Gt Goku - Body of a child yet acts like a wise mature veteran Super Goku - Body of a mature veteran, mind of a child. I find it funny how they parallel.
@@CAGExplains To me, Dragonball has been slowly degrading into slop. Imo this was visible during as early as the frieza saga with the biggest issue this series has: powerscaling. Followed up by it's characters and story
Seeing Goku mature from an isolated mountain kid into a mature martial arts veteran was one of the greatest privileges anime and manga ever granted to me. Seeing the complete regression and destruction of that growth is one of the greatest tragedies.
TFS is to blame. DBZ came back because of their success at reviving what was a more or less done and dusted franchise. At least we are getting Tenkaichi 4
i agree, Goku was never meant to be dumb, just naive, i mean he lived in the mountains with no human contact after the one person he knew was dead, why would he know calculous or geopolitics?
Bro did a little training and got god ki perfectly written lol. But really they could have just said he got trained by another angel or something or some other god
Which makes it even more hillarious that we now know Toriyama only made Beast to please the movie's producers. He genuinely couldn't give less of a fuck about Gohan.
@@theelike4302he couldn’t care less about any character besides Goku. He was forced to give a fuck about Vegeta. Hell he’s forgotten half of his original characters
That scene in Super Hero drove me nuts. Goku's whole deal in Cell games was that he mastered Super Saiyan with Gohan by basically going easy and comfortable with it, where as Vegeta didn't master it because his training amounted to overworking. Now we have the opposite, a Vegeta who believes in balanced training(reasonable character development) and a Goku who just thinks the only training is going harder( regression)
In the original dragon Ball, Goku always came across as uneducated, rather than just plain stupid. He'd always show himself to be extremely smart when it came to fighting, because that's all he ever knew. This was especially true in Z, where he'd use his superior battle knowledge to outwit his opponents at times. Sure, he was never the smartest under the sun, but he was never a complete idiot.
@@Variethan with beerus and with zeno, he understood like how dire the earth's situation would be and even let himself stay dead just so earth would be safe, even in early dbz even though there were 2 strong saiyans, he wasnt excited. but in dbs hes portrayed as someone who will fucking do anything to fight strong guys, also tell me how dbs isnt structured around the saiyans and had time for other characters
Goku's a case of being street smart but book dumb. Really knows how to throw hands, but can't win a fight of normal socializing to save his life (not for a lack of trying; just how many people are going to believe he defeated a galactic emperor on another planet if he brought it up?)
@@dalejhunter1Goku has more friends than the number of people you will meet in life. His socializing is of a wide spectrum not some narrow range of urban socializing so that you can conform yourself to the demands of the so called "civilised society".
The worst part is that it's not just Toriyama. You can see both Toei's writing staff as well as Toyotarou are following the same footsteps in writing his character. It's weird to see Vegeta being more level-headed and less arrogant then Son Goku later into Super. I could understand if Son Goku softened up a bit and needed to take things more seriously since he still has that innocence to his character.... but no, they take it too far.
@@leultrainstinct406 goku got development in super? 🤣 if you don’t mind, tell me one time that gokus character actually developed in super. JUST ONE! 😂
to be short, the goku we have now is the best goku...to sell more merch. Not narratively the best written. They wanted what was basically a fresh shonen protag with how Goku is in Super. Doesnt matter if it erases his character and achievements.
he lost it after cell saga. being too lazy to write Gohan into his own character as a teenager, realising he was just going to write Goku again, and undoing the shift he had planned for the series was it for the series narratively.
@@corwinchapman8270 My theory is that toriyama just never was THAT good of a writer, he pushed himself to achieve what he did, then when he saw it was still going he gave up. Watching super made me think he wants to turn dragonball into dr slump.
@@corwinchapman8270for one he had to make a manga each week two gohan was actually boring, who wants to watch him study, he doesn’t have a real reason to fight :1
@@Benji_Jokjo that's the whole point. Gohan IS boring, his job as a writer was to get us interested in him as a person. Think about Goku in the original series, he was a complete bumbling idiot who most of the time was literally training or walking around instead of fighting, yet toriyama showed that you can have your cake and eat it too by making him charismatic and making his path to glory a sight to see. The problem was that Gohan was not a bumbling idiot, he now had to do the same he did with Goku but with no excuses for him to make the same mistake 9 times before learning it. It's not that Gohan was boring, is that Gohan was smarter than toriyama could write. Thus, he had to revert to good ol' Goku.
Watching Dragon Ball as a kid, where Goku goes from a naive kid to a respectable adult absolutely changed my life. Kids watching Dragon Ball Super were robbed of this.
@@Shiirow Actually he was respected by kami( the protector of the earth) when he defeated piccolo at end of show. Kami had great respect for goku and for turtle school. No he was never respected far and wide by normal people, but with who he has crossed path, they respected him
@@sydneyowusu3750 yeah i know, but the manga's canon is generally the only one that matters, and if the manga is going off of the movies now then movie goku and everything movie goku does is canon to the main canon story of dbs
Such a shame too. I really feel like Toriyama got this wrong. They could have even kept all his progress and then perhaps designed god ki in such a way that didn't quite fit the mold of Earth-like martial arts. Excellent video! I can't believe I missed how goofy it was to simply pretend Goku just didn't know what meditation was when that conversation could quite simply have been directed toward Broly.
Exactly, it should've been broly asking what Vegeta was doing, since he didn't know what meditation, much less ki control, was yet. And Goku was the one to explain what it meant to him, and how Vegeta is doing some "other type of training".
It's actually crazy how the GT writers managed to capture Goku's goofy personality while also giving him the maturity that he obviously would have with the age and experience he has like significantly better than toriyama ever could have dreamed to do
I hate GT because of its story writing and pacing, but I’d be a fool to say that it doesn’t do damn well characterizing characters consistently with their Z counterparts.
Dude when goku finally got serious against that whip dude in gt with as like there he is my boy. Or against general rildo mentioning majin buu. So badass
@@Watermelon_Man That's because GT was completely static. They just took the status quo from the end of Z, and didn't change a single thing about any of the characters 10 years later.
The fact that the idea that they could just make super a story with a different protagonist, like Gohan and Goten didn’t even pass through Toriyama’s mind just boggles my mind
It probably did, but I don't think he would wanna put in that much effort anymore after Z and how hard he worked on that series. The way he leaves notes for Toei and Toyotaro to write is... kinda lackluster. And with movies, they're good, but I still can't help but feel like if he really wanted this could have been way better without having to repeat the same development.
It was all about the brand recongition, Goku being the protagonist has very strong nostalgic ties to people, Dragon Ball coming back without him as the face could've been seen as a risk by all involved.
Goku is dragon ball. It would make no sense for anyone to replace him ever since Dragon ball started it has always been about goku and think about it dragon ball is about fighting the next strongest opponents and getting stronger. Who in the series do we know that consistently fighting the next strongest opponents and gets stronger? It’s GOKU and we already seen how gohan and goten isn’t interested in fighting or even training so it would make no sense for them to be the main characters.
@@lukehall2255 Goten seemed pretty interested in fighting and training after his mom died before his very eyes, and Gohan was already supposed to be a protagonist after the cell arc, and even WAS the protagonist on super hero.
@@pitanga1724 but they don’t CONSISTENTLY train or fight goku does and goku doesn’t have to wait until someone dies in order for him to train. He trains cause he likes to get stronger and fight more stronger opponents
I don't understand why he felt Gohan failed. He's an extremely popular character and many people have yearned to see him rise to stardom. It would have been an easy answer and much room for growth in Pan and Goten. He made the choice to regress. But that wasn't his only option.
At least he has an excuse. Goku is constantly fighting and yet he is regressing inch by inch that its like watching a man dying of a disease in a hospital bed. You can do nothing but watch as he gets ruined
goten is an absolute tragedy of a character. he was showing up to be goku v2 but just disappeared into nothingness. hell even bra had some potential as the female saiyan fighter alongside trunks.
It's less a matter of him forgetting more so one of him (and the casual viewerbase) not particularly caring, anything he does prints money so at this point why even bother with proper character development? Toriyama had already been checking out by the time of the Buu saga, so it was only natural that he would half ass his return to the series 20 years later.
Toriyama doesn't write his story down like most mangaka he simply just tells the story in his head, that's why he forgets and it's normal cause he doesn't write it down
Scary? I see you had blinders on from the very beginning. Toriyama has shat on characters throughout the entire story, whether its forgetting them, purposely doing nothing with them, or changing their character entirely. Its about time Goku fans opened their eyes.
@@PathBeyondTheDark Real, I still burst out laughing to this day everytime I remember what he did to Launch, or Tien and Yamcha, also I saw people complaining about dbs Goku regression since 2016 so this is nothing new, my problem with Toriyama when it comes to characters is much more about he straight up leaving them to rot and doing nothing with them than forgetting them (the only one I think suffered from this is Launch).
Thank you for this. I think the most frustrating thing about the last few years, was all the gaslighting, of people saying Goku has always been like this. But as you’ve shown, and with manga references, that’s not true. These are lessons he already knew. He truly is being regressed.
the worse I've ever read, from Toriyama too, is that he considered his family as companions. Craziness at it's finest, considering even the manga has plenty of scenes in which he shows affection and dedication to his boy and wife. I find absurd that I have to read these things ruining the beautiful memory I have of those episodes which are a real thing and not just fan fiction material. And for what? Is not even fan service considering every DB fan prefers mature Goku than anything else. He of course is a bit clueless at times, but that's the beauty of him.
I think more and more people went back to watch Z or Z kai/the manga. The difference in Goku from Z to Super is nearly impossible to deny at that point.
Yeah it was ridiculous I stopped watching Super around episode 50 because I couldn't stomach him. I blamed it on the Abridged series. I actually think the Super writers watched that and got their own headcannon twisted. However, I also am off the impression that Toriyama was not a writer for the Super anime (however was more involved in the movies)
@@JD-mz1rl Toriyama's just as bad as Toei, if not worse. I'd put Toyotaro in 3rd place because he has more instances of Goku acting mature when the situation calls for it. If you look at DBS' bonus pages where Toyo shows scenes of his which Toriyama redrew, you'll see he changed up all the expressions in the scene where Krillin got mad at Goku for hiding the truth about the Tournament of Power. In Toyo's sketches, Krillin and Goku both have concerned faces and it feels more sentimental. In Toriyama's (the final product), Krillin has comedic expressions and Goku's just blank as if the punchline is "that's our Goku, always messing up!". It's clear that Toriyama is long gone from taking DB down a wholly serious path like it was for most of Z and instead wants it to have the tone of a comedy-adventure in a setting of life-and-death. Basically, DBS is one big Gotenks series.
@@purerage7963 hmmm. It's odd, because I felt a difference in his portrayal in the first two Super movies vs the anime (and yeah he made a crucial mistake in the 2nd movie, but I thought that was overall not out of character because Goku is used to always needing to fight a stronger enemy, and for once he was legitimately overconfident because he didn't consider Frieza a true threat). I get the draw to make DBS more like the original DB in tone, which I actually think is a good thing. But you can't do that by changing the core essence of what the characters are, you have to do that situationally. Goku has a naive heart, is not stupid, is not forgetful, and is a quick learner. After living with "real people" for a year or so in DB, his "ridiculous" stupidity is about all gone. To bring it back so jarringly was just too much for me, I couldn't continue with the series (I haven't seen the super Broly movie yet either)
Whats really funny is that this video is technically also a defense for why Goku reverted back into a child in GT. It imposed a new limit on him that he had to overcome with the growth he had obtained throughout original Dragon Ball.
a forced limit that came out of nowhere and used to create nonexistent tension. and above everything else, to milk the nostalgia fans felt from the original dragon ball which is why that entire first arc was a copy and paste of the original.
Except in GT it worked because it was a regression of his strength, not his character. And it was done in a way that was coherent with the story leading up to it, rather than inexplicably coming out of nowhere.
@@UnholyKaizen The funny thing is that back in the day, I heard people complain about GT making Goku too smart. Which really isn't true at all. All they really did was make his combat intelligence less subtle by having him more openly spell out what he was thinking, rather than leaving as much up to interpretation like they did prior. Now we have the opposite, except there's no rationalizing it. Even the reason given in this video is just an excuse for terrible writing.
dragon ball was never solely about martial arts even master roshi didn’t entirely focus on training martial arts instead training on other fighting things and mainly on ki blasts and training for a higher power level. Goku is an extremely skilled fighter NOT a martial artist. Goku has his own fighting style I don’t think martial arts were designed around a character with energy blasts, flight and the ability to vanish and reappear.
Рік тому+1553
They didn't just do him dirty on his combat growth, but also on his regular life. Things like he not knowing Gohan's birthday when he was having such a peaceful life AND was shown how much he cares about Gohan as a kid (and an adult, too!), as well as him not knowing what kissing is (when he has been married for over 20 years and has had 2 kids by that moment of his life) is just ridiculous. You can say whatever you want about saiyans not showing too much affection, but he grew as a human, surrounded by human manners and culture.
Except, he didn't really grow up around humans/human culture. Remember, hit head as a baby, grew up on mountain with only grandpa Gohan, who died. Lived alone for a bit. Traveled the world on a scavenger hunt with a teenager with anger issues, never stayed in one place long, never received any formal education, traveled or trained in all of his downtime. Eventually he marries another girl with anger issues and they live (again) in a remote mountainside. The only humans that ever had time to teach him to be human were Roshi and Chi Chi. I somehow doubt Roshi took time for non training things. His home was an island. And by the time he got married, the damage was done, and Chi Chi doesn't seem patient enough to educate against his ignorance. That last part is just a guess. As for the birthday thing, remember: remote, isolated home, no job for either parent, no reason to track dates. I'D forget someone's birthday in that environment lol
While I agree with the overall sentiment, Bulma was the first girl Goku ever met, he thought her car was a monster. He didn't exactly grow up surrounded by human manners and culture. Regardless, the character assassination of Goku is a shame.
I was watching some clips of the Janemba movie, and I really liked how Goku first fought with kind of a silly attitude while testing the fat janemba, you know, the classic "I really want to fight this strong guy", but after the comedic battle, Goku immediately changed his demeanour by realizing how actually dangerous Janemba was, he gets serious and turns into SS3 to end the fight fast.
Fusion: Reborn is probably one of my favorite movies just because we got more serious Goku and his SSJ3 which was relatively scarce throughout Z and Super
I realized when I was a kid by reading interviews before Super existed that Toriyama didn't care and didn't know why people liked his story. He made up the Super Saiyan form because he was tired of inking Goku's hair. He excelled at comedy but his editor made him do serious stuff, but his heart is not in it. It's one of those works that outgrew their creator and I'm sad to say, if there's a new golden age for the series it will only happen after he passes away.
I remember being called crazy and not-a-real-fan for saying this kind of stuff when the Super series was initially airing. Especially during the whole "What's a kiss" and "Oops. Forgot the Tag crucial for Evil Containment" debacle. Thank goodness you're here to put far more elegantly than I could now that everyone finally putting two-and-two together.
Another good point mentioned, is that it would have made more sense for Broly to be the one to learn about meditation and calmness, because he is a character who isn't like that at all and it would be ironic for his character to control his rage this way. Why would they make Goku the one who pretends to not understand something he was taught instead of being the one to affirm Whis being right to a character like Broly? Or to Vegeta, a character who never meditates (at least in the anime). Broly and Vegeta should be the one learning this stuff. Not Goku. If anything Goku should be the teacher's pet in all this. Not the idiot.
Vegeta does meditate in his own ways. He just stands on a cliff and does nothing but think about destorying his opponents. Isn't that a kind of a mediation too.
Exactly! Poor goku. I feel like Toriyama is just trolling everybody out of some twisted spite for some reason. I doubt he's being that forgetful or has gone crazy.
Yeah he actually needs an editor, I can't believe he was going to follow up on Freeza with Androids 19 and 20 as the main antagonists for the Android saga until his editor talked some sense into him 😂
Shit he forgot Super Saiyan 3, thought 18 had purple hair, and totally forgot Launch existed. His editors are the real heroes. I'm starting to think all those pictures of Toriyama smoking are more than tobacco
@@richborn6700 To be fair, he's 68 years old. He's been working on Dragonball since 1984, and originally ended it back in 1995. The guy is bound to forget a lot of things.
@@ZeroSmoke. And I'd agree. But like I said...the guy is almost 70, and has become forgetful. It's how it is. It's why him sort-of passing the torch to Toyotarou is a good thing. Toyotarou is able to work around and make as much sense as he can of whatever outlines Toriyama gives him, and has some influence on how things play out. There's some back and forth between them, as Toriyama is basically his supervisor and editor, and Toyotarou isn't perfect...but he at least likely knows and remembers the overall story and history better than the man himself does.
Toriyama always hated the idea that people thought of Goku as purely the Hero. He wanted him to be sort of dim and selfish with his need to fight stronger opponents. It's like how in the original dub it was said Goku let Vegeta live out of a sense of mercy. The original manga states flat-out that he only wants to fight Vegeta again someday.
And even then, Krillin COULD have killed Vegeta and i bet Goku would have understand completely, it is because of Goku's will to always become strong and protect those he loves that Krillin BELIEVES Goku can win. Toriyama thinka Goku is a full-on jackass here forgetting that THE ONE WHIT THE SWORD WAS KRILLIN and the only reason Krillin spared Vegeta was because Goku HAS ALWAYS protected the earth.
There is nothing wrong with seeing a character you really love as a Hero. He must have serious mental personal issues of people loving Goku that way. People love Goku for many reasons the majority of that love comes from seeing Goku trying his damn hardest to protect his friends, family and the planet he lives on. Since he hates people seeing Goku as a Hero maybe he should have thought of making Goku an unlikeable villain then.
@@KyleEvrayea but that isn’t the point of his character, the rzn y he “regressed” in super is bc this is the goku toriyama always wanted, he never wanted goku to be a hero or be seen as one, he wanted him to just be a fighter who makes selfish decisions to become stronger and super captures that perfectly
That isn't a problem. Luffy also said the same in One piece that he didn't consider himself a hero either. Every shonen MC was selfish. Naruto only cared about his goal of hokage. Luffy wanted to become King of Pirates. Ichigo wanted to protect his family. Goku loves fighting. That isn't the problem. The problem is that Goku's character in DBS isn't evolving to his own goals. Its fine he wants to grow stronger and just because of strength alone. He's a Saiyan. There isn't anything wrong with that. It's that if his mindset regresses in response to reaching that goal, then that's the problem. Goku fighting for his own benefit isn't a problem. Every being is selfish anyway, and Toriyama clearly wanted to give goku flaws. The problem is that he isn't evolving, isn't progressing, or doing anything of the sort or recalling past lessons and applying it to now. Naruto learned that Hokage was a complicated goal and isn't just acknowledgment. Ichigo had to accept every part of himself because he rejected his hollow side since the start of the series. Luffy grew from Ace's death and came out much better for it. Goku isn't the one evolving. He's learning lessons, and just forgetting them as they introduce a new arc.
Goku being a mature, wise and overall mastered character by the end of Z doesn't mean that there is *Nothing* you can do with the character, you just have to find innovative and inspired ways to put his training, his beliefs and his experience to the test. Maybe as he gets older he is starting to feel more fatigued after every fight and wants to let it all go, only to be keep getting dragged back in because nobody else can match him and Vegeta. You could go the opposite direction and maybe he is growing more aggressive as his Saiyan side begins taking over with age, maybe he cant get enough of fighting and can even become the villain of the story. I mean if we are just going to turn him into someone willing to risk the lives of himself, his friends, family and even the entire Universe, why not just steer into that and paint him as someone who has gotten so bored with being the most Powerful being in the Universe that he is literally willing to sacrifice everything to get even a tiny rush of adrenaline again. There are so many ways you can change, or even regress the character and have it feel natural and actually logical that fit into the story or even form the basis of the story. But what we got was just a complete Amateur job that was so uninspired and so painfully basic that its not even worth investing into. When I watch Z, its to see those moments of Goku, you all know what Im talking about. Those breakthroughs, those triumphs, those defeats, all of it. He is the star. But when I watch Super, Goku just kind of irritates me to the point where I only tune in for the fights.
