Get ready for thousands of bad Dungeon Masters
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- Опубліковано 21 кві 2023
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What I would love to see for the Monster Manual would be adding content like "The Monsters Know What They Are Doing".
I want to see art for at least three of everything to show possible variations and/or descriptions of each entry.
The problem is most GMs and players, after being raised on computer games, have no idea of how animals and monsters actually exist, back in the old days we saw ecology as important
I have this book. It's great. Even if you don't read it all, you can either refer to it, or get the kick up the backside you need to make better monsters.
MMDA - Make Monsters Dangerous Again. Players used to crap themselves when facing level-draining monsters. You had to be smart to defeat them.
You mean, exactly what they removed from Monsters of the Multiverse.
I just hope the new Player's Guide let's players know that DMs have final say on which races and classes exist in the campaign world.
I always tell my players what races/species are allowed in a campaign. You need to be FIRM.
If there's a public play system (and there will be) then that will set the expectation of the general public. You're probably f***ed in that regard.
Literally the first sentence in the players handbook of DnD, ADnD, ADnD 2e. ..... .. back when they had good writers.
I mean that is already in the current PHB, just that players often ignore it or DMs just allow whatever just for the sake of it.
Absolutely no gnomes.
The first DM guide for the BECMI game, had a sample adventure as literally the first thing in it. Had a small adventure in a castle, the first level was fully mapped and populated with description texts etc. The second level had a map, but left it up to the DM to populate, with some tips on what you could put there, and then the third level it was up to you to make up the map and populate. This approach literally allowed us back in the day, to start DMing really easily, and we did so as 11 and 12 year olds.
I don't have an issue per say with a GM trying to gently bring the players back to the plot he prepared for one simple reason: The GM also has the right to enjoy the game and if the way he does so is by seeing the player play what he prepared, then so be it.
People need to remember that playing a TRPG is a contract: The GM agrees to prepare a game for the players to enjoy and to do his best to adapt it to the players, but the players also have to agree that they should do their best to not go f off somewhere random and totally ignore the GM'S plot if the GM doesn't want this to happen.
In a situation where this contract is broken, then it might mean that the players and GM are not be the best fit to play together.
I came here to say this as well.
Basically I “plan” one and half sessions at a time. So the party can go where they want in time…but I have an idea of where we are going this session.
No such contract exists. A good GM will bring the story to the players rather than shoving the players towards the story. There seems to be a trust issue and an ownership issue between many new GMs and their players, which comes from over-preparing. Great stories don't come about from reading whatever thing the GM wrote down. Great stories come out of how the players interact with each other and the world around them, when the players have just as much say in where the story is going as the GM.
@@skwerelbless you and your bad opinions
You are planning wrong if the players have to get on plot for things to work.
Plan three city encounter ahead of time. Some event that is generic, then you ADD on to these encounters context based on what the players are doing. Keep these on the side ready to go for when the players are in a city.
Plan three village/town encounters ahead of time. Same as above. Just a generic event it doesn't have to be combat just some encounter for the players to bounce off of and that you can add context to based on what you players are doing.
Plan three wilderness encounters see above again the goal is not to plan out everything but to have enough things at hand for the players to do and they will direct the story. You are not there to tell the players what they will play.
Plan three "dungeon" encounters. have three encounters for the very start of a "Dungeon" ready that you can place into any start of a dungeon.
You have these 12 encounters in a portfolio ready at hand and you are ALWAYS prepared for your players. Once they get to a location you can flesh that out. Players rarely start a location and then just abandon it. If you really want to be ambitious add three locations totally mapped out and filled with encounters and loot ready to place in your world at a moments notice, but the 12 above will always keep you prepared for your players.
When an event is used put it aside and return to it in a different campaign, in the meantime replace used encounter/events as they are used ready for the next session. You don't need to have things "planned ahead" and railroad the players into that planned session. The players will TELL you what they want to do and if you have the foresight to build the 12 encounters I presented you have any player goal covered for your current session and once you know what the PLAYERS want to do you can plan for that.
GMs stop planning what your players will do next session and start letting your players tell you what they will do. The OP advice and position is antithetical to good gaming. The GM should say I want to run a game In X setting so I want you to make characters that fit this parameter and then stand aside and let the player direct the game. That is the contract the player agree to not we will do what the Gm wants us to do. If you need to get your players back "On Plot" you have failed as a GM and you quite frankly suck at the role and should hone your skills. The GM is NOT in charge of the campaign. The Gm is in charge of the setting and the encounters and that is it the rest of it is the players domain. Stop treading on your players toes.
GMs really screw up saying I will create adventure hook X to take them to Y location so they can to Z encounters. Players will invariably ignore hook X and be attracted to tangent A, that takes them to location B and expect you to run C encounters and it is a poor Gm that complains that they did all their prep work for location Y and it is the player responsibility to go to Y so you can run Z encounters.
I’ve always had a collaborative experience between or before sessions about how to incorporate backstory beats, getting temperature out of what the individual players and party and GM are wanting out of the experience. Having some overarching plot or arcs or beats isn’t antithetical to role play or open game experiences.
Plot = focus of the campaign. Players can do whatever they want, but DM put work in the game and if they ignore all story hooks and BBEG's shenanigans, they have to deal with the consequences.
It's the part of social contract - DM prepares the story for the group, players follow the threads. Otherwise there is no campaign - just series of episodic one-shots without deeper meaning.
Often this is part odf discussion during session 0. If there is an agreement about campaing focusing on world-ending event that could be prevented by group of epic heroes, but players focus only on finding missing puppies, they probably find out that the world ended in the meantime (or even better - was saved by group of people who actually cared and players were just comic relief in that story).
Agreed. The idea that the DM shouldn't guide the story *at all* is very weird to me. I've played in games with a clear goal (even if that goal was just "clear the monsters out of this dungeon") and ones that purported to be "open sandboxes", and the ones with goals have always been more engaging and fun. If that makes me a railroad-lovin' zombie, then so be it.
@@JKevinCarrier One way to do it is progressively ramp up the difficulty and restrict the freedom as the big bad get what they wants in the background.
Good luck going to a bar, if ash is all that remains of its owners and patrons.
This is where threat clocks are useful. The players aren't interested in a plot hook about strange lights coming from the direction of a long-abandoned temple in the woods? Fine, in either a set amount of time or at a milestone or whenever, the cult completes their ritual, which probably doesn't bode well for the nearby village. Even if your adventurers have moved on, they can still encounter refugees or rumours about the state of things behind them. As long as your threats act on their own timetable, they at worst provide a narrative backdrop for whatever the protagonists are doing.
Yeah like there is always some extent of "plot" that has to exist outside the players otherwise why are they even there.
@@JKevinCarrier I think ts generational :) Old grognards like me are naturally sandbox, and actually dont understand rail based approaches, the story is considered OBVIOUSLY emergent .. how could it not be? .. guys like you who have had their expectations "trained" by console games are railroad lovin zombies.
Yeah, the Monster Manual skates under the radar because the DMG is such a mess, but the MM needs help, too.
One thing 4E did right was include a "Monster Lore" entry with each monster. Your players could use one of their skills to uncover bits and pieces of information about each creature listed: habits, communities, physical traits, history, etc.
Regardless of one’s feelings about 4e as a whole (I absolutely love it), the 4e MM and DMG were a perfect template for presenting game information in a useful and easily-digestible way.
@@eitherorlok Could NOT agree more, Buddy! ✌
I'll give a shoutout to AD&D 2nd Ed, which had morale, ecology and other kinds of "world-building" info to bring the critters to life.
@Vince Lang agreed! Pouring through my dad's 2e manual is what got me fascinated with fantasy as a kid. Not sure I would have gotten this far into the hobby if they were like the 5e books
@@vincelang3779 Yeah 2e had a immense ammount of lore and ecology for each entry. 4e and 5e have barely anything.
"thats called an index" broke me so hard, i nearly teared up laughing. 🤣🤣🤣
Nobody uses it
@@jayteepodcast It might be more useful if they didn't make the page numbers nearly invisible
The guy is not decribing and index in the video. He's describing a page at the end of the book showing where to find X or Y rule.
Not a generic index at the start with "Rules page 5". Is a page showing "Attack Rolls page 6", "Saving Throws page 7", "Restrained page 76", "Grapple page 38".
Is a complement for the index
@@gabrielamaral978I think you are confusing an index for a table of contents
Emergent Play in Action
DM: “You can do anything you want.”
