Fr. Josiah’s Orthodox objections to Catholicism (REBUTTED)
Вставка
- Опубліковано 4 січ 2022
- In this episode Trent and fellow apologist Michael Lofton respond to Eastern Orthodox priest Fr. Josiah Trenham and his objections to Catholicism.
To support this channel: / counseloftrent
Original Video - "An Orthodox Perspective on Roman Catholicism" • An Orthodox Perspectiv...
Michael Lofton's Channel "Reason and Theology": / reasonandtheology
Perpetually persecuted Eastern Orthodox mindset, I wish Fr. Josiah Trenham spoke so passionately about Byzantine massacres prior to the Sack of Constantinople such as the horrific Massacre of the Latins in 1182.
Also the clear apathy to Pope St. John Paul II's push to recognise the fruits of Eastern Christianity so haughtily dismissed as "not that we cared all that much", reveals the sour attitude towards any future reconciliation.
Yes, they are always holding grudges and pointing the finger, while ignoring their faults.
He did talk about the Byzantine massacres but unfortunately that bit wasn't shown in this video...
Hypocrasy from catholics the empire that did that at 1182 was killed by catholics in constadinopole. His cousin called him satan and had sent him away .when he got in power he first kill his own people that went against him. He was given to catholic soldiers that kill him .
This is a priest who associates himself with Jay Dyer.
I agree. I'm a new convert to the Catholic faith, but if I had a dime for everytime I heard how a Catholic longed for the reunification between East and West, I'd be a rich man. Yet the Orthodox are so quick to spit on Rome.
As a protestant watching this, I feel like when you got to a friend's house, and your friend starts arguing with his little brother.
thats actually funny lol
Catholiscism is the little brother 🙂
@@IC_XC_NIKA How? 😄 The last time I spoke to an orthodox friend he admitted me the bishop of Rome is the Primus inter pares. That's the perfect definition for the big brother.
@@Fasolislithuan I was just kidding. 🙂
@@IC_XC_NIKA I know 😄😄
I'll never forget the anecdote that David Bentley Hart once told about running into some dude from the deep south who was a convert to Orthodoxy who said, "Those Latins will never know what the sack of Constantinople means to us"....
I bet that the Orthodox dude was Greek. I'm an EO but not a Greek and I don't find that big of a deal the fall of Constantinople (even though having a crusade against Christians speak volumes about the hypocrisy in those times).
@@sfappetrupavelandrei No the funny part of that story is that the dude was a recent American convert who probably did not know about the crusades 2 years before his conversion but yet seemed very afflicted. Btw, the 4th crusade was never aimed against Christians.
Paisios is typing…
@@F2222m 🤣🤣🤣
Bet you he wouldn't dare bring up the Massacre of the Latins though.
As a practicing Orthodox and the son of a priest, I condemn those Orthodox clerics by maintaining this disunity between the two Churches. Those clerics come with the arguments which from my perspective are just vague. They are vague because at a point if you are an Orthodox Christian, a true Christian above all names, who is serious about your faith you will see that most of the things that we blame the Catholics for doing in the past, and in the present, the Orthodox are still doing. Except for the Fillioqve, which in my opinion is supported by the Gospels, Purgatory and the infallibility of the Pope.
I will give the following two examples, which I have heard so many times from Orthodox clerics and intellectuals:
1) “The Catholics are heretics because of they believe in the infallibility of the Pope. The Pope is just a man he can’t be infallible.” Yet, most of the bishops act as gods on earth. They always thing that they are in the right, because they are monks who are more spiritually endowed then an average clergyman. They treat clerics like dirty rags, while they live in luxury; MONKS LIVING IN LUXURY-only in the Orthodox Church, folks.
2) “Look at the Catholic Church who sold indulgences, they are heretics. The Orthodox has never done that.” If you know a bit of Orthodox History, you would see that the Orthodox Church has not ride itself of this practice. I have literally heard priests saying to the parishioner, “You must buy this many candles and light them in order for your prayer to be received”, or “You must come only to this church to pray and donate in order for your prayers to be received”. If those doesn’t sound like an indulgence I don’t what is.
Being the son of a priest, I must say that I have been exposed to a side of a church that many don’t know and those who know it are either in silence or silenced. There is one important goal, if you would like to take from an Orthodox and Catholic perspective- UNITY! This type of discourse from both sides is to be disregarded and confronted with the factual truth. The only major disagreement between our churches is the Fillioqve clause.
My Catholic and Orthodox brothers, let us pray towards “One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church” once again, as it was in the beginning.
Thanks for your tone, my brother. I am more and more convinced that humility is the greatest virtue, pride is the root of all sins. Both Catholics and Orthodoxs should really seek one and avoid the other. Your example is inspiring.
About the doctrinal divergences, for me the three you chose (Filioque, purgatory and the ecclesial infallibility through papal teaching authority) are biblical and traditional both in the East and in the West, all vastly demonstrable in Patristics and in documents of the Church, but they all were articulated in languages that the East found strange and even repugnant. It is understandable in most cases. So I guess union is always workable. The adding of the Filioque clause in the Creed is done in the West for a very long time (the Councils of Toledo in the 6th century, as far as I can remember) due the necessities of the language and the contemporary contextual heresies. There were times that they tried to force the East due ignorance or arrogance in putting the clause but it doesn’t happen now, and the Catholic Church even determines the prohibition of Eastern Catholic churches to adopt it in their non-Latin Creeds. That is a problem with the Latin language and the word “procedere/ procedit”.
