I think Super was also missing the blood/brutality of Z. Things like Dr. Gero's hand through Yamcha, Frieza impaling Krillin, and Buu blowing up Smitty from the inside out. I miss that stuff.
sound effects definitely had a hand in it for me. Z just had the best punching sounds and aura effects like seriously gohans ssj2 lightning sound is iconic.
To me what was missing was the fact that DBS doesn’t feel like one grand continuous story. It feels like stuff is just happening without much development or a clear end goal
I agree. In Z you had Vegeta and Frieza play as important characters to Goku’s origins. Celll being a product of the remnants from RR I think was creative too.Buu was kind of just thrown in there though I think that the next arc revolving around Black Frieza could be really interesting though.
almost every fight that was dragged out in DBS was very inconsistent with the animation and movements of the characters while in DBZ every long fight was consistent and making you want more
I really don’t want 5 minute transformation scenes if we get one episode a week. As much as people complain about super, if they start making dragged out transformations again then people will just complain about that. You can’t please the Dragon Ball fandom with anytning but I think more people would complain about not being able to see a lot in an episode then they would about fast transitions.
In Z, they didn’t always rely on Goku. I know the garlic jr is filler, but it demonstrated how Gohan, Piccolo and Krillin has to learn to handle situations without Goku. In Super, they rely too much on Goku and Vegeta so Super Hero is a breath of fresh air.
Yeah it was even worse in GT as the Z fighters were just batteries for Goku and his power, I'm glad they did something with Gohan and Piccolo in Super though.
That may be true however but most of the remaining Z-Fighters have their own lives to live and they felt like they can't do anything to help Goku and Vegeta. Piccolo (before he got a new form) felt like he might get in the way, Krillin retired from fighting, Tien has his own dojo, Yamcha let his fear get in the way, and Gohan has a family to take care of even though he should be training and studying at the same time. Goten and Trunks are next in line to be Earth's defense but you can blame their mothers for not allowing them to tag along with Goku and Vegeta
@@tatsuostatic8567 They aren't real though so that's not a good excuse imo toriyama just doesnt know what to do with them hence why he writes them that way.
I have something to add...you are completely right Geekdom, I will add that Goku has major character DEGRESSION. It was made painfully clear in super hero when Goku showed his lack of knowledge of meditation. Goku is a martial arts master. He is a master of body, mind, and soul he had such a huge understanding of the body and spirit. He proved this time and time again in Z, but they have made him out to be a fool in super. Another thing is music, super has way too much music at times when there should be none, where the silence should heighten the suspense. That's all I got awesome video I hope the old Z returns one day.
I feel like the art style has a lot to do with how people feel about super. Z just had something special about it, and I don’t think it’s just nostalgia because it still holds up. The anime from that time just hit different. The shading and tones of color used was just better over all in my opinion. Everything seems more vibrant now, which makes it look more cartoony. I don’t know if it’s just me, but I feel like super went back to a more traditional “silly” type story, where as almost all of Z was gritty and overall more serious in tone.
Yamamuro worked on the series since the OG DB, his style just changed. the reason people say characters look "plastic" and shiny is because of him. don't diss him too much tho, his work on the Buu Saga was phenomenal
Its mostly because of how static the animations are. DBZ had way more attention to detail in choreography with an added bonus of 60fps fights and personal moments (like Cell rapidly punching Gokus face with one hand, or Goku fooling Frieza with a bait Kamehe wave) DBS just overuses the same 3 clashing frames at 60fps and when they aren't, the fights seem so much slower with ZERO weight to each attack. Too many freeze frames of screaming and/or charging, interrupted talk, little demonstration of REAL power feats in the fights, and zero personality in the fights. Naotoshi Shida is legit the saving grace of DBS right now. Hes the guy who did the epic Jiren vs UI/MUI Goku fight.
Toriyama's Storyboard-like panels were really unique, each fight flow so well and that something Super (and even GT) lacked. It can't be that hard to replicate.
Not sure if this video was made before Super Hero, but that movie was pretty much dedicated to side characters and did a great job utilizing them IMO. I’m referring to your #2 point of course. Hopefully we see more of that in the future.
The thing about DBZ is everything made more sense. The fights were so realistic, showed more emotions, the right words where always said before, during and after a fight, the villains had more better principles. DBS is too pg13 and it’s been hurting.
Exactly way more asspulls and inconsistent plot lines. Making characters stronger just because. Or that fact one character could do something that the other character couldn't but that character is suppose to be stronger. And I makes it worse cause fan base just accepts it or makes excuses for it so I don't see super getting better or changing cause the fans will accept it no matter how much sense it doesn't make
I am glad you mentioned the sound affects from z and super because in z when 2 people are punching each other it sounds really fast but in super it just doesn’t sound like they are punching And when I am blind I rely on those sound affects to know what is happening. Also I noticed in z the music keeps repeating itself and when I like a song I am glad the show keeps playing that song at a certain moment.
I actually agree with all of these points. The fighting actually felt like fights unlike Super with vegeta throwing the same jab at beerus unmoved finger lol. I get beerus supposed to be OP but at least let him move his finger to his gut or something as vegeta attempt to hit other areas..... The other thing is in Z you actually felt the POWER behind punches & ki blasts with Uber dramatic screen shaking & characters looking like they launched their very souls through their ki blasts.
I agree there is a lack of tension at least compared to early Z you really felt that fights had higher stakes and you were on the edge of your seat waiting to see who won the fight especially the goku vs vegeta and maybe also the z fighters vs frieza fights there was something magical about them that we never really got again
Also missing in Super: 1. Goku was a leader when it was time to be and less of a clown (Yes, in Z he was making jokes but still had respect from others). 2. Gohan wasn't a weakling, he had brave moments (he didn't call his dad like a baby when he was in danger. He was more alpha). 3. Hard work or danger before gaining higher power levels. 4. A sense of no way out, e.g Frieza or Cell were too strong which gave a sense of no hope of winning. 5. A surprise turn of event, e.g referring to point 4, Goku became a Super Saiyan and Gohan achieved Super Saiyan 2, which gave hope of victory. 6. Every strategy and transformation has a sense of importance. You could feel sh*@t is about to go down. 7. Vegeta was more of a rival and dangerous in Z than in Super. You never know when he's gonna flip, which gave a mysterious suspense to Vegeta. 8. Power levels made sense. Basically Super needs to give some respect to the main characters like in Z.
The Sound Effects in Z were music to my ears, especially the Beam Sounds. I just didn't have that same feeling listening to Super's until I saw the Broly movie.
This is going to be a blend of different factors you mentioned, but said a different way: The biggest difference to me was two-fold: 1. DBS mostly lacked tension, whereas DBZ had it in spades. The pacing played into that. I grew up on and loved the Faulconer score and that definitely played into that for me. The lack of consequences played into that (which wasn’t because of ending of Z , for me, but death never really meant much because of the abuse of the dragonballs). There were moments where you felt the stakes (Goku Black arc and some of ToP), but they mostly failed to make to consequences truly feel dire without cheaping out on the conclusion (Zeno destroying FT’s timeline). To get a sense of how the tension was undercut, just listen to how Bulma reacts to just about any situation. I know shems often comedic relief, but often people resort to comedy when they don’t know how to deal with heavy emotions/scenarios. Death was something significant through the Cell arc of DBZ and although the Buu arc started to lose that a little, the stakes were still high. The lack of tension therefore didn’t lead to a significant payoff when transforming in DBS (like it did with SS1 and SS2) or a feeling of satisfaction when adversity was overcome. It often felt like “things are just happening.” 2. DBZ had multiple through lines of character development that spanned across different arcs (Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo and even Krillin). DBS lacked long-term character development and played too much on nostalgia to make it’s story points resonate. You could maybe say Frieza had some development, but that was only in spots. Goku and Vegeta grew their power and learned some new techniques, but they didn’t grow much as people.
My dad is 75 and he still enjoys watching cartoons with me. I was in town showing my buddy/tattoo artist Gons transformation in HxH and it was further from when he fell off (greed island arc) and the next week when I went to go visit he was already in the chimera ant arc and we sat down and watched a few and DANG that pacing is so damn good the cliffhangers to the episodes are phenomenal
I think that many issues come from the idea that in super, Goku has been portrayed as really unintelligent. In dragon ball, dragon ball Z, and even dragon ball GT, he was portrayed as being more naïve. There’s a very subtle difference, but. Naïveté tends to be more well-meaning.
You hit the nail on the head! I had this same conversation with my cousin and we both agreed Goku was dumbed down. He was naive, but never stupid until Super.
The thing about OG Dragonball & Japan's Dragonball Z working so well, is that they've felt unique to a certain situation. The prime example is Piccolo. He has his own theme song, but it switches up depending on the mood he's in. When he's feeling triumphant, the music picks up. When he died against Nappa, the music sounded sadder. It's cool stuff like this that made the series more engaging to watch, as I got older. The rest is just more simple stuff. The animations were too hit or miss. The you don't really feel the impact of the attacks until later in Super's run. (Ex: God that blow to the gut Frieza took from GOD Toppo. I miss that.) Pacing is too wacky. Yadda yadda yadda. I hope when the anime comes back, they improve a lot of these aspects. You right about Toei & Toyotaro having to go off Toriyama's lazy boy notes. Anyone can make a fight look cool, but only the creator knows how to put it together.
