Robert Seyfarth: Theory of Mind
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- Опубліковано 4 жов 2024
- Robert Seyfarth talks about how children develop a 'theory of mind'.
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Thank you for this brief explanation of the Theory of Mind. I am a bit concered about the last sentence in which is said that ToM has is not something you are born with, so it has to be learned. My understanding of ToM is that it is more a biological system that develops without theaching, yet it's development can be enhanced through social contribution (parent's use of mental state verbs, engaging pretend play, story-book reading etc). So in the end we will have children with perhaps better developed ToM and children with maybe not that great skills, yet everyone has it.
So you think it is purely a subconscious thing like sexuality?
If I recall correctly ToM uses the same parts of the brain as empathy-altruism so I would partially agree with you and yet it's not entirely correct
I was thinking the same thing and scrolled down to see if anyone else thought that...thereby exercising my Theory of Mind.
I think there may be a basic theory of mind which infants could have due to evolution. However, strictly speaking from my own stand point, much of my theory of mind (for example the influence of culture, religion, organization, gender on mind) has been learnt via interaction with people, science, media and history. So I would say much of Theory of Mind is learnt. I am not a gender expert but I can hardly imagine babies thinking about gender in their mind. So as a mammalian, I think Theories of Mind are mostly learnt.
@@ramkumarr1725 if you have many infants in a room, and one starts crying, why do they all start crying?
Love this. A very elegant example of Theory of Mind. More videos from Seyfarth please!
I’m so high I thought I was watching Walter from breaking bad.
whatcha on? and how much? i gotta recommend this to my brother and dad
Hahah
This shit had me dying lmaoo
😂👍
He also seems to be using the fact that a three year old can't do this but a six year old can to claim that theory of mind is something that is somehow learned as opposed to innate. It could be responded that just because something isn't present at birth doesn't mean it isn't an innate capacity. No-one thinks that going through puberty is anything other than an innate mechanism, for example, but it happens long after birth.
I've enjoyed all of these vids. Please keep them coming!
it gets quite solipistic towards the end. great video.
thank you RDF!
There is are a couple of great lectures about this subject on the UCTV channel. It goes into depth and is much more thorough.
I object to his last statement, "It's not something we're born with, we've got to learn it." It's true babies don't have this but children develop this ability on their own as a process of aging. It's not an attribute acquired by learning or culture.
I love **ALL** of these videos you guys put out. Very informative. We can only hope that within the somewhat near future, NO ONE will speculate about anything anymore until facts or proof present themselves accordingly. I can see where thinking like this (or any thinking for that matter) could rid the world of the mental virus of religion.
Robert Seyfarth talks about how children develop a 'theory of mind'.
Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason & Science Exactly but ghosts and reincarnations is a fact in reality.
Alex_ Rener 😂
Technically, he talks about the fact that children DOES develop a 'theory of mind', not HOW they develop it. Which is what I would like to know :)
Pretty good video explaining the Theory of Mind! Not really much else for me to say about it.
@Vinegar Third. another fine example of tautology that!
--A rhetorical tautology can also be defined as a series of statements that comprise an argument, whereby the statements are constructed in such a way that the truth of the propositions is guaranteed or that the truth of the propositions cannot be disputed by defining a term in terms of another self referentially. Consequently, the statement conveys no useful information regardless of its length or complexity making it unfalsifiable.
i remember they day i realized my sister who is a year older then me was a person too lol =p
Are you for real?
Funny, my boyfriend told me the same. He said he remembers a day when he was 4-5 years old and was at the beach playing with his sister who's a year younger than him and he suddenly realized that she was a person and had a mind just like him. So he asked her if she could see him and she was like yes?? And he was like wow (blows his mind)
It’s crazy how’s there comments 10 years ago
I think that many people don't like the thought of having someone else think that the thoughts of another person might be different from what they previously assumed them to be thinking.
True. I have met many people who are offended by hypocrisy. Saying one thing and believing something else.
@@ramkumarr1725 33 year old me thanks you for responding to a comment made by 23 year old me.
@TodaysThought I am using this as an example merely of our observations being limited by our being a different species. Just like we cannot ascribe human qualities to a dog by projecting , we cannot ascribe a lack of qualities by projecting our standards on the dog.
Dogs will for instance make all kinds of sounds to each other when communicating. How do we know whether those indicate different emotions of the dog that particular moment? We don't really so I think we should not assume we do know
Theory of mind is the ability to understand another’s intentions and motivations. There are commonly deficits in this with autism spectrum disorders and psychopathy.