Players: We go over there and kill something, then we go over there and kill something, and then we go over there and kill something else - and that becomes the Ballad of the Party Who Killed Things!
That's when you realize it is time to start shuffling your player roster because it isn't meeting your expectations. Though, perhaps that could've been avoided from the start.
What if everyone you know has a murder hobo fantasy though?
That sounds like fun, if the group all want to play in that style.
I ask what the next campaign should be like, just consensus on broad genres; e.g. murderhobo sandbox, courtly intrigue with PvP, planar superhero theme park. That way I know what to lean into, where to focus (like robust travel, crunchy combat, simple NPC interaction for my first example above).
I'm loving the idea of the "Ballad of the Party Who Killed Things" as a descriptive elevator pitch. I think I'm gonna test-drive this format going forward. I quickly came up with these three titles for my examples:
"Bloodsoaked Boogie-Woogie"
"A Song of Incest and Fratricide"
"Mix/Max Prog Opera"
It was fun, and I bet it would reinforce tone and playstyle expectations, for both DM and party. I know I'm guilty of drifting away from the initial setup, like high-fantasy fireworks gradually morphing into swords & sandles stealth - Shannara becomes Conan.
(edited to add last sentence)
A DM might permit anything but they should encourage and incentivise the plot.
I don't get why they don't just make a lore master's guide to D&D. That way people who are really interested in lore can pay them an extra $20-$60 for stuff they've already made but consolidated into 1 easy to find resource, and the DMG can focus on rules and tips to keep your games running smoothly.
*nods in Paizo*
When Chris Perkins talks about a plot and a story I think it's worth giving the context that he's known for writing adventure paths and convention games which are very focused on delivering a story. Some players I've played with have asked me to railroad them before and want an actual story. I'm a writer by trade so I can understand that desire and work with it, but I've also played games that are entirely improvised. Not every game/group is anti-railroad.
I've had games where I want _nothing_ more than for the DM to actually give me something to work with as a genuine plot hook but all the DM lays out are gotchas and "you can try"s.
@@FlameUser64 I think I only say 'you can try' as a joke because most people know it's a meme answer by now. A lot of the games I play are more story-focused so it's hard to apply dnd-style advice to them.
@@BrandonPaul I've been _genuinely_ "You can try"'d basically every time I've ever asked "can I do X". Even if I clarify "Does my _character_ think they can feasibly do X" I just get "I don't know, do they?"
Aren't there any dungeons in this "Dungeons and Dragons" game?
Not unless you build one. I wouldn't want to railroad you...
The best thing about the 5e DMG was the "when starting a campaign you first need to think about what Gods are in your world". Yes that is the first thing I think about when preping for a session xD
This advice trundles along, divorced from all context, because in classic dungeons and dragons worlds like the forgotten realms literally every single thing in the entire world is caught up in the Hobbesian god war and every single villain and quest giver on the entire planet eventually tracks back to some church or another.
So choosing your evil gods is choosing your villains, and choosing your good gods is choosing your good guys, and everything is supposed to flow logically from what it means that the worst people in the world all have the direct and undeniable magical backing of the goddess of werewolves. Which *nobody actually tells you to do* so the list of deities just sits there not doing anything.
My most favorite settings of all time didn't have gods. They had very, very, very powerful entities but no gods. Motivation for adventuring gets a lot more localized when the powerful entities don't care about your little corner of the world.
It's not even that having a guide for laying out one's setting cosmology is a bad thing. It's just that this isn't the most important thing a DM should learn in the book about how to DM. The important thing is how to structure a game session, how to make dungeons, how to seed an adventure, the different ways you can structure adventures (sandbox, railroad, mystery, etc), how to adjudicate problems at the table, etc.
The way you start a campaign is plopping the party down in a world and getting them to the adventure as quickly as possible. What divine forces are at play is a distant concern to just _getting the game going._ You could go multiple sessions without telling your players what country they're in, let alone who the gods are. (I mean, Cleric and Warlock players probably want to know this stuff. But it's not THAT big a deal if they operate on a placeholder or, better yet, get to define their patrons themselves.)
The first DMG I read was the one in the Red Box, so kind of first edition i think?
It had two floors of a 3 floor dungeon mapped out and fully explained, and a map for the third, but with the words "here's a dungeon map we drew, fill it yourself! Don't forget to add extra floors afterwards if you want!"
...
I should dig that one out and read it again, it could be interesting.
We have that one, too.
The old D&D Red Box DMG did include a dungeon but only the ground floor (level 1) was fully fleshed out. The lower floor (level 2) was only a map although there were suggested monsters to stock it with. Level 3 didn't have a map but it was suggested that this is where the party would find the evil wizard Bargle (the bastard that killed the cleric Aleena) along with bodyguards and decoys.
The 5 box sets for BECMI D&D was the best format for learning the game. 🔴🔵🟢⚫🟡All you had to to was read the basic players booklet and by the end of the tutorial you already knew how combat works with To-Hit rolls, Armor Class, damage and saving throws... and that was half the game back then. The tutorial also provided examples of encounters and NPC's that would act as a guide to new DM's on how to layout and write an adventure. As simplified as 5E rules may be, the game is not exactly easy to to learn. With BECMI the rules were more complex in comparison, but they were introduced in a stepped progression throughout the box sets so it would not overload the players with countless options and rule sets they may not be ready for.
The DM booklets also started small, a single ruins/dungeon on the edge of a town, that would slowly widen the world that the DM must create. After building a town and a nearby dungeon, was the wilderness and far off dungeons between the first town and the next, then the region and continents those towns resided, then the world as a whole and finally the universe and the realms of immortals. News DM's only had to worry about 2 locations: The safe town players can rest and buy equipment, and the deadly dungeon at the edge of town. Story hook was simple: Lets try to find the evil magic-user Bargle, he's hiding somewhere in the ruins at the edge of town. The expectations for 5E Dungeon Masters is that they have to have the entire campaign world fleshed out to run a 1st-level adventure... and that's a lot of work to be dumping on new DMs that just learned what the dice look like.
@PGIFilms yep, you're dead right.
That tutorial adventure in the player's handbook was fantastic, i really enjoyed it as a kid.
@@PGIFilms You're absolutely correct! So many people who want to be DMs and are encouraged to be DMs, but falter at the thought of having to memorize all the (outside of being a Player) rules and trying to create a Michelangelo ceiling when all you have is white plaster and some charcoal.
17:44 I honestly wished when I played 5e that Travel was more seen as "part of the fun" and less as "the thing that's getting between us and fun"
I completely agree, but it's something that's very hard to do right
@@destinpatterson1644 it is hard only if the shared cultural knowledge in the community is forgotten by newer waves of players and left only to circulate in the older circles, egged on by newer editions ignoring it
@@user-jq1mg2mz7o Eh, it really does call for a specific kind of genre for travel to matter.
What i would say about "getting to the plot" is if the players know you are running Out of the Abyss, there is an expectation that there will be an abyss and the players want to get out of it. Just as bad as the DM railroading is the players derailing the campaign.
If you run Tower of the Stargazer and once in game the players say "ah we are not interested in the tower that is the namesake to this adventure, we want to check out some orc caves... that is a problem
Have something in those orc caves lead the players back to the tower, or just rob them and stick their money in the tower, that’s how I would approach it
Or even better, make the tower so enticing that they want to go there.
It can help as a DM to keep a solid timeline. A lot of premade adventures won't have time accounted for - all the encounters just happen when the party gets around to it. When you're busy or if it's a one shot, this is fine, but for a full campaign it just makes the players complacent. Oh, those kids have gone missing? They'll be fine, we'll get to it eventually. Oh no, a cult is doing a summoning ritual that requires the full moon? Probably have time, it'll be the full moon when we get there.
No, those kids went missing twelve hours ago, if the party leaves within the next two hours and travels quickly they might get there in time, otherwise those kids are dead - and they get to explain it. And that cult? Yeah, the full moon happens in five days. The party has five days. If they forget, if they go off course, too bad, they now have the full-ass demon to deal with.