Pope Francis is definitely a bad pope and a weak theologian, but he is adamant in kindly conversing with the Eastern Orthodox hierarchy. Maybe it takes a fragile leader in the Catholic side for the Orthodox ones recognize why they are important for us. If there is a particular time to notice the union is simply needed, in the name of Christ Jesus, that time has come, I guess.
God bless you and yours!
@@masterchief8179 nicely put. 👏🏻
Orthodox believe the energies of God as Deity and Uncreated Catholics that when operated are some created forms. So what one see as DEITY the other as something created...
You are a better Christian than I am. May our lord bless you 🙏
@@F2222m i am the most sinner of all but i am not a heretic because if i repent i can be saved , beeing a heretic not... That said an orthodox saint when was accused for sin he had not even done...
As an Orthodox Christian myself, thanks for this video. I find it valuable to check out apologetics from other churches from time to time in order to clear out frivolous polemics that tend to get thrown around. There are real differences between the various churches which go deeper than simple ecclesial politics, but we don't need to pretend the differences are more serious than they really are.
Yeah I watched the original video about a year ago trying to learn the objections the EO had. I thought he made some interesting points but others seemed very superficial
@@vincentterraneo263 It depends on how much time you want to devote to the topic, but I would rather recommend Fr. John Strickland's history of the church beginning with The Age of Paradise. You could also check out his podcast Paradise and Utopia instead, which is basically an audiobook version.
In my opinion, it provides an orthodox reading of the historical issues without all the moralizing and shallow polemics of youtube.
@@jacob5283 thanks, I appreciate it
I just hope we can mend the schism one day
(sarcasm/iron): I really like the way the Orthodox east never needed any help from the Catholic west to fight off the Muslim hordes, and that maintaining a western presence there would (mysteriously) not require the presence of Catholic bishops and priests there to tend the western sheep. ...Because, obviously, the Muslim hordes would never, ever threaten anyone again, right? 😀 So, why have Catholic priests and bishops (and Catholics themselves) present there, right? Catholics should have just moved back to where they came from, right? After all, the Muslim hordes would never attack again, right?
Wrong.
When the Catholic armies defeated the Muslim hordes at Lapanto, did they just up and leave? No.
The left contingent forces to secure the territories from the Muslims returning. That required Catholic priests (and probably Bishops) to maintain a presence for ministering to their flocks.
One thing you guys could've picked him up on was that Church didn't say that Protestants or Orthodox are "really Catholic" just that they are Christians, in the sense that they have valid baptisms in the sense of a trinitarian Baptism. This is why people like Mormons have to be baptized when they join the church but Anglicans don't.
@Harry Waddington no they are not
The Orthodox aren't just Christians they have VALID apostolic authority and all seven sacraments and in dire cases of emergency Catholics and Orthodox can share sacraments.
Mormons use the Trinitarian formula of Baptism. Belief and intention is not relevant since an atheist can validly Baptize a person.
@Brian Farley I've been to a Mormon baptism. They Baptize "In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" in accordance with the formula found in the Gospel. Their intention and belief is irrelevant, otherwise an atheist would not be able to validly Baptize.
@Brian Farley My point is that if you want to rely on the authoritative declaration of the Roman Catholic Church that's fine. But the logic is not internally consistent. The person giving the Baptism is not relevant and the state of faith of the person recieving is not relevant according to St Thomas Aquinas. He explains that if the Sacrament of Baptism is recieved in bad faith it is salutory upon a change of heart.
Just a personal note: like Mr Lofton, I had left the Church for 3 months. For 3 months I went without the sacraments, because I was attending Liturgy at a ROCOR mission. Thanks be to God, I still had a lot of good catholic friends who kept me from leaving the Church.
This video can catch a Catholic off guard so I’m glad you all put out this rebuttal. Thank you
Let us celebrate God and thank Him (and each other) for any humility we show one another.
The lack of authority made me finally decide to become Catholic. I didn’t want to but there is no escaping the truth. Everything in life is about hierarchy and without it there is no order.
@Super-Shooter thank you sir Super shooter. Keep shooting straight to heaven
Unless your hierarch of the Christ’s church isn’t a Christian lol
@@MrEvoXI You mean the Pope isn't baptized?
@OutsiderSoul A liturgy isn't the same as the faith.
@@brendansheehan6180 it’s not that simple, listen to the words of our Lord,
“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”
Mark 16:16
Dis. tink. shuns... Distinctions... 😁Great show. Holy, Theotokos, Mary Mother of God pray for Michael and Trent. Jesus Christ bless their apologetic work. Amen
Amen
Why not ask all the saints to pray? How does Mary know what to pray for if you don’t tell her
@@Wgaither1 two different questions. How do you know I didn't privately? Mary is Queen of all Saints. The same way the saints in Revelation know what to cry out to God for. I will ask her to pray for you too.
@@halleylujah247 😀😎👍
I was literally thinking “I hope Trent makes a rebuttal to more Orthodox claims against Catholicism” and I opened UA-cam and this video was there 😂. God works in mysterious ways haha
Same!!