A very important aspect to me that didn't get mentioned because of how easily it could be overlooked is the narrator at the end of the episode, I couldn't tell you how many times I've rewatched the "Final Atonements" Episode with Majin Vegeta and at the very end where he goes "His name was Vegeta, a proud Saiyan Prince" and EVERYTIME it gives me chills. Brice Armstrong is/was my favorite outro narrator, unfortunately DBS lacks in that department, Kyle Henry Hebert is fantastic at what he does but pales in comparison.
THANK YOU for referencing the ORIGINAL Sound efx of the series. Its a point that most people don't mention as its always about the visuals ( i also care about that) but the SFX it gave the identity of the series. You could only play thoses and right away tell where it comes from. That much tell you how iconic thoses are. But what i dont understand is : the guy isn't doing thoses for Super but it does for the video games?
DB was the best imo. Doesn't get enough love. Back when martial arts mattered more and wasn't just kick punch punch kick teleport kick punch punch kick teleport. Back when it felt like Goku was having an adventure. Back when he was a lot more dumb and the series overall was less serious and more comedic. It's the closest manga to One Piece is imo. It's clear as day that it's what Oda got most his inspiration from.
@@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD just because the majority were introduced from Z/Kai doesn't mean it's better. There are many hidden gems in almost every media and some of them are better than the more popular ones. Z gained most of its popularity from kids and young teens who grew up with the dub on TV, and also because of the massive power gap in Z compared to most other anime characters hence why the meme "But can he beat Goku tho?" is a thing. It's one of the few anime where they make it obvious that characters are able to destroy planets with little effort. In DB, characters aren't capable of such a feat except maybe King Piccolo and Master Roshi. Goku thought he was an ordinary human being. Personally I think it's more interesting because of this, though. Due to him thinking he's on the same level as a human is why we were able to get cool adventurous stories. It's why I like One Piece manga, it doesn't suffer from pacing issues like the anime does since Toei Animation has no involvement and Luffy is equally as dumb as kid Goku or if not dumber. Pre-time skip is also less serious and more comedy like DB. It's where Oda got his inspiration from.
I grew up with Faulconer score and the toonami run. Even as I got older and watched sub, dubbed, toonami, Kai etc. The best score for me is Faulconer. My biggest thing with Super is the overall vibe. There is something lost about the textures and vibe that Z had. Hard to explain...but it's like watching Alien compared to Alien Covenant. There is this weird vibe you get from the original that can't be replaced.
@@secoTheSonicFan super had such a sick sound. And I disagree with most; I think the beginning of super was strong with music. Like when Goku became a God, the Frieza music, it was all super sick.
Maybe you could add like consequences, martial arts, giving other people a meaningful win than having Goku win, and exploring the lore. I did felt Super is lacking heavily
@@Dave-gk6si Ask any real fan of dragon ball and they will tell you. Even toriyama stated his favorite character was piccolo. Dont even he doesnt even lead anything anymore. Hes kind of just there.
@@Xero-rr2ol He said his favorite was Hercule he only said Piccolo before Hercule was ever around. Didn’t stop him from making Piccolo look like a fool.
If you ask me, the one main thing that OG DB and DBZ had that Super is missing is a sense of mystery and discovery about the world that the saga was illustrating. In all the old arcs there was always a left field reveal that makes us wonder what will happen to the main cast and how they can overcome it. From just seeing the world for the first time, to facing an army, to confronting demons, to space invaders, to galactic overlords, and to menaces from the future there were always new stakes that raised the bar and left uncertainty in the viewer's mind. The Buu saga was the one classic saga that didn't quite raise that mystery well enough in the beginning to make it as iconic as the ones before it, but even it also spent time showing the viewers how the cast were attempting to overcome the problems in their way, which is the other part of the problem Super has. Aside from the viewer basically always knowing what to expect in subsequent chapters of Super it relies too much on dropping solutions on problems rather than explaining how characters came to that solution. Show, don't tell, is a universal storytelling guideline and far too many forms and plot twists just appear from literally nowhere or are explained with backstage "secret training" that conveniently happens with no context for why it was done before the moment that it was arbitrarily needed. The Goku Black was probably the best attempt in Super to capture the essence of old formula, and even it falls victim to these shortcomings on more than one occasion. If Super really wants to recapture the feelings of OG DB and DBZ it needs to embrace the unknown that can't be solved with simply a new form or just hit the new baddie really hard, but instead force the cast to take a step back, think about what they're doing, and don't tell us everything about the villain right off the bat. Keep the viewers guessing about what will happen next, and Super might be able to live up to legacy of what came before it.
What Super missed for me was the consistency. You have Tien shitting his pants for a small sparring session and devaluing the character. Tien had so much more balls when he was willing to hold off Cell. You have certain characters regressing when they had so much development. Vegeta's development, atonement and acceptance during the Buu Saga was phenomenal writing. Also, you don't need Goku to show you're strong. In Super, everyone had to fight blue Goku to show they are strong even Krillin and devalue the transformation which I thought was like a legendary new form but now it's overused. Also, there's the kid in me. The impact of the fights are way less than in z. In Z, you would feel the impact from punches and see mountains and planets shattering. Show off the power. Don't be afraid. Give us those feats.
I think Sumitonos score really fits Super and Broly imo, but what I 100% agree with you on is the sound effects I don't know why they don't re-use the original anime's sound effects, but they use them for One Piece now which is a shame. Maybe Toei don't want two of their ongoing anime to use the same sound effects I find that a shame because DBZ sound effects would definitely sound better in super than One Piece. They make One Piece fights sound bigger than they are
I think the biggest problem with DBS is the power scaling if the people are strong side characters get boosted beyond what they should be able to do In Z when the people were too strong the others couldn’t do anything to them especially after friza but even though they couldn’t do anything in a fight they were still apart of the plot.
I think music wise they can make a remixed version of the classic music from both the original Japanese music as well as what the Falconer productions brought abroad to the international audiences.
@@diansc7322 Except in DVD releases where both scores would have been in options if I recall. You wanna bash me for not knowing what other countries had with their dubs? Why reply?
1) Lack of blood 2) Lack of suspense. You knew the Z-Fighters were going to make it out alive. 3) Access to the gods. Having Zeno in your pocket takes away a lot. 4) Power scaling was too ridiculous. The power ups felt rushed and took away from all the training they did.
I hope that when/if Super returns that they buff the other Z fighters like they did with Piccolo in Superhero. I mean, I don't need them to be just as strong as Goku and Vegeta, but it's be nice if they at least became strong enough to take on the villains again.
@@Dave-gk6si My idea of... getting the other Z fighters somewhere close to the power levels Goku and Vegeta? I never even said it had to via a transformation...
@@Dave-gk6si Since you brought up Superhero I thought you assumed I meat giving them a transformation like what happened with Piccolo and Gohan. Otherwise I don't see any reason to be against giving the other Z fighters a step up.
I miss the art style of the Buu saga 😢 😔 it just hits different. So much attention to detail. Super doesn't have that. I can see it with the Jiren vs Vegeta. Gohan vs Dispo but it's not common smh
The reason why the DBS anime failed with its story & plot was because Toei put the series into quick production which explains why they ended up re-telling Battle of Gods & Resurrection F.
One thing we’re definitely missing is a serious goku that understands the danger of a situation It’s so annoying when he’s facing an earth threatening threat and you just see him smiling and stuff. I get it’s apart of who he is but if the main character isn’t gonna take anything seriously than why should we?
Yrah, but that's a Goku trait. That's been there since the OG on top of Goku's overconfidence (that he has been called out for in the Resurrection F movie) giving him a flaw other than just his general naive nature. Plus it makes the cases when he is serious stand out more. Especially since in Super, he got a get out of jail free card with Whis and Zeno, so ots more a case of him having reasons to be carefree than him actually being it
Before i even watch it im gonna guess its stakes, with their being a further point in time where everything is okay and everyone is still alive (z's ending) it takes almost all the tension out when a character we know is alive down the road is in danger. The focus ends up being more on how their gonna survive instead of if they will. It only feels normal with new characters or characters who's fates were previously unknown like future trunks. If we just go past z's ending the future will be unknown and alot more interesting again.
I totally agree with all you said. I was expecting to mention censorship too. Blood and wounds are very important to make you feel that the character's life is on the line.
I don't think super taking place between buu arc and end of z means anything. They could always just decide to retcon it and come up with a new ending; in fact I think it's likely that they will. (or that they'll retcon certain aspects of it regarding which characters show up)
I think blood definetely deserves a mention. I remember in original dragon ball when piccolo ripped his own arm off or in z how goku and raditz got pierced by piccolo or even how frieza got literally cut in half. We don't see this kind of stuff in super all we see in super are ripped clothes and small cuts
Reason number one is also my top reason. I once had aspirations in fight choreography and I sorely missed that DBZ fight sequencing in DBS. The closest we got to that were fights involving Hit, IMO
Eventhough the T.O.P. in Super is one of my fav arcs and when Goku starts to tap into U.I. was epic, it doesnt have as much of the struggle is real as much as DBZ did. Also, as you said most if not all the characters were involved making it a more well rounded story over DB Super. Having the Spirit Bomb as a last ditch effort seemed more powerful storywise in DBZ then alot of things in DB Super, and I agree slow it down.
