I wouldn’t go so far to say this is his finest moment, it’s probably his smartest, but his funeral for the homeless soldier in Excelsis Deo was his finest moment
I may be a softy, but I believe his finest moment is with his twins - not just the hat bit, but when he comes back to the White House and says he knew his kids for 45 minutes and if someone was hurting them he'd bomb them.
In the 10 episodes I worked as a boom operator, one was these '17 People' and the other was 'Two Catherdral' . It often never happens where you feel like you're part of making legendary episodes while filmming. The Director Alex Graves, the actors, the DP, the sound, we were all in our element. I will say these. I believed this experience I felt will never be repeated again. So happy and proud to see fans and critics always named these 2 episodes as their best 5
If you get a chance to catch this episode, pay particular attention to sc24. In the oval office with Leo, The President and Toby. This was a 5 page scene and in one section Toby spoke for 2 minutes straight reciting countries, institutions, weapons, names,events,timelines,etc Richard Schiff was so quiet that day. The props taking request fr production had erected giant cue cards all over the Oval Office. Martin was also quiet unlike his jovial( does James Gagney every chance he gets). John Spencer,nobody knows this, cannot read scripts. His personal assistant would read the script and he would write it down on a yellow pad HIS lines. That's how he learned Leo's words. On this day of filming, all 3 were in their element. Richard never looked at the cue cards. He was in a zone. In a trance. He nailed every take, every nuanced. His performance was magical. It was an experience I still cherish to this day
@@leumas75 My account above is about 17 People. As far as Two Cathedrals, the story takes place in a heavy storm but I was confused why the sfx dept was pumping so much wind and rain INTO the oval office. Personally I didn't think viewers are going to buy it but however the story was so strong with the President torn and questioning his faith, smoking and snuffing out the cigarette in the church, it was so shocking and scandalous, the rain did not matter at all
@@ltcolumbo9708 Thanks for the reply. I just rewatched 17 People and figured it HAD to be that one with Toby questioning the chain of command / MS / all the things. As for Two Catedrals, it’s been a LONG while, but I seriously don’t remember wind blowing into the Oval at all, but rather being awestruck at Barlett’s excoriations in Latin (thank God I took enough of that language to understand what he was saying in the moment, which was both awesome and soulwrenching) at the end. That and the significance placed (through previous scenes) of the cigarette. Fantastic work, you should (and it seems obviously are) proud of your work on that show. I’ve run post-audio, tracking, and even some scoring for a number of shows, and the feeling I get watching others watching a show and reacting in just the right way at a build/crescendo to a hit at just the right moment is SO DAMN EXHILARATING!!!
@@leumas75 You're a composer? How cool is that! Always wanted to sit in during spotting/scoring sessions but usually it conflicts with my work. Don't remember who scored The West Wing but I do know Wendy & Lisa( Prince's Revolution) was the composers on Crossing Jordan and Heroes which I both worked on. You were talking about the exhilaration of everything falling into places and experiencing the movie goers joy, immediately Jaws came to mind. That was a MASTERFUL JOB what John brought to the picture. I hope to see your name on the big screen soon
funny.... that was the first episode I ever saw. I was in my mid 40's.... I'm a vet. I have a friend buried at Arlington. I was sitting there weeping, watching. im as republican as they come but I was hooked.
I think that episode tried to say that even if people are on the opposite sides politically, all can appreciate the service veterans have done for the nation. Because it is unfortunate how military policies made by politicians are coupled with military personnel who execute them. Like after the Vietnam war returning soldiers were blamed for what they were sent to do, and how criticism of government's military actions is considered as criticism of the military personnel. Both are wrong. Still I bet that huge majority of those, who criticize government's military actions, value the people who put their life in the service of the nation -- and might die for it.
@@Gods_messenger_Elijah Since you need it spelled out for you: From 3:53-3:54, the look of shock(at Toby putting it all together), turns into a small smile(out of pride of Toby putting it all together, despite Leo's repeated pooh-pooh-ing Toby's energy and time put towards this situation) And finally at 4:02-4:03, Leo's small smile has turned into an intentionally focused/measured look(the anger at John Hoynes' chutzpah is bubbling up, but he's not sure what POTUS is going to do about this, so he holds his personal feelings back until he can speak with President Bartlet).
@@partyguy101ify No, he was proud. Leo is set up and demonstrated to have the most savvy and brilliant political mind of the entire cast(including President Bartlet). Josh is the 'rising star', but it's Leo who in most episodes see's the end of the story long before it arrives. In this moment, Leo was blindsided. He wasn't tracking Hoynes, so he was missing a lot of crucial info. Hoynes' comment to Toby put Toby on notice to find the hidden meaning, but Toby's known to be politically paranoid, so while he might go down the rabbit hole, Leo's experience usually serves him well to keep Toby from chasing ghosts. That's why he was proud of Toby. Despite his several dismissals, Toby figured it out when Leo wasn't even looking for it. That's why(at least in my head canon), Toby got 'promoted' from the China "Aegis Destroyers' Topic to the 'Bartlet Psychosis' Topic in the later chess episode. He'd proven to Leo he was getting to that level of political awareness, even if he wasn't quite as practiced at it as Leo was.
I love when Toby confronts The President in this episode. "I wasn't in the situation room that night, but I'll bet all the money in my pockets, against all the money in your pockets that is was Leo...who NO ONE ELECTED!" Its one of those amazing moments where he was dead right, and Bartlett got pissed because he knew he was in the wrong.
Well except that he wasn't right at all. They showed the situation room that night in a previous episode. Nancy and Leo disagreed on what to do and Hoynes made the call.
@@kulaak-krii They call the people around the President "advisors" for a reason. You listen to them then make the call you think is right which is exactly what Hoynes did. Being National Security Advisor, Chief of Staff, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Vice President or even the President doesn't make you right all the time.
@@kulaak-krii Your line of thought takes away exactly the executive authority that Toby wrongly thought had been taken away. If the VP was supposed to automatically listen to the NSA, then once again we have someone "nobody elected" calling the shots. But as the scene made clear, we didn't! We had Hoynes, who was duly elected, making the actual decision. The fact that he agreed to take Leo's tack over Nancy's is a question about his judgment, not about the constitutional issue. As a secondary issue, I disagree completely that a Chief of Staff should be discounted in such a situation, but that isn't really the point. The point is Hoynes did in fact make the call. Which is to say, Toby's bet in this scene is a losing one.
This episode was shot on a minimal budget with no new locations, guest cast, or sets and minimal extras per NBC. Ironic, given it's limitations, that this episode won them an Emmy and is one of the show's best.
the spectral sound of the ball bouncing at the end symbolizing toby's deduction is another example of first rate west wing. easily in the top five for best shows ever made.
What I love about this scene is it demonstrates Toby's quiet intellect. Whilst other members of the administration are high-fiving eachother over the stackhouse filibuster, Toby is 'seeing the whole board'. Transient events are of little concern to him, as is the glory of victory. He knows something is very wrong with the picture and within days has figured out a secret that was buried for years. Haunted, brilliant and (IMHO) an intellectual equal of Bartlett. A phenomenonal character.
Plus, the way Richard Schiff played Toby with such nuance was impressive as hell. I'm sure every WW fan will recognize how Toby, when he gets stressed or is in deep thought (basically all the time), he grinds his teeth and chews even though nothing is in his mouth. It's a trait that Schiff had Toby do for the entire 7 seasons. Talk about an actor completely in the role; and what's amazing is that every one of the main players were just as phenomenal.