I was thinking the same thing! I've always found Orthodox churches very tempting, unlike Protestant churches. So, this is very helpful for me!
Well i ask catholic to tell me how they are in full union in the Eucharist with the Byzantine Catholic? The Byzantine Catholic have in there Eucharist Gregory Palamas as a saint. Saint Gregory Palamas calls the Latin πειθήνια oργανα του σατανά meaning that they are acting and obeying satan blindly! Never got a solid answer from catholics on that
@@user-pj7sq7ce1f where does it say that?
@@artifexdei3671 what Where it says that? Dont catholic are in full union with the Eucharist of Byzantine Catholic???
I absolutely love this tag team! Michael helps fill out an Orthodox perspective for Trent, and Trent keeps Michael from making this into a 40-hour video!
The actual conversion rate between the original video time and Lofton’s response is 10 minutes for every 1 minute in the original, this is empirical fact
😂
😂
🤣🤣🤣🤣
Except Michael doesn’t know the Orthodox perspective as he’s proved time and time again.
When Fr. Josiah mentioned excommunicated crusaders performing horrible acts against fellow Christians in Constantinople, and said that what Eastern Orthodoxy-to-be then uttered “I don’t think we’re one” (4:51), I remembered reading witness accounts of events from not so remote history of my country, Poland, specifically during WWII in Volhynia/Volyn and Eastern Galicia: some Orthodox priests would bless tools of massacre during masses - scythes, axes, pitchforks, knives that were later used to torture and murder Polish Catholics, including pregnant women. Estimates vary, as always is the case with history, but up to 140,000 people where bestially murdered, because they were Catholics and Poles. Accounts of those events are almost impossible to read. As far as I know neither those Orthodox priests nor the perpetrators blessed by the priests were ever excommunicated. Fr. Josiah, are you one with them? Or are you not familiar with that part of Orthodox church history? And another questions to Fr Josiah: aren’t Old Believers/Ritualists (enclaves of them still function in the modern-day Poland, near where I live), who follow the rites from before the reforms of Patriarch Nikon of Moscow, ‘truer’ Orthodox?
Very interesting you insight you here, very much appreciated. I wouldn't mind researching this, can you direct me to where I would find a good account of this please? Thanks
The grass is not greener on the Orthodox side. They have dirts too. It's just they are such small minorities that the dirt is hard to see. Where's Catholic, with the biggest faithful (2+ billions) every move is news.
I wouldn't characterize the evil that occurred in Galicia and Volhynia as primarily being motivated by religious reasons though but rather nationalistic. Sure, each side had their own religions (Eastern Christian Ukrainians vs Roman Catholic Poles) but this mostly came out of a Ukrainian vs Polish ethnic conflict, which the religions bled into. Plus, if anything it was also very much an Eastern Catholic vs Roman Catholic problem as much as it was an Eastern Orthodox vs Roman Catholic issue in my opinion, which culminated out of the Second Polish Republic treating Ukrainians as second-class citizens and subjugating both Ukrainian Orthodox and Ukrainian Catholics. It was a horrific time that should not be forgotten and fortunately it is behind us, but I don't think it is fair to use this point as a contra-EO point.
@@chervon5773 We could argue a lot about the second-class citizens claim, but this is not the venue for it. I believe an educated EO priest should know history better instead of playing a victim card.
It is always shameful when Christian clergy become partisan, and we witness this fact all over history, so I am not one to deny these claims. However, with my deepest respect to your countrymen's plight, hardly any event in history came close to the atrocity of the sack of Constantinople which had in fact weakened all of Eastern Christendom to the point of near annihilation. Constantinople had always been the gateway to all of Europe from Eastern invasions. Had it not been for this city, Europe would have a different identity today. Now, we find so few Christians having remained in the East, for so many genocides have frequently followed against Eastern Christians because they have lost all footing in the East. Remembering the millions of Armenians who have been slaughtered by genocide from the Turks, or even the Catholic and Orthodox Lebanese who got starved to death by Ottoman occupation. These are mere samples of the repercussions caused by the sack of Constantinople.
Trent is above -> Trads, Post-Trads, Lib-Cath discourse. He just wants us all to learn and grow in our faith. God bless you Trent!
Amen, so true!
@@tony1685 Who gave you the Bible and permission to interpret it?
@@tony1685 sadly, the 'faith' Mr Tony wants you to grow in, isn't Christianity.
Bible clearly exposes that Tony isn't a man of integrity.
Trent and Jimmy Akin> Everbody else.
@@tony1685 This is quite a claim, could you elaborate?
Can't believe they actually made this. Very excited to watch!
Love you two gents. I really appreciate your taking time to defend the faith at every turn.
I've been away from the church for 20 yrs. I've recently decided to make my way back and found myself in a Russian Orthodox Church in my community. I've always been interested in the Orthodox Church because I love the liturgy. Novus Ordo is spiritually dormant. Upon entering the Orthodox Church I found the priest, Father Mark to be very humble and I really like him. But there is a lot of Catholic bashing among the congregants. I find that unattractive and it can make a Catholic feel unwelcome in the church. I am also aware that if I want to be a part of the Orthodox Church I have to pretty much start over as a catechumen and renounce certain Catholic things I don't want to renounce. Also, I can't receive communion in the Orthodox Church, so I think to myself, what's the purpose of attending the church. I have recently discovered a Catholic Church here where I live that offers a Latin Mass. It's what I've been hoping for
Hello there. You should look into the Byzantine Catholic Church.