It's not railroading, and it really doesn't add too much prep for a DM - it can even help, because you can have secret factions and the enemy being tracked in your own notes and know that it's not forced. It's not a scripted loss or a railroad for a rival party to claim a treasure first or for the bad guy to complete a goal on schedule, so long as the party are aware that these elements, these factions, are in play and you as a DM are plotting out a reasonable timeline that accounts for the capabilities of the enemies. (I have always hated the trope of enemies just showing up out of nowhere with no good explanation for it, just because the plot says 'insert drama here')
Keeping a timeline won't stop players that just aren't interested in the main storyline to begin with, but at that point if it's more than one person, it's really time to change things up anyway. What it will do is help to evolve the world in a way that makes sense and force both the players and the DM to really consider the consequences of the actions they take.
Where are the Orc caves in relation to the tower? (If the players want to check out the Orc caves the DM probably told them that there were some Orc caves.... It should come as no surprise to the players if the Orc caves turn out to be the back door to the tower in question.... ) As for keeping a solid timeline.... Yeah I think time sensitive quests do require the DM to keep track of time and how long the players have been puttering around, if they take issue with the fact that the cultists did the ritual and summoned the thing because they weren't there to stop them before the full moon and so now the children are possessed zombie demons or whatever.... Well that's their problem to deal with now. Don't deal with the old problems before the clock runs out? They become bigger problems.... Ignore the plot too long? Well congrats things have escalated to full on demon invasion/doomsday scenario... Now the players have to work on figuring out how to close the summoning portals if they want to not have demons trying to rip their faces off.... (Or figuring out a way to flee to another world if they figure they screwed up too badly on this one...)
Honestly unless I'd corralled them into the Stargazer tower, e.g. via some kind of "ticking clock" situation, and they want to go Orc hunting, I'd take them Orc hunting. Their characters, their choice.
Railroading was a huge innovation in modules back in the early 80s. Before almost every module was a location with some background and little too no plot. People ultimately want a story, and yeah, you can do that with a sandbox. You can have a plot without railroading and players can have fun reacting and discovering a Dm's plot. There is a reason Pathfinder adventure paths are celebrated so much. They have structure .
1000% this.
This is absolutely wrong while is true that most modules had more of a sandbox style (emphasis on exploration is the actual term that you are looking for ) and is a perfectly valid opinion to like them more, a lot of the older modules where railroads too since once you got to a place they turned in adventure pc games with mars logic and situations that kill you if you did not do what the module wanted exactly sometimes even with the "logic from mars" problem or they were just dungeon crawls-like with no plot at all and more of a board games feel to them(and that is also fine) but lets not pretend as if the older books were just better, to be honest is more of a matter of taste and accepting that freedom and plot are by definition opposing concepts and the point is finding what balance of them do you want.
Oh, if you think the DMG is badly organised, this is a picnic compared to "Character Law & Campaign Law" from I.C.E's Rolemaster. After the briefest summary of what the sections of the book are about, it opens up with its first solid rules Section. "Healing Injuries and Death". Important first topics for the new GM include death and soul departure and the difference between dying from criticals and dying from concussion hit points (HP). Good old times.
I recall Rolemaster.
aka Rollmaster.
aka RSImaster.
A game where you can die buying a beer.
About directed stories versus free-form/improv play styles.. it really depends on the group.
Some groups I have played in were very active and invested in the world/campaign, and there often was little need to lead them around by the nose, or drag them into some railroad plot. I have also been in some groups where, if they weren't offered a tasty plot on a hook, they would just sit and spin and literally go nowhere, then get completely disinvested in the campaign and eventually quit.
Thus, I think that is really about having a variety of tools in your toolbox, and knowing when and where to use them to improve the players' experience with your game. Sometimes, railroad plots can be fun, but I do agree that they should not be the only way to run a game. ie, use them sparingly and judiciously, especially in cases where the players get stuck in a rut and the game stalls.
Is saying "There's some bad guy over there doing bad guy things" railroading? Because that's the sort of thing I expect the DM to bring to the table. Sure, if the players have an idea for something they want their characters to do, listen and build on those ideas, but if they're just goofing around the city and players are getting bored, have something that's going to happen to lead them to action.
Looking forward to that Chapter 8 "Elf Breeding Farm" 🤣
They traditionally have DMG advice on different genres, like Epic Fantasy, Mythic, Swords & Sorcery, Horror etc. Surely about time they added the very popular Harem Fantasy (& Reverse Harem Fantasy), right?!
Catboy ranch?
You mean Dwarf farm right?
The most useful 5e book I have is Sly Flourish's Lazy DM's Workbook. It's a 40 page paperback that contains nothing but all of the useful tables, charts, and graphs in the DMG.
The 5e DMG is a great resource full of useful information beyond just the magic item tables and that one page with firearms rules. It's just formatted and organized in a way that makes it impossible to find anything.
DMs: ...
Perkins: "Chapter 8 is a surprise!"
DMs: "Why does it need to be? It is a game ruleset. What monstrosity are you hiding?!?"
It's an ad block for their other products, like old comic books had a page or two of ads in the middle.
@@JayskaTeag 2024/50th Anniversary edition D&D vs Red Hot Chewing Gum.
I'll take the gum please.
Coupon Code for 10% off in the Dnd Beyond store?
The parts of the existing 5th edition DMG that we all use: Chapter 7, Magic Items.
Parts I do use and occasionally reference: Chapter 5 for adventure Environments, Chapter 8 for Running the Game (mostly the madness tables), and Appendix B for monsters by Environment and CR (because this is in the DMG and not the Monster Manual, for some reason.)
For that matter, why are the rules for building your own monster in the DMG and not the Monster Manual? I mean I know why, I just think it would be more useful in the book where all the monsters are.
Chris Perkins reminds me of a number of District Managers I've had in retail, in that he knows the company he works with is full of shit but puts on a happy face and lies for them. 😂
I think he is part of the problem. Can we say space monkey slave trade?
The Lingering Injury Table and the Madness Tables have been a go to for me for most of my campaigns since 2015. I use a lot of the magical item tables.
And the planar section has seen quite a lot of use.
I have been DMing/GMing since the late 90s so I don't need a lot of hand holding but I have made quite a lot of use from the 5e DMG.
Yeah me too honestly. It's seen regular use by me, and later most of my players as they became DMs. It could certainly use improvement, but it's far from useless.
Just remember, we all started out as bad Dungeon Masters, even if we didn't recognize it in ourselves.
I'm still a bad dungeon master, which is why I don't DM.
Sure, I could DM and get better. I'd just rather do other things with my time.
@@Unsensitive Fully understanable, and the primary reason so many choose to be players and not GMs.
Most of us are still "bad" DMs even after 30+ years experience. Most of us are terrible players. The key is to acknowlede our flaws, try to improve, and enjoy the ride with like-minded individuals that are equally bad, trying to improve, and looking forward to enjoying the ride.
@@0ptikGhost Amen to that
My wife had a look through my DM guide when she was prepping for a fun one shot for xmas, she almost cancelled the game because she got overwhelmed from reading some of it - I had to explain to her that you don’t need to do ANYTHING in that book
Was it fun? Did she have fun?
“The plot is what the players are doing “ Thank you
The only DMGs that teach DMs to actually be Dungeon Masters are AD&D 1e's DMG and D&D 4e's DMGs. Both these do the job of giving the required information that DMs must have to run these games. The 5e DMG is the worst.
Are the kids these days even aware of 1st edition?
@@DeadInside-ew8qb I bet you can confuse the hell out of at least a few of them by pointing out that "1st ed" is actually AD&D, and D&D was technically a separate game at the time (and remained separate until 3rd).
I disagree with the idea that having a "plot" is some cardinal sin. Like, if you want a sandbox, there's nothing wrong with that, but when I sit down to plan a game, it starts with a "why," and usually a "why" that is independent of any one player's ideas. Then I approach a group and say, "This is what I'm running, if you would like to play ***this game,*** you may join."
If their character doesn't want to interact with the driving force of the game I made, ok, bye! Have fun elsewhere, I wanted to run this, and you agreed to it. I'm more than open to helping people weave their parts into my world, but I've been running games in this setting for half a decade, there's hundreds of pages of lore and past adventures already, not even counting the summaries of the prior games. Yes, my job as a DM has been a lot harder than a normal DM, I'd wager.
Edit; "Dungeons and Dragons falls apart at higher levels," uhhh, yeah? SO they should fix that maybe? I LIKE high level play, I'd LOVE if it fucking worked.
I agree that styles and genres need to be a focus. Also, can we put player etiquette in the first few pages of the PHB?