LOL. I can relate to this; I'm pretty much the same way. If you tell me that something is on a "need to know basis" and I needn't bother, I'm gonna' figure that I NEED TO KNOW and start digging!
This was one of the finest hours of television I've ever seen. This show was known for its big grandiose moments but the subtle moments like this - wow.
The more I watch scenes like this, the more I appreciate the depth of artistry in this show. The dialogue, the story, the music, the actors - of course all amazingly good. But its the little things ... the incessant bouncing of the ball as Toby works this through is his head ... and then right at the end when we can only hear the ball bouncing but now it's like an overpowering heartbeat to accentuate the tension - this is movie caliber. Don't let anyone ever say this was just another TV show!
The cadence of Toby's ball against the wall is very Tell-Tale Heart... the secret lurking underneath the floorboards, driving the culprit insane with its presence. And he can never be free of it, because he's always waiting for the other shoe to drop.
@@JourneyBold Even without Sorkin, it was still a good show. I’d definitely take it over anything out today. But yes during the Sorkin seasons, it was peak TV
Richard Schiff’s acting throughout the seven series is compelling. The scene in the kitchen up at the Bartlett’s farm, where he is standing still with his back to the sink, with his face immobile, his voice quiet and low, and whispers : “Yeah?” somehow conveys such a deadly sense of threat that he is quite terrifying. There are several scenes where he acts only with his eyes. All the characters in the West Wing are brilliant, the writing is excellent, and the direction fabulous. One of the best tv series ever made.
I did not appreciate it the first few times I watched the series. I think as I've grown older and experienced the world more the way Schiff carries the character feels like more and more remarkable.
It's a good sounding line, I agree. But...what would it really take to "stop a team of oxen"? They are a "team"; so they're bound up and hooked up to a wagon or plough. Oxen are the ones managed by a ring in their noses...not sure if that's used by the wagoneer. But...about 100-200 pounds (total guesstimate) of pull on the reins might stop a team of oxen. Hardly tonnage required.
I reread the thread when Granny Shanny posted. I realized my example above was flawed. Either abused the point or "cheated" to disagree. (Perhaps Strawman fallacy). But his analogy wasn't apt. He was talking, I believe, about the force needed to counteract a powerful force exerted in one direction. The pull needed to stop them depends on the part of them you're pulling on. All harness was invented to give man leverage over more powerful animals. Nose rings. Bits between the teeth. Etc. If your line is attached to a nose ring, you have ... Leverage. Stops a powerful animal's momentum with a small tug on delicate tissue. Less so for shoulder harness. And so on. So unless the point was that a similar form of leverage was available... Or even built in... I think it was just a busy mind reaching for a visual example of large force being counteracted. Not factoring the rest in. Then just moving on. He speaks a lot. And usually very well (or catches, acknowledges and laughs at the slip).
One of the great things about The West Wing was that we saw clearly that the characters were smart, instead of being told they were or having the script pitch them softballs. Toby takes one single event and brilliantly reasons his way to an accurate conclusion that uncovers a very big secret.
The look on Leo's face at the end of the scene is incredible. That kind of subtle acting is when you know you are watching greatness. This is probably my favorite episode of the entire show. Intense from beginning to end, later in this episode includes one of the many epic clashes between bartlett and toby.
Listen to the sound on this clip. The music and the pulse of the rubber ball cadence turn this from what could have been an average scene to something that feels immensely important. Brilliant!
"Three-day camping trip to Killington." That's when Leo knows, beyond any doubt, that Toby's figured out that there's a secret. He doesn't know what the secret is or he wouldn't be asking, but he knows there's a secret. And if Toby can figure it out, other people can too. So now Leo knows that they not only have to bring Toby in on the big secret, but they have to prepare to go public. And all because John Hoynes couldn't keep his big mouth shut.
@@Egilhelmson I’ve been thinking about this episode now that there’s so much debate about Biden not running for a second term, etc. It hits me how big a deal that would be. In fairness to Hoynes, I can appreciate his frustration with Bartlet keeping his health a secret -- especially if Bartlet hadn’t planned on serving two full terms. Having a lame duck president for almost a full year is never ideal.
Absolute genius writing. Love this every time I come back around to it. (We never stop watching….. we just take brief time-outs between “Tomorrow” and the pilot. 🇺🇸
OK I'm a Brit and, unusually, not especially fond of US tv programmes. But The West Wing was one of the very finest tv dramas ever produced - I watched it then and have it now on DVD. I don't know how Sorkin etc produced it nor how that ensemble of actors was so superb but I know we have never produced a political tv drama that comes anywhere near touching its brilliance. One of the finest programmes of the tv age of which I know. Almost-unrelated footnote: I actually watch quite a few US UA-cam channels - some You-Tubers are excellent.
This American agrees with you 100%. The writing and acting are brilliant. It's so real (revealing how the "sausages are made" in government) and at the same time pure fantasy (if only real dialogue were this sharp and people in government were this noble) but such great characters and stories -- Sorkin makes it work brilliantly.
What I love a bout Toby is that he goes after the President, no matter what. The only people who really challenged Bartlet were his wife, Leo, and Toby.
+John Doe I'd refine your argument a little. I'd say that Toby was the only one who was Bartlet's intellectual equal. I don't think Leo needed to be that to be a superb Chief of Staff to him; Leo was a tough warrior and smart enough to help him navigate through the choppy waters. It didn't matter that he didn't understand economics as well as Bartlet.
One of many scenes that proved Toby was the smartest guy in the entire administration. Another is when he goes after President Bartlet about "the letter".
Jamie Whitfield If you watch some interviews about the last season, Schiff says that Toby would never do such a thing. By that point, Sorkin had left the show and it was being written by other writers.
+Jamie Whitfield - CJ asked Toby if his brother ever mentioned 'another shuttle' Toby said sometimes, oblique mentions when he wanted to lord it over him. If Toby had gone to Greg Brock with that, it wouldn't have been enough evidence to print the story. She then says wouldn't your brother have wanted that shuttle to come to his aid if he was on the ISS? Toby said no, he would have died. CJ suggests that is wrong, but at the same time has just confirmed the existence of the shuttle to Toby. That could be read by the audience (and Toby) that he was being sounded out as a believable leak while having his suspicions of a military shuttle confirmed by the Chief of Staff. If CJ was confirming what he suspected, he could have taken that as his cue to leak. Toby was my guy in the West Wing, I agree with Richard Schiff, he would never have unilaterally hurt the president. The President, CJ and Toby were all troubled by the incident, weren't clear with each other and things snowballed from there. I've gone from hating this episode to loving it. It's a tale of spinning secrets and half conversations having dramatic and unintended conclusions. Such is the secrecy about this Shuttle that the President can't talk straight with CJ, so she gets the wrong idea; She can't talk straight with Toby, and the message (if there was one) gets mixed up yet again. Toby does what he thinks is wanted of him, leaks it and then falls on his sword when it explodes. Somewhere between Bartlett and Toby the message got mixed. It's what happens when you "play with live ammunition" as Sam once said. Remember later when Toby is being grilled by the lawyer - You weren't supposed to have that information, just say it was your brother who told you! End of. Toby refuses - because it was CJ who confirmed it's existence. Why would she do that, unless to pass it on.