Yes you can go to Divine Liturgy in an Eastern Catholic Church!
@Brian Farley you are correct.
@@ExploringTartaria I live in Columbia South Carolina. The closest Byzantine church is two hours away is Charlotte North Carolina
Don't feed the troll
Only Eastern texts:
*John Cassian, Monk (c. 430)*
_“That great man, the disciple of disciples, that master among masters, _*_who wielding the government of the Roman Church possessed the principle authority in faith and in priesthood. Tell us, therefore, we beg of you, Peter, prince of Apostles, tell us how the Churches must believe in God_*_ ”_ (Cassian, Contra Nestorium, III, 12, CSEL, vol. 17, p. 276)
___________________
*St. Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem (c. 638)* (talking about Peter in the See of Rome and Mark in the See of Alexandria)
_“Teaching us all orthodoxy and destroying all heresy and driving it away from the God-protected halls of our holy Catholic Church. And together with these inspired syllables and characters, _*_I accept all his (the pope's) letters and teachings as proceeding from the mouth of Peter the Coryphaeus, and I kiss them and salute them and embrace them with all my soul_*_ ... I recognize the latter as definitions of Peter and the former as those of Mark, and besides, all the heaven-taught teachings of all the chosen mystagogues of our Catholic Church”_ (Sophronius, Mansi, xi. 461)
_“ _*_Transverse quickly all the world from one end to the other until you come to the Apostolic See (Rome), where are the foundations of the orthodox doctrine_*_ . Make clearly known to the most holy personages of that throne the questions agitated among us. Cease not to pray and to beg them until their apostolic and Divine wisdom shall have pronounced the victorious judgement and destroyed from the foundation ...the new heresy”_ . (Sophronius, [quoted by Bishop Stephen of Dora to Pope Martin I at the Lateran Council], Mansi, 893)
___________________
*Stephen, Bishop of Dora in Palestine (645)*
_”And for this cause, sometimes we ask for water to our head and to our eyes a fountain of tears, sometimes the wings of a dove, _*_according to holy David, that we might fly away and announce these things to the Chair (the Chair of Peter at Rome) which rules and presides over all, I mean to yours, the head and highest, for the healing of the whole wound. For this it has been accustomed to do from old and from the beginning with power by its canonical or apostolic authority, because the truly great Peter, head of the Apostles, was clearly thought worthy not only to be trusted with the keys of heaven, alone apart from the rest, to open it worthily to believers, or to close it justly to those who disbelieve the Gospel of grace, but because he was also commissioned to feed the sheep of the whole Catholic Church_*_ ; for 'Peter,' saith He, 'lovest thou Me? Feed My sheep.' And again, because he had in a manner peculiar and special, a faith in the Lord stronger than all and unchangeable, to be converted and to confirm his fellows and spiritual brethren when tossed about, as having been adorned by God Himself incarnate for us with power and sacerdotal authority .....And Sophronius of blessed memory, who was Patriarch of the holy city of Christ our God, and under whom I was bishop, conferring not with flesh and blood, but caring only for the things of Christ with respect to your Holiness, hastened to send my nothingness without delay about this matter alone to this Apostolic see, where are the foundations of holy doctrine”_ .
___________________
*Macedonius, Patriarch of Constantinople* (466-516)
_“Macedonius declared, when desired by the Emperor Anastasius to condemn the Council of Chalcedon, that _*_such a step without an Ecumenical Synod presided over by the Pope of Rome is impossible”_* (Macedonius, Patr. Graec. 108: 360a (Theophan. Chronogr. pp. 234-346 seq.)
___________________
*John VI, Patriarch of Constantinople (715)*
_“The Pope of Rome, _*_the head of the Christian priesthood_*_ , whom in Peter, the Lord commanded to confirm his brethren”_ . (John VI, Epist. ad Constantin. Pap. ad. Combefis, Auctuar. Bibl. P.P. Graec.tom. ii. p. 211, seq.)
___________________
*St. Nicephorus, Patriarch of Constantinople (758-828)*
_“Without whom _*_(the Romans presiding in the seventh Council) a doctrine brought forward in the Church could not, even though confirmed by canonical decrees and by ecclesiastical usage, ever obtain full approval_*_ or currency. For it is they (the Popes of Rome) who have had assigned to them the rule in sacred things, and who have received into their hands the dignity of _*_headship among the Apostles”_* (Nicephorus, Niceph. Cpl. pro. s. imag. c 25 [Mai N. Bibl. pp. ii. 30]).
___________________
*St. Athanasius (362)*
_“Rome is called the _*_Apostolic throne”_* . (Athanasius, Hist. Arian, ad Monach. n. 35)
_The Chief, Peter_ (Athan, In Ps. xv. 8, tom. iii. p. 106, Migne)
___________________
*St. Cyril of Alexandria (c. 424)*
_”They (the Apostles) strove to _*_learn through one, that preeminent one, Peter”_* . (Cyril, Ib. 1. ix. p. 736).