We didn't call it "session zero" back then, but I knew 3.* GMs & Pathfinder GMs who insisted on a gathering of all ppl who would be playing so they could lay out what kind of campaign they planned for, issues of setting and mechanics that might affect how ppl play or develop, as well as the basic "ground rules" and practicalities of how we'd be playing (point buy or rolled stats, starting level & wealth, schedule expectations, etc.).
I don't know that I agree with how you characterize a plot as anathema to the game: you may not call it a plot, but many of us have a bunch of setting, NPCs & series of events that will unfold whatever the PCs choose, though they absolutely can and should affect those events & characters. Knowing that the lich has been behind the mysterious necromantic outgrowths being found in the campaign world, causing undead to rise at random around the island, and she intends to ultimately bind these "nexus objects" into powerful artifacts allowing her to raise a stillborn godling as a powerful tool and ally, doesn't alter the PCs' autonomy or capacity to act, it only gives them a world to interact with, choices to make. It's a plot, but it isn't railroading: if they reject the plot hooks, fine, but that stuff will be going on in the background, and they will have to adapt to the changes coming about in the setting which might interfere with their personal goals like dungeon delving, or bringing home a pile of treasure to stop the king's tax collectors taking their childhood home, or liberating the village of slaves they escaped, or finding a purple pimp hat (thanks for that memory, Jeff). They can do all that stuff: they're just going to also be dealing w/ undead everywhere and a steady influx of refugees from nearby settlements who were overrun by roaming zombies and ghouls, as well as the notoriety they gain if they progress to high enough status, which would make them the focus of leaders who feel the PCs would make a good solution for their undead problem.
It's a plot, but it doesn't alter their agency.
Lasly, it's FIFTH EDITION (no no no, the *NEW* 5th edition, but it's 5th edition).
The 3.5 DMG2 had a half-chapter that was one of the most valuable pieces of gamemastering advice I ever seen. It split players into archetypes based on what the player wanted out of the game, and gave suggestions on ways to modify your presentation of the same encounters in order to please them:
The Storyteller (describe rooms and background info, emphasize how their character is impacting the world), the Supercooler (always play up how cool the character looks, and avoid situations that directly embarrass them), the Tactician (give occasional situations where players have time to set up a plan, and let the plans work out realistically even if they shorten an encounter that was supposed to be epic), the Troublemaker (give them occasional daring escapes, and try to make time for weird one-off special rolls like swinging on a chandelier), and even the Lurker (include a segment at the start and/or finish where you just hang out, which is what they're really there to do. Maybe make it a shared meal!).
I think the new DMG should have a section of best-practices, how-not-to-suck-as-a-DM advice. It doesn't even have to be very long.
Yeah don't use anything from the movie in your game. That would be some great advice.
The first bit of advice in the new DMG should be, "Burn this book, and order Old School Essentials"
@@pccleric Bring in everything that you think is cool from every movie you've ever watched. Don't even bother to file off the serial numbers. What could possibly go wrong?
How to deal with problematic players would be a nice addition to D&D tbh.
From memory the idea of a Session Zero really started appearing in rule books during the Indy boom of the mid-late 2000s. Although not called 'Session Zero', getting everyone around the table and talking about what they wanted from the game and involved in world/character building was part of the game/rules itself.
As to whether to Plot or Not, my take is that neither is good or bad, or better or worse. As long as everyone in the group is happy with the choice made then it should all be golden? I do think calling Having A Plot=Railroading is a bit hyberlolic though
I don't know. I stared to play in the early 90's and we still had a day we all got together to physically create our chracters and talk with each other about what we were thinking. The DM was present to answer vague questions about the setting and approve waky ideas. We had a married couple that wanted to roleplay a relationship in game. It didn't go very far, only lasted a few sessions. In any case, we didn't call it session zero. We just called it making characters. Perhaps we were one offs...
I do want to push back on the idea that having a plot or steering the players back to it necessarily constitutes railroading. Maybe plot wasn't the best word and perhaps "goal" might have been better. Generally, most campaigns have some kind of goal for the players to accomplish, whether that be treasure to find, a BBEG to thwart, or a beautiful dragon to save from a terrifying princess. Something the GM has prepared where the players can go roll dice, kill things, and be big damn heroes. I see the question of "how do you allow players to change your campaign while still being able to steer back to the plot" as less "oops, you killed the plot critical NPC, time to reload the save" and more "you killed the plot critical NPC, how does the campaign continue from here and how will it change the trajectory of the overall adventure." I think it'll be especially helpful for newer dungeon masters who maybe aren't comfortable creating a pure sandbox where every plot beat is purely decided by the players and who may find comfort in the structure of a general adventure outline. Honestly, if the advice is good, it may lead to less railroading, rather than more. Having an overarching plot isn't railroading, railroading happens when that plot takes precedence over player agency.
This may also be helpful for DMs looking to add a bit more freedom to pre-written adventure paths, which by their very nature are much more structured than a homebrew campaign and many of them don't have contingencies should something happen to derail things.
I dunno, I just think that "If you have an overarching plot for your campaign, you're railroading" is a bad message to send, especially to the target audience for this new DMG, people looking to try their hand at DMing a game.
For new groups with a first time DM and first time players: a loose railroad (or "waterslide" as Brennan Lee Mulligan calls it) set in a sandbox is a fantastic approach. If your players don't understand how much agency they have in the world, then structuring adventures they lead themselves down is a great introduction. Learn to crawl, I suppose. Experienced players and DMs would probably disregard that part of the DMG anyway.
There is a big difference between the plot (what is happening) and how the players interact with the plot (they hunt down the plot's BBEG). Railroading is removing player agency and choice. Having a plot, aka something for the players to do, is essential.
I'm not sure I would call that a plot so much as it is having something for the players to engage with if they want
@@dungeonsanddiscourse that's what a plot is. The driving force of the story. The reason the players are doing things. Even if it's being spun as you go, you, the DM, are still responsible for making the plot go somewhere. Otherwise the player actions have no impact.
@@Jeagan2002 My last campaign I started feeding them breadcrumbs about the plot around 3rd level. They largely ignored my breadcrumbs, and NPCs and dungeons but they still ended up following the plot because I adapted it to where they were in the game. Ultimately, they did the thing, the game ended, and supposedly everyone was happy.
I wouldn't call it _essential;_ sandboxes don't necessarily need a BBEG and are just fine as effectively collections of spontaneous one-shot dungeons etc. if that's your jam. But if the DM/GM/narrator/referee/whatever has invested creative juices and/or hard money in a developed plot, only for the players to actively flee from it, then the latter are frankly douches.
@@twincast2005 Even if the plot is just 'run the dungeon,' it's still a plot. The plot is the central story. The players choose how they interact with it.
To me, "the plot is what the players at the table do" sounds so chaotic xD
Ofc I have a plot, a prepared adventure, and I want the players to do what I have prepared, that's not railroading. It's a liniear adventure (most of the time). Railroading would be me forcing the players to do exactly what I "want" and that all challanges only can be solved in a determined way.
But as is stated, ever GM is different and brings an unique experience to the table!
I’m currently running a game where the plot is immensely driven by the players actions and what they just decide to do. As long as you have an idea of the sandbox (major landmarks, dungeons, npc’s, etc.) that the players are in and you ask them ahead of the session what they plan on pursuing, the game runs in a really organic and interesting way. Anything else is fun improve and random tables help with this. I get to discover the game while they do and it makes it feel like a living world and not just some novel I wrote.
The 1st ed DMG is an interesting read because it largely amounts to Gary Gygax's commentary on the state of DnD at the time
Yup, back when you had quality writers. Read the 2e ADnD DMG, still used today. It is just, that, good.
@@silverthorngoodtree5533 I have two 1st Ed. DMGs, and use them all the time. The 2E one wasn't bad, but it isn't as good as the original.
Along with types of government, gambling games, effects of alcohol, types of insanity, compiled Monster Manual stats with experience awards, etc. I loved that book.
it's a really long blogroll of mini articles on campaign rules. Good stuff
It's probably still the best officially published D&D product for GMs.
The Rules Cyclopedia is a product produced two times before in which the rules for different things are presented, page by page, in alphabetical order. So for example the rules for a dragon's horde, and the rules for drowning, are located on the same page, because DRagon and DRowning both start with the letters DR. What happens when a character says they DUck would be at the start of the next page.
I’m not sure I entirely agree with your point about plot and railroading - I think the DM or GM plays a very central role in creating the overarching framework for the adventure to take place…otherwise it’s at risk of not being a campaign, but a series of one-shots stitched together in a serial sequence. The DM/GM must play an important part in creating the conditions for a narrative to blossom and form. I agree that railroading isn’t great, but there must be a reason these people have come together to achieve some sort of aim, and the DM/GM must play a role in that raison d’etre…
A book D&D guide book I feel is great to read is Castle Keeper's guilde for Castles and Crusades. It has great things for everyone and not just for Castles and Crusades.
Right on
They should just bundle the new DMG with free pdfs of the Basic and Expert DM sections.
Those taught you how to make a dungeon adventure site, run it and manage the game as a referee, then once you have that down, expand on to a hex crawl and world adventuring.
Add the village, locale and a basic dungeon (as well as a second location for the new DM to fill out themselves) you suggested and that should help so much more.
Co-worker at work is in a 5e group and wants to try her hand at DMing so have lent her my BX books and are working with her on that and the Ah Ha moments on the foundations still apply to 5e
Yeah, Moldvay did it best. Mentzer (and Cook/Marsh) also did a lot of great work in getting new DMs running. Nothing since really matches up IMO. (Although I personally came in via Fighting Fantasy & then 1e AD&D).
"we are putting more monsters in" totally new and securely copyrighted monsters
I think we can safely say that the point of including 'more lore' in the new DMG is the simple fact that homogenization of the game is a necessary overarching goal for the crazy monetization of the game that Hasbro desires to be a reality. Railroading more people into using as many pre-made adventures as possible and discouraging the way the game has evolved is eventually going to be a corporate overlord demand, which will be great for other TTRPGs and best case for Hasbro result in a watered-down version of TTRPG come into the mainstream. Far more likely, we are just seeing the next death of D&D, and some other company will eventually have to revive it, just like WotC once did. *shrugs* personally I'm looking forward to the death of the current corporate dragon sitting atop the hoard and have already (Like starting around 2007) jumped ship for Paizo's products. As far as 'bringing players back to the narrative' goes, I bring the narrative to the players. Not come hell or high water. I let them mostly steer the ship, but for a good story the antagonists need to also have some sort of agency, which is what I'm providing as a GM.
The irony that the 4e red box starter set was a super simple adventure of one wilderness scene and then into the dungeon ypu go that all fits on a flip battlemap. Since it was 4e, the adventure guide heavily gave instructions to the newbie DM on how to run the monsters and various challenges inside the dungeon including how to act as the green dragon and the associated skill challange until you get to the bbeg necromancer. The 4e starter set was a better guide to how an adventure structure works than the 5e DMG haha
As a life-long DM, I feel this video in my soul!
Session 0 was around for ages before 5e, though typically organically as "the session where we get together to make our characters and discuss what we'd like to see in the game."
One of the first instances I recall of it being codified in a TTRPG is in Spirit of the Century, the predecessor to Fate. IDR if they called it Session 0.
I love her idea to expand the monster manual. Making it less of a list of stat blocks and turning into a more proper bestiary. Because it would HELP SO MUCH with making random encounters.
Re: 'Rules Cyclopedia' I think what he means is that the DMG has tiny bits and pieces of rules scattered everywhere. There's like a cutaway for some optional rule every like three pages, so if you're looking for a specific rule, it's nigh impossible to find because they're all over the place. Sounds like they're gonna bring all those little bits and pieces into one place, which is a thousand times better formatting than having to hunt it down in the index (which does already exist, iirc). Easier to flip to and search through that way.
Re: the D&D movie bringing in new players, that's just product placement in this video and totally irrelevant to the new book. If they think it is they're deluding themselves. They're releasing the new DMG _next_year_, the movie is out now. The new player spike from the movie is gonna be now, not a year from now.
I won't be buying the new books, my table's no longer running 5e, but I'll probably take a look at a pdf of the DMG when it drops. Sounds like a lot of improvements, just.. Like.. A decade too late to actually be meaningful to 5e DMs. Some people will get use from it, and that's great, but the edition needs a lot more than a new DMG.
The section on alternative healing, sanity and honour are good. 1e AD&D DMG is a great book. Have re-read it recently and it has so much good stuff in it.
Pretty poorly organised but the best content of any DMG
I think what Perkins means by "get back to the plot" is how to reveal the consequences of the players ignoring a threat, which will draw them back towards what was happening earlier. A BBEG doesn't just stop existing because the player's just to ignore the hints that it's a problem that needs to be dealt with.
In my campaigns the world is alive around the players. In my campaigns, the NPCs have plans. Villains have timetables. The players can interact as much or as little as they want with my story. The best example of this was a quaint fishing village that I created with my players. Everyone contributed a couple NPCs and some local landmarks. Everyone wrote backstories for themselves and their close friends and families. I had hoped that all of this effort would lead to a sense of immersion that would make a real sense of fear (it was horror campaign, but think creeping dread, not slasher). The players knew there was something wrong in the town. Unfortunately for me, my players didn't really care. All my work and effort and they turned my game into some kind of Farmville town simulator. A couple of them literally bought an orchard. They would get annoyed that my scripted events would happen. I'm kind of proud that I made and ran a world that they truly enjoyed, but not as proud as I was at the shock and horror on their faces when the cultists summoned an elder god by sacrificing the girl scout troop that was up on the mountain with the mother of one of the PCs as a troop leader. I hadn't prepared for a post-apocalyptic survival game, but that's what we got.
Even as an "old school" player, I use little if any of the "lore" of D&D, as I tend to make my own rules. I think the lore would be off in settings products rather than taking up space in the DMG, which in theory should be setting agnostic.
Totally agree. However, I'm pretty sure WotC wants to sell as many modules as possible. I wouldn't be surprised if this book leans into steering people towards the type of DM'ing that works best with a module. Read our in-universe Lore, here's how you get players "back on track.", have an example of what we produce in the form of this on-boarding mini-adventure.
I agree that a beginner module put in the DMG would make a lot of sense. Although technically everything else you suggested initially was already in the current DMG, the issue was that it was just bad.
22:28 Charlie the Choo-choo! Didn’t expect to see this in a DnD video.
PointyHat made a video some time ago arguing, that railroading in some form or another is part of all but the most sondboxy adventures and can actually be a good thing in many contexts if used wisely by the DM. And I'm saying this as pretty open DM myself. For example the group misses an essential information in the hideout. How do you react as a DM? Do you simply shrug and say: We might get somewhere with this. Some experienced DMs can react to this and develop the story on the fly, propably in a totaly different direction leading to the city getting razed by demons (for example). This can be an absolute form of art leading to unforgettable gameplay sessions or a slugfest of indecission and a feeling of beeing let alone by the DM. For most DMs the route of thinking about a reasonable way to get this information to the Group, so they can continue the investigation, is absolutely fine. Maybe some traitor shows up or they intercept some henchmen on the way back to the city. The info could also be found at other places like the library etc. This is tecnically also a form of soft railroading leading to a faster type of gameplay.
I cannot express how much I disagree with 'Every player is a dungeon master' because that's just not true. I think I understand your point being about collaborative story-telling, but frankly speaking, saying that 'every player is a dungeon master' is incredibly reductive, and doesn't even start to address how hard it is to actually DM. Because it's hard. If you're doing it right, it is HARD. Every player doesn't fashion and balance encounters, every player doesn't carefully tweak the stat blocks of the enemies to ensure they're the right power scale to provide the party a challenge without being overwhelming. Every player doesn't draft city maps, create NPC cast lists with descriptions and voices and personalities, and create narrative arcs and storylines for the players to engage with.
Every player is necessary for the story, but every player is absolutely not a DM.
I have a RPG which is explicitly designed to be "collaborative"... in that the _players_ are able to describe the actions of their characters and, when the GM messes up a roll, for the GM as well. Encounters, NPCs, all that stuff still belongs to the GM, who also has the absolute veto power over what their players want to do. But, the limitation on players is "reasonable"... as in "is it reasonable for their character to do X"... Of course, this RPG _is_ a Rules Lite system... with 30 pages of rules. Looking at D&D... it's a Rules Heavy system with lots of combat mechanics and rules for that... so of course the Players _can't_ have that much control. *Shrugs*
@@aralornwolf3140 Ok...? I guess I'm not sure how that relates to the subject matter of D&D. I mean, of course if you're running systems OTHER than D&D it's going to be different. D&D is a pretty crunchy system as opposed to something like Monster of the Week. Rules lite systems exist for that purpose, but like...that's not really the topic. This is talking about the categorically incorrect statement that in D&D, 'every player is a dungeon master'. That's what I guess I'm taking umbrage with. I cannot grasp how that line of logic can exist while still using something approximating a D&D ruleset.
