my unkillable summoner pops off at level 2: At first level, pick any eidolon with the shield spell on its list, and take the Protect Companion spell as a cantrip. Play an elf, and take the Ancient Elf heritage, choosing Psychic Dedication. As your psy cantrip, choose the shield spell. At second level, choose the Magical Understudy feat, and teach your eidolon the shield spell. You can now effectively cast shield 3 times onto your eidolon, and potentially block 5 times for it, for a potential (if unlikely) maximum of 25 damage prevented, almost doubling your effective hp at that level!
I'm just starting out with Pathfinder. And this video has great quality behind it. The visuals and information are clear and it makes it easy to understand. Great Job!
“Mr. Crunch I don’t feel so good…”. - Summoned celestial, moments before being exploded (also, the spell gains the evil trait if the target wasn’t mindless lol)
I always evaluate summon spells on the innate spells/abilities of the summon, not their attack capabilities. Essentially you're trading a higher level spell slot for potentially 1-3 lower level spells that you otherwise wouldn't have the diversity of slots to prepare as well as abilities like inspire courage that will help you're party out. The best summons I've found are: Divine List Summon Celestial (6th) - Choral - Inspire Courage or Inspire Competence, L3 Heal, If you have 2 of them from another caster they can harmonize with each other and spit out 2xL3 heroisms. Summon Celestial (6th) - Lillend - Inspire Courage or Inspire Competence, L4 Heal or Inspire Courage. Summon Fiend (5th) - Ostiarius - Inspire Courage replica with a 1 persistent bleed damage. The divine summon spells only default to you're alignment + 1 step if you don't have a diety. If you do then you can pick "Stag Mother of the Forest of Stones (She Who Listens) [N]" who accepts all alignments for followers except for CE. That means you can summon most things off these two spell lists. Primal/Occult List Summon Fey (4th) - Unicorn - 2xL3 Heals Summon Fey (5th) - Satyr - Inspire Courage, Inspire Courage, Triple Time, 1 Action for someone to imbide from the wine skin for +1 item bonus to Will saves and a +3 item bonus to Will saves against fear effects for the following hour (has 8 drinks for everyone). One really good combination you missed is multi-classing into bard. It works best on a free archetype build so you can still pick up summoner feats and bard 1 action cantrips. At higher levels (12+) you can put out dirge of doom, have the summon put out inspire courage, 1 action reinforce eidolon, and strike once with you're eidolon. You can give up dirge of doom or reinforce eidolon if you're eidolon needs to move so you become quite flexible/dynamic in your turns and at L16 you can get effortless concentration to free up 1 more action. You could even grab tandem movement to eek out another free move action for summoner and eidolon. This also means you're getting around the restrictions on you casting two composition cantrips at once (you aren't, you're only casting one but the summon is casting the other) and summoner link cantrips (i.e., can't have reinforce eidolon and boost eidolon up at the same time). There are other 1 action bard cantrips which essentially allow you to be a martial bard by throwing out you're own inspire courage, dirge of doom, hymn of healing, inspire defense, etc. Many of those 1 actions are better than the summoner link cantrips because they will impact all of the party, not just you're eidolon so you can effectively use act together as a way to have a martial that is constantly hasted but can only cast 1 action bard buff spells. You can also use those low level heal spells from your summons on you and keep them in the backline to heal up you're eidolon. For the Lillend or Choral they could even 1 action heal you and 1 action inspire courage if you're desperate for both things. The choral has a 1 action 90ft ranged sonic attack, but its probably not worth talking about. Both have invisibility, so if you know you're walking into a fight you can lose 1-2 rounds for set-up to have this going before kicking down the door. The other thing to mention is the divine spell list actually opens up the staff of healing for some low level healing/support options when you're wave casting progresses. Heal is a great spell for you (1 or 2 action on yourself) and you can do it from anywhere.
Yes to all this!! I had a bit on the lillend and choral and the inspire courage, "...it's like summoning a bard for the party...which is a lot less annoying than actually having a bard in the party." Sadly, it got cut in one of the rewrites. Another interesting summon ability that gets around the lagging ability scores was magic missile. A couple creatures have it, not many. The night hag on the fiend list can cast a 5th level version at will. It would only be a two action version, but that is still 4 missiles for a single action each round. Thanks for the bard build!!