___________________
*Eulogius of Alexandria (581)*
(Born in Syria, he became the abbot of the Mother of God monastery at Antioch. In 579, he was made Patriarch of Alexandria; and became an associate of St. Gregory the Great while visiting Constantinople. Much of their subsequent correspondence is still extant.
_“Neither to John, _*_nor to any other of the disciples, did our Savior say, 'I will give to thee the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven,' but only to Peter”_* . (Eulogius, Lib. ii. Cont. Novatian. ap. Photium, Biblioth, cod. 280)
___________________
*Theodoret, Bishop of Cyrus in Syria (450)*
A native of Antioch, Theodoret ruled under the Antiochean Patriarch
_“I therefore beseech your holiness to persuade _*_the most holy and blessed bishop (Pope Leo the Great) to use his Apostolic power, and to order me to hasten to your Council. For that most holy throne (Rome) has the sovereignty over the churches throughout the universe on many grounds”_* . (Theodoret, Tom. iv. Epist. cxvi. Renato, p. 1197).
_”If Paul, the herald of the truth, the trumpet of the Holy Spirit, hastened to the great Peter, to convey from him the solution to those in Antioch, who were at issue about living under the law, _*_how much more do we, poor and humble, run to the Apostolic Throne (Rome) to receive from you (Pope Leo the Great) healing for wounds of the Churches_*_ . For it pertains to you to have primacy in all things; for your throne is adorned with many prerogatives”_ . (Theodoret Ibid, Epistle Leoni)
___________________
*St. Epiphanius, Archbishop of Salamis (385)*
_“Holy men are therefore called the temple of God, because the Holy Spirit dwells in them; as that Chief of the Apostles testifies, he that was found to be blessed by the Lord, because the Father had revealed unto him. To him then did the Father reveal His true Son; _*_and the same (Peter) furthermore reveals the Holy Spirit. This was befitting in the First of the Apostles, that firm Rock upon which the Church of God is built, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. The gates of hell are heretics and heresiarchs. For in every way was the faith confirmed in him who received the keys of heaven_*_ ; who looses on earth and binds in heaven. For in him are found all subtle questions of faith. He was aided by the Father so as to be (or lay) the Foundation of the security (firmness) of the faith. He (Peter) heard from the same God, 'feed my lambs'; to him He entrusted the flock; he leads the way admirably in the power of his own Master”_ . (Epiphanius, T. ii. in Anchor).
___________________
*Byzantine Emperor Justinian (527-565)*
(the creator of the not-theological concept of “Pentarchy”):
_“Yielding honor to the Apostolic See and to Your Holiness, and honoring your Holiness, _*_as one ought to honor a father, we have hastened to subject all the priests of the whole EASTERN district, and to UNITE them to the See of Your Holiness, for WE DO NOT ALLOW of any point, however manifest and indisputable it be, which relates to the state of the Churches, not being brought to the cognizance of your Holiness, since YOU ARE THE HEAD of all the holy Churches_*_ ”_ . (Justinian Epist. ad. Pap. Joan. ii. Cod. Justin. lib. I. tit. 1).
________________________
*Byzantine Emperor Justin I (518-527)*
_“Let your Apostleship show that you have _*_worthily succeeded to the Apostle Peter, since the Lord will work through you, as Surpreme Pastor_*_ , the salvation of all”_ . (Coll. Avell. Ep. 196, July 9th, 520, Emperor Justin to Pope Hormisdas).
________________________
Not quoting any of the Latin massive patrology nor the actas and letters of and to the Councils by Popes and Roman legates.
@Skelley-Priest God bless you!
Thank you. Gotta send this to my Dyerite son.
I actually met an orthodox dude who said all these quotes and writings could be fabrications by catholics since they possess all the original documents 🤷♀️
Basically they don't want to be proven wrong....even with hard evidence😓
Truly ,only God can transform the heart.
@@Pratsg86 It is even more impressive when you see that’s exactly what Jehova’s Witnesses say about the Bible: they say the Catholic Church falsified it to “create” the Trinity. Those EO converted by Internet are acting more and more like a cult. That’s sad.
I always appreciate you quotes, thank you for your service 😎
Fr Josiah is a former Protestant. That partially explains his bias. His polemics are pure Protestant half truths.
This entire show discussion NEEDS to be made into a book (that is coherently organized, and readable).
Agreed
Micheal Lofton made one, called answering othrodoxy
Why does Fr. Josiah talk like that? He's from Southern California yet speaks like he's trying to give off an impression that he's not a native English speaker.
Dude yes!!! I have wondered the exact same thing!!
I wonder if he grew up with other immigrants in Southern California? Consider Mexican Americans, Filipino Americans who were born in USA. Their accents are not the "typical" American accent either.
@@mancipiachristi9032 That’s because they grow up with immigrant parents in a much more insular immigrant community. Trenham is an Anglo-Saxon name. To me it comes off as “just like Orthodoxy is exotic for being from the east, the way I talk is exotic and not native”. It just sounds put on.
@@mancipiachristi9032nah 😂that ain’t it! Haha my parents are from Italy and I was raised speaking Italian and English and the American accent always came overpowers first generation kids. So that’s just nonsense
@@Robbie-ut6mw but for some people, although they have American accent it is slightly different from main stream America. Even in New York alone you have a melting pot of cultures and sub cultures with accents, although predominantly American, their accents may vary.