They already had done an evil goku trope with Goku Black. It's clear that unlike Ichigo or even Luffy, Goku's character isn't even progressing. He is a shonen character but other shonen protagonists evolved in their own subtle way. Goku unfortunately is not. Many people say MC in shonen anime do not evolve or have zero development but that's blatantly false. Basic storytelling is where the MC/protagonist goes through an adventure and learn about others. They do not forget their lessons at all. Goku is the literal only exception to possibly every anime except Ash Ketchum in Pokemon
@lapplandkun9273 I really just don't understand why they didn't have the Goku black arc be something along the lines of what I was saying above. Have his Saiyan side start to emerge more, gradually taking hold of him bit by bit until he is full blown villain. You can plant seeds of it throughout Super so it's not so jarring, moments where his temper flares, he shows less mercy and even starts to toy with his foes. You could even have that arc fall at the very end of super and have it be a trult emotional thing, where he is jusy too far gone, not even his family and friends are enough to quell his need for battle, or now, destruction. He might start fighting beerus, getting closer and closer to beating him with every fight until he finally defeats him, and then smites him down. Then, instead of him assuming the mantle of GoD, he simply goes on this Broly esque, Goku Black arc. I agree with you about the shonen line up, it seems like people are a bit too eager to make an exception for how static Goku as a character is, and also how new this development is. He wasn't always static but people try to tell you he was, it's very bizarre.
Or... don't bring him back into the main role for the new series and soft-reboot it. Make a fucking new casts of character for a new DB series. His character arc already ended in Z and GT, so I don't see him developed any further or even in-character to even regressed due to his pure of heart.
It’s bad writing at its worst. A wise and mature character doesn’t have to be boring if the story is good. Captain Picard from Star Trek TNG for example is a highly mature and competent character and he is beloved by millions of people and the show is fascinating. Mature characters can still face difficult situations. A show like Dragon Ball contains many characters that could be used to tell interesting stories. But unfortunately, most characters have been sidelined. Also, as Picard has put it: “It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness; that is life.” And so it could be with Goku. He should be put in situations like that. We could see him deal with loss, regret, or maybe we could see him win things other than fights. Have him face more complex challenges than "must fight strong guy". Dragon Ball Multiverse had fascinating stories, even though not all of them were centered on Goku. How did they managed that but Toriyama & Toei can’t?
One thing I don’t see enough people talk about is the fact that goku pushed for the tournament of power when specifically warned by beerus and whis not to. As far as goku was aware, he willingly went out of his way to endanger his own universe and several others just so he can fight some strong opponents. He had no idea they’d have been wished back and didn’t stop to consider the ramifications at all. In gokus mind he was about to endanger literally trillions of lives just for less than an hour of fun.
Well, let's not be unfair. Whis and Beerus had no idea the stakes WOULD be universal destruction. They just suspected it could be something big. Goku (having spoken with the Omni king before) thought he knew the stakes wouldn't be big. And he was right, the omni king never wanted to destroy all the universes over a fight. He was testing the moral character of the winner to bring the losers back.
@@scinary7052 Not to add the fact that they basically said "If goku didn't suggest the tournament we would've just deleted all involved universes without chance to save themselves". It's a bit hard to follow the 'Goku endangered the multiverse' train when the plot says he didn't
@@boltskyline2957 He acted out of greed, so what? While I despise DB super "goku", according to the plot his greed saved everyone. If I were to blame anyone I'd blame the plot, maybe even who wrote it. I feel like they needed a reason to move the story, while keeping goku free of guilt. And that bull is what they came up with
What's even worse is that they made Goku want to be friends with the same person that not only killed his best friend but also killed he's and piccolo's entire race
Well he figured with Vegeta who pretty much had a hand in the namekian death rates, he might have a chance with Frieza too. I guess thats what they believed
@Snake Hammer He did believe thT until he saw that there was no changing Freeza. Freeza returns with the purpose to kill them all again and even almost killed Gohan and yet Goku thinks "sure I'll let him go and train. I want the best fight" huh
>.> both Piccolo and Vegeta were murderous villains who later became Gokus friends... Piccolos father killed both Krillin and Master Roshi... where the fuck are you getting this shit.
Remember Vegeta's speech in Z about how Goku surpassed him because he fought for others while Vegeta primarily fought for himself? Well it feels like the roles have reversed. Only the writers are all seemingly unaware of what they've done. It's particularly amusing that Toriyama is giving the character he hates good character growth while shafting the main character
Dragon Ball accidentally making Vegeta a great character is basically the plot of the show. Thats why I feel like he is the main character in DBZ. His arc is far better than anyone elses.
Truly ironic. Much mess as Toriyama gives Vegeta and tries to make him look bad and weak, he unintentionally makes him more human, and that’s why his moments when he helps the main characters more powerful, because even in weakness, he still never gives up. The character is a great inspiration to me as well. I sadly can’t say the same for modern Goku.
I often have this feeling that the problem is that Toriyama these days no longer has to deal with a strickt editor on Dragonball. Like Toriyama ones said that he wanted Goku to not be a hero but rather selfish this means that ether he forgot how he use to write goku or that it was his editors that forced him to tone Goku's sillier and more selfish traits down.
I actually think it is the opposite issue, Dragon Ball has became such a huge IP that anything new for the franchise must be approved by a number of editors, investors, directors and marketing departments. Everything has to be profitable, which results in everything being safe, sillier and kid friendly. I can't tell for sure if that's the case, but I can't help but think so
@@LucasMalaquias I would daub this for a couple of reasons. For one the earliest signs of nearly all of supers issues can be found in the Boo arc a story line known for Toriyama only agreeing to do so if the Editors would dramatically losen the grip on him. You know issues like build ups with no payoff, new ultimate forms every other moment (yes I know the Cell arc also had this but at least were with all but 2 of them made clear that they were failures to begin with and so came off as far more purposeful red herrings compared to Super) and Characters acting far goofier again like this was really early dragonball again. It also was properly the first moment were we got hit with GOD overload. Than is it also known about Battle of Gods which started the degradation of Goku's character and the repeat of lessons (in this case the old one from Muten Roshi that there is always someone stronger than you out there) was originally going to be far more like the older Dragonball movies until Toriyama himself got involved and made many noteworthy changes including the ones that lead to Super's repeated issues. Resurrection F the final step to super that has the whole "Goku gets knocked out by a laser pointer" issue and had Freezer's power grow a stupendous amount in just 4 months was also fully Toriyama written and in part only exist because Toriyama wanted to do something with Freezer again after he heard the Freezer tribute song "F". So yes I do think the root cause is a lack of editorial constrains on Toriyama we do know that his editors in the past had no issue shooting down dumb ideas (and in case of the Artificial humans did 1 continue to do so after he stopped being Toriyama's editor) Toriyama is ultimately a comedy writer that needs a guiding hand on logic in fights and to not derail characters for the sake of his beloved comedy by an editor. So while I don't think all problems come from it so do I think that if Toriyama would have more opposition like back in the 80s and 90's would at least some of Supers issues especially concerning regressing goku properly not have happened.
Comparable is that's kinda what happened to Star Wars Episode 1. Nobody was going to question or get in the way of the guy that made the most successful movie trilogy. So The Phantom Menace was George Lucas unleashed. And we got problems out of that. (Of course we now have witnessed lower standards making us say it wasn't so bad)
Goku was always supposed to be jovial and silly… but then they contrasted it with him getting serious and smart when fights started. They dumbed him down too much to where it’s not funny but almost annoying at times, and they took away a lot of his seriousness during a fight/something serious going on. Similar thing happened with Sora from Kingdom Hearts
He matured. Last time he was like in Super was before his mariage with Chichi. He became a dad and took responsability. Meanwhile in Super he doesn't even know what a kiss is lmao
@@ZERARCHIVE2023 he still had jovial/silly/naive moments. Like on snake way how he doesn’t realize what they’re trying to do. His vibe is usually carefree though apart from fights. But yeah, it’s nowhere near the level of Super
@@lovesgibson IDK this isn't canon, never appeared in the manga lol He was less naive as soon as he died against raditz. A massive shift to his character happened for the better, the anime made him more emotionnal but in the manga, he was running at top speed to go asap to KingKai.
I'm not a fan of Goku's characterization in Super either but, let's be honest, Toriyama forgot Launch existed. Not realizing he was rewriting his old stuff isn't out of the realm of possibilities.
Look what they did with my boy. 😭 That was a very deep analysis of Goku's character. It's sad how Goku was flanderized on Super, I know that they need to have a character that needs to grow, but instead of regress it, they could have find some way to make it evolve more, I mean, Goku was already a master as a mortal, so they could have took the way of this complete master trying to challenge the gods, tooking what he already learned with him as some sort of experience that would make him a special fighter among them. Super would be way more insteresting if we had that mature Goku from Buu Saga that already learned that his love for the fights isn't the most important thing.
Yup they really took the easy way out with Goku, kept Goku as the main protagonist but chose to regress him instead of being imaginative with the way he could grow.
I know man I hate coming across this breed of individuals who say dbz Goku and dbs Goku are the same. No the fuck they aren't anyone with a functioning brain and corneas can figure that out. They massacred my boy 🫦🫦🫦.
Thing is if they were gonna go the regression route there were far better an more creative ways to go about it.. maybe he catches an alien magic virus that ages him up so he get humanized in a way. Maybe he gets sent to a different dark dimension an has to find his way back home. Or he goes to a different plane of existence where his “power level” is essentially reset an he has to start back from square 1.. maybe an opponent can’t beat him so he does the next best thing an sends him to the furthest farthest parts of the outer edge of the galaxy maybe an undiscovered part.. where the air is super thin.. like it’s be up in the clouds or up a mountain..It’s always dark an it’s either Too cold or far too hot..for most beings to inhabit so hes tired like a regular human an there special alien/ predators adapted there so he has to //'mm constantly move without thinking😉 an his ki is a detriment cuz it’s sustenance to these aliens .. the critters constantly feed on his life force & Ki like mosquitos ants bedbug type stuff.. an once they get a sample they swell up in size an intelligence.. maybe get saiyan intincts an become power hungry an ravenous when they bite him savages addicted to his light energy. Some even adapt an no longer are damaged or hurt by ki attacks..like android 19 but naturally.. Or they get incalculably big i’m talking they’re so starved that 1 big ki blast like a kamahama wave has them growing to the size of a island or a mountain.. make there. an bro comes back to strong. cuz the gravity was like 850x earth. an the ppl there live Deep deep underground mega cities within an miles deep in stony near unbreakable mountains etc.. or on secluded cities on the top of the highest mountains underneath acidic lakes..
This makes me appreciate GT Goku more. Even though he wasn't from the official continuity of the franchise, he was still a badass and I loved how he didn't hesitate to kill his enemies to save the universe. That scene where Babi tried to escape, he ended him with the Kamehameha wave. I am sure if it was Super Goku, he would've let him go so he could train and come back for a fight. 😂
This. GT Goku actually followed after the End Of Z, Super Goku had some development post Z (well defeating Buu), but then it was all thrown away and he got worse. Btw the development I'm talking about is when he went ssg and hated how he got the power.
@PowerJolt72 Let's not act like GT Goku was any better, man regressed into a literal child both Physically and mentally with Trunks acting like the adult throughout most of the blackstar arc. And he was a complete moron in the Super 17 arc, where fired nothing but ki blasts the whole fight and was shocked he was losing. It took him until the very end of the arc for him to realise 17s very obvious weakness. So much for being a combat prodigy. There's other moments I could list off as well, but I don't want to be make this too long lol. All I want to say is that just cause DBS is bad, doesn't make GT any better as it suffers from a lot of the same issues Super does.
@@thegungerbrospodcast7671well technically isn't that kinda reversed since it's actually super that has the same issues gt has, plus even with goku turning into a kid and having somewhat of a mentality as one that's at least a good reason for him, what's super Goku's excuse because he was supposed to be like that, that's not even a good reason at all after what he has been through including with gt goku who would actually show some matureness, but one thing is the two do know how to strategize in battle but it would happen at the end, like the super 17 fight where you know the ki blasts actually worked for once at something by letting super 17 absorb that and using the dragon fist, but hey you are right both aren't better except for the ending which I'll have to give to GT since that one felt like a send off
You've vocalized a lot of the stuff I had a problem with in newer DB material real well. Characters who are capable of massively superhuman feats via martial arts should not treat something as basic as practicing moves till your body can do them without having to think like this utterly novel concept beyond the grasp of the average mortal. Stuff like that is the foundation of pretty much any physical activity from sports to playing instruments, let alone fighting. Like what's next, is Goku gonna learn how to breathe steadily while fighting in the next arc? Will he learn to better conserve his energy by discovering the mystical world of aftercare?
It would have been awesome to see Goku take on a master role and train future generations of fighters instead of being an actual man child. His best moments are when he changes from his easygoing and carefree attitude to a serious warrior ready to throw down
In the anime version of Goku recruiting people for the T.O.P. one of the ways that Frieza sweetened the deal for Goku to agree to wishing him back to life was the chance of him training to become even MORE powerful than Golden Frieza. So, I was scratching my head at the start of the Broly film when Goku acted surprised when Vegeta called him dumb for not thinking Frieza would power up further and take his revenge (Black Frieza anyone...). Which to be fair, Beerus was the one who instructed Whis to revive him so...
frieza played a heavy role in the ToP at the end, and look at the choices, promise to revive frieza if he helps the team win and not get the universe erased. or not recruit frieza and make the risk higher that the universe gets erased. at that time goku went with the best option.
@@georgeDeming That's not the issue The issue is that Goku initially agreed to it because Frieza said he could get stronger, then later Goku is surprised when told Frieza could get stronger. See the problem now?
I think people idealize Akira Toriyama. Dragon Ball Super is a perfect exemple of what he can do alone. Kazuhiko Torishima, Akira Toriyama's first editor, was the one that made Dragon Ball (and Dr.Slump) successful. If you ever want to know what Dragon Ball would have been without Kazuhiko Torishima, try to find "Dragon Boy", it's what Toriyama originally submitted. Kazuhiko Torishima added several characters like Kame-Sen'nin and Kuririn, he created the Tenkaichi Budōkai. It was his idea to focus the storyline on fighting, and he pushed Akira Toriyama to create more serious villains like Piccolo and the Saiyans. He even made Arale the protagonist of Dr.Slump (instead of Dr.Slump himself).
@@MetalHopper I don't know. I think the alchemy of both of their minds was what gave Dragon Ball it's magic. I think Kazuhiko Torishima is a good advisor, but not always right.
Totally agreed. DBS is only the proves Toryiama is a perfect moron, just like he pictured Goku there. I didn't know that there was another brain behind DB and DBZ, but it perfectly makes sense now. DBS is so weird I cannot even find a reason to elaborate a critic on it. He just made the unbelievable that is, to make DBGT the "wished continuation". I grew up with DBZ and loved (and still love it) from deep of my heart. I will say to my son he should not take DBS and DBGT serious and should consider that the saga ends on DBZ.
@@leandrogomes7738for the show Toriyama only gave pointers, the writing of the show was primarily by Toei animation and the manga primarily by Toyotarou, the movies are the only things that can be said was Toriyama alone.
Dragonball Super is not canon. Its a badly written fanfiction and proof that Akira Toriyama should have just let Dragonball Z be the end of the series.
Don't mess with us dragonball fans, we lost some of the most integral and important parts of not only the characters, but plot and story from the creator of the anime itself. Now we struggle to fight for an anime we still love, can you really blame us .
Dragon Ball fans are some of the most low brow people in existence. You're not fighting for anything, because Goku was always an air head. End of story. Yall are literally the fandom that thought Broly was in the robot in the Universe 6 Tournament. 🤣😂
People overexaggerate what happened to Goku‘s character and Goku has always been pretty fucking dumb I mean come on now you can’t give me no moments where you were actually like look how smart Goku is and that’s from pre-dragon ball z like it’s kind of weird Dragon Ball Z fans always find something wrong with Dragon Ball Z and that’s the whole problem with our anime now today it’s the fence it’s not toy animation it’s not Toriyama it’s the fans Goku has always been a dumb character in the beginning of the saiyan saga he let go of raditz tail because he was naïve or sympathetic which is something that’s honestly just dumb as hell given the fact that the man literally just kidnapped your kid😂😂😂😭 it’s not like this is some sad anime like Naruto where Goku as a kid was sad about his family it was never that case googles always pretty dumb and pretty happy go lucky that’s the kind of character he is you guys are just getting mad because in super they add more plot in a lot more dialogue and a lot more moments for Goku to be done rather than see it was a lot more fighting and a lot of people who watch Dragon Ball Z grew up on Kai if you watch Dragon Ball Z Kai than you know exactly what I Mean
I only just recently went back and watched Dragonball from beginning to end properly. I finally understood when Goku changed and how. After his training with Kami and Mr. Popo, he exudes this mysterious aura ever since then even through out dbz. He had this new spiritual awareness that you could see in his body posture and mannerisms. Like you could just tell he could sense things others could not hence the mystical aura about him. In Super, this was all gone. It was like seeing kid Goku pre-Popo era all over again.
He literally grew up during Db. It was amazing. I had never seen anything like it in cartoons/anome before. The mc grew up like I did..i was a child watching DB and only later on in my teens did i manage to watch DBZ. It was beautiful.
He also stopped his education. If it wasn’t martial he didn’t learn it. I seriously don’t think the modern goku knows how to do math or write and if he dos it’s definitely not higher levels
@@kevind3974 "I never let my schooling interfere with my education." -Mark Twain DBZ Goku is so much more sensible (both intellectually and spiritually) than most of the so called 'educated' people. In Dragon ball, Goku's entire journey was his education. He just doesn't have a dumb certificate to show for it. The schools that we have today are indoctrination chambers which was built to churn out factory workers. The nonsense that happen in school isn't education, it's just conditioning, it's not about love for learning but passing exams. When children are happy to get sick so that they wouldn't get to go to school we should understand how messed up school is.
@@nexuscross3233 Ya in DBZ. were talking Super here boy, your arguments just went down the shitter just like his iq did and before you do the usual "thats not DBZ" or "my DBZ" argument you dragon ball stans love to do. stop lying to yourself its fuckin canon. goku got dumb as a brick and just in all honesty became an absolute shit of a man because he fell to an addiction to fighting its like boruto, the story should have ended years ago, but they saw money and didnt care about cherictor anymore
When the first Ultra Instinct form was being shown off during the TOP, I was really excited for it because it was teasing a return to form for the character to his martial arts routes and channeling all those years for technique and battle experience into a new power that built upon that rather than SSJ genes and new forms with bulging muscles and longer hair. I was also hoping that it would slowly reawaken the more mature side of Goku we lost since Z and seeing how serious he was in UI form, it fed into that hope even more. But alas, I stood corrected.
@CAGE_1 mistare fusion, but I like what you're contributing to the conversation over Mistare Fusio 😅 . MS is just informative and good for context . You are bringing hope back to the community (Ultra Instinct isn't canon) Keep up the good work guy !
@@hue_jazz59 no, if watch constantly his content, and you really claim to be the "intelectual type of guy" that you claim you are, you should know that firstly, yes, power levels are something really important and essencial in the DB universe and secondly, no, Saiyan Scholar is a channel that mainly analyse deeply the narrative of the Dragon Ball universe, dissecting characters, arcs, etc. And yes, he is probably the most intelligent individual when it comes to analysing Dragon Ball in general.
Tbh this still isn't a good excuse for goku's character regression. There was infinite possibilities for goku to retain his master rank and mental capacity for a modern audience without butchering his actual development. Not everyone mc needs to be hella stupid for the audience to like em. Like for example we could've explored goku as a martial arts teacher for the next gen. Show him developing his own teacher-student dynamic. Then near the end have goku make them a master. Or even have him explore his sayian heritage more with vegeta after finding out about their god forms. These guys are just playing it too safe at this point, they're scared to take simple steps.
do you know what happens to boxers after years of boxing? or any person in any sport full contact? head injuries happen, the longer you do said sport the more injuries to the head you get,, the higher risk you take of mentaly regressing like goku, its medically proven fact, the more your brain jiggles around and bounces around in your cranium the less braining its going to be able to do. that is why goku regressed.
I can forgive Toriyama for ruining Goku. But I can't forgive anyone for producing Dragonball super. That was a very pathetic show. Especially how they redesigned Broly. That was cringe worthy.
I feel it would have been better to have seen the struggle Goku would slowly face, feeling calm with his power, but slowly beginning to lose the race over time, eventually realizing he doesn't have enough, and through that desperation and anger, is what prompts the beginning of the god ki forms, allowing Goku to continue growing and developing without completely ruining his character
Toriyama _used_ to be an amazing author in his creative prime. But that prime ended right around the time DBZ ended. Sometimes, that's just the story of our lives. We mature, become great for some time, and then wither away. Toriyama has spent all his shells - that's all there is to it. Can't blame the man for losing his touch with a project from the last century.
@@yareyarejose5080 It was a joke. The Joke was that because Goku mirrors Toriyama becoming rusty, it is, in a way, Like Toriyama secretly crying for help.
@@SkoomaGodDovahkiin666 how? toriyama didnt have complete creative control during dbz- the frieza saga and android saga turned out the way they did due to his editor telling him not to do this or that, while he had far more control during the buu saga and most fans consider it a disappoinment. he was never as passionate for the series as most fans make it out to be, the only reason why super is a thing is cuz he didnt want evolution to be his project's final legacy. if you want toriyama's actual passion projects that aren't motivated by spite, check out sand land and dragon quest. if anything Goku's characterization in super seems like what he always intended- just look at how he married chi-chi in the original dragonball. a lot of the more serious stuff that fans clamor for, like the history of trunks and the bardock special, are things toriyama admitted he would never make, lol.