Love your videos mr. Crunch McDabbles! And finally i've got some McDabbles magic for my favorite class - Summoner ! My favorite build to run is Halfling with Plant Eidolon + Beastmaster (Bird) + Wit Swashbuckler. You take "One for all" from Swashbuckler, max out your Diplomacy and Athletics (for eidolon), take Helpful Halfling and Intuitive cooperation (adopted ancestry : Human), you can then dish out +4 circumstance bonuses starting at level 7. Aid your eidolon that has insane reach to lock down the enemy from 15-20 ft range with grapples/trips and your Bird is in the sky doing Flyby attacks. Throw in a summoned Beast from summon animal that has grab or good athletics modifier and now you can observe the enemy suffering from a safe distance, forcing them to burn actions to try and reach your eidolon or focusing their attacks on a summoned creature that you will eventually use final sacrifice on.
My tactic is a brutally powerful Eidolon working like a blender while the Summoner is a buffer and healer. A demon eidolon temptress. Hell I worked it into his character story as a Tiefling with the Eidolon being a hellish echo of their demonic mother. Edit: Also I have her take all the defensive feats because she's very protective of him.
I've always heard people dunk on the summoner for being one of the weakest classes. This was a wonderfully enlightening video about how to take advantage of its unique strengths! It's been a class idea that's always appealed to me so your fun and informative breakdown was just what I was looking for. :)
Thanks so much for this! My party are running a one shot over a long weekend that'll see us play 3 sessions, one at 10th level, one at 15th and one at 20th with the same character. I really wanted to play a summoner but I wasn't sure how to make it work well, mainly due to the spellcasting limitations for the summoner and the shared HP pool, and survive the whole weekend - now I'm so excited to play a summoner with an angel eidolon... :D
Another beneficial quirk: Twice the perception rolls (including lie detecting) and twice the recall knowledge rolls. Granted as someone who plays a summoner, I don't often do this, it just feels too cheesy.
Amazing in-depth analysis as always, mr Legendary Crunch McDabbles sir. The part that wasn't mentioned, either because it doesn't increase the damage or the video was getting too long, is how absolutely amazing Evolution Surge is. You get it at level 1 for free, it has amazing options to help your Eidolon be usefull in all scenarios, hightenes as you level for free AND allows you get insane reach WITHOUT getting Clumsy for it.
I never thought about saving Protect Eidolon until my last action. By the way, if the boss chooses to ignore my summoned minion that's a free flanking bonus for my friends. The minion is doing its job. I usually use summons for utility spells or missing skills, though.
There is a way to summon without an alignment. First, convince the GM to include experimental cryptid in the game. Second, get the arcane spell list, for the summon construct. With this, increasing the creature's level by one, you can summon all common creatures in the bestiary. Have fun.
Summoner is completely wild! And that’s without touching on the shenanigans from Steed Form/Tandem Movement and (yes, I’ll say it) Tandem Strike! Edit: Just curious, think we’ll ever get to see a Witch study done? Be interesting seeing someone work out some optimization with familiars/specific familiars/hexes.
Now that is hilarious. Any 'unkillable' options like this for the Primal or Arcane spell lists? since Plant, Fey, and Dragon archons are more generalist compared to the divine list givers. I will say though, having a skeleton edilon as a skeleton sounds hilarious.
That build at the end looks really cool. I wonder if there are any fiends with similarly powerful options, since it could be more appropriate for a demon eidolon. Still I definitely want to try this class out. Maybe I'll go Angel when I get a chance now.
How do you get +7 on the Ability Scores? Start with 18 for +4, Boost at 5 and 10 to get 20(+5), Then further boost at 15 and 20 to get 22(+6). Where is that extra +1 coming from at 17 on your chart.
@@LegendaryCMD Ah nice. I haven't played any high level campaigns so didn't look that closely at high level gear. I think I misread them back when I started and just thought of them as items that increased your stats to a flat number of 18, much like similar items in D&D that make your ability score a set amount. Combine that with other breakdowns I've seen of what your attack prof can max out at for level 20 and most don't seem to include the Apex item so they have +6. But in PF2e every +1 counts :).
