H sword for Elite Janis. But retain the current range balancing.
@@Bloodark124 That sounds perfect honestly, just like aoe3. it would give them a purpose beyond just being slightly different Hand canons.
In castle age jannies are a trap now. I never make them since the nerf unless I have to build a castle for other reasons (ie I'm being castle dropped myself). Which means Turks are trash in castle age now and have become very one dinensional - their generic CA has no Bonus and you can't afford light cav as well in castle.
Makes me remember all the sick paintball custom maps in original AOE2 online. Soldier store was also such a sick map.
lol reading subtitles ... its pretty much hit or miss, fitting for this video
Janissaries still feel quite weak compared to hand canoneers. Same hp and less accuracy for a more expensive unit doesnt make much sense. In many of your examples hand canoneers did much the same work save for the condottiere but well it a direct counter.
i feel this was harsh, turks dont have too much going, that one range removal is a big deal. Especially in team games where turks can be actually viable
I just don’t get the point of janissaries anymore, hand cannon is much better and you can mass much more without having to upgrade them to elite. Why did the devs do this.
I prefered the straight trajectory of old handcanon units, if they added collatedal effects where thw shot will travel an extra 3 tiles and can hit and damage anything in its way theyd be so much better, they can balance with reduced bonus and damage, this will mean u have to mass handcanon units for better effect against large groups of enemies which is how to use em
Losing that 1 range seems uncalled for. Wouldn't say they were overpowered considering it's the Turks. They only had a few things going for them in castle age anyway. They'd had that since the original game... not a change I like
It really sucks, it’s made the Turks so much weaker. And janissaries are just objectively worse than hand cannoneers now making their unique unit useless.
"They've done studies, you know. 50% of the time, it works every time." - AOE2 Janissaries
Jannisaries shoud have bonus against cavalry and more hp espescially in imperial version to make them closer to history accurate. And it also will fit with destroy of Byzantium and their UU
I love my Janissaries because I usually mass archer units. If I can get Hand Cannoneers and I know I'm going to have to go that far, I always plan to mass as many as possible. With micro, they can take out anything. If you split them into smaller groups, they'll automatically target different enemies and do much less overkill.
"Emphasizing that high attack isn't everything."
Ah, yes, the Rampardos theorem.
Maybe in Castle Age, it's better to use the cavalry archer, combined with other cavalry units, given that due to the unique tech, it becomes hard to kill and it outmaneuvers many units.
CA needs mass, regular xbow is easier to mass. You use a lot of wood in castle. (thumb ring, ballistics, farms)
I think it comes down to mobility.
Need raiding and mobility? Lightcav - CA
Pure muscle with universal siege? Jana - bombardC
Against mezo? Handcanon - Hussar - bombard
Now I wonder how SotL’s favorite civ is holding up these days. “How Good Are Samurai” when?
I would have liked the comparison between turk UU and cav archer
I think they should buff the hp for castle age and imperial age to compensate for the castle age nerf. In imperial age you don't want to invest in a castle and produce instead of stuff like trebs. Maybe reduce some of the bonus damage too from skirms and anti-gunpowder bonuses. You need a reason to go jannisaries in castle age to justify using them in imp since they perform similar enough to hand cannons
How about a cost decrease, it should help you mass them and save the extra cost for some leeway. Then elite ones still costs same so you have to make sure you have to save resources while you can.
@@temkin9298 It would help some but I think the unit should be pricy. Normal unique units are like 60 food 20 or 30 gold (at least in AoC). 1 castle production for a unit with 7 range is meh now tho. I think having the unit be stronger vs counter units and overall more hp would make sense. Turks have gunpowder hp bonus so having them be tanky would be cool, although they would have to work out how strong. You're probably not going 3 tc castle drop as opposed to 1 TC castle drop anyway since getting stone early is an investment. Producing from 1 castle and 1 TC should be fine so cheaper wouldn't help that much on first castle.
Janissaries are my favourite Unique Unit. its true one can argue that Mangudai is better, and i love them too, but when i have my janissaries i feel happy and unstoppable :)
I used to play a strategy game back in the early 2000s called Tzar: The burden of the crown. In that game, Janissaries were Arabian units, Sword weilding Cavalries with great hp and dmg. They were even better than knights.
It was a huge surprise to me as a kid playing Aoe2 to see them with muskets.
wtf kinda jannisary is that
"You get the sense that power spikes into gunpowder units are the Turk's whole deal"
yup, checks out
All of these comparisons are when you get to middle to late castle age though. Most of the time when you play janissaries it’s early in castle or early in imp. Plus you don’t really play jani’s on an open map against archer-line
I use it on Fortress to fast imp, build like 10-15 janissaries while upping the immediately spam BBC. 15 janissaries easily deal with all the knights enemy might send out.