I find it funny the Monkey Kid's portrayal of Sun Wukong is basically what Goku should be at this point. Heck, I wonder if Sean took on the role to play this kind of character, as well as circling back around to the character that inspired Goku
Bro thank you for putting it into words. I see so many ppl talk as if Goku was always like this in the "original japanese dub". But no, he's literally regressed so hard in Super. Its so ridiculous because Goku was a fighting genius.
@@CAGExplains a better writer definitely would’ve found a way to write Goku truer to his goofy self from the manga WITHOUT regressing him to whatever he is now literally “forgetting” things he’s already done/grew from.
I remember someone called Goku's "Hey, we are living in peace on Earth" from SBroly movie amazing character development. Like he learned that he is too powerful and should be careful during fights. I didn't even want to argue, it was unbelievably stupid take. Take that got around several thousands of likes
He's not regressed at all. Goku is supposed to be the way he is in Super, not like he is in Z anime. It was never implied that he mastered what Korin, Popo and Muten Roshi taught him. They didn't master those things themselves entirely. All those teachings accumulated and resulted in Ultra Instinct.
I'm not a Super fanboy, and years before Super came out, I argued Goku is far from a fighting genius. Fans love to make excuses for him, but letting go of Radditz tail? Letting Vegeta Transform into an Ape? Letting Freeza transform when he has mere moments to escape? Leaving Imperfect Cell alive to fight him later? Forgetting how SS3 works and trying to summon a spirit bomb while using it? Goku just wants to fight and goes head first into any scenario and gets rocked often because of it. Besides the point that being a "fighting genius" is irrelevant with power scaling, since a total dummy like Fat Buu can simply be stronger. Technique didn't mean shit until DBS.
Goku has always been goofy, but this is next level. Power creep is always an issue, and franchises usually fail at handling it. They keep scaling to the point of absurdity, or in this case dumb down and regress. Neither work well. That's the problem with not tying off a franchise. If they don't end, they get stupid.
next level? the issue is y’all never understood goku’s character in the first place. Do yourself a favor and go watch z in Japanese or read the manga. he has the exact same “goofy” voice tone, actions, and personality as he does in dbs. even in the earky episodes, when he first sees king yemma he literally wanted to fight him be he looked strong and kami had to tell him to behave. it’s never changed because it’s goku.
@@leultrainstinct406I watched original Dragon ball and DBZ in Japanese and I can tell you that Super completely butchered his character. Take a watch yourself again and you'll realize how different Goku is. Z Goku never blindly asked for fights against strong opponents because he understood the consequences. He had flaws in Z too, but they made him interesting as a character. He was too kind hearted and often spared his opponents because he believed that even the worst of villains can be good inside and also because he wanted to fight them later for his own selfish reasons,. But he understood the consequences and always took responsibility for his actions, that made him badass and somewhat relatable and likeable. In his sacrfice against Cell, he apoligized to Gohan for being selfish and doing what he always wanted, that's more mature and heartwarming than anything Super Goku had ever done. And that's the Goku I know and love, a flawed hero which you can relate with. In Super, he's just a total idiot who acts immature and childish.
I think the fandom also had some influence...unintentionally. I think Goku being acting stupid, forgetful or not caring for people's interests at times, stems from the jokes inside the community, such as with DBZA. This wasn't something we actually wanted, but it was more of an inside joke. I feel like what Toei and Toriyama did was act like that friend that tells everyone else the joke and has their own spin on it, but it gets ruined.
I feel the same way and it's something that isn't talked about enough. I was never all that into anime except for a few shows and I can only really compare this to Hellsing with it's "Abridged" version. It was sorta funny at first but eventually lines are crossed and everything just becomes a parody of itself. Let's not all pretend we haven't seen it in movies or TV too
This is what happens when you have "dragon ball fans" saying that DBZA is better than the original. Literally almost every DB video I watch on UA-cam all the comments are basically lines from DBZA. So they were probably thinking they'd get the same attention if they kind of went a similar direction which is ridiculous.
DBZA had some interesting takes and in some aspects did things much better than Toriyama did with his writing, but randomly changing Goku to seem like the version portrayed in TFS' abridged dub just makes no sense.
@@soullessginger9912 The issue with that thinking is that DBZA works BECAUSE its a parody. Its only funny because DBZ's tone is super serious. It doesnt exist in a vacuum. Trying to copy DBZA just made DBS a parody of itself. Its technically really good writing but doesnt follow the "rule of cool" so it falls on its face. There are a lot encounters in DBS that boil down to "what if these two characters interacted in their stereotypical fashion as denoted by DBZA"
Thank you for documenting all this. I feel like people like to ignore the blatant character assassination because they just want new dragon ball. But the long time fans truly deserve better than seeing their main character disrespected so heavily.
@@agnuswulf i swear to god those people are dumb as hell. Goku was naive but not outright mentally disabled retard like dbs tries to portray him to be. One example is in dbs he's so dumb he can't even tell beerus in a monaka outfit this is the same dude who was able to tell kami when kami took over some random human body back in dragon ball (piccolo jr saga).
People say that Goku’s character is assassinated but then they don’t bring up any real fax or any real evidence behind it in the first five minutes and 47 seconds of this video this dude has not given me a single actual fact instead he started bringing up old Dragon Ball and saying that Goku learn from Komi and Popo that they will always be a stronger enemy so he treats his enemies with respect they said that in the first part of the movie he tried to claim that Goku‘s character regress because he paid no respect to freezia Dude with bringing up pieces from the Monga and then coming up with his own conclusions but not saying anything that’s actual facts except for the one part of Goku being surprised that freezer was gonna come back stronger that’s the only thing dude said Goku forgot he was a martial artist where just because you pulled up a scene where he said he needs pure power when he was fighting hit and hit was freezing time so he needed to break through hits time skip the power up it’s so weird that Dragon Ball Z fans are watching this video and they’re not putting the shit together themselves and that’s coming from a Naruto fan
I've legit heard "Goku is a good learner, but a bad teacher". It makes me think of two things and they're eqally bad imo Either Goku failed Gohan's attainment of SSJ2 in the time chamber because he couldn't teach him well enough Or Goku is carried so much by his inherent ability to absorb knowledge that he's overreliant and could never actually analyze a situation if it doesn't include his direct involvement
I like the idea of whis training a wise goku. It ties into master roshi’s lesson of “someone always being stronger or more skilled”. Too bad they decided to make him a child while learning
It always made me wonder Where did the smart Goku from the 23rd World Tournament go He was very strategic and managed to deduce others technique in the middle of a battle and even thought of ways to counter them easily Heck even telling their flaws
He’s still their, does nobody remember, Goku countering hit, using his friend’s techniques strategically to get an advantage over Jiren. Analyzing freizas flaws
@@calvinjohnson948 honestly everyone here seems to just only watch filler of dbs and completely ignore all of his actual cool moments, like the multi destructo disk, blue kaioken, his rage against black for killing goten and chichi, his rage against jiren for threatening his friends
@@definitiverandomvan a few moments don't make up for it when the essence and progression of the character has disappeared. Goku is good at fighting? Big deal, he was a tactical genius since day one. It's more about how he carries himself and deliver those lines to others instead of being giddy 24/7
@@definitiverandomvan Seems like "everyone" here forgot to watch the video. Because this was literally discussed in the video, it's only a handful of instances where glimpses of Goku's characterization was seen, emphasis on handful... (0:36)
To be fair though, in GT Goku was really relaxed and was carefree like super Goku, but the difference is the fact that GT Goku at some point started caring when baby had him beaten and weary. Super Goku has yet to go through this type of growth which adds to the characters regression as a whole, and it's sad to see 😭
@@crestofhonor2349 well to be fair, in GT Goku knew that the next generation had the potential to succeed him which is why he was so relaxed and carefree but seeing the earth while defeated made him realize that there's something he needs to protect. The same can't be said for super since Goku and Vegeta save the day every time, and Goku regressing is a consequence of this. An event that makes Goku get really serious would boost the series in my opinion since the end of z is approaching.
My explanation for Goku having to “relearn” martial arts is that in a way it’s an acknowledgment of a common criticism of Dragon Ball: that once power ups like Super Sayian became a thing, power became much more important than specific martial arts skills. Ultra Instict is like realizing the two could just be stacked one onto the other. One could even push the head canon to say that Goku “forgot” the importance of martial arts once his power level became such an important factor in his victories. Now, I’m sure there’s plenty of moments in the series that directly contradict the notion that skill was irrelevant in all the previous victories, but even then it could be argued this is akin to reintroducing the concept yet again, which I suppose is relevant.
I interpret Goku's last attack with Freeza differently. Not that he wanted Freeza to be good, but he wanted Freeza to be humbled by the humiliation and spared because Goku already said he broke his Pride and he was getting weaker making their fight pointless to him at that point. ROF rehashes that and Freeza still doesn't learn but instead just thought he needed a better form and lost again, which for Freeza might be in his character to not get it which is why they are opposites. Freeza is ignorant to humility and Goku is supposed to be the better fighter because he leans it. Which is in Japanese culture post WW2. Vegeta for the longest time was always weaker than Goku while he was enraged with entitlement and ego. When he humbled himself enough to fuse into Vegito for the sake of Bulma and Trunks, thats when he technically stronger, which fits the theme. When Cell started to worry about being weaker than Gohan and got offended, that when he started to lose badly to him too. When Gohan was arrogantly fighting Buu, he lost. Humility determining who wins and loses in DB is pretty consistent to me. In just that theme. Its what makes Goku pure of heart as opposed to it just being morality.
@@thatitalianlameguy2235 He actually kind of didn’t since he didn’t wanna kill gero ,the androids or fat buu even tho he knew they were potentially evil
It doesn't change how stupid the freiza saga is and how stupid the whole series is really. Goku was a great character all the way up until after he turned super saiyan.
@@chrismcknight2250 Goku doesn't know Gero. He busted through Red Ribbon Army just for the Dragon Balls. He wasn't there to massacre soldiers and scientists like the fandom claims him was. Less is said for Android 17-18, because he gets heart disease and is out of commission. *Kami* is the one telling Piccolo not to go after the androids because the main characters have been the ones invading their home and antagonizing them in their attempt at proactive heroism. Goku does NOT perceive Fat Buu as evil. He considers him a clueless child who knows only what Babidi's been telling him to do. It's Piccolo once again who makes a big fuss out of the situation and claims him to be pure evil. Naturally Piccolo's proven wrong again when Mr. Satan single-handedly reforms Buu just by telling him that killing is bad.
Goku had already learned all his lessons, his journey was finished. Instead of Goku acting as a mentor for younger generations of fighters (while staying as an absokute powerhouse and increasing his strength) it was easier to dumb him down and have him forget all what he learned.
That's because Toriyama already tried replacing Goku once with Gohan, and that didn't work. So obviously based on his past experience, he couldn't have Goku mentoring younger fighters, because that would've caused everybody to hate Super by the same logic that they complained about Goku's prior passing of the torch.
The big problem with super is that its portrayal of goku was made as a response to seeing how the anime made goku way more heroic... But in turn overcompensated so hard that it completely forgot that goku being a good person was a critical part of his character in the original manga as well. hell, in the very first arc of the series, and one of his first defining moments was helping the sea turtle back to the sea withouth any bigger motivations than that it was the right thing to do. Goku's role in entire first arc overall, was to serve as the moral heart of the tale, wheras everyone else during the hunt for the dragon balls were selfish, he was selfless and a good person. And that continued through the series. Yes he was still very flawed and made very questionable decisions, and sometimes they blew up in his face, and sometimes not, but he was at his heart a good person. The moment of aparing freeza is probably the best example. Sparing vegeta was in the original manga a very selfish one... But the same can not be said for Freeza, who was begging for mercy and salvation... And goku gave it to him, because at his heart, he is a good person, even despite how much he realised it was a mindboogling stupid thing to do, his concious did not allow him to just finish him off, or leave him to die. Yes, goku's idiocy knows no bound in super, but i would say that charactervise, all of his original goodness(which was there in the original manga, even if toei amped it up to superman levels), was removed, leaving goku as a man who only thinks about fighting as his one true love and desire, and absolutely everything else(family, earth, universe, friends) second. And that state of mind is the source of all the problems haunting him as a character. The boundless stupidity certainly doesnt help, but its that lack of a strong core that defined son goku, and the simple fact is, its gone now.
I have 2 theories: - Toriyama is dead since long ago. They are using his corpse to generate money endlessly - Toriyama doesn't care. He is not involved. He doesn't check the stuff that happens. He is just swimming in his money like Scrooge McDuck.
Theory no. 2 What started as a work of passion became his primary source of apathy and is now solely worked on as a product made for the sake of its existing demand.
Akira Toriyama is mostly motivated by the comedic elements of Dragon Ball at this point. He’s not invested enough to craft a more intricate narrative with serious characterization. Which is why competent serious characters such a Goku and even Gohan are often reduced to the same gag repeatedly. But what’s more is that the same narrative beats about progression are also used over again. Akira Toriyama struggles writing completely straightforward and serious characters I believe this is why he replaced Gohan in the Buu arc. The more comedic elements of Goku allowed him more wiggle room as well as a the exaggerated attitude of Vegeta. Hence Gohan had to also be reduced to a joke, of forgetting his training multiple times. You will see a similar pattern with lots of DBZ characters.
While I agree with most of this Gohan never forgets his training he just dosent do it untill right before top where even in super hero he states he dose still train But Gohan dose not like fighting he dosent want to train nor dose he enjoy it
@ShirouBrando Gohan didn't like training, but he still did it growing up all the time because he understood his responsibility to protect earth and his family. It never sat right with me that Gohan would completely neglect training after Goku died. It implies Gohan is stupid and/or irresponsible that he figured no one stronger than Cell will show up, or that somehow magically things will work out if that happens even with Goku no longer around. And at least partially because Gohan slacked off earth was indeed destroyed by Buu.
@@regulator062 I completely agree. Especially after having access to SSJ2 and having the realization that sometimes you HAVE to fight...Gohan just stopping training makes zero sense particularly when you consider how intelligent he's supposed to be.
@@ShirouBrando "But Gohan dose not like fighting he dosent want to train nor dose he enjoy it" He definitely doesn't enjoy fighting the same way Goku does, but, however, I do feel the need to remind you that he became the Great Saiyaman of his own volition. Anything after the Buu arc is, well, you know. @regulator062 Honestly always assumed it was mostly arrogance and a lack of real interest in training, not really irresponsibility. He was like 18 in the Buu arc.
@@Deagle2751To be fair being the Great Saiyaman is less about fighting and more about just being cool superhero guy who helps people. The people he deals with are just rando thugs that I wouldn't even say he really has to fight as much as just easily manhandle. I wouldn't call restraining toddlers fighting for example and the difference between Gohan and normal humans is waaaay bigger than just an adult and a toddler. Basically Gohan is doing it to help people and do cool poses but him beating bad guys up is the means to the end. I don't think he started doing it because he liked fighting and wanted to fight I just think he started doing it because he knows he's so strong he wouldn't even NEED to fight in any real way but it would keep people safe. I do still think he's an idiot for not training even just an hour a day if he does in fact want to keep people safe even if he doesn't want to HAVE to fight.
What sucks is that I think there is still room for Goku to grow without the regression. During his life Goku has met all types of destroyers from the refined sadistic destruction of Frieza to the chaotic instinctual destruction of Buu. But Goku has never met a destoryer like Beerus. One who, while certainly not the nicest guy around, isn't necessarily evil either. Beerus destroys out of the necessity to maintain balance in the universe. I think it would've been a real moral quandry for Goku to see millions of innocents erased from existence for no reason other than "balance" Maybe the key to accessing god ki/Ultra Instinct could've been balancing the light and darkness in one's heart like how the Supreme Kais and Gods of Destruction are two sides of the same coin representing the light of creation and the darkness of destruction.
TFS in the Buu bits said that GT ruined Pan, but Super committed a crime that’s significantly worse, which is ruining Goku (Goku turning into a kid in GT was a nerf that I appreciated because it raised some tension, it didn’t ruin Goku’s mentality, and it made SSJ4 much more impactful). It’s that and also Super having no soul and general plan for long-term storytelling that makes the series worse than GT in my opinion. I woke up from the hype and realized that this franchise has become a shell of its former self, and that Super is such a blatant cash-grab that it’s no longer worth my time. Super is for the fans who think that Dragon Ball is great exclusively for the action, transformations, and explosions. But those aspects are not what make this franchise great, as well as other beloved, action, anime franchises like Naruto. As much as I like DBZA, its impact on fans ruined the franchise as well, because of TFS’ exaggerated changes, like Goku being an idiotic, bad father and the entire franchise having no stakes and consequences because of the existence of the Dragon Balls. DBZA is meant to be a parody, but there are stupid fans that think these changes are canon. As a result, the existence of Super adapted those changes that TFS left behind. This is why Dragon Ball Super shouldn’t be canon, because instead of it taking place in the original universe that Toriyama and Toei created, Super takes place in a different universe that’s similar to the abridged universe that TFS created.
I don't think Akira realized any of that, he probably just forgot he hadn't used those concepts in such a way before with Goku so he introduced them in his martial arts narrative without knowing he was retreading old ground.
No. Stop with this nonsense. Toriyama just likes silly stuff… he loves humor and he takes things in a very lighthearted way. He doesn’t identify with the serious tone of Z anymore. He prefers to tell stories in a way that is not that serious.
I'm going to be honest with you, I don't think Toriyama is as forgetful as people make him out to be. I genuinely think he uses it as an excuse most of the time to explain any plot holes or inconsistencies that arise from any changes he makes for convenience.
The storyline needs to reconnect with its roots in “Journey to the West”, if only thematically. If we saw more of Goku and Vegeta’s progression into disciplined and enlightened martial artists through meditation and peace, these wild power ups would make way more sense. They would also facilitate character progression.
Also, they could've taken a page from GT's book and copied one of its better traits: one of the transformations being the result of finally mastering the Oozaru for Goku, and requiring the acceptance of help from Vegeta. Granted it would probably be different in most ways, but using those overall themes would likely help flesh out the plot better. Goku's greatest weakness, the thing he has run from, is the Oozaru. Others removed it from him, and he has never shown any sense of wanting to connect with that part of his heritage. This could have even been incited by some plot which causes Goku to encounter Bardock, which would make sense since he was a warrior until that one side story Toriyama made made him into a scientist like that one translation error. However the tail could be regrown would probably be easy for Goku to accept, if he accepted the idea of accepting his heritage. Meanwhile, Vegeta would be disgusted by the need to ask for help, but tempted by the opportunity to reconnect more fully with his heritage, and be able to fully redeem that part of himself. The two would have opposing arcs towards the same result, making the two actually gaining the same ability be a thematically satisfying result, since both grew to about the same place in order to achieve it, just from opposing angles.
that’s exactly the direction they’re headed in. ultra instinct and ultra ego are the only forms in the entire franchise that revolve around goku and vegeta’s Character and their journeys. Yet like always y’all will still find ways to complain lol
@@leultrainstinct406 I mean, I personally love Ultra Instinct conceptually, but kinda hate that it's a transformation outside of the fact it's funny to mention in versus debates due to how absurd it is. It was conceptually introduced not as a transformation, but as a fighting style, which was in fact based on the perfection of one's muscle memory, the ability to fight without thinking, which is the stated end goal of most martial arts. It's cool as a fighting style, but having it be a flashy transformation robbed it of its worth, and just made it another powerup but with a slightly greater emphasis on small dodging motions. Ultra Ego meanwhile is fully out of left field, no explanation, and while I don't hate it as a contrast to Ultra Instinct, it suffers from the fact Ultra Instinct is a powerup at all, because it means in terms of power Goku and Vegeta are still close. Ultra Instinct, structurally, is martial arts. It is perfection of technique to the point you can outdo any stronger opponent. Ultra Ego would be much better if it were the opposite in more ways than just "tank the hits rather than dodging" with it instead forming from a focus on drawing out your own raw power, and focusing on that regardless of any technique you might lose along the way. It is executed alright, but what it is contrasting with makes it worse than what it would be if UI was just a fighting style so good that Goku was able to actually outplay stronger opponents consistently enough to win, power discrepancy be damned. Also, the manga version of Goku gaining the technique from focusing on all he had learned from his earlier mentors, while a bit less grandiose than what it could be, is better. The fact Goku wasn't just raw powering against Jiren there the whole time, was better. But then the Moro saga version of the form was more focused on the power in some respects, which forced it back from where it could've been if the fact Goku just fights better now had been the focus (also the form itself, while not terrible, is unnecessary. Have Whis say that in mastering the style he was able to unlock the ability to transform into a form that can use a small amount of angelic ki if you want a new form to go with it. Have Goku be perpetually that good at fighting, no matter what form he's in, because that's what learning a fighting style should be, which is what Ultra Instinct is supposed to be based on how it is described pre ToP.)