@@PyroMancer2k i haven't got to 17th level yet but enough people have mentioned the apex items that I believe it is assumed you are going to get one of these, like other gear...striking runes stc. it is a nice boost there at 17th or 18th level or whenever you can affor one...and then you get another +1 boost (probably, depending on your abilites etc) at 20th level. hood to hear from you my friend, glad you are well!!
I can't find final sacrifice in the secrets of Magic book only a small note about it being an elemental spell, actually I can't find anything , could you help ?
Final Sacrifice is a spell in the Advanced Players Guide page 219. I usually use the Archives of Nethys to find things because it's free and it's an all encompassing data base. Because of that I don't usually even realize which books I'm getting stuff from until I cut and paste the feat or spell into the video. It didn't even dawn on me until right now that that wasn't in Secrets of Magic or that it would confuse people. I want to get better at clarifying which books this stuff is coming from. Feel free to shoot any more questions my way!!
@@LegendaryCMD here again, I'm looking at the Hound archon and I can see it has the Retributive Strike and for spell it has dimension door but I can't find true strike
@@luisalbertoquirozortiz614 the hound archon is no good. You want the horned archon. It has true strike three times and touch of charity. The retributive strike is awesome but it won't work with a summon. Summoned creatures only have two actions. They can't use reactions...sad to say.
You miscalculated the HP on the example dwarf Barbarian. Barbarians gain 12 HP from their class per level. He should be getting 180 HP from his class. He’s still up, but a stiff wind will knock him down. 20:34
Well, I cannot believe how shitty this class is. What's the point in having 2 bodies if you have to share your action pool? A relatively high hp pool doesn't contribute much, since the defenses of both the summoner and the pet are suboptimal compared to a real front liner. On top of that the life-link is a huge liability. By focusing down either character will remove both from the battle. The only case where an ability like this would be useful if you have access to regeneration or % life steal on the pet. Next issue - why are summon spells so shitty? Bringing in 1 weak ass mob is pointless - just as you described. Who designed this shit? I would not have a problem with summoning weaker mobs if you could bring in at least 4 or 5 with a single spell (since you have access to only 2). As the saying goes - quantity has a quality of its own, so having a huge swarm of mobs that can surround and harass the enemy can be useful, even if they only deal chip damage or distract the enemy so your pet and the other party members can do the real damage. I think this is not a good class. I love summoning and pet classes but I would never play this garbage. The Diablo 2 Necromancer is a much better designed summoner. - having access to multiple summons that fill multiple roles - check - huge fucking army on the field seeking out and destroying your enemies - check - synergy with other abilities and players - check - summons act independently and does not fuck with the action economy of the player - check - even the life-link is done better with the blood golem, because of the %lifesteal
yeah, if they gave the summoner even a plus one to the level of creatures they could summon i think it would have helped. also, letting the summoned monsters use their reactions would have been a nice benefit. it feels bad having to use those janky abilities to get something useful but that's the way it is I guess. for what it's worth, i still liked the class
my unkillable summoner pops off at level 2:
At first level, pick any eidolon with the shield spell on its list, and take the Protect Companion spell as a cantrip.
Play an elf, and take the Ancient Elf heritage, choosing Psychic Dedication. As your psy cantrip, choose the shield spell.
At second level, choose the Magical Understudy feat, and teach your eidolon the shield spell.
You can now effectively cast shield 3 times onto your eidolon, and potentially block 5 times for it, for a potential (if unlikely) maximum of 25 damage prevented, almost doubling your effective hp at that level!
YES!! i love that!!
I'm just starting out with Pathfinder. And this video has great quality behind it. The visuals and information are clear and it makes it easy to understand. Great Job!
Babe wake up! New Crunch McDabbles video just dropped!
Babe…why did the video start at the end when I clicked it?
“Mr. Crunch I don’t feel so good…”.
- Summoned celestial, moments before being exploded (also, the spell gains the evil trait if the target wasn’t mindless lol)
Plant eidolons are my fav! The reach shenanigans are too fun and actually effective.
