The West Wing - Toby's definition on what a president should be like
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
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The West wing - Season 07 - final season - Episode 08
Toby Ziegler - Josh Lyman - Matt Santos - God's conspiracy
"Destiny demands of him this service !!!!!!!"
Toby the idealist wants the perfect candidate to descend from on high fully formed and ready to create utopia. Josh the pragmatic idealist knows that you find the best guy you can and make him as ready as you can.Just like Leo did with Bartlett.
Notice how Toby's dream pick is full of hubris. I'm surprised Toby didn't walk through the TV screen and become a real living person when Obama was president.
As we've seen over the course of the show, despite their often contentious relationship, Toby has always had the utmost respect for Bartlet and when set beside a guy like Rob Ritchie it was easy to see why. Now along come Matt Santos and once again, Bartlet is the standard by which all others would be measured. But as Santos himself said during the convention, if we expect our leaders to stand on some higher moral plane than the rest of us, we're just begging to be decieved. As good as either of these men are, the truth is and always has been that the perfect candidate does not exist.
Barlett was far closer to the guy Toby is talking about in this clip than Santos ever was. This take is absurd.
He was governor of New Hampshire when Leo approached him and actively fighting for issues he believed in.
Toby was on board with Bartlett before Josh was. All that mattered to him was that he was a good man. And he would've felt the same way about a guy as good as Santos, if the writers didn't think it was their duty to assassinate his character.
I agree. Bartlet didn't know at first. Leo had to use ""Act as if ye have faith, and faith shall be given to you. To put it another way, fake it till you make it.." Bartlet knew he has MS, and it wasn't until he won the IL primary that he felt he was ready. After he had the talk with Josh after Josh's father died. He then went to Leo and said he was ready, Santos was ready before then. Toby has a short memory.Much of that has to do with the fact Sorkin wasn't doing the writing in season 7.
Toby forgets that Jed needed to be persuaded to run for president too.
Jed was hiding the fact he had MS. Who knows what his attitude would had been like if he didn't have it.
I don't think he ever knew that
@@zbaksh101 Bro, no. It's that Sorkin isn't writing this horseshit. We got Toby and Josh physically fighting before this. Utter dogshit.
The simple truth is that that's exactly not the type of person we need in that office. Those are the type of people that have brought us to the state we're in now. It's not strong men with hubris that make great leaders, it's strong men with humility and a small sliver of doubt, men with the fortitude to suppress that same said doubt and realize their imperfections and perfections both that are the ones worthy of our support and our vote. People whom we have not seen the likes of in a very, very, very long time. We haven't had candidates to vote FOR in this country in ages. But we've had a lot of candidates we feel we must vote AGAINST. And more's the pity.
There will likely never be a candidate who meets this description in the foreseeable future because the country is extremely polarized. The last was Obama, and even he wasn't able to achieve a landslide because the polarization was already bad. Most of the transformational or inspirational presidents had very healthy egos -- FDR, Teddy Roosevelt, Reagan, LBJ, JFK etc.
"Freudian fratricidal mania built around your success".....God, we love Toby....hubris, drive, destiny and the demands of service. Great man, great series
Man, this scene. Season 7 rarely felt like early West Wing, but this scene did. Richard Schiff knows how to bring it!
I disagree. I think the best leaders are the reluctant ones that know the burden it brings. Not the power hungry despots that crave control
Eight packets of Splenda, and you couldn't ruzzle up a bagel? 😂
Toby had some major abandonment issues, and no doubt trust issues maybe due to his father. That is why he saw Jed so clearly, and why lashed out at Josh, who left to get Santos to run (who also left in his own way). In fact, he probably leaked the military shuttle because he felt the astronauts we being abandoned by the government. Anyway, that's what I read into his behaviors.
Bartlet wasn't even "ready" until after he won the Illinois primary in In the Shadow of Two Gunmen Part 2.
I appreciate what Toby is saying here, but I disagree. I don't want a president who believes that ruling others is his role in life. I don't want a leader so dripping with hubris that he thinks he's destined for greatness. You want to know what that looks like? It looks like a King or an Emperor. It looks like someone who refuses to respect the office. It looks like Donald Trump. I want a leader who respects himself, respects the office and has an earnest desire to make things better for his country and his fellow Americans. The first quality in a good leader is respect, not ambition.