To add to this, paraphrasing a quote from Toriyama saying he hated how they portrayed Goku in the Z anime as the righteous hero and ignored the certain "toxic" aspect of his character of how he ultimately relishes the chance to fight strong opponents regardless circumstances. Maybe this was his way of making sure that they didnt make that same mistake again.
To be fair a lot of toriyama's takes seem to be unpopular. He wrote the minus version of bardock but everyone likes the bardock special. He wrote android 19 and 20 to be the main villains of the android arc but his editors changed it. He even wanted db to be mostly like the first arc but was again made to change due to the first arc being a flop. It is scary that now his takes are being followed without any editing.
@@Buzz956 I have no doubt that Toriyama himself makes alot of poor decisions. I think many of these great creative minds need people around them to keep their ideas in check as to what is actually best. Another comparison is Hideo Kojima, created some of the greatest games made IMO, but as soon as he was given too much control over his own projects without anyone to oppose him on dumb decisions or nurture the good ones, it very much began to negatively impact the quality of his games post MGS3.
@@orangeslash1667 a friend just told me about 40 minutes ago, very sad day. Without Dragon Quest and Dragonball, so many other things wouldn't even exist.
Thank you for addressing this. Toriyama may have had a problem with the focused and heroic Goku (dub dialouge aside Goku was always pretty damn heroic and stood by his friends and family) but Super is a crime. Made me look back at GT and say, "maybe I was too hard on it".
Thanks! I'm glad you appreciated the video 🔥 At the very least I can say the design for SSJ4 Goku is better than all of Goku's new Super transformations
Gt was hella stupid I'ma be real with you. The characters were wasted the series could have literally ended by baby just taking over Goku's body but he didn't. He had multiple opportunities. The black star dragon balls existing made no sense and don't get me started on super 17. When hell opened up where was Broly? Cooler was there like dude wtf. The ending was fitting tho and i liked most of the shadow dragons but it still can't save the show
@IkariSonBroly Oh, GT was a goddamn mess. The black star dragon balls were cool in concept, but made little sense. Like everything else in the show but at least Goku was still the guy we knew and loved. I had to give it that much. That and I always thought the design for SSJ4 Gogeta was...kinda cool
You know how Super could’ve gone to keep an engaging story? Keep Goku the same mature, kindhearted martial artist he grew into while making the SSG form contingent upon Saiyan anger. You can have the Beerus stuff, have the prophecy, and have the five pure hearted Saiyans ritual, but then make the form’s very existence possible due to Saiyan anger. BoG ends basically the same way, but afterward, for the first time in his life, Vegeta starts surpassing Goku. Vegeta’s entire life as an anger-dominated warrior benefits his use of SSG. Goku’s entire life training as a calm, meditative martial artist actually hinders his use of it. Sure, he has anger, but he’s spent his whole life learning how to temper it. This makes Vegeta a legitimate rival again and gives Goku a huge obstacle to overcome. To achieve higher power, he seemingly needs to go against his training. This creates conflict. Vegeta is the one to get the win on Frieza. Future Trunks should’ve happened differently, but that’s a different topic of conversation. Then comes the ToP. This is when Goku can achieve a new level of power with UI while still retaining who get grew into as a martial artist. Vegeta can go his way. Goku goes his own way. And then for the Moro/Granolah stuff, it can be about fusing his heritage with his upbringing. Just spitballing, but at least you don’t sacrifice Goku’s character.
It’s bad writing at its worst. A wise and mature character doesn’t have to be boring if the story is good. Captain Picard from Star Trek TNG for example is a highly mature and competent character and he is beloved by millions of people and the show is fascinating. Mature characters can still face difficult situations. A show like Dragon Ball contains many characters that could be used to tell interesting stories. But unfortunately, most characters have been sidelined. Also, as Picard has put it: “It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness; that is life.” And so it could be with Goku. He should be put in situations like that. We could see him deal with loss, regret, or maybe we could see him win things other than fights. Have him face more complex challenges than "must fight strong guy". Dragon Ball Multiverse had fascinating stories, even though not all of them were centered on Goku. How did they managed that but Toriyama & Toei can’t?
Goku is literally the only manga protagonist who started his journey as a kid and actually grow up and still remain the protagonist of the story even as a grandfather. Also Goku didn't always wanted to have a sparring partner. When he fought stronger people his goal was to win. He didn't just want to strong opponents he wanted to defeat them.
Not just that, he knew what needed to be done. He was super serious in the Manga when it was on the line...which was ever fight unless it was a tournament match or sparring
That’s because all the antagonists wanted to destroy the planet, while in Super, the only antagonists that want to destroy the planet or have malicious intentions are Frieza, for obvious reasons, and Zamasu, and because of time travel and multiverse theory, it always had to happen. Everything else was either a tournament or Beerus looking for a rival
It's way simpler than people think. Toriyama is just a person. A person with flaws. He wants to quit the work of Dragonball but doesn't want to, or can't let go of the power that comes with it. Everyone wants him to keep making stories, or so he thinks. George Lucas had the same problem. So as a creator how do you fix it? He may be destroying his characters to get fans to ease off. He gets the best of both worlds. Die-hard fans will still have interest and buy products, while Toe will stop asking him to do more work.. He's probably deeply conflicted, not wanting to fully entrust a new writer who may do better than him. He's shooting himself and his fans in the foot.
I think the part that rankles me the most is the fact that eithe Gohan or Oob could have become the new protagonist had Toriyama been willing/able to, but rebooting Dragonball without Goku as the main character would be a risk that I don't think any publisher would want to take.
@@AngryJTWhat sucks is by the end he wasn't even too lame Toriyama just doesn't have the slightest clue how to write him so every opportunity he has to make him not suck he fails at and just resets all of Gohan's progress to being a consistent fighter. Bro had to relearn his potential unlocked form like three times in super and I'm just sitting here like "wait didn't we already do this...?" I want to say Toriyama did say Gohan was going to take over but then he realized he didn't know how to write the man as a believable protagonist. Because Goku's motive is I wanna fight lets fight we're going to fight which makes it dead simple to, ya know, get him in a fight and Gohan is...literally even slightly more complicated and the man just gave right up and went back to Goku before the Buu arc got into swing.
This just proves Dragon Ball Super is not a "sequel" to Z but a (soft) reboot of Dragon Ball series as a whole. Not to mention God-forms basically being recolors made for toy-sales
I think Goku would have been more interesting if the expanded on the idea from Battle of Gods; Goku coming to terms with the fact that he could not progress without others The idea that he's completely peaked without any form of assistance, and that he's unsatisfied with the fact that he himself can't get the power that he's been granted. I feel this idea pairs well with the T.o.P.'s major theme of Trust and Friendship, and holds very true to the ideal of Martial Arts, and even the first lesson Roshi wanted to teach his students in the second arc of the entire show. You could even couple it with Ultra Instinct, and have Goku trying every option to do something himself. A character flaw stemmed from dissatisfaction that he cannot figure out how to get even higher without cheat codes. This could have expanded into Goku training his base form to the point of Ultra Instinct, where his fundamentals and understanding in training merge with Godlike power, where Goku is able to take *himself* to greater heights using his own skill and power, and not with the God Ki that was handed to him. And all the while coming to understand that gaining help from others to attain self-improvement is not a bad thing, comparing his and Team 7's success against the hard-headed lone wolf Jiren, making even Jiren a more interesting character by comparison But no Goku has to not know what kissing is despite literally being kissed by Chi-Chi right after his proposal
It’s all really annoying because as you pointed out there are still lots of other Character flaws for Goku to develop that don’t step on his old growth. It might have been more interesting if Whis wrote on Goku‘s shirt. Goku notices it immediately as it happens but he is troubled by the fact that he is not fast enough to do anything about it. Maybe this isn’t as interesting of a development but it would fit his character at this point better. Alternatively Goku could notice it right after it happens and mentions it before whis can. At least it’s more consistent.
@@DaniG.German883 Fun Fact: The only reason why Dragon ball is still going is because Akira Toriyama hated Dragon Ball Evolution the film. Other wise Akira Toriyama would have ended the series for good.
Another huge aspect missing from the revival era is the inclusion of the rest of the cast. As DragonBall went on, the focus increasingly shifted towards only the strongest characters, and in Super it is only the Goku and Vegeta show. What made the Saiyan, Freeza, and Android sagas so great was the dynamics between the cast. Taking down the villain was a group effort filled with desperation, changing loyalties, shifts in power. Starting with the Buu saga, protecting the earth became almost a secondary concern, with the undo button of the dragonballs being over-relied upon. Remember how during both the Freeza and part of the Androids saga we didn't even have Dragonballs. New DragonBall is missing all of that.
Even DBZA had the courtesy to keep Goku a savant. He's meant to be a brilliant fighter and strategist, not a brute. It's why forms like the really buff Super Saiyan were rejected by Goku and Vegeta, whom had more experience, but used by Trunks whom just saw the numbers. Goku can still be aloof, but it needs to be offset with moments of genuine casual brilliance. Like, why _didn't_ Goku point out how repetitive the training with Whis was? He already learned all of this and never got Ultra Instinct before, so clearly there had to be something missing. But nope! Just undo his progress and have him relearn old tricks for the new powerup. We got merch to sell!
Fully agree on Oob. I am so sad that we will probably never get a Series with Oob as a protagonist. He would just be such a logical choice for a follow-up of Dragonball Z. Him being the reincarnation of Boo has a lot of potential for dramatic weight. Like maybe a powerup when Oob is confronting his shadow? We could also see Son Goku being a completed character and serving as a mentor. Hell, you know, it would be cool if Goku made sure that Oob learns the same lesson, Master Roshi taught him: There is always someone better. It would be interesting to see how Oob handles things differently from Goku or how their characters are similar/different.
Buu is such a nothing to the story in general it's not even funny. Beerus and Granolah/Gas have at least something to do with the Saiyans. Buu in the other hand? Not only he added nothing to the story but it was quite literally outclassed by Moro, another character that had nothing to do with anything but he was at least treating. Now Uub it's an even bigger nothing than Buu was. The fan base thinks Uub is so special because "Ohh he was evil and he reincarnated into someone good" when that's how Hell literally works in the Manga. Unless you're a special case like Goku, Vegeta when he was spared as backup if stuff with Buu were so escalate further and Frieza who's such a prick that he refuses to move on. Other than that every single soul that's been dead for a good while goes through the same process of reincarnation. Meaning Raditz reincarnated, Cell reincarnated (hence why they made a new one instead of using the old one) Bardock already reincarnated, meaning Uub is not special at all. The only thing King Yema (And Dende in Super) did was told Goku "Hey, buu's reincarnation is here, go say hi" and that's it.
@@diegomedina9637 The point of Uub was to become another successor that could help protect earth. One of the major lessons Goku learned during the Buu saga was that finding someone exactly like him to protect the earth was impossible. Gohan is strong but doesn't enjoy fighting like Goku, Goten and Trunks have a lot of potential but are still too young and have much to learn. Uub was created to become a pillar of succession and also cement a mentor relationship with Goku which would've been carried on into future works. Until DBS retconned it. Also Buu was pretty threatening, he murked/absorbed a lot of the cast, and kid buu even destroyed earth, going as far as to spin up to heaven to beat them all up again.
@@diegomedina9637if u think buu added nothing to the story, u REALLY REALLY did not watch that arc lol. All the characters tied to buu and the reason he even appeared in the first place.
You know... People often shit on GT for having bad story. And while that will be subjective, it didn't necessarily sacifice Goku's character to tell that story, just his age when he regressed back into a child. But he still had all the teachings, the skills, the foundation of being a martial artist who has been humbled and molded into a competent fighter and teacher to the next generation. Yes, Uub or Pan could have been the main protagonists, I will agree to that since that's usually the best option when a character has completed his story. But considering how people reacted to Gohan's ascension to main protag role, or in the case of Naruto to Boruto, how people took to Boruto like oil to water, it gives this mentality that "People don't like change". So of course the writers - either the GT writers or Super writers - aren't going to change protagonists if people aren't willing to accept change. So instead, something else had to give. With GT, it was Goku's age so it could be like the days before Z, when things were more simpler - essentially taking the Buu arc approach but extended; with Super, it was Goku's character. Basically, you have three pills: Red has you retire the main character in place of a new one (student or offspring) with qualities that may not be to your liking initially and going through the same or similar journey as their predecessor; Blue has you sacrifice the main character's character in order to force character growth that they had already went through, just with much higher stakes; and Green has you sacrifice the main character's age in order give a nostalgic feeling to days of old. You can only choose one, but which one are you more willing to accept? Me personally, I choose Red since its natural for a series to want to progress with a new protagonist and retire the old one as the central character while maintaining a main character role as a mentor figure to rely on or a father figure to have as support.
Good explanation on why I dislike DBSuper from the beginning. The one thing I don't agree on is the final conclusion. One Punch Man has already proven it's very much possible to write a battle shounen story with a protagonist at the peak of their power while still managing to keep things fresh and entertaining. Actually, Toriyama already had this stuff figured out way back in DBZ by just coming up with excuses for Goku to not be around most of the time until he was actually needed.
Dragon Ball could learn a lot from One Punch Man, ironically. Hell, the best part of Super Hero was the fact that Goku never showed up to beat the big bad for everyone. It was mostly about the secondary characters, the "next generation" so to speak. Give me more of that!
@@SomeRandomJackAss We didnt get too much Goku. We got too much dumbass. It made sense for characters to hold off the bad guys until Goku arrived back then but a majority of these guys are God level now so it wouldnt make sense. I'd prefer they just not make SSB lame as hell.
You are absolutely right.
GT may have made Goku a child physically but super made Goku into a literal manchild.
It's actually painful to watch sometimes, the fall of an anime icon in real time
Gt Goku - Body of a child yet acts like a wise mature veteran
Super Goku - Body of a mature veteran, mind of a child.
I find it funny how they parallel.
Duality of Franchises 🗿
When Vegeta calls Goku a clown and an idiot. He was talking about Super.
@@CAGExplains To me, Dragonball has been slowly degrading into slop. Imo this was visible during as early as the frieza saga with the biggest issue this series has: powerscaling. Followed up by it's characters and story
Seeing Goku mature from an isolated mountain kid into a mature martial arts veteran was one of the greatest privileges anime and manga ever granted to me. Seeing the complete regression and destruction of that growth is one of the greatest tragedies.
He is getting old he could be going senile 😂
TFS is to blame. DBZ came back because of their success at reviving what was a more or less done and dusted franchise. At least we are getting Tenkaichi 4
i agree, Goku was never meant to be dumb, just naive, i mean he lived in the mountains with no human contact after the one person he knew was dead, why would he know calculous or geopolitics?
@@shaunmichael2477 bro isn’t even in his 50s yet how?💀
@kalijahdaley7866 Maybe all the head trauma throughout the years is contributing to it lol
And then theres Gohans never ending cycles of discovering himself and unlocking his potential
Bro did a little training and got god ki perfectly written lol. But really they could have just said he got trained by another angel or something or some other god
@@supermegadong7597Fr 😂
Which makes it even more hillarious that we now know Toriyama only made Beast to please the movie's producers. He genuinely couldn't give less of a fuck about Gohan.
@@theelike4302he couldn’t care less about any character besides Goku. He was forced to give a fuck about Vegeta. Hell he’s forgotten half of his original characters
@@theelike4302 Akira Toriyama is Dead😭😭😭😭😭😭😭.
That scene in Super Hero drove me nuts. Goku's whole deal in Cell games was that he mastered Super Saiyan with Gohan by basically going easy and comfortable with it, where as Vegeta didn't master it because his training amounted to overworking. Now we have the opposite, a Vegeta who believes in balanced training(reasonable character development) and a Goku who just thinks the only training is going harder( regression)
💀
Damn damn damn
Well shit
Well the Vegeta part makes sense. He's gotten wiser as a warrior. The Goku part is dumb though.
Edit: Apparently I can't spell.
@@RossLemon its that Ned flanders shit
I always figured that Goku getting flicked on the head by Beerus permanently damaged a part of his brain, which is why he regressed his intelligence.
LOL😂
you know what, I gonna with that.
To me, it was getting revived by elder kaioshin and not coming back the same
Beerus destroyed part of his brain 😂
There goes Goku bumping his head again. Grandpa Gohan is rolling in his grave rn...
Tl:dw: Akira Toriyama nerfed goku mentally in order to write his story
>When your entire 14 minute video can be summed up in 11 words
It's over for my channel bro!💀😂
nah it's toyotaro's fault
GT Fandom laughing at you guys for giving our show a difficult time
@@roywempor8395nah bro idk if he makes the creative decisions I thought he just draws
@@albertthepeacock8020 wtf I love Gt. I'm part of the GT Fandom
In the original dragon Ball, Goku always came across as uneducated, rather than just plain stupid. He'd always show himself to be extremely smart when it came to fighting, because that's all he ever knew. This was especially true in Z, where he'd use his superior battle knowledge to outwit his opponents at times.
Sure, he was never the smartest under the sun, but he was never a complete idiot.
well yea he was a mountain kid?? jesus he was just naive in db and he has the iq of a rock somehow in super
When was he a complete idiot in Super?
Try to find actual proof that isn't an obvious gag scene. I'll wait.
@@Variethan with beerus and with zeno, he understood like how dire the earth's situation would be and even let himself stay dead just so earth would be safe, even in early dbz even though there were 2 strong saiyans, he wasnt excited.
but in dbs hes portrayed as someone who will fucking do anything to fight strong guys, also tell me how dbs isnt structured around the saiyans and had time for other characters
Goku's a case of being street smart but book dumb. Really knows how to throw hands, but can't win a fight of normal socializing to save his life (not for a lack of trying; just how many people are going to believe he defeated a galactic emperor on another planet if he brought it up?)
@@dalejhunter1Goku has more friends than the number of people you will meet in life.
His socializing is of a wide spectrum not some narrow range of urban socializing so that you can conform yourself to the demands of the so called "civilised society".
The worst part is that it's not just Toriyama. You can see both Toei's writing staff as well as Toyotarou are following the same footsteps in writing his character. It's weird to see Vegeta being more level-headed and less arrogant then Son Goku later into Super. I could understand if Son Goku softened up a bit and needed to take things more seriously since he still has that innocence to his character.... but no, they take it too far.
the worst part is dragon ball fans who have zero reading and comprehension skills to even understand all the development goku got in dbs.
@@leultrainstinct406 you are talking about kids
@@leultrainstinct406 goku got development in super? 🤣 if you don’t mind, tell me one time that gokus character actually developed in super. JUST ONE! 😂
the entire moro and granolah arc 😭?
to be short, the goku we have now is the best goku...to sell more merch. Not narratively the best written. They wanted what was basically a fresh shonen protag with how Goku is in Super. Doesnt matter if it erases his character and achievements.
Love to see someone acknowledged Toriyama's lack in writing, instead of defending him like a whiteknight.
Money ruins passion
he lost it after cell saga. being too lazy to write Gohan into his own character as a teenager, realising he was just going to write Goku again, and undoing the shift he had planned for the series was it for the series narratively.
@@corwinchapman8270 My theory is that toriyama just never was THAT good of a writer, he pushed himself to achieve what he did, then when he saw it was still going he gave up. Watching super made me think he wants to turn dragonball into dr slump.
@@corwinchapman8270for one he had to make a manga each week two gohan was actually boring, who wants to watch him study, he doesn’t have a real reason to fight :1
@@Benji_Jokjo that's the whole point. Gohan IS boring, his job as a writer was to get us interested in him as a person. Think about Goku in the original series, he was a complete bumbling idiot who most of the time was literally training or walking around instead of fighting, yet toriyama showed that you can have your cake and eat it too by making him charismatic and making his path to glory a sight to see.
The problem was that Gohan was not a bumbling idiot, he now had to do the same he did with Goku but with no excuses for him to make the same mistake 9 times before learning it.
It's not that Gohan was boring, is that Gohan was smarter than toriyama could write. Thus, he had to revert to good ol' Goku.
Watching Dragon Ball as a kid, where Goku goes from a naive kid to a respectable adult absolutely changed my life. Kids watching Dragon Ball Super were robbed of this.
Ive watched every single episode of Dragonball and Z, he was never a respectable adult. Where people get this shit from is hilarious.
@@Shiirow Actually he was respected by kami( the protector of the earth) when he defeated piccolo at end of show. Kami had great respect for goku and for turtle school. No he was never respected far and wide by normal people, but with who he has crossed path, they respected him
@@Shiirow you watched too much abridged
@@michaelstark8720 and they still respect him in super.