I always evaluate summon spells on the innate spells/abilities of the summon, not their attack capabilities. Essentially you're trading a higher level spell slot for potentially 1-3 lower level spells that you otherwise wouldn't have the diversity of slots to prepare as well as abilities like inspire courage that will help you're party out. The best summons I've found are:
Divine List
Summon Celestial (6th) - Choral - Inspire Courage or Inspire Competence, L3 Heal, If you have 2 of them from another caster they can harmonize with each other and spit out 2xL3 heroisms.
Summon Celestial (6th) - Lillend - Inspire Courage or Inspire Competence, L4 Heal or Inspire Courage.
Summon Fiend (5th) - Ostiarius - Inspire Courage replica with a 1 persistent bleed damage.
The divine summon spells only default to you're alignment + 1 step if you don't have a diety. If you do then you can pick "Stag Mother of the Forest of Stones (She Who Listens) [N]" who accepts all alignments for followers except for CE. That means you can summon most things off these two spell lists.
Primal/Occult List
Summon Fey (4th) - Unicorn - 2xL3 Heals
Summon Fey (5th) - Satyr - Inspire Courage, Inspire Courage, Triple Time, 1 Action for someone to imbide from the wine skin for +1 item bonus to Will saves and a +3 item bonus to Will saves against fear effects for the following hour (has 8 drinks for everyone).
One really good combination you missed is multi-classing into bard. It works best on a free archetype build so you can still pick up summoner feats and bard 1 action cantrips. At higher levels (12+) you can put out dirge of doom, have the summon put out inspire courage, 1 action reinforce eidolon, and strike once with you're eidolon. You can give up dirge of doom or reinforce eidolon if you're eidolon needs to move so you become quite flexible/dynamic in your turns and at L16 you can get effortless concentration to free up 1 more action. You could even grab tandem movement to eek out another free move action for summoner and eidolon. This also means you're getting around the restrictions on you casting two composition cantrips at once (you aren't, you're only casting one but the summon is casting the other) and summoner link cantrips (i.e., can't have reinforce eidolon and boost eidolon up at the same time). There are other 1 action bard cantrips which essentially allow you to be a martial bard by throwing out you're own inspire courage, dirge of doom, hymn of healing, inspire defense, etc. Many of those 1 actions are better than the summoner link cantrips because they will impact all of the party, not just you're eidolon so you can effectively use act together as a way to have a martial that is constantly hasted but can only cast 1 action bard buff spells. You can also use those low level heal spells from your summons on you and keep them in the backline to heal up you're eidolon. For the Lillend or Choral they could even 1 action heal you and 1 action inspire courage if you're desperate for both things. The choral has a 1 action 90ft ranged sonic attack, but its probably not worth talking about. Both have invisibility, so if you know you're walking into a fight you can lose 1-2 rounds for set-up to have this going before kicking down the door.
The other thing to mention is the divine spell list actually opens up the staff of healing for some low level healing/support options when you're wave casting progresses. Heal is a great spell for you (1 or 2 action on yourself) and you can do it from anywhere.
Yes to all this!! I had a bit on the lillend and choral and the inspire courage, "...it's like summoning a bard for the party...which is a lot less annoying than actually having a bard in the party." Sadly, it got cut in one of the rewrites. Another interesting summon ability that gets around the lagging ability scores was magic missile. A couple creatures have it, not many. The night hag on the fiend list can cast a 5th level version at will. It would only be a two action version, but that is still 4 missiles for a single action each round. Thanks for the bard build!!
How minion use "Inspire Competence"? It is requires "Aid" reaction.
That unkillable build is bullshit. I love it.
Love your videos mr. Crunch McDabbles! And finally i've got some McDabbles magic for my favorite class - Summoner !
My favorite build to run is Halfling with Plant Eidolon + Beastmaster (Bird) + Wit Swashbuckler. You take "One for all" from Swashbuckler, max out your Diplomacy and Athletics (for eidolon), take Helpful Halfling and Intuitive cooperation (adopted ancestry : Human), you can then dish out +4 circumstance bonuses starting at level 7. Aid your eidolon that has insane reach to lock down the enemy from 15-20 ft range with grapples/trips and your Bird is in the sky doing Flyby attacks. Throw in a summoned Beast from summon animal that has grab or good athletics modifier and now you can observe the enemy suffering from a safe distance, forcing them to burn actions to try and reach your eidolon or focusing their attacks on a summoned creature that you will eventually use final sacrifice on.
that build so delicious!!
My tactic is a brutally powerful Eidolon working like a blender while the Summoner is a buffer and healer. A demon eidolon temptress. Hell I worked it into his character story as a Tiefling with the Eidolon being a hellish echo of their demonic mother. Edit: Also I have her take all the defensive feats because she's very protective of him.
I've always heard people dunk on the summoner for being one of the weakest classes. This was a wonderfully enlightening video about how to take advantage of its unique strengths! It's been a class idea that's always appealed to me so your fun and informative breakdown was just what I was looking for. :)
Thanks so much for this! My party are running a one shot over a long weekend that'll see us play 3 sessions, one at 10th level, one at 15th and one at 20th with the same character. I really wanted to play a summoner but I wasn't sure how to make it work well, mainly due to the spellcasting limitations for the summoner and the shared HP pool, and survive the whole weekend - now I'm so excited to play a summoner with an angel eidolon... :D
Mr McDabbles , you keep churning out these great videos. We bow to your genius!
Another beneficial quirk: Twice the perception rolls (including lie detecting) and twice the recall knowledge rolls.
Granted as someone who plays a summoner, I don't often do this, it just feels too cheesy.
First video of yours I ever watched! Super insightful and clever! 10/10 will definitely watch again with the character creator up lol
Amazing in-depth analysis as always, mr Legendary Crunch McDabbles sir.
The part that wasn't mentioned, either because it doesn't increase the damage or the video was getting too long, is how absolutely amazing Evolution Surge is. You get it at level 1 for free, it has amazing options to help your Eidolon be usefull in all scenarios, hightenes as you level for free AND allows you get insane reach WITHOUT getting Clumsy for it.
Thanks for the video Crunch McDabbles! Really enjoy your content.
I never thought about saving Protect Eidolon until my last action.
By the way, if the boss chooses to ignore my summoned minion that's a free flanking bonus for my friends. The minion is doing its job.
I usually use summons for utility spells or missing skills, though.
WELP. Can't wait to watch THIS later.
Unrelenting Maniacal Laughter - My poor, poor party...
There is a way to summon without an alignment. First, convince the GM to include experimental cryptid in the game. Second, get the arcane spell list, for the summon construct.
With this, increasing the creature's level by one, you can summon all common creatures in the bestiary.
Have fun.
Summoner is completely wild!
And that’s without touching on the shenanigans from Steed Form/Tandem Movement and (yes, I’ll say it) Tandem Strike!
Edit: Just curious, think we’ll ever get to see a Witch study done? Be interesting seeing someone work out some optimization with familiars/specific familiars/hexes.
Love the video, instant subscribe 🤩
Now that is hilarious. Any 'unkillable' options like this for the Primal or Arcane spell lists? since Plant, Fey, and Dragon archons are more generalist compared to the divine list givers.
I will say though, having a skeleton edilon as a skeleton sounds hilarious.
This is my exact build for the blood lords campaign we are playing :)
Good video, hope you do Thaumaturge too.
The summoner kinda is like the warlock from 5e. Though unique enough not to compare them directly
The fact that my favorite 5e class is warlock while my favorite Pf2 class is summoner is starting to be really funny right now lol
Great show.
That build at the end looks really cool. I wonder if there are any fiends with similarly powerful options, since it could be more appropriate for a demon eidolon.
Still I definitely want to try this class out. Maybe I'll go Angel when I get a chance now.
i suppose they could be corrupted archons and angels that your demon eidolon lets you summon. that might be more horrifying than the actual fiends!!
Positive comment
optimised thuamaturge builds comparison sometime soon?
How do you get +7 on the Ability Scores? Start with 18 for +4, Boost at 5 and 10 to get 20(+5), Then further boost at 15 and 20 to get 22(+6). Where is that extra +1 coming from at 17 on your chart.
at 17 you can get an apex item
@@LegendaryCMD Ah nice. I haven't played any high level campaigns so didn't look that closely at high level gear. I think I misread them back when I started and just thought of them as items that increased your stats to a flat number of 18, much like similar items in D&D that make your ability score a set amount.
Combine that with other breakdowns I've seen of what your attack prof can max out at for level 20 and most don't seem to include the Apex item so they have +6. But in PF2e every +1 counts :).
@@PyroMancer2k i haven't got to 17th level yet but enough people have mentioned the apex items that I believe it is assumed you are going to get one of these, like other gear...striking runes stc. it is a nice boost there at 17th or 18th level or whenever you can affor one...and then you get another +1 boost (probably, depending on your abilites etc) at 20th level. hood to hear from you my friend, glad you are well!!
I was thinking in a build with Summoner and cathartic mage archtype, do you think It could work?
It's a good class for a dabbler.
Ooooh, Can you do the WITCH next?!?!?!!?
@10:16 you say status bonus from aid, but its a circumstance bonus, thus why its coveted.
I can't find final sacrifice in the secrets of Magic book only a small note about it being an elemental spell, actually I can't find anything , could you help ?
Final Sacrifice is a spell in the Advanced Players Guide page 219. I usually use the Archives of Nethys to find things because it's free and it's an all encompassing data base. Because of that I don't usually even realize which books I'm getting stuff from until I cut and paste the feat or spell into the video. It didn't even dawn on me until right now that that wasn't in Secrets of Magic or that it would confuse people. I want to get better at clarifying which books this stuff is coming from. Feel free to shoot any more questions my way!!
@@LegendaryCMD thanks for that I'll be looking for it
@@LegendaryCMD here again, I'm looking at the Hound archon and I can see it has the Retributive Strike and for spell it has dimension door but I can't find true strike
@@luisalbertoquirozortiz614 the hound archon is no good. You want the horned archon. It has true strike three times and touch of charity. The retributive strike is awesome but it won't work with a summon. Summoned creatures only have two actions. They can't use reactions...sad to say.
You miscalculated the HP on the example dwarf Barbarian. Barbarians gain 12 HP from their class per level. He should be getting 180 HP from his class. He’s still up, but a stiff wind will knock him down. 20:34
great catch! barbarians are tough buggers.
all iam thinking is stand user and small gnome with huge robot that shrinks to his pocket
Was this re-uploaded?
yes
yes, a couple times
I thought you made an ACTUAL build
Summoner is the hardest class to kill in the game? What a joke.
Well, I cannot believe how shitty this class is.
What's the point in having 2 bodies if you have to share your action pool?
A relatively high hp pool doesn't contribute much, since the defenses of both the summoner and the pet are suboptimal compared to a real front liner.
On top of that the life-link is a huge liability. By focusing down either character will remove both from the battle. The only case where an ability like this would be useful if you have access to regeneration or % life steal on the pet.
Next issue - why are summon spells so shitty?
Bringing in 1 weak ass mob is pointless - just as you described. Who designed this shit?
I would not have a problem with summoning weaker mobs if you could bring in at least 4 or 5 with a single spell (since you have access to only 2).
As the saying goes - quantity has a quality of its own, so having a huge swarm of mobs that can surround and harass the enemy can be useful, even if they only deal chip damage or distract the enemy so your pet and the other party members can do the real damage.
I think this is not a good class. I love summoning and pet classes but I would never play this garbage.
The Diablo 2 Necromancer is a much better designed summoner.
- having access to multiple summons that fill multiple roles - check
- huge fucking army on the field seeking out and destroying your enemies - check
- synergy with other abilities and players - check
- summons act independently and does not fuck with the action economy of the player - check
- even the life-link is done better with the blood golem, because of the %lifesteal
yeah, if they gave the summoner even a plus one to the level of creatures they could summon i think it would have helped. also, letting the summoned monsters use their reactions would have been a nice benefit. it feels bad having to use those janky abilities to get something useful but that's the way it is I guess. for what it's worth, i still liked the class