I'm from Australia and to me his accent comes across as American with a hint of something else.
But other people in comments already stated he doesn't come from immigrant family but Caucasian family.
In his defense, he does have a cool accent.
What a great format! We have a distinguished guest to witness on the rebuttal.
thanks for rebutting this video, i saw it like 2 years ago and it greatly troubled me.
I’m pausing this around the 22 min mark to offer a comment about the drop of the title “Patriarch of the West.” We see a foreshadowing of this in Ratzinger’s work from I believe the 1960’s, in which he states that the term “Patriarch of the Latin Church” is more accurate, precisely for the reasons they mentioned in this video: there are Latin Dioceses in the geographical East.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing!
Yes. I've been waiting for this.
The legendary duo have finally united to protect the faith! 💯
*defend*, I'd say would be a better word, but yes.
I think it’s interesting that I see all of these homilies from Greek Orthodox Priests trashing the Catholic Church. It only makes me think that they either hate the Catholic Church or are very insecure and see Catholics as a threat. I don’t understand. I’ve never heard one Catholic priest give a homily on anything outside of Catholic teaching.
@Super Mario ya I’ve definitely come to see that. Most of my life all I knew about orthodoxy was that it was pretty similar to Catholicism and that they believed most of the same things as us and had sacraments as well
@Ruus Hardy So in scripture the way of the world vs the way of God is talked about over and over again. So it would make sense that so many people including other religions wouldn’t like the true Church of Christ. Either the Catholic Church is evil and everyone else is right (which we know isn’t true) or it’s the one true Church!
The Greek Eastern Orthodox people are still hurt by the role played by the Catholics in the fall of Constantinople and the Byzantine Empire.
@Ruus Hardy I'm not Greek. So you are talking with the wrong guy. I just explained why Greek EO people may have an animosity towards Catholics.
@Ruus Hardy yet the muslims are divided with in themselves. And the "prophet" mooooohamad also said if you eat 7 dates you are immune to poison and magic....
"Prophet" mooohamad also said if a fly lands in your drink, you must fully dunk it, cause in one wing it carries disease and the other the cure...😂😂
So be careful what you take from mooohamad...😂
No one ever mentions the fact that before the sack of Constantinople in 1284 Constantinople had massacred Catholics living in the city in 1182. EO are very quick to point fingers at everyone but themselves.
How come no one ever mentions the "Catholic" raid against Constantinople in 1162? Or the "Catholic" campaign against Byzantium in 1171? While it was primarily inter-Latin conflict over trading privileges, it was on Byzantine territory and against Byzantine sovereignty and caused real damages nonetheless to life and property. The reason is that these were not primarily religiously motivated. Like the Massacre of the Latins in 1182, while certainly a terrible atrocity and to be entirely condemned, it was primarily an economic and politically motivated event by an enflamed mob with the resentment of the extensive trade privileges to the Latins and flamed and unrestrained by an usurping and murdering claimant to the throne, who eventually unleashed a campaign of murder and terror on his own subjects as well, not a campaign called in Christ's name. To be clear, this is not condoning it and the population there should have reflected on that in 1204 as perhaps just recompense for their actions. Yet, what makes the Fourth Crusade different and so appalling is that it was supposed to be a campaign sworn in the name of Christ and instead so badly betrayed it's supposed mission by attacking Christians (even Catholics at Zara then if you wish to look at the EO as schismatics and not "Christian").These "Crusaders" purported to be sworn and dedicated to God's service, organized and marshalled themselves to oath to liberate the Holy Land (via Egypt), yet they ended up sacking the bulwark of Eastern Christendom and fatally weakening them enough for Islam to finish the job a couple of hundred years later, all for such "earthly" motivations. They desecrated the Hagia Sophia and even put prostitutes on the Patriarch's throne, very Christlike actions indeed. If you wish to look even farther back then these conflicts, then how about the Catholic abuses with immediately expelling Orthodox Patriarchs from Antioch and Jerusalem after the First Crusade even with predominately EO local populations? So since we are on the topic of "pointing fingers", let's not pretend Catholicism does not have the potential for extensive aggressiveness to it.
@@G-lighted If these crusaders went so off the rails, why you treat it as religiously motivated and not merely a bunch of mercenaries trying to boost their economical gains? Also, makes more sense to treat it as politically motivated by the power struggle in Constantinople.
@@ghostapostle7225 Because it was indeed supposed to be in fact religiously motivated, ergo why it's known as the Fourth Crusade. It is their betrayal of their supposed noble cause that is especially odious, as was their fervour in their desecration of Orthodox holy places of worship and wanton destruction, let alone their attempt to install a forced and alien administration, being the Latin Empire of Constantinople and a forced and alien rite, the Latin Patriarchate. The reasons and events that led to their diversion from their intended "holy crusade" to the sacking of Constantinople is contested and the subject of many books and articles, but suffice to say that the fact remains that it was a "Crusade" that utterly failed in it's stated objective, betrayed it's sworn purpose, and committed atrocities in the name of the Lord, it's this hypocrisy that so offends.