Well if they keep with it and it keeps going (in some form or another) won't they get the same progression eventually?
Thank you! When Goku didn't even know what a kiss was, I was like, "how can they regress him THIS much?!".
The dbs anime ended five years ago the dbs movies are a different canon altogether.
@@sydneyowusu3750 true, true... except for the fact that they're adapting the movies to the manga, so.. it's all the same canon
@@noahsylvester1754 well m the movies are being canon to the manga only not the anime, the dbs anime has been dead for a while now.
@@sydneyowusu3750 yeah i know, but the manga's canon is generally the only one that matters, and if the manga is going off of the movies now then movie goku and everything movie goku does is canon to the main canon story of dbs
@@sydneyowusu3750the manga Is trash anywaus unfortunately
Such a shame too. I really feel like Toriyama got this wrong. They could have even kept all his progress and then perhaps designed god ki in such a way that didn't quite fit the mold of Earth-like martial arts. Excellent video! I can't believe I missed how goofy it was to simply pretend Goku just didn't know what meditation was when that conversation could quite simply have been directed toward Broly.
Exactly, it should've been broly asking what Vegeta was doing, since he didn't know what meditation, much less ki control, was yet. And Goku was the one to explain what it meant to him, and how Vegeta is doing some "other type of training".
The meditation thing was retconned in the manga, and now Goku was just surprised that Vegeta was meditating.
@@lapplandkun9273It got retconned in the manga, Toyotaro and Toriyama changed it.
@@TipoIrritable Akira Toriyama is Dead😭😭😭😭😭😭😭.
It's actually crazy how the GT writers managed to capture Goku's goofy personality while also giving him the maturity that he obviously would have with the age and experience he has like significantly better than toriyama ever could have dreamed to do
I hate GT because of its story writing and pacing, but I’d be a fool to say that it doesn’t do damn well characterizing characters consistently with their Z counterparts.
Yeah but. It's almost like gt is, idk.. better
Dude when goku finally got serious against that whip dude in gt with as like there he is my boy. Or against general rildo mentioning majin buu. So badass
@@Watermelon_Man That's because GT was completely static. They just took the status quo from the end of Z, and didn't change a single thing about any of the characters 10 years later.
@@SaturnineXTS Nah they did. GT Gohan for starters. Goten and trunks as well. Vegeta changed as well. Some are subtle, some are big.
The fact that the idea that they could just make super a story with a different protagonist, like Gohan and Goten didn’t even pass through Toriyama’s mind just boggles my mind
It probably did, but I don't think he would wanna put in that much effort anymore after Z and how hard he worked on that series.
The way he leaves notes for Toei and Toyotaro to write is... kinda lackluster. And with movies, they're good, but I still can't help but feel like if he really wanted this could have been way better without having to repeat the same development.
It was all about the brand recongition, Goku being the protagonist has very strong nostalgic ties to people, Dragon Ball coming back without him as the face could've been seen as a risk by all involved.
Goku is dragon ball. It would make no sense for anyone to replace him ever since Dragon ball started it has always been about goku and think about it dragon ball is about fighting the next strongest opponents and getting stronger. Who in the series do we know that consistently fighting the next strongest opponents and gets stronger? It’s GOKU and we already seen how gohan and goten isn’t interested in fighting or even training so it would make no sense for them to be the main characters.
@@lukehall2255 Goten seemed pretty interested in fighting and training after his mom died before his very eyes, and Gohan was already supposed to be a protagonist after the cell arc, and even WAS the protagonist on super hero.
@@pitanga1724 but they don’t CONSISTENTLY train or fight goku does and goku doesn’t have to wait until someone dies in order for him to train. He trains cause he likes to get stronger and fight more stronger opponents
"All the way back in Battle of Gods"
why must i be reminded of my rapidly shrinking mortality
I don't understand why he felt Gohan failed. He's an extremely popular character and many people have yearned to see him rise to stardom. It would have been an easy answer and much room for growth in Pan and Goten. He made the choice to regress. But that wasn't his only option.
Gohan was no doubt the fan favorite by the time he fought cell, let alone dabura with his cool new outfit
At least he has an excuse. Goku is constantly fighting and yet he is regressing inch by inch that its like watching a man dying of a disease in a hospital bed. You can do nothing but watch as he gets ruined
goten is an absolute tragedy of a character. he was showing up to be goku v2 but just disappeared into nothingness. hell even bra had some potential as the female saiyan fighter alongside trunks.
He messed up everyone's Characters.
I know "Toriyama forgets" is a big meme, but it's actually scary how much this is also reflected in Goku himself lately.
It's less a matter of him forgetting more so one of him (and the casual viewerbase) not particularly caring, anything he does prints money so at this point why even bother with proper character development? Toriyama had already been checking out by the time of the Buu saga, so it was only natural that he would half ass his return to the series 20 years later.
Toriyama doesn't write his story down like most mangaka he simply just tells the story in his head, that's why he forgets and it's normal cause he doesn't write it down
Scary? I see you had blinders on from the very beginning. Toriyama has shat on characters throughout the entire story, whether its forgetting them, purposely doing nothing with them, or changing their character entirely. Its about time Goku fans opened their eyes.
@@PathBeyondTheDark Real, I still burst out laughing to this day everytime I remember what he did to Launch, or Tien and Yamcha, also I saw people complaining about dbs Goku regression since 2016 so this is nothing new, my problem with Toriyama when it comes to characters is much more about he straight up leaving them to rot and doing nothing with them than forgetting them (the only one I think suffered from this is Launch).
Bro has dementia
Thank you for this.
I think the most frustrating thing about the last few years, was all the gaslighting, of people saying Goku has always been like this.
But as you’ve shown, and with manga references, that’s not true. These are lessons he already knew.
He truly is being regressed.
the worse I've ever read, from Toriyama too, is that he considered his family as companions. Craziness at it's finest, considering even the manga has plenty of scenes in which he shows affection and dedication to his boy and wife. I find absurd that I have to read these things ruining the beautiful memory I have of those episodes which are a real thing and not just fan fiction material. And for what? Is not even fan service considering every DB fan prefers mature Goku than anything else. He of course is a bit clueless at times, but that's the beauty of him.
I think more and more people went back to watch Z or Z kai/the manga. The difference in Goku from Z to Super is nearly impossible to deny at that point.
Yeah it was ridiculous I stopped watching Super around episode 50 because I couldn't stomach him. I blamed it on the Abridged series. I actually think the Super writers watched that and got their own headcannon twisted.
However, I also am off the impression that Toriyama was not a writer for the Super anime (however was more involved in the movies)
@@JD-mz1rl Toriyama's just as bad as Toei, if not worse. I'd put Toyotaro in 3rd place because he has more instances of Goku acting mature when the situation calls for it. If you look at DBS' bonus pages where Toyo shows scenes of his which Toriyama redrew, you'll see he changed up all the expressions in the scene where Krillin got mad at Goku for hiding the truth about the Tournament of Power. In Toyo's sketches, Krillin and Goku both have concerned faces and it feels more sentimental. In Toriyama's (the final product), Krillin has comedic expressions and Goku's just blank as if the punchline is "that's our Goku, always messing up!". It's clear that Toriyama is long gone from taking DB down a wholly serious path like it was for most of Z and instead wants it to have the tone of a comedy-adventure in a setting of life-and-death. Basically, DBS is one big Gotenks series.
@@purerage7963 hmmm. It's odd, because I felt a difference in his portrayal in the first two Super movies vs the anime (and yeah he made a crucial mistake in the 2nd movie, but I thought that was overall not out of character because Goku is used to always needing to fight a stronger enemy, and for once he was legitimately overconfident because he didn't consider Frieza a true threat).
I get the draw to make DBS more like the original DB in tone, which I actually think is a good thing. But you can't do that by changing the core essence of what the characters are, you have to do that situationally. Goku has a naive heart, is not stupid, is not forgetful, and is a quick learner. After living with "real people" for a year or so in DB, his "ridiculous" stupidity is about all gone. To bring it back so jarringly was just too much for me, I couldn't continue with the series (I haven't seen the super Broly movie yet either)
Whats really funny is that this video is technically also a defense for why Goku reverted back into a child in GT. It imposed a new limit on him that he had to overcome with the growth he had obtained throughout original Dragon Ball.
a forced limit that came out of nowhere and used to create nonexistent tension. and above everything else, to milk the nostalgia fans felt from the original dragon ball which is why that entire first arc was a copy and paste of the original.
Except in GT it worked because it was a regression of his strength, not his character. And it was done in a way that was coherent with the story leading up to it, rather than inexplicably coming out of nowhere.
@gurvmlk if only we had GT Goku in Super
@@UnholyKaizen The funny thing is that back in the day, I heard people complain about GT making Goku too smart. Which really isn't true at all. All they really did was make his combat intelligence less subtle by having him more openly spell out what he was thinking, rather than leaving as much up to interpretation like they did prior.
Now we have the opposite, except there's no rationalizing it. Even the reason given in this video is just an excuse for terrible writing.
@@gurvmlk frfr
Goku doesn't look like a martial artist anymore,now his fights have random fighting movements and special ki attacks
dragon ball was never solely about martial arts even master roshi didn’t entirely focus on training martial arts instead training on other fighting things and mainly on ki blasts and training for a higher power level. Goku is an extremely skilled fighter NOT a martial artist. Goku has his own fighting style I don’t think martial arts were designed around a character with energy blasts, flight and the ability to vanish and reappear.
They didn't just do him dirty on his combat growth, but also on his regular life. Things like he not knowing Gohan's birthday when he was having such a peaceful life AND was shown how much he cares about Gohan as a kid (and an adult, too!), as well as him not knowing what kissing is (when he has been married for over 20 years and has had 2 kids by that moment of his life) is just ridiculous. You can say whatever you want about saiyans not showing too much affection, but he grew as a human, surrounded by human manners and culture.
ya... him has no clue what is pregnant make his relationship with Chi-Chi really weird....make you wonder if he even care about his family.
@@shikniwho7215 No, it makes you wonder what's going on with Toriyama or Toyotaro that they're writing ridiculous shit like this.
Except, he didn't really grow up around humans/human culture.
Remember, hit head as a baby, grew up on mountain with only grandpa Gohan, who died. Lived alone for a bit. Traveled the world on a scavenger hunt with a teenager with anger issues, never stayed in one place long, never received any formal education, traveled or trained in all of his downtime.
Eventually he marries another girl with anger issues and they live (again) in a remote mountainside. The only humans that ever had time to teach him to be human were Roshi and Chi Chi. I somehow doubt Roshi took time for non training things. His home was an island. And by the time he got married, the damage was done, and Chi Chi doesn't seem patient enough to educate against his ignorance. That last part is just a guess.
As for the birthday thing, remember: remote, isolated home, no job for either parent, no reason to track dates. I'D forget someone's birthday in that environment lol
Just look at him and chi chi in DBZ before Goku leaves to fight cell
He was completely different
While I agree with the overall sentiment, Bulma was the first girl Goku ever met, he thought her car was a monster. He didn't exactly grow up surrounded by human manners and culture. Regardless, the character assassination of Goku is a shame.
I was watching some clips of the Janemba movie, and I really liked how Goku first fought with kind of a silly attitude while testing the fat janemba, you know, the classic "I really want to fight this strong guy", but after the comedic battle, Goku immediately changed his demeanour by realizing how actually dangerous Janemba was, he gets serious and turns into SS3 to end the fight fast.
"You act innocent, but you're deadly"
Son Goku'.
Well, I can not drag a movie for 15 hours haha
But yeah I get you point and I love this movie
Fusion: Reborn is probably one of my favorite movies just because we got more serious Goku and his SSJ3 which was relatively scarce throughout Z and Super
@@crazyfriend2388 It's argued to still be 1 of if not the best movie
The end of that movie still touches my heart
"I should be thanking you kakarot" 😭
I realized when I was a kid by reading interviews before Super existed that Toriyama didn't care and didn't know why people liked his story. He made up the Super Saiyan form because he was tired of inking Goku's hair. He excelled at comedy but his editor made him do serious stuff, but his heart is not in it. It's one of those works that outgrew their creator and I'm sad to say, if there's a new golden age for the series it will only happen after he passes away.
he may as well forfeit ownership bruh cuz wtf is Dragon Ball daima
Well he did pass now
this was kind of fucked up lol
This aged kinda well…or not
This aged badly.
😅
I remember being called crazy and not-a-real-fan for saying this kind of stuff when the Super series was initially airing. Especially during the whole "What's a kiss" and "Oops. Forgot the Tag crucial for Evil Containment" debacle. Thank goodness you're here to put far more elegantly than I could now that everyone finally putting two-and-two together.
Same bro. Same.
I didnt like DBS from basically episode 1. I saw what was going on and sure enough now this video exists.
@@JarthenGreenmeadowI still don’t understand how Super took BoG and RoF and made them WORSE.
ayo my bad but u gotta admit that ultra instinct song go hard lmao
@@ElvisBeBack It really does
@@ElvisBeBackNothing compared to super saiyan theme.
Another good point mentioned, is that it would have made more sense for Broly to be the one to learn about meditation and calmness, because he is a character who isn't like that at all and it would be ironic for his character to control his rage this way. Why would they make Goku the one who pretends to not understand something he was taught instead of being the one to affirm Whis being right to a character like Broly? Or to Vegeta, a character who never meditates (at least in the anime). Broly and Vegeta should be the one learning this stuff. Not Goku. If anything Goku should be the teacher's pet in all this. Not the idiot.
Vegeta does meditate in his own ways. He just stands on a cliff and does nothing but think about destorying his opponents. Isn't that a kind of a mediation too.
@Kainos Teleos
Ah, visualization training, I remember when Krillin and Gohan did that on the way to Namek.
Exactly! Poor goku. I feel like Toriyama is just trolling everybody out of some twisted spite for some reason. I doubt he's being that forgetful or has gone crazy.
@Urban Youth broly isn’t evil though
@Urban Youth He's still not evil at the end of the Broly movie.
Without an editor to remind him what his series was, Toriyama has truly gone out of control
Yeah he actually needs an editor, I can't believe he was going to follow up on Freeza with Androids 19 and 20 as the main antagonists for the Android saga until his editor talked some sense into him 😂
Shit he forgot Super Saiyan 3, thought 18 had purple hair, and totally forgot Launch existed. His editors are the real heroes. I'm starting to think all those pictures of Toriyama smoking are more than tobacco
@@richborn6700
To be fair, he's 68 years old. He's been working on Dragonball since 1984, and originally ended it back in 1995. The guy is bound to forget a lot of things.
@@mitchelljohnson1198 If fans can remember more about the overall story than the creator, you've got a MAJOR problem.
@@ZeroSmoke.
And I'd agree. But like I said...the guy is almost 70, and has become forgetful. It's how it is.
It's why him sort-of passing the torch to Toyotarou is a good thing. Toyotarou is able to work around and make as much sense as he can of whatever outlines Toriyama gives him, and has some influence on how things play out. There's some back and forth between them, as Toriyama is basically his supervisor and editor, and Toyotarou isn't perfect...but he at least likely knows and remembers the overall story and history better than the man himself does.
Toriyama always hated the idea that people thought of Goku as purely the Hero. He wanted him to be sort of dim and selfish with his need to fight stronger opponents. It's like how in the original dub it was said Goku let Vegeta live out of a sense of mercy. The original manga states flat-out that he only wants to fight Vegeta again someday.
And even then, Krillin COULD have killed Vegeta and i bet Goku would have understand completely, it is because of Goku's will to always become strong and protect those he loves that Krillin BELIEVES Goku can win.
Toriyama thinka Goku is a full-on jackass here forgetting that THE ONE WHIT THE SWORD WAS KRILLIN and the only reason Krillin spared Vegeta was because Goku HAS ALWAYS protected the earth.
Your biggest need is of attention from your daddy, but he'll probably never give it to you because you're a dissapointment.
There is nothing wrong with seeing a character you really love as a Hero.
He must have serious mental personal issues of people loving Goku that way.
People love Goku for many reasons the majority of that love comes from seeing Goku trying his damn hardest to protect his friends, family and the planet he lives on.
Since he hates people seeing Goku as a Hero maybe he should have thought of making Goku an unlikeable villain then.
@@KyleEvrayea but that isn’t the point of his character, the rzn y he “regressed” in super is bc this is the goku toriyama always wanted, he never wanted goku to be a hero or be seen as one, he wanted him to just be a fighter who makes selfish decisions to become stronger and super captures that perfectly
That isn't a problem. Luffy also said the same in One piece that he didn't consider himself a hero either.
Every shonen MC was selfish. Naruto only cared about his goal of hokage. Luffy wanted to become King of Pirates. Ichigo wanted to protect his family. Goku loves fighting. That isn't the problem. The problem is that Goku's character in DBS isn't evolving to his own goals. Its fine he wants to grow stronger and just because of strength alone. He's a Saiyan. There isn't anything wrong with that. It's that if his mindset regresses in response to reaching that goal, then that's the problem.
Goku fighting for his own benefit isn't a problem. Every being is selfish anyway, and Toriyama clearly wanted to give goku flaws. The problem is that he isn't evolving, isn't progressing, or doing anything of the sort or recalling past lessons and applying it to now. Naruto learned that Hokage was a complicated goal and isn't just acknowledgment. Ichigo had to accept every part of himself because he rejected his hollow side since the start of the series. Luffy grew from Ace's death and came out much better for it. Goku isn't the one evolving. He's learning lessons, and just forgetting them as they introduce a new arc.
Goku being a mature, wise and overall mastered character by the end of Z doesn't mean that there is *Nothing* you can do with the character, you just have to find innovative and inspired ways to put his training, his beliefs and his experience to the test. Maybe as he gets older he is starting to feel more fatigued after every fight and wants to let it all go, only to be keep getting dragged back in because nobody else can match him and Vegeta. You could go the opposite direction and maybe he is growing more aggressive as his Saiyan side begins taking over with age, maybe he cant get enough of fighting and can even become the villain of the story.
I mean if we are just going to turn him into someone willing to risk the lives of himself, his friends, family and even the entire Universe, why not just steer into that and paint him as someone who has gotten so bored with being the most Powerful being in the Universe that he is literally willing to sacrifice everything to get even a tiny rush of adrenaline again.
There are so many ways you can change, or even regress the character and have it feel natural and actually logical that fit into the story or even form the basis of the story. But what we got was just a complete Amateur job that was so uninspired and so painfully basic that its not even worth investing into. When I watch Z, its to see those moments of Goku, you all know what Im talking about. Those breakthroughs, those triumphs, those defeats, all of it. He is the star. But when I watch Super, Goku just kind of irritates me to the point where I only tune in for the fights.
They already had done an evil goku trope with Goku Black. It's clear that unlike Ichigo or even Luffy, Goku's character isn't even progressing. He is a shonen character but other shonen protagonists evolved in their own subtle way. Goku unfortunately is not. Many people say MC in shonen anime do not evolve or have zero development but that's blatantly false. Basic storytelling is where the MC/protagonist goes through an adventure and learn about others. They do not forget their lessons at all. Goku is the literal only exception to possibly every anime except Ash Ketchum in Pokemon
@lapplandkun9273 I really just don't understand why they didn't have the Goku black arc be something along the lines of what I was saying above.
Have his Saiyan side start to emerge more, gradually taking hold of him bit by bit until he is full blown villain. You can plant seeds of it throughout Super so it's not so jarring, moments where his temper flares, he shows less mercy and even starts to toy with his foes. You could even have that arc fall at the very end of super and have it be a trult emotional thing, where he is jusy too far gone, not even his family and friends are enough to quell his need for battle, or now, destruction. He might start fighting beerus, getting closer and closer to beating him with every fight until he finally defeats him, and then smites him down. Then, instead of him assuming the mantle of GoD, he simply goes on this Broly esque, Goku Black arc.
I agree with you about the shonen line up, it seems like people are a bit too eager to make an exception for how static Goku as a character is, and also how new this development is. He wasn't always static but people try to tell you he was, it's very bizarre.
Or... don't bring him back into the main role for the new series and soft-reboot it. Make a fucking new casts of character for a new DB series. His character arc already ended in Z and GT, so I don't see him developed any further or even in-character to even regressed due to his pure of heart.
It’s bad writing at its worst. A wise and mature character doesn’t have to be boring if the story is good. Captain Picard from Star Trek TNG for example is a highly mature and competent character and he is beloved by millions of people and the show is fascinating. Mature characters can still face difficult situations. A show like Dragon Ball contains many characters that could be used to tell interesting stories. But unfortunately, most characters have been sidelined.
Also, as Picard has put it: “It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness; that is life.”
And so it could be with Goku. He should be put in situations like that. We could see him deal with loss, regret, or maybe we could see him win things other than fights. Have him face more complex challenges than "must fight strong guy".