Exactly. 45 has the hubris. Doesn't have the tools. He's just a tool. A Hubristic Blunt instrument.
Toby's point is not whether or not Santos really is 'that man' cuz Bartlett wasn't 'that man.' Toby's point here is that Josh MUST believe Santos is, as fervently as Leo felt Bartlett was, cuz McGarry believed in Bartlett more than the pope believes in a god.
Leo's telling Josh if he don't have that same conviction, the other guy's gonna win. This scene is not about Santos. It's about Josh. Watch it again.
A lot of commenters are saying Toby’s a hypocrite because Bartlett also had to be talked into it by Leo, and while I agree Santos and Bartlett are actually a lot I like, I still think this critique of Santos is in line with Toby’s character.
First, did Toby even know Bartlett had to be talked into it? Leo convinces Bartlett to run then brought Toby on board. By the time Toby met the president, Bartlett was likely saying “I’m Jed Bartlett and I want to run for president”, not “I’m Jed Bartlett and my friend talked me into running for president”.
Second, this is Toby saying he doesn’t think Santos is the best candidate. I’m willing to bet he still plans to vote for Santos (that is, assuming he’s allowed to vote).
Third, I don’t think Toby was thrilled about Bartlett for awhile. He was always more critical of Bartlett than the rest of the staff and when he started working on the campaign, he likely just was doing so for the paycheck. It wasn’t until Toby knew Bartlett well that he gains confidence in Bartlett’s ability as a leader.
Toby doesn’t know much about Santos, but he knows that Santos isn’t politically ambitious. It makes sense that that’s enough to make him not love the candidate.
Toby is on the campaign before it's viable, when it's just another quixotic run to add to his perfect losing record at the time. If Toby doesn't accept that the gods are conspiring for Santos after his improbable win of the Democratic nomination, with even more stacked against him than Bartlet, that's on him and his own arrogance.
It you actually understood what Toby is saying it describes Jed Bartlett perfectly. ‘Destiny demands this service’ is how Jed Bartlett justified lying about his MS to god to his friends to the public, it was the same drive that made him run for second term. He destroyed his health and stared death to fulfill a greater purpose. Maybe the idea of running for president comes from Leo, but the inspiration motivation ambition to succeed is all Jed Bartlett.
Bartlett family comes from since the creation of the USA, a long line of public service, Jed was governor no one will question his motivation for public service. Santos was quitting congress to go private, so toby and audience has every right to believe his guy isn’t cut out for the demands of such a job just because he is a good guy.
People are saying the greatest leaders are those that don’t desire power but are forced into it, they are not devoid of desire difference is they desire something far more motivational than power itself, because the drive to succeed only for your self your own glory will lead to your self destruction. Perfect example today is queen Elizabeth 2, she wasn’t meant to be queen, her father died young the throne is thrust upon her. What keeps her going is that she doesn’t see the crown as something she owns, she is a custodian a servant of the monarchy that is all, hence she is the longest reigning queen. Thus the greatest leaders are those that see their roles as servants not as masters to achieve something for others not for themselves, difference between a Stalin and a Lincoln, difference between an FDR and a trump.
The best part about this is before this scene Toby said “dont say “see you later” you’re not coming back!” And josh just is there with donuts and coffee.
@nascarkraz I hated it too, but they did reconcile. Actually, this scene was the first step in that process. And don't forget, Toby was the one who ultimately told Josh to cancel everything and get Santos to California which ended up being the strategy that won him the election. So you can say that Toby and Josh got back to where they were at the beginning.
Toby's fatal flaw is that he is angry at the world for not living up to his expectations. :p And he takes that anger out on the wrong people.
Bartlett knew in college he was destined for greatness. Mrs. Landingham duirng his younger years made him recognize it.
But it was Leo who took the initiative. Jed's Josh.
This was some of the only genuinely good stuff they did with Toby's character in that final season. They really shit the bed with Toby as a character just because they couldn't figure out how to keep President Bartlet's white house at the forefront of the show and weren't ready yet to commit to the show being about Santos and Vinnick. At least in these moments Toby felt in character, and Schiff played it accordingly. Unlike the more shifting, blander work Schiff had to do in attempt to justify Toby's writing being so out of character in regard to his "leak" storyline.
I agree-the whole "secret military shuttle" story was weak on any number of reasons, and Toby was the person least likely (outside of Leo and the President) to leak it. It made a bad story line even worse.