Being autistic I can say with certainty we posses theory of mind when interacting with other autistics and much like we may have trouble with allistics (not autistic), allistics have an exream difficulty with theory of mind when interacting with autistics
@daniel12181961 I wish I could find the video for you. The child wasn't lead on, and they had multiple age groups to demonstrate that young children are incapable of "seeing" things from other's perspectives. This is obvious when babies play peek-a-boo and keep getting surprised when the parent "comes back" even though they were just hidden for a few moments. Children are born 100% self-centered, and gradually come to understand things like perspective and empathy.
@MicrosoftsourceCode
"Your sister" is from the start of his analogy:
"Imagine you are sitting around, telling stories with your younger sister..."
And you ask your sister "where is Sally going to look for the ball" (not "where is the ball".)
Simple.
We just learned in university that people who speak multiple languages have a better "theory of mind" than people who only speak one language. I dont really get how language is connected to this. Does someone have any knowledge on this?
Having a lack of or delay in Theory of Mind can help a person with problem solving in a group context or not.
@worsethanamistake I Think the term "theory of mind" threw you there.
What you describe as "knowing other people have thoughts" is exactly what the term refers to. It refers to children developing the idea of "mind" when they realize other people have a "mind" of their own i.e. have other thoughts.
@naturalpreservation Dude, the words I use are generally understood in the same way by a large group of readers ( whether they agree or disagree). The sentences I make with them make sense, have the same meaning to the majority of readers(whether they agree or disagree). They lead to a point I want to make fairly directly. That point makes sense and is understood by a fairly large group of readers(whether they agree or disagree).
@scuzzulus Here's what I learnt: The natural development of brain as the name suggests is different from learning. But what he's saying is that assigning a different mind to another person (so that he/she thinks and acts independent of you and has access to a different memory) is something we have to learn.
I sometimes have long discussions with simulated people. It can be quite fun. :)
Woah ur comment is from 10 years ago
can we have some new material pls? Dawkins had great debate recently in London at Barbican Life event so can we start from there?
Damn, I guessed the box.
Thank you
@naturalpreservation I do also want to thank you for the tip as it clarifies a lot about the origin of your views and use of language. Does feel a bit as a let down to realize these didn't so much originate with you though. Thought I had encountered a more original mind than it turns out. Though you do reside, as it were, in a pretty small category. Have to say, I am enjoying debating you because of that. :)
@naturalpreservation "if science is defined by prediction and prophecy"
Thanks for clearing up your views on science. Although like I have pointed out from the start about you...it really was quite clear already.
So, how's your new bible coming? I can imagine not very well if you spent all this time on Dawkins' channel?
@naturalpreservation I grasp the meaning just fine...to me as a human.
And no dude, I was referring to the physical development of the human brain and consequently it's result, which we call our mind.
@naturalpreservation Naturally at this point I have to assume we can't be sure of what your definition is for any term which you use.
The fact is that whenever asked to elucidate on the definitions you have a hard time explaining them in less than equally vague manner as in which you use them.
And thank you btw for finally doing so at least regarding your use of speed! That clears something up as indeed I am of course aware of this use of "speed" when speaking of culture
Very nice!
This is things i've been thinking on. Very interesting
@naturalpreservation LOL no dude, my intent has been clear from the start. I am indeed saying humans are just another species. In fact I put it earlier thus "we are unique but not unique in our uniqueness"
@naturalpreservation And FYI many times meteorites approaching earth are discovered by regular folk using basic home telescopes and missed by the bigger science run ones. Which means by that time they are already pretty close. The sky is vast dude and we as of yet do not have telescopes 24/7 at every inch of it .
@TodaysThought Your comment or as you describe your philosophizing .."question" indeed seems to not be on topic here. The video is on the development of theory of mind in human children. Theory of mind is described as the ability to attribute MENTAL STATES to oneself and others.
@MicrosoftsourceCode The 3 year old cannot imagine someone else lacks the info she herself does have.
The only good thing to say about your responses so far dude, is that you were absolutely correct in your self assessment in that very first response by you!
@naturalpreservation And this is why I say in a philosophical sense you are like the 3 year old in this video's story.
And to get back to that video...it is about human mind and how it works ( generally). How at some point it shows an ability to something it didn't before. It is a development which seems independent of cultural influence or "smarts". It seems to be purely a result of the continuing physical development of the human brain in children.
