How do you control for child trying to guess what the adults expect of him, and not tell what he actually thinks himself? I remember this mindset from the time I was a kid.
Exactly! How stupid is that?? Also, for "3 year old Ross": those little kids can hardly process all those complicated "adult sentences" and logical constructs, implications, conditionals etc. at all! They react to keywords, accents, and -- as you say -- expectations read right from the eyes of the adults. Look at the long processing times, the strong eye contacts, all the uncertainties: the clearly visible readiness to change the answer promptly, upon sensing disapproval. (A counter-probe should have done just that...) Piaget himself noted that in this preoperational phase children can't yet understand logic and cannot actually manipulate information. So there. ;)
+Dmitry Egorov But, I think that's the point. Children, before they learn that they can successfully manipulate those around him, respond in the manner they instinctively believe will have the most positive outcome. Afterwards, the child now realizes that he/she can manipulate to produce outcomes he/she desires.
THIS. I can read this kid like a book. He's trying to say the right answer despite what he knows. You just need to change the way you ask him: instead of "what did you think was in the box before I opened it?" you just need to ask "Do you remember what you thought was in the box before I showed you?" and he'll nod and then you ask "What was it?" and he'll say "Juice". NEXT
I'm watching all these videos from the point of view of a dog behavior specialist and it's intriguing to see what dogs can and can't do to sort of pin point there human-equivalent abilities. It's not easy because their way of thinking is in some ways similar and others very different. I find that they can cooperate like older humans (5 years olds) according to other videos. But it also seems to be that they think people know what they know, more like 3 year olds. They are able to deceive in a way, but more along the logic of "I'll get the other dog interested in that toy B so I can steal toy A". But not in the way to hide their own interest in a specific toy. They are able to pretend to like a toy, but not pretend to dislike a toy they actually like.
+Nico Bottema Or were taught to ignore by society, which insists on adherence to social constructs - code for "fake realities" that we enforce through our own creation and adherence.
That would be very easy to test. Two kids in separate rooms, one gets shown the "ropes" in the box, after which they would ask the other kid what's in it. You seem to be proposing that he would guess ropes.
I see the same difficulties as you in that experiment. To me, the old study published by Wimmer & Perner is still the best (Wimmer, H., Perner, J. (1983). Beliefs About Beliefs. Cognition, 13, 103-128). Usha Goswami discusses Wimmer & Perner's experiment in her brillant book "Cognitive Development - The Learning Brain" from 2008 (my personal "Bible of cognitive child development" ...). Good luck with your study!
this is amazing. im just writing a research design to test theory of mind and though id check some videos.could it be that perhaps the complexity of the story is what is hard for the child to understand (follow the sequences) and not so much the actual thinking of the mom? im trying to eliminate confounding variables on my research...
@sensualwisdom570 The whole point is to figure out how to children thinks, that they are egocentric : which means that they believe everyone thinks and sees the same things as they do. They're not destroying a child's innocence. They are trying to prove a theory, Either way, how would making ribbons come out of a juice box make a child less innocent? It's not like the ribbons will harm the child. I don't think the child thinks that ribbons always come out of juice boxes just because it did once
I done the sticker and puppet thing with my niece who will be 4 in 3 months. She knew exactly what the monkey was doing and done what that second little boy done (the older boy)
These experiments are a bit misleading since the child might be thinking that saying that he wants the sticker that he does not like is a lie and that its not good to tell lies
In the monkey experiment, when she pulls out the monkey, do younger children realise that it's the monkey speaking? Could they not think that she is still simply asking them a question? That would explain why their answers are sincere.
I think their on the cusp; they can Play and suspend disbelief and still make sound reasoning. I think in sound reasoning premises needn't be true just logical.
Honestly, I wish for Katie to get caught in the funniest way possible. Mom: "JOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!" Jon: "Hey Katie, It's Dinner time!" Katie (talking with food clearly in her mouth): "Jomm ay ve muff'ms!" *Mom and Jon turn to Katie. Katie's cheeks are clearly puffed a little.* Mom: "What do you got in your mouth, young lady?" Katie: "Nuff'm! Jomm ate 'mm!" Mom: "And why are you wearing Jon's boots?" Katie: "Jomm put em on me?" Mom: "And you kept them on?" *Katie sweats profusely*
Did you see how shiny and cool the rocket ship sticker was? Hahaha the kid is being primed to choose that one as his favourite; he isn't lying. A three year old boy is going to go for the bright, colourful sticker not the plain, dull one. The whole experiment is to show that a kid his age doesn't know how to lie and manipulate like that because their theory of mind isn't developed. :) x
why not try it on a little child you know. The same thing will happen. btw 3 year old children can understand speech that fast, or faster depending on if u are brought up and are surrounded by people who talk fast, like in the northern US states. instead of being so immature that you have to insult people who know how to scientifically deduce an answer.