It's very telling when an actor criticizes the writing of their own show because they felt they're character was being wronged. Schiff's been very vocal about how much he hated the shuttle storyline and how he thought it did a disservice to Toby as a character. He even went so far as to say outright that in order to justify it to himself he had to invent a story in his head that Toby was taking the fall for someone, which he felt was the honorable thing to do rather than that Toby was actually guilty in order to play those scenes. And you can tell when watching the show that, that's kind of what Schiff was doing.
More than anything it makes me wish they would have been smart enough to shift focus from Bartlet's lameduck year in the white house to the Santos/Vinnick campaign storyline much earlier, and that they'd found a way to include Toby in that storyline rather than pushing him off to the side and basically removing him from the show save for a few cameo appearances. Personally Toby taking the place of Janeane Garofalo's character would have been vastly preferable. Then allow him to be Josh's Deputy Chief in the Santos White House and Sam could have been communications director.
The whataboutisms with Toby and Bartlet miss the point. Toby was NEVER 100 percent sold on Bartlet.
Jed Bartlet absolutely drove him nuts. Toby saw a genius on his intellectual level, a man with so much potential, constantly get in his own way. Bartlet veered to the middle, and even to the right a couple of times. No real courage of his convictions.
And remember how many Supreme Court justices and retiring senators told Jed the same thing.
And to bring up Trump...Toby just described Trump. Also, if Toby described Trump, in character, it would sound like this...
“WE HAVE A CERTIFIED LUNATIC IN THE WHITE HOUSE NOW! HE’S THE BIGGEST IDIOT I HAVE EVER SEEN, AND HE OCCUPIES THE BIGGEST OFFICE IN THE LAND! BUT HE DUMPED THE PARIS ACCORDS, GOT TAX REFORM, PRISON REFORM, AND MOVED THE EMBASSY TO JERUSALEM!” HE KEPT HIS PROMISES, AND DELIVERED ON SOMETHING HE DIDN’T PROMISE! THIS IS WHY WE LOSE PEOPLE! WE DON’T DELIVER!
They butchered these characters in the later seasons. Toby was never so irrationally reactionary, and Josh was never so brash. Maybe they had their moments, but never to this degree. Remember when Toby shouting was a rare occurrence? He went from the calm, detached guy to the angry ideologue in too short a time considering the character development. This is so ham fisted, I would have thought it were another series. I miss tv sorkin...
I know Donald Trump's not that man... or Ted Cruz
Funny thing is, Donald Trump is someone who would think the gods have conspired to lift him to the Presidency, that's the sort of person he is. Ted Cruz probably would've been similar, as would most major candidates. It takes a certain kind of audacity to genuinely believe you can and should be President of the United States.
This flawed mentality is why almost all Presidential hopefuls are terrible candidates. To say that someone who should in control of the reigns of power should be the kind of person with hubris is absolutely insane. Anyone who wants that kind of power should already be disqualified. This type of thinking pisses all over the original idea of power being a temporary service that was true since it's inception in ancient Greece and Rome. You should be called to service by the people, not desire it so much as to convince everyone that you deserve it. It's a sick mentality that needs to stop. Please, don't look at what Toby says here as if it was poignant. It was ignorant and an awful definition of what character a person should have that wants to be President and it should be demeaned and look down upon.
That's not what he was saying at all. If you fixate on that one word then yeah, but it's not about hubris. The central point here is "... who thinks the gods have conspired to bring him to this place, that destiny demands of him this service!" The idea here is not that someone is ambitious and desires power for its own sake, but that they have the confidence required to make such all-encompassing decisions. And it's about a sense of duty, that one is compelled to take on this task for the good of all.
Daniel Martin I read somewhere that Richard Schiff was unhappy with the direction his character was moved toward following Sorkin's departure. I wonder if the Toby of earlier seasons would take the same stance.
Daniel Martin Hubris is a funny word
Youve misinterpreted Toby's message here. It has nothing to do with defining the idea, candidate as someone "wanting" power for the sake of being able to wield it, for personal gain...
Toby is talking about identifying a leader who feels the calling in his veins of responsibility to make decisions that can affect change for the greater good.