Video idea: how to effectively use the Mangonel line. I almost never use them because i end up killing my own units verses the enemy ones
💔💔
you can effectively use them by aiming well on enemy troops and using large amounts of cheap trash units yourself.
@daarom3472 I know that, thanks, But it is a broken heart u said u almost never use them
@@jotfohm4644 mangonels are used often to pressure enemy housewalls and TCs. One word of advice would be to always put them on no attack stance and use target fire.
Yes, and I even noticed something nice way back in the day. In the first Barbarousa campaign, the mangonel won't fire on its own if it could kill my units.
I feel like this is an unneeded nerf to turks. Main problem with turks was always that they were a resource intensive civ with high castle/early imp potential but if they could not win quick they would lose in the long run once out of gold.
Feels like they're going to just plummet in the rankings now that castle jannisaries, their power unit, suck.
Yeah, I played Turks as one of my mains since AOE2 first released in 1999. Janissaries never felt like an auto-win unit like massed Mangudai or O.G. Conquistadors did. (I killed a LOT of Franks players as Spanish. A. LOT.)
Frankly, I have no idea what they were thinking ripping away one of their few remaining strong units.
@@atmosdwagon4656They have no trash units and they nerfed their unique unit to the point where using hand cannoneers is just objectively better in almost every way. Completely ridiculous.
@@Prometheus7272 yeah, Turks are now 'Discount Berbers' due to the change.
I think it's really important to keep in mind the larger picture when you talk about specific units, though it's mentioned at the end, you really have to take Janissaries in context with Turk light cavalry really helping round them out and padding over any weakness. You really shouldn't ever be going a mono-unit comp unless we're exclusively talking about early castle, in which case you're still talking about a "comp" of a castle, forward villagers able to build something else, and Janissaries. So basically, units really shouldn't ever be working alone, and I think that focusing more on how they incorporate into the broader Turk strategy is a lot more interesting than just taking everything in a vacuum, which we've also kind of seen when talking about Scorpions in the past with putting something in front of them, and talking about the Romans with their combination of Centurion and Legion.
True enough but this is trying to be as "apples to apples" as possible. Its less how good are jannys and more "are they more viable than xbow in castle and handcannon in imperial". The role is the same for all addressed units in every other way so unless there was a major difference its unlilely to be brougut up. Example if you were talking spanish Conqs vs handcannons, well, they can keep up with cav is worth mentioning as a maior difference but they are very similar roles here for turks
This wasn't a civ overview though, it was a sole focus on the actual unit. If you want a proper civ overview that talks about all the units in context to what the civ has to offer then go look for that. It's a bit strange that i see these comments on every video spirit makes of single unit overviews. Of course you have to compare the unit to other units and what they can do. Best part is that at the end he even mentions that the only time you reall go mono is on the ONE self contained strategy so he addressed your particular issue, followed by how they could be used in combination with the rest of the turk roster.
There is value in taking things in a vacuum because it teaches you more about the units actual strength and weaknesses. If you understand what a unit is, you can better put it into context with the rest of the civ. And again, just go watch the turk civ overview if you want an indepth discussion about light cavalry.
Oh god that last pun at the end.. such a dadjoke :P
3:36 that one guy "janissary" missing the target by half a screen in distance so like 50-100 meter away "game meassurement".
I guess janissariss problem is not accuracy, it is short " training" period.
lmao
Look at em swinging the gun around and fire from hip. They don't even give a shit.
@@aaaaaaaard9586they just need to live in the US for a month or so to get up to 100% accuracy
Would have honestly liked to see a comparison with fu Inca eagles and check which of HCs or Jans do better :)
Jans do 12 damage, take 5 shots to kill
HC do 17 damage, take 4 shots to kill
Eagles do 8 damage to Jans, take 7 hits to kill
Eagles do 9 damage to HC, take 5 hits to kill
So, about the same? HC kill quicker, but also die quicker
Hc is better than janiss
Little known fact: they deal bonus 10 damage against the Ottoman Sultan
I didn't mind the nerf, but they should have given something else to Turks to compensate - the unit is OP in castle, not the civ. Give them something to support their CA or camel play.
Spirit, given that we are all stats nerds, I think mayhe you should factor accuracy in your comparisons. For instance, instead of just comparing how many shots would it require to kill an unit, you can talk about how many "effective shots". You can do this very easily by considering a binomial distribution where the probability of success is the accuracy of the unit, and then calculating the likelihood that unit would be killed within a certain amount of shots
That doesn't take in range as an account. Fighting cavalry you can assume a 95% accuracy give or take as they will be well within accuracy falloff range. Fighting archers could be very different. Point being is that there are too many variables to account for accuracy as just cutting their dps by half because they have 50% accuracy isn't accurate in practice, nor is giving them a made up % number based on what you assume would be average engagement range. Personally i think it's better to just assume they have 100% accuracy and account for falloff after that. Especially since these tests don't include micro either, so it's clearly a "Optimal dps achievable" kinda test.