Z is the pinnacle of db super don't have blod arm cuts kills sacrifices is childish goku looks to skinny tien looks to skinny killing all vegeta story telling yoy ned watch 100 eps in super to reach something ah let's say God power calling is very bad in super androids where at picolo level when he fused with kami is to much wrongs in super dbz is nice from the 1st episode is amazing super ists not only broly movie was nicely made with graphics as z
Another thing was that it was very very dark and a lot more brutal than people give it credit for. It was by no means a Death Note type of thing but for a shonen it really knew how to make you think. It also was damn good at humbling the characters. A lot of people were pissed about Majin Vegeta's sacrifice meaning nothing, but for me it added an extra bit of terror because Buu was really that powerful.
1 word TENSION no villain really felt like they could kill an important character. The main characters have too much help from other really strong characters.
Super needed a bit longer fights sometimes, although I understand why they didn't from backlash they probably got from fights such as Goku vs frieza Goku vs cell Goku vs Kid Buu All these fights were 3 episodes plus. Super really lacked the stakes, and relied too much on nostalgic moments. They have to get out of this Era before the end of Z it hurts the story. We know everyone will survive because they HAVE to they were all st the end of Z so they have to survive where encounter they're in. Once Super gets out if this Era and past the end of Z then I believe Super will be A LOT better
The reason you don't get that feeling anymore is because you AREN'T A KID! My 8 and 5 year Olds LOVE super. And I'm sure they have that feeling you miss. You aren't a child
Goku was better written in Z versus Super. In Z Goku was simple but not a complete moron nor immature. You could sort of believe that he was a martial art prodigy. In super - Goku was the weakest characters. Even though they (writers) wrote the storylines to give him SSG, SSB, SSBK, UI, MUI, and TUI - to me that maybe writer’s favoritism. In Z, I hated Vegeta, but at least in Super, Vegeta was a better character. You start rooting for him. Didn’t like Gohan in Super until tournament of power.
i loved it in z when the fights had you worried that a character might die that goku might lose and keep you invested in the story, i don't think super has it it always felt like you knew the outcome
So hilariously I remember when I was 17 watching Dragon Ball Z air on Toonami. I believe I was in the Cell Saga in any case I was just recently graduated from high school and in Las Vegas immediately after on a summer break. The year was 2002 the Stratosphere had opened and becoming one of the more popular attractions there was rides at the top and I really wanted to check them out. While I was out for the afternoon with my mother who lived in Vegas, (I had graduated high school from Florida) she took me to the stratosphere and promised me to take me to the top for the rides. As we are pulling up I literally looked at the clock and it was like 4:30. I just completely out of nowhere panicked because I could not believe it was almost 5:00 p.m. local Air Time which was when DBZ would come on back in those days. 30 minutes was exactly how far the stratosphere was from our house and I had her step on it and she could not believe that I was turning down a complete experience for a 30-minute episode of cartoons! 17 years old I mean give me a break I should have been all over that Stratosphere ride but you know what Dragon Ball Z was still one of the most passionate things on TV I was so hooked on it. To this day I still have not ridden those rides and I can't tell you how many times I have seen the entire Cell saga!
For me there's a few things that would really capture the original feel again. I'm not too hopeful about music or sound effects returning anymore even though that helps greatly. The things I would expect to happen for it to be GOOD (personally) are (ESSAY WARNING): 1. A story with continuity and consequences carrying over, drop this whole villian of the arc thing they got going. The series needs proper direction. Because DB is more corprate now, they seem to have a meeting to discuss ideas for the next arc and thats it, they dont think beyond it. The result is a directionless series made for money that lacks in quality compared to its predecessor, with things like UI having to constantly be retconned and changed into oblivion. 2. Stakes, as Geekdom said, they gotta push past Z by now. Also find ways to either threaten beerus/whis or write them out in an actual clever way, not when he's about to hakai the main villian he gets a phone call. Thats just stupid, he could have hakai'd and left in a few seconds. You can't tell me those would have caused his death if he didn't go instantly. 3. Continuing the "bigger" plotline. I feel like we've been stuck in limbo for a while now. We wanna see actual considerable power leaps and threats to the angels or the grand priest, something that really shocks us and makes the situation feel hopeless again (Black Frieza was pretty good). 4. Better battle choreography. Super (minus the last couple of episodes) didn't land the mark for me. Especially not compared to Z. Z's fights were so much more creative and interesting and felt like they had strategy. Super went too hard on the flashy aspect in my opinion and even that can't be considered a full success. 5. Better use of side charectars, as Geekdom said. Just because they cant fight the main villian doesn't mean they can't be useful. Look at krillin in the cell saga as an example. And don't just create filler enemies for them to fight, that means nothing. I want to see actual growth and struggle that makes sense and contributes to the ending of the arc. Don't just make it seem emotional for the sake of it. 6.Better established power scales. Right now, we have no idea who's stronger than who if i'm being honest. Its like they avoid/retcon these in universe discussions on purpose. Can UI Goku beat Beerus? In the past, now apparently not. Was Jiren more powerful? Infinitely, but now he's supposedly weaker. How far up the scale is Blue anyway compared to the others? What about Gohan and Piccolo? Would a hypothetical fusion be as strong as Whis? Is Black Frieza even stronger? No clue, at least from watching. Instead we have to spend hours trying to dissect promotional statements made to hype up a movie (which is fun in its own right). 7. Explore the current plot threads rather than making up new ones all the time. We have so many left dangling and its like they're choosing not to connect the series to make it whole. Universe 6 Sadala, the 4 Universes that didn't participate, the 6 universes Zen Oh killed before, trainee angels, a threat to Zen-Oh, Demon Realm (Even if its hero's thing), Zalama and more on the super dragonballs, just to name a few.
Wish this video was longer with a bigger list. For me the stakes aren’t big enough, the dragon balls all need to be destroyed and then it’ll be stressful to watch. That’s why the frieza saga was so good. Need more blood and violence back, bigger muscles like in Z. It would be awesome to see one of the side characters show up to a fight to help and not get trashed but someone surpass there own limits and do something special. Also they need to explore more things and places. We need more techniques, more hand and ground combat and maybe just some more mystery thrown in to keep us wondering
You're missing a HUGE element that both Ball and Z had, but Super didn't. It's the villains. DBS had basically one villain. Zamasu. The rest were just an opponent or antagonist, which aren't necessarily villains.
I hate what they did with Goku, if we compare the Goku from the cell saga vs the super one they make him look dumber and more immature than he really is, I think it has been a regression to the character
Pacing is the number one thing. ToP is 55 episodes. The ENTIRETY of GT is 64. All of Nameck was 68 and the issues are well known there. For comparison: All of Gundam Wing is 49 episodes. Cowboy Bebop is just 26. I have no idea what they were thinking in the writer's or director's room, but just absolutely horrible decisions were made there. People don't want however many episodes dedicated to Ribrianne as they reuse animation of Heles over and over.
💯 percent facts,I agree with all of it you took the words right out of my mouth and I know Super Hero was an attempt to utilize character's like Gohan and Piccolo more but it needs to happen way more especially with these two!
I agree with all your list, my add ons would be fixing the power scaling so its not like every arc is a new color pallet form or just always someone stronger than Goku and Vegeta every arc idk how to explain but it just feels like the power scaling is just weird now, so fixing it would be good. And adding blood would be nice, I know they cant add too much blood anymore on the anime but it'll be nice to see some blood once and awhile to give that nostalgic feeling like good old times but other than that all your points I agree
Supers issues is that it does what the boo saga was hated for. It sidelines everyone whos not goku and vegeta while butchering characterizations and leaving everyone useless. Not the mention repeating Vegeta amd gohans character arcs from older arcs in z
Think you've nailed it with the pacing, even the way it's filled out, silly things like roshi and others watching the fights with baba or dende in the lookout with popo, it just isolates so many of the original characters 🤔
As a DBZ fan I have never watched any DBS. The newer movies really intrigue me but a co worker of mine who has seen all of the Super series said too watch that before the movies. I am so conflicted on all I have read about Super. Is it that corny and aimed at a younger crowd to the point it's cringy to watch? Just trying to decide what I wanna do. Wanna watch the movies but will not know what it going on in the movies if I have never seen any of DBS. If I decide on watching Super I'd like to watch them on Blu-ray on my 4k tv but the full Blu-ray set is over $200 and higher if brand new. Ugh decisions decisions. Any suggestions?
The new Z-Fighters should be outside of Goku and Vegeta are: - Gohan - Goten - Trunks - Pan - Piccolo - Krillin - 18 - 17 - Broly Honorary Members: - Gamma 1 - Granola - Cabba - Caulifla - Kale The Team has more than enough ppl to tell compelling stories with without having to only use Goku and Vegeta.
Well dbs had nothing serious. Just short fights with Beerus and Frieza followed by an okayish black goku arc and then universe 6 stretch. ToP was great to watch and does deserve appreciation. However none of them except ToP seemed as brutal or desperate as dbz was. Though I would say that Moro and granola arc would be 1000 times better. Moro arc would be the best as it has all the brutality, desperation, skill, plot, teamwork etc in it. Granola arc was just goku and vegeta fight. If super continues, Moro arc might pass even the cell arc. We gotta see.
Honestly Toriyama's editors are a big part of it too. A lot of the more interesting aspects and shocking developments of DB we're forced on him by his editors. Now there's nobody there to kinda reign him in. Too many yes men.