To which you then added basically a description of a critical approach and that comes down to you saying one needs to approach the bible with a already religious mind in order to get "truth' out of it after which you continue and try to make out all truth is relevant upon the observer's state of mind.
It is not dude...some truth is not dependent on anything but rational observing. That is why it can be done by mindless machines who will then observe the same as the rational human.
@Nerusai These things are very complex and heavily studied because of their complexity and importance. I strongly encourage you to read more about this area if you are interested.
@worsethanamistake
It isn't "switched on," it's developed. There's a process, not just a sudden emergence. That's why he says you're not born with it.
@naturalpreservation Nope dear, quite clear on what evolution is. Here's two of several definitions..1: a theory that the various types of animals and plants have their origin in other preexisting types and that the distinguishable differences are due to modifications in successive generations
2: a process of change in a certain direction
@pimpwacker I am pretty sure I have never read any study that concluded it was learned. Everything, even thought, are patterns in biological machinery, and these biological systems are chaotic in the mathematical sense. As far as developmental stages, theory of mind is pretty well defined. As with all things, it will be a combination of biology and environment.
@martynm If you check out some the lectures on child development you could see some experiments and other interesting things.
Children cross a threshold in brain development during those ages mentioned in the video which enables them to correctly perform in the experiments. If it were cultural influence you'd expect a wildly varying difference in ages in the results but there is a clear biological threshold in age.
There are also more neat tests like this which closely study child development.
@Digeridude No it's not. It has nothing to do with "smarts". Nor does it have to do with where the ball is or not. The video is about the ability to imagine other people's mental states.
So he would be considered an empiricist, because he said "Theory of mind is not something that we're born with its something that is learned"
@naturalpreservation Nope. I think attributing the amount of significance and "exceptional ism "you do to the human species and it's actions is a view very much rooted in the same thing in our brains which inspired theism and cultivated by thousands of years of theism into a world view clearly many find hard to free themselves from even for a minute. Which neatly leads me back to my original remark regarding the comparison of that view and the subject of this video.
It also doesn't much matter whether it was a human doing the bringing down of the tree or another bigger tree falling against it or an rock rolling against it.
@naturalpreservation Actually, the consensus isn't in on that one yet!
And it is you who started out implying our species is particularly special dude! That was your point and it was the point I am arguing.
And nope, I am not worried in the least whether evolutionary theory breaks down in culture as I never looked for it to hold anywhere but in it's organic setting.
@naturalpreservation Dude, anybody who has ever observed dogs interacting will know that they give each other express permission to certain behavior and expressions on an individual basis.
And expression is a RESULT of evolution is what I stated.
@naturalpreservation That same evolutionary process also gave me the capacity to understand and empathize with the fear you so clearly demonstrate in your theism. Unfortunately my particular unique mind has not developed enough empathy for your fear, to overcome the exasperation with any adult unable to develop enough self esteem to free himself from his fear inspired slave mentality.
AWESOME!
@TodaysThought As far as we can tell the mind requires matter. It has even been suggested that the particular matter our brains our made of is necessary.
It does not prove that they don't have a theory of mind before that age. They might just not understand the question due to undeveloped language abilities. One of my cousins who was less than 2 years old at the time took a chocolate bar which he was not allowed to. When he was told no, he hid it behind an object so that he could see it, but not the person who denied him the chocolate. When this trick was exposed he got very embarrassed. What do you call that?
So, .. I'm a little confused here. was the ball in the basket, or the box?
@naturalpreservation And it's main fallacy is the the entire theory is based on the limited process of the human mind and only makes superficial sense when one completely ignores physical reality in order to elevate the human mind and it's often dubious and equally often individual rather than by the species on a whole, achievements, to the imaginary (though only in that same human mind's) lofty status in the grand total of the cosmos.
@naturalpreservation What reluctance? I expressed uncertainty on that number and you explained how you came to it. I decided in order to not veer off topic to accept your use.
But if you insist...the reason there are at present about 10 million species is because life evolves into ever more complexity. It didn't start out with 10 million species and looks like it took a while to get to that number so for you to simply add up the years to the number of species at present is misleading.
Was it his Theory of Mind ' to have LOUD MUSIC to overlap his big message ?
@naturalpreservation It's good to see you enjoying yourself too ^^. I wish you best.
Very interesting. Thanks for uploading!
@fabs038 Uhm, empathy is related but not the same as ToM.
Other than that, with empathy it is the same story...expert opinions are divided on whether it "has to be learned by a certain age or is lost".
Personally I feel we don't know enough to declare either way.