@@G-lighted Doesn't really answer my point. As you said, it was "supposed to be religiously motivated", but lost its original purpose almost immediately with the sack of Zara. When the sack of Constantinople happened, they were already excommunicated and acting outside Pope's authority. Their course of action then was manly motivated by promises of huge payments than anything else. And again, the emperor himself that allowed the "crusaders" to occupy the city to regain his crown, if wasn't for this politcally motivated move, the sack woudn't have happened or it would be at least more unlikely to happen. It's easier to make your point about what happened in Zara then Constantinople to be honest.
Not denying that in any case, they were catholics and even if excommunicated it's something that ashames us and rightfully we apologized for it, even though I don't recall a Patriarch of Constantinople apologizing for anything done against the latins.
@@ghostapostle7225 The fact that it lost "it's original purpose almost immediately" will never negate the fact that it was a duly-called "Crusade", literally speaking the "way of the Cross". There is no way around that hypocrisy, and if we were to shift tacks and focus on secular and economical-political conflicts of the period it would be a different conversation on motivations and causes that would date long before the event in question. In fact, one could even go deeper into the ultimate betrayal by Venice as de jure it may technically have been part of the Byzantine polity, although of course de facto it was not, but that is irrelevant from the perspective of RC and EO relations. The Pope, while strictly speaking did not encourage or even desire the sack of Constantinople (or Zara), he certainly called the expedition and seemingly had no ability to really control and influence it once it went against his own stated purpose, and immediately, and more damning, cynically looked to take advantage of it after the fact. The Angelus struggles for the throne were indeed actually pathetic on the Byzantine side, but no emperor wanted the "Crusaders" to occupy the city, far from.
The motivations for the sack fall into main camps, such as, the "accidental sequence of events", the "wily Venetians, gullible Franks", "planned well before the expedition between the Byzantine princeling/Conrad of Monteferrat" (relationships via marriage) for example, but ultimately it never would have happened in any scenario if there was no Crusade to initially mislead and muster an army for the wrong purpose at the wrong place, all in the name of Christ. In regards to the Patriarch apologizing, if you are referring to 1182, I don't recall the Patriarch calling for, promoting, or providing the spiritual direction for it, an apology for this appalling event should have come from Andronikos or his successors. l
Sounds like Fr. Josiah still has a lot of influence from his protestant days.
Just like Filioque argument from these two, your comment is not very convincing :)
I pray for the complete unification of the church no matter how long it takes and no matter how hard people must work.
The church the body of Christ and the holy family family, people will disagree and have differences.
I'm sorry to disappoint you but this will never happen. Not for traditionalists. Now an union between a modern, woke Orthdox Church and a modern woke Catholic Church can happen.
@@sfappetrupavelandrei I beg to disagree. At least I wouldn't put a pin on it yet.
If the Lord wills it, it will happen. Only God knows how or when it will. But no one can definitively say it will not.
The most important point about Fatima wasn't mentioned here: Russia would become communist that very year. Which means mandatory atheism and violent persecution of Christians. "The errors of Russia" and the conversion of Russia should be seen in this light: a conversion away from atheist communism back to Christ. The question of whether its Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox is not really that relevant at all.
Well, Sister Lucia herself clarified that Russia would eventually become Eastern Catholic.
You're absolutely right that the conversion of Russia must first and foremost be away from atheist communism and back to Christ, but that doesn't mean the question of whether it's Catholic (doesn't have to be the Roman Rite) or Eastern Orthodox isn't relevant. While it's true that if someone's drowning anything that floats will help, the seaworthiness of the vessel that rescues them most certainly matters.
I'm Catholic. The Orthodox have legitimate beefs. But, the Orthodox are not in communion with the successor of Peter, and their theologians know that's a big problem.
It is, we hate that there’s a heretic claiming to be Peters successor! :(
The successor of Peter? You mean the guy putting the Pachamama in St. Peter's and the same "successor of Peter" who went to pray in a Turkish mosque? The "successor of Peter" who pushes sodomy and wants to give communion to adulterers? Oh yeah, its a huge problem that the Orthodox aren't in communion with that clown.
This is an amazing video. Wow. Can't wait to the end!
You gotta love how the orthodox priest leaves out the Latin Crusaders were invited by the recently deposed Orthodox emperor to aid him in reclaiming his throne in exchange for Byzantine support for the 4th crusade. And that the sacking happened only after the aid promised was refused to the Crusaders and the Emperor was dethroned once again by his own court... also how the Orthodox Byzantine kept making deals with the Muslims to undermine the Catholic crusaders... so let’s not act like only one side did things to screw the other over and foster bad blood.
Oh and he did promise Papal unification for that throne. These are common card the emperors tried to use in times of crisis, like Contantine xi and Alexios Komnenos. These are extremely unpopular for Roman citizen, who are staunchly Orthodox. And the reason why many defect to Ottoman Empire during its rise. The Ottoman kept the Orthodox church and gave them legal jurisdiction which Rome couldn't touch.
Now the reason why this emperor of Angelos dynasty rise is another story. But in summary they're incredibly disastrous for Constantinople's authority. And the events in between just cemented the schism permanently, also the pope openly denounce Greek Orthodox later.
Also its not the Romans were making alliance with Muslims, but rather they never really viewed Muslims as religious enemy. That is just how it was for Orthodox Christians, that crusaders couldn't understand. And they were rather traumatized by the Normans, who invaded Balkans repeatedly and stealing "Antioch" under oath. So crusader are threat to them.
