Just a quick update of how to make this even better is some have suggested bolting through to the outside of the wall. As you could imagine this would be much stronger and full-proof than the lags but obviously has complications like hardware penetrating the exterior fiberglass. I love the idea of trying to get a bolt inside the wall or something like a Rivnut but there are difficulties to make that happen. The lowest hanging fruit is to use an Epoxy adhesive injected into the wall that the lag is then held in place by. I am going to try the Epoxy and see how that does to see if the easiest solution will work. Some people were asking about the spacing of our holes, which appeared a random to me, but here is what they are from rear to front since I had the back 2 for reference. 8 9/16", 10 3/8", 9 1/2", 9 1/4". Sorry metric would have been nice I know. ua-cam.com/video/LSJpKWELlBg/v-deo.html
We have a new 24 Reflection 5th wheel 27BH. I checked today & found only 2 lag bolts as you did. They are tight for the moment, do you think I should add more or wait until th warrant is up?
I would put the lag bolts in wet with an adhesive that would bond to the wood, epoxy would work, sort of like LocTite. The problem with lag bolts and wood is verry different rates of expansion and contraction if you are driving through changing temperatures. The other problem is moisture, this is where a bonding medium may help to maintain a better connection.
Are you happy with the change adding more lag screws? Have you pulled the filon? I have a 2023 311BHS and it only has 2 lags. Considering adding more. Did you drill all the way into the aluminum/wood and then install the lags?
@@dlsimes it’s funny because I keep hearing about other manufacturers, but for some reason the same models with grand design keep popping up. Never anything else. Not saying it’s not happening, I’m just not seeing it in my feed.
My GD Solitude S2930 RL (34’ long) has a broken front structure - missing 2 lag screws in bedroom, screws were only 3/8” instead of 1/2”. Service center found an additional 6+ bolts under front TPO pinbox covering and broken flat steel wall sills on both sides. Waiting on next step - Service stated it needs to go back to factory - GD said they will cover and make repairs.
All About RV's You should drill through to outside & use 5/16 th. Coach Bolts with Nylock Nuts & Repair washers , Paint the slight dome heads same colour as outer panels , then you'll be able to wrench them up tight.
It's to the point that people need to check the frame out regularly just like checking tires and springs. It pays to keep the tow vehicle in mind too. I'd make sure the suspension is working well. If the tow vehicle has hard springs or air bags that are pumped up to the max it could add extra jarring that the manufacturer's engineer never accounted for.
At some level I disagree with the owners taking responsibility for this particular issue. Only time it makes sense if the unit has been abused, overloaded and such. Short of that, I have NO expectation to check the head bolts on my 2024 F450 6.7L PowerStroke, or even my leaf spring shackle bolts to keep my truck on the road. Now if the truck is 10 years old, yeah, I might need to start watching things other than normal maintenance. It’s important to NOT let Grand Design get away with, first, terrible engineering, then secondly cheating out in the manufacturing process potentially creating a financial wipeout for the consumer at best, DEATH in an avoidable accident at worst. What this reminds me of is Ford back in the 70’s saving 15 cents on every Pinto, only to have the wrong bolt installed causing them to explode when in a rear end accident. This led to many folks being killed. So every UA-camr that even HINTS that this could be an owned maintenance issue, or they are the cause are the problem should stop doing this. There should be total condemnation of Grand Design for what has happened here and their total, until recently writing a letter that doesn’t mean ANYTHING, lack of accepting responsibility. All influencers should have enough integrity, whether they own one or not to stand together and not let them off the hook until every RV manufactured in the last 5 years at least, has been fully repaired or replaced without consideration if they are the 1st owner or the third owner. There should also be an NTSB investigation into car crashes with these Grand Design 5th wheels. I spent nearly 17 years in airplane manufacturing and Grand Design’s technics and engineering is beyond irresponsible. There should be countersunk flush mount bolts with nuts with tube inserts in the side walls taking into account different metals (fay sealed/wet install bolts) I’m guessing every 6” in this area. Leave the wood in the wood yard, with proper manufacturing it’s not needed and just adds weight.
It’s great you are being proactive.But why five holes and only two bolts.I think it is poor quality control.Regardless they should be built so these problems don’t occur.The manufacturers of the frames and RV builders should step up and fix these problems.
Yes that is the trick but I think possible. One thought I have is a welded on L bracket to the inside of the wall that bolts to the chassis. I think it could work the problem is how to incorporate it efficiently into production.
Just curious did you check the drivers side to see if it only had two lag bolts in it, and I’d GD gave you an explanation as to why there were only two?
At the 6:05 mark you are showing the wood filled framing member. I can’t figure out where that is in relation to the sidewall, the black steel or the OSB that you stripped the carpet from. That brief video section seems to be below in the propane bay? If so, are you just showing that as an example of what is behind the wall in the bedroom?
I've asked other yt people covering frame flex but I didn't get a response. I did however get a few rude comments directed to me from commenters on that UA-camrs channel. . I'd appreciate your take on what I've observed and have questions on. I've seen at RV parks 3rd axel 5th wheels backing into a space dragging or pushing the 3rd axel tire that is semi stationary in a 45-90 degree turn. My question is. When larger Fifth wheels back in those 45-,90 degree angles, does the truck pushing at the pin box to 3rd axel semi stationary tire twist the frame and structure from 3rd axel to pin box? Another question, Some 5th wheel people pull into parks stay connected to their trucks, they drop levelers which looks like it lifts the truck, they extend slides etc. Is this a good or bad decision? Thanks for sharing
Great first start but maybe who ever builds these flex frames should combine two learned Engineers and two trailer builders out side the rv industry with common sense from experience to tackle this problem. Adding a solid plate on top to keep metal from cracking and welds from breaking along with corner plates to reinforce perpendicular connections. Be care what you identify to be a engineer in this industry.🤔
I’m surprised that the design included ‘lag bolts’ for a structure that rolls down the road. Surprised they are not using tension and shear type bolts and nuts.
Yes it only had 2 lags as well but they were holding better. I did use a screw to find the frame holes and then put lags in them. I left the carpet on that side for now.
I have a 2020 Arctic Wolf 3660SUITE. The BIG one. Recently I started seeing vertical lines bulging out roughly 3-4' apart as if the skeleton was trying to escape. I discovered a bulge now at the rear corner of the front bed slide. Last year the floor above the stairs at the rear cargo hatch busted loose from the side wall. I drove new screws in after drawing the floor to the wall with clamps, but the bulges on the drivers side, some are very recent even though we have not gone anywhere since last May. I wonder if this is due to frame issues. It is in the shop, dropped it off this morning.
Thank you very very much for making this video. I have a Forest River 5th wheel Artic Wolf, and I've been seeing two lag bolts in our bedroom area sticking out from the carpet area after a trip. I screwed them back in, but after a trip, they are back out. I have been scared to do what you did because of the unknown of what I was going to find or how was I going to fix it. Now that I saw your video I feel I can concur my fears and fix it with larger lag bolts. Was using larger lag bolts the only thing you did to secure the wall besides adding additional bolts? Thank you
nice video...but what it boils down to is that Grand Design under-engineered their 5th wheels and are paying the price for it. Customers should not have to being doing this to their rv's. Yes, people do tend to push the limit with overloading, but the rv manufacturer should account for this to a degree. Grand Design is speaking up now about their poor product because they will soon go bankrupt if they dont help their customers. Hope you dont get "cracks or flex" but you do own a Grand Design...Good luck!
Congrats, you have shown “all” owners that there might be “defects” in their rigs and that they should check them. Your channel is much better than the others……
Yes, so mine were a bit random and from back of RV to the front (since I had the rear ones in it was a good reference) 8 9/16", 10 3/8", 9 1/2", 9 1/4". I also didn't pull the carpet yet on the other side but used these measurements to get close to where the holes were and then used a screw that would go through the OSB and you could feel when there was a void there. It was less destructive than trying to find it with a drill bit. Hope that helps.
I do agree that there are owners overloading their campers, and there is no doubt that the RV manufacturers aren't always fastening everything to the frame as they should, like your camper, however I think the vast majority of these problems are do to a very weak engineered frame. The thickeness of the steel is too thin, which leads to excessive flexing and thin welds. Concerning the performance of the frame, it should not matter how securely those thin wood and foam walls are attached, so as long as they dont go anywhere. If the foundation of your house was buckling or collapsing, would you blame the contractor for not fastening the walls better to the concrete? Are the walls responsible for holding the foundation together? Of course not! These campers are not cardboard boxes, nor are they shipping containers. Those types of structures rely on the walls for structural support, but a camper should not. Its a trailer with a box on it, not a box with wheels attached.
That opening clip made me think you were drilling straight in to the side of your camper 😰😅 You were working on the one side of your camper - what about the other side frame/wall structure? Did you find the same issue (number of lags)?
Why not rivnuts or machine thread nuts welded into the frame? Seems like too many beam counters have maximized undeserved profits at the expense of the customers
I don’t accept the statement about the walls stiffening the frame. I see it as the frame supports the walls and takes all the loads the walls can put into it visually the bolted connections. If someone’s suggesting the structure of the RV is a uni-body, I respectfully suggest it is not.
Bigger is not always better. The larger the diameter of the bolt or lag, the larger of substrate it need to screw into. Minimum the 1/2 lag screwed into would be 2 inches wide and at least 2 inches thick. A fat lag and small piece of wood will split the wood. And depending also on what type of wood it is screwed into, cheap pine will split, most soft woods will split without a pilot hole. The answer by GD to put larger lags in was poor to say the least.