@lavieennoire no, I beg to differ. The child must have been taught that juice comes out of the box just like any other person would think would come out of a juice box. For an authorative figure too try too make the child think any different I believe again is an attempt too perverse their innocence because they are taking advantage. The child is saying what he has been taught. If he was not taught that juice comes out of the box he would have said I dont know. Why attempt to teach ribbons?
@sensualwisdom570 I think you're overestimating the possible effects of this experiment, they wouldn't teach or impress the child with anything that either couldn't be corrected or would have long term detrimental social effects on the child, that would be unethical... or you could be trollin
Would you kindly tell me what episode this is from? I recognize the voice...isn't this the same guy who does Scientific American Frontiers? I'm trying to locate the original video / episode that this would be on. Please help! Thanks so much!
07:09 he has learned "how to say lie ".after growing up , he will countiune to say lies about his own oppenions to cheat someone. and if we see a kid who be able to say lie,we say "ohh the kid is 'smart' " :D . therefore,first kid looks like that ,"he is not smart". beause he always said the truth. in conclusion, if the ability of using mind grows, the ability of being immorality grows too.thats how humanity found religions and trade. same tricks: i have heaven and hell ; i have gold and shiny stone.
@annefien Again, I beg to differ, the young boy said juice then she displayed ribbons. You claim that he will not mimic this nonsensical taunt. So why would he say "Jess" would think there are ribbons in the box. Jean Piaget Schemata and stages display the neurological abilities and how they are displayed at different ages. Why try to manipulate? Would you like a cup of "Waiting for Superman" as well to go with the muffins?
5:42 I would do the same. Of course I wouldn't deceive the monkey. Some people are actually honest and wouldn't tell lies even if it's just a harmless game.
It's not just about lies and manipulation though, it means children can learn empathy. They can understand that other people have thoughts, if they take a toy from another child they will have another toy, but that child will now be unhappy. It's their mind starting to recognise the thoughts of others :)
katheriner10 I know, I just don't like a part of it, what they said in this video. By the way, it is not the child's problem when the other child is unhappy. The unhappy child has to make himself happy, by asking the toy back, standing up for himself, both children can learn in this situation.
The first thing he said is juice, now he trusted the authorative figure who represents his parents and trusted. Why would she make ribbons come out the box? From 0-6 years children are like sponges..Their knowledge is acquired by those around them..I am still a bit perplexed by the first situation where the woman put ribbons in the juice box? That is not reality. Now he would look dumb if he is in the store saying where's the ribbons in the juice box..lol.. Perversion of innocent induced here..
Patrick grew up to be a world-renowned con-artist.
Lmfao.
I'm about to take a child's favorite sticker and there's nothing they can do about it
Plot twist: They were lying to the human too
Daddy Thiccums Monkeys aren’t human
Instructor: "So who will mom think ate the muffin?"
Boy: "Katie"
*Horror audio*
Bru I was half-asleep watching this now I am lowkey scared.
I'm screaming, the pure look of relief in patricks eyes when he realised, he had indeed.
Fooled the monkey
What if he just doesn't understand the meaning of the words?
"What did you think was inside the box?" He may just dont understand the past tense well.
How do you control for child trying to guess what the adults expect of him, and not tell what he actually thinks himself? I remember this mindset from the time I was a kid.
Exactly! How stupid is that?? Also, for "3 year old Ross": those little kids can hardly process all those complicated "adult sentences" and logical constructs, implications, conditionals etc. at all!
They react to keywords, accents, and -- as you say -- expectations read right from the eyes of the adults. Look at the long processing times, the strong eye contacts, all the uncertainties: the clearly visible readiness to change the answer promptly, upon sensing disapproval. (A counter-probe should have done just that...)
Piaget himself noted that in this preoperational phase children can't yet understand logic and cannot actually manipulate information. So there. ;)
+Dmitry Egorov But, I think that's the point. Children, before they learn that they can successfully manipulate those around him, respond in the manner they instinctively believe will have the most positive outcome. Afterwards, the child now realizes that he/she can manipulate to produce outcomes he/she desires.