This is such bull. If you only go with the people who have "ambition", then all you get are power-hungry dictators. Also, this contradicts what Toby told Will when they were quarantined together in the west wing. In that conversation, Bob Russell was the one who grasped the opportunity, who didn't wait for someone to come looking for him, and Toby still told Will to drop it and go looking for a real candidate. Also, it contradicts what Toby told Josh, later on this very season I think, when he basically said the real reason he was pissed is because Josh did all this without him. I'm not saying Toby's "wrong" when he says a president needs to be ambitious and a visionary, but this whole scene is Toby bullshitting Josh.
Right? This was not Toby to me. It was writers trying to shoehorn in the scenario they wanted and sticking the script into any available body.
Call me crazy, but I think I'd prefer a politician who was humble enough not to want the job but stepped up when someone told him he was the best man to do it.
Like George Washington
This was by far one of the best if not the best damn shows on tv.There could not have been a better choice of actor for the role of president than Martin Sheen,and what a supporting cast he had with him.I loved that show and love watching these clips.Thank you for posting.
A pompous show written by pseudo intellectuals with facile solutions to complex problems. Oh, but the characters meant well so.....
@@warriormvp It may have sounded pompous. But it imagined we were better than we were.
@HottieCamKevinRedux No, I actually disagree. I think Bartlett always was that kind of person... remember Dolores Landingham recognizing him as a "boy king"? Then his meteoric rise in NH politics, his unbroken string of electoral wins, his winning a Nobel Prize... Bartlett IS a born winner. The difference is, until Leo opened his eyes, he just never included the White House in the radius of his ambition. Once he wanted it: he got it. That's presidential enough for me!
I watch this at least twice every week its so inspirational. Greatest show of all time it didnt age at all.
It’s almost more relevant now on some things.
Toby is absolutely wrong about this. The people who seek power are the ones who abuse it.
@HottieCamKevinRedux
I think that's a lot of why this scene is so important; Toby's letting out a lot of his repressed frustration that Bartlett was never quite the driven, unwaivering progressive hero and politcal virtuoso Toby wanted him to be.
That's an interesting take. I never saw it that way at first, but I understand what you mean there. Santos can't get over the top unless Josh also believes the same way Leo and the rest of team believed about Bartlet.
I'm almost certain that when Toby moved out of that home, it was occupied by a certain Dr. Gregory House...
All I need now is a situation where I can use the phrase 'Freudian fratricidal mania' and have the audience understand what I am saying.
I have always been impressed with the passion of Toby Zeigler. And he always supported his passion with facts and with logic. Nothing was a joke to him. His humor was filled with dark, thought provoking sarcasm. When he spoke, people listened to him. And when he was in a scene, I was compelled to watch him.
To quote a character from another series: "Real power isn't something you give, real power is something YOU TAKE". That's why the other side wins.
Ummm... Toby - Bartlett not only had to be presented with the opportunity - almost coerced into it by Leo 0 but he never planned on winning. He said himself he just got into it to raise some issues and promote debate.
And this scene is so much better than the physical fight they had in season 6. But Toby, the idealist, forgets that Jed had to be convinced into being president. It was Leo's idea. Leo was the Washington politician whilst Jed had seemingly settled as the Governor in New Hampshire. He had no ambitions for President until Leo came to see him.
Bartlet had served multiple terms in congress before becoming governor.
@@seanwebb605 But even so after he met the term limits of governor of NH he probably would've retired from politics if Leo didn't convince him to run for President.
@@joemckim1183 Yeah, you're wrong on every account.
@@seanwebb605 Based on your assumptions, you have no evidence of what I said was wrong. Would Bartlet have attempted to be a Senator at the end of his Governorship? Maybe he gets named to the Cabinet as Secretary of the Economy or something like that.
@@joemckim1183 New Hampshire doesn't have term limits. There are plenty of examples of former governors becoming senators, cabinet secretaries and ambassadors. It's a common trope that ambitious politicians create a mythology where they were called upon to serve rather than simply being ambitious and seeking high office. Much of the storyline about his future chief of staff coaxing him into running for the nomination can easily be seen as part of the mythology of being called to serve, a grassroots campaign to draft a candidate etc.
Now go back to your utterances.
God I miss this show...
Cincinnatius? Not sure I"m spelling his name right; but the farmer that those In power asked him to take charge?
So he did it; and did it well.
Then retired...
Then some years later; they asked him to do it again
and he did it again
and then he retired; when the job was done
Washington? IDK...