Reason I think its about time super goes after Z already is one, basically a lot is happening and characters seem to be all powered up but still do not grow old. And also yes, Goku is suppose to be much more powerfull at the end of Z, but the way its going it will be so damn OP, and Uub should like be kicked out with just a punch since he should be the "same" level as majin buu
Huge fan of the Faulkner score (and even nostalgic for the music from the syndicated run, for that matter), and I agree on the music. Outside of Broly and the opening themes, Super has little that's all that memorable in terms of high energy music for a big climactic moment. Certainly nothing in the way of Super Saiyan 3 Ascension, or Super Buu's theme.
2:30 I know music preferences can be nostalgic based but I don’t think it’s fair to just blame nostalgia for why people like one score over another. For instance I grew up with Falconer’s score and like it more but that doesn’t change the fact that the Japanese version of Gohan going SSJ2 in MY OPINION is better than the Falconer version. Basically what I’m saying is, it’s nuanced
What made Dbz and DB better than DBS is that the side characters got their spotlight and there was a sense of adventure with the original DB. In addition fights were more technique and relied more on abilities and techniques than just pure power.
for me the biggest flaw super had was the audience target. back then it was for early teens, so there were some instances with bloody moments and shocking death scenes, plus the big explosives had impacts. Super is for little kids so all those gone. Zamasu? erased. Really heavy hits? stretch the body and a little more spit. The assassins from hit? a corruption in the heart place. Even the kills were banned in t.o.p., not to mention that it took place in a void dimension, while the only "killing" was the erase of the loser universe, like it was a mark on chart and zenoes were the erasers.
Dbs doesnt even feel like its toriyamas show. Ever since they created this God hierarchy it seems like Goku and vegeta are just moving way too fast. Like goku is so perfect easily achieving and mastering a form, that they re nerfed him in moro and came up with a new way to improve an already mastered form, then in the next arc they retcon how ui works and now this new ui form that goku just creates is somehow better than the ones the angels use. So the pacing and the overuse of transformations just make this show unbearable at times. We had ssg ssjb, Trunks random transformation that somehow put him on blue level(looked like it was even stronger than blue)ssj Rose, ssb kaioken, evolution blue, ui omen 1, omen 2, Mastered ui, "True ui"(which is the dumbest thing ever), and ultra ego. THATS 10 TRANSFORMATIONS!!! They seem to forgot how to make a good story without relying on multiple random transformations.
For me, the one thing Z has over Super was the awesome dub changes! Superhero Goku is so awesome and I do miss him a lot! Lol, I half joke, of course. I say half joke cuz I really do prefer the old dub over everything, though I recognize that the dub changes were incredibly wrong from a moral standpoint and the original version is vastly superior from a writing standpoint. Anyway, one thing I genuinely do think original DB, DBZ, and even DBGT had over Super was a *soul.* I don’t know how to explain it really, but when I watch Super, while it is entertaining, it feels like it’s just going through the motions and trying to stay relevant. It feels kinda soulless to me. The original three series just have this very strong and vibrant spirit and charm that sweeps me off my feet somehow.
I'll never forget watching Tien hold Cell back with his blasts. I was so impressed with him and loved his character at that point. Then he just got nerfed and became a nobody. Same goes for Piccolo in the Frieza saga being really strong.
Controversial Take: Dragon Ball Super SuperHero is the saving grace of Dragon Ball Super. Super Hero had a Z like feel to bc everyone was involved. Similar to why some many ppl like the anime ToP. If that movie didn’t have Goku and Vegeta sidelined, Dragon Ball wouldn’t have had a groundbreaking year it had this year. Right now the MVPs of Dragon Ball are Gohan and Frieza. The moment we got to see something fresh with character other than Goku and Vegeta, everybody was excited for new Dragon Ball content. Having the series only revolve around Goku and Vegeta is now tiring and frustrating for fans bc the rest of the characters deserve some shine. The fans grew up with the story revolving around a wide range of characters not just Goku and Vegeta. When Dragon Ball comes back, Toriyama, Toyotaro and the creative team need to go back to the roots of Dragon Ball and make Super Part 2 the adventures of Goku and his friends.
I think it will always on Goku and Vegeta cause they are main characters you see it on Moro Arc and Granolah the wasted character potential is Gotenks getting older without fighting im expecting him use ghost attack or something new
Too me when I was younger the original taught me that training and putting in the work yielded good results🤷♂️, now if I want to get stronger like they do in super I just need to dye my hair apparently🤦♂️😂😂
More like "what Super is missing" I'm sorry, but the majority of transformations lack zero purpose and feel tacked on, and the story lacks a lot of tangible stakes beyond just "the universe/Earth will be destroyed". And by that, I mean "there isn't very many stakes for Goku and Vegeta." Its why Super Hero received as much praise as it did despite still having that transformation issue. Like, more than anything: we want to see some semblance of the Z Warriors again and we want for the story to matter to our main characters. Like, aside from the last arc's tie in with Bardock's story and Goku discovering that, not much else exactly happened during the Granolah Arc to forward either character's story beyond just "Vegeta is embracing his pride" and "Goku is embracing his emotions". Neither of those exactly hold a candle to Vegeta trying to atone for his sins during the Moro Arc, something which DBS before that arc hadn't really had the balls to try and attempt. That's honestly up there with the whole Majin Vegeta stuff in the Buu Saga when it comes to Vegeta's character.
The anime taking a break and letting toyotarou continue the manga might give us hope yet for your number 1 point. Moro and Granola arcs should result in some awesome animation and fights.
You missed the most important point: The biggest problem with super is the power creep. In DBZ the characters had to suffer beyond belief to push themselves into the next level. Blood, sweat and tears to get there, and for that reason it felt awesome to see them get there. In super, they just snap their fingers and there goes another level. Not a lot of effort involved, not to mention the rainbow of new colors that makes it look more like a child's cartoon.
really spot on with your points I agree with 5 and 1 the most I really like DBZ ep. 81 when piccolo fights Frieza 2nd form immediately after the mid-way cut love that brief sequence with the OG Japanese score.
The biggest thing for me was that z definitely had a more mature feeling. And super really needs this when it comes back.
Agreed. Needs more seriousness and brutality. Hopefully black Freiza provides us that.
@@kRzlamchop for sure.
This. No silly Goku anymore.
@@fosho332 yes dude make goku a badass like bardock . I know that’s never really been his character but sometimes you gotta change it up.
Right. Super is too lighthearted. The art style is bright and kiddish and Goku personality wise is a joke.
I think Super was also missing the blood/brutality of Z. Things like Dr. Gero's hand through Yamcha, Frieza impaling Krillin, and Buu blowing up Smitty from the inside out. I miss that stuff.
Even th sayan saga was brutal napa vs z figters to much killz to much blod beter story dbz is amazing
You describe what a regular anime is
Who's Smitty?
@@DiamondBlade11 I believe that’s his name but he was the dude super buu blew up from the inside out
sound effects definitely had a hand in it for me. Z just had the best punching sounds and aura effects like seriously gohans ssj2 lightning sound is iconic.
On god!
To me what was missing was the fact that DBS doesn’t feel like one grand continuous story. It feels like stuff is just happening without much development or a clear end goal
Yeah that so true, we need a real story, that has character development a beginning and end. Like a Thanos kind of thing
I agree. In Z you had Vegeta and Frieza play as important characters to Goku’s origins. Celll being a product of the remnants from RR I think was creative too.Buu was kind of just thrown in there though
I think that the next arc revolving around Black Frieza could be really interesting though.
@@eliteboss818 but for some reason I think they ate going to under deliver with that arc.
They didn’t have a goal for super, that’s what they said
Because there literally is no clear end goal
Important thing about "dragged-out fights" is that with a 5-minute transformation, you really get and feel the importance of that transformation.
almost every fight that was dragged out in DBS was very inconsistent with the animation and movements of the characters while in DBZ every long fight was consistent and making you want more
But it did get old!
I really don’t want 5 minute transformation scenes if we get one episode a week. As much as people complain about super, if they start making dragged out transformations again then people will just complain about that. You can’t please the Dragon Ball fandom with anytning but I think more people would complain about not being able to see a lot in an episode then they would about fast transitions.
To me the pacing of the fights are akin to the staredowns in Westerns
@@freezacold7100 but thats just heroes. Everything is over as quick as it started
In Z, they didn’t always rely on Goku. I know the garlic jr is filler, but it demonstrated how Gohan, Piccolo and Krillin has to learn to handle situations without Goku. In Super, they rely too much on Goku and Vegeta so Super Hero is a breath of fresh air.
Kind of reminds me of Dragon Ball GT. When they focusing on too much on Goku and not focusing on other Dragon Ball characters.
Yeah it was even worse in GT as the Z fighters were just batteries for Goku and his power, I'm glad they did something with Gohan and Piccolo in Super though.
3:50 - DRAG-ON BALL Z 😂😂
That may be true however but most of the remaining Z-Fighters have their own lives to live and they felt like they can't do anything to help Goku and Vegeta. Piccolo (before he got a new form) felt like he might get in the way, Krillin retired from fighting, Tien has his own dojo, Yamcha let his fear get in the way, and Gohan has a family to take care of even though he should be training and studying at the same time. Goten and Trunks are next in line to be Earth's defense but you can blame their mothers for not allowing them to tag along with Goku and Vegeta
@@tatsuostatic8567 They aren't real though so that's not a good excuse imo toriyama just doesnt know what to do with them hence why he writes them that way.