THIS. I can read this kid like a book. He's trying to say the right answer despite what he knows. You just need to change the way you ask him: instead of "what did you think was in the box before I opened it?" you just need to ask "Do you remember what you thought was in the box before I showed you?" and he'll nod and then you ask "What was it?" and he'll say "Juice". NEXT
@@lordoa nah bro all these UA-cam comments are from professors of psychology they must be true
That in itself would demonstrate theory of mind, no?
doesn't the adult factor makes jacob always tell the truth? I mean, for the fear of being apprehended for lying
"He also believes if he think something so must everyone else" Adults also think like that :)
0:23 What's in the box?
JACOB. *WHAT'S IN THE F... BOX ?!!*
Children are wonderfully honest. It's a good quality.
I'm watching all these videos from the point of view of a dog behavior specialist and it's intriguing to see what dogs can and can't do to sort of pin point there human-equivalent abilities. It's not easy because their way of thinking is in some ways similar and others very different. I find that they can cooperate like older humans (5 years olds) according to other videos. But it also seems to be that they think people know what they know, more like 3 year olds. They are able to deceive in a way, but more along the logic of "I'll get the other dog interested in that toy B so I can steal toy A". But not in the way to hide their own interest in a specific toy. They are able to pretend to like a toy, but not pretend to dislike a toy they actually like.
What if children are connected to some collective consciousness that we all forgot about growing up :o
+Nico Bottema Or were taught to ignore by society, which insists on adherence to social constructs - code for "fake realities" that we enforce through our own creation and adherence.
That would be very easy to test. Two kids in separate rooms, one gets shown the "ropes" in the box, after which they would ask the other kid what's in it. You seem to be proposing that he would guess ropes.
I see the same difficulties as you in that experiment. To me, the old study published by Wimmer & Perner is still the best (Wimmer, H., Perner, J. (1983). Beliefs About Beliefs. Cognition, 13, 103-128). Usha Goswami discusses Wimmer & Perner's experiment in her brillant book "Cognitive Development - The Learning Brain" from 2008 (my personal "Bible of cognitive child development" ...). Good luck with your study!
I'm learning this in psych!
this is amazing. im just writing a research design to test theory of mind and though id check some videos.could it be that perhaps the complexity of the story is what is hard for the child to understand (follow the sequences) and not so much the actual thinking of the mom? im trying to eliminate confounding variables on my research...
@sensualwisdom570
The whole point is to figure out how to children thinks, that they are egocentric : which means that they believe everyone thinks and sees the same things as they do. They're not destroying a child's innocence. They are trying to prove a theory, Either way, how would making ribbons come out of a juice box make a child less innocent? It's not like the ribbons will harm the child. I don't think the child thinks that ribbons always come out of juice boxes just because it did once
I done the sticker and puppet thing with my niece who will be 4 in 3 months. She knew exactly what the monkey was doing and done what that second little boy done (the older boy)
Arent they just saying that they always thought there are ropes because that would appear to be the right answer?
1:30 is when I realized Alan Alda was narrating.
Pretty sure Alan Alda is narrating this.
I thought that it was Alan Alda as well.
That's because it is. This is from the series Scientific American Frontiers, which Mr. Alda narrated.
I know a 3 year old who I think will catch on immediately. Trying it tomorrow
4:15 that sound made jump out of my bed i got so freaking scared dude omg
is that alan alda talking?
Yes it is. The full episode is available on UA-cam. Scientific American Frontiers, episode is called, "It's a Kid's World".
1 person= true knowledge 👏
I LOVE the creepy piano chord at 4:16!!! It basically says, "Get a load of this freaky kid who doesn't know a damn thing about anything!!!" LOL.
Children are HILARIOUS!
These experiments are a bit misleading since the child might be thinking that saying that he wants the sticker that he does not like is a lie and that its not good to tell lies
Innocence+Dumbness = 3-4 years old Kid.
Innocence+Intelligence= Godliness!
The split between the mind and the world....
There's a link to this video in one of the UK's Exam Board specifications
You thought it was juice and I knew the difference between ribbons and ropes at 3
There are adults like this.
In the monkey experiment, when she pulls out the monkey, do younger children realise that it's the monkey speaking? Could they not think that she is still simply asking them a question? That would explain why their answers are sincere.
I think their on the cusp; they can Play and suspend disbelief and still make sound reasoning. I think in sound reasoning premises needn't be true just logical.
Hello Anders,
Which Nova video did this clip come from?
Thanks
LOL ROPES
well they know how to lie just not very well.
Honestly, I wish for Katie to get caught in the funniest way possible.
Mom: "JOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!"
Jon: "Hey Katie, It's Dinner time!"
Katie (talking with food clearly in her mouth): "Jomm ay ve muff'ms!"
*Mom and Jon turn to Katie. Katie's cheeks are clearly puffed a little.*
Mom: "What do you got in your mouth, young lady?"