Murica? IDK
Of the People... IDK
I don't think Corporations should be considered, by the USC, as "People". Simply put.
Make sure you Vote
I've got a sign in my yard
Just vote... anyway...
In the episode "The Leadership Breakfast"
Toby : _"They're coming for us, Leo."_
Leo : _"I know."_
Toby : _"I mean they're coming for us now."_
Leo : _"Toby, if you knew what it was like getting him to run the first time."_
Toby : _"I know."_
Leo : _"Like pushing molasses up a sandy hill."_
Definitive proof Toby knew President Bartlet had to be convinced to run for President. Either the writers forgot or Toby lied to cover his other biases against Santos...
How long was the series with Bartlett? How long was it Santos?
Yes, Jed left the governorship to be President because of Leo. But he knew he how the right characteristics to lead a nation.... and a series
Santos is inaugurated in the series finale, so we don’t get to see his presidency
Josh Lyman: This isn't about the President doesn't think Santos can win, it's about you don't think he can win.
Toby Ziegler: That's true, I don't.
Josh Lyman: Because it will kill you to see me do this and succeed. You're not wired for such an event. You're entire neurological infrastructure would fritz out.
Toby Ziegler: You really think I built up some Freudian fratricidal mania built around your success? You don't think I have anything other than that against the Democratic nominee for President?
Josh Lyman: Name something else, please.
Toby Ziegler: He's not Presidential material.
Josh Lyman: Why?
Toby Ziegler: Why? Because he left. He left Congress, he left Washington to go home and do small, important work. You had to haul him by the hair out of the family bed. Did you never stop to wonder if that was a good choice?
Josh Lyman: He stepped up when presented with the opportunity.
Toby Ziegler: The man in that job shouldn't have to be presented with anything! It's for someone who grabs it and holds on to it, for someone who thinks the gods have conspired to bring him to this place, that destiny demands of him this service! If you don't have that kind of drive, that hubris, how in the hell are you going to make the kind of decisions that stump every other person in this country? How in the hell are you going to hold that kind of power in your hand?
Josh Lyman: You don't know he's not that man.
Toby Ziegler: You don't know that he is. Is he? Look me in the eye and tell me that you know, without a shadow of a doubt you know.
[Josh says nothing]
Toby Ziegler: That's why the other guy wins.
Toby's right about this. It's a double-edged sword. You need a level of hubris and arrogance to push through the criticism and opposition to function at that level, but it's also the reason an 81 year old who clearly cannot perform his duties had to be dragged out of the White House kicking and screaming. He's spent 40 years of his life certain that "destiny demanded this service". He wasn't just going to accept it was over.
This completely ignores how Washington had to be convinced to be the first president of the US. He wanted to go home to Mount Vernon and stay there after the war, but got dragged back for the Constitutional Convention. Then got dragged back to be President. And when given the opportunity to stay, he left. This is why I hate what the writers did with Toby post-Sorkin. This completely ignores American history to try and create drama between Toby and Josh. Plus add in the "Willing to throw out the baby with the bathwater" attitude of him not liking Santos just because he spoke in favor of ethanol subsidies in s6, and you get a miserable representation of what the writers thought leftists were like. The part where he says "8 packets of splenda and you couldn't spring for a bagel?" is a perfect encapsulation of that. The guy is getting free coffee, and he's bitching about no bagel? That shows how miserable they made him, turning him into the type of person that would rather the other guy win than vote for someone who doesn't 100% pass his purity test. And that's not even taking into account the whole military shuttle leak storyline. Schiff deserved so much better than what the writers gave him.
@HottieCamKevinRedux
I disagree Bartlet never left the N.H. state house, Santos really did quit. When Leo came to him with "Bartlet for America" he never balked, he took it as a challenge. He wasn't supposed to win, just be in the debates, fate played a role then he got the party's nomination. Also when we see him as a young man he is the kind of man Toby is describing.
This is post-Sorkin Toby, so it's not as smart as we expect it to be.
Shakespeare knew better: Some men are born great. Some become great. And some have greatness thrust upon them!
(And that's from a comedy.)
I feel that it's not like Leo had to beg Bartlet to run. He must have known that Bartlet had the passion for the job, and Toby picked up on that. In season 2, Toby talks about how he couldnt work for Hoynes because he wasn't sure why Hoynes wanted the job, but he knew exactly why Bartlet wanted it. Just because the original initiative wasn't Bartlet's doesn't mean he didn't want it.