I agree not every player is a GM - plenty have no interest in GMing. But re "Every player doesn't fashion and balance encounters, every player doesn't carefully tweak the stat blocks of the enemies to ensure they're the right power scale to provide the party a challenge without being overwhelming. Every player doesn't draft city maps, create NPC cast lists with descriptions and voices and personalities, and create narrative arcs and storylines for the players to engage with" - I don't agree that these things are necessary to run a good RPG. You can buy stuff, you can improvise, and you can make use of procedural content generators such as random tables, including during play. You make GMing sound like far more work than it needs to be.
@@simontmn I mean, sure, you can buy things. However, consider that DMs are also often creative types that like to MAKE things instead. Also, as far as enemies are concerned, I have found that in order to actually give my players any challenge, and you know, fun, I need to put some actual thought into enemy design beforehand. I've even homebrewed some guys because DnD5e enemy guys are just not great a lot of the time.
@@MG-mq3zf I generally run sandbox games where a lot of the fun and challenge comes from the non-balanced encounters. Like rolling "2d6 Trolls". :)
Chapter 8 will probably be a session building template. It shows you how to prep enough for a session and weave long term plots into it.
that sounds great tbh
@@dungeonsanddiscourse let's hope the writers have the presence of mind to actually do this somewhere.
I would love the sample adventure to have info boxes of things like 'The NPC we just introduced was made using the earlier stated rules,' and detailing the creation process. The truth is, not everyone who wants to DM has a brain that works like 'oh, I need a NPC right now, let's throw one together', some people need the creation rules, and seeing examples of them in use would be super helpful. An adventure in the book could serve this purpose.
Session 0 was called character gen in my circle
I think Esper the bard had a good criticism about how one of the first prompts being about the cosmos and not something simple like adventure/quest structure.
Funnily enough, the GM section for the game Worlds Without Number is a much preferable DnD DM's guide, though it leans quite hard on the sandbox style campaign. Nevertheless, it focuses on giving the DM a framework of tasks to create a campaign world and a campaign, which is something the DMG should focus on as well.
I don't think I've read ANY of my DnD books cover to cover. I just sort of flip through them for information relevant to what I need at that moment.
I run very open sandboxy games. One of my favorite games so far involved my players, who were respected members of an adventurers guild, opting to become sky pirates and then accidentally starting a massive war between a nation of undead ruled by a lich demigod and a nation of dragons.
You know, it hit me. DMing is like the ultimate customer service job. You got a plan for plot and built a world. but then the actual story is molded around the players and their actions. Something I think gets lost.
I fundamentally disagree with your take “the plot is what my players are doing”. As a player or the DM, my preference is the DM is laying out a plot as organic as possible and as a player, I “choose” to interact with it out not. If not, then you’re making the DM’s life harder but they should adjust with a new plot to present to me. Players just wandering around interacting with NPC, shopping etc. gets boring pretty quickly if that is all they do. As a player, I want some direction, some threads available to pull that will lead into political intrigue, or a dangerous trek through a primordial forest to find an ancient city, or to escape from a world run by a vampire lord, or a caper to break into a vault. My players don’t create that… the DM does.
Depending on the abilities of that DM and the relative abilities of the players compared to the DM, the DM having a plot can very easily negatively impact play because an inexperienced DM may not have the tools to bring a party smoothly back to the plot or may simply be out paced by the players speed runing challenges or leapfroging plot devices. From a certain perspective, it is about preparation effort and efficiency. A DM would be better served to have the players in a world than a world for their players. The DM is unburdened from the stress of players not following clues or changing sides. It also makes the DM think about the motivations and connections between NPCs making narrative beats easier to create without needing a plan ahead of time.
The GM should certainly prep content, including adventure sites and hooks/rumours.
I often plan major story beats and encounters to be flexible enough to adapt to whatever my players choose to do.
For example: Im running a sci-fi campaign set in a massive cave system under an otherwise uninhabitable planets surface. My players recently picked up an important veteran war general turned politician from an obscure village in the fringes of the caves and on the way back from picking him up they ran into a massive cave in on the main road.
I told the player that they have equipment to clear the cave in it would take a long time and leave them vulnerable, alternatively, the politician is aware of an alternative route that would bypass the road block but goes on uncharted and overgrown paths and roads
Either way the party is being ambushed by an assassin robot sniper. Even if they decided to do something unexpected, like try and backtrack to find an alternative route the encounter will still happen. It’s really only where they’re attacked and what tactics the assassin uses that is unknowingly determined by the player
This gives the player an “illusion of choice” and makes their actions and decisions feel significant without making me do a bunch of prep thats never used. It is rather improv heavy tho
This is why I prefer Shadowrun over D&D. Gm gives you a mission with all the details missing, you always get screwed over. Don't want the mission? Sure, but my character would rather eat then worry about how sketchy the Johnson is. Then you get the great rp of the in between missions
@@ericjanes591 that is definitely a way to play Shadowrun, but lots of players like the missions to be connected in some way and as the runners become more successful it makes sense for the targets to start being proactive going after the players.
ADnD 1e DMG was perfectly put together. Complete with sample adventure and a dungeon map that I reused probably a hundred times.
Even back in 2nd edition the DM guide was just magical item descriptions and treasure tables with some occasional tips to standardize encounters and stuff.
The real DM's guide was the friends we made along the way
I've been a GM for years, running everything from D&D to Classic Deadlands. My advise to new GMs is to not over prep....have an idea what you want your players to achieve and let them loose. I adlib almost everything anymore. I might have a location map or two (I've gotten away from dungeons even in D&D) and key NPC/Monster stats...but I let the players dictate their story, I'm just there to act as their guide.
Agreed, to some extend, I do a lot,of world building but also consider what events are happening and what the players goals are.
Im a relative new GM who started as a complete newcomers with a group consisting newcomers a couple of months ago.
I learned the same after a few sessions. I over prepared a lot in the beginning, which was not only often a waste of time but also lead to a lot of detrimental rail roading. As soon as let the players do their own stuff, they gave me a lot to actually build and expand upon. It can be really inspiring and a great basis for future quests/adventures.
Now I mostly just do general world building and large scale stuff and let the players dictate the short term course.
It's much more collaborative and fun than before.
Ah the nostalgia clouds me so….. it feels like most of what you say you want in the core books, 2nd Ed AD&D did. I will admit that at least half of the DMG I rarely referenced. Also by the end of it’s run 2nd Ed. did have a book for just about anything including……….the World-builder’sGuide which was page upon empty page with graph paper and empty lists for large areas such continents down to small villages with a small booklet to explain the pages and how they work together as an outline for what you may need .
As a dm I make a world. The world does things. The story is the things the players interact with. I make 4-5 plots and they are ether city related or Characters backstory related. But I only continue a story the players are invested in
Right now I'm reading XDM 2nd Edition. I feel like I'm learning something. What's a story? How to create excitement. There's a structure to it.
I guess you are a bit young, back in the golden age of DnD, we had... wait for it... LORE BOOKS.... ooooo AAAAHHHHH... The DMG was for DMing. How to addlib, how to formulate, what type of creatures you should consider based on your players, etc etc. Ohh and second edition, in the DMG, you could make custom class's. Yup. Say a paladin with full wizard spells, or a druid with lay on hands. etc etc. Custom for your players. Ahh the good ole days. Just get a pdf of the ADND, ADnD 2e DMG's. 3.0/3.5 are also good.
Good points to the DMG: the treasure tables and magic item descriptive lists. I also find the appendix that allows random generation of dungeons really useful. Beyond that...erm, it's a slab, full of scattered text. You're right, it really needs more pregenerated villages or a dungeon for you to just get on with, maybe more comprehensive encounter tables, NPC's etc. I find "Spectacular Settlements" by Nord Games far more useful.
Before they add more maps, a far higher priority should be a 1 page key for each of the maps already in there. That's the minimum needed to spur creativity IMO. I can download a million maps off the Internet, it's the map content that matters.
Honestly, I found the old DMs guide quite useful. I'm always refering back to it at the start of campaigns as it guides you through world and villain generation. The only issue I have with it is how it's structured, which is an issue I also have with Tasha's Cauldron.
Reframe plot to situation. Situation is the thing happening in the setting that will cause the setting to change, usually poorly, especially if the player characters don’t do something about it. It’s what the antagonists are doing. Most people just short cut that with the word plot because it’s easier to understand based on what people generally accept.
I think they also confuse plot or situation with having a pre-written script the players have to follow. That's true railroading.
But they must teach you to railroad. Otherwise you might realize you don't need their adventure books. /s
Seriously though, the 5ed was very much focused on story rather than a group of people getting into dangerous situations for coin.
A lot of RPGs are focused on the players 'solving' the plot. Usually they are focused on mystery and investigation though.
this is honestly quite true. If the DMG taught (and suggests) DMs how to make their own stuff or structure campaigns as open ended worlds, they would never sell another overpriced badly bound railroaded time again
Lol so i read the title of "hoard of the dragon queen and made a whole campaign out of the concept alone. They're finishing tomorrow, with a climactic battle against tiamat in the courtyard of their Cliffside castle. I own but never actually read the book, but the title gave me enough of an inspiration to create my own very sandbox style adventure.
The 5e DMG is the only major TTRPG rules book I own that doesn't already come with an adventure in it.
It has always baffled me.
One good thing about the 4e DMG is that it had a (good) home base, a decent campaign setting, and a (bad) intro adventure in it. Unfortunately 5e looked to the 3e DMG for inspiration and ignored much of the good stuff in 4e.
My only basis for comparison is the 1st Edition guide. It was the largest of the original core books and we used it a lot. I haven't looked at one of these for 35 years, but we used it a ton. It had random generators for encounters, treasure, dungeons, wilderness etc. It had all the magic items explained. It had a tabulated summary of monster statblocks, alphabatized. It had additionl information on a lot of spells, stuff that wasn't in the PHB (this seemed misplaced; I struggle to remember what they needed to include here, maybe info on underwater spell casting or something similarly random? It had alternate character generation methods - Beyond 3d6! And it opened with a Gygax essay or two on gaming philsophy. It was the last of the three core books, and included afterthoughts that perhaps would have been better suited for the other two, but we used the crap out of those random tables, magic items lists, and monster stats.
Been doing session zeros since the 80s. We just didn't call it that. We called it the night where we talked about the next game and what characters we want and stuff.
That, subtle, quick, Elf Br****ng clip when talking about the mystery chaper 8...genius!
Discourse seems to have a strange ... obsession ... with Elf Br****ng.
Almost like they should go contact someone like Justin Alexander, who has written extensively on the subject (and done well at it) for two decades, and ask him to write a DMG based on his Gamemastery 101 series.
He certainly ought to be a contributor. Like him or not (he can be quite abrasive) he is a lot smarter & more talented than any current WoTC staffer.
Created my first AD&D world continent using the random world building tables in the back of the AD&D 1E DMG and a (by the end) really worn out set of color in the numbers with crayon D10s back in 1982. Still have all of it, the DMG, the dice, and the world.
NGL, I might actually buy a fancy book with blank pages called the "Setting guide to ______" where you can write in the name of your homebrew. Yes, I know I could just *make* one, but I need that energy to put into the setting, not crafting a fancy notebook. :D
Just page after page of templates and prompts and 90% of each page blank to write on would be great. I’ve seen plenty on Etsy so the market is there.
@@eitherorlok True. Cantrips Media has one for example.
Yeah that was a better idea than wizards like last 5 offerings
I completely disagree about Discourse’s take on the plot. Yes, some games the plot is made by the players’ and changes by what they do. However plenty of games require the players to at least generally follow some kind of plot. Can there be side missions and distractions? Of course. But if the plot of the game revolves around saving a princess and the players decide to start farming that is a completely different game. That’s like starting up Skyrim and 3 hours in taking it out to play Harvest Moon. Modules especially are built upon a central plot that needs to be followed.
Now this is all stuff that should be discussed in session zero and is a great reason to have one: setting players’ expectations.
But while sometimes it’s good to let players wander and sometimes that’s even the point, it shouldn’t be that way for every single game.
There are people that 100% prefer to have a railroad campaign with a very clear direction (one of my friends loves to play that way, and another friend loves to run those games) but I don't think they should be the default style of play. Like you say, a session 0 is the key for sure.
I'll be deep diving into this topic next week :)
@@dungeonsanddiscourse Oh I absolutely agree it should not be the default, 100%.
100% agree with you. Also beginner DM's will already be overwhelmed by the rules, lore, character information, spell details without having to essentially make the game up on the fly because the players can do whatever they like. Without a plot new players will lose interest if all their decisions and choices lead them nowhere, like you said there's no reason not to have side-quests and some downtime for the characters to do exactly what they want but if some stuff isn't tied to a plot/goal then what exactly is the point of the game?
@Ralth Oin The way I am getting back into DM'ing is by running a Tasha's style campaign as weekly one-shot missions with the players completing contracts from a mercenary guild. Once I get used to being more descriptive and used to playing the NPCs, I can start my master plan... a massive campaign where the players build a crime ring and control the kingdom through blackmail and intrigue.
There's a huge difference between railroading (removing choices on how to deal with issues) and a linear game (there being a fairly clear end objective to achieve). One is generally considered bad, the other often essential unless you're playing a sandbox game - but most players don't actually know what to do with a sandbox game as they lack direction.
Crazy idea: Maybe, just MAYBE if they want there to be more Dungeon Masters, they should make this book FREE?
Not possible.
ok, never thought about that, but you´re completely right
You know it's a company right?
@@Frothmeister What better way to promote the 50th anniversary than saying "Everyone can be a Dungeon Master?" and making the pdf or text free.
@@Frothmeister "oh the poor, poor corporation"
Yes, forcing players to follow the main plot is a bad thing, but it's good if there at least _is_ a main plot for the players to engage with. I have one DM that has a main plot in mind and another that, until recently, just threw in a bunch of set pieces; rolled a lot of dice; and then sat back and watched what the players and the overpowered monsters did. The latter campaign is quite hilariously chaotic, but I've found the former campaign to be more satisfying to play (the former DM has the advantage of having a passion for creative writing).
The poster map will be a floor plan of Boatmurdered, color-coded to describe a timeline of the uhhm... events and developments of that place.
First thought, the best piece of advice I could give I don't think would ever be in a book, any book.
Write problems, not solutions.
Yes, really, that's it.
I have another thought that..... he's wrong and he's right at the same time. The thing is that DMG books can be use as a starting point, it can provide tools to the right people. The problem with that is.... well, when I ran my first game I didn't have an obvious DMG. Didn't need one and didn't use one at all.
You could quote me as saying 'where we're going, we don't need no stinking rules'. Ran a very solid campaign for the first and learned a lot. The rest of it?
Depends on your perspective, depends on your goal and depends on your desired end state. I think there's an issue around GM'ing D&D because that has very little meaning.
I think you can run a long running, narrative game. I've been doing it and I've done it in D&D. I think our host may utterly dislike how I run my game, there's a plot, there's world events, character events, there's things going on that people will notice and may be pulled into. They will come up and they will blend into the background. That's always going on though, it's always going to be going on. How much of it you see, now that's an interesting question. Some sessions more, some sessions less. Some sessions build up these elements and some sessions close up those elements.
Does that make my game not D&D? At least does if I was running D&D.
If anyone can answer that, well, please answer.
If there's a big secret to this hobby, there's two types of games out there. Those that work for you and those that don't.
"Situations" also works.
A well written "DMG" should comprehensively aid a DM in running the table and support all parts of that responsibility.
As for the question about if it is D&D or not: if that's the *basis* of the parameters used to define interactions that take place in the game world, then it is absolutely D&D.
@@orokusaki1243 If that's world building, I'd not use it. The way I do that seems to have been very well received and from some of the tables I've seen, a lot more targeted and has an ecological focus other tables do not have it on the level I prefer, find as the minimum standard.
If that's guidance on how to run a group, I'd not use that, because I go into each game with the same plan and the same attitude. Learn the group as it presents on my table every single session. Learn about each player and learn something every single session.
I talk to my players, make sure they're interested, involved in the game. They can ask me questions, so we understand why things are the way they are. I make sure it's perhaps more equitable across the screen. There's events, actions and reactions. Some of the time things just take a while to reveal themselves.