It is totally asinine to buy a brand new fifth wheel and then expect the owners to take the carpeting out and check the bolts. I understand maintenance starts as soon as you take possession but this is ridiculous. When calling GD, instead of telling you to add lag bolts, they should have apologized and fixed it right away for free. It appears their solution to problems is to tell you anything to get you off the phone completely. In my RV market search, GD is off my list.
I agree I think on the frame issues the manufacturers should say hey bring it in and will repair it. Even if they charge a minimal cost of just the repair work for those that are five years or older. As long as you did, not alter the RV beyond the specifications.
GD has become another pig with lipstick, just like the rest of the manufacturers. VanLeigh was a quality unit until they were closed down. Brinkley is doing the best job producing a quality RV.
You, JD, Josh & everyone else doing videos on this issue are ALL feeding us BS hoping that we are as stupid as you think we are. The REAL ISSUE is that Lippert and ALL RV manufacturers with these issues, are not willing to accept any responsibility for building a piece of crap. Relying on a few lag bolts into 1'"of wood to support 14,000 lbs of trailer is ridiculous. The whole concept of the side wall being such a big part of the structural integrity is backwards thinking. The side walls should only be additional support. AS for the welds, if they were any good, they would not break, the surrounding metal would fail first. Jared, you're right All owners should be inspecting their units on a regular schedule . They should be looking at tires, roof condition, caulking, visually checking suspension components, but to expect owners to inspect for welds and loose mounting bolts is crazy. At most they should not ignore any body cracks. But it should never be expected that they take any responsibility for the failing frame. Would you take any responsibility if your truck frame started to fail, "HELL NO" you wouldn't. You'd be your truck dealers worst nightmare. So why is an RV any different. Wake up people!!
I agree with you completely. I have stopped watching and supporting these channels that are continuously taking up for the manufacturers. We need to support those channels who support and stand up for the consumer. It is very obvious in this video that the RV is not adequately assembled to not fail. They are banking on the RV just making it to the minimum years of the warranty or being sold to a second owner so they are no longer liable. They are liable in every definition. Car manufacturers would have already been forced to recall. Something has to be done.
Unfortunately the two of you are incorrect on this issue. RV repair is all I do and have done for 40 years. The “pin box” weight (how much wt exerted downward at the king pin) is never mentioned . This is why the mfg’s will grease the squeaky wheel ONLY when they know with certainty there is a defect.
It doesn't even seem to be the actual frame (meaning the steel lippert frame underneath the RV) that's flexing. It's the superstructure being improperly attached to the frame and not rigid enough itself that's flexing and breaking.
Josh and JD are big part of the problem too. Josh tried to tell me that the giant bubbles all the roof of the trailer he was reviewing on his channel were from "out gassing" how many people has he told that to. JD I don't know where to start
I've been a carpenter since 1990. Only a complete idiot would design something that constantly moves to be held together with grade 2 (the lowest) lag bolts fastened into a piece of soft 1x2. They should be using something like huck bolts.
I have a2021 Reflection 31MB and dealt with this about 6 months ago. I added 2 more lags on each side of the bedroom - total of 4. Due to excessive pin box movement independent of the upper deck, off came the front filon. I only had access to 2 lags per side due to upper deck flooring. All 4 were undersized and loose. Upsized to 1/2” and then spot welded the head to the frame to prevent loosening. Ugly part…the frame strap supporting wall only had 3 screws, sloppily installed at an angle, and counter sink screws were used on flat surface. All showed signs of pulling out. Replaced all frame strap screws with 6 ledger lags per side. Buttoned up and it’s a different trailer when underway. Solid feel and flex is what you would expect when in tow. Minimal,inadequate, and incorrect fastening of upper deck to frame. Poor construction by Grand Design in my case.
The fact a lag bolt is used instead of a threaded (bolt and nut) fastener is a major issue and should be the focus. As an mech engineer with 18+ years of machine/structure design I would never spec a lag bolt into composite aluminum/wood, even if its in shear, especially on a mobile unit that is under constant vibration/stress/strain when in motion. The engineers that approved this should be ashamed. Period.
I agree with you, a nut and bolt would be far superior. I don't own a 5th wheel, but as I watched this, I started wondering how I would fix this. I wonder if that wood, in the aluminum tube could be removed. If so could a length of angle or C channel aluminum be slid if there? If that could be done, then once the additional piece was added, the bolt holes from the frame could be marked. Then remove the additional angle ( C channel ) from the tube, drill holes and fasten some nuts in place. Slide it back in and use some bolts through the frame with some locktite to bolt into the the nuts and lock everything together. Anyways, hopefully sombody comes up with a better solution than just lag bolts in a thin piece of wood.
Also don't forget about the strength of the steel itself. There is good quality steel and cheap steel. They may have the same gauge, but the difference in the make up of the steel is totally different.
Instead of having wood inside those narrow channels, and using lag bolts, they should have captured nuts in those channels so the bolts can be directly threaded into the channel.
OSB strand board and lag bolts have NO business in any RV. After seeing this for the past few years at RV shows I bought an older used unit that is wood-free. Making excuses for poor quality frame welds because the manufacturer is too busy making quota won’t make the manufacturer change their ways. It’s about profit and nothing else.
I’ve had a fair amount of experience with this issue on my 2019 320 VanLeigh 5er (installed sleeve anchors myself 3yrs ago, had manufacture add wood into the channels, and last summer Tiffin pulled cap and added internal aluminum structure to the walls as well as additional bolts etc between frame and wall). I’ve also watched many, many frame flex videos over the last few weeks just for curiosity and entertainment. Your video was BY FAR THE BEST ONE OUT THERE about understanding the real problem, being objective, and recommending some real solutions. Great job!!
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Having an investment advisor is the best way to go about the stock market right now. I was going solo, but it wasn't working. I've been in touch with an advisor for a while now, and just last year, I made over 80% capital growth minus dividends.
Sounds interesting. I was planning to invest some few £ in some coins, stack them up and leave them for a few years, but seeing this changed my mindset. Thank you very much
Sorry but if it is so important how the walls are attached to the frame why in the heck, did anybody think two lag bolts are going to hold for any length of time and most RV owners are not builders like yourself or garage mechanics there relying on the manufacturer to put out a good product.
Well stated opinions in this video! Just my opinion. Lag bolts are made to attach something to wood that is continuous along the threads. Putting a lag bolt into aluminum tube and a tiny piece of wood that will absolutely split, is a misapplication of a fastener.
Imagine having to go through this with your safety related problems with your vehicle. The RV industry has convinced us that their products are of questionable build quality and the related problems are to be expected. They’ve also gradually exposed us to the concept of “you probably caused it” or “not our problem that’s the supplier’s problem”. From 5 decades of RV ownership I can honestly say that they’re almost all poorly built and as long as we keep buying them they have no motivation to build them better.
So that may have been on purpose (but possibly not) as now with 5 bolts the wall may be too rigid when going down the road and break something else. The 5 holes could be for different models are even manufacturers that require different placement. I don't know this for sure, but many years ago I worked in manufacturing for a company making fighter jets. There were parts that had holes that appeared to be never used. But, the part may have been used else where on the plane where the hole was used. Or, a hole was cut for future modifications and cheaper to do it that way. Again, could be many reasons for holes not used. Again, don't know in this case but from an engineering / manufacturing standpoint there are many possiblities.
@@fuzzywigglebutt Unlikely. I can think no circumstance you’d want a loose wall on a major structure. Especially when you are talking about cheap lag bolts into minimum wood/aluminum structure. In this case you want ZERO movement.
@@fuzzywigglebutt IRONICALLY, this is exactly what Grand Design told me when I asked them about Jarreds video. they told me that those wholes were for different models, and by adding more bolts I would be transferring stress elsewhere on the rig; the holes were not used to allow a certain amount of flex needed to avoid stress elsewhere. I dont know who to believe. It shouldn't be like this. it should be that I have to become an engineer to make sure my rv is built safe.
I think the manufacturers, especially Lippert, could probably also invest in technology to help make sure the welders are able to consistently get good, fast welds. It might be overkill to start deploying robot welders like cars use, especially since they make so many versions of the frames, but that doesn't mean that new welders with features that help make sure the person doing the welding can focus on the welding itself while the machine handles the adjustments or using different types of welding could help ensure flawless welds every time. If nothing else, it would take some pressure off the welders and allow them to really focus and not feel a time crunch. From friends I know who work in Elkhart at some of the manufacturers, they use every trick in the book to put the, mainly contractors, doing the actual assembly under a time crunch to ensure they're always trying to go as fast as possible. While that may roll more units off the line, experience has shown, across any industry, that constantly trying to operate at the absolute maximum pace will always lead to compromises somewhere. I've been told that part of why there's so much sawdust coming out of new RVs is because they no longer budget time for the contractors to clean up, if they spend time doing that they're getting fewer units done and getting paid less. That anecdote alone tells you a lot.
Big Truck Big RV is a sellout and got plenty of well deserved blow back on his interviews of Lippert. He asked the Lippert employees questions and then proceeded to answer his own questions not giving the Lippert employees an opportunity to fully reply. He got so much blowback from that as well as his comments that placed the blame on consumers rather then the RV manufacturers and Lippert that he had to issue an apology video as I suspect the purpose of which was to stem the losses of subscribers.
Jared, I have been a NRVIA Certified Inspector going on 5 years now. I been following your channel for several years. This problem is a lot bigger than both Lippert or GD are letting on. IMHO the problem is two fold questionable welds along with under engineering the connection between the frame and house. I'm not an engineer however 3 of my kids are..Lol Relying on two undersized lag bolts to hold one of the most stressed areas together is negligence imo. The penny pinchers at the RV factories are going to cost the companies a lot more money in the long run with these very short sighted cost saving efforts. Owners of these larger toy haulers and 5th wheels should be very concerned about resale values. I've already had numerous customers that have asked me to inspect toy haulers to see if they have frame issues. Then I have to break the bad news to them that it's not possible to tell if there are broken welds or missing components without tearing things apart and we just don't do that as part of an RV inspection. As part of my consulting business I have advised potential buyers what to look for and if there are any concerns to walk away and they have ! It's already affecting potential purchases and I believe that will continue to grow as buyers gain knowledge of the issue not just with GD but all manufacturers of these larger units. Kudos to Brinkley for being forthcoming about the issue and at least attempting to prevent the problem with a better connection. I own a GD trailer built pre- COVID. I wouldn't even consider a GD product if I decide to upgrade to a larger unit. Not a chance....
Asking aluminium box fitted with undersized timber to be a major structural part of construction is surely the problem. The oversized holes and small bolts combine in movement,and that timber inside the aluminium is going to fail . The under engineering with these RV structures is part of the issues,but they try to say that everything is engineered designs,Rubbish it's cheap engineering. Still waiting to see someone Annalise the steel used in the frames ,prove that it is American Steel and what it's made up of
As a full time RVer touring the US, we see a lot. The number of 40ft+ toy haulers that seem to be loaded to the max is normal. While we were in St George UT., I saw a couple toy haulers loaded with equipment STACKED in the back. The overhang past the rear axle on these units is huge. The example I refer to above, the driver had to set additional jacks under the rear frame before he opened the ramp. If this is required, I would assume the mfg would have provided jacks at those points. And who knows how that trailer handled going down the road at highway speed with so much weight on the backend. Ownership responsibility is absolutely required. At the same time, mfg - as you clearly showed in this video (Grand Design!) - should build these just a bit better. Like using 5 one half inch lags rather than 2 three-eights lags. After all, they drilled holes for 5. Spend the extra $6 per side and do it right. And BTBRV video was good, but like you showed on your trailer, they can talk all they want, but the quality just isn't there. I guess we need government regulation here since we're talking about serious investments in RVs, and dealers/mfg wash their hands as soon as you're off the lot. And if you finance, you agree to sign away any real rights in arbitration. Look at your contract. Another great video.
I'm a welder, I went from a job doing military items inspected by a in plant government inspector (that was quality before quantity) to a job that was mass production (quantity over quality) and the unwritten rule was only fix what the inspector catches! That's how the company increases it's profits. So sad. Not all welders worked by that unwritten rule!
Jared, with all the people talking about this, you were the first person to say that everyone has some responsibility for these problems. I was taught you have to take care of your stuff if you want to keep it nice. I also agree with others here that if there were five holes, there should have been five bolts. I would rather see a flat bolt head on the outside wall than I know it goes the whole way thru. Lag bolts seem like the wrong fasteners for this application. Again, great balanced take, keep up the good work. Safe travels and happy camping.
Actually Josh from Josh the RV Nerd at Bish's RV UA-cam Channel said that everyone bears some blame, including the dealerships. He had a great video like this one that also helped explain this whole situation.
Great video! I discovered a crack in my side wall last October and quickly learned that I had the dreaded frame flex issue. My rig is a 35' 2020 Keystone Alpine. The shop found, like yours, that many of the lag bolt holes were empty, and also most of the dead wood inside the square tube was missing. But the biggest problem with mine was that the philon siding was not glued / bonded to the aluminum structure except around the edges. I am told that the primary strength in the side walls comes from the bond between the fiberglass and the aluminum. In my case there were no broken welds. Just too much flexing which caused the side wall to eventually fail. Thanks again for this discussion, as I think it explains how important it is to actually build the rig to the engineers specs and stop cutting corners.
Jared, you have done a fantastic job explaining this problem. I do not presently own a towable but own a class A and have owned 8 RV’s over 40 years. I’m a Retired heavy construction professional with an engineering degree. You could not have explained this any better or clearer. It’s not all the manufacturers fault, but they have their share of responsibility to make these better. Two bolts may have worked on paper but obviously didn’t meet actual use and road conditions. I get why people are upset and it is harder to own an RV if you’re not able to do some work on them, maintain them, weight them and understand them. It’s sold to them as a carefree lifestyle. None of my 8 rigs were without issues. You have created a video everyone, regardless what type RV they are considering, should view. Thank you
I am a retired tool and die maker and I have so much comment to add to this video, but I don't have the time. The point I'm going to TOUCH on is, thread engagement! All threads have a helix angle! In this discussion, the mating structure of the rv is thin structural tube, 90 deg's. Mathematically, this works as a single point of contact, helix on the thread vs rectangular tube. Lag bolts are generally(ish) 8-10 threads per inch. The wall thickness of the tubing is typically not more than 1/8", which leaves a material engagement thickness of, 1 thread engagement! There is no way this is a structurally positive thread engagement! Fastener failure is pretty much guaranteed! It won't matter if the forces are "in shear" or "pull out", sooner or later, that fastener is going to fail!
Requiring that the outer shell provide rigidity to the frame is incredibly bad engineering design. The frame alone should be able to accommodate the load with room for a very large safety factor.
I think you are being too nice to the RV manufacturers. This 100% falls on the manufacturers. There are always going to be some people overloading a vehicle of any kind. That is not the issue here. These frames would flex (aka fail) with no weight in them. From all the deconstruct videos out there, you can see that the manufacturer install is shoddy and inadequate at best. Your loose lag bolt is a prime example. Hard to believe they use a lag bolt in a area designed for flexing and vibrating down the road. Yes owners have responsibility. I like seeing all these videos because it exposes how these pieces are put together and the flaws in the original install. If an RV is overloaded, and a deconstruct is done, it would be pretty evident that the overloaded/overweight was the cause, and the original install method is adequate. That is not what we are seeing here.
I'm sure you could blame the owners for a percentage of the issues. But I've seen threads about brand new units, nothing in them, having frame failure on the way home from the dealer with it. If there's a percentage of units that are DOA, would mean there could be a higher percentage of those that just haven't failed YET. I think they need to re-engineer the front super structure. Reinforce it with gusset plates and cross members. Maybe you add some weight, and lose a window. These things shouldn't be on the brink of failure so easily.
I was interested so I went to check ours in that area. I have always seen the two lag bolts were there, never checked them. Mine were loose, loose enough I can back them out by my fingers, with no washers and why go thru the carpet with them? I took them out, pulled the carpet, pulled the wood box they build around that frame piece and low and behold......I too have 5 holes on each! What the heck GD! I placed 3 more lags per side, with washers and for good measure I coated each lag with gorilla glue to help them not back out. Now for the intriguing part. Our bedroom floor at the top of the stairs always had a creaking sound when walking on it, the sidewalls in that area always sounded kinda loose and hollow, just figured since the trailer is a 150 series it was thinner and lighter and when placing the trailer on the truck there was always a creaking sound on both walls under each window. I assumed this was normal cause of all that weight coming down one a single attachment point when on the truck. Well, the bedroom floor doesn't creak when walking on it, the walls feel solid and zero creaking sound when hitching up. Unbelievable! Maybe all of that was supposed to move a little? Maybe we are not supposed to have all 5 lags attached to the wall, time will tell but now I feel better at least. I doubt I would have ever had the issue some owners are having with frame issues, we do not have any slides in the bedroom and we are only 32.4 ft. We own a 2020 GD 295RL. 150 series. Actually, fingers crossed never had a major problem just the usual trim pieces coming off. 4 years and 16k miles. Thanks for the insight
The the question of unbalance owner vs Manufacturer, Lets look at this in another vision. HOW many other RV's in the past, have had to have the OWNERS go through the coach to replace lag bolts, add metal and experience wall and floor failures before Grand Design????? That seems to be the question, I know of almost NONE. The extra effort you are doing is because you bought a Grand Design and the frame is in trouble. That is not the owners fault, it came from the factory faulty.
I have a Grand Design and have loose lag bolts that I questioned about in the beginning. No big deal I was told by the dealer. I will definitely check them again and add more if I can.
Good point! Also, the movement and vibration of going down the road will cause them to loosen over time. I don't know how how it could work in the manufacturing process but bolts, washers, and lock nuts would be more appropriate for a structure subjected to vibration than lag bolts.
Thanks for the video, and showing your repair! I would think that having 5 holes and only 2 bolts is because 2 bolts is enough to get past a 1 year warranty. For most users, one year is only 2 to 4 trips, and not enough time/use to have the bolts work loose to where the owner has a warranty claim. It would be interesting to see the engineer drawings to determine if they call for 2 or 5 lags to see if production is following the engineered plans. You might add some locktite to the lags to create a chemical bond to prevent them loosening.
@AllAboutRVs if the wood could be removed from the square tubing, you could install 1/2" T-nuts into the back of the wood strip and use bolts with lock tight instead of lag screws.
So if what you did on your rv is a potential failure deterant why don't they recall the rv's do the extra reinforcement before the frame fails? It's just easier to act like they don't know what you are talking about. "Frame flex? I've never seen that woman before in my life." 😂😂😂😂
Lippert frame manufacturer has to frames standard and heavy duty frame . 1 third blame is Lippert and 1 third is rv manufacturer and 1 third is the tow vehicle. To much truck or towing to fast . We have a 2012 Rockwood fifth wheel so far so good. I tow at 60 miles per hour not any faster. The faster you go the more head pressure the front of your rv gets stressed .
Question. Do you feel it would be effective adding an epoxy to the holes before screwing the lags in? Similar to mounting anchors in a concrete slab? Im considering this.
I am thankful people such as you and Jared can identify these things and fix them yourselves. But there are a lot of people who don’t have that skill set, but will have that problem. That is why I feel the manufacturer should take some responsibility again if you have overloaded your RV then it’s on you, but if you were within your weight limit and haven’t done any crazy modifications, I feel that the manufactures should provide a means to get these fixes put in place.
JD, that's exactly what the tech did when he came to our site to prepare for transport. He used a glue I'd never heard of before when he installed the lag screws.
I’m shocked to see a Reflection missing so many lag bolts. We have been dealing with this problem and our newly installed lag bolts are backing out AFTER having GD repair our frame breaks. We are having GD look at it once again to see where the repair will go next.
A real ISO certified department with qualified NDI inspectors eliminates the obvious wild West manufacturing of lippert and the RV manufacturer. Engineering disciplines nearly always disconnect from the installers. For example, Winnebago engineers second to none. But, their lack of installation QA and QC create hidden problems and some quite serious as I learned on our Winnebago View. Everything comes back to a certified international standard of QA and QC. From my experience as a QA and QC naval officer officer and consultant, the RV industry ignores QA and QC.
It seems to me like these are destined for failure using lag bolts to hold these together. I have never seen a short lag hold long term on things like a house deck. Thru bolting these like DRV and Riverstone do is a much better way.
Riverstone,DRV and Luxe use Lippert frames. They don’t have any frame failure! Main reason is all steel box frames,3.5”walls and superior wall attached to the frame. JD love’s Riverstone’s and has said he has never heard of a frame failure in a Riverstone. We are on the Riverstone forum’s and no one has ever said anything about that issue.
Having watched this and many other frame flex/failure videos, I would never buy a large 5th wheel from any of the US manufacturers. They clearly have no idea how to build anything with structural integrity, even for $150,000 or more. Badly welded steel frames, lag bolts drilled into split, soft wood inside square tubes, terrible workmanship, little to no dealer support, worthless warranties - I will stay in hotels and avoid all the hassles. I know, we probably couldn't afford properly engineered and well-built products, but these are just plain junk and I will never buy one. If ever there was a case for government-enforced design standards and inspections, this has to be it. Wake up RV industry - you have just burned us too often with your pathetically bad products and poor customer support.
People can already afford it, and it's what they expect. The manufacturers just aren't doing it, and it's not because they "have no idea how to build anything with structural integrity."
Yeah. More confirmation that RVs are junk. Time is the only variable. It's only a matter of time before you find out what and where your RV is going to fail. I have a Lance. They get a lot of hype but it's practically disintegrating. Started out with quirks, now the lower half stick built garbage is collapsing. That started after about 6 years of full time use. RVs are NOT designed for full time use. Hence, they are basically junk. RV recreational vehicle for you, Revenu Vehicle for manufactures. You have to sign a statement on your warranty that states your warranty doesn't apply! Or they won't sell it to you. What does that say?
Many of the videos I've seen where people have torn into their GDs, those bolts have been missing. Going back to BTBRV's video with Lippert, that would be considered part of the 'super structure', or the frame and body working together as designed. I understand that is mostly, but not only, a GD issue, but it seems GD took a short cut (negligent) on the building of these RVs and should be responsible to make it right with all customers, regardless of ownership, or warranty status. I am not a fifth wheel owner at this time, but I will never buy a Grand Design RV after seeing all the videos of how they have treated customers. The RV industry needs a set of codes and inspectors similar to the building industry.
Yes I don’t think this has been good for Grand Design. If they would have done a recall and made corrections in production it would have cost a lot of money but would gain them in consumer confidence leading to more sells.
Great video and great information. I totally agree on all fronts with you Jared. When I worked at a lumber yard and talked to contractors, they all said the exact same thing you said in regards to making changes off the engineers approved plans and it really got me w]seeing the loose lag bolts. My mind said, 5 holes needs 5 bolts, maybe some LVL material to screw them into, then a flat washer and a lock washer between the lag bolt head and the OSB, the flat washer to give the lock washer a solid surface to flatten out and compress as designed to do and the lock washer to stop the g]bolt from backing out. Another common fastener option would be a GRK style screw, an engineered lag bolt replacement option that is smaller in diameter. I have sense moved into the welding trade and I can tell you that any good weld takes time to do properly and needs to not be rushed. In my simple mind it boils down to: follow what the engineer called out, 5 holes means 5 bolts are used and are of proper size and attachment instructions not matter what. In all that, you did a great job and I truly enjoy the great videos you put out. Loads of great i formation that is explained very well. 👍🏻
Holes were put there for a reason………. Still wondering why screws are being used to attach frame to wall, carriage bolt through wall and frame would be more reassuring. Imagine holding your car body to your car frame with screws and wood. And this gets past the D.O.T. Try that on a semi truck and see how far it gets you.
Hi The main frame should NEVER EVER be designed to rely on the skin or anything else of the trailer for strength. You will NEVER EVER find a lowboy or highboy hauling heavy equipment that depends on the wooden planking for part of the strength of the trailer. Build a frame strong enough in the first place. Thanks for listening!
I totally agree. Paraphrasing Matthew 7:24-27, only a fools builds his house on sand. As far as I'm concerned, Lippert sucks. I will not buy a trailer with a frame made by Lippert. A few of the smaller manufacturers make their own frames. I would like to see Jared check with them to see if frame flex is an issue.
Jared, will post the answer to many who question why only 2 lag screws instead of 5?. The missing 3 lag screws on each side seems to be a gross oversight which more than likely would lead to excessive flexing and eventually frame failure. I too am questioning the use of lag screws into alum box tubing stuffed with wood 2x2's. It seems when the larger trailers with drop frames and massive storage became the "perfect storm" to create the failing frames. I too want to see a better attachment method to build a stronger combined structure that will handle the heavier weights and loading conditions experienced in the larger 5th wheels. All in all an excellent video!
As an auto Tech [Retired] I watched manufacturers ''skimp'' on fastners in the past...and most of the time it came back to bite us in the keester! Now, as an RV owner, I see this all the time! After problems with our first rig, I now go front to back looking for these issues and others. Iwould have done the exact same thing you did with the lag's...sure would be great if they could take the time to weld nut bungs into the frame or frame plates, like you said, lags into wood in such a critical area is questionable! great job Jared!
I agree that if you have 5 holes, there should be 5 lag bolts. To me though, whether is 3/8 or 1/2 inch lags, there is less than an inch or so in the wood. Wood, bouncing down the road, seems to me it would lose a little "bite" over time. They should switch to bolts with red LocTite that go into a type nyloc nut that won't loosen up. The RV is only as strong as its weakest link and this looks like a poor way to attach walls on something that encounters "earthquakes" on every travel day! The RV industry is at a tipping point and the first one to figure it out and massively advertise their benefits and quality will be the big winner.
Every time I see people talking about converting their 5th wheel to a gooseneck I cringe. I suspect many of them fail due to the change in how force is applied to the frame. We're gonna see similar issues from diesel owners who think deleting their DEF systems is a good idea, too.
Just a quick update of how to make this even better is some have suggested bolting through to the outside of the wall. As you could imagine this would be much stronger and full-proof than the lags but obviously has complications like hardware penetrating the exterior fiberglass. I love the idea of trying to get a bolt inside the wall or something like a Rivnut but there are difficulties to make that happen. The lowest hanging fruit is to use an Epoxy adhesive injected into the wall that the lag is then held in place by. I am going to try the Epoxy and see how that does to see if the easiest solution will work. Some people were asking about the spacing of our holes, which appeared a random to me, but here is what they are from rear to front since I had the back 2 for reference.
8 9/16", 10 3/8", 9 1/2", 9 1/4". Sorry metric would have been nice I know.
ua-cam.com/video/LSJpKWELlBg/v-deo.html
We have a new 24 Reflection 5th wheel 27BH. I checked today & found only 2 lag bolts as you did. They are tight for the moment, do you think I should add more or wait until th warrant is up?
@@jopo9359 Now. An ounce of prevention, is worth a pound of cure.
I would put the lag bolts in wet with an adhesive that would bond to the wood, epoxy would work, sort of like LocTite. The problem with lag bolts and wood is verry different rates of expansion and contraction if you are driving through changing temperatures. The other problem is moisture, this is where a bonding medium may help to maintain a better connection.
@@dbraymore Wood Glue would be just fine.
Expoxy will not soak into the wood enough.
Gorilla glue would be best, but it is messy.
Are you happy with the change adding more lag screws? Have you pulled the filon? I have a 2023 311BHS and it only has 2 lags. Considering adding more.
Did you drill all the way into the aluminum/wood and then install the lags?
I’m no structural engineer but I have a hard time believing 2 lag bolts in a 5 hole frame would pass a structure audit. Excellent video Jared!
I couldn't agree more. Lag bolts holding metal together is ridiculous.
Especially when using a 1x2 as the anchor 😂😂
@@Rcoon3Right, this is unbelievable. I was watching some manufacturing videos of Arctic fox campers, those rails are loaded with 2x4’s.
Seems there should be a recall. Sounds like from more than one manufacturer.
@@dlsimes it’s funny because I keep hearing about other manufacturers, but for some reason the same models with grand design keep popping up. Never anything else. Not saying it’s not happening, I’m just not seeing it in my feed.
My GD Solitude S2930 RL (34’ long) has a broken front structure - missing 2 lag screws in bedroom, screws were only 3/8” instead of 1/2”. Service center found an additional 6+ bolts under front TPO pinbox covering and broken flat steel wall sills on both sides.
Waiting on next step - Service stated it needs to go back to factory - GD said they will cover and make repairs.
All About RV's You should drill through to outside & use 5/16 th. Coach Bolts with Nylock Nuts & Repair washers , Paint the slight dome heads same colour as outer panels , then you'll be able to wrench them up tight.
I’ve thought about that. Just not sure I want the bolts on the outside.
Great job…about to self fix this myself.
It's to the point that people need to check the frame out regularly just like checking tires and springs. It pays to keep the tow vehicle in mind too. I'd make sure the suspension is working well. If the tow vehicle has hard springs or air bags that are pumped up to the max it could add extra jarring that the manufacturer's engineer never accounted for.
This is a fantastic video. Would you be able to provide the measurements for the bolt lengths and the distance you found between them?
I’m wondering the same thing what length lag bolts did you use
I own a 33ft Jayco Eagle Series 5th wheel, no issues with flex. Might be one reason Jayco makes their own frames.
Sorry, there are 5th wheels, of a certain brand, that are having rear frame failure also, and especially around the pull outs.
Great job! Please share on Grand Design RV Owners - What’s In The Shop with Dustin
At some level I disagree with the owners taking responsibility for this particular issue. Only time it makes sense if the unit has been abused, overloaded and such. Short of that, I have NO expectation to check the head bolts on my 2024 F450 6.7L PowerStroke, or even my leaf spring shackle bolts to keep my truck on the road. Now if the truck is 10 years old, yeah, I might need to start watching things other than normal maintenance. It’s important to NOT let Grand Design get away with, first, terrible engineering, then secondly cheating out in the manufacturing process potentially creating a financial wipeout for the consumer at best, DEATH in an avoidable accident at worst.
What this reminds me of is Ford back in the 70’s saving 15 cents on every Pinto, only to have the wrong bolt installed causing them to explode when in a rear end accident. This led to many folks being killed. So every UA-camr that even HINTS that this could be an owned maintenance issue, or they are the cause are the problem should stop doing this. There should be total condemnation of Grand Design for what has happened here and their total, until recently writing a letter that doesn’t mean ANYTHING, lack of accepting responsibility. All influencers should have enough integrity, whether they own one or not to stand together and not let them off the hook until every RV manufactured in the last 5 years at least, has been fully repaired or replaced without consideration if they are the 1st owner or the third owner. There should also be an NTSB investigation into car crashes with these Grand Design 5th wheels. I spent nearly 17 years in airplane manufacturing and Grand Design’s technics and engineering is beyond irresponsible. There should be countersunk flush mount bolts with nuts with tube inserts in the side walls taking into account different metals (fay sealed/wet install bolts) I’m guessing every 6” in this area. Leave the wood in the wood yard, with proper manufacturing it’s not needed and just adds weight.
It’s great you are being proactive.But why five holes and only two bolts.I think it is poor quality control.Regardless they should be built so these problems don’t occur.The manufacturers of the frames and RV builders should step up and fix these problems.
Thinking thru bolts with nuts and washers would work way better than a lag bolt. Just need a way to camouflage the bolt heads on outside of rig.
Yes that is the trick but I think possible. One thought I have is a welded on L bracket to the inside of the wall that bolts to the chassis. I think it could work the problem is how to incorporate it efficiently into production.
Just curious did you check the drivers side to see if it only had two lag bolts in it, and I’d GD gave you an explanation as to why there were only two?
At the 6:05 mark you are showing the wood filled framing member. I can’t figure out where that is in relation to the sidewall, the black steel or the OSB that you stripped the carpet from. That brief video section seems to be below in the propane bay? If so, are you just showing that as an example of what is behind the wall in the bedroom?
It Affects the Buyers Meaning Us owners.
Well done Jared, well balanced take.
Fantastic video. I will be checking my upper deck. Thankfully I have the upgraded Rhino upper deck.
Did you do the other side?
I've asked other yt people covering frame flex but I didn't get a response. I did however get a few rude comments directed to me from commenters on that UA-camrs channel. . I'd appreciate your take on what I've observed and have questions on. I've seen at RV parks 3rd axel 5th wheels backing into a space dragging or pushing the 3rd axel tire that is semi stationary in a 45-90 degree turn. My question is. When larger Fifth wheels back in those 45-,90 degree angles, does the truck pushing at the pin box to 3rd axel semi stationary tire twist the frame and structure from 3rd axel to pin box? Another question, Some 5th wheel people pull into parks stay connected to their trucks, they drop levelers which looks like it lifts the truck, they extend slides etc. Is this a good or bad decision? Thanks for sharing
Great first start but maybe who ever builds these flex frames should combine two learned Engineers and two trailer builders out side the rv industry with common sense from experience to tackle this problem. Adding a solid plate on top to keep metal from cracking and welds from breaking along with corner plates to reinforce perpendicular connections. Be care what you identify to be a engineer in this industry.🤔
I’m surprised that the design included ‘lag bolts’ for a structure that rolls down the road. Surprised they are not using tension and shear type bolts and nuts.
I would ditch the lag bolts and move to Rivet bolts. I just don't see any lag bolts holding in that thin wood backing.
So we saw your situation and repair for one side of your fifth wheel. What did the other side look like? Did it only have 2 lag bolts as well?
Yes it only had 2 lags as well but they were holding better. I did use a screw to find the frame holes and then put lags in them. I left the carpet on that side for now.
I have a 2020 Arctic Wolf 3660SUITE. The BIG one. Recently I started seeing vertical lines bulging out roughly 3-4' apart as if the skeleton was trying to escape. I discovered a bulge now at the rear corner of the front bed slide. Last year the floor above the stairs at the rear cargo hatch busted loose from the side wall. I drove new screws in after drawing the floor to the wall with clamps, but the bulges on the drivers side, some are very recent even though we have not gone anywhere since last May. I wonder if this is due to frame issues. It is in the shop, dropped it off this morning.
Hopefully they can get it figured out quickly and properly!
Thank you very very much for making this video. I have a Forest River 5th wheel Artic Wolf, and I've been seeing two lag bolts in our bedroom area sticking out from the carpet area after a trip. I screwed them back in, but after a trip, they are back out. I have been scared to do what you did because of the unknown of what I was going to find or how was I going to fix it. Now that I saw your video I feel I can concur my fears and fix it with larger lag bolts.
Was using larger lag bolts the only thing you did to secure the wall besides adding additional bolts?
Thank you
This is concerning, I thought the issues were only with large toy haulers.😮
That was a great video. Thank you
nice video...but what it boils down to is that Grand Design under-engineered their 5th wheels and are paying the price for it. Customers should not have to being doing this to their rv's. Yes, people do tend to push the limit with overloading, but the rv manufacturer should account for this to a degree. Grand Design is speaking up now about their poor product because they will soon go bankrupt if they dont help their customers. Hope you dont get "cracks or flex" but you do own a Grand Design...Good luck!
Congrats, you have shown “all” owners that there might be “defects” in their rigs and that they should check them. Your channel is much better than the others……
What are your measurements between the lag bolts?
Yes, so mine were a bit random and from back of RV to the front (since I had the rear ones in it was a good reference) 8 9/16", 10 3/8", 9 1/2", 9 1/4".
I also didn't pull the carpet yet on the other side but used these measurements to get close to where the holes were and then used a screw that would go through the OSB and you could feel when there was a void there. It was less destructive than trying to find it with a drill bit. Hope that helps.
It never ceases to amaze me how poorly constructed mass-market RVs are.
Buy Keystone having owning 2019 and travel over 50k miles no problem
I do agree that there are owners overloading their campers, and there is no doubt that the RV manufacturers aren't always fastening everything to the frame as they should, like your camper, however I think the vast majority of these problems are do to a very weak engineered frame. The thickeness of the steel is too thin, which leads to excessive flexing and thin welds. Concerning the performance of the frame, it should not matter how securely those thin wood and foam walls are attached, so as long as they dont go anywhere. If the foundation of your house was buckling or collapsing, would you blame the contractor for not fastening the walls better to the concrete? Are the walls responsible for holding the foundation together? Of course not! These campers are not cardboard boxes, nor are they shipping containers. Those types of structures rely on the walls for structural support, but a camper should not. Its a trailer with a box on it, not a box with wheels attached.
That opening clip made me think you were drilling straight in to the side of your camper 😰😅
You were working on the one side of your camper - what about the other side frame/wall structure? Did you find the same issue (number of lags)?
Why not rivnuts or machine thread nuts welded into the frame? Seems like too many beam counters have maximized undeserved profits at the expense of the customers
Yes either of those would be great options and much much stronger.
Great video 👍 😊
The question I would raise when they were building thousands more frames were they using US made steel and qualified welders
I don’t accept the statement about the walls stiffening the frame. I see it as the frame supports the walls and takes all the loads the walls can put into it visually the bolted connections. If someone’s suggesting the structure of the RV is a uni-body, I respectfully suggest it is not.
No its predominantly grand Design!
Bigger is not always better. The larger the diameter of the bolt or lag, the larger of substrate it need to screw into. Minimum the 1/2 lag screwed into would be 2 inches wide and at least 2 inches thick. A fat lag and small piece of wood will split the wood. And depending also on what type of wood it is screwed into, cheap pine will split, most soft woods will split without a pilot hole. The answer by GD to put larger lags in was poor to say the least.
What about the other side?
For more bolts to be added by you rather than the mfg, tells me the companies are doing the minimum…
It is totally asinine to buy a brand new fifth wheel and then expect the owners to take the carpeting out and check the bolts. I understand maintenance starts as soon as you take possession but this is ridiculous. When calling GD, instead of telling you to add lag bolts, they should have apologized and fixed it right away for free. It appears their solution to problems is to tell you anything to get you off the phone completely. In my RV market search, GD is off my list.
What other brands are you considering?
I agree I think on the frame issues the manufacturers should say hey bring it in and will repair it. Even if they charge a minimal cost of just the repair work for those that are five years or older. As long as you did, not alter the RV beyond the specifications.
Boeing buyers also need to remove trim on new airplanes and check if the bolts have been installed properly. 😮
GD has become another pig with lipstick, just like the rest of the manufacturers. VanLeigh was a quality unit until they were closed down. Brinkley is doing the best job producing a quality RV.
@@enarandyr9122 since Brinkley is run by GD people, I doubt that very much.
You, JD, Josh & everyone else doing videos on this issue are ALL feeding us BS hoping that we are as stupid as you think we are. The REAL ISSUE is that Lippert and ALL RV manufacturers with these issues, are not willing to accept any responsibility for building a piece of crap. Relying on a few lag bolts into 1'"of wood to support 14,000 lbs of trailer is ridiculous. The whole concept of the side wall being such a big part of the structural integrity is backwards thinking. The side walls should only be additional support. AS for the welds, if they were any good, they would not break, the surrounding metal would fail first. Jared, you're right All owners should be inspecting their units on a regular schedule . They should be looking at tires, roof condition, caulking, visually checking suspension components, but to expect owners to inspect for welds and loose mounting bolts is crazy. At most they should not ignore any body cracks. But it should never be expected that they take any responsibility for the failing frame. Would you take any responsibility if your truck frame started to fail, "HELL NO" you wouldn't. You'd be your truck dealers worst nightmare. So why is an RV any different. Wake up people!!
I agree with you completely.
I have stopped watching and supporting these channels that are continuously taking up for the manufacturers.
We need to support those channels who support and stand up for the consumer.
It is very obvious in this video that the RV is not adequately assembled to not fail.
They are banking on the RV just making it to the minimum years of the warranty or being sold to a second owner so they are no longer liable.
They are liable in every definition.
Car manufacturers would have already been forced to recall.
Something has to be done.
Unfortunately the two of you are incorrect on this issue. RV repair is all I do and have done for 40 years. The “pin box” weight (how much wt exerted downward at the king pin) is never mentioned . This is why the mfg’s will grease the squeaky wheel ONLY when they know with certainty there is a defect.
It doesn't even seem to be the actual frame (meaning the steel lippert frame underneath the RV) that's flexing. It's the superstructure being improperly attached to the frame and not rigid enough itself that's flexing and breaking.
Josh and JD are big part of the problem too. Josh tried to tell me that the giant bubbles all the roof of the trailer he was reviewing on his channel were from "out gassing" how many people has he told that to. JD I don't know where to start
I've been a carpenter since 1990. Only a complete idiot would design something that constantly moves to be held together with grade 2 (the lowest) lag bolts fastened into a piece of soft 1x2. They should be using something like huck bolts.
I have a2021 Reflection 31MB and dealt with this about 6 months ago. I added 2 more lags on each side of the bedroom - total of 4. Due to excessive pin box movement independent of the upper deck, off came the front filon. I only had access to 2 lags per side due to upper deck flooring. All 4 were undersized and loose. Upsized to 1/2” and then spot welded the head to the frame to prevent loosening. Ugly part…the frame strap supporting wall only had 3 screws, sloppily installed at an angle, and counter sink screws were used on flat surface. All showed signs of pulling out. Replaced all frame strap screws with 6 ledger lags per side. Buttoned up and it’s a different trailer when underway. Solid feel and flex is what you would expect when in tow. Minimal,inadequate, and incorrect fastening of upper deck to frame. Poor construction by Grand Design in my case.
The fact a lag bolt is used instead of a threaded (bolt and nut) fastener is a major issue and should be the focus. As an mech engineer with 18+ years of machine/structure design I would never spec a lag bolt into composite aluminum/wood, even if its in shear, especially on a mobile unit that is under constant vibration/stress/strain when in motion. The engineers that approved this should be ashamed. Period.
I agree with you, a nut and bolt would be far superior. I don't own a 5th wheel, but as I watched this, I started wondering how I would fix this. I wonder if that wood, in the aluminum tube could be removed. If so could a length of angle or C channel aluminum be slid if there? If that could be done, then once the additional piece was added, the bolt holes from the frame could be marked. Then remove the additional angle ( C channel ) from the tube, drill holes and fasten some nuts in place. Slide it back in and use some bolts through the frame with some locktite to bolt into the the nuts and lock everything together. Anyways, hopefully sombody comes up with a better solution than just lag bolts in a thin piece of wood.
Just not any nut and bolt should be used. What should be used, is a grade 8 nut and bolt. These are have a higher tensile strength.
Also don't forget about the strength of the steel itself. There is good quality steel and cheap steel. They may have the same gauge, but the difference in the make up of the steel is totally different.
Instead of having wood inside those narrow channels, and using lag bolts, they should have captured nuts in those channels so the bolts can be directly threaded into the channel.
That would be much more secure.
Exactly what I was thinking.
OSB strand board and lag bolts have NO business in any RV. After seeing this for the past few years at RV shows I bought an older used unit that is wood-free. Making excuses for poor quality frame welds because the manufacturer is too busy making quota won’t make the manufacturer change their ways. It’s about profit and nothing else.
The best answer.
I’ve had a fair amount of experience with this issue on my 2019 320 VanLeigh 5er (installed sleeve anchors myself 3yrs ago, had manufacture add wood into the channels, and last summer Tiffin pulled cap and added internal aluminum structure to the walls as well as additional bolts etc between frame and wall). I’ve also watched many, many frame flex videos over the last few weeks just for curiosity and entertainment. Your video was BY FAR THE BEST ONE OUT THERE about understanding the real problem, being objective, and recommending some real solutions.
Great job!!
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he's mostly on Telegrams, using the user-name
Sorry but if it is so important how the walls are attached to the frame why in the heck, did anybody think two lag bolts are going to hold for any length of time and most RV owners are not builders like yourself or garage mechanics there relying on the manufacturer to put out a good product.
I follow you and Big Truck Big RV because of your balanced and reasonable approach to RV issues. Thanks.
Well stated opinions in this video!
Just my opinion. Lag bolts are made to attach something to wood that is continuous along the threads. Putting a lag bolt into aluminum tube and a tiny piece of wood that will absolutely split, is a misapplication of a fastener.
Imagine having to go through this with your safety related problems with your vehicle. The RV industry has convinced us that their products are of questionable build quality and the related problems are to be expected. They’ve also gradually exposed us to the concept of “you probably caused it” or “not our problem that’s the supplier’s problem”. From 5 decades of RV ownership I can honestly say that they’re almost all poorly built and as long as we keep buying them they have no motivation to build them better.
Still not satisfied why GD left 3 lag bolt holes w/o lag bolts installed. Great video!
Exactly…the video just showed what terrible engineering looks like.
Tired of people making excused for this company.
So that may have been on purpose (but possibly not) as now with 5 bolts the wall may be too rigid when going down the road and break something else. The 5 holes could be for different models are even manufacturers that require different placement. I don't know this for sure, but many years ago I worked in manufacturing for a company making fighter jets. There were parts that had holes that appeared to be never used. But, the part may have been used else where on the plane where the hole was used. Or, a hole was cut for future modifications and cheaper to do it that way. Again, could be many reasons for holes not used. Again, don't know in this case but from an engineering / manufacturing standpoint there are many possiblities.
@@fuzzywigglebutt Unlikely. I can think no circumstance you’d want a loose wall on a major structure. Especially when you are talking about cheap lag bolts into minimum wood/aluminum structure. In this case you want ZERO movement.
@@fuzzywigglebutt IRONICALLY, this is exactly what Grand Design told me when I asked them about Jarreds video. they told me that those wholes were for different models, and by adding more bolts I would be transferring stress elsewhere on the rig; the holes were not used to allow a certain amount of flex needed to avoid stress elsewhere. I dont know who to believe. It shouldn't be like this. it should be that I have to become an engineer to make sure my rv is built safe.
I think the manufacturers, especially Lippert, could probably also invest in technology to help make sure the welders are able to consistently get good, fast welds. It might be overkill to start deploying robot welders like cars use, especially since they make so many versions of the frames, but that doesn't mean that new welders with features that help make sure the person doing the welding can focus on the welding itself while the machine handles the adjustments or using different types of welding could help ensure flawless welds every time. If nothing else, it would take some pressure off the welders and allow them to really focus and not feel a time crunch.
From friends I know who work in Elkhart at some of the manufacturers, they use every trick in the book to put the, mainly contractors, doing the actual assembly under a time crunch to ensure they're always trying to go as fast as possible. While that may roll more units off the line, experience has shown, across any industry, that constantly trying to operate at the absolute maximum pace will always lead to compromises somewhere. I've been told that part of why there's so much sawdust coming out of new RVs is because they no longer budget time for the contractors to clean up, if they spend time doing that they're getting fewer units done and getting paid less. That anecdote alone tells you a lot.
Big Truck Big RV is a sellout and got plenty of well deserved blow back on his interviews of Lippert. He asked the Lippert employees questions and then proceeded to answer his own questions not giving the Lippert employees an opportunity to fully reply. He got so much blowback from that as well as his comments that placed the blame on consumers rather then the RV manufacturers and Lippert that he had to issue an apology video as I suspect the purpose of which was to stem the losses of subscribers.
Jared, I have been a NRVIA Certified Inspector going on 5 years now. I been following your channel for several years. This problem is a lot bigger than both Lippert or GD are letting on. IMHO the problem is two fold questionable welds along with under engineering the connection between the frame and house. I'm not an engineer however 3 of my kids are..Lol
Relying on two undersized lag bolts to hold one of the most stressed areas together is negligence imo. The penny pinchers at the RV factories are going to cost the companies a lot more money in the long run with these very short sighted cost saving efforts.
Owners of these larger toy haulers and 5th wheels should be very concerned about resale values. I've already had numerous customers that have asked me to inspect toy haulers to see if they have frame issues. Then I have to break the bad news to them that it's not possible to tell if there are broken welds or missing components without tearing things apart and we just don't do that as part of an RV inspection. As part of my consulting business I have advised potential buyers what to look for and if there are any concerns to walk away and they have ! It's already affecting potential purchases and I believe that will continue to grow as buyers gain knowledge of the issue not just with GD but all manufacturers of these larger units.
Kudos to Brinkley for being forthcoming about the issue and at least attempting to prevent the problem with a better connection.
I own a GD trailer built pre- COVID. I wouldn't even consider a GD product if I decide to upgrade to a larger unit. Not a chance....
Asking aluminium box fitted with undersized timber to be a major structural part of construction is surely the problem.
The oversized holes and small bolts combine in movement,and that timber inside the aluminium is going to fail .
The under engineering with these RV structures is part of the issues,but they try to say that everything is engineered designs,Rubbish it's cheap engineering.
Still waiting to see someone Annalise the steel used in the frames ,prove that it is American Steel and what it's made up of
As a full time RVer touring the US, we see a lot. The number of 40ft+ toy haulers that seem to be loaded to the max is normal. While we were in St George UT., I saw a couple toy haulers loaded with equipment STACKED in the back. The overhang past the rear axle on these units is huge. The example I refer to above, the driver had to set additional jacks under the rear frame before he opened the ramp. If this is required, I would assume the mfg would have provided jacks at those points. And who knows how that trailer handled going down the road at highway speed with so much weight on the backend. Ownership responsibility is absolutely required. At the same time, mfg - as you clearly showed in this video (Grand Design!) - should build these just a bit better. Like using 5 one half inch lags rather than 2 three-eights lags. After all, they drilled holes for 5. Spend the extra $6 per side and do it right. And BTBRV video was good, but like you showed on your trailer, they can talk all they want, but the quality just isn't there. I guess we need government regulation here since we're talking about serious investments in RVs, and dealers/mfg wash their hands as soon as you're off the lot. And if you finance, you agree to sign away any real rights in arbitration. Look at your contract. Another great video.
I'm a welder, I went from a job doing military items inspected by a in plant government inspector (that was quality before quantity) to a job that was mass production (quantity over quality) and the unwritten rule was only fix what the inspector catches! That's how the company increases it's profits. So sad.
Not all welders worked by that unwritten rule!
Jared, with all the people talking about this, you were the first person to say that everyone has some responsibility for these problems. I was taught you have to take care of your stuff if you want to keep it nice. I also agree with others here that if there were five holes, there should have been five bolts. I would rather see a flat bolt head on the outside wall than I know it goes the whole way thru. Lag bolts seem like the wrong fasteners for this application.
Again, great balanced take, keep up the good work. Safe travels and happy camping.
Actually Josh from Josh the RV Nerd at Bish's RV UA-cam Channel said that everyone bears some blame, including the dealerships. He had a great video like this one that also helped explain this whole situation.
I agree on the lag bolt issue, not the right fastener hardware for that application
Great video! I discovered a crack in my side wall last October and quickly learned that I had the dreaded frame flex issue. My rig is a 35' 2020 Keystone Alpine. The shop found, like yours, that many of the lag bolt holes were empty, and also most of the dead wood inside the square tube was missing. But the biggest problem with mine was that the philon siding was not glued / bonded to the aluminum structure except around the edges. I am told that the primary strength in the side walls comes from the bond between the fiberglass and the aluminum. In my case there were no broken welds. Just too much flexing which caused the side wall to eventually fail. Thanks again for this discussion, as I think it explains how important it is to actually build the rig to the engineers specs and stop cutting corners.
Jared, you have done a fantastic job explaining this problem. I do not presently own a towable but own a class A and have owned 8 RV’s over 40 years.
I’m a Retired heavy construction professional with an engineering degree. You could not have explained this any better or clearer. It’s not all the manufacturers fault, but they have their share of responsibility to make these better. Two bolts may have worked on paper but obviously didn’t meet actual use and road conditions.
I get why people are upset and it is harder to own an RV if you’re not able to do some work on them, maintain them, weight them and understand them. It’s sold to them as a carefree lifestyle. None of my 8 rigs were without issues.
You have created a video everyone, regardless what type RV they are considering, should view.
Thank you
I am a retired tool and die maker and I have so much comment to add to this video, but I don't have the time. The point I'm going to TOUCH on is, thread engagement! All threads have a helix angle! In this discussion, the mating structure of the rv is thin structural tube, 90 deg's. Mathematically, this works as a single point of contact, helix on the thread vs rectangular tube. Lag bolts are generally(ish) 8-10 threads per inch. The wall thickness of the tubing is typically not more than 1/8", which leaves a material engagement thickness of, 1 thread engagement! There is no way this is a structurally positive thread engagement! Fastener failure is pretty much guaranteed! It won't matter if the forces are "in shear" or "pull out", sooner or later, that fastener is going to fail!
Requiring that the outer shell provide rigidity to the frame is incredibly bad engineering design. The frame alone should be able to accommodate the load with room for a very large safety factor.
I think you are being too nice to the RV manufacturers. This 100% falls on the manufacturers. There are always going to be some people overloading a vehicle of any kind. That is not the issue here. These frames would flex (aka fail) with no weight in them. From all the deconstruct videos out there, you can see that the manufacturer install is shoddy and inadequate at best. Your loose lag bolt is a prime example. Hard to believe they use a lag bolt in a area designed for flexing and vibrating down the road. Yes owners have responsibility. I like seeing all these videos because it exposes how these pieces are put together and the flaws in the original install. If an RV is overloaded, and a deconstruct is done, it would be pretty evident that the overloaded/overweight was the cause, and the original install method is adequate. That is not what we are seeing here.
I'm sure you could blame the owners for a percentage of the issues. But I've seen threads about brand new units, nothing in them, having frame failure on the way home from the dealer with it. If there's a percentage of units that are DOA, would mean there could be a higher percentage of those that just haven't failed YET. I think they need to re-engineer the front super structure. Reinforce it with gusset plates and cross members. Maybe you add some weight, and lose a window. These things shouldn't be on the brink of failure so easily.
I was interested so I went to check ours in that area. I have always seen the two lag bolts were there, never checked them. Mine were loose, loose enough I can back them out by my fingers, with no washers and why go thru the carpet with them? I took them out, pulled the carpet, pulled the wood box they build around that frame piece and low and behold......I too have 5 holes on each! What the heck GD! I placed 3 more lags per side, with washers and for good measure I coated each lag with gorilla glue to help them not back out. Now for the intriguing part. Our bedroom floor at the top of the stairs always had a creaking sound when walking on it, the sidewalls in that area always sounded kinda loose and hollow, just figured since the trailer is a 150 series it was thinner and lighter and when placing the trailer on the truck there was always a creaking sound on both walls under each window. I assumed this was normal cause of all that weight coming down one a single attachment point when on the truck. Well, the bedroom floor doesn't creak when walking on it, the walls feel solid and zero creaking sound when hitching up. Unbelievable! Maybe all of that was supposed to move a little? Maybe we are not supposed to have all 5 lags attached to the wall, time will tell but now I feel better at least. I doubt I would have ever had the issue some owners are having with frame issues, we do not have any slides in the bedroom and we are only 32.4 ft. We own a 2020 GD 295RL. 150 series. Actually, fingers crossed never had a major problem just the usual trim pieces coming off. 4 years and 16k miles. Thanks for the insight
The the question of unbalance owner vs Manufacturer, Lets look at this in another vision.
HOW many other RV's in the past, have had to have the OWNERS go through the coach to replace lag bolts, add metal and experience wall and floor failures before Grand Design?????
That seems to be the question, I know of almost NONE.
The extra effort you are doing is because you bought a Grand Design and the frame is in trouble. That is not the owners fault, it came from the factory faulty.
I have a Grand Design and have loose lag bolts that I questioned about in the beginning. No big deal I was told by the dealer. I will definitely check them again and add more if I can.
👍🏼
As always, outstanding video my friend!
Thanks JD!
My experience with lag bolts in areas of heat and cold cycles, is they will loosen over time!!! Maybe glue them in. Good fix, but keep an eye on them.
Good point! Also, the movement and vibration of going down the road will cause them to loosen over time. I don't know how how it could work in the manufacturing process but bolts, washers, and lock nuts would be more appropriate for a structure subjected to vibration than lag bolts.
Thanks for the video, and showing your repair! I would think that having 5 holes and only 2 bolts is because 2 bolts is enough to get past a 1 year warranty. For most users, one year is only 2 to 4 trips, and not enough time/use to have the bolts work loose to where the owner has a warranty claim. It would be interesting to see the engineer drawings to determine if they call for 2 or 5 lags to see if production is following the engineered plans. You might add some locktite to the lags to create a chemical bond to prevent them loosening.
Love the idea of adding a chemical bond as well.
@AllAboutRVs if the wood could be removed from the square tubing, you could install 1/2" T-nuts into the back of the wood strip and use bolts with lock tight instead of lag screws.
So if what you did on your rv is a potential failure deterant why don't they recall the rv's do the extra reinforcement before the frame fails? It's just easier to act like they don't know what you are talking about. "Frame flex? I've never seen that woman before in my life." 😂😂😂😂
Lippert frame manufacturer has to frames standard and heavy duty frame . 1 third blame is Lippert and 1 third is rv manufacturer and 1 third is the tow vehicle. To much truck or towing to fast . We have a 2012 Rockwood fifth wheel so far so good. I tow at 60 miles per hour not any faster. The faster you go the more head pressure the front of your rv gets stressed .
Question. Do you feel it would be effective adding an epoxy to the holes before screwing the lags in? Similar to mounting anchors in a concrete slab? Im considering this.
That’s what GD is doing in the flex TSB issued
I am thankful people such as you and Jared can identify these things and fix them yourselves. But there are a lot of people who don’t have that skill set, but will have that problem. That is why I feel the manufacturer should take some responsibility again if you have overloaded your RV then it’s on you, but if you were within your weight limit and haven’t done any crazy modifications, I feel that the manufactures should provide a means to get these fixes put in place.
I agree and hope this video puts pressure on the industry to step up so these issues aren’t an issue any more.
Yes I do think that would be a good idea. The nozzle, for the epoxy mixing, could be long enough to get back to the wall too.
JD, that's exactly what the tech did when he came to our site to prepare for transport. He used a glue I'd never heard of before when he installed the lag screws.
GD needs to comment on the 2 lag bolts and 3 holes without lag bolts.
I’m shocked to see a Reflection missing so many lag bolts. We have been dealing with this problem and our newly installed lag bolts are backing out AFTER having GD repair our frame breaks. We are having GD look at it once again to see where the repair will go next.
Frame flex tears these cheap campers all apart and water leaks in and finishes them off.,...
A real ISO certified department with qualified NDI inspectors eliminates the obvious wild West manufacturing of lippert and the RV manufacturer. Engineering disciplines nearly always disconnect from the installers. For example, Winnebago engineers second to none. But, their lack of installation QA and QC create hidden problems and some quite serious as I learned on our Winnebago View. Everything comes back to a certified international standard of QA and QC. From my experience as a QA and QC naval officer officer and consultant, the RV industry ignores QA and QC.
I suspect no change management plan either.
It seems to me like these are destined for failure using lag bolts to hold these together. I have never seen a short lag hold long term on things like a house deck.
Thru bolting these like DRV and Riverstone do is a much better way.
Riverstone,DRV and Luxe use Lippert frames. They don’t have any frame failure! Main reason is all steel box frames,3.5”walls and superior wall attached to the frame. JD love’s Riverstone’s and has said he has never heard of a frame failure in a Riverstone. We are on the Riverstone forum’s and no one has ever said anything about that issue.
I haven’t heard of riverstone with the issue but Drv and luxe have had cases.
@@ericrowley18 I know DRV did years ago but they fixed them very quickly.
frame flex convinced me not to buy a 5th wheel trailer, I'll be staying with my bumper pull
Having watched this and many other frame flex/failure videos, I would never buy a large 5th wheel from any of the US manufacturers. They clearly have no idea how to build anything with structural integrity, even for $150,000 or more. Badly welded steel frames, lag bolts drilled into split, soft wood inside square tubes, terrible workmanship, little to no dealer support, worthless warranties - I will stay in hotels and avoid all the hassles. I know, we probably couldn't afford properly engineered and well-built products, but these are just plain junk and I will never buy one. If ever there was a case for government-enforced design standards and inspections, this has to be it. Wake up RV industry - you have just burned us too often with your pathetically bad products and poor customer support.
People can already afford it, and it's what they expect. The manufacturers just aren't doing it, and it's not because they "have no idea how to build anything with structural integrity."
Yeah. More confirmation that RVs are junk. Time is the only variable. It's only a matter of time before you find out what and where your RV is going to fail. I have a Lance. They get a lot of hype but it's practically disintegrating. Started out with quirks, now the lower half stick built garbage is collapsing. That started after about 6 years of full time use. RVs are NOT designed for full time use. Hence, they are basically junk. RV recreational vehicle for you, Revenu Vehicle for manufactures. You have to sign a statement on your warranty that states your warranty doesn't apply! Or they won't sell it to you. What does that say?
Many of the videos I've seen where people have torn into their GDs, those bolts have been missing. Going back to BTBRV's video with Lippert, that would be considered part of the 'super structure', or the frame and body working together as designed. I understand that is mostly, but not only, a GD issue, but it seems GD took a short cut (negligent) on the building of these RVs and should be responsible to make it right with all customers, regardless of ownership, or warranty status. I am not a fifth wheel owner at this time, but I will never buy a Grand Design RV after seeing all the videos of how they have treated customers. The RV industry needs a set of codes and inspectors similar to the building industry.
Yes I don’t think this has been good for Grand Design. If they would have done a recall and made corrections in production it would have cost a lot of money but would gain them in consumer confidence leading to more sells.
Great video and great information. I totally agree on all fronts with you Jared. When I worked at a lumber yard and talked to contractors, they all said the exact same thing you said in regards to making changes off the engineers approved plans and it really got me w]seeing the loose lag bolts. My mind said, 5 holes needs 5 bolts, maybe some LVL material to screw them into, then a flat washer and a lock washer between the lag bolt head and the OSB, the flat washer to give the lock washer a solid surface to flatten out and compress as designed to do and the lock washer to stop the g]bolt from backing out. Another common fastener option would be a GRK style screw, an engineered lag bolt replacement option that is smaller in diameter. I have sense moved into the welding trade and I can tell you that any good weld takes time to do properly and needs to not be rushed. In my simple mind it boils down to: follow what the engineer called out, 5 holes means 5 bolts are used and are of proper size and attachment instructions not matter what. In all that, you did a great job and I truly enjoy the great videos you put out. Loads of great i formation that is explained very well. 👍🏻
Holes were put there for a reason………. Still wondering why screws are being used to attach frame to wall, carriage bolt through wall and frame would be more reassuring. Imagine holding your car body to your car frame with screws and wood. And this gets past the D.O.T. Try that on a semi truck and see how far it gets you.
Another very informative and thorough video Jared! I too was impressed with JDs BigTruckBigRV videos on this subject. Very well done.
This is a great explanation of the frame flex issue addressing both sides of the story.
I have a hard time believing that the wood inside the aluminum tubing is capable of sustaining a 1/2 lag bolt without being compromised.
Hi
The main frame should NEVER EVER be designed to rely on the skin or anything else of the trailer for strength. You will NEVER EVER find a lowboy or highboy hauling heavy equipment that depends on the wooden planking for part of the strength of the trailer.
Build a frame strong enough in the first place.
Thanks for listening!
I totally agree. Paraphrasing Matthew 7:24-27, only a fools builds his house on sand. As far as I'm concerned, Lippert sucks. I will not buy a trailer with a frame made by Lippert. A few of the smaller manufacturers make their own frames. I would like to see Jared check with them to see if frame flex is an issue.
Lag bolts you got to be kidding me
I have this exact 5th wheel. I'm not happy that I have to do this kind of maintenance on our 4 year old trailer.
Jared, will post the answer to many who question why only 2 lag screws instead of 5?. The missing 3 lag screws on each side seems to be a gross oversight which more than likely would lead to excessive flexing and eventually frame failure.
I too am questioning the use of lag screws into alum box tubing stuffed with wood 2x2's. It seems when the larger trailers with drop frames and massive storage became the "perfect storm" to create the failing frames. I too want to see a better attachment method to build a stronger combined structure that will handle the heavier weights and loading conditions experienced in the larger 5th wheels.
All in all an excellent video!
As an auto Tech [Retired] I watched manufacturers ''skimp'' on fastners in the past...and most of the time it came back to bite us in the keester! Now, as an RV owner, I see this all the time! After problems with our first rig, I now go front to back looking for these issues and others. Iwould have done the exact same thing you did with the lag's...sure would be great if they could take the time to weld nut bungs into the frame or frame plates, like you said, lags into wood in such a critical area is questionable! great job Jared!
Thanks! The skimping is sad to see.
I agree that if you have 5 holes, there should be 5 lag bolts. To me though, whether is 3/8 or 1/2 inch lags, there is less than an inch or so in the wood. Wood, bouncing down the road, seems to me it would lose a little "bite" over time. They should switch to bolts with red LocTite that go into a type nyloc nut that won't loosen up. The RV is only as strong as its weakest link and this looks like a poor way to attach walls on something that encounters "earthquakes" on every travel day! The RV industry is at a tipping point and the first one to figure it out and massively advertise their benefits and quality will be the big winner.
Every time I see people talking about converting their 5th wheel to a gooseneck I cringe. I suspect many of them fail due to the change in how force is applied to the frame. We're gonna see similar issues from diesel owners who think deleting their DEF systems is a good idea, too.
I have a 37’ Jayco with gen y gooseneck system being pulled by a deleted Chevrolet 3500 (330,000km) of deleted life best thing i ever did
@@Mattcandy123 Best of luck to you.
Put them in your fith wheel plate and see what happens. There's a reason you used nuts and bolts 😅😅
Would lock washers under lag bolt head(s) help maintain tension on bolt(s) and prevent them from backing out?