+Jamie Whitfield I never bought that story arc. The show was in it's twilight, Sorkin had left several seasons back, and the writers were looking to inject some drama. Schiff himself disagreed stongly with the direction his character took, but went along with it because that is what professional actors do. It didn't take away from the fact that he had a greater understanding of this character he played for 7 seasons than the writers at the time, and he stated inequivocably that Toby would never have betrayed the President in such a way.
+Soldier4USA2005 And even then despite that, it was, and probably still is, a better written show than most of the current crop of dramas with only a few exceptions.
Absolutely brilliant television. During the first couple seasons of the TWW, I didn't understand Toby and didn't like him at all. Not long after that, I fully understood that he was the most complex, brilliant and fascinating character on The West Wing, which to me is the greatest television drama of all-time.
Totally agree. This episode is probably my favorite of the series, and the intro is awesome. Toby was the only one who put it together on his own. Everyone else was told, or was in on it from the beginning. But Toby worked it out for himself. He couldn't know that Bartlett had MS, but he looked at the big picture, picked out a handful of details and did the math. There are a lot of very smart characters on the show, but Bartlett and Toby are a cut above the rest.
Note as well: One other person who figured things out, with some hints from Zoey about things to look out for and to call the First Lady if he sees them, was Charlie, much to the surprise of Leo and Bartlett. Charlie is very smart himself =D
@@boostbeetle true, although in the case of Charlie, ge had access to information Toby didn't have. Not that Charlie's deduction isn't a good one, but Toby worked it out just from subtle moves made by Hoynes.
I know im a little late to the party but i have only just watched this.. in fact i watched the last episode this morning.. Ive watched every episode in 5 weeks during the end of my pregnancy and through night and early morning feeds!! Being from the UK i dont know very much about the American Presidential system but i thoroughly loved every second and was completely invested... from the first to last episode i learnt a lot more than i thought i would and laughed out loud on many occasions!!
Tash Garner the beauty of how this show transcends politics and is just damn good drama. This series sparked my interest in US politics and to this day I’m still obsessed with. I use to watch it and not have a clue about what they were talking about and now I do lol.you beautiful baby must be five now🙋♀️g
If I recall correctly ...Among Toby's finest moments is that in which he's been on the president's last nerve for some time about his wishy-washiness, and later sets down with him explaining how, in the upcoming election, he should not dumb himself down to his opponents level because he is indeed a heavywieght and an example worthy of being set...
"You're a good father, you don't have to act like it. You're a good man, you don't have to act like it. You're the President, you don't have to act like it. You're not plain spoken. You're not just folks. Do not, do not.. do not act like it. Make this election about smart, and not... Make it about engaged, and not. Qualified, and not. Make it about a heavyweight. You're a heavyweight.." This would just run around and around in my head in 2016 leading up to the election.. and after Trump was elected.. I must of watched West Wing 4-5 times all the way through.. just for the escape.
Toby has many great scenes, I think his best is in "The Shadow of two Gun men Pt 2" when CJ says "You wanna lock up everybody in white sheet?" And Toby yells "Yes I do! WHO has a problem with that!? Bring them in here right now! YES I DO!!"
The scene where CJ Gregg goes into his office to console him after his brother's death was absolutely phenomenal. Completely believable and heartbreaking besides. He balances overt prickliness with subdued warmth and walks that line effortlessly. It's actually hard to watch, he is just that good.
I think they are all competent actors, but it was the writing that set it apart. You could have Brando, DeNiro, Hoffman, and Streep and whoever you like, but unless the script is superior, you're going to have a mediocre show. I think Janney and Sheen are the best actors of the bunch. Sheen's career was already made, so it was a stop on the road for him. Of Janney, Whitford, Schiff, Hill, and everyone else, Janney's career is the one which went stratospheric. Schiff hasn't been in much, and Whitford and Hill stay busy. Compared to most TV actors, though, they're all doing well better than average. Most TV actors lucky enough to get a gig on a hit show just disappear after it ends. Anybody remember Richard Karn?
Regifloat He still is . It was a cast of best actors riffing off of each other's excellence. Whenever he is in something I make a point of watching. He is also a really nice human being. My daughter worked as a PA on the show and, as everyone left on the day the show wrapped, he thanked her by name.
The thing is, when Leo goes "I wouldn't give it a lot of thought" I always think "...oops." He says it a liiiittle too casually, especially knowing who he's talking to. Like, that's not a good way to get Toby to stop thinking about something. (To be fair, I'm not sure what would be.) The next scene, when Toby gets a more stonewall answer from him and Toby kind of grinds his teeth and goes "okay...", is when Toby really KNOWS that Leo is part of it. But I think that moment, when Leo tries to just cut off the conversation a bit too quickly, that's the moment a part of Toby realizes Something Is Seriously Wrong. Anyway, not criticizing Leo, he did the best he could in the face of Toby's stubborn doggedness. I just love the way these two play off each other!
Toby never better when he arranged the veteran's funeral , the ending was one of the most moving scenes in any series or film ever , the whole episode was the perfect 10
When you hire very very smart people who are very very good at taking disparate pieces of information, putting them together, and making 2+2=7 you cannot, cannot, cannot, get pissed when they do what they are very very good at...when you didn't want them to.
The sound of that ball bouncing against the floor, then the wall, and landing back into Toby's hand is similar to that of a pulse that Toby is monitoring.
Yes, Toby's quiet intellect was so well played. This episode just like his actions in "Little Drummer Boy" reveal the depth of his character. Whilst the President was upset when Toby organised the homeless Vet's funeral, Barlett still put his hand on Toby's shoulder. No words were necessary. Pure brilliance.
There are some beautiful subtleties in this scene. The first cut ("the same night"), as Toby is bouncing his ball, you can hear in the background, on either radio or TV, Senator Stackhouse (the one who filibustered the administration) being interviewed about autism funding. It mystified Toby at the time why Bartlett was so sympathetic to this filibuster. What Toby doesn't realize is that Bartlett's soft spot is in part due to his own struggle with MS. I think this is percolating in Toby's subconscious already at this point. And Leo, by brushing him off too swiftly at 1:55, just adds fuel to the fire. Toby is smart enough to realize something IS being kept from him.
Aaron Sorkin is just that good a writer, dude! There's a thousand things like this that I'm sure I haven't spotted yet, and I've rewatched TWW maybe 5 times through. It's unbelievably layered and filled with symbolism.
Thank you. What always struck me about this scene is the way it demonstrates the truly staggering genius intellect of Toby Ziegler. Everyone else had to be told. He *figured it out*. And it wasn't just the Hoynes trip. Plenty of other people saw that and saw the connection to reelection, but even that alone wasn't enough (because otherwise he'd have just assumed what they did: that Hoynes was being Hoynes, the consummate ambitious dickhead). It was the little details that didn't fit right. Toby is an obsessive-compulsive type, you often see him in scenes picking and flicking at loose threads on his clothes. Fussy. So these little details, these cracks in the wallpaper of Leo's deception, just kept nagging at him and he HAD to figure it out. He couldn't just let it go. Which is why he *did* figure it out. :)
Minor detail but it's not Stackhouse being interviewed. It's one of the senators who came on to the floor to give Stackhouse a break. And I don't think Toby cared for one second about the filibuster. He was too focused on Hoynes to care what was happening with a bill in the Senate. It just so happened that the TV in Toby's office was tuned to the filibuster.