Dragon Ball Multiverse had fascinating stories, even though not all of them were centered on Goku. How did they managed that but Toriyama & Toei can’t?
One thing I don’t see enough people talk about is the fact that goku pushed for the tournament of power when specifically warned by beerus and whis not to. As far as goku was aware, he willingly went out of his way to endanger his own universe and several others just so he can fight some strong opponents. He had no idea they’d have been wished back and didn’t stop to consider the ramifications at all. In gokus mind he was about to endanger literally trillions of lives just for less than an hour of fun.
Well, let's not be unfair. Whis and Beerus had no idea the stakes WOULD be universal destruction. They just suspected it could be something big. Goku (having spoken with the Omni king before) thought he knew the stakes wouldn't be big. And he was right, the omni king never wanted to destroy all the universes over a fight. He was testing the moral character of the winner to bring the losers back.
@@scinary7052 Not to add the fact that they basically said "If goku didn't suggest the tournament we would've just deleted all involved universes without chance to save themselves". It's a bit hard to follow the 'Goku endangered the multiverse' train when the plot says he didn't
DBZ has just gotten to the Jerkass Goku phase, because absolutely nobody at this point can do anything without copying The Simpsons in some way.
@ItchRevenge92 Yeah but goku didn't know that Zeno wouldn't destroy the universes. He acted out of greed
@@boltskyline2957 He acted out of greed, so what? While I despise DB super "goku", according to the plot his greed saved everyone. If I were to blame anyone I'd blame the plot, maybe even who wrote it. I feel like they needed a reason to move the story, while keeping goku free of guilt. And that bull is what they came up with
What's even worse is that they made Goku want to be friends with the same person that not only killed his best friend but also killed he's and piccolo's entire race
Well he figured with Vegeta who pretty much had a hand in the namekian death rates, he might have a chance with Frieza too. I guess thats what they believed
@Snake Hammer He did believe thT until he saw that there was no changing Freeza. Freeza returns with the purpose to kill them all again and even almost killed Gohan and yet Goku thinks "sure I'll let him go and train. I want the best fight" huh
>.> both Piccolo and Vegeta were murderous villains who later became Gokus friends... Piccolos father killed both Krillin and Master Roshi... where the fuck are you getting this shit.
His dad and other sains too
@@powerjolt7215 that pretty much ruined the feud
Remember Vegeta's speech in Z about how Goku surpassed him because he fought for others while Vegeta primarily fought for himself? Well it feels like the roles have reversed. Only the writers are all seemingly unaware of what they've done.
It's particularly amusing that Toriyama is giving the character he hates good character growth while shafting the main character
Dragon Ball accidentally making Vegeta a great character is basically the plot of the show.
Thats why I feel like he is the main character in DBZ. His arc is far better than anyone elses.
All for money.
Truly ironic. Much mess as Toriyama gives Vegeta and tries to make him look bad and weak, he unintentionally makes him more human, and that’s why his moments when he helps the main characters more powerful, because even in weakness, he still never gives up. The character is a great inspiration to me as well. I sadly can’t say the same for modern Goku.
Everyone in Dragonball Super is suffering from a midlife crisis.
And Braindamage.
Goku hit his head a second time
I often have this feeling that the problem is that Toriyama these days no longer has to deal with a strickt editor on Dragonball.
Like Toriyama ones said that he wanted Goku to not be a hero but rather selfish this means that ether he forgot how he use to write goku or that it was his editors that forced him to tone Goku's sillier and more selfish traits down.
That actually makes a lot of sense
I actually think it is the opposite issue, Dragon Ball has became such a huge IP that anything new for the franchise must be approved by a number of editors, investors, directors and marketing departments. Everything has to be profitable, which results in everything being safe, sillier and kid friendly. I can't tell for sure if that's the case, but I can't help but think so
@@LucasMalaquias I would daub this for a couple of reasons.
For one the earliest signs of nearly all of supers issues can be found in the Boo arc a story line known for Toriyama only agreeing to do so if the Editors would dramatically losen the grip on him.
You know issues like build ups with no payoff, new ultimate forms every other moment (yes I know the Cell arc also had this but at least were with all but 2 of them made clear that they were failures to begin with and so came off as far more purposeful red herrings compared to Super) and Characters acting far goofier again like this was really early dragonball again.
It also was properly the first moment were we got hit with GOD overload.
Than is it also known about Battle of Gods which started the degradation of Goku's character and the repeat of lessons (in this case the old one from Muten Roshi that there is always someone stronger than you out there) was originally going to be far more like the older Dragonball movies until Toriyama himself got involved and made many noteworthy changes including the ones that lead to Super's repeated issues.
Resurrection F the final step to super that has the whole "Goku gets knocked out by a laser pointer" issue and had Freezer's power grow a stupendous amount in just 4 months was also fully Toriyama written and in part only exist because Toriyama wanted to do something with Freezer again after he heard the Freezer tribute song "F".
So yes I do think the root cause is a lack of editorial constrains on Toriyama we do know that his editors in the past had no issue shooting down dumb ideas (and in case of the Artificial humans did 1 continue to do so after he stopped being Toriyama's editor)
Toriyama is ultimately a comedy writer that needs a guiding hand on logic in fights and to not derail characters for the sake of his beloved comedy by an editor.
So while I don't think all problems come from it so do I think that if Toriyama would have more opposition like back in the 80s and 90's would at least some of Supers issues especially concerning regressing goku properly not have happened.
@@LucasMalaquias that also is a good point
Comparable is that's kinda what happened to Star Wars Episode 1. Nobody was going to question or get in the way of the guy that made the most successful movie trilogy. So The Phantom Menace was George Lucas unleashed. And we got problems out of that. (Of course we now have witnessed lower standards making us say it wasn't so bad)
Goku was always supposed to be jovial and silly… but then they contrasted it with him getting serious and smart when fights started.
They dumbed him down too much to where it’s not funny but almost annoying at times, and they took away a lot of his seriousness during a fight/something serious going on.
Similar thing happened with Sora from Kingdom Hearts
He matured. Last time he was like in Super was before his mariage with Chichi.
He became a dad and took responsability.
Meanwhile in Super he doesn't even know what a kiss is lmao
@@ZERARCHIVE2023 he still had jovial/silly/naive moments. Like on snake way how he doesn’t realize what they’re trying to do. His vibe is usually carefree though apart from fights. But yeah, it’s nowhere near the level of Super
Goku is always serious when he needs to be in Super
@@lovesgibson IDK this isn't canon, never appeared in the manga lol
He was less naive as soon as he died against raditz.
A massive shift to his character happened for the better, the anime made him more emotionnal but in the manga, he was running at top speed to go asap to KingKai.
@@Santzu_ kinda… but they push it too far sometimes like the examples given in this video
I'm not a fan of Goku's characterization in Super either but, let's be honest, Toriyama forgot Launch existed. Not realizing he was rewriting his old stuff isn't out of the realm of possibilities.
Launch was just a goofy side character with a gimmick. She was never meant to be remembered.
Big reason I don't like Super is because of this, I appreciate the video addressing it.
Look what they did with my boy. 😭
That was a very deep analysis of Goku's character. It's sad how Goku was flanderized on Super, I know that they need to have a character that needs to grow, but instead of regress it, they could have find some way to make it evolve more, I mean, Goku was already a master as a mortal, so they could have took the way of this complete master trying to challenge the gods, tooking what he already learned with him as some sort of experience that would make him a special fighter among them. Super would be way more insteresting if we had that mature Goku from Buu Saga that already learned that his love for the fights isn't the most important thing.
Yup they really took the easy way out with Goku, kept Goku as the main protagonist but chose to regress him instead of being imaginative with the way he could grow.
I know man I hate coming across this breed of individuals who say dbz Goku and dbs Goku are the same. No the fuck they aren't anyone with a functioning brain and corneas can figure that out. They massacred my boy 🫦🫦🫦.
Thing is if they were gonna go the regression route there were far better an more creative ways to go about it.. maybe he catches an alien magic virus that ages him up so he get humanized in a way. Maybe he gets sent to a different dark dimension an has to find his way back home. Or he goes to a different plane of existence where his “power level” is essentially reset an he has to start back from square 1.. maybe an opponent can’t beat him so he does the next best thing an sends him to the furthest farthest parts of the outer edge of the galaxy maybe an undiscovered part.. where the air is super thin.. like it’s be up in the clouds or up a mountain..It’s always dark an it’s either Too cold or far too hot..for most beings to inhabit so hes tired like a regular human an there special alien/ predators adapted there so he has to //'mm constantly move without thinking😉 an his ki is a detriment cuz it’s sustenance to these aliens .. the critters constantly feed on his life force & Ki like mosquitos ants bedbug type stuff.. an once they get a sample they swell up in size an intelligence.. maybe get saiyan intincts an become power hungry an ravenous when they bite him savages addicted to his light energy. Some even adapt an no longer are damaged or hurt by ki attacks..like android 19 but naturally.. Or they get incalculably big i’m talking they’re so starved that 1 big ki blast like a kamahama wave has them growing to the size of a island or a mountain.. make there. an bro comes back to strong. cuz the gravity was like 850x earth. an the ppl there live Deep deep underground mega cities within an miles deep in stony near unbreakable mountains etc.. or on secluded cities on the top of the highest mountains underneath acidic lakes..
And that’s why I don’t like Akira Toriyama. Let’s be real bro….
And Goku is such a simple fucking character yet people are blind to his character assassination
This makes me appreciate GT Goku more. Even though he wasn't from the official continuity of the franchise, he was still a badass and I loved how he didn't hesitate to kill his enemies to save the universe. That scene where Babi tried to escape, he ended him with the Kamehameha wave. I am sure if it was Super Goku, he would've let him go so he could train and come back for a fight. 😂
This. GT Goku actually followed after the End Of Z, Super Goku had some development post Z (well defeating Buu), but then it was all thrown away and he got worse. Btw the development I'm talking about is when he went ssg and hated how he got the power.
@PowerJolt72 Let's not act like GT Goku was any better, man regressed into a literal child both Physically and mentally with Trunks acting like the adult throughout most of the blackstar arc.
And he was a complete moron in the Super 17 arc, where fired nothing but ki blasts the whole fight and was shocked he was losing. It took him until the very end of the arc for him to realise 17s very obvious weakness. So much for being a combat prodigy.
There's other moments I could list off as well, but I don't want to be make this too long lol. All I want to say is that just cause DBS is bad, doesn't make GT any better as it suffers from a lot of the same issues Super does.
@@thegungerbrospodcast7671well technically isn't that kinda reversed since it's actually super that has the same issues gt has, plus even with goku turning into a kid and having somewhat of a mentality as one that's at least a good reason for him, what's super Goku's excuse because he was supposed to be like that, that's not even a good reason at all after what he has been through including with gt goku who would actually show some matureness, but one thing is the two do know how to strategize in battle but it would happen at the end, like the super 17 fight where you know the ki blasts actually worked for once at something by letting super 17 absorb that and using the dragon fist, but hey you are right both aren't better except for the ending which I'll have to give to GT since that one felt like a send off
@@thegungerbrospodcast7671Is not better than DBZ Goku, but for sure still better than DBS Goku
@PowerJolt72 exactly 💯 finally someone knows gt take place after the end of z
You've vocalized a lot of the stuff I had a problem with in newer DB material real well. Characters who are capable of massively superhuman feats via martial arts should not treat something as basic as practicing moves till your body can do them without having to think like this utterly novel concept beyond the grasp of the average mortal. Stuff like that is the foundation of pretty much any physical activity from sports to playing instruments, let alone fighting. Like what's next, is Goku gonna learn how to breathe steadily while fighting in the next arc? Will he learn to better conserve his energy by discovering the mystical world of aftercare?
Honest to God, I wouldn't put it past them.
@@concept5631 "pre-workout stretching, TIMES TEEEEEEEEN!!!!" XD
It would have been awesome to see Goku take on a master role and train future generations of fighters instead of being an actual man child. His best moments are when he changes from his easygoing and carefree attitude to a serious warrior ready to throw down
I'd also like to add, there's clearly room for Gokus growth as a mentor as well super could've analyzed.
Goku did that with Uub and I wish it was explored more often
That’s pretty much what Goku was trying to do in the Dragonball manga. DBS ruined that.
In the anime version of Goku recruiting people for the T.O.P. one of the ways that Frieza sweetened the deal for Goku to agree to wishing him back to life was the chance of him training to become even MORE powerful than Golden Frieza.
So, I was scratching my head at the start of the Broly film when Goku acted surprised when Vegeta called him dumb for not thinking Frieza would power up further and take his revenge (Black Frieza anyone...).
Which to be fair, Beerus was the one who instructed Whis to revive him so...
But i would revive him and kill him hour after that
frieza played a heavy role in the ToP at the end, and look at the choices, promise to revive frieza if he helps the team win and not get the universe erased. or not recruit frieza and make the risk higher that the universe gets erased. at that time goku went with the best option.
@@georgeDeming That's not the issue
The issue is that Goku initially agreed to it because Frieza said he could get stronger,
then later Goku is surprised when told Frieza could get stronger.
See the problem now?
The films are not canon. Get over it.
@@dangerousdays2052 And who wrote those movies? More specifically, Super Hero?
I think people idealize Akira Toriyama. Dragon Ball Super is a perfect exemple of what he can do alone. Kazuhiko Torishima, Akira Toriyama's first editor, was the one that made Dragon Ball (and Dr.Slump) successful. If you ever want to know what Dragon Ball would have been without Kazuhiko Torishima, try to find "Dragon Boy", it's what Toriyama originally submitted.
Kazuhiko Torishima added several characters like Kame-Sen'nin and Kuririn, he created the Tenkaichi Budōkai. It was his idea to focus the storyline on fighting, and he pushed Akira Toriyama to create more serious villains like Piccolo and the Saiyans. He even made Arale the protagonist of Dr.Slump (instead of Dr.Slump himself).
I think Kazuhiko should be the one in charge of the writing instead of Toriyama.
@@MetalHopper I don't know. I think the alchemy of both of their minds was what gave Dragon Ball it's magic.
I think Kazuhiko Torishima is a good advisor, but not always right.
Totally agreed. DBS is only the proves Toryiama is a perfect moron, just like he pictured Goku there. I didn't know that there was another brain behind DB and DBZ, but it perfectly makes sense now. DBS is so weird I cannot even find a reason to elaborate a critic on it. He just made the unbelievable that is, to make DBGT the "wished continuation". I grew up with DBZ and loved (and still love it) from deep of my heart. I will say to my son he should not take DBS and DBGT serious and should consider that the saga ends on DBZ.
@@leandrogomes7738for the show Toriyama only gave pointers, the writing of the show was primarily by Toei animation and the manga primarily by Toyotarou, the movies are the only things that can be said was Toriyama alone.
That goes for a lot of editors, this isn’t exclusive to Dragon Ball lol
Dragonball Super is not canon. Its a badly written fanfiction and proof that Akira Toriyama should have just let Dragonball Z be the end of the series.
Eh, the fans want dumb action to watch, so let them have it. Maybe they should want something else, but they don’t and that’s ok.
this video pretty much nails it for me and how I've felt about goku in DBZ. well analysed and great video!
Don't mess with us dragonball fans, we lost some of the most integral and important parts of not only the characters, but plot and story from the creator of the anime itself. Now we struggle to fight for an anime we still love, can you really blame us .
Us Dragon Ball fans are looking like the meme when Walter falls to his knees😂💀
Dragon Ball fans are some of the most low brow people in existence. You're not fighting for anything, because Goku was always an air head. End of story. Yall are literally the fandom that thought Broly was in the robot in the Universe 6 Tournament. 🤣😂
@@dangerousdays2052 Damn bro you good? Hating for no reason
People overexaggerate what happened to Goku‘s character and Goku has always been pretty fucking dumb I mean come on now you can’t give me no moments where you were actually like look how smart Goku is and that’s from pre-dragon ball z like it’s kind of weird Dragon Ball Z fans always find something wrong with Dragon Ball Z and that’s the whole problem with our anime now today it’s the fence it’s not toy animation it’s not Toriyama it’s the fans Goku has always been a dumb character in the beginning of the saiyan saga he let go of raditz tail because he was naïve or sympathetic which is something that’s honestly just dumb as hell given the fact that the man literally just kidnapped your kid😂😂😂😭 it’s not like this is some sad anime like Naruto where Goku as a kid was sad about his family it was never that case googles always pretty dumb and pretty happy go lucky that’s the kind of character he is you guys are just getting mad because in super they add more plot in a lot more dialogue and a lot more moments for Goku to be done rather than see it was a lot more fighting and a lot of people who watch Dragon Ball Z grew up on Kai if you watch Dragon Ball Z Kai than you know exactly what I Mean
@@macthapimp2089 Brudda I ain't reading allat
I only just recently went back and watched Dragonball from beginning to end properly. I finally understood when Goku changed and how. After his training with Kami and Mr. Popo, he exudes this mysterious aura ever since then even through out dbz. He had this new spiritual awareness that you could see in his body posture and mannerisms. Like you could just tell he could sense things others could not hence the mystical aura about him. In Super, this was all gone. It was like seeing kid Goku pre-Popo era all over again.
He literally grew up during Db. It was amazing. I had never seen anything like it in cartoons/anome before. The mc grew up like I did..i was a child watching DB and only later on in my teens did i manage to watch DBZ. It was beautiful.
He also stopped his education. If it wasn’t martial he didn’t learn it.
I seriously don’t think the modern goku knows how to do math or write and if he dos it’s definitely not higher levels
@@kevind3974 "I never let my schooling interfere with my education." -Mark Twain
DBZ Goku is so much more sensible (both intellectually and spiritually) than most of the so called 'educated' people.
In Dragon ball, Goku's entire journey was his education.
He just doesn't have a dumb certificate to show for it.
The schools that we have today are indoctrination chambers which was built to churn out factory workers.
The nonsense that happen in school isn't education, it's just conditioning, it's not about love for learning but passing exams.
When children are happy to get sick so that they wouldn't get to go to school we should understand how messed up school is.
@@nexuscross3233 Ya in DBZ. were talking Super here boy, your arguments just went down the shitter just like his iq did
and before you do the usual "thats not DBZ" or "my DBZ" argument you dragon ball stans love to do. stop lying to yourself its fuckin canon. goku got dumb as a brick and just in all honesty became an absolute shit of a man because he fell to an addiction to fighting
its like boruto, the story should have ended years ago, but they saw money and didnt care about cherictor anymore
@@kevind3974 master roshi taugh them some basic school stuff
Dragon Ball today is just recycling over and over its basic concepts while being written in the most monetizable way possible. That's it.
Fr
When the first Ultra Instinct form was being shown off during the TOP, I was really excited for it because it was teasing a return to form for the character to his martial arts routes and channeling all those years for technique and battle experience into a new power that built upon that rather than SSJ genes and new forms with bulging muscles and longer hair. I was also hoping that it would slowly reawaken the more mature side of Goku we lost since Z and seeing how serious he was in UI form, it fed into that hope even more.
But alas, I stood corrected.
Holy sh!t . A second UA-camr that actually understands Dragon Ball
Thanks bro! But now I'm curious... who's the other one? Carthu's Dojo, Mistare Fusion? 🤔
@CAGE_1 mistare fusion, but I like what you're contributing to the conversation over Mistare Fusio 😅 . MS is just informative and good for context . You are bringing hope back to the community (Ultra Instinct isn't canon)
Keep up the good work guy !
Don't forget about Saiyan Scholar!
@brunomoreira2483 well doesn't that guy kinda takes things like power levels seriously ? I'm more into the intellectual 🤓
@@hue_jazz59 no, if watch constantly his content, and you really claim to be the "intelectual type of guy" that you claim you are, you should know that firstly, yes, power levels are something really important and essencial in the DB universe and secondly, no, Saiyan Scholar is a channel that mainly analyse deeply the narrative of the Dragon Ball universe, dissecting characters, arcs, etc. And yes, he is probably the most intelligent individual when it comes to analysing Dragon Ball in general.
Tbh this still isn't a good excuse for goku's character regression. There was infinite possibilities for goku to retain his master rank and mental capacity for a modern audience without butchering his actual development. Not everyone mc needs to be hella stupid for the audience to like em.
Like for example we could've explored goku as a martial arts teacher for the next gen. Show him developing his own teacher-student dynamic. Then near the end have goku make them a master.
Or even have him explore his sayian heritage more with vegeta after finding out about their god forms.
These guys are just playing it too safe at this point, they're scared to take simple steps.
do you know what happens to boxers after years of boxing? or any person in any sport full contact? head injuries happen, the longer you do said sport the more injuries to the head you get,, the higher risk you take of mentaly regressing like goku, its medically proven fact, the more your brain jiggles around and bounces around in your cranium the less braining its going to be able to do. that is why goku regressed.
@@georgeDeming Did u even watch the vid
@@georgeDeming You're not even trying to hide the cope. Like you deadass just made shit up to justify bad writing.
@@georgeDeming Why does it feel like you’ve been taking too many hits to the noggin?
@@georgeDeming *senzu beans enter the chat*
I can forgive Toriyama for ruining Goku. But I can't forgive anyone for producing Dragonball super. That was a very pathetic show. Especially how they redesigned Broly. That was cringe worthy.
I feel it would have been better to have seen the struggle Goku would slowly face, feeling calm with his power, but slowly beginning to lose the race over time, eventually realizing he doesn't have enough, and through that desperation and anger, is what prompts the beginning of the god ki forms, allowing Goku to continue growing and developing without completely ruining his character
Which would lead into the goku black arc, but any form of progression and understanding or a miniscule of development is a no no in toei's mind
Toriyama _used_ to be an amazing author in his creative prime. But that prime ended right around the time DBZ ended. Sometimes, that's just the story of our lives. We mature, become great for some time, and then wither away. Toriyama has spent all his shells - that's all there is to it. Can't blame the man for losing his touch with a project from the last century.
In a way, Super Goku could be Toriyama’s cry for help.
@@yareyarejose5080
It was a joke. The Joke was that because Goku mirrors Toriyama becoming rusty, it is, in a way, Like Toriyama secretly crying for help.
@@SkoomaGodDovahkiin666 how? toriyama didnt have complete creative control during dbz- the frieza saga and android saga turned out the way they did due to his editor telling him not to do this or that, while he had far more control during the buu saga and most fans consider it a disappoinment.
he was never as passionate for the series as most fans make it out to be, the only reason why super is a thing is cuz he didnt want evolution to be his project's final legacy. if you want toriyama's actual passion projects that aren't motivated by spite, check out sand land and dragon quest.
if anything Goku's characterization in super seems like what he always intended- just look at how he married chi-chi in the original dragonball. a lot of the more serious stuff that fans clamor for, like the history of trunks and the bardock special, are things toriyama admitted he would never make, lol.
@@SkoomaGodDovahkiin666 i don't think he's rusty, lol. super fits dragonball's tone far better than z.
Makes the ongoing contribution of people like Oda Araki Togashi Miura that much more impressive
I find it funny the Monkey Kid's portrayal of Sun Wukong is basically what Goku should be at this point. Heck, I wonder if Sean took on the role to play this kind of character, as well as circling back around to the character that inspired Goku
I agree except with the whole laziness part
I can boil it down to one word for Goku and the other characters: Flanderization
Bro thank you for putting it into words. I see so many ppl talk as if Goku was always like this in the "original japanese dub". But no, he's literally regressed so hard in Super. Its so ridiculous because Goku was a fighting genius.
The mental gymnastics DBS fanboys use to gaslight other fans is so annoying, I just had to make this video 😂
@@CAGExplains a better writer definitely would’ve found a way to write Goku truer to his goofy self from the manga WITHOUT regressing him to whatever he is now literally “forgetting” things he’s already done/grew from.
I remember someone called Goku's "Hey, we are living in peace on Earth" from SBroly movie amazing character development. Like he learned that he is too powerful and should be careful during fights. I didn't even want to argue, it was unbelievably stupid take. Take that got around several thousands of likes
He's not regressed at all. Goku is supposed to be the way he is in Super, not like he is in Z anime. It was never implied that he mastered what Korin, Popo and Muten Roshi taught him. They didn't master those things themselves entirely. All those teachings accumulated and resulted in Ultra Instinct.
I'm not a Super fanboy, and years before Super came out, I argued Goku is far from a fighting genius. Fans love to make excuses for him, but letting go of Radditz tail? Letting Vegeta Transform into an Ape? Letting Freeza transform when he has mere moments to escape? Leaving Imperfect Cell alive to fight him later? Forgetting how SS3 works and trying to summon a spirit bomb while using it? Goku just wants to fight and goes head first into any scenario and gets rocked often because of it. Besides the point that being a "fighting genius" is irrelevant with power scaling, since a total dummy like Fat Buu can simply be stronger. Technique didn't mean shit until DBS.
Goku has always been goofy, but this is next level. Power creep is always an issue, and franchises usually fail at handling it. They keep scaling to the point of absurdity, or in this case dumb down and regress. Neither work well. That's the problem with not tying off a franchise. If they don't end, they get stupid.
next level? the issue is y’all never understood goku’s character in the first place. Do yourself a favor and go watch z in Japanese or read the manga. he has the exact same “goofy” voice tone, actions, and personality as he does in dbs. even in the earky episodes, when he first sees king yemma he literally wanted to fight him be he looked strong and kami had to tell him to behave. it’s never changed because it’s goku.
@@leultrainstinct406I watched original Dragon ball and DBZ in Japanese and I can tell you that Super completely butchered his character. Take a watch yourself again and you'll realize how different Goku is. Z Goku never blindly asked for fights against strong opponents because he understood the consequences. He had flaws in Z too, but they made him interesting as a character. He was too kind hearted and often spared his opponents because he believed that even the worst of villains can be good inside and also because he wanted to fight them later for his own selfish reasons,. But he understood the consequences and always took responsibility for his actions, that made him badass and somewhat relatable and likeable. In his sacrfice against Cell, he apoligized to Gohan for being selfish and doing what he always wanted, that's more mature and heartwarming than anything Super Goku had ever done.
And that's the Goku I know and love, a flawed hero which you can relate with. In Super, he's just a total idiot who acts immature and childish.
@@leultrainstinct406 pure bullshit take,stop embarassing yourself
@@leultrainstinct406You're wrong and should feel bad
@@leultrainstinct406your wrong gang just move on
I think the fandom also had some influence...unintentionally. I think Goku being acting stupid, forgetful or not caring for people's interests at times, stems from the jokes inside the community, such as with DBZA. This wasn't something we actually wanted, but it was more of an inside joke. I feel like what Toei and Toriyama did was act like that friend that tells everyone else the joke and has their own spin on it, but it gets ruined.
I feel the same way and it's something that isn't talked about enough. I was never all that into anime except for a few shows and I can only really compare this to Hellsing with it's "Abridged" version. It was sorta funny at first but eventually lines are crossed and everything just becomes a parody of itself. Let's not all pretend we haven't seen it in movies or TV too
This is what happens when you have "dragon ball fans" saying that DBZA is better than the original. Literally almost every DB video I watch on UA-cam all the comments are basically lines from DBZA. So they were probably thinking they'd get the same attention if they kind of went a similar direction which is ridiculous.
DBZA had some interesting takes and in some aspects did things much better than Toriyama did with his writing, but randomly changing Goku to seem like the version portrayed in TFS' abridged dub just makes no sense.
Are there really people who haven't made that connection?
@@soullessginger9912 The issue with that thinking is that DBZA works BECAUSE its a parody. Its only funny because DBZ's tone is super serious. It doesnt exist in a vacuum.
Trying to copy DBZA just made DBS a parody of itself. Its technically really good writing but doesnt follow the "rule of cool" so it falls on its face.
There are a lot encounters in DBS that boil down to "what if these two characters interacted in their stereotypical fashion as denoted by DBZA"
Im convinced beerus gave goku brain damage when he flicked him on the forehead.
Ah yes the instant lobotomy attack
Thank you for documenting all this. I feel like people like to ignore the blatant character assassination because they just want new dragon ball. But the long time fans truly deserve better than seeing their main character disrespected so heavily.
Even worse, many people defend this assassination stating that "Goku was always like this" when it's clearly not the case.
@@agnuswulf i swear to god those people are dumb as hell.
Goku was naive but not outright mentally disabled retard like dbs tries to portray him to be.
One example is in dbs he's so dumb he can't even tell beerus in a monaka outfit this is the same dude who was able to tell kami when kami took over some random human body back in dragon ball (piccolo jr saga).
A lot of people don't care. But when people who do care talk about it. It's always "it'S NoT thAt deEP 💀"
You are not a true fan, Cody. Because if you were, you'd know that Goku has always been mentally stunted.
People say that Goku’s character is assassinated but then they don’t bring up any real fax or any real evidence behind it in the first five minutes and 47 seconds of this video this dude has not given me a single actual fact instead he started bringing up old Dragon Ball and saying that Goku learn from Komi and Popo that they will always be a stronger enemy so he treats his enemies with respect they said that in the first part of the movie he tried to claim that Goku‘s character regress because he paid no respect to freezia Dude with bringing up pieces from the Monga and then coming up with his own conclusions but not saying anything that’s actual facts except for the one part of Goku being surprised that freezer was gonna come back stronger that’s the only thing dude said Goku forgot he was a martial artist where just because you pulled up a scene where he said he needs pure power when he was fighting hit and hit was freezing time so he needed to break through hits time skip the power up it’s so weird that Dragon Ball Z fans are watching this video and they’re not putting the shit together themselves and that’s coming from a Naruto fan
I'm glad someone is pointing out all the flaws in DBS,idk why do db fans pretend like DBS is actually good when it's not
It is good, but far from perfect
Bro soooo many people try to gaslight and say "GokU hAs AlwAYs BeEN LiKE tHiS" I had to document the decline myself 🤔😂
This is true, DBS does have its moments of quality
I've legit heard "Goku is a good learner, but a bad teacher". It makes me think of two things and they're eqally bad imo
Either Goku failed Gohan's attainment of SSJ2 in the time chamber because he couldn't teach him well enough
Or Goku is carried so much by his inherent ability to absorb knowledge that he's overreliant and could never actually analyze a situation if it doesn't include his direct involvement
@@pitanga1724 Id give DBS at best 3/10
I like the idea of whis training a wise goku. It ties into master roshi’s lesson of “someone always being stronger or more skilled”. Too bad they decided to make him a child while learning
I'll forever prefer GT Goku over Super Goku because of this regression. But Z Goku will always be on top
It always made me wonder
Where did the smart Goku from the 23rd World Tournament go
He was very strategic and managed to deduce others technique in the middle of a battle and even thought of ways to counter them easily
Heck even telling their flaws
He’s still their, does nobody remember, Goku countering hit, using his friend’s techniques strategically to get an advantage over Jiren. Analyzing freizas flaws
@@paigeh7892 nah they don't, they act like goku was smart in Z, but they just watch clips off of youtube
@@calvinjohnson948 honestly everyone here seems to just only watch filler of dbs and completely ignore all of his actual cool moments, like the multi destructo disk, blue kaioken, his rage against black for killing goten and chichi, his rage against jiren for threatening his friends
@@definitiverandomvan a few moments don't make up for it when the essence and progression of the character has disappeared. Goku is good at fighting? Big deal, he was a tactical genius since day one. It's more about how he carries himself and deliver those lines to others instead of being giddy 24/7
@@definitiverandomvan Seems like "everyone" here forgot to watch the video. Because this was literally discussed in the video, it's only a handful of instances where glimpses of Goku's characterization was seen, emphasis on handful... (0:36)
To be fair though, in GT Goku was really relaxed and was carefree like super Goku, but the difference is the fact that GT Goku at some point started caring when baby had him beaten and weary. Super Goku has yet to go through this type of growth which adds to the characters regression as a whole, and it's sad to see 😭
Goku is normally quite relaxed as shown when he’s in any non serious situation.
@@crestofhonor2349 well to be fair, in GT Goku knew that the next generation had the potential to succeed him which is why he was so relaxed and carefree but seeing the earth while defeated made him realize that there's something he needs to protect. The same can't be said for super since Goku and Vegeta save the day every time, and Goku regressing is a consequence of this. An event that makes Goku get really serious would boost the series in my opinion since the end of z is approaching.
@@scpunit2141 We'll see what happens as the Super manga releases as for now it's just covering Super Hero with a few slight changes
@@scpunit2141 im 100% percent sure if super goku was in gt he would have spared someone like omega sheron he did it to moro so
umm the ToP did happen.
My explanation for Goku having to “relearn” martial arts is that in a way it’s an acknowledgment of a common criticism of Dragon Ball: that once power ups like Super Sayian became a thing, power became much more important than specific martial arts skills. Ultra Instict is like realizing the two could just be stacked one onto the other. One could even push the head canon to say that Goku “forgot” the importance of martial arts once his power level became such an important factor in his victories.
Now, I’m sure there’s plenty of moments in the series that directly contradict the notion that skill was irrelevant in all the previous victories, but even then it could be argued this is akin to reintroducing the concept yet again, which I suppose is relevant.
No one cares less about dragon than its own creator
I interpret Goku's last attack with Freeza differently. Not that he wanted Freeza to be good, but he wanted Freeza to be humbled by the humiliation and spared because Goku already said he broke his Pride and he was getting weaker making their fight pointless to him at that point. ROF rehashes that and Freeza still doesn't learn but instead just thought he needed a better form and lost again, which for Freeza might be in his character to not get it which is why they are opposites. Freeza is ignorant to humility and Goku is supposed to be the better fighter because he leans it. Which is in Japanese culture post WW2.
Vegeta for the longest time was always weaker than Goku while he was enraged with entitlement and ego. When he humbled himself enough to fuse into Vegito for the sake of Bulma and Trunks, thats when he technically stronger, which fits the theme. When Cell started to worry about being weaker than Gohan and got offended, that when he started to lose badly to him too. When Gohan was arrogantly fighting Buu, he lost. Humility determining who wins and loses in DB is pretty consistent to me. In just that theme. Its what makes Goku pure of heart as opposed to it just being morality.
I appreciate this comment, I suppose the scene says a lot about Freeza and Goku's contrasting personalities.
This already happened in z tho. And goku stopped pulling punches regarding killing his opponents
@@thatitalianlameguy2235 He actually kind of didn’t since he didn’t wanna kill gero ,the androids or fat buu even tho he knew they were potentially evil
It doesn't change how stupid the freiza saga is and how stupid the whole series is really.
Goku was a great character all the way up until after he turned super saiyan.
@@chrismcknight2250 Goku doesn't know Gero. He busted through Red Ribbon Army just for the Dragon Balls. He wasn't there to massacre soldiers and scientists like the fandom claims him was. Less is said for Android 17-18, because he gets heart disease and is out of commission. *Kami* is the one telling Piccolo not to go after the androids because the main characters have been the ones invading their home and antagonizing them in their attempt at proactive heroism.
Goku does NOT perceive Fat Buu as evil. He considers him a clueless child who knows only what Babidi's been telling him to do. It's Piccolo once again who makes a big fuss out of the situation and claims him to be pure evil. Naturally Piccolo's proven wrong again when Mr. Satan single-handedly reforms Buu just by telling him that killing is bad.
Goku had already learned all his lessons, his journey was finished. Instead of Goku acting as a mentor for younger generations of fighters (while staying as an absokute powerhouse and increasing his strength) it was easier to dumb him down and have him forget all what he learned.
He literally forgot nothing he learned, he’s just a lot more carefree and less serious when the situation doesn’t require him to be serious
That's because Toriyama already tried replacing Goku once with Gohan, and that didn't work. So obviously based on his past experience, he couldn't have Goku mentoring younger fighters, because that would've caused everybody to hate Super by the same logic that they complained about Goku's prior passing of the torch.
@@gurvmlkit was Toriyama’s own doing. He literally stated that he felt as if gohan should be someone who doesn’t train a lot, which is why hub exists
The big problem with super is that its portrayal of goku was made as a response to seeing how the anime made goku way more heroic... But in turn overcompensated so hard that it completely forgot that goku being a good person was a critical part of his character in the original manga as well.
hell, in the very first arc of the series, and one of his first defining moments was helping the sea turtle back to the sea withouth any bigger motivations than that it was the right thing to do. Goku's role in entire first arc overall, was to serve as the moral heart of the tale, wheras everyone else during the hunt for the dragon balls were selfish, he was selfless and a good person.
And that continued through the series. Yes he was still very flawed and made very questionable decisions, and sometimes they blew up in his face, and sometimes not, but he was at his heart a good person.
The moment of aparing freeza is probably the best example. Sparing vegeta was in the original manga a very selfish one... But the same can not be said for Freeza, who was begging for mercy and salvation... And goku gave it to him, because at his heart, he is a good person, even despite how much he realised it was a mindboogling stupid thing to do, his concious did not allow him to just finish him off, or leave him to die.
Yes, goku's idiocy knows no bound in super, but i would say that charactervise, all of his original goodness(which was there in the original manga, even if toei amped it up to superman levels), was removed, leaving goku as a man who only thinks about fighting as his one true love and desire, and absolutely everything else(family, earth, universe, friends) second. And that state of mind is the source of all the problems haunting him as a character.
The boundless stupidity certainly doesnt help, but its that lack of a strong core that defined son goku, and the simple fact is, its gone now.
Akira probably said: “we don’t care as long Goku is powerful”
I have 2 theories:
- Toriyama is dead since long ago. They are using his corpse to generate money endlessly
- Toriyama doesn't care. He is not involved. He doesn't check the stuff that happens. He is just swimming in his money like Scrooge McDuck.
Theory no. 2
What started as a work of passion became his primary source of apathy and is now solely worked on as a product made for the sake of its existing demand.
It's more like he was badgered into making more for 20 years until he finally wrote some crap his heart wasn't in it.
its 2 and its been 2 since Resurrection F
He only made Battle of Gods to make up for Dragonball Evolution
It's the second one.
Super entering production coincided with him being named in the Paradise Papers. Make of that what you will.
@@SizdothyxPeople don’t realize this… probably lost a ton after shady investments
Akira Toriyama is mostly motivated by the comedic elements of Dragon Ball at this point. He’s not invested enough to craft a more intricate narrative with serious characterization. Which is why competent serious characters such a Goku and even Gohan are often reduced to the same gag repeatedly. But what’s more is that the same narrative beats about progression are also used over again. Akira Toriyama struggles writing completely straightforward and serious characters I believe this is why he replaced Gohan in the Buu arc. The more comedic elements of Goku allowed him more wiggle room as well as a the exaggerated attitude of Vegeta. Hence Gohan had to also be reduced to a joke, of forgetting his training multiple times. You will see a similar pattern with lots of DBZ characters.
While I agree with most of this Gohan never forgets his training he just dosent do it untill right before top where even in super hero he states he dose still train
But Gohan dose not like fighting he dosent want to train nor dose he enjoy it
@ShirouBrando Gohan didn't like training, but he still did it growing up all the time because he understood his responsibility to protect earth and his family.
It never sat right with me that Gohan would completely neglect training after Goku died. It implies Gohan is stupid and/or irresponsible that he figured no one stronger than Cell will show up, or that somehow magically things will work out if that happens even with Goku no longer around. And at least partially because Gohan slacked off earth was indeed destroyed by Buu.
@@regulator062 I completely agree. Especially after having access to SSJ2 and having the realization that sometimes you HAVE to fight...Gohan just stopping training makes zero sense particularly when you consider how intelligent he's supposed to be.
@@ShirouBrando
"But Gohan dose not like fighting he dosent want to train nor dose he enjoy it"
He definitely doesn't enjoy fighting the same way Goku does, but, however, I do feel the need to remind you that he became the Great Saiyaman of his own volition. Anything after the Buu arc is, well, you know.
@regulator062
Honestly always assumed it was mostly arrogance and a lack of real interest in training, not really irresponsibility. He was like 18 in the Buu arc.
@@Deagle2751To be fair being the Great Saiyaman is less about fighting and more about just being cool superhero guy who helps people. The people he deals with are just rando thugs that I wouldn't even say he really has to fight as much as just easily manhandle. I wouldn't call restraining toddlers fighting for example and the difference between Gohan and normal humans is waaaay bigger than just an adult and a toddler.
Basically Gohan is doing it to help people and do cool poses but him beating bad guys up is the means to the end. I don't think he started doing it because he liked fighting and wanted to fight I just think he started doing it because he knows he's so strong he wouldn't even NEED to fight in any real way but it would keep people safe. I do still think he's an idiot for not training even just an hour a day if he does in fact want to keep people safe even if he doesn't want to HAVE to fight.
What sucks is that I think there is still room for Goku to grow without the regression. During his life Goku has met all types of destroyers from the refined sadistic destruction of Frieza to the chaotic instinctual destruction of Buu. But Goku has never met a destoryer like Beerus. One who, while certainly not the nicest guy around, isn't necessarily evil either. Beerus destroys out of the necessity to maintain balance in the universe. I think it would've been a real moral quandry for Goku to see millions of innocents erased from existence for no reason other than "balance"
Maybe the key to accessing god ki/Ultra Instinct could've been balancing the light and darkness in one's heart like how the Supreme Kais and Gods of Destruction are two sides of the same coin representing the light of creation and the darkness of destruction.