@@starcraft2own Yeah I'm not arguing that he should just get rid of the way he compares it, it is necessary to have the raw numbers, but I think it can be a good variable to add, especially when comparing range vs range units.
@@zara02caan I mean, i guess i don't disagree. It's an interesting number to add next to it, especially since there are a lot of units now with subpar accuracy, and new accuracy up techs.
The people in charge of nerfs have NO idea what they're doing.
Me on Amazon Tunnel:
"¿Por qué no los dos?"
I feel like you are underselling the performance of janissaries against mangonels quite a bit... You only need 4 of them to oneshot a magonel and 40 xbow to oneshot a magonel. Same is true for villagers. And their high attack helps to brake walls or destroy buildings very fast. Also you cant dodge janissary shots like you can xbow/skirm shots
I think the main thing that makes janisarys so great is, the turk composition and gameplan itself. Get a defensive castle start mak8ng janisarys and immediately hit hard. Once your enemy switches to skirms or siege you can easily make a stable and get a few light cav without any upgrades but having the +1p armor to distract and counter those. While the enemy tries to deal with those your janisary numbers get m9re and more dangerous until you eventually click up drop a castle on his face and start spamming hussars with the janis holding the critical positions of the map.
So JANNI-raly you want to adapt at what units you want to use against what civ here as Turk. Overall they are a force to be reckoned with once Imperial Age first hits.
Janissaries definitely need more buff so it will historically accurate bcs how powerful ottoman were and definitely they need those fancy hats
I remember when I downloaded "Forgotten Empires" (now "The Forgotten"), it started to annoy me, that the units didn't have a more realistic speed when walking and reloading. Then a few other things, but I live.
It was an unnecessary nerf IMHO
It's just obnoxious that janissaries don't benefit from the vast majority of ranged upgrades but still take all the bonus damage as if they were an archer is silly. Janissaries have almost never been shown to be a crucial unit in higher end games. They're underpowered, overpriced, and truly an empty shell. Even if they were 90% accurate they would still rarely be built in competitive games. They should be either faster or even tougher as well as more accurate, then they may actually start to become fun and really shake up the stale meta.
How Good Are Janissaries?
SOTL: No
I remember being confused when I first saw them cuz the icon had a white hat. At the time I had no idea why
One thing I personally think is worth mentioning is that since janissaries have higher base damage, they're better against buildings than hand cannoneers. This helps especially against house walls or archery ranges.
Keep in mind, though, I play AI matches for fun, not ladder matches.
Buffing accuracy a bit might've been a good exchange for reducing range while still being a bit of a nerf. These guys are so expensive.
I dont think it lead them anywhere. Even with 100% accuracy they will miss all their shots if vector is bad. They need somethig more revolutionary. +1dmg or fire rate or take -50% dmg from infantries etc. idk..
Thanks for posting this! Can you please do one for the Bulgarian Konniks? There's no counter to them!
There’s a counter to every unit in the game what are you talking about just knock them down with halbs & use skirms or archers to kill the dismounted konniks
Turks should definitely get pikemen and onagers. Otherwise, janissaries and hand cannoers may be affected by artillery, or cavalry must be affected by the sipahi bonus, otherwise they turn into a dull race without gold.
Accuracy by volume!
Maybe we can discuss in one of the next videos which Civ has the best hand cannoneers. Now there are so many with Civ benefits or Unique Techs.
If you are micro kiting use the split formation then attack move and they will break into two groups and each attack an individual target. It reduces overkill
I will never forgive developers since they dont give the hat that janissaries deserve. And the model exists in the game!
Still missing their important hat.
Janissaries: Who needs bonus damage when just hit harder 😂
idk.. with all the infantry hp buffs and faction specific knightline I think 22 aint no cutting edge for a glass cannon these days
Check out the build time for Janissary--about 12 seconds with the game at Normal speed, 8 w/Conscription. Also, the Jans have an attack of 17 w/Elite Jans at 22. No single human unit can match that.
dps wise many units can tho. They are the medieval stormtroopers
in CA, janisaries kill gates and stone walls easily, that is something that set them appart in arena for the longest time
"I fired a lot of information to you in this video"
Nerfing castle age janissary was maybe the WRONGEST idea after all...Why should i create them ? No reason for this anymore.