Very well put. I couldn't agree more. When the West Wing was at its best (such as this episode) it was better than anything in the history of television, and I don't say that lightly. An out and out masterpiece. Man I miss this show.
What people disliked about Toby was that he was smarter than them. I'm not sure what bothered him more, the fact they didn't tell him in the first place, or the fact that they thought he wouldn't work it out for himself.
What bothered him was the idea that Leo might have been running the country and the President had a diagnosis that could make it impossible to carry out his duties. The third issue in order of priority was the lack of a letter being signed...a stupid part of the American system to be honest. Toby really couldn't care less he was out of the loop in that context.
It's very fine, but I would give toppest marks to [spoiler] Zoey at the club, the kidnapping, Leo running for the first and only time in the series to tell his friend his daughter has been taken, the dropped tumbler and the blood-drained look Bartlett gives his wife.
The tension, the slow cracking at the wall of invisibility, the use of the ball as the sound of a heartbeat... All incredible. And Toby hounded it out. The equivalent of figuring out Batman's identity. He knew.
The ball thing was actually Schiff's idea! He told Sorkin, If Toby ever has to figure something out, he should bounce this stickball off the wall. Sorkin figured out the right place to use it.
Absolutely my favorite Toby sequence! The functioning of a rational and superior mind as it works through an apparent anomaly or situation that appears to make no sense is brilliantly executed - and the music and sound effects are perfect!!!!
My West Wing kindred spirits... After at least five times through TWW, this is how I've come to characterize the senior staff: Sam was the brains CJ was the voice Josh was the heart And Toby... Toby was the soul Agree? Disagree? It's all good..
17 People is my favorite single episode of The West Wing besides Two Cathedrals. It's such a killer episode that I didn't even notice it's the first one without CJ.
GREATEST scene of the show in my humble opinion. The first time I watched it here, I cried like a baby. It was so moving. Toby had outstanding character.
The Toby character was the most fascinating element of this magnificent drama series, which to me is the finest scripted network television show in history.
Maybe TWW is just fantasy bullshit that completely misrepresents what counts in politics, while what has been elected is much closer to the past, present & future reality of the world. I'd even go so far as to say that thinking TWW wasn't fantasy bullshit is what helped bring about the current state of affairs.
This is an example of every single element of a television show--writing, acting, music, sound, editing, photography--being done to absolute perfection.
There is NOTHING like a good strategic thinker. They can see through smoke, fog and steel…. Thank you Toby. This show taught me so much and I didn’t even know it at the time,
The racket ball dound at the end is the exclamation point to a great scene from maybe the best written/produced/directed/acted TV show of all time. This scene and the church scene in Undecideds.
Sweet Jesus I this is fantastic. I watched every episode of the West Wing when it was on TV, but I forgot just how amazing it is. I feel the need to get the DVDs and start from the beginning.
I did the same marathon recently! I have to say that the first four seasons were stellar with the first being the absolute best. I could really tell when Aaron Sorkin left. The mood and the writing changed. Watching them back to back,I could see the repetitiveness of certain situations. However, I was shocked, yet again, when Admiral Fitzwallace and Mrs. Landingham died. Loved both of them.
I wouldn’t go so far to say this is his finest moment, it’s probably his smartest, but his funeral for the homeless soldier in Excelsis Deo was his finest moment
Agree
This is his Toby-est moment.
It is his finest moment. He stood for the Constitution. It's Bartlet's worst moment.
100% agreed
I may be a softy, but I believe his finest moment is with his twins - not just the hat bit, but when he comes back to the White House and says he knew his kids for 45 minutes and if someone was hurting them he'd bomb them.
In the 10 episodes I worked as a boom operator, one was these '17 People' and the other was 'Two Catherdral' . It often never happens where you feel like you're part of making legendary episodes while filmming. The Director Alex Graves, the actors, the DP, the sound, we were all in our element. I will say these. I believed this experience I felt will never be repeated again. So happy and proud to see fans and critics always named these 2 episodes as their best 5
If you get a chance to catch this episode, pay particular attention to sc24. In the oval office with Leo, The President and Toby. This was a 5 page scene and in one section Toby spoke for 2 minutes straight reciting countries, institutions, weapons, names,events,timelines,etc Richard Schiff was so quiet that day. The props taking request fr production had erected giant cue cards all over the Oval Office. Martin was also quiet unlike his jovial( does James Gagney every chance he gets). John Spencer,nobody knows this, cannot read scripts. His personal assistant would read the script and he would write it down on a yellow pad HIS lines. That's how he learned Leo's words. On this day of filming, all 3 were in their element. Richard never looked at the cue cards. He was in a zone. In a trance. He nailed every take, every nuanced. His performance was magical. It was an experience I still cherish to this day
Just to be clear, are you talking about “17 people” or “Two Cathedrals” here?
@@leumas75 My account above is about 17 People. As far as Two Cathedrals, the story takes place in a heavy storm but I was confused why the sfx dept was pumping so much wind and rain INTO the oval office. Personally I didn't think viewers are going to buy it but however the story was so strong with the President torn and questioning his faith, smoking and snuffing out the cigarette in the church, it was so shocking and scandalous, the rain did not matter at all
@@ltcolumbo9708 Thanks for the reply. I just rewatched 17 People and figured it HAD to be that one with Toby questioning the chain of command / MS / all the things. As for Two Catedrals, it’s been a LONG while, but I seriously don’t remember wind blowing into the Oval at all, but rather being awestruck at Barlett’s excoriations in Latin (thank God I took enough of that language to understand what he was saying in the moment, which was both awesome and soulwrenching) at the end. That and the significance placed (through previous scenes) of the cigarette. Fantastic work, you should (and it seems obviously are) proud of your work on that show. I’ve run post-audio, tracking, and even some scoring for a number of shows, and the feeling I get watching others watching a show and reacting in just the right way at a build/crescendo to a hit at just the right moment is SO DAMN EXHILARATING!!!
@@leumas75 You're a composer? How cool is that! Always wanted to sit in during spotting/scoring sessions but usually it conflicts with my work. Don't remember who scored The West Wing but I do know Wendy & Lisa( Prince's Revolution) was the composers on Crossing Jordan and Heroes which I both worked on. You were talking about the exhilaration of everything falling into places and experiencing the movie goers joy, immediately Jaws came to mind. That was a MASTERFUL JOB what John brought to the picture. I hope to see your name on the big screen soon
Toby's finest moment was what he did for the dead soldier and his brother in In Excelsius Deo.
+1 to this.
funny.... that was the first episode I ever saw. I was in my mid 40's....
I'm a vet. I have a friend buried at Arlington. I was sitting there weeping, watching.
im as republican as they come but I was hooked.
Spacy! No. THANK YOU! For what it's worth, trained with some Canadians while I was in West Germany. A nicer bunch of guys you couldn't ask to meet!
hishighness420: definitely, yes
I think that episode tried to say that even if people are on the opposite sides politically, all can appreciate the service veterans have done for the nation. Because it is unfortunate how military policies made by politicians are coupled with military personnel who execute them. Like after the Vietnam war returning soldiers were blamed for what they were sent to do, and how criticism of government's military actions is considered as criticism of the military personnel. Both are wrong. Still I bet that huge majority of those, who criticize government's military actions, value the people who put their life in the service of the nation -- and might die for it.
Leo's face when he realizes Toby figured it out... anger at Hoynes, pride at Toby... god this show was so good.
I wouldn't say that Leo was proud of Toby. It's more like, 'Please stop asking about this. The less you know, the better.'