@@hachibidelta4237 but in the case of “stealing” Antioch under oath was also under the Byzantine assurance they would march with the crusaders all the way to Jerusalem... only to withdraw the bulk of their army before even reaching Antioch and leaving the full weight of the campaign(the fighting, dying, and taking of territory) on the shoulders of the crusaders. And once Antioch was taken and the Emperor wanted “his city” the crusaders weren’t exactly in the mood to give up a city they had fought and died for to someone they felt had done nothing to earn it.
@@BigBroTejano in the end it was miscommunication, Alexios did want to go to Antioch but met Stephen of Blois. So he went to prioritize his Anatolian holding. Then they heard the news that Antioch was taken by Bohemond, who had invaded Balkan and clearly aim for the purple throne.
Besides without later proper Roman support and John ii's invasion to Syria, Antioch would've fallen back waaay earlier. Im not sure why the Romans believed themself as proctatorate of crusader state. But apparently Antioch was kind of important base to encircle Anatolia. If John ii lived longer it might've been achieved.
He brings it up and calls it a tragedy if I remember Trent left it out on purpose
The Fatima apparition is problematic for them on many levels. That Josiah finds it interesting and gleefully so (that the conversion implies Orthodoxy), is undermined by the fact that the Virgin did NOT ask for the consecration of Russia from ANY of the patriarchs, but of the "Western Patriarch" and bishops in communion with him. God is not going to bless their schism but will certainly provide his sacraments to his people. In my opinion, that is truly what bothers them about the apparition and hence they reject it out of PRIDE; you know, the one thing God truly hates. The Belovezha accords were signed December 8th, a Latin feast, not Orthodox, and the Russian flag replaced the Soviet flag and formal desolution was on Latin Christmas, not Orthodox. Truth hurts.
Thank you for sharing these bits of History in conjunction with details about Fatima. You made me smile.
@@matthewvelazquez2013 Anytime, dude 😎
You nailed it.
the downfall will always be the hyper focus on mary and apparitions. Marian devotion has become over the top, and 100% idolatry to mary exist. I have seen it everywhere, and spoken to those who nadmit it. I also believe most marian apparitions if not all are all hoax including fatima. Im not alone but we keep out mouth shut
fire
As a born &bread Eastern Orthodox, Trent nails it at 1:29:13, it's a double standard from the Orthodox to be so proud of themselves as to criticize everyone for not doing things the Byzantine way, and the to deceive by saying "this is the only way it was ever done", when in fact it was not, and even if it was, it's not a binding part of our faith.
When Fr. Trenham descends into meaningless minutia and goes on about ridiculing his congregation for sitting, rather than standing...
it's (the argument, not the man) is quite frankly stupid, and I don't use that word lightly. No understanding whatsoever that some cultural forms can be at least somewhat contingent...
that said, much love for Orthodoxy, truly.
I was going through Counsel of Trent withdrawals. This should be a good one!
You too!!! 😂
Same
Same here!
Same! Nice to start the New Year off with a Trent Horn bang 🎉
This was super helpful, thank you! I spend a lot of time around Orthodox monastics and priests and I don't understand why they all sound like Fr. Josiah when it comes to their views on Catholicism. It's as if they're all just regurgitating what they've been taught, even though the arguments are not really sound when you look closer. It's mystifying. On another note, all the Orthodox clergy I talk to say that if I become Orthodox, I will no longer be permitted to attend Catholic masses. That's kind of a deal breaker to me, since I have so many professional and personal ties to Catholic community. So at least for now, I plan to join the Catholic church when I finish RCIA this spring. But then I will keep hanging out at Orthodox monasteries, because they're my fave. But yea, it's frustrating feeling split between two worlds! I know Michael Lofton can relate, and many of you probably can too.
Attend a byzantine catholic church. Best of Both Worlds
Great show! Thank you!
Two years later...during a time of tremendous tumult in the Church...thank you gentlemen...I needed that...
Good stuff! ❤️❤️❤️
Thank you! ✝️😊
1:18:14
I appreciate how Trent says "as we in the east would call her Theotokos" as both speakers here attend Eastern Catholic Churches.
Absolutely love Michael and you Trent God bless you both for the great work you’re doing for the bride of Christ 🙏🏻🙏🏻
Thank you so much for doing this. I’ve been benefiting a lot from Father Josiah’s content, most of which doesn’t touch on Catholicism. I recently listened to some of his content that does, however, and have to admit I was shaken and questioning the catholic position.
Regardless, I now have a profound respect for the east and its traditions and eagerly long to see a day when the church “breathes with both lungs” again.
Both lungs? There are protestants also.
@@therealteacher8630 C'mon dude. Protestants don't have apostolic succession, sacraments, believe in sola fide and scriptura, they derive the most from the Church pre-1054
Amazing video thanks !! Trent Horn mentioned that Fr. Josiah articulated many objections against Catholicism that one might hear in fundamentalist Christian churches. In another video I saw by Fr. Josiah he mentioned that before becoming Orthodox, he studied at a Protestant seminary. I think too that he said he was raised in a Protestant church. It helps explain some of his critiques of Catholic beliefs.
Yes indeed. It's an issue of submitting to God-ordained authority, IMHO. For both Prots and EO.
the way he pronounces ''Rome'' is telling 😂
You should hear Orthodox saints speak about the Romans. