My first bike was a 1990 aluminum Cannondale SM800 “Beast of the East”; the BB height was 13” or 13.5”. The frame was tight like a BMX bike. In 1991 I installed the very first model of Rockshox. The paint was black with orange speckles. Cool bike.
The thing I find that's missing in these Old vs New comparisons is seeing the older bike restomoded a little(or a lot). Throwing a 70mm stem and 780 wide bar on the 2005 bike, maybe a box 1x9 set up etc... You can often use newer tech to make old school bikes a lot of fun.
Did this with a 2006 Fuel 90. After adding a short stem, wide bars, deathgrips and a dual air revelation, i dont feel the need for anything more modern
Of course, there will be differences between both bikes, as the parts on the 26er are outdated and may struggle to handle modern components showcased in the video. However, I still use my Giant XTC 26 variant from 2011, which I have upgraded with modern 26 rims with a 21mm inner width and 28mm outer width. It's equipped with a 26x2.25 Vittoria Barzo tire on both the front and rear wheels, a 690mm flat handlebar, an 80mm -6 stem, and an SR Suntour Epixon Trail 26 Variant TA-Nonboost Fork with an upgraded cartridge. The upgraded cartridge offers slow compression and remote lockout functionality. Additionally, I have a 100mm dropper post, an 11-speed Shimano Deore M5100 rear derailleur with an 11-51t cassette, and a 36t Wolftooth chainring. I've been using this bike on local trails as well as participating in local XCO and XCM races, and it still performs admirably. The rollover capability may suffer due to the 26-inch wheels, but when it comes to technical sections and tight turns, I still prefer the 26er over the 29er. The speed on the 26er is decent, although the 29er is faster, but the 26er offers a much more enjoyable and fun riding experience.
Your dad got his money's worth! We also have to keep in mind that the trails that mtb ride on have changed as well since 2005. Finally, what are the weights of the 2 bikes?
He definitely has, been all over the UK, including multiple Snowdon trips. The new bike is 12.73kg without pedals, the older one is 11.46kg without pedals
Does anyone know of good info. on how the trails have changed? … I didn’t ride trails between 1998 and 2016, and I moved out West in that time, so I don’t have a sense of the evolution of trails… either at a local or national/worldwide level…
I think Mountain biking itself has changed, now it's more about tricksy descending manicured purpose made pistes, 20 years ago, it was more about adventure on mixed terrain (down and up), forest paths, bridleways, green lanes and open country even panniered expedition touring. Also the bikes fitted shorter people better.
Yes, the spirit of the sport seems to have changed. Was more about adventure back then - going out on natural single tracks and getting lost for hours in the remote backcountry. Now it's more about just sending man built features on the same short loop runs with the bros.
I think we have far more choices when it comes to both riding terrain and bike types. You can still do all the exploring you want on a capable XC or short travel trail bike 👍
Different horses for different courses for sure. The trends may have moved on, but you can still ride all that old stuff rather than bike parks if you want to. Tom loves big, all day, natural rides in the Peak and Lake districts just as much as he does bike parks and trail centres!
@Cup & Cone even modern mountain bikes meant for touring are better at technical trails than the old bikes we used to ride. We really just lived with what we were given. Road bike geometry and handling feel hasn't changed much in the last 20yrs beyond what the big tires offer. But mountain bikes now are better for everything from modern trails to what people used to do on bikes that seemed to not be designed by people that knew what they were doing.
Have to say. That's a bad choice of bike from 2005. There were much better options out there far better than that. Fact is back then mountain biking was all about fun. Going down the local woods with your mates and having a big laugh. You had one wheel size as you didn't (and still don't) need anything other than 26" wheels! Now mountain biking has got absolutely ridiculous. There is a ridiculous amount of wheel sizes and combos, ridiculous looonnngg loooow slack geo. Ridiculous electric bikes and electric gizmos. Ridiculous apps like Strava. Don't even get me started on Enduro!! It's all got way too serious and we have forgotten what's it's all really about...Fun!
Back in my day we had a penny farthing and a tin of mandarin oranges and we would be happy all day, kids nowadays just seem to want Walkmans and a bag of disco biscuits, it’s shameful
@@capragoat8119 Miss my walkman! Lol However, I think you are missing the point. Mountain Biking has got way too serious. It's all about serious racing, fast Strava times, Enduro etc. All very very serious and intense. The big fact is the fun element has been lost. This is what mountain biking was all about. If you look at all of the ridiculous wheel sizes, standards, frame materials, geo, electric this and that, different types of mountain bikes (down country FFS!!). It's a absolute joke! No wonder the industry has been struggling for a while now. It's all back firing on them and glad it is it serves them right.
@@myrants5836 agree with racing being the main driver behind bike development, I’m not a fan of 29ers although I have never ridden one, this is a similar sentiment echoed by my riding buddies of the same generation. You are looking at it through a narrow lens though, one look at UA-cam (Pilgrim, 50/01, Loose riders etc) or even just a session down my local woods, shows people are doing exactly the same thing as always, having a laugh on bikes
@@myrants5836 Hey come on. It is like saying that we don't need cars with ABS, air conditioner or infotainment systems. Nobody is forcing you to buy the newer bikes and components or to be competitive on strava. Just do your thing, enjoy mountain biking and let others spend their money. Beginners today have access to a wide variety of options and can get a hardtail with modern geometry without breaking the bank. The rest of us can enjoy the improvements.
This year marks 26 years I have been MTB'ing. Bikes have changed for the better only in terms of capability (decreasing necessary rider skill) and rider comfort, but that change has made the sustainability of the sport worse by lowering the barrier to entry/learning curve. Increasing accessibility and multiplying participation rates isn't all positives and brings its own set of drawbacks.
Its sure easier to get into the sport than ever, but also easier to get in over your head very quickly, especially with e-bikes removing a large portion of the fitness barriers of the past
I bought a brand new Rocky Mountain Element Team SC back in 2006. I rode the heck out of it for years, did upgrades etc. - my dream bike. Overlooked the 29“ discussions, sticking to my dream bike… But then in 2021 I switched to a Rocky Mountain Instinct BC Edition. What can I say. I love it so much. I simply do not want to bike the element any more. The fun level on the instinct, it’s geometry, so much better in every aspect - except the paint. White, red maple leaf paint job was the best ever on a RM. Great that your dad still rides it. I still love the pure ride on my dads Klein Attitude Race from 1991 - such a classy, stiff bike!
Love it! Those red and white maple leaf paint jobs were the business. The older Elements were and still are good bikes, but you're right, once you've ridden a modern bike it's hard to go back. For a bimble about, the oldies can still do the job though, just don't throw them down anything too tech!
I currently own/ride a 2010 element team. It has Easton scandium hydro-formed tubing, full XTR (3×9) which works flawless, Mavic ssc sl 26" wheels with Maxxis Minion 2.3" tubeless. Its a sub 26lb xc. I'm also 61 and have zero desire to go modern. I just can't justify spending 5k min. on a bike.
First mtb was a full rigid 1991Cro-Mo framed Diamond Back Apex. My first suspension mtb was a 2002 Klein Palomino, which is still in good shape and fun to ride. I think the Diamond Back was around $900, and the Klein ran around $2000.
@@FabOnABike Mine was black (might have been a 90 or a 92, can't remember for sure). It came with an XT/DX group mix and had cantilever brakes. It was a nice bike for its time, when trails were more "flowy". I got my Klein right around the time Trek bought them out, so it was one of the last of the Gary Klein manufactured bikes, and is still a joy to ride. I treat it with care, as it's becoming hard to get replacement parts when needed. Klein made beautiful aluminum frames, and I'm glad I've kept the bike up. I sold my Apex to someone in the late 90s. It was my only rigid mtb, and dates from around the time of guys like Ned Overend and John Tomac on the mtb racing circuit of the day.
I’m going to show this to my Ride + Design bike class next Spring. Very informative video showing not just Geometry changes, but also some important tech developments as well. Riding that 2003 Element looks genuinely scary through some of those downhill sections. I’m guessing there were tubes in those 2.1 tires, along with the 30+ PSI needed to prevent pinch flats. This makes me wonder what the next 20 years will bring in terms of meaningful changes that make the bike faster? I doubt (short of adding a motor) the 2043 bike will be over 1 minute faster that the 2023 Element under the same rider.
Awesome, hope your class enjoys it! Riding the old bike was definitely a shock to the system for sure, the geometry more than anything, though lack of a dropper also held it back. The old bike is actually running tubeless, so of course pressures were higher in the tyres. I was running low-20s for the new bike and mid-high 20s for the older bike, so not quite as hard as you'd think! Will certainly be interesting to see where MTBs end up in another 20 years as you say!
This video is fantastic! I started mountain biking in 1989 on a fully rigid Trek 7000 and thought it was the best thing ever invented! I felt as thought I could ride up and over anything on super gnarly trails and so I did! I graduated to a Kona Explosif with a front shock, and then a 2005 Giant NRS 1. After too many years off the trails, I recently returned to the sport and bought a Trek Fuel EX 8. What a difference! All my previous bikes, with the long stems, sent me OTB like a projectile way too many times. I can now see and feel how the geometry of the older bikes puts one in an unnatural and not very logical position. The geometry of the new 2023 models is much more comfortable, functional, and safer! I would love to see a video on doing a comparison of all the major bike designs over time from inception, especially a fully rigid bike. Interestingly, there's also a bit of a trend back to the rigid old days in some respects with the advent of "ATB" bikes, gravel bikes, and "underbiking."
For sure, there's an argument for gravel bikes being very akin to 90's MTBs! Any bike is a fun bike, but you're right when you say the newer bikes are much safer feeling, but still just as much fun!
In terms of weight, the older aluminium 2005 Rocky Mountain Element 70 has a complete weight of 26lb (11.8kg ), whereas the latest carbon fibre Element 70 complete weight is closer to 28lbs (or 12.5kg) ? A few upgrades on the older version can easily make it under 25lbs.
I mean the reality is today's mtn bikes are vastly superior to 20 years ago. There's just no getting around that fact. But it makes sense you wouldn't expect them to get worse over time. I started mountain biking in '91 and we didn't even have suspension forks for the first couple of years. My how things have changed! The bottom line is the less advanced the bike, the more skilled the rider had to be to avoid going over the bars.
No amount of skill was going to make Tom feel less likely to go over the bars on the old bike 🤣 But seriously, modern bikes are indeed so, so capable and very different beasts to their forebears.
My first bike was a brand new, $689 USD, 1987 GT Avalanche. You can, or maybe more accurately can't imagine the changes I've seen. But at the end of the day, it's still just a bike that takes you away from reality for sometimes hours at a time.
I have a Avalanche 3.0 Disc, I bought it a couple of months ago used for little money and restored it. It's different from my more modern Scott Aspect hardtail, however it's still a nice bike to ride
And that's the beauty of any bike, its a means of escape, no matter how old/new or how expensive/cheap it is, just getting out and about is the best bit and sooo many people forget that!
My 1st real Mt bike was a 1998 Rocky Mountain Oxygen and I never ran smaller tires than 2.4", just had to keep the wheel straight so it didn't rub on corners ect. the new geo and taller wheels almost takes some of the fun out of XC trails, the old bikes kept you on your toes
There's a blast from the past! The older rigs certainly keep you on your toes, but we definitely found the newer bike to be the more "fun", just needs even burlier trails to get beyond its limits!
My first MTB was no name, I bought in Germany in some discount shop for 169 EUR in 1999, it was a complete Schrott, on my first ride I've managed to brake a crank, which was made from plastic!, but kept using it till 2003, when I upgraded to proper MTB Merida. Now I have Carrera Kraken hardtail and softail (is it how you call full suspension bike?😂) Voodoo Minustor, love them 💞.
You need to go back in time to where MTBs had no front or rear suspension , rim brakes and crappy tires . i had a schwinn Cimmaron back in the eighties . a super fun bike that teaches one how to read lines a lot better than full suspension , bikes that are very forgiving . learn to ride a hard tail first and then go for suspension . IMO
You definitely have less of a margin for error with older bikes, especially rigid ones. Sometimes though, that rigid fork can be better than a suspension fork, as the steep geometry of an older bike gets even steeper when the fork is bottom out!
My first mountain bike was a Raleigh Mustang back in the mid eighties, I spent all my pocket and paper round money buying Suntour XCD components for it. The first proper mountain bike I like to think was a 1988 Diamond Back Arrival with full XT. Fast forward to now I have a Transition Spur and yes much has changed and for the better this bike is insane…. but one thing has not and that is my sheer enjoyable of being out riding my bike and I can’t see that ever changing.
So true! Bikes may be soooo different nowadays but just getting outside and mucking about on bikes is still as good as it always has been! Having a sick bike like the Spur makes it even better though 😉
Put longer front forks on it to raise the front end and make the geometry slacker, much wider handlebars and a shorter stem, then retest ;) My old 26er is quicker than my 29er (quicker accelerating, quicker turning, higher top end). The only thing the 29er is better at is going up really steep hills and that's due to the longer wheelbase and heavier front wheel.
If you could find a 1-1/8” straight steerer tube fork in 27.5” you could make that 2003 RM a resto-mod mullet! And definitely put a 50mm stem on with some 780mm bars. The thing is that no matter what you try to make an old bike feel better it’s the geometry of a modern bike that really changed the game. I reckon that old RM Element wouldn’t be so bad even with 26” wheels if you had a slacker HA, longer reach and shorter stem, etc it would perform much better. It’s really weird to look at my old bikes and realize we were basically riding road bikes with knobby tires. I can believe I rode a bike with 120mm stem and probably 500mm wide flat bars connected to a 72ish degree head tube angle and stretched out so far that my back was probably parallel with the ground!! No wonder descending a 2* down hill felt frightening!! But hey, what did we know back then!
Didn't realize that Shimano ever made a reverse action derailleur. My Dahon folding bike from 2008 has a Dahon derailleur that also goes to the biggest cog with no cable tension. It's a bit odd and I've never been able to figure out why they did it that way, but it is still reasonably easy to get used to.
The idea was that you are more likely to shift under power when going to a bigger cog. The spring action instead of cable action, meant that that movement was not foreced, but instead just gently ‘nudged’ , thus letting it happen at the extract right time for the shift ramps.
⬆️ that is correct. Shifting to lower gears (bigger cogs) under power was better with Rapid Rise. But then you quickly figure out that when you wanna brake and downshift at the same time, you can’t. I had many Rapid Rise equipped bikes and thought they were great- until I rode a friends bike that had “normal shifting”. I realized right away that i could apply the brakes and thumb shift to lower gears at the same time and quickly ditched my Rapid Rise derailleurs.
In the overall scheme of things, theyre incredibly similar bikes. A slightly better rider on the old bike would crush a slightly weaker rider in the new bike, imo.
Timing couldn't be better - I purchased a Marin Nail-trail in 2002, last bike i bought until last week when I picked up my 2023 Santa Cruz Blur XC; Chalk and Cheese is other world!
For sure trail are very different in a lot of places to what they were 20 years ago, but in a lot of places, they are very similar. Tom and his old man still ride the same local trails now that they did back in the day and aside from being more cut up than they used to be, they're pretty much the same. Might be a fairly unique case, as trail centres and bike parks are very different now, to what they were!
I upgraded the grip to race face lock on, race face pedals, new shimano brakes, larger front rotor to 180, did a PNW droper, 785 bars and shorter stem.
My first full suspension in 2006 was a rocky mountain etsx 50 which was the mid of of three specs from 30 -70 it had fox talas and float rp3. LX dual shifters which I hated from the off. suffered from regular cable stretch and the xt rapid rise suffered from constant ghost shifting I think xc racers liked the dual shifters, other than that it was never twitchy descending. I've had a range of bikes over the years all overpriced for my skill level and I now ride a polygon xtrada 6 27.5 hardtail and its all the bike I need at a budget price. Good review
Glad you liked the video and a riding buddy also had an ETSX 50! Great looking bike for the time and Tom still yearns for them to bring it back with modern geometry.
We actually realised a few weeks after filming the new Element was still running tubes! Pressures were around 22/24psi on the new bike and 26/28psi on the old bike, given the smaller volume we ran them a bit higher. Shock on the old bike is still holding up well, but it could do with another service!
nice, good video. Never thought about such comparision. I remember my father also in 2005 bought a full susp. MTB for his 50th Bday - Kona Kikapu. Mechanical disk brakes, Fox rear shock, 3x9 LX groupset... everyone was like WOOOOOOW. This RM Elements with HYDRAULIC disk brakes and shifter/leaver combo, it really had to be TOP at 2005!!! MTB has changed a lot over this time. I still have my first real MTB - 1998 Pacific S6000, 26" alluminium HT. I was really thrilled of it back then and rode it during my Highschool and university years. Now I use it just around the town. Compared to my current MTB "latest 29" I can not believe I could have riden that. But it was the best there was back then. Efficiency, comfort and overall capability of todays MTBs is miles from what it was ~20 years ago.
Remember those Kikapu's well! Share the same sentiment when looking back too, nowadays we think it's mad what we used to ride on those bikes! Modern bikes are very good for sure
No I don't think they've changed for the better. I think freewheels are better that cassettes. You should have to take it apart just to get it off. And you need more than one tool just to get it off. That's not an improvement. I think threaded is better than threadless on bike forks. And the 1 x 8,9,10,11 is not an improvement over the 3 x 5,6,7,8 speeds. What would be an improvement in the bike industry is if they started standardizing everything. There shouldn't be different thread cuts and pitches on anything threaded. That goes for the headsets and the cranks.
In all fairness I seriously doubt you'd have been riding trails made for todays bikes 20 years ago so of course they werent designed for it. I know I wasnt. 20 years ago I was riding muddy quad trails and hiking trails, we had no bike specific trails. That said I can say my cheap Canadian Tire full rigid 26er goes a whole lot better down muddy quad trails than my 2022 Devinci hardtail, they were built for that condition.
Are you in Canada? There were plenty of MTB trails that existed 20 years here in the USA - some of the most famous trails in the USA are well over 20 years old. Canadian Roland Green was king of MTB'ing 20 years ago. Surely there were trails outside of your area...
As said, some of the trails in Canada from 20 years were way, way gnarlier than a lot of stuff we have here in the UK even now! "Modern" trail centres and bike parks have sure helped to push bike design further though and you can still ride pure XC on any bike, as long as you're having fun, thats all that matters!
I will totally give you that the modern bikes are better; better tech, better design, and better geo. As an “older” person who grew up with these older bikes, it’s fun to see young people who didn’t experience this phase in development. In the hands of somebody who grew up with this type of design, these bikes are not only still viable, but they can actually bring just as much, if not more, joy to the riding experience. When I ride an older 26, it feels like I’m being teleported back to when I was young. And my skills on that 26 come back very quickly. You can find some really fine mountain bikes that will suffice for 95% of the population out there for a couple hundred bucks.
For sure! Tom's dad has gone from the early fully rigid MTBs to his Element, Tom has gone from hardtails of the mid-2000's to todays and both say the differences in both time periods are stark. The 2005 Element feels like a rocketship compared to the first MTB Tom's dad rode and likewise Tom feels a massive difference between his first hardtail and his Transition or the new Element. But you're so right, any bike, is a fun bike!
I like the video all the way until its conslusion. You can't compare DH times on a bike that you are not used to to the one you ride daily. I ride 26" 2009 Gary Fisher Supercaliber and I'm always faster than my 29" Scott bro and I always feel like have much more agility than him in sharp curves, more technical terrain etc. When we switch bikes we both crave getting back to our own bikes as you are used to what u ride. I personally like the liveness of a smaller bike I feel like I had to really concentrate and really be there 100% when I ride 29" I feel little bit like on my motorbike more enjoying the surroudings and not paying much attention what is really going on under until you get to the difficult part. Different ride styles definitely but DH times can't be objective. :)
Wider range in the rear in comparison pretty much negate the need for multiple chainrings these days. Previously cassettes were 11-28 or 11-32 in comparison to the 10-51t cassettes of today. An old triple will have a range of 19.5 inches to 100 gear inches. A current 1x system will have a range of 18.5 inches to 93.6 inches. Pretty much the same range without the need for two more chainrings, a shifter and cabling.
We tested at the Forest of Dean and with limited time, we picked a track that featured a wide range of terrains, but couldn't take in everything. Tom has a lot of experience of his Dad's bike on proper, old school XC terrain and it would be closer to the new bike, but still not a match
After about 3 years the last Keurig stopped working ua-cam.com/users/postUgkxBrV-RbF5Nk0Rlt9i15aao-YMzqzTG8Vf initially was able to unblock, however eventually we couldn't fix. That one was a replacement unit sent by the manufacturer after we had problems with our very first Keurig. This works fine (lol, at least for now) however I didn't realize the water reservoir was so much smaller than our prior unit. With 2 people having one or two cups of coffee each morning, it seems like I'm refilling it daily. Otherwise just happy to have the convenience of pod coffee vs. making a morning pot.
You could get shorter stems back then, but most came with something pretty long, Tom remembers a Rocky Mountain Slayer of similar vintage coming with a 90mm stem as stock, and that's basically an enduro bike of its day!
Lol, that 70mm stem on the old bike would have been considered SUPER short back then!! I have a 2004 Turner 5 Spot (basically thee best trail bike of that era) and it came with what was considered back then, a “short” stem of 90mm!!!
Rocky Mountain bikes are the most overpriced, overhyped bikes on the market for below average products. I’m Canadian, and try my best to buy from Canadian brands, but Rocky Mountain bikes are one Canadian brand I will avoid at all costs
Can't say as we'd agree, they're boutique and a little pricey, but they perform really well. Check out our review of the 2023 Element! www.bikeradar.com/reviews/bikes/mountain-bikes/full-suspension-mountain-bikes/rocky-mountain-element-c70-29-first-ride-review/
What was your first bike?
1991 GT Timberline.
Still using for bike packing and shopping heavy staff.
My first bike was a 1990 aluminum Cannondale SM800 “Beast of the East”; the BB height was 13” or 13.5”. The frame was tight like a BMX bike. In 1991 I installed the very first model of Rockshox. The paint was black with orange speckles. Cool bike.
1994 Scott Boulder. Fully rigid. Now it's a commuter bike at a weekend house. 😎
first proper mtb that i went offroad whit 2014 Merida Big Seven with 27,5 in wheels
Redline BMX circa 2003
The thing I find that's missing in these Old vs New comparisons is seeing the older bike restomoded a little(or a lot). Throwing a 70mm stem and 780 wide bar on the 2005 bike, maybe a box 1x9 set up etc... You can often use newer tech to make old school bikes a lot of fun.
Funny you mention that... stay tuned is all we'll say for now!
Did this with a 2006 Fuel 90. After adding a short stem, wide bars, deathgrips and a dual air revelation, i dont feel the need for anything more modern
@@bikeradar So what were we supposed to wait for ? Checked through vids and there is NOTHING
Of course, there will be differences between both bikes, as the parts on the 26er are outdated and may struggle to handle modern components showcased in the video. However, I still use my Giant XTC 26 variant from 2011, which I have upgraded with modern 26 rims with a 21mm inner width and 28mm outer width. It's equipped with a 26x2.25 Vittoria Barzo tire on both the front and rear wheels, a 690mm flat handlebar, an 80mm -6 stem, and an SR Suntour Epixon Trail 26 Variant TA-Nonboost Fork with an upgraded cartridge. The upgraded cartridge offers slow compression and remote lockout functionality. Additionally, I have a 100mm dropper post, an 11-speed Shimano Deore M5100 rear derailleur with an 11-51t cassette, and a 36t Wolftooth chainring.
I've been using this bike on local trails as well as participating in local XCO and XCM races, and it still performs admirably. The rollover capability may suffer due to the 26-inch wheels, but when it comes to technical sections and tight turns, I still prefer the 26er over the 29er. The speed on the 26er is decent, although the 29er is faster, but the 26er offers a much more enjoyable and fun riding experience.
I have a 27,5er hardtail, it is in between both (new 26er are rare today) and still not as big as a 29er.
For sure, the gap would be closer if we swapped a few bits out, even a dropper alone would make a huge difference!
Your dad got his money's worth! We also have to keep in mind that the trails that mtb ride on have changed as well since 2005. Finally, what are the weights of the 2 bikes?
He definitely has, been all over the UK, including multiple Snowdon trips.
The new bike is 12.73kg without pedals, the older one is 11.46kg without pedals
Does anyone know of good info. on how the trails have changed? … I didn’t ride trails between 1998 and 2016, and I moved out West in that time, so I don’t have a sense of the evolution of trails… either at a local or national/worldwide level…
I think Mountain biking itself has changed, now it's more about tricksy descending manicured purpose made pistes, 20 years ago, it was more about adventure on mixed terrain (down and up), forest paths, bridleways, green lanes and open country even panniered expedition touring. Also the bikes fitted shorter people better.
Yes, the spirit of the sport seems to have changed. Was more about adventure back then - going out on natural single tracks and getting lost for hours in the remote backcountry. Now it's more about just sending man built features on the same short loop runs with the bros.
New bikes are better on those old trails too
I think we have far more choices when it comes to both riding terrain and bike types. You can still do all the exploring you want on a capable XC or short travel trail bike 👍
Different horses for different courses for sure. The trends may have moved on, but you can still ride all that old stuff rather than bike parks if you want to.
Tom loves big, all day, natural rides in the Peak and Lake districts just as much as he does bike parks and trail centres!
@Cup & Cone even modern mountain bikes meant for touring are better at technical trails than the old bikes we used to ride. We really just lived with what we were given. Road bike geometry and handling feel hasn't changed much in the last 20yrs beyond what the big tires offer. But mountain bikes now are better for everything from modern trails to what people used to do on bikes that seemed to not be designed by people that knew what they were doing.
Have to say. That's a bad choice of bike from 2005. There were much better options out there far better than that.
Fact is back then mountain biking was all about fun. Going down the local woods with your mates and having a big laugh. You had one wheel size as you didn't (and still don't) need anything other than 26" wheels!
Now mountain biking has got absolutely ridiculous. There is a ridiculous amount of wheel sizes and combos, ridiculous looonnngg loooow slack geo. Ridiculous electric bikes and electric gizmos. Ridiculous apps like Strava. Don't even get me started on Enduro!! It's all got way too serious and we have forgotten what's it's all really about...Fun!
yeah, should have been the single crown lighter version of the kona stinky
Back in my day we had a penny farthing and a tin of mandarin oranges and we would be happy all day, kids nowadays just seem to want Walkmans and a bag of disco biscuits, it’s shameful
@@capragoat8119 Miss my walkman! Lol
However, I think you are missing the point. Mountain Biking has got way too serious. It's all about serious racing, fast Strava times, Enduro etc. All very very serious and intense. The big fact is the fun element has been lost. This is what mountain biking was all about. If you look at all of the ridiculous wheel sizes, standards, frame materials, geo, electric this and that, different types of mountain bikes (down country FFS!!). It's a absolute joke! No wonder the industry has been struggling for a while now. It's all back firing on them and glad it is it serves them right.
@@myrants5836 agree with racing being the main driver behind bike development, I’m not a fan of 29ers although I have never ridden one, this is a similar sentiment echoed by my riding buddies of the same generation. You are looking at it through a narrow lens though, one look at UA-cam (Pilgrim, 50/01, Loose riders etc) or even just a session down my local woods, shows people are doing exactly the same thing as always, having a laugh on bikes
@@myrants5836 Hey come on. It is like saying that we don't need cars with ABS, air conditioner or infotainment systems. Nobody is forcing you to buy the newer bikes and components or to be competitive on strava. Just do your thing, enjoy mountain biking and let others spend their money. Beginners today have access to a wide variety of options and can get a hardtail with modern geometry without breaking the bank. The rest of us can enjoy the improvements.
This year marks 26 years I have been MTB'ing. Bikes have changed for the better only in terms of capability (decreasing necessary rider skill) and rider comfort, but that change has made the sustainability of the sport worse by lowering the barrier to entry/learning curve. Increasing accessibility and multiplying participation rates isn't all positives and brings its own set of drawbacks.
Its sure easier to get into the sport than ever, but also easier to get in over your head very quickly, especially with e-bikes removing a large portion of the fitness barriers of the past
@@bikeradar All my bikes have always been E BIKES...
E for effort!💙🚴♂️🌴☀️
- Marin County native, riding since '71😻
Mt. Tam!
I bought a brand new Rocky Mountain Element Team SC back in 2006. I rode the heck out of it for years, did upgrades etc. - my dream bike. Overlooked the 29“ discussions, sticking to my dream bike…
But then in 2021 I switched to a Rocky Mountain Instinct BC Edition.
What can I say. I love it so much. I simply do not want to bike the element any more. The fun level on the instinct, it’s geometry, so much better in every aspect - except the paint.
White, red maple leaf paint job was the best ever on a RM.
Great that your dad still rides it.
I still love the pure ride on my dads Klein Attitude Race from 1991 - such a classy, stiff bike!
Love it! Those red and white maple leaf paint jobs were the business.
The older Elements were and still are good bikes, but you're right, once you've ridden a modern bike it's hard to go back.
For a bimble about, the oldies can still do the job though, just don't throw them down anything too tech!
I currently own/ride a 2010 element team. It has Easton scandium hydro-formed tubing, full XTR (3×9) which works flawless, Mavic ssc sl 26" wheels with Maxxis Minion 2.3" tubeless. Its a sub 26lb xc. I'm also 61 and have zero desire to go modern. I just can't justify spending 5k min. on a bike.
First mtb was a full rigid 1991Cro-Mo framed Diamond Back Apex. My first suspension mtb was a 2002 Klein Palomino, which is still in good shape and fun to ride. I think the Diamond Back was around $900, and the Klein ran around $2000.
I had exactly the same DB Apex. The red one right? I loved it. My race bike i got after a very "slow" Cannondale
@@FabOnABike Mine was black (might have been a 90 or a 92, can't remember for sure). It came with an XT/DX group mix and had cantilever brakes. It was a nice bike for its time, when trails were more "flowy". I got my Klein right around the time Trek bought them out, so it was one of the last of the Gary Klein manufactured bikes, and is still a joy to ride. I treat it with care, as it's becoming hard to get replacement parts when needed. Klein made beautiful aluminum frames, and I'm glad I've kept the bike up. I sold my Apex to someone in the late 90s. It was my only rigid mtb, and dates from around the time of guys like Ned Overend and John Tomac on the mtb racing circuit of the day.
Those Klein's were 😍
I’m going to show this to my Ride + Design bike class next Spring. Very informative video showing not just Geometry changes, but also some important tech developments as well. Riding that 2003 Element looks genuinely scary through some of those downhill sections. I’m guessing there were tubes in those 2.1 tires, along with the 30+ PSI needed to prevent pinch flats. This makes me wonder what the next 20 years will bring in terms of meaningful changes that make the bike faster? I doubt (short of adding a motor) the 2043 bike will be over 1 minute faster that the 2023 Element under the same rider.
Awesome, hope your class enjoys it!
Riding the old bike was definitely a shock to the system for sure, the geometry more than anything, though lack of a dropper also held it back.
The old bike is actually running tubeless, so of course pressures were higher in the tyres. I was running low-20s for the new bike and mid-high 20s for the older bike, so not quite as hard as you'd think!
Will certainly be interesting to see where MTBs end up in another 20 years as you say!
This video is fantastic! I started mountain biking in 1989 on a fully rigid Trek 7000 and thought it was the best thing ever invented! I felt as thought I could ride up and over anything on super gnarly trails and so I did! I graduated to a Kona Explosif with a front shock, and then a 2005 Giant NRS 1. After too many years off the trails, I recently returned to the sport and bought a Trek Fuel EX 8. What a difference! All my previous bikes, with the long stems, sent me OTB like a projectile way too many times. I can now see and feel how the geometry of the older bikes puts one in an unnatural and not very logical position. The geometry of the new 2023 models is much more comfortable, functional, and safer! I would love to see a video on doing a comparison of all the major bike designs over time from inception, especially a fully rigid bike. Interestingly, there's also a bit of a trend back to the rigid old days in some respects with the advent of "ATB" bikes, gravel bikes, and "underbiking."
For sure, there's an argument for gravel bikes being very akin to 90's MTBs! Any bike is a fun bike, but you're right when you say the newer bikes are much safer feeling, but still just as much fun!
In terms of weight, the older aluminium 2005 Rocky Mountain Element 70 has a complete weight of 26lb (11.8kg ), whereas the latest carbon fibre Element 70 complete weight is closer to 28lbs (or 12.5kg) ?
A few upgrades on the older version can easily make it under 25lbs.
Could certainly be done!
I mean the reality is today's mtn bikes are vastly superior to 20 years ago. There's just no getting around that fact. But it makes sense you wouldn't expect them to get worse over time. I started mountain biking in '91 and we didn't even have suspension forks for the first couple of years. My how things have changed! The bottom line is the less advanced the bike, the more skilled the rider had to be to avoid going over the bars.
No amount of skill was going to make Tom feel less likely to go over the bars on the old bike 🤣 But seriously, modern bikes are indeed so, so capable and very different beasts to their forebears.
My first bike was a brand new, $689 USD, 1987 GT Avalanche. You can, or maybe more accurately can't imagine the changes I've seen. But at the end of the day, it's still just a bike that takes you away from reality for sometimes hours at a time.
The power of the Triple Triangle at the top tube, seat tube and seat stay junctions
I have a Avalanche 3.0 Disc, I bought it a couple of months ago used for little money and restored it. It's different from my more modern Scott Aspect hardtail, however it's still a nice bike to ride
And that's the beauty of any bike, its a means of escape, no matter how old/new or how expensive/cheap it is, just getting out and about is the best bit and sooo many people forget that!
My 1st real Mt bike was a 1998 Rocky Mountain Oxygen and I never ran smaller tires than 2.4", just had to keep the wheel straight so it didn't rub on corners ect. the new geo and taller wheels almost takes some of the fun out of XC trails, the old bikes kept you on your toes
There's a blast from the past! The older rigs certainly keep you on your toes, but we definitely found the newer bike to be the more "fun", just needs even burlier trails to get beyond its limits!
My first MTB was no name, I bought in Germany in some discount shop for 169 EUR in 1999, it was a complete Schrott, on my first ride I've managed to brake a crank, which was made from plastic!, but kept using it till 2003, when I upgraded to proper MTB Merida. Now I have Carrera Kraken hardtail and softail (is it how you call full suspension bike?😂) Voodoo Minustor, love them 💞.
You need to go back in time to where MTBs had no front or rear suspension , rim brakes and crappy tires . i had a schwinn Cimmaron back in the eighties . a super fun bike that teaches one how to read lines a lot better than full suspension , bikes that are very forgiving . learn to ride a hard tail first and then go for suspension . IMO
You definitely have less of a margin for error with older bikes, especially rigid ones. Sometimes though, that rigid fork can be better than a suspension fork, as the steep geometry of an older bike gets even steeper when the fork is bottom out!
dawg, your dad's bike is fucking fresh.
It looks great for it's age doesn't it! It's been very looked after
@@bikeradar clearly!
My first mountain bike was a Raleigh Mustang back in the mid eighties, I spent all my pocket and paper round money buying Suntour XCD components for it. The first proper mountain bike I like to think was a 1988 Diamond Back Arrival with full XT. Fast forward to now I have a Transition Spur and yes much has changed and for the better this bike is insane…. but one thing has not and that is my sheer enjoyable of being out riding my bike and I can’t see that ever changing.
So true! Bikes may be soooo different nowadays but just getting outside and mucking about on bikes is still as good as it always has been!
Having a sick bike like the Spur makes it even better though 😉
Put longer front forks on it to raise the front end and make the geometry slacker, much wider handlebars and a shorter stem, then retest ;)
My old 26er is quicker than my 29er (quicker accelerating, quicker turning, higher top end). The only thing the 29er is better at is going up really steep hills and that's due to the longer wheelbase and heavier front wheel.
We have plans for something with the old bike, stay tuned!
@@bikeradar Excellent, as you probably know, there is a reason why Mullet Bikes are growing in popularity.
If you could find a 1-1/8” straight steerer tube fork in 27.5” you could make that 2003 RM a resto-mod mullet! And definitely put a 50mm stem on with some 780mm bars. The thing is that no matter what you try to make an old bike feel better it’s the geometry of a modern bike that really changed the game. I reckon that old RM Element wouldn’t be so bad even with 26” wheels if you had a slacker HA, longer reach and shorter stem, etc it would perform much better. It’s really weird to look at my old bikes and realize we were basically riding road bikes with knobby tires. I can believe I rode a bike with 120mm stem and probably 500mm wide flat bars connected to a 72ish degree head tube angle and stretched out so far that my back was probably parallel with the ground!! No wonder descending a 2* down hill felt frightening!! But hey, what did we know back then!
Didn't realize that Shimano ever made a reverse action derailleur. My Dahon folding bike from 2008 has a Dahon derailleur that also goes to the biggest cog with no cable tension. It's a bit odd and I've never been able to figure out why they did it that way, but it is still reasonably easy to get used to.
The idea was that you are more likely to shift under power when going to a bigger cog. The spring action instead of cable action, meant that that movement was not foreced, but instead just gently ‘nudged’ , thus letting it happen at the extract right time for the shift ramps.
⬆️ that is correct. Shifting to lower gears (bigger cogs) under power was better with Rapid Rise. But then you quickly figure out that when you wanna brake and downshift at the same time, you can’t. I had many Rapid Rise equipped bikes and thought they were great- until I rode a friends bike that had “normal shifting”. I realized right away that i could apply the brakes and thumb shift to lower gears at the same time and quickly ditched my Rapid Rise derailleurs.
In the overall scheme of things, theyre incredibly similar bikes. A slightly better rider on the old bike would crush a slightly weaker rider in the new bike, imo.
For sure better riders would quicker on the old bike, but they'd have to be A LOT better to make up the minute difference over the new bike!
Also tubeless.
And since 98 always 2.3 or 2.4 tyres.
my buddy has an older TREK STACHE & at the time it was beside my new TREK EX-8,
besides the suspension they looked identicle
1991 Marin Bobcat Trail 3 full rigid. Still riding it occassionally but now for flat bar graveling.
Retro MTBs make great gravel bikes, especially if they have clearance for 650b wheels and tyres!
Add a dropper post, wider bars and shorter stem and retest ???
We might have a few ideas for the old bike, stay tuned!
I wish those shimano duel control shifters stuck, I had the exact ones and I loved them!
Don't hear many people say that! Maybe now with the likes of AXS, they could be brought back to life in a cleaner format!
I ride a 2006 MTB hardtail to this days, so far it takes me everywhere, on all nice terrains. 😬
😀
Great to hear you're still loving your bike!
Timing couldn't be better - I purchased a Marin Nail-trail in 2002, last bike i bought until last week when I picked up my 2023 Santa Cruz Blur XC; Chalk and Cheese is other world!
Wow, that is quite an upgrade! The 2023 Blur is an awesome bike!
Been riding on and off for 30 years and the modern bikes are absolutely fantastic.
They are awesome! The latest and greatest are all well and good, but it was still fun to ride an older bike, just a lot scarier too! 😂
Thank you for the video. I believe the trails have more evolved, consequently the bikes design to meet those changes.
For sure trail are very different in a lot of places to what they were 20 years ago, but in a lot of places, they are very similar.
Tom and his old man still ride the same local trails now that they did back in the day and aside from being more cut up than they used to be, they're pretty much the same.
Might be a fairly unique case, as trail centres and bike parks are very different now, to what they were!
I have an 05 Schwinn Rocket Pro. At the time it was spec well. Hayes hydraulic, Scram gears, and Monito suspension.
It's time to upgrade my bike
I upgraded the grip to race face lock on, race face pedals, new shimano brakes, larger front rotor to 180, did a PNW droper, 785 bars and shorter stem.
Nice, sounds like you've made some good changes, but for sure, you might find a more modern bike even better!
@@bikeradar I just ordered a YT Jeffsy core 2. I'm counting the days until it's delivered. 🤤
My first full suspension in 2006 was a rocky mountain etsx 50 which was the mid of of three specs from 30 -70 it had fox talas and float rp3. LX dual shifters which I hated from the off.
suffered from regular cable stretch and the xt rapid rise suffered from constant ghost shifting I think xc racers liked the dual shifters, other than that it was never twitchy descending.
I've had a range of bikes over the years all overpriced for my skill level and I now ride a polygon xtrada 6 27.5 hardtail and its all the bike I need at a budget price. Good review
Glad you liked the video and a riding buddy also had an ETSX 50! Great looking bike for the time and Tom still yearns for them to bring it back with modern geometry.
Was the newer bike tubeless and running lower tire pressures?
And how is older Fox rear shock holding up?
We actually realised a few weeks after filming the new Element was still running tubes! Pressures were around 22/24psi on the new bike and 26/28psi on the old bike, given the smaller volume we ran them a bit higher.
Shock on the old bike is still holding up well, but it could do with another service!
nice, good video. Never thought about such comparision. I remember my father also in 2005 bought a full susp. MTB for his 50th Bday - Kona Kikapu. Mechanical disk brakes, Fox rear shock, 3x9 LX groupset... everyone was like WOOOOOOW. This RM Elements with HYDRAULIC disk brakes and shifter/leaver combo, it really had to be TOP at 2005!!! MTB has changed a lot over this time. I still have my first real MTB - 1998 Pacific S6000, 26" alluminium HT. I was really thrilled of it back then and rode it during my Highschool and university years. Now I use it just around the town. Compared to my current MTB "latest 29" I can not believe I could have riden that. But it was the best there was back then. Efficiency, comfort and overall capability of todays MTBs is miles from what it was ~20 years ago.
Remember those Kikapu's well! Share the same sentiment when looking back too, nowadays we think it's mad what we used to ride on those bikes! Modern bikes are very good for sure
What would have been interesting to see your dad driving your bike and commenting how it compares.
I had a Rapid Rise rear derailleur. I actually liked it quite a bit.
The derailleurs themselves weren't that bad, but the dual controls... 🤮
@@bikeradar Yea that was a bit weird
20 years sure is, my New Jersey Devils are now 20 years without a Stanley Cup. They have a player on the roster who was born after that win.
Tom feels your pain, he noted a footballer who played for his team "must be getting on a bit now..." only to find he is only a literal day younger...
Nothing tests your riding ability and fitness than old bike, the experience makes you appreciate what a modern bike can give to a rider.
It definitely made Tom appreciate how good modern bikes are, and how much respect his dad deserves for still shredding it!
No I don't think they've changed for the better. I think freewheels are better that cassettes. You should have to take it apart just to get it off. And you need more than one tool just to get it off. That's not an improvement. I think threaded is better than threadless on bike forks. And the 1 x 8,9,10,11 is not an improvement over the 3 x 5,6,7,8 speeds. What would be an improvement in the bike industry is if they started standardizing everything. There shouldn't be different thread cuts and pitches on anything threaded. That goes for the headsets and the cranks.
Thanks for the feedback! Sounds like you're given this alot of thought!
~ Will
In all fairness I seriously doubt you'd have been riding trails made for todays bikes 20 years ago so of course they werent designed for it. I know I wasnt. 20 years ago I was riding muddy quad trails and hiking trails, we had no bike specific trails. That said I can say my cheap Canadian Tire full rigid 26er goes a whole lot better down muddy quad trails than my 2022 Devinci hardtail, they were built for that condition.
Are you in Canada? There were plenty of MTB trails that existed 20 years here in the USA - some of the most famous trails in the USA are well over 20 years old. Canadian Roland Green was king of MTB'ing 20 years ago. Surely there were trails outside of your area...
As said, some of the trails in Canada from 20 years were way, way gnarlier than a lot of stuff we have here in the UK even now! "Modern" trail centres and bike parks have sure helped to push bike design further though and you can still ride pure XC on any bike, as long as you're having fun, thats all that matters!
I will totally give you that the modern bikes are better; better tech, better design, and better geo.
As an “older” person who grew up with these older bikes, it’s fun to see young people who didn’t experience this phase in development. In the hands of somebody who grew up with this type of design, these bikes are not only still viable, but they can actually bring just as much, if not more, joy to the riding experience.
When I ride an older 26, it feels like I’m being teleported back to when I was young. And my skills on that 26 come back very quickly. You can find some really fine mountain bikes that will suffice for 95% of the population out there for a couple hundred bucks.
For sure! Tom's dad has gone from the early fully rigid MTBs to his Element, Tom has gone from hardtails of the mid-2000's to todays and both say the differences in both time periods are stark.
The 2005 Element feels like a rocketship compared to the first MTB Tom's dad rode and likewise Tom feels a massive difference between his first hardtail and his Transition or the new Element.
But you're so right, any bike, is a fun bike!
Good sales pitch. 😏
I kinda like the older one better, but then again I ride a 07 cannondale prophet and a 94 Gt-RTS
Nice line up of bikes! Those RTS's were awesome BITD
I like the video all the way until its conslusion. You can't compare DH times on a bike that you are not used to to the one you ride daily. I ride 26" 2009 Gary Fisher Supercaliber and I'm always faster than my 29" Scott bro and I always feel like have much more agility than him in sharp curves, more technical terrain etc. When we switch bikes we both crave getting back to our own bikes as you are used to what u ride. I personally like the liveness of a smaller bike I feel like I had to really concentrate and really be there 100% when I ride 29" I feel little bit like on my motorbike more enjoying the surroudings and not paying much attention what is really going on under until you get to the difficult part. Different ride styles definitely but DH times can't be objective. :)
Why the remove multiple gear disc on the front of the chain near pedals ?
Wider range in the rear in comparison pretty much negate the need for multiple chainrings these days.
Previously cassettes were 11-28 or 11-32 in comparison to the 10-51t cassettes of today. An old triple will have a range of 19.5 inches to 100 gear inches. A current 1x system will have a range of 18.5 inches to 93.6 inches. Pretty much the same range without the need for two more chainrings, a shifter and cabling.
Still ride a Bontrager Titanium w Marzocchi Z2 fork. Great for gravel😊😊😊
Nice! Old 26" MTBs make a great restomod gravel bikes!
Shame you didn't have a chance to ride them both on some narrow twisty single track, no surprise a modern bike is better at a bike park
Looks like Swinley, I have some straws if you want to clutch something
@@capragoat8119 What's Swinley?
We tested at the Forest of Dean and with limited time, we picked a track that featured a wide range of terrains, but couldn't take in everything.
Tom has a lot of experience of his Dad's bike on proper, old school XC terrain and it would be closer to the new bike, but still not a match
After about 3 years the last Keurig stopped working ua-cam.com/users/postUgkxBrV-RbF5Nk0Rlt9i15aao-YMzqzTG8Vf initially was able to unblock, however eventually we couldn't fix. That one was a replacement unit sent by the manufacturer after we had problems with our very first Keurig. This works fine (lol, at least for now) however I didn't realize the water reservoir was so much smaller than our prior unit. With 2 people having one or two cups of coffee each morning, it seems like I'm refilling it daily. Otherwise just happy to have the convenience of pod coffee vs. making a morning pot.
Back then I’d guess the cassette would be a 12-32 or a 11-30.
So the bikes got bigger which means one needs more place to store and transport them
Pitbull vs American Bully.
I like the older bike. I would however get rid of those horrible dual control shifters.😅
They're not the best! With a dropper post, it would be a bit easier to get it down the tech, but for an XC bimble it holds up ok!
I like so much dual control shifters ,,
But i respect if you don't like .,
These would be realistic results had the older bike been full rigid.
But then that would have been a 30 year gap and Tom couldn't ride a bike when he was 1!
Will everyone, please stop saying, dee-rail-ee-ur. The word is, dee-rail-ur. End of rant:
Prefer 'rear mech' myself!
Tom also prefers rear mech, but that term is banned at BikeRadar 😂
But how does it ride?
Watch to the end to find out 😉
Long stems like that were NOT typical back then.
You could get shorter stems back then, but most came with something pretty long, Tom remembers a Rocky Mountain Slayer of similar vintage coming with a 90mm stem as stock, and that's basically an enduro bike of its day!
Lol, that 70mm stem on the old bike would have been considered SUPER short back then!! I have a 2004 Turner 5 Spot (basically thee best trail bike of that era) and it came with what was considered back then, a “short” stem of 90mm!!!
Rocky Mountain bikes are the most overpriced, overhyped bikes on the market for below average products. I’m Canadian, and try my best to buy from Canadian brands, but Rocky Mountain bikes are one Canadian brand I will avoid at all costs
Scott typically had bikes with a little bit more bang for the money, with a decent quality
Can't say as we'd agree, they're boutique and a little pricey, but they perform really well. Check out our review of the 2023 Element! www.bikeradar.com/reviews/bikes/mountain-bikes/full-suspension-mountain-bikes/rocky-mountain-element-c70-29-first-ride-review/