@HottieCamKevinRedux I agree completely. But even to augment your point, Bartlet was in his final years as Governor when Leo propositioned him. He was probably going to go back to Dartmouth and teach again if he had his way.
Exactly the kind of people you need to keep as far from political power as possibly, and by any means necessary.
The Other Guys and Gals certainly. Win. 2005-2023 so far
Avoidance.
@HottieCamKevinRedux Even when he was running and Leo fired all his advisors except for Toby. Bartlet wasn't sure if he was ready to be president.
I will always disagree with Toby on the idea of how a President should act. "Great leaders do not seek power. They have it thrust upon them."
"8 packets of Splenda, you couldn't wrestle up a bagel"......Typical Toby.
Complaining for the sake of complaining......(8^)
what people aren't considering was Toby's mental state at this point. He was coming off of betraying the Bartlett campaign because he was growing distant and bitter towards Jed- he had been slowly giving up on the agenda and paving the road for Santos, ergo why he eventually reported the leak to the New York Times. This isn't purely reason- it's his rationale for why he did what he did.
There's an amazingly funny book called How to Fight Presidents, a well researched comedy book. Author, Daniel O'Brien, makes the point that this, what's happening here in this scene, is the problem with the American Presidency. To achieve it, you'd almost certainly have to be a megalomaniac. The personality that survives the battle to become president is, very often, not the type of person we want to wield that much power.
Oh it is very common for U.S. presidential candidates to be incredibly ambitious men who then have to pretend that they are being conscripted against their will and then so willing to give it up.
If he’s upset over the last 8 years fine whatever but not all presidents can become perfect the way people want them to be
...some a freudian-fratricided mania arround your success...
Great Tobby!!!
Toby's point is completely undercut by the fact that Leo had to drag Bartlet from New Hampshire and pretty much force him to run for President.
I always wondered how this show would have dealt with Trump. Vinick was an old-school conservative who leaned just enough to the middle to almost win. This universe could never have imagined or conceived the radical perversion of MAGA, nor an electorate gullible and stupid enough to buy into it.
The show creators, producers and writer were aware of Barry Goldwater's campaign, Nixon and Reagan. Trump added some ridiculous nonsense but wasn't beyond imagination.
why do democrats think yelling is a political position ?
Exactly the point I was about to make. Not to mention there was a whole 2 part flashback episode that showed him being not ready and scared out of his mind. This is why I have a love/hate relationship with Toby.
Running for President is a ENORMOUS request of someone. I'm sure most people who've ran for President have had their doubts if it was do able at least a few times even when they're clear favorites. Your entire life is suddenly an open book for the entire world to find out about.
toby was in the end a like a kid that when he got not what he wanted he treath to quit.
I know its 2019 now and there is no way they could have been thinking about Beto O'rouke (In fact the Republican running here was based on John McCain and the Democrate was a combo of JOhn Kerry and Barak Obama) but to those who say Beto shouldn't have said "I was Born to Run" I give you 00:58-1:20.
This is why Biden isn't stepping down.
I never really got why Toby would suddenly NOT back the Democratic nominee for President. He seemed to be a more partisan force in the West Wing up to this point. Also, it's been a while since I've seen this, but did he ever actually even meet Santos...? Seems awfully sure that he's not 'the guy'.
I hated that Josh and Toby had such a fall out at the end of the show. I always loved those two almost the most of any of the cast.
So good
If you're looking for someone who has that hubris, that arrogance, that ambition and lust for power that Toby seems to want, you're asking to get someone who could easily be a tyrant. As a counter point a line for Star Trek Deep Space 9: "Great men do not seek power, they have it thrust upon them". A humble, intelligent, hard-working, compassionate, capable man is a far better candidate than an proud ambitious power seeker.
@bornbillsmith Toby was always a fan of candidate Bartlett; it was President Bartlett who disappointed him, hence Jed's conversation with the retiring liberal justice and the whole plot of "Let Bartlett Be Bartlett". Toby's principles eventually lead him to betray Bartlett through the leak. And Toby was never viable as a politician-- no way he could smile that much.
Well said Toby. Full marks
For people who say that Bartlett is the same, you're wrong. Bartlett served in public office for years, he was the governor of his state and did good things there, not to mention serving in Congress. He was always sacrificing and serving his country. That is what made him a good President. If you look back, you'll see the truly great Presidents spent most of their lives serving the people and rose to that office.
@bornbillsmith yeah, but you have to be likeable to win a Presidential campaign. That was my point, basically. Toby is too gruff, cynical, awkward, nerdy, and of course being Jewish won't help him with Southern voters... remember that scene where he was talking to Bartlet about how when he worked in a call center, Ziegler was good for the Northeast and the West, but for the South and Midwest he had to go by a different name? :P
Is this before or after the fight?
I think Toby is letting out his frustration that Bartlett wasn't the type of president that he hoped for. Does anyone remember that scene where Bartlett was trying to get a supreme court judge to retire so he can pick his bland nominee Harrison? The judge told him, "I waited 5 years for a democrat but instead I got YOU!".
You're wrong.
He was telling Josh that Santos didn't have that committment to being Presidden as before Santos started running for President he had left politics, suggesting his desire for office was lacking.
He was asking Josh could If he could say Santos was that man because he was making a point about Santos not Josh.
Did Toby just describe Donald Trump? I think so!
I'm far-right, but it would be hard for me to not vote for Santos. What an inspiring character! Santos - Friedman in 2020!
@HottieCamKevinRedux He did keep his Multiple Sclerosis a secret from everyone because he wanted to be president even thought he knew it would affect his abilities.
@cifer169 Then why didn't Toby support someone else or if he couldn't find someone he could support why didn't he run for office.
That's a good point, but here's my opinion. Toby's just been fired by Bartlet. He's resentful. He also used to have fight after fight after fight with Bartlet about the President being tougher and more passionate in his governance - remember the "good for all time zones" scene. Toby's kind of always wanted a crusader. And finally, he's scared, because Vinick looks good to win, and he's terrified that all that he worked so hard for will be dismantled. It's a great evolution, I think.
This really doesn't work in the Trump era but I still love the acting.
I was thinking that, but maybe he was still pissed at Bartlet for firing him after his humongous betrayal. For me, the whole show was f***ed up beyond any repair by this point.
Toby doesn't mention a single policy issue that he wants that candidate to be for or against. The dream neoliberal candidate that can hold onto power through sheer force of will for powers sake.
I mean... Trump kinda fits that bill.
Yeah, it's what sealed it for me that Toby's definition is so flawed.
@HottieCamKevinRedux I think we can probably chalk that particular slip up to his circumstances. Toby's a pretty emotional guy, much as he likes to try and hide it, and he's currently facing a hefty sentence for leaking classified information to the public. As such he's probably not at his most cold-blooded and rational right now.
I disagree with Toby here. Great men don't desire power, they get power thrust upon them.
@bornbillsmith lol! The very idea of Toby running for office! ^_^; you have to at least be minimally likeable to get elected to Dog Catcher, much less POTUS! ^^;
This was a lot more bearable than that ugly uncharacteristic fight they had in Toby's office
You are forgetting that President Bartlet and Toby didn't exactly get along so well.
To anyone who thinks Presidents ever seem egocentric, just watch this video.
Tobey seems to forget Bartlett had no inkling to run until Leo went and convinced him
Jeez and you still ended up with 45.
Tell me, brother. Tell me.
Honestly Leo...were most of our presidents that man?
@HottieCamKevinRedux However, Toby quickly felt that Bartlet was great, that he had the stature to be president.
So Toby's saying a power-hungry egomaniac should be president??
"Only those that do not seek power are qualified to hold it."
Sorkin was fantastic missed but scenes like this are reminders that the writing stayed peerless even in the later seasons
@nfinn42 If we knew the truth about the people we elected would we still vote for them.
I'm not a liberal ( I hate liberals and I also hate conservatives and sometimes I hate my mother but that's Jewish thing and you wouldn't understand) and voted for Kerry even though Bush was much more likable.
Likability is one if the least important things in life.
Truth and honor is more important.
This is how I feel.
I'm kind of different from most people.
My favorie singer is Leonard Cohen.
if you don't think LIKABILITY is the MOST important thing ...ask Hilary
didn't it take Leo to get Jeb to run?
@nascarkraz but they made up in the end which is the mean thing!
Yet, ironically, Leo had to travel to New Hampshire to get Bartlett to run for the White House and manage him carefully until he felt that he was ready to lead.