Nice!
Awesome video, thx!
@MicrosoftsourceCode Dude, it is really very simple. Try listening carefully. The guy is asking you to imagine you are sitting around with your little sister. Now imagine you tell your little sister a story about Anne and Sally. At some point you stop the storytelling to ask your little sister a question regarding what will happen next.
The idea is you imagine that you and your little sister are real while Sally and Anne are fictitious characters in a story you are telling your little sister.
@kitsunde And how about agriculture. We've been getting involved in the evolution of plant life for a long time too.
Funny how such a deep thinker as Vinegar, in his talk about unifying theories and culture forgets to mention that one. By many considered a key development leading to the rise of human civilisation.
@naturalpreservation LOL I was speaking of the laws of nature dude! Such things as gravity etc.
Yes our knowledge of how gravity works comes to us because of our "culture" but that fact does not change the existence of gravity nor how it works. Our knowledge may allow us to play with it and work with it but it doesn't ultimately change the laws that govern gravity.
@naturalpreservation envirnoment; the circumstances, objects, or conditions by which one is surrounded.
Also: the aggregate of social and cultural conditions that influence the life of an individual or community
If you want to communicate dude, it would be wise to start using the generally accepted terms rather than any future definitions you personally envision. ( I assume you ARE trying to communicate seeing as you chose to engage in debate on the internet)
@scuzzulus "you have to learn it" in contrast to "you'll get it by genetic developments". Even unconscious learning is learning.
@naturalpreservation so what do you think explains culture if not the way the human brain and body function?
@naturalpreservation Of course the connection between our physical and social are substantial...to us and certainly they gain substance when we change the physical world . That is however not confined to human species and it doesn't make the human species any different than any other species. Every living thing by it's mere existence alone changes the physical world.
@Rice8Daddy Oh yeah? only one problem. The guy says the ball is taken out of the basket and puts in the box. And the little sisters is said to guess the ball is in the box which is correct. Yet the guy making the video screws it up and you let him do it to you cause you did not watch the clip carefully. BTW I too have made tutorial videos with mistakes and people do not notice them and say the video was excellent. Please watch the video again I am sure you will see what I mean.
@tmtyler how so? It describes exactly what the concept is - that mind exists outside of one's own mind.
@naturalpreservation I am afraid I use the word "term" in my comment according to it's dictionary meaning which is in no way related to the behavior of light.
I think nobody ever explained to you that some words can have very different meanings but that this doesn't mean you can mix those meanings with each other. Like the meaning of particle when speaking about language has absolutely nothing to do with the meaning and certainly the behavior of a particle of light.
Most folks understand this.
@naturalpreservation Indeed "culture"emerges from the evolutionary process!
That adding to this statement that "culture" can only be understood as a dimension on it's own is your view (and one you still have not substantiated with anything but citations of opinions) NOT a logical result of that first fact.
@naturalpreservation LOL that would be a contradiction in terms. "Artificial" being defined as "man made" for one thing and generally used "as opposed to" nature.
@naturalpreservation How would you know that? Do you understand what two dogs are really communicating when they bark and growl to each other? No you don't! What we can deduce from our own understanding is some, based on any result we recognise as a result but that's all.
This is great!
@TheExDeus Why do I think that suffering is worse than nothing??? Are you serious? Have you ever been in pain before? I mean REAL pain. You ever had to live with the mental agony of being completely physically paralysized, as many people are? Or, even the mental agony of having a loved one in such a position? You ever seen someone tortured? Witness someone go weeks without food or water til they starved to death? Nothingness is peace, freedom from pain or agony, or stress. Living is suffering.
@naturalpreservation If it was true that every human mind is mentally a different species we wouldn't have psychology dude!
This video explains something about a particular developmental stage of the human mind which is over all in most humans pretty much dependent on the age of the subject. It speaks of a concept almost all human 3 year olds do not understand but almost all human 5 year olds do! It is clearly a result of physiology of the human brain rather than anything else.
@naturalpreservation You misunderstand the point! I am not saying you are trying to convert anybody to god or religion. I am saying that your view is clearly religious and religiously based though you seem to be unaware of to what extent.
And yes, I realize you do not see an inherent contradiction between a material understanding of the world and believing in a god. ( would that be a particular god btw?)
I'm not sure the line that' clear though. I'm pretty sure I was able to lie way before I was 5.
Why would I lie is I didn't think someone else didn't have the same knowledge as I do?
On the other hand though. When I lied at that age, it usually was "I don't know". I don't think I actually made up different scenarios.
@tomaz2007 I agree. But from what I understand about DD he sees the physical processes (even if we don't know know the details yet) as sufficient to explain consciousness. They obv are sufficient to cause it but this doesn't _explain_ it. We can analyse all the processes involved in tasting chocolate but that dosn't explain why the subjective experience tastes of chocolate rather than mint. We experience data as more than information, we experience qualia. But DD and others don't seem to agree.
There are 7 dislikes on this video. Unless they are accidental, I wonder, what sort of person dislikes this? Creationists subscribed to Richard Dawkins that then take the time to hate on a fundamental concept in psychology? "Ooooh those scientists describing children's imaginations!" Science is so beautiful, accessible, and never forced - the day will definitely come when all embrace it :-)
Isn't this where the "god debate" starts.....I was so relieved to see people actually commenting about the topic of the video.
It seems I can find the god debate on ANY video anymore....
Never mind! Realized already what you mean by that UD!
@naturalpreservation Our "culture" is nothing but a superficial result of the evolutionary process which developed our species, including our minds, how that mind works and what "culture" it created.
@Anon12356 Well, if you don't have any religious beliefs, then why is marrying/having sexual relations with children wrong? Where do your morals derive? Or, per your non-religious beliefs, then why is ANYTHING wrong? Lastly, if you say all religious beliefs are "stupid", then what does that say for any commonly shared beliefs/morals by believers and non-believers alike, such as murder being wrong?
I thought his face looks like a mix of Dr.Wilson and Jack Bauer maybe. Strange that I had this feeling for a while.
@naturalpreservation It is in fact only recent that organisations like NASA have even started to discuss how we really ought to set up a system to try and deal with a scenario as I described. I once again refer to the present trouble we have dealing with an oil spill already!
The film Meteor was a movie dude! Not reality!
@daniel12181961 The child is taught that game, they don't come up with it on their own. I'm reminded of a video where a child is put on the other side of a miniature volcano model from a grown up. The child's side has trees and little people, the adult's has buildings and boats. The child is shown the adult's side and confirms that the child sees the buildings/boats, then is moved to the other side. When asked what the adult sees, the child answers "trees and little people."
This comes into play in an extreme way in poker. Listen to Phil Laak debate calling Tom Dwan...
"He knows that I know he likes to bluff, but he also knows I know he knows I know, and knows I'll call.... but I know that he knows that and I don't know if he knows that I know.... Call.
"Full house"
"I'm the worst."
I don't know if my cat have theory of mind, but she sure have a theory of crapping. Her cat litter is beside my toilet and yesterday when I was sitting on my toilet and crapping, she did enter her litter and began to crap too. So don't say she don't know whats going on ;-)
:)
@naturalpreservation Indeed, anyone "associated with RDF" as you so very telling describe it, wouldn't want any "ideas" that are not scientifically tested or testable to be accepted as if fact.
Such as the idea that the human idea of self has more intrinsic meaning or "weight" than the results of any other species mind's workings.
@naturalpreservation It's misleading because for one thing we know that the only reason we got to this point has little to do with culture but everything with..evolution and being subject to nature.
@PetieDutch But Empathy and theory of mind isn't obviously the same mechanism. Empathy makes us feel sad when we see someone feeling sad etc. The theory of mind is about, well what he talked about, it's rather about thoughts than about feelings. I don't think it's the same mechanism.
There's a relevant ted talk about this by Rebecca Saxe called "how we read each other's minds", check it out if you're interested :)
@bonnie43uk Depends. Are you Sally? In that case the ball is in an unknown place from her point of view, although it should be in the basket.
@PeeGeeBeeDee But what you're saying is different from the video: you're saying "At Ages 1,2,3 We Don't Have The Cognitive Ability [because] The Genes For It Haven't Developed", whereas he's saying we haven't learnt it yet. Could you clarify? Thanks.
You have to, OF COURSE, be an prepared organism, with the proper biological/genetic conditions to LEARN this. But is still learned.
The same way you have to be an organism with enough conditions to learn how to drive, but that doesn't mean HOW TO DRIVE was writen in your genetic code or something like that.
The ability to understand there is a difference between human meaning,standards and values and other species and as a result the place of the human species in the whole,is similar to the ability of the adult's ability to understand other mental states in other humans and his own place in the whole. The inability to understand this place is similar to a child's rate of ability. The believe human beings are somehow the pinnacle of creation...that would be comparable to the 3 year old in the video.