I have something to add...you are completely right Geekdom, I will add that Goku has major character DEGRESSION. It was made painfully clear in super hero when Goku showed his lack of knowledge of meditation. Goku is a martial arts master. He is a master of body, mind, and soul he had such a huge understanding of the body and spirit. He proved this time and time again in Z, but they have made him out to be a fool in super. Another thing is music, super has way too much music at times when there should be none, where the silence should heighten the suspense. That's all I got awesome video I hope the old Z returns one day.
A comment I can get behind
So spot on with the Goku critique. He somehow became a worse fighter in Super and just forgot everything he learned in Z
I feel like the art style has a lot to do with how people feel about super. Z just had something special about it, and I don’t think it’s just nostalgia because it still holds up. The anime from that time just hit different. The shading and tones of color used was just better over all in my opinion. Everything seems more vibrant now, which makes it look more cartoony. I don’t know if it’s just me, but I feel like super went back to a more traditional “silly” type story, where as almost all of Z was gritty and overall more serious in tone.
Fully agree mate
Yamamuro worked on the series since the OG DB, his style just changed. the reason people say characters look "plastic" and shiny is because of him. don't diss him too much tho, his work on the Buu Saga was phenomenal
Z had more blood a gore it felt more realistic and serious
Its mostly because of how static the animations are.
DBZ had way more attention to detail in choreography with an added bonus of 60fps fights and personal moments (like Cell rapidly punching Gokus face with one hand, or Goku fooling Frieza with a bait Kamehe wave)
DBS just overuses the same 3 clashing frames at 60fps and when they aren't, the fights seem so much slower with ZERO weight to each attack. Too many freeze frames of screaming and/or charging, interrupted talk, little demonstration of REAL power feats in the fights, and zero personality in the fights.
Naotoshi Shida is legit the saving grace of DBS right now. Hes the guy who did the epic Jiren vs UI/MUI Goku fight.
@@bottomtext593i agree with everything you said Z feels like it had more care put into it
I always felt like a certain charm was missing from Super that prevented me from fully enjoying it
Toriyama's Storyboard-like panels were really unique, each fight flow so well and that something Super (and even GT) lacked. It can't be that hard to replicate.
I will never forget the sound effects and the original score plus the old art style the buff chest and arms when the character looked intimidating
Not sure if this video was made before Super Hero, but that movie was pretty much dedicated to side characters and did a great job utilizing them IMO. I’m referring to your #2 point of course. Hopefully we see more of that in the future.
That needs to be the norm for Super going forward.
@@jordanjones7686 I agree dawg
I think he’s referring to the anime only
All you baboons have no standards
@Urban Youth Spitting facts
The thing about DBZ is everything made more sense. The fights were so realistic, showed more emotions, the right words where always said before, during and after a fight, the villains had more better principles. DBS is too pg13 and it’s been hurting.
bro watch goku black arc
@@Jshn_tejay When vegeta got stabbed? There wasn’t any blood at all, bro was just lying there. GT did better than that 💀
@@monkeyboy317 you are just a hater if you don’t like dbsuper don’t watch it old man 👴 and dbsuper earn more money then you dbz
How is it more pg13 it had less blood and less cursing than z
Exactly way more asspulls and inconsistent plot lines. Making characters stronger just because. Or that fact one character could do something that the other character couldn't but that character is suppose to be stronger. And I makes it worse cause fan base just accepts it or makes excuses for it so I don't see super getting better or changing cause the fans will accept it no matter how much sense it doesn't make
I am glad you mentioned the sound affects from z and super because in z when 2 people are punching each other it sounds really fast but in super it just doesn’t sound like they are punching And when I am blind I rely on those sound affects to know what is happening. Also I noticed in z the music keeps repeating itself and when I like a song I am glad the show keeps playing that song at a certain moment.
Careful could be a scam.
I actually agree with all of these points. The fighting actually felt like fights unlike Super with vegeta throwing the same jab at beerus unmoved finger lol. I get beerus supposed to be OP but at least let him move his finger to his gut or something as vegeta attempt to hit other areas.....
The other thing is in Z you actually felt the POWER behind punches & ki blasts with Uber dramatic screen shaking & characters looking like they launched their very souls through their ki blasts.
The camera shake is a big one! It sold the impact.
I agree there is a lack of tension at least compared to early Z you really felt that fights had higher stakes and you were on the edge of your seat waiting to see who won the fight especially the goku vs vegeta and maybe also the z fighters vs frieza fights there was something magical about them that we never really got again
Also missing in Super:
1. Goku was a leader when it was time to be and less of a clown (Yes, in Z he was making jokes but still had respect from others).
2. Gohan wasn't a weakling, he had brave moments (he didn't call his dad like a baby when he was in danger. He was more alpha).
3. Hard work or danger before gaining higher power levels.
4. A sense of no way out, e.g Frieza or Cell were too strong which gave a sense of no hope of winning.
5. A surprise turn of event, e.g referring to point 4, Goku became a Super Saiyan and Gohan achieved Super Saiyan 2, which gave hope of victory.
6. Every strategy and transformation has a sense of importance. You could feel sh*@t is about to go down.
7. Vegeta was more of a rival and dangerous in Z than in Super. You never know when he's gonna flip, which gave a mysterious suspense to Vegeta.
8. Power levels made sense.
Basically Super needs to give some respect to the main characters like in Z.
Well said 💯💯💯
The Sound Effects in Z were music to my ears, especially the Beam Sounds. I just didn't have that same feeling listening to Super's until I saw the Broly movie.
The faulconer score is nostalgic, and it always gave me chills when the stare downs started
The dragon theme and spirit bomb theme
This is going to be a blend of different factors you mentioned, but said a different way:
The biggest difference to me was two-fold: 1. DBS mostly lacked tension, whereas DBZ had it in spades. The pacing played into that. I grew up on and loved the Faulconer score and that definitely played into that for me. The lack of consequences played into that (which wasn’t because of ending of Z , for me, but death never really meant much because of the abuse of the dragonballs). There were moments where you felt the stakes (Goku Black arc and some of ToP), but they mostly failed to make to consequences truly feel dire without cheaping out on the conclusion (Zeno destroying FT’s timeline). To get a sense of how the tension was undercut, just listen to how Bulma reacts to just about any situation. I know shems often comedic relief, but often people resort to comedy when they don’t know how to deal with heavy emotions/scenarios. Death was something significant through the Cell arc of DBZ and although the Buu arc started to lose that a little, the stakes were still high. The lack of tension therefore didn’t lead to a significant payoff when transforming in DBS (like it did with SS1 and SS2) or a feeling of satisfaction when adversity was overcome. It often felt like “things are just happening.”
2. DBZ had multiple through lines of character development that spanned across different arcs (Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo and even Krillin). DBS lacked long-term character development and played too much on nostalgia to make it’s story points resonate. You could maybe say Frieza had some development, but that was only in spots. Goku and Vegeta grew their power and learned some new techniques, but they didn’t grow much as people.
My dad is 75 and he still enjoys watching cartoons with me. I was in town showing my buddy/tattoo artist Gons transformation in HxH and it was further from when he fell off (greed island arc) and the next week when I went to go visit he was already in the chimera ant arc and we sat down and watched a few and DANG that pacing is so damn good the cliffhangers to the episodes are phenomenal
Man i'll never get over how shocked 2nd form cell was being held back by Tien hahaha. Greatest side character moment in dragon ball history.
I think that many issues come from the idea that in super, Goku has been portrayed as really unintelligent. In dragon ball, dragon ball Z, and even dragon ball GT, he was portrayed as being more naïve. There’s a very subtle difference, but. Naïveté tends to be more well-meaning.
You hit the nail on the head! I had this same conversation with my cousin and we both agreed Goku was dumbed down. He was naive, but never stupid until Super.
The thing about OG Dragonball & Japan's Dragonball Z working so well, is that they've felt unique to a certain situation. The prime example is Piccolo. He has his own theme song, but it switches up depending on the mood he's in. When he's feeling triumphant, the music picks up. When he died against Nappa, the music sounded sadder. It's cool stuff like this that made the series more engaging to watch, as I got older. The rest is just more simple stuff.
The animations were too hit or miss. The you don't really feel the impact of the attacks until later in Super's run. (Ex: God that blow to the gut Frieza took from GOD Toppo. I miss that.) Pacing is too wacky. Yadda yadda yadda. I hope when the anime comes back, they improve a lot of these aspects. You right about Toei & Toyotaro having to go off Toriyama's lazy boy notes. Anyone can make a fight look cool, but only the creator knows how to put it together.
A very important aspect to me that didn't get mentioned because of how easily it could be overlooked is the narrator at the end of the episode, I couldn't tell you how many times I've rewatched the "Final Atonements" Episode with Majin Vegeta and at the very end where he goes "His name was Vegeta, a proud Saiyan Prince" and EVERYTIME it gives me chills. Brice Armstrong is/was my favorite outro narrator, unfortunately DBS lacks in that department, Kyle Henry Hebert is fantastic at what he does but pales in comparison.