TFS in the Buu bits said that GT ruined Pan, but Super committed a crime that’s significantly worse, which is ruining Goku (Goku turning into a kid in GT was a nerf that I appreciated because it raised some tension, it didn’t ruin Goku’s mentality, and it made SSJ4 much more impactful). It’s that and also Super having no soul and general plan for long-term storytelling that makes the series worse than GT in my opinion. I woke up from the hype and realized that this franchise has become a shell of its former self, and that Super is such a blatant cash-grab that it’s no longer worth my time. Super is for the fans who think that Dragon Ball is great exclusively for the action, transformations, and explosions. But those aspects are not what make this franchise great, as well as other beloved, action, anime franchises like Naruto.
As much as I like DBZA, its impact on fans ruined the franchise as well, because of TFS’ exaggerated changes, like Goku being an idiotic, bad father and the entire franchise having no stakes and consequences because of the existence of the Dragon Balls. DBZA is meant to be a parody, but there are stupid fans that think these changes are canon. As a result, the existence of Super adapted those changes that TFS left behind. This is why Dragon Ball Super shouldn’t be canon, because instead of it taking place in the original universe that Toriyama and Toei created, Super takes place in a different universe that’s similar to the abridged universe that TFS created.
I don't think Akira realized any of that, he probably just forgot he hadn't used those concepts in such a way before with Goku so he introduced them in his martial arts narrative without knowing he was retreading old ground.
You make a fair point, Toriyama is indeed forgetful like that 🤔
@@CAGExplains Especially if we factor in it had been 18 years since he wrote Dragon Ball.
A recipe for disaster lol.
No. Stop with this nonsense. Toriyama just likes silly stuff… he loves humor and he takes things in a very lighthearted way. He doesn’t identify with the serious tone of Z anymore. He prefers to tell stories in a way that is not that serious.
That’s like the most toriyama thing ever
I'm going to be honest with you, I don't think Toriyama is as forgetful as people make him out to be. I genuinely think he uses it as an excuse most of the time to explain any plot holes or inconsistencies that arise from any changes he makes for convenience.
The storyline needs to reconnect with its roots in “Journey to the West”, if only thematically. If we saw more of Goku and Vegeta’s progression into disciplined and enlightened martial artists through meditation and peace, these wild power ups would make way more sense. They would also facilitate character progression.
Also, they could've taken a page from GT's book and copied one of its better traits: one of the transformations being the result of finally mastering the Oozaru for Goku, and requiring the acceptance of help from Vegeta. Granted it would probably be different in most ways, but using those overall themes would likely help flesh out the plot better. Goku's greatest weakness, the thing he has run from, is the Oozaru. Others removed it from him, and he has never shown any sense of wanting to connect with that part of his heritage. This could have even been incited by some plot which causes Goku to encounter Bardock, which would make sense since he was a warrior until that one side story Toriyama made made him into a scientist like that one translation error. However the tail could be regrown would probably be easy for Goku to accept, if he accepted the idea of accepting his heritage. Meanwhile, Vegeta would be disgusted by the need to ask for help, but tempted by the opportunity to reconnect more fully with his heritage, and be able to fully redeem that part of himself. The two would have opposing arcs towards the same result, making the two actually gaining the same ability be a thematically satisfying result, since both grew to about the same place in order to achieve it, just from opposing angles.
that’s exactly the direction they’re headed in. ultra instinct and ultra ego are the only forms in the entire franchise that revolve around goku and vegeta’s Character and their journeys. Yet like always y’all will still find ways to complain lol
@@leultrainstinct406 I mean, I personally love Ultra Instinct conceptually, but kinda hate that it's a transformation outside of the fact it's funny to mention in versus debates due to how absurd it is. It was conceptually introduced not as a transformation, but as a fighting style, which was in fact based on the perfection of one's muscle memory, the ability to fight without thinking, which is the stated end goal of most martial arts. It's cool as a fighting style, but having it be a flashy transformation robbed it of its worth, and just made it another powerup but with a slightly greater emphasis on small dodging motions. Ultra Ego meanwhile is fully out of left field, no explanation, and while I don't hate it as a contrast to Ultra Instinct, it suffers from the fact Ultra Instinct is a powerup at all, because it means in terms of power Goku and Vegeta are still close. Ultra Instinct, structurally, is martial arts. It is perfection of technique to the point you can outdo any stronger opponent. Ultra Ego would be much better if it were the opposite in more ways than just "tank the hits rather than dodging" with it instead forming from a focus on drawing out your own raw power, and focusing on that regardless of any technique you might lose along the way. It is executed alright, but what it is contrasting with makes it worse than what it would be if UI was just a fighting style so good that Goku was able to actually outplay stronger opponents consistently enough to win, power discrepancy be damned. Also, the manga version of Goku gaining the technique from focusing on all he had learned from his earlier mentors, while a bit less grandiose than what it could be, is better. The fact Goku wasn't just raw powering against Jiren there the whole time, was better. But then the Moro saga version of the form was more focused on the power in some respects, which forced it back from where it could've been if the fact Goku just fights better now had been the focus (also the form itself, while not terrible, is unnecessary. Have Whis say that in mastering the style he was able to unlock the ability to transform into a form that can use a small amount of angelic ki if you want a new form to go with it. Have Goku be perpetually that good at fighting, no matter what form he's in, because that's what learning a fighting style should be, which is what Ultra Instinct is supposed to be based on how it is described pre ToP.)
Based
They could have at least taken a page out of the Buu Saga where meditating allows you to unlock new forms like Ultimate/Mystic.
To add to this, paraphrasing a quote from Toriyama saying he hated how they portrayed Goku in the Z anime as the righteous hero and ignored the certain "toxic" aspect of his character of how he ultimately relishes the chance to fight strong opponents regardless circumstances. Maybe this was his way of making sure that they didnt make that same mistake again.
To be fair a lot of toriyama's takes seem to be unpopular. He wrote the minus version of bardock but everyone likes the bardock special. He wrote android 19 and 20 to be the main villains of the android arc but his editors changed it. He even wanted db to be mostly like the first arc but was again made to change due to the first arc being a flop. It is scary that now his takes are being followed without any editing.
@@Buzz956 I have no doubt that Toriyama himself makes alot of poor decisions. I think many of these great creative minds need people around them to keep their ideas in check as to what is actually best. Another comparison is Hideo Kojima, created some of the greatest games made IMO, but as soon as he was given too much control over his own projects without anyone to oppose him on dumb decisions or nurture the good ones, it very much began to negatively impact the quality of his games post MGS3.
@@ContagionV Akira Toriyama is Dead😭😭😭😭😭😭😭.
@@orangeslash1667 a friend just told me about 40 minutes ago, very sad day. Without Dragon Quest and Dragonball, so many other things wouldn't even exist.
Goku, Vegeta, Master Roshi, Yamcha, Bardock, Broly, the entire saiyan race...
bro decided to kill everything in order to keep the show running.
Thank you for addressing this.
Toriyama may have had a problem with the focused and heroic Goku (dub dialouge aside Goku was always pretty damn heroic and stood by his friends and family) but Super is a crime.
Made me look back at GT and say, "maybe I was too hard on it".
You're one of the few people I've heard say that.
Thanks! I'm glad you appreciated the video 🔥
At the very least I can say the design for SSJ4 Goku is better than all of Goku's new Super transformations
Gt was hella stupid I'ma be real with you. The characters were wasted the series could have literally ended by baby just taking over Goku's body but he didn't. He had multiple opportunities. The black star dragon balls existing made no sense and don't get me started on super 17. When hell opened up where was Broly? Cooler was there like dude wtf. The ending was fitting tho and i liked most of the shadow dragons but it still can't save the show
@IkariSonBroly Oh, GT was a goddamn mess. The black star dragon balls were cool in concept, but made little sense. Like everything else in the show but at least Goku was still the guy we knew and loved.
I had to give it that much. That and I always thought the design for SSJ4 Gogeta was...kinda cool
@@IsaacGravityGT was not really a mess it was just poisoned with expectations. It felt more like DBZ than Super ever did and the sub is GOATED.
Who remembers that Speech Goku gave vegeta when buuhan was about to destroy them? That speech he gave still gives me chills
Not really
About Bu killing their family?
You know how Super could’ve gone to keep an engaging story? Keep Goku the same mature, kindhearted martial artist he grew into while making the SSG form contingent upon Saiyan anger. You can have the Beerus stuff, have the prophecy, and have the five pure hearted Saiyans ritual, but then make the form’s very existence possible due to Saiyan anger.
BoG ends basically the same way, but afterward, for the first time in his life, Vegeta starts surpassing Goku. Vegeta’s entire life as an anger-dominated warrior benefits his use of SSG. Goku’s entire life training as a calm, meditative martial artist actually hinders his use of it. Sure, he has anger, but he’s spent his whole life learning how to temper it.
This makes Vegeta a legitimate rival again and gives Goku a huge obstacle to overcome. To achieve higher power, he seemingly needs to go against his training. This creates conflict.
Vegeta is the one to get the win on Frieza. Future Trunks should’ve happened differently, but that’s a different topic of conversation. Then comes the ToP.
This is when Goku can achieve a new level of power with UI while still retaining who get grew into as a martial artist. Vegeta can go his way. Goku goes his own way. And then for the Moro/Granolah stuff, it can be about fusing his heritage with his upbringing.
Just spitballing, but at least you don’t sacrifice Goku’s character.
It’s bad writing at its worst. A wise and mature character doesn’t have to be boring if the story is good. Captain Picard from Star Trek TNG for example is a highly mature and competent character and he is beloved by millions of people and the show is fascinating. Mature characters can still face difficult situations. A show like Dragon Ball contains many characters that could be used to tell interesting stories. But unfortunately, most characters have been sidelined.
Also, as Picard has put it: “It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness; that is life.”
And so it could be with Goku. He should be put in situations like that. We could see him deal with loss, regret, or maybe we could see him win things other than fights. Have him face more complex challenges than "must fight strong guy".
Dragon Ball Multiverse had fascinating stories, even though not all of them were centered on Goku. How did they managed that but Toriyama & Toei can’t?
The DBS manga actually fixes the meditation line by having him say "Training through meditation? *You* of all people?"
That's actually a pretty funny line. 😂 Also fits in better with how the characters work.
I did appreciate the manga fixing the meditation line, but then they still had Vegeta lecture Goku on something he already knew right after.
He still already saw vegeta meditation
Doesn't matter since whis still lash him for being someone who only knows how to train his body and compliments Vegeta
So he went from dumbass to condescending af
Goku is literally the only manga protagonist who started his journey as a kid and actually grow up and still remain the protagonist of the story even as a grandfather.
Also Goku didn't always wanted to have a sparring partner. When he fought stronger people his goal was to win. He didn't just want to strong opponents he wanted to defeat them.
Not just that, he knew what needed to be done. He was super serious in the Manga when it was on the line...which was ever fight unless it was a tournament match or sparring
this doesnt feel true, but i dont read enough manga to disprove it
My man there's a lot of manga that started as a kid and remain the main character lol.
@@watchmehope6560 name me 3 manga where the protagonist was a kid in the first arc and still remained protagonist as a grandfather.
That’s because all the antagonists wanted to destroy the planet, while in Super, the only antagonists that want to destroy the planet or have malicious intentions are Frieza, for obvious reasons, and Zamasu, and because of time travel and multiverse theory, it always had to happen. Everything else was either a tournament or Beerus looking for a rival
I really liked this video. You made lots of great points and had a lot of great evidence too. Excellent job, man.
It's way simpler than people think. Toriyama is just a person. A person with flaws. He wants to quit the work of Dragonball but doesn't want to, or can't let go of the power that comes with it. Everyone wants him to keep making stories, or so he thinks. George Lucas had the same problem.
So as a creator how do you fix it?
He may be destroying his characters to get fans to ease off. He gets the best of both worlds. Die-hard fans will still have interest and buy products, while Toe will stop asking him to do more work.. He's probably deeply conflicted, not wanting to fully entrust a new writer who may do better than him. He's shooting himself and his fans in the foot.
I think the part that rankles me the most is the fact that eithe Gohan or Oob could have become the new protagonist had Toriyama been willing/able to, but rebooting Dragonball without Goku as the main character would be a risk that I don't think any publisher would want to take.
Rewatch the first bit of Z. They definitely tried to set Gohan up as the main, he was just too lame.
@@AngryJTWhat sucks is by the end he wasn't even too lame Toriyama just doesn't have the slightest clue how to write him so every opportunity he has to make him not suck he fails at and just resets all of Gohan's progress to being a consistent fighter. Bro had to relearn his potential unlocked form like three times in super and I'm just sitting here like "wait didn't we already do this...?"
I want to say Toriyama did say Gohan was going to take over but then he realized he didn't know how to write the man as a believable protagonist. Because Goku's motive is I wanna fight lets fight we're going to fight which makes it dead simple to, ya know, get him in a fight and Gohan is...literally even slightly more complicated and the man just gave right up and went back to Goku before the Buu arc got into swing.
@@Pragabond at least we got Gohan's PTSD induced Great Saiyaman.
Goku also became such an icon and was too popular. It was another reason why gohan was slotted out.
Is uub not oob
This just proves Dragon Ball Super is not a "sequel" to Z but a (soft) reboot of Dragon Ball series as a whole. Not to mention God-forms basically being recolors made for toy-sales
My head canon had always been that Goku has received too many blows to the head that it's affecting him mentally
And here I was beginning to think he was just a big DBZA fan.
I think Goku would have been more interesting if the expanded on the idea from Battle of Gods; Goku coming to terms with the fact that he could not progress without others
The idea that he's completely peaked without any form of assistance, and that he's unsatisfied with the fact that he himself can't get the power that he's been granted. I feel this idea pairs well with the T.o.P.'s major theme of Trust and Friendship, and holds very true to the ideal of Martial Arts, and even the first lesson Roshi wanted to teach his students in the second arc of the entire show.
You could even couple it with Ultra Instinct, and have Goku trying every option to do something himself. A character flaw stemmed from dissatisfaction that he cannot figure out how to get even higher without cheat codes. This could have expanded into Goku training his base form to the point of Ultra Instinct, where his fundamentals and understanding in training merge with Godlike power, where Goku is able to take *himself* to greater heights using his own skill and power, and not with the God Ki that was handed to him. And all the while coming to understand that gaining help from others to attain self-improvement is not a bad thing, comparing his and Team 7's success against the hard-headed lone wolf Jiren, making even Jiren a more interesting character by comparison
But no Goku has to not know what kissing is despite literally being kissed by Chi-Chi right after his proposal
It’s all really annoying because as you pointed out there are still lots of other Character flaws for Goku to develop that don’t step on his old growth. It might have been more interesting if Whis wrote on Goku‘s shirt. Goku notices it immediately as it happens but he is troubled by the fact that he is not fast enough to do anything about it. Maybe this isn’t as interesting of a development but it would fit his character at this point better.
Alternatively Goku could notice it right after it happens and mentions it before whis can. At least it’s more consistent.
Damn, you should’ve written super
@@DaniG.German883 Facts
@@DaniG.German883 Fun Fact: The only reason why Dragon ball is still going is because Akira Toriyama hated Dragon Ball Evolution the film.
Other wise Akira Toriyama would have ended the series for good.
This is why DB and DBZ should be the only canon.
Another huge aspect missing from the revival era is the inclusion of the rest of the cast. As DragonBall went on, the focus increasingly shifted towards only the strongest characters, and in Super it is only the Goku and Vegeta show. What made the Saiyan, Freeza, and Android sagas so great was the dynamics between the cast. Taking down the villain was a group effort filled with desperation, changing loyalties, shifts in power. Starting with the Buu saga, protecting the earth became almost a secondary concern, with the undo button of the dragonballs being over-relied upon. Remember how during both the Freeza and part of the Androids saga we didn't even have Dragonballs. New DragonBall is missing all of that.
Everyone likes to say GT was bad, but ignores character assassinations in Super
Well at least they're not immature enough to always compare GT to super.
Even DBZA had the courtesy to keep Goku a savant.
He's meant to be a brilliant fighter and strategist, not a brute.
It's why forms like the really buff Super Saiyan were rejected by Goku and Vegeta, whom had more experience, but used by Trunks whom just saw the numbers.
Goku can still be aloof, but it needs to be offset with moments of genuine casual brilliance.
Like, why _didn't_ Goku point out how repetitive the training with Whis was? He already learned all of this and never got Ultra Instinct before, so clearly there had to be something missing.
But nope! Just undo his progress and have him relearn old tricks for the new powerup. We got merch to sell!
Fully agree on Oob. I am so sad that we will probably never get a Series with Oob as a protagonist. He would just be such a logical choice for a follow-up of Dragonball Z. Him being the reincarnation of Boo has a lot of potential for dramatic weight. Like maybe a powerup when Oob is confronting his shadow? We could also see Son Goku being a completed character and serving as a mentor. Hell, you know, it would be cool if Goku made sure that Oob learns the same lesson, Master Roshi taught him: There is always someone better. It would be interesting to see how Oob handles things differently from Goku or how their characters are similar/different.
It’s spelt Buu.
No, it's spelled Uub
Buu is such a nothing to the story in general it's not even funny. Beerus and Granolah/Gas have at least something to do with the Saiyans. Buu in the other hand? Not only he added nothing to the story but it was quite literally outclassed by Moro, another character that had nothing to do with anything but he was at least treating. Now Uub it's an even bigger nothing than Buu was. The fan base thinks Uub is so special because "Ohh he was evil and he reincarnated into someone good" when that's how Hell literally works in the Manga. Unless you're a special case like Goku, Vegeta when he was spared as backup if stuff with Buu were so escalate further and Frieza who's such a prick that he refuses to move on. Other than that every single soul that's been dead for a good while goes through the same process of reincarnation. Meaning Raditz reincarnated, Cell reincarnated (hence why they made a new one instead of using the old one) Bardock already reincarnated, meaning Uub is not special at all. The only thing King Yema (And Dende in Super) did was told Goku "Hey, buu's reincarnation is here, go say hi" and that's it.
@@diegomedina9637 The point of Uub was to become another successor that could help protect earth. One of the major lessons Goku learned during the Buu saga was that finding someone exactly like him to protect the earth was impossible. Gohan is strong but doesn't enjoy fighting like Goku, Goten and Trunks have a lot of potential but are still too young and have much to learn. Uub was created to become a pillar of succession and also cement a mentor relationship with Goku which would've been carried on into future works. Until DBS retconned it. Also Buu was pretty threatening, he murked/absorbed a lot of the cast, and kid buu even destroyed earth, going as far as to spin up to heaven to beat them all up again.
@@diegomedina9637if u think buu added nothing to the story, u REALLY REALLY did not watch that arc lol. All the characters tied to buu and the reason he even appeared in the first place.
The truth is Goku mental comes from that fall he suffered years ago & now it’s coming to haunt him in Super! He didn’t even know what a kiss was! WTF!
You know... People often shit on GT for having bad story. And while that will be subjective, it didn't necessarily sacifice Goku's character to tell that story, just his age when he regressed back into a child. But he still had all the teachings, the skills, the foundation of being a martial artist who has been humbled and molded into a competent fighter and teacher to the next generation. Yes, Uub or Pan could have been the main protagonists, I will agree to that since that's usually the best option when a character has completed his story. But considering how people reacted to Gohan's ascension to main protag role, or in the case of Naruto to Boruto, how people took to Boruto like oil to water, it gives this mentality that "People don't like change". So of course the writers - either the GT writers or Super writers - aren't going to change protagonists if people aren't willing to accept change. So instead, something else had to give. With GT, it was Goku's age so it could be like the days before Z, when things were more simpler - essentially taking the Buu arc approach but extended; with Super, it was Goku's character.
Basically, you have three pills: Red has you retire the main character in place of a new one (student or offspring) with qualities that may not be to your liking initially and going through the same or similar journey as their predecessor; Blue has you sacrifice the main character's character in order to force character growth that they had already went through, just with much higher stakes; and Green has you sacrifice the main character's age in order give a nostalgic feeling to days of old. You can only choose one, but which one are you more willing to accept? Me personally, I choose Red since its natural for a series to want to progress with a new protagonist and retire the old one as the central character while maintaining a main character role as a mentor figure to rely on or a father figure to have as support.
Good explanation on why I dislike DBSuper from the beginning. The one thing I don't agree on is the final conclusion. One Punch Man has already proven it's very much possible to write a battle shounen story with a protagonist at the peak of their power while still managing to keep things fresh and entertaining. Actually, Toriyama already had this stuff figured out way back in DBZ by just coming up with excuses for Goku to not be around most of the time until he was actually needed.
Dragon Ball could learn a lot from One Punch Man, ironically. Hell, the best part of Super Hero was the fact that Goku never showed up to beat the big bad for everyone. It was mostly about the secondary characters, the "next generation" so to speak. Give me more of that!
@@SomeRandomJackAss We didnt get too much Goku. We got too much dumbass. It made sense for characters to hold off the bad guys until Goku arrived back then but a majority of these guys are God level now so it wouldnt make sense. I'd prefer they just not make SSB lame as hell.