@@partyguy101ify No, Alex nailed it, there was also pride there. It's subtle and easily missed by casual watchers.
@@davidstone53 So subtle only expert viewers can see it eh? LOL
@@Gods_messenger_Elijah Since you need it spelled out for you:
From 3:53-3:54, the look of shock(at Toby putting it all together), turns into a small smile(out of pride of Toby putting it all together, despite Leo's repeated pooh-pooh-ing Toby's energy and time put towards this situation)
And finally at 4:02-4:03, Leo's small smile has turned into an intentionally focused/measured look(the anger at John Hoynes' chutzpah is bubbling up, but he's not sure what POTUS is going to do about this, so he holds his personal feelings back until he can speak with President Bartlet).
@@partyguy101ify No, he was proud. Leo is set up and demonstrated to have the most savvy and brilliant political mind of the entire cast(including President Bartlet). Josh is the 'rising star', but it's Leo who in most episodes see's the end of the story long before it arrives. In this moment, Leo was blindsided. He wasn't tracking Hoynes, so he was missing a lot of crucial info. Hoynes' comment to Toby put Toby on notice to find the hidden meaning, but Toby's known to be politically paranoid, so while he might go down the rabbit hole, Leo's experience usually serves him well to keep Toby from chasing ghosts.
That's why he was proud of Toby. Despite his several dismissals, Toby figured it out when Leo wasn't even looking for it. That's why(at least in my head canon), Toby got 'promoted' from the China "Aegis Destroyers' Topic to the 'Bartlet Psychosis' Topic in the later chess episode. He'd proven to Leo he was getting to that level of political awareness, even if he wasn't quite as practiced at it as Leo was.
I love when Toby confronts The President in this episode. "I wasn't in the situation room that night, but I'll bet all the money in my pockets, against all the money in your pockets that is was Leo...who NO ONE ELECTED!"
Its one of those amazing moments where he was dead right, and Bartlett got pissed because he knew he was in the wrong.
Craig_M President Bartlett. :)
That scene is amazing, and Leo's expression shows he understands the gravity of it all.
Well except that he wasn't right at all. They showed the situation room that night in a previous episode. Nancy and Leo disagreed on what to do and Hoynes made the call.
@@kulaak-krii They call the people around the President "advisors" for a reason. You listen to them then make the call you think is right which is exactly what Hoynes did. Being National Security Advisor, Chief of Staff, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Vice President or even the President doesn't make you right all the time.
@@kulaak-krii Your line of thought takes away exactly the executive authority that Toby wrongly thought had been taken away. If the VP was supposed to automatically listen to the NSA, then once again we have someone "nobody elected" calling the shots. But as the scene made clear, we didn't! We had Hoynes, who was duly elected, making the actual decision. The fact that he agreed to take Leo's tack over Nancy's is a question about his judgment, not about the constitutional issue.
As a secondary issue, I disagree completely that a Chief of Staff should be discounted in such a situation, but that isn't really the point. The point is Hoynes did in fact make the call. Which is to say, Toby's bet in this scene is a losing one.
The way they played this whole revelation out was brilliant. The ball, the pacing, the slow realization, the minimal dialogue. Pure brilliance.
The small details like the episode starting where Stackhouse Filibuster left off was GENIUS 😎
This episode was shot on a minimal budget with no new locations, guest cast, or sets and minimal extras per NBC. Ironic, given it's limitations, that this episode won them an Emmy and is one of the show's best.
Did not realize this was a bottle episode but it makes perfect sense now. Gorgeous
Limited resources are often a great boon to creativity!
It does show how telling a good story is better than a lot of bells and whistles to stop people from noticing how thin the story is!
the episode 2 cathedrals i have just never seen better
well when you can't rely on props you have to concentrate on dialogue
the spectral sound of the ball bouncing at the end symbolizing toby's deduction is another example of first rate west wing. easily in the top five for best shows ever made.
The entire second season of The West Wing is some of the finest television of all time.
My favorite season 😁
What I love about this scene is it demonstrates Toby's quiet intellect. Whilst other members of the administration are high-fiving eachother over the stackhouse filibuster, Toby is 'seeing the whole board'.
Transient events are of little concern to him, as is the glory of victory. He knows something is very wrong with the picture and within days has figured out a secret that was buried for years.
Haunted, brilliant and (IMHO) an intellectual equal of Bartlett. A phenomenonal character.
YES. THIS. ALL OF THIS!
Brilliant observation my friend
I loved Bartlett, I adored Sam... But Toby Zeigler is my Spirit Animal!
love this analysis
there is nothing quiet about Toby
Plus, the way Richard Schiff played Toby with such nuance was impressive as hell. I'm sure every WW fan will recognize how Toby, when he gets stressed or is in deep thought (basically all the time), he grinds his teeth and chews even though nothing is in his mouth. It's a trait that Schiff had Toby do for the entire 7 seasons. Talk about an actor completely in the role; and what's amazing is that every one of the main players were just as phenomenal.
Don't EVER tell Toby "don't give it a lot of thought..." unless you want him in your shit for the next three weeks until he knows more than you.
LOL. I can relate to this; I'm pretty much the same way. If you tell me that something is on a "need to know basis" and I needn't bother, I'm gonna' figure that I NEED TO KNOW and start digging!
At the end of the seen as Toby looks at Leo you can still hear the sound of the ball bouncing. Tell tale hart, very well done Aaron.
bob brady Totally agree.
This was one of the finest hours of television I've ever seen. This show was known for its big grandiose moments but the subtle moments like this - wow.
The more I watch scenes like this, the more I appreciate the depth of artistry in this show. The dialogue, the story, the music, the actors - of course all amazingly good. But its the little things ... the incessant bouncing of the ball as Toby works this through is his head ... and then right at the end when we can only hear the ball bouncing but now it's like an overpowering heartbeat to accentuate the tension - this is movie caliber. Don't let anyone ever say this was just another TV show!
Great during the Aaron Sorkin seasons (first 4, I believe). Afterwards, not nearly as well done.
@@JourneyBold but still great television
The cadence of Toby's ball against the wall is very Tell-Tale Heart... the secret lurking underneath the floorboards, driving the culprit insane with its presence. And he can never be free of it, because he's always waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Everything about it was magnificent!
@@JourneyBold Even without Sorkin, it was still a good show. I’d definitely take it over anything out today. But yes during the Sorkin seasons, it was peak TV
Richard Schiff’s acting throughout the seven series is compelling. The scene in the kitchen up at the Bartlett’s farm, where he is standing still with his back to the sink, with his face immobile, his voice quiet and low, and whispers : “Yeah?” somehow conveys such a deadly sense of threat that he is quite terrifying. There are several scenes where he acts only with his eyes. All the characters in the West Wing are brilliant, the writing is excellent, and the direction fabulous. One of the best tv series ever made.
I did not appreciate it the first few times I watched the series. I think as I've grown older and experienced the world more the way Schiff carries the character feels like more and more remarkable.
He's a brilliant "eye" actor. The scene when he confesses to CJ about being the leak about the space shuttle is so beautiful.
The first 4 seasons were so well written it is one of the series you could watch many times and catch something new each time
Paraphrasing... "The tonnage of what I know that you don't could stop a herd of oxen in its tracks." DAMN, SORKIN CAN WRITE!!!!
+Dennis Cassley He says "team of oxen" but yes, a great dialogue.