THANK YOU for referencing the ORIGINAL Sound efx of the series. Its a point that most people don't mention as its always about the visuals ( i also care about that) but the SFX it gave the identity of the series. You could only play thoses and right away tell where it comes from. That much tell you how iconic thoses are. But what i dont understand is : the guy isn't doing thoses for Super but it does for the video games?
The animation, how to end a arc, the earthlings, Z was DB's peak
Wdym animation? Dbs has better animation than any other dragonball, what you probably mean is art style
@@alexandrosandreou8585 yep art style
DB was the best imo. Doesn't get enough love. Back when martial arts mattered more and wasn't just kick punch punch kick teleport kick punch punch kick teleport. Back when it felt like Goku was having an adventure. Back when he was a lot more dumb and the series overall was less serious and more comedic. It's the closest manga to One Piece is imo. It's clear as day that it's what Oda got most his inspiration from.
@@ShahriyarAlam1 yes DB is great and more balanced, but Z or Kai Is where most people where introduce to the DB franchise
@@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD just because the majority were introduced from Z/Kai doesn't mean it's better. There are many hidden gems in almost every media and some of them are better than the more popular ones. Z gained most of its popularity from kids and young teens who grew up with the dub on TV, and also because of the massive power gap in Z compared to most other anime characters hence why the meme "But can he beat Goku tho?" is a thing. It's one of the few anime where they make it obvious that characters are able to destroy planets with little effort. In DB, characters aren't capable of such a feat except maybe King Piccolo and Master Roshi. Goku thought he was an ordinary human being. Personally I think it's more interesting because of this, though. Due to him thinking he's on the same level as a human is why we were able to get cool adventurous stories. It's why I like One Piece manga, it doesn't suffer from pacing issues like the anime does since Toei Animation has no involvement and Luffy is equally as dumb as kid Goku or if not dumber. Pre-time skip is also less serious and more comedy like DB. It's where Oda got his inspiration from.
I grew up with Faulconer score and the toonami run. Even as I got older and watched sub, dubbed, toonami, Kai etc. The best score for me is Faulconer.
My biggest thing with Super is the overall vibe. There is something lost about the textures and vibe that Z had. Hard to explain...but it's like watching Alien compared to Alien Covenant. There is this weird vibe you get from the original that can't be replaced.
@@secoTheSonicFan super had such a sick sound. And I disagree with most; I think the beginning of super was strong with music. Like when Goku became a God, the Frieza music, it was all super sick.
Maybe you could add like consequences, martial arts, giving other people a meaningful win than having Goku win, and exploring the lore. I did felt Super is lacking heavily
No one cares about fodder
@@Dave-gk6si Everyone cares about characters that arent goku and vegeta.
@@Xero-rr2ol Do they?
@@Dave-gk6si Ask any real fan of dragon ball and they will tell you. Even toriyama stated his favorite character was piccolo. Dont even he doesnt even lead anything anymore. Hes kind of just there.
@@Xero-rr2ol He said his favorite was Hercule he only said Piccolo before Hercule was ever around. Didn’t stop him from making Piccolo look like a fool.
I Love that slow build up, even with fillers in, DB, and DBZ. I ain't goin lie ya list is beyond on point dog. Respect ✊
If you ask me, the one main thing that OG DB and DBZ had that Super is missing is a sense of mystery and discovery about the world that the saga was illustrating.
In all the old arcs there was always a left field reveal that makes us wonder what will happen to the main cast and how they can overcome it. From just seeing the world for the first time, to facing an army, to confronting demons, to space invaders, to galactic overlords, and to menaces from the future there were always new stakes that raised the bar and left uncertainty in the viewer's mind. The Buu saga was the one classic saga that didn't quite raise that mystery well enough in the beginning to make it as iconic as the ones before it, but even it also spent time showing the viewers how the cast were attempting to overcome the problems in their way, which is the other part of the problem Super has.
Aside from the viewer basically always knowing what to expect in subsequent chapters of Super it relies too much on dropping solutions on problems rather than explaining how characters came to that solution. Show, don't tell, is a universal storytelling guideline and far too many forms and plot twists just appear from literally nowhere or are explained with backstage "secret training" that conveniently happens with no context for why it was done before the moment that it was arbitrarily needed. The Goku Black was probably the best attempt in Super to capture the essence of old formula, and even it falls victim to these shortcomings on more than one occasion.
If Super really wants to recapture the feelings of OG DB and DBZ it needs to embrace the unknown that can't be solved with simply a new form or just hit the new baddie really hard, but instead force the cast to take a step back, think about what they're doing, and don't tell us everything about the villain right off the bat. Keep the viewers guessing about what will happen next, and Super might be able to live up to legacy of what came before it.
They fixed it now on Moro Arc Granolah and Super Hero
What Super missed for me was the consistency. You have Tien shitting his pants for a small sparring session and devaluing the character. Tien had so much more balls when he was willing to hold off Cell. You have certain characters regressing when they had so much development. Vegeta's development, atonement and acceptance during the Buu Saga was phenomenal writing. Also, you don't need Goku to show you're strong. In Super, everyone had to fight blue Goku to show they are strong even Krillin and devalue the transformation which I thought was like a legendary new form but now it's overused. Also, there's the kid in me. The impact of the fights are way less than in z. In Z, you would feel the impact from punches and see mountains and planets shattering. Show off the power. Don't be afraid. Give us those feats.
I think Sumitonos score really fits Super and Broly imo, but what I 100% agree with you on is the sound effects
I don't know why they don't re-use the original anime's sound effects, but they use them for One Piece now which is a shame. Maybe Toei don't want two of their ongoing anime to use the same sound effects
I find that a shame because DBZ sound effects would definitely sound better in super than One Piece. They make One Piece fights sound bigger than they are
I think the biggest problem with DBS is the power scaling if the people are strong side characters get boosted beyond what they should be able to do
In Z when the people were too strong the others couldn’t do anything to them especially after friza but even though they couldn’t do anything in a fight they were still apart of the plot.
I think music wise they can make a remixed version of the classic music from both the original Japanese music as well as what the Falconer productions brought abroad to the international audiences.
The music was so fire in super I love the ui theme that’s pretty much it
"international audiences" that's only USA, everyone else had the original japanese music and loved it
@@diansc7322 Except in DVD releases where both scores would have been in options if I recall. You wanna bash me for not knowing what other countries had with their dubs? Why reply?
@@destinedforgreatness3030 Very true, people can use a mix of new and old though.
@@Robinx1985 yeah true
1) Lack of blood
2) Lack of suspense. You knew the Z-Fighters were going to make it out alive.
3) Access to the gods. Having Zeno in your pocket takes away a lot.
4) Power scaling was too ridiculous. The power ups felt rushed and took away from all the training they did.
I hope that when/if Super returns that they buff the other Z fighters like they did with Piccolo in Superhero. I mean, I don't need them to be just as strong as Goku and Vegeta, but it's be nice if they at least became strong enough to take on the villains again.
No Super Hero was a terrible film so is your idea
@@Dave-gk6si My idea of... getting the other Z fighters somewhere close to the power levels Goku and Vegeta? I never even said it had to via a transformation...
@@marplatense31 Where did I say transformation
@@Dave-gk6si Since you brought up Superhero I thought you assumed I meat giving them a transformation like what happened with Piccolo and Gohan. Otherwise I don't see any reason to be against giving the other Z fighters a step up.
@@marplatense31 The Z fighters are done Toriyama made his decision back then trying to go against it will only further drag things in the mud
I miss the art style of the Buu saga 😢 😔 it just hits different. So much attention to detail. Super doesn't have that. I can see it with the Jiren vs Vegeta. Gohan vs Dispo but it's not common smh
The reason why the DBS anime failed with its story & plot was because Toei put the series into quick production which explains why they ended up re-telling Battle of Gods & Resurrection F.
its a good idea just to put story but that Copy Vegeta Arc should let Gotenks to Fight or had its own story arc
One thing we’re definitely missing is a serious goku that understands the danger of a situation
It’s so annoying when he’s facing an earth threatening threat and you just see him smiling and stuff. I get it’s apart of who he is but if the main character isn’t gonna take anything seriously than why should we?
Yrah, but that's a Goku trait. That's been there since the OG on top of Goku's overconfidence (that he has been called out for in the Resurrection F movie) giving him a flaw other than just his general naive nature. Plus it makes the cases when he is serious stand out more.
Especially since in Super, he got a get out of jail free card with Whis and Zeno, so ots more a case of him having reasons to be carefree than him actually being it
Goku takes fights seriously, however him smiling in fights is part of his saiyan nature. As he got stronger overtime, he gets more excited
@@rari2xx saiyan nature would be smiling at a dead body with furrowed brows. not going uWu when the final boss appears
@@KreepKarnage brother saiyans get stronger everytime they fight, and goku has been like this
@@rari2xx but he also had serious sides and wasnt 100% goofy like he is now. like others said, he was naive, Not stupid.
Before i even watch it im gonna guess its stakes, with their being a further point in time where everything is okay and everyone is still alive (z's ending) it takes almost all the tension out when a character we know is alive down the road is in danger. The focus ends up being more on how their gonna survive instead of if they will. It only feels normal with new characters or characters who's fates were previously unknown like future trunks. If we just go past z's ending the future will be unknown and alot more interesting again.
I totally agree with all you said. I was expecting to mention censorship too.
Blood and wounds are very important to make you feel that the character's life is on the line.
I don't think super taking place between buu arc and end of z means anything. They could always just decide to retcon it and come up with a new ending; in fact I think it's likely that they will. (or that they'll retcon certain aspects of it regarding which characters show up)
Yeah it’s probably going to be retconned a little.
I think blood definetely deserves a mention. I remember in original dragon ball when piccolo ripped his own arm off or in z how goku and raditz got pierced by piccolo or even how frieza got literally cut in half. We don't see this kind of stuff in super all we see in super are ripped clothes and small cuts
Bruce faulconers music is so good. It really makes you feel every moment.
Reason number one is also my top reason. I once had aspirations in fight choreography and I sorely missed that DBZ fight sequencing in DBS. The closest we got to that were fights involving Hit, IMO
Yeah I agree! The Fights in the Universe 6 Tournament were very well choreographed In my opinion especially when Goku fought Hit!
Eventhough the T.O.P. in Super is one of my fav arcs and when Goku starts to tap into U.I. was epic, it doesnt have as much of the struggle is real as much as DBZ did. Also, as you said most if not all the characters were involved making it a more well rounded story over DB Super. Having the Spirit Bomb as a last ditch effort seemed more powerful storywise in DBZ then alot of things in DB Super, and I agree slow it down.
Z is the pinnacle of db super don't have blod arm cuts kills sacrifices is childish goku looks to skinny tien looks to skinny killing all vegeta story telling yoy ned watch 100 eps in super to reach something ah let's say God power calling is very bad in super androids where at picolo level when he fused with kami is to much wrongs in super dbz is nice from the 1st episode is amazing super ists not only broly movie was nicely made with graphics as z
In early Naruto Shippuden the music was different from part 1. When they changed it back, it made a huge difference on the feeling of the show.
Another thing was that it was very very dark and a lot more brutal than people give it credit for. It was by no means a Death Note type of thing but for a shonen it really knew how to make you think. It also was damn good at humbling the characters. A lot of people were pissed about Majin Vegeta's sacrifice meaning nothing, but for me it added an extra bit of terror because Buu was really that powerful.
totally agree on the pacing argument. without the proper buildup, reaching the climax just don't have the same impact
1 word TENSION no villain really felt like they could kill an important character. The main characters have too much help from other really strong characters.
Super needed a bit longer fights sometimes, although I understand why they didn't from backlash they probably got from fights such as
Goku vs frieza
Goku vs cell
Goku vs Kid Buu
All these fights were 3 episodes plus.
Super really lacked the stakes, and relied too much on nostalgic moments. They have to get out of this Era before the end of Z it hurts the story. We know everyone will survive because they HAVE to they were all st the end of Z so they have to survive where encounter they're in.
Once Super gets out if this Era and past the end of Z then I believe Super will be A LOT better
Every thing is fixed now on Season 2 of Super Moro and Granolah had more 3-4 episodes fighting
The reason you don't get that feeling anymore is because you AREN'T A KID! My 8 and 5 year Olds LOVE super. And I'm sure they have that feeling you miss. You aren't a child
Goku was better written in Z versus Super. In Z Goku was simple but not a complete moron nor immature. You could sort of believe that he was a martial art prodigy. In super - Goku was the weakest characters. Even though they (writers) wrote the storylines to give him SSG, SSB, SSBK, UI, MUI, and TUI - to me that maybe writer’s favoritism.
In Z, I hated Vegeta, but at least in Super, Vegeta was a better character. You start rooting for him. Didn’t like Gohan in Super until tournament of power.
i loved it in z when the fights had you worried that a character might die that goku might lose and keep you invested in the story, i don't think super has it it always felt like you knew the outcome
So hilariously I remember when I was 17 watching Dragon Ball Z air on Toonami. I believe I was in the Cell Saga in any case I was just recently graduated from high school and in Las Vegas immediately after on a summer break. The year was 2002 the Stratosphere had opened and becoming one of the more popular attractions there was rides at the top and I really wanted to check them out. While I was out for the afternoon with my mother who lived in Vegas, (I had graduated high school from Florida) she took me to the stratosphere and promised me to take me to the top for the rides. As we are pulling up I literally looked at the clock and it was like 4:30. I just completely out of nowhere panicked because I could not believe it was almost 5:00 p.m. local Air Time which was when DBZ would come on back in those days. 30 minutes was exactly how far the stratosphere was from our house and I had her step on it and she could not believe that I was turning down a complete experience for a 30-minute episode of cartoons! 17 years old I mean give me a break I should have been all over that Stratosphere ride but you know what Dragon Ball Z was still one of the most passionate things on TV I was so hooked on it. To this day I still have not ridden those rides and I can't tell you how many times I have seen the entire Cell saga!
For me there's a few things that would really capture the original feel again. I'm not too hopeful about music or sound effects returning anymore even though that helps greatly. The things I would expect to happen for it to be GOOD (personally) are (ESSAY WARNING):
1. A story with continuity and consequences carrying over, drop this whole villian of the arc thing they got going. The series needs proper direction. Because DB is more corprate now, they seem to have a meeting to discuss ideas for the next arc and thats it, they dont think beyond it. The result is a directionless series made for money that lacks in quality compared to its predecessor, with things like UI having to constantly be retconned and changed into oblivion.
2. Stakes, as Geekdom said, they gotta push past Z by now. Also find ways to either threaten beerus/whis or write them out in an actual clever way, not when he's about to hakai the main villian he gets a phone call. Thats just stupid, he could have hakai'd and left in a few seconds. You can't tell me those would have caused his death if he didn't go instantly.
3. Continuing the "bigger" plotline. I feel like we've been stuck in limbo for a while now. We wanna see actual considerable power leaps and threats to the angels or the grand priest, something that really shocks us and makes the situation feel hopeless again (Black Frieza was pretty good).
4. Better battle choreography. Super (minus the last couple of episodes) didn't land the mark for me. Especially not compared to Z. Z's fights were so much more creative and interesting and felt like they had strategy. Super went too hard on the flashy aspect in my opinion and even that can't be considered a full success.
5. Better use of side charectars, as Geekdom said. Just because they cant fight the main villian doesn't mean they can't be useful. Look at krillin in the cell saga as an example. And don't just create filler enemies for them to fight, that means nothing. I want to see actual growth and struggle that makes sense and contributes to the ending of the arc. Don't just make it seem emotional for the sake of it.
6.Better established power scales. Right now, we have no idea who's stronger than who if i'm being honest. Its like they avoid/retcon these in universe discussions on purpose. Can UI Goku beat Beerus? In the past, now apparently not. Was Jiren more powerful? Infinitely, but now he's supposedly weaker. How far up the scale is Blue anyway compared to the others? What about Gohan and Piccolo? Would a hypothetical fusion be as strong as Whis? Is Black Frieza even stronger? No clue, at least from watching. Instead we have to spend hours trying to dissect promotional statements made to hype up a movie (which is fun in its own right).
7. Explore the current plot threads rather than making up new ones all the time. We have so many left dangling and its like they're choosing not to connect the series to make it whole. Universe 6 Sadala, the 4 Universes that didn't participate, the 6 universes Zen Oh killed before, trainee angels, a threat to Zen-Oh, Demon Realm (Even if its hero's thing), Zalama and more on the super dragonballs, just to name a few.
Wish this video was longer with a bigger list. For me the stakes aren’t big enough, the dragon balls all need to be destroyed and then it’ll be stressful to watch. That’s why the frieza saga was so good. Need more blood and violence back, bigger muscles like in Z. It would be awesome to see one of the side characters show up to a fight to help and not get trashed but someone surpass there own limits and do something special. Also they need to explore more things and places. We need more techniques, more hand and ground combat and maybe just some more mystery thrown in to keep us wondering
Everything you said happens in the manga of super
You're missing a HUGE element that both Ball and Z had, but Super didn't. It's the villains. DBS had basically one villain. Zamasu. The rest were just an opponent or antagonist, which aren't necessarily villains.
I hate what they did with Goku, if we compare the Goku from the cell saga vs the super one they make him look dumber and more immature than he really is, I think it has been a regression to the character
“This text is over the footage…” box had me lollin man 😂👏🏻😂
I honestly feel like , goku will have a brand new mastered ultra instinct form 👀 I been having that feeling
Pacing is the number one thing.
ToP is 55 episodes.
The ENTIRETY of GT is 64.
All of Nameck was 68 and the issues are well known there.
For comparison:
All of Gundam Wing is 49 episodes.
Cowboy Bebop is just 26.
I have no idea what they were thinking in the writer's or director's room, but just absolutely horrible decisions were made there.
People don't want however many episodes dedicated to Ribrianne as they reuse animation of Heles over and over.
💯 percent facts,I agree with all of it you took the words right out of my mouth and I know Super Hero was an attempt to utilize character's like Gohan and Piccolo more but it needs to happen way more especially with these two!
Z is badass. Super looks like a show for babies.
I agree with all your list, my add ons would be fixing the power scaling so its not like every arc is a new color pallet form or just always someone stronger than Goku and Vegeta every arc idk how to explain but it just feels like the power scaling is just weird now, so fixing it would be good. And adding blood would be nice, I know they cant add too much blood anymore on the anime but it'll be nice to see some blood once and awhile to give that nostalgic feeling like good old times but other than that all your points I agree
I still think yurin and Oceanus are very underrated dragon ball characters (one's from super and the other is from gt.).