Katie: "Nuff'm! Jomm ate 'mm!"
Mom: "And why are you wearing Jon's boots?"
Katie: "Jomm put em on me?"
Mom: "And you kept them on?"
*Katie sweats profusely*
Maybe that's what the kid was thinking and just forgot to say it out loud
I am joking but that would be funny
Did you see how shiny and cool the rocket ship sticker was? Hahaha the kid is being primed to choose that one as his favourite; he isn't lying. A three year old boy is going to go for the bright, colourful sticker not the plain, dull one. The whole experiment is to show that a kid his age doesn't know how to lie and manipulate like that because their theory of mind isn't developed. :) x
I think the small and big shoe leaving print story is too complicated for any smal child to make a judgement on them.
why not try it on a little child you know. The same thing will happen. btw 3 year old children can understand speech that fast, or faster depending on if u are brought up and are surrounded by people who talk fast, like in the northern US states. instead of being so immature that you have to insult people who know how to scientifically deduce an answer.
What if Jacob is trying to show the adults that he is very honest, despite honesty can hurt him
The narrator sounds like Alan Alda.
@lavieennoire no, I beg to differ. The child must have been taught that juice comes out of the box just like any other person would think would come out of a juice box. For an authorative figure too try too make the child think any different I believe again is an attempt too perverse their innocence because they are taking advantage. The child is saying what he has been taught. If he was not taught that juice comes out of the box he would have said I dont know. Why attempt to teach ribbons?
I couldn't follow that middle story though, seriously that kid is a genius.
From which documentary is these
hey michael, vsauce's here
@sensualwisdom570 I think you're overestimating the possible effects of this experiment, they wouldn't teach or impress the child with anything that either couldn't be corrected or would have long term detrimental social effects on the child, that would be unethical...
or you could be trollin
Would you kindly tell me what episode this is from? I recognize the voice...isn't this the same guy who does Scientific American Frontiers? I'm trying to locate the original video / episode that this would be on. Please help! Thanks so much!
All I know is that its alan alda narrating
@lavieennoire jus ignore the hater man, he jus be trollin
07:09 he has learned "how to say lie ".after growing up , he will countiune to say lies about his own oppenions to cheat someone. and if we see a kid who be able to say lie,we say "ohh the kid is 'smart' " :D . therefore,first kid looks like that ,"he is not smart". beause he always said the truth.
in conclusion, if the ability of using mind grows, the ability of being immorality grows too.thats how humanity found religions and trade. same tricks: i have heaven and hell ; i have gold and shiny stone.
What if the kid misunderstood the question?? Did they try using an adult instead of a puppet?
@annefien Again, I beg to differ, the young boy said juice then she displayed ribbons. You claim that he will not mimic this nonsensical taunt. So why would he say "Jess" would think there are ribbons in the box. Jean Piaget Schemata and stages display the neurological abilities and how they are displayed at different ages. Why try to manipulate? Would you like a cup of "Waiting for Superman" as well to go with the muffins?
wow this is a rip off a SLP VHS tape? lol
There is a good quality one someplace on youtube :D i have seen it a while back
Is this eliminating the violation of expectation through association bias or through behavioural rules?
Is this Hawkeye Pierce narrating??
What's in the wallet?
Me: money!
Goes shopping and spends it all
Next day. What's in the wallet?
Me: money!
ok no
The kid that’s 18 months older is a lot smarter
i'm assuming a lot of us are just here because of psyc100..
5:42
I would do the same.
Of course I wouldn't deceive the monkey. Some people are actually honest and wouldn't tell lies even if it's just a harmless game.
Who's the narrator?
This reminds me of republicans.
It isn't a good thing that children learn to lie and to manipulate.
It's not just about lies and manipulation though, it means children can learn empathy. They can understand that other people have thoughts, if they take a toy from another child they will have another toy, but that child will now be unhappy. It's their mind starting to recognise the thoughts of others :)
katheriner10
I know, I just don't like a part of it, what they said in this video. By the way, it is not the child's problem when the other child is unhappy. The unhappy child has to make himself happy, by asking the toy back, standing up for himself, both children can learn in this situation.
totally normal
These experiments seem really poorly put together honestly
The first thing he said is juice, now he trusted the authorative figure who represents his parents and trusted. Why would she make ribbons come out the box? From 0-6 years children are like sponges..Their knowledge is acquired by those around them..I am still a bit perplexed by the first situation where the woman put ribbons in the juice box? That is not reality. Now he would look dumb if he is in the store saying where's the ribbons in the juice box..lol.. Perversion of innocent induced here..