If that's world locations? Almost certainly barely using those. At best. If not just throwing it out entirely. See my point about world building.
Magic items? Barely use those, create my own targeted for each player and the spirit of their character. Otherwise general magic items? Barely to another maybe.
Sounds like a book that doesn't have much use for me.
D&D is a meaningless term, when you've been through the hobby the way I have, you either have the tools to run the game or you don't. Some games, some rules work better than others for reasons you will never work out and some of the time it's so obvious you can't miss it.
The only table that matters is the one in front of you. Frankly, the plans for this DMG seem to be getting in the way of that truth.
@@leonpeters-malone3054 Like I said, a proper "DMG" should aid (guide perhaps?) a DM in their responsibilities as the table runner and game facilitator. Not, be a complete blueprint to do this, that, and the other thing in the game world (or at the table) as prescribed and/or mandated by WotC. It may be that WotC is firstly "teaching" DMs how to run their pre-written adventures, and secondly a brief on how to make one's own WotC-approved homebrew world.
What you described in your OP is pretty much how I do it. Set up situations, scenes, events, triggers based on what the party wants to do and what they've provided in their backstory, and my own bits(hooks) to challenge their characters. The spotlight is on them, I just have to put things that make sense on the periphery. It all still exists and the world keeps spinning, but fades in or out of relevance depending on the party's interaction/proximity to the thing, and the thing's impact on the world.
If you're using D&D rules, then it is D&D. If you're using "D&D" as a catch-all term for "role playing game", then it is "D&D". Regardless of the actual ruleset being used, it is still meant to mechanically quantify/adjudicate/interpret interactions between characters and/or with the world. Roleplay is roleplay, a narrative is a narrative. GM and Player skills to play the game are very important to develop.
"If" the 2024 DMG wants to compete with countless other rules systems that already have great GM advice and tools, WotC will have to get with the program. Being "the industry leader" and then driving that industry into the ground is not responsible, nor is it good stewardship of the hobby. There's a reason why there's so many social media spots and books with GM advice and tools, the "industry leader" with the greatest market share has failed to provide such things.
@@orokusaki1243 If you can forgive me a moment, I want to use your own words.
Blueprint is exactly what I'm scared they think they need the DMG to be. It's got to be a strict and comprehensive document that says 'this is D&D'. It's a baking recipe that must be followed exactly, not a normal cooking recipe you can tweak.
The thing is I've either been running long enough, right/wrong/both/Vorlon yes enough to just realise that there's only one thing that really matters. Only two types of games and a few more lessons that I just don't believe you can say in a book.
You can say that your table is your own and you need to do what works best for that. But if you're not able to see it beyond the scope of the book, you're limited, you're set up to fail.
If you're watching CR or some organised play, play podcast, you think that's D&D, that's the game you want to run? Also, limited.
Improv is important, but if you can't improv, does all of the talk about improv help? Or does it get in the way, give the impression of being a 'wrong' game master?
I'm seeing all the areas where D&D gets defined, structured and I'm seeing weaknesses, misunderstandings, confusion. I'm seeing places which can and will catch more creative people. Places that could also equally catch people who are less creative, who predetermine solutions and perhaps might be better authors than GM's.
You will have people who expect some sort of linked multiverse, even when it doesn't belong.
It's been years since I ran fantasy, never mind D&D, so I might just be cynical about players. I might also one side of the hobby, where if it's not D&D, it's near worth not playing at all.
That list being Shadowrun 5th, FFG Star Wars, FFG Genesys, Star Trek Adventures, at least. With also running demo games of Trail of Cthulhu, Fate Core/Accelerated, at least.
Do Call of C'Thulhu or Delta Green! 💚
still haven't run Delta Green (outside of one single one-shot) :(
@@dungeonsanddiscourse Cancel WarhammerFest and spend 3 days playing Delta Green with your group. Will be glorious! 😄
I would like a chapter or a page or two of when players want to start a business. My players love to say "I am prof. in wood carving I want to make a business out of it" I also had a wizard who made magic scrolls and sold them. They have it so players can make things like jewelry, but no rules or tips on how to really help them set up to sell things.
Player's expectations change with the table. I run two tables of 4 players and they all wanted "plot" and story and said so in session zero, even expressed enthusiasm for it. I didn't take that as leave to railroad anyone, I just made a world that is reactive to the players decisions but likewise is alive and changing in its own ways that the players can choose to react to. The players can always run off and do their own thing and I make that clear, but none of them want a game like that. Mulligan's waterslide analogy is something I personally take to heart. That said, if your players want a sandbox type of game, that's what you should run. Good luck at the table.
Sad to hear that the "plot" isn't looked at with the same favor, which is fine. The DM is a part of the campaign too and the players are there to enjoy the setting and ideas the DM created. If the players were put into the DM chair, developed an idea, and really wanted to see how it would play out but they were denied because they were afraid of "railroading," then that player would never really want to dabble as a DM again.
Ah well, we can just disagree at that point and move forward.
It seems to me that player buy in to campaign premise is a good thing and should be discussed pre-game ("session zero"). But the players should be able to engage with the material in very unforeseen ways - including 'Noping Outta There" if they decide a threat is too great to deal with. During play the players should never have to be worrying "What does the GM want us to do next?"
@@simontmn And that is the collaboration within a game, yes. You don't put level 20 monsters in the path of level 1 characters.
I'll share a quick example. We had a game going and two of the players would derail the game by "shiny" syndrome. No matter what we did or how we talked to them to stay on focus (the players, not the GM), they caused chaos and we just stopped playing.
Gaming is like managing. You have to use the role authority given evety once in a while to stop grinding a story down so people can get their "shiny" syndrome out of the way.
DMs are totally afraid to say no because they want a game to run. That's how people burn out and games fail quickly, because the word no is so rarely used
In their race to ditch 4e, Wizards ignored the most functional and table-useful version of the DMG published.
The railroad element is likely from their end for pushing modules that are more often than not extremely linear
For a billion dollar multinational corporation Hasbro WotC is such a hot mess lol
if the new DMG is just a "up date for the Modern Audiences" then wotc can keep it, not getting D&D woke Edition
lol and even lmao, good to know
Is it just me or does that guy get on everyone's last nerve?
@Charles Vincent Yeah, it is the arrogant North Western USA hipster thing he has going on...
Rogue: I go to pickpocket that npc
Gm: you notice this npc is filled with rocks?
Rogue: are they magical?
Gm:no.
Rogue: are they worth anything?
Gm:no
Rogue: are they shiny?
Gmm: no
Rogue: why would this npc have pockets filled with rocks?
Gm: they are his pet rocks
What Perkins said and what the 'tuber said about the plot 7:30 is both right AND wrong. It depends on the style of game you are running. If it is a published, prewritten adventure, the plot is already written, for the most part, the events of the campaign are predetermined. What is to be determined is how the players interact and respond to those events. They are NOT creating the plot as they play. OTOH, some games are entirely open, with very little pre-determined. The DM has little to no idea where the campaign is going and the plot is an ever-growing entity in and of itself. In this campaign, the players have a much larger influence on the creation of the plot. You just have to know which style of campaign you are involved with and respond accordingly.
NO, all players are not DMs. YES, we have a shortage of DMs. Do I believe that everyone is capable of being a GM? Yes. Do I think everyone should be a GM. Absolutely NO! GMing is largely about desire and investment. All it takes is one day looking around the various chat servers, community pages, FLGS, etc. and it is glaringly obvious that we have WAAAY more people who want to play, than GM/officiate games. This is not even a controversial idea. I have to question the relevance of someone who says we don't have a GM shortage as it suggests they are either out of touch with the community or they are simply delusional.
There isn't anything wrong with the content in the DMG. The problem is the organization of the content. If they rearrange the information so that it starts with the fundamentals, then expands it would be an excellent tool for new (and experienced) GMs. That is not to say they cannot/shouldn't add more material, but its not "bad" in its current iteration.
Lore does not belong in the system books. The core system books are there to formalize the game mechanics and instruct players and GMs how the rules work that govern their game. Lore belongs in setting books and adventures.
What I see in this video analysis is that the 'tuber presents their style as the "right" one. Just because a concept like modular adventure design is your favorite and you think it is the "best" way to organize does not make it universally true and to suggest that it is "bad" is to suggest that anyone who fails to use it is "wrong." That is bad analysis.