It's a good sounding line, I agree. But...what would it really take to "stop a team of oxen"? They are a "team"; so they're bound up and hooked up to a wagon or plough. Oxen are the ones managed by a ring in their noses...not sure if that's used by the wagoneer. But...about 100-200 pounds (total guesstimate) of pull on the reins might stop a team of oxen. Hardly tonnage required.
He also says 'the total tonnage'.
I reread the thread when Granny Shanny posted. I realized my example above was flawed. Either abused the point or "cheated" to disagree. (Perhaps Strawman fallacy). But his analogy wasn't apt. He was talking, I believe, about the force needed to counteract a powerful force exerted in one direction.
The pull needed to stop them depends on the part of them you're pulling on. All harness was invented to give man leverage over more powerful animals. Nose rings. Bits between the teeth. Etc. If your line is attached to a nose ring, you have ... Leverage.
Stops a powerful animal's momentum with a small tug on delicate tissue. Less so for shoulder harness. And so on.
So unless the point was that a similar form of leverage was available... Or even built in...
I think it was just a busy mind reaching for a visual example of large force being counteracted. Not factoring the rest in. Then just moving on. He speaks a lot. And usually very well (or catches, acknowledges and laughs at the slip).
Dennis Cassley josh did once Leo did
One of the great things about The West Wing was that we saw clearly that the characters were smart, instead of being told they were or having the script pitch them softballs. Toby takes one single event and brilliantly reasons his way to an accurate conclusion that uncovers a very big secret.
The look on Leo's face at the end of the scene is incredible. That kind of subtle acting is when you know you are watching greatness. This is probably my favorite episode of the entire show. Intense from beginning to end, later in this episode includes one of the many epic clashes between bartlett and toby.
Listen to the sound on this clip. The music and the pulse of the rubber ball cadence turn this from what could have been an average scene to something that feels immensely important. Brilliant!
"Three-day camping trip to Killington." That's when Leo knows, beyond any doubt, that Toby's figured out that there's a secret. He doesn't know what the secret is or he wouldn't be asking, but he knows there's a secret. And if Toby can figure it out, other people can too. So now Leo knows that they not only have to bring Toby in on the big secret, but they have to prepare to go public. And all because John Hoynes couldn't keep his big mouth shut.
All because no one told him that there was a reason to keep his mouth shut, whereas he HAD been told that Bartlett would not run for a second term.
@@Egilhelmson I’ve been thinking about this episode now that there’s so much debate about Biden not running for a second term, etc. It hits me how big a deal that would be. In fairness to Hoynes, I can appreciate his frustration with Bartlet keeping his health a secret -- especially if Bartlet hadn’t planned on serving two full terms. Having a lame duck president for almost a full year is never ideal.
Absolute genius writing. Love this every time I come back around to it. (We never stop watching….. we just take brief time-outs between “Tomorrow” and the pilot. 🇺🇸
Pure, pure, pure, pure quality - god, I miss this show !!
OK I'm a Brit and, unusually, not especially fond of US tv programmes. But The West Wing was one of the very finest tv dramas ever produced - I watched it then and have it now on DVD. I don't know how Sorkin etc produced it nor how that ensemble of actors was so superb but I know we have never produced a political tv drama that comes anywhere near touching its brilliance. One of the finest programmes of the tv age of which I know.
Almost-unrelated footnote: I actually watch quite a few US UA-cam channels - some You-Tubers are excellent.
This American agrees with you 100%. The writing and acting are brilliant. It's so real (revealing how the "sausages are made" in government) and at the same time pure fantasy (if only real dialogue were this sharp and people in government were this noble) but such great characters and stories -- Sorkin makes it work brilliantly.
But you guys had In The Thick Of It.
One of the few times I just HAD to buy an entire DVD box set was for this show. It was THAT DAMN GOOD.
The whole thing is on Netflix
Eugene Grewing Not the same. Some things just deserve your money.
jesusthroughmary I'm sure Netflix paid them plenty.
Eugene Grewing Not to mention that, knowing Netflix, they could be gone next month.
This is the Inspiration for SCANDAL ! SHONDA SAID BESTY BEERS had a ahah moment!
What I love a bout Toby is that he goes after the President, no matter what. The only people who really challenged Bartlet were his wife, Leo, and Toby.
+John Doe And Josh, but only when he was suffering post traumatic disorder xD
+John Doe And C.J. sometimes
+John Doe I'd refine your argument a little. I'd say that Toby was the only one who was Bartlet's intellectual equal. I don't think Leo needed to be that to be a superb Chief of Staff to him; Leo was a tough warrior and smart enough to help him navigate through the choppy waters. It didn't matter that he didn't understand economics as well as Bartlet.
And Josh in that one episode where he lost his s#it in the Oval. ;)
And Ellie.
The BEST show ever written for television!
The ball bouncing sound at the end is just brilliant.
One of the best slow rolls of the entire series. So brilliantly done.
One of many scenes that proved Toby was the smartest guy in the entire administration.
Another is when he goes after President Bartlet about "the letter".
Soldier4USA2005 Same episode. Schiff should have won his second straight Emmy, and would have except for Josh getting shot.
Jamie Whitfield
If you watch some interviews about the last season, Schiff says that Toby would never do such a thing. By that point, Sorkin had left the show and it was being written by other writers.
+Jamie Whitfield - CJ asked Toby if his brother ever mentioned 'another shuttle' Toby said sometimes, oblique mentions when he wanted to lord it over him. If Toby had gone to Greg Brock with that, it wouldn't have been enough evidence to print the story.
She then says wouldn't your brother have wanted that shuttle to come to his aid if he was on the ISS? Toby said no, he would have died. CJ suggests that is wrong, but at the same time has just confirmed the existence of the shuttle to Toby.
That could be read by the audience (and Toby) that he was being sounded out as a believable leak while having his suspicions of a military shuttle confirmed by the Chief of Staff. If CJ was confirming what he suspected, he could have taken that as his cue to leak.
Toby was my guy in the West Wing, I agree with Richard Schiff, he would never have unilaterally hurt the president. The President, CJ and Toby were all troubled by the incident, weren't clear with each other and things snowballed from there.
I've gone from hating this episode to loving it. It's a tale of spinning secrets and half conversations having dramatic and unintended conclusions.
Such is the secrecy about this Shuttle that the President can't talk straight with CJ, so she gets the wrong idea; She can't talk straight with Toby, and the message (if there was one) gets mixed up yet again. Toby does what he thinks is wanted of him, leaks it and then falls on his sword when it explodes. Somewhere between Bartlett and Toby the message got mixed. It's what happens when you "play with live ammunition" as Sam once said.
Remember later when Toby is being grilled by the lawyer - You weren't supposed to have that information, just say it was your brother who told you! End of. Toby refuses - because it was CJ who confirmed it's existence. Why would she do that, unless to pass it on.
+Jamie Whitfield I never bought that story arc. The show was in it's twilight, Sorkin had left several seasons back, and the writers were looking to inject some drama. Schiff himself disagreed stongly with the direction his character took, but went along with it because that is what professional actors do. It didn't take away from the fact that he had a greater understanding of this character he played for 7 seasons than the writers at the time, and he stated inequivocably that Toby would never have betrayed the President in such a way.
+Soldier4USA2005 And even then despite that, it was, and probably still is, a better written show than most of the current crop of dramas with only a few exceptions.
I love these scenes. Toby has Leo, and unknowingly the President, in a corner and Leo knows it. The penny finally drops.
One of the greatest shows, with one of the greatest writing staffs and one of the best casts in television history. So many unbelievable moments.
The ceaseless beat of the ball at the end was a very lovely touch.
the production/direction of this sequence is insane.
+Wes Y The West WIng was one of the shows that really revolutionized the way television was shot and edited in the early part of the 21st century.
Absolutely brilliant television. During the first couple seasons of the TWW, I didn't understand Toby and didn't like him at all. Not long after that, I fully understood that he was the most complex, brilliant and fascinating character on The West Wing, which to me is the greatest television drama of all-time.
Totally agree. This episode is probably my favorite of the series, and the intro is awesome. Toby was the only one who put it together on his own. Everyone else was told, or was in on it from the beginning. But Toby worked it out for himself. He couldn't know that Bartlett had MS, but he looked at the big picture, picked out a handful of details and did the math.
There are a lot of very smart characters on the show, but Bartlett and Toby are a cut above the rest.
Note as well: One other person who figured things out, with some hints from Zoey about things to look out for and to call the First Lady if he sees them, was Charlie, much to the surprise of Leo and Bartlett. Charlie is very smart himself =D
I didn’t know that charlie knew it with hints from zoey. Which episode do they reveal this?
@@boostbeetle true, although in the case of Charlie, ge had access to information Toby didn't have. Not that Charlie's deduction isn't a good one, but Toby worked it out just from subtle moves made by Hoynes.
I know im a little late to the party but i have only just watched this.. in fact i watched the last episode this morning.. Ive watched every episode in 5 weeks during the end of my pregnancy and through night and early morning feeds!! Being from the UK i dont know very much about the American Presidential system but i thoroughly loved every second and was completely invested... from the first to last episode i learnt a lot more than i thought i would and laughed out loud on many occasions!!
Tash Garner the beauty of how this show transcends politics and is just damn good drama. This series sparked my interest in US politics and to this day I’m still obsessed with. I use to watch it and not have a clue about what they were talking about and now I do lol.you beautiful baby must be five now🙋♀️g
If I recall correctly ...Among Toby's finest moments is that in which he's been on the president's last nerve for some time about his wishy-washiness, and later sets down with him explaining how, in the upcoming election, he should not dumb himself down to his opponents level because he is indeed a heavywieght and an example worthy of being set...
"You're a good father, you don't have to act like it. You're a good man, you don't have to act like it. You're the President, you don't have to act like it. You're not plain spoken. You're not just folks. Do not, do not.. do not act like it.
Make this election about smart, and not... Make it about engaged,
and not. Qualified, and not. Make it about a heavyweight. You're a heavyweight.."
This would just run around and around in my head in 2016 leading up to the election.. and after Trump was elected.. I must of watched West Wing 4-5 times all the way through.. just for the escape.
@@SkywalkerSamadhi The two Bartletts: The Professor and Uncle Fluffy.
Toby is a freaking genius. What an amazing cast. Seriously. One of my favorite shows.
Toby's best spots are all of them really, but the best is when he meets his babies. Love that scene SO much.
They come with HATS!
I was just going to post the same thing! :)
such an understatement to say that this is one of the Greatest dramas to ever grace a television screen.
Toby has many great scenes, I think his best is in "The Shadow of two Gun men Pt 2" when CJ says "You wanna lock up everybody in white sheet?" And Toby yells "Yes I do! WHO has a problem with that!? Bring them in here right now! YES I DO!!"
Richard Shiff was one of the best actors on the show.
I would say that he was the best, he was so subtle and yet he could convey so much emotion
The scene where CJ Gregg goes into his office to console him after his brother's death was absolutely phenomenal. Completely believable and heartbreaking besides. He balances overt prickliness with subdued warmth and walks that line effortlessly. It's actually hard to watch, he is just that good.
I think they are all competent actors, but it was the writing that set it apart. You could have Brando, DeNiro, Hoffman, and Streep and whoever you like, but unless the script is superior, you're going to have a mediocre show. I think Janney and Sheen are the best actors of the bunch. Sheen's career was already made, so it was a stop on the road for him. Of Janney, Whitford, Schiff, Hill, and everyone else, Janney's career is the one which went stratospheric. Schiff hasn't been in much, and Whitford and Hill stay busy. Compared to most TV actors, though, they're all doing well better than average. Most TV actors lucky enough to get a gig on a hit show just disappear after it ends. Anybody remember Richard Karn?
blackhawkswincup2010 Richard Schiff actually been busy he is on the ABC show The Good Doctor since the show started in 2017 as Dr. Aaron Glassman
Regifloat He still is . It was a cast of best actors riffing off of each other's excellence. Whenever he is in something I make a point of watching. He is also a really nice human being. My daughter worked as a PA on the show and, as everyone left on the day the show wrapped, he thanked her by name.
Amazing how Leo keeps his poker face throughout this.
The thing is, when Leo goes "I wouldn't give it a lot of thought" I always think "...oops." He says it a liiiittle too casually, especially knowing who he's talking to. Like, that's not a good way to get Toby to stop thinking about something. (To be fair, I'm not sure what would be.) The next scene, when Toby gets a more stonewall answer from him and Toby kind of grinds his teeth and goes "okay...", is when Toby really KNOWS that Leo is part of it. But I think that moment, when Leo tries to just cut off the conversation a bit too quickly, that's the moment a part of Toby realizes Something Is Seriously Wrong.
Anyway, not criticizing Leo, he did the best he could in the face of Toby's stubborn doggedness. I just love the way these two play off each other!
Real brinkmanship. Two old political pros. What's unspoken is truly what fuels the increasing tension and drama.
Richard Schiff was amazing in this role. Very few weak moments and as believable as it gets.
Toby never better when he arranged the veteran's funeral , the ending was one of the most moving scenes in any series or film ever , the whole episode was the perfect 10
Susan Tuckett Won an Emmy for it and also Richard Schiff said he cried every take after they cut cameras from the funeral.
Can’t believe only 16 votes. The funeral scene is the best Toby ever. Brings me to tears.
When you hire very very smart people who are very very good at taking disparate pieces of information, putting them together, and making 2+2=7 you cannot, cannot, cannot, get pissed when they do what they are very very good at...when you didn't want them to.
The sound of that ball bouncing against the floor, then the wall, and landing back into Toby's hand is similar to that of a pulse that Toby is monitoring.
Yes, Toby's quiet intellect was so well played. This episode just like his actions in "Little Drummer Boy" reveal the depth of his character. Whilst the President was upset when Toby organised the homeless Vet's funeral, Barlett still put his hand on Toby's shoulder. No words were necessary. Pure brilliance.
There are some beautiful subtleties in this scene. The first cut ("the same night"), as Toby is bouncing his ball, you can hear in the background, on either radio or TV, Senator Stackhouse (the one who filibustered the administration) being interviewed about autism funding. It mystified Toby at the time why Bartlett was so sympathetic to this filibuster. What Toby doesn't realize is that Bartlett's soft spot is in part due to his own struggle with MS. I think this is percolating in Toby's subconscious already at this point.
And Leo, by brushing him off too swiftly at 1:55, just adds fuel to the fire. Toby is smart enough to realize something IS being kept from him.
That...I never caught until you just pointed it out.
Damn.
Aaron Sorkin is just that good a writer, dude! There's a thousand things like this that I'm sure I haven't spotted yet, and I've rewatched TWW maybe 5 times through. It's unbelievably layered and filled with symbolism.
Brilliant observation and very well put.
Thank you. What always struck me about this scene is the way it demonstrates the truly staggering genius intellect of Toby Ziegler. Everyone else had to be told. He *figured it out*. And it wasn't just the Hoynes trip. Plenty of other people saw that and saw the connection to reelection, but even that alone wasn't enough (because otherwise he'd have just assumed what they did: that Hoynes was being Hoynes, the consummate ambitious dickhead). It was the little details that didn't fit right. Toby is an obsessive-compulsive type, you often see him in scenes picking and flicking at loose threads on his clothes. Fussy. So these little details, these cracks in the wallpaper of Leo's deception, just kept nagging at him and he HAD to figure it out. He couldn't just let it go. Which is why he *did* figure it out. :)
Minor detail but it's not Stackhouse being interviewed. It's one of the senators who came on to the floor to give Stackhouse a break. And I don't think Toby cared for one second about the filibuster. He was too focused on Hoynes to care what was happening with a bill in the Senate. It just so happened that the TV in Toby's office was tuned to the filibuster.
Toby is my favorite. I really loved the scenes with him and Sam Seaborn together. They played off each other so well.
Very well put. I couldn't agree more. When the West Wing was at its best (such as this episode) it was better than anything in the history of television, and I don't say that lightly. An out and out masterpiece. Man I miss this show.
What people disliked about Toby was that he was smarter than them. I'm not sure what bothered him more, the fact they didn't tell him in the first place, or the fact that they thought he wouldn't work it out for himself.
What bothered him was the idea that Leo might have been running the country and the President had a diagnosis that could make it impossible to carry out his duties. The third issue in order of priority was the lack of a letter being signed...a stupid part of the American system to be honest.
Toby really couldn't care less he was out of the loop in that context.
I love the way the sound of the bouncing ball continues as Toby and Leo talk at the end of the clip.
The sound of the thumping ball, like the heavy footfalls of a dogged detective.
TWW had some great sound moments. I always think about the use of New York Minute.
Came here because Tobys actor will be Odin in God if War Ragnarok
IMHO, the finest drama ever made, simply superb.
"What's goin' on, Leo?"
And Leo knows that it's all over - without saying a word!!!!
Brilliant television!!
Peter Formaini “And the walls come tumbling down.”
THE BALL IS TRUTH.
television at its finest. Two incredible actors at the peak of their form.
This is probably my favorite sequence in the entire series.
It's very fine, but I would give toppest marks to
[spoiler]
Zoey at the club, the kidnapping, Leo running for the first and only time in the series to tell his friend his daughter has been taken, the dropped tumbler and the blood-drained look Bartlett gives his wife.
It’s the only time they did a fast passage of time that didn’t feel clunky.
Really miss this show!!!! Some of the best writing and character development ever.
Sends chills up my spine. Every darn time.
The tension, the slow cracking at the wall of invisibility, the use of the ball as the sound of a heartbeat... All incredible.
And Toby hounded it out. The equivalent of figuring out Batman's identity. He knew.
I love Richard Schiff for the way he can speak so softly yet carry a deadly intensity.
god i miss that show. that was epic television right there.
The ball thing was actually Schiff's idea! He told Sorkin, If Toby ever has to figure something out, he should bounce this stickball off the wall. Sorkin figured out the right place to use it.
They stole the idea for "House".
I named my labradoodle after Toby. Tobias Roscoe. Rest In Peace “Toby” you were a good dog and a better friend than I ever had.
Absolutely my favorite Toby sequence! The functioning of a rational and superior mind as it works through an apparent anomaly or situation that appears to make no sense is brilliantly executed - and the music and sound effects are perfect!!!!
The finest show about politics ever made. Excellent cast. Characters you grew to love. 8 years of brilliant television
My West Wing kindred spirits...
After at least five times through TWW, this is how I've come to characterize the senior staff:
Sam was the brains
CJ was the voice
Josh was the heart
And Toby... Toby was the soul
Agree? Disagree? It's all good..
Who's here after finding out this man's playing Odin in God of War Ragnarok?
I miss this show so much...It was a great evening show...
If you've ever wondered what lead introverted Thinking looks like, this is it right here.
17 People is my favorite single episode of The West Wing besides Two Cathedrals.
It's such a killer episode that I didn't even notice it's the first one without CJ.
Neither did I until now
GREATEST scene of the show in my humble opinion. The first time I watched it here, I cried like a baby. It was so moving. Toby had outstanding character.
The Toby character was the most fascinating element of this magnificent drama series, which to me is the finest scripted network television show in history.
My only 'problem' with TWW is that all our real-life politicians pale in comparison to the characters.
+dlc1119 My favorite presidents: Lincoln, Bartlet, Roosevelt, Palmer, Washington.
which palmer? there were two
It should be required watching for incoming congressmen and women and reviewed each election year.
dlc1119 I couldn’t agree more, Obama was not even close to being Bartlett.
Maybe TWW is just fantasy bullshit that completely misrepresents what counts in politics, while what has been elected is much closer to the past, present & future reality of the world. I'd even go so far as to say that thinking TWW wasn't fantasy bullshit is what helped bring about the current state of affairs.
Odin, is that you?
This scene is filmed so well (with the ball sound going over the talking at the end really well filmed)
This is an example of every single element of a television show--writing, acting, music, sound, editing, photography--being done to absolute perfection.
Even the title cards, or whatever you call them, gave me goosebumps. Such a good show.
Toby had to many fine moments to choose just one. i did however adore this episode.
His finest moment was arranging the funeral of a homeless veteran.
Yes. That was his finest moment.
Truly one of the BEST programmes ever to grace television!!
That sound... like the _drip-drip-drip_ of water that can cut through a mile of rock.
There is NOTHING like a good strategic thinker. They can see through smoke, fog and steel…. Thank you Toby. This show taught me so much and I didn’t even know it at the time,
i'd watched the west wing before this but this episode made me a fan.
Whenever I rewatch West Wing, I look forward to this part.
The racket ball dound at the end is the exclamation point to a great scene from maybe the best written/produced/directed/acted TV show of all time.
This scene and the church scene in Undecideds.
Sweet Jesus I this is fantastic. I watched every episode of the West Wing when it was on TV, but I forgot just how amazing it is. I feel the need to get the DVDs and start from the beginning.
I did the same marathon recently! I have to say that the first four seasons were stellar with the first being the absolute best. I could really tell when Aaron Sorkin left. The mood and the writing changed. Watching them back to back,I could see the repetitiveness of certain situations. However, I was shocked, yet again, when Admiral Fitzwallace and Mrs. Landingham died. Loved both of them.
Such a great show, so well written!
Toby Ziegler is my spirit animal.
I came to exactly the same conclusion, even down to the vocab! Fascinating!
Sorry Chochanga, but while this was a good moment, it pales next to "in excelsis deo." I still cry.
The Whole series is streaming in HD on Amazon. I'm bleary eyed and into Season 5. I can't stop watching. Great Great show.
As the teaser is about to end, hearing Toby's ball bouncing harder and harder does a great job showing how tense things are in that room.
I like to imagine Leo told Toby just so he could get Toby to stop bouncing that ball off his desk
I love this cold open, one of the best. Spencers acting at around 3:46 is magic
When I see that face I think of Walter White putting his hands up and saying "you got me".