I miss the little hats....😢
You missed on pointing out how Jannisaries deal very effectively with mangonels and scorpions, needing just four or five to one shot one of them instead of the several dozen shots the xbows need to do the same, even tho they are somewhat comparably squishy
We should train some hoop throwers, they know how to deal with Janissaries
Unnecessary nerf to janissaries
My paladins and skirms just died to jannisaries :/
thanks, good insights
That nerf kinda make them not that interesting anymore does it? Dev should trade it with something for that nerf. Idk maybe more accuracy or maybe give them inv. bonus like HC does.
SotL, I haven't played AoEII in like three years. I don't think I will play again. I'm still watching your stuff. You should look into narrating school books or something.
The main takeaway I got from this video is that Conquistadors' accuracy is too high for such an overpowered unit. Firing from foot is less accurate than doing so from atop an easily spooked horse?
Also, losing 1 range did a lot of damage to the Janissaries' main appeal. They should get a bonus against something other than rams to make them better fit the Turkish army - why even bother paying so much for the upgrade in Imperial Age, not to mention all the castles, when you can train HCs the minute you finish going up the age, and those are more accurate and have an infantry bonus out of the box?
It seems like too steep a cost for 5 more attack -against units you shouldn't be making gunpowder against anyway- and a bit more toughness for, again, a unit that shouldn't be at the frontlines. Now, maybe if the janissary had more armor, they could better represent the vanguard of the Ottoman army, but as squishy as they are, I doubt they'll ever fill that role.
do houfnice next please. loved this vid
Janissaries were already expensive. It was also a pretty weak unit with low accuracy and low hp. Now it's even weaker. The winning rate of Turks in the game is also low. What does this nerf do??
i feel like, with micro being so dramatically effective, the hand cannoner advantage on infantry over the jannisaries becomes nullified, since infantry struggles because of their speed, so i would pick jannissaries everytime if possible.
If you're seeing overkill, don't click on the unit. Use the "Stop" command.
good job ^^
I feel like the only foot hand cannoneers I can use even mildly effectively is the Spanish version since they Fire faster and Spanish makes me wanna add monks to the back line.
I seen to remember jannies having hats? Didnt they have hats?!
*seem
*Janissaries
Historically they did, but never in the game
royal ones do have a hat
Thats aoe3 janissaries
Holy s*it guys we ams dressed like the f*ckings Klans.
Similar to this, can we get a breakdown of just how godawful the Burmese Arambai is?
It used to be godwonderful back in the day
Yeah but that’s why you mass them up get like 30/40 of them & you melt people
@@endlessgalaxyz Yes, they work as a mangonel with their low accuracy spreaded damage
This is another unit for me in mist cases that is op when facing them but kind of rubbish when having them. I will probably never understand turks in AoE2…
Imagine an alternative univers where Janissary are given to another civ? Which would be the best civ (synergize or cover weakness)
More and more unique units come with a passive added value (shield, charge attack, passive improving other units etc.) Think of a patch in which all UU get such an ability. What would be a suitable for them or turks specificly?
Finally, as always: congratulation to another high quality analytic video, keep going!
Dude, the shittiest unit of the game is the janissaries. Very expensive, low accuracy and low health. Also, there are no bonus hits.
AoE4 has entered the chat.
Wait a second, I believe I remember Hand Cannoneers having a minimum range, like the Mangonel line, which made the Janissaries very much worth it in difficult-to-micro situations since they didn't play headless chicken. This was probably in the original game as well as in the 2010s HD remake, at least at some point. Is that not a thing anymore?
If anyone wants to flex their super smart brain with any age friends you have, the turkish pronunciation of Janissary is a bit different than what we use. Instead of using the western pronunciation (Gian-i-sair-ee) use the more correct pronunciation (Jah-niss-er-ee) but replace the J sound with a Y sound and the ss with a ch. so pronouncing it would look like “Yah-nitch-er-ee”
don´t the bohemians have handcanons in castle age as well? How do these 2 compete with each other?
I think the no of shots vs different units should take into account the distance the unit is from the janissary, since it is quite inaccurate.
@Spirit Of The Law, could you maybe explain why the Coustillier (Burgundian castle unit) is oneshotting Cav-Archers? I saw it on TheVipers Stream Highlights 19, 1:30-2:00.
2:50 Winged Hussar: "Am I joking?"
I use the hussars as meat shields in front of the janissaries with cannon behind.
You pop a janissary behind a wall. And everything but rams die.
You do need skirmishers to keep archers busy, you do need cannons to keep siege away.
But defensively where you can keep hostile units busy dealing with swarms of 'trash' units around the edges, their firepower always felt as good as Archers but with the bonus of oneshotting knights earlier into the death ball.
Also ignored here is their firepower against magonels. It's a tough micro job but they do well against their Peirce armour.
What i am less sure of is how does accuracy effect such large units where missed shots should still hit?
Janissaries performing better against condottieries is an interesting result of stat balancing. I wonder if it's intentional or just happened naturally?