Love when you do videos like this reminds me of when I first started watching your videos keep up the great work!!!
Supers issues is that it does what the boo saga was hated for. It sidelines everyone whos not goku and vegeta while butchering characterizations and leaving everyone useless. Not the mention repeating Vegeta amd gohans character arcs from older arcs in z
Blood is one of the things needed in super, so much prefer the manga for that reason. Makes the fights feel so much heavier.
Honestly the hits in Z you feel like you can FEEL the impact. In super it’s just dadadadadadada
Think you've nailed it with the pacing, even the way it's filled out, silly things like roshi and others watching the fights with baba or dende in the lookout with popo, it just isolates so many of the original characters 🤔
As a DBZ fan I have never watched any DBS. The newer movies really intrigue me but a co worker of mine who has seen all of the Super series said too watch that before the movies. I am so conflicted on all I have read about Super. Is it that corny and aimed at a younger crowd to the point it's cringy to watch? Just trying to decide what I wanna do. Wanna watch the movies but will not know what it going on in the movies if I have never seen any of DBS. If I decide on watching Super I'd like to watch them on Blu-ray on my 4k tv but the full Blu-ray set is over $200 and higher if brand new. Ugh decisions decisions. Any suggestions?
The new Z-Fighters should be outside of Goku and Vegeta are:
- Gohan
- Goten
- Trunks
- Pan
- Piccolo
- Krillin
- 18
- 17
- Broly
Honorary Members:
- Gamma 1
- Granola
- Cabba
- Caulifla
- Kale
The Team has more than enough ppl to tell compelling stories with without having to only use Goku and Vegeta.
Well dbs had nothing serious. Just short fights with Beerus and Frieza followed by an okayish black goku arc and then universe 6 stretch. ToP was great to watch and does deserve appreciation. However none of them except ToP seemed as brutal or desperate as dbz was.
Though I would say that Moro and granola arc would be 1000 times better. Moro arc would be the best as it has all the brutality, desperation, skill, plot, teamwork etc in it. Granola arc was just goku and vegeta fight. If super continues, Moro arc might pass even the cell arc. We gotta see.
Honestly Toriyama's editors are a big part of it too. A lot of the more interesting aspects and shocking developments of DB we're forced on him by his editors. Now there's nobody there to kinda reign him in. Too many yes men.
I wish you wouldn’t say yes men these days it’s cringe
@@Dave-gk6si but it's true! It's not a reddit meme so how is it cringe?
@@areaxisthegurkha I’m talking about George Lucas and how many of his haters used to lie about him.
Nah, Super treated the side characters better. Master Roshi participated in a whole tournament, but he was a non factor in DBZ.
Reason I think its about time super goes after Z already is one, basically a lot is happening and characters seem to be all powered up but still do not grow old. And also yes, Goku is suppose to be much more powerfull at the end of Z, but the way its going it will be so damn OP, and Uub should like be kicked out with just a punch since he should be the "same" level as majin buu
Music is all 5 though I do really like TOP and Broly Sumitomo
Huge fan of the Faulkner score (and even nostalgic for the music from the syndicated run, for that matter), and I agree on the music. Outside of Broly and the opening themes, Super has little that's all that memorable in terms of high energy music for a big climactic moment. Certainly nothing in the way of Super Saiyan 3 Ascension, or Super Buu's theme.
Art Style is The main Reason I Like DBZ Better Than DBS
2:30 I know music preferences can be nostalgic based but I don’t think it’s fair to just blame nostalgia for why people like one score over another. For instance I grew up with Falconer’s score and like it more but that doesn’t change the fact that the Japanese version of Gohan going SSJ2 in MY OPINION is better than the Falconer version.
Basically what I’m saying is, it’s nuanced
I would appreciate if your videos in the future had some background music :D
But otherwise great video!
Well they certainly slowed down the pacing in the Granola arc lol
What made Dbz and DB better than DBS is that the side characters got their spotlight and there was a sense of adventure with the original DB. In addition fights were more technique and relied more on abilities and techniques than just pure power.
for me the biggest flaw super had was the audience target. back then it was for early teens, so there were some instances with bloody moments and shocking death scenes, plus the big explosives had impacts. Super is for little kids so all those gone. Zamasu? erased. Really heavy hits? stretch the body and a little more spit. The assassins from hit? a corruption in the heart place. Even the kills were banned in t.o.p., not to mention that it took place in a void dimension, while the only "killing" was the erase of the loser universe, like it was a mark on chart and zenoes were the erasers.
Dbs doesnt even feel like its toriyamas show. Ever since they created this God hierarchy it seems like Goku and vegeta are just moving way too fast. Like goku is so perfect easily achieving and mastering a form, that they re nerfed him in moro and came up with a new way to improve an already mastered form, then in the next arc they retcon how ui works and now this new ui form that goku just creates is somehow better than the ones the angels use. So the pacing and the overuse of transformations just make this show unbearable at times. We had ssg ssjb, Trunks random transformation that somehow put him on blue level(looked like it was even stronger than blue)ssj Rose, ssb kaioken, evolution blue, ui omen 1, omen 2, Mastered ui, "True ui"(which is the dumbest thing ever), and ultra ego. THATS 10 TRANSFORMATIONS!!! They seem to forgot how to make a good story without relying on multiple random transformations.
For me, the one thing Z has over Super was the awesome dub changes! Superhero Goku is so awesome and I do miss him a lot!
Lol, I half joke, of course. I say half joke cuz I really do prefer the old dub over everything, though I recognize that the dub changes were incredibly wrong from a moral standpoint and the original version is vastly superior from a writing standpoint.
Anyway, one thing I genuinely do think original DB, DBZ, and even DBGT had over Super was a *soul.* I don’t know how to explain it really, but when I watch Super, while it is entertaining, it feels like it’s just going through the motions and trying to stay relevant. It feels kinda soulless to me. The original three series just have this very strong and vibrant spirit and charm that sweeps me off my feet somehow.
I’m so sick of this scam shit. Leave me alone damn it
One was made with passion and the other with greed.
I'll never forget watching Tien hold Cell back with his blasts. I was so impressed with him and loved his character at that point. Then he just got nerfed and became a nobody. Same goes for Piccolo in the Frieza saga being really strong.
Controversial Take: Dragon Ball Super SuperHero is the saving grace of Dragon Ball Super. Super Hero had a Z like feel to bc everyone was involved. Similar to why some many ppl like the anime ToP. If that movie didn’t have Goku and Vegeta sidelined, Dragon Ball wouldn’t have had a groundbreaking year it had this year. Right now the MVPs of Dragon Ball are Gohan and Frieza. The moment we got to see something fresh with character other than Goku and Vegeta, everybody was excited for new Dragon Ball content. Having the series only revolve around Goku and Vegeta is now tiring and frustrating for fans bc the rest of the characters deserve some shine. The fans grew up with the story revolving around a wide range of characters not just Goku and Vegeta. When Dragon Ball comes back, Toriyama, Toyotaro and the creative team need to go back to the roots of Dragon Ball and make Super Part 2 the adventures of Goku and his friends.
I think it will always on Goku and Vegeta cause they are main characters you see it on Moro Arc and Granolah the wasted character potential is Gotenks getting older without fighting im expecting him use ghost attack or something new
Z was simply overall better, Story, pacing, Animation, artstyle, character designs etc.
I’m Super they made Goku really goofy and not serious enough. And also I might be in the minority but SSJGod transformation is stupid to me.
Too me when I was younger the original taught me that training and putting in the work yielded good results🤷♂️, now if I want to get stronger like they do in super I just need to dye my hair apparently🤦♂️😂😂
More like "what Super is missing"
I'm sorry, but the majority of transformations lack zero purpose and feel tacked on, and the story lacks a lot of tangible stakes beyond just "the universe/Earth will be destroyed". And by that, I mean "there isn't very many stakes for Goku and Vegeta." Its why Super Hero received as much praise as it did despite still having that transformation issue. Like, more than anything: we want to see some semblance of the Z Warriors again and we want for the story to matter to our main characters.
Like, aside from the last arc's tie in with Bardock's story and Goku discovering that, not much else exactly happened during the Granolah Arc to forward either character's story beyond just "Vegeta is embracing his pride" and "Goku is embracing his emotions". Neither of those exactly hold a candle to Vegeta trying to atone for his sins during the Moro Arc, something which DBS before that arc hadn't really had the balls to try and attempt. That's honestly up there with the whole Majin Vegeta stuff in the Buu Saga when it comes to Vegeta's character.
Thus music, the art, and the story. Were all better before
The anime taking a break and letting toyotarou continue the manga might give us hope yet for your number 1 point. Moro and Granola arcs should result in some awesome animation and fights.
You missed the most important point: The biggest problem with super is the power creep. In DBZ the characters had to suffer beyond belief to push themselves into the next level. Blood, sweat and tears to get there, and for that reason it felt awesome to see them get there. In super, they just snap their fingers and there goes another level. Not a lot of effort involved, not to mention the rainbow of new colors that makes it look more like a child's cartoon.
Z for Men
Super for Kids
End of discussion 😅
(Don't get me wrong, I enjoy everything dragonball related)
really spot on with your points I agree with 5 and 1 the most I really like DBZ ep. 81 when piccolo fights Frieza 2nd form immediately after the mid-way cut love that brief sequence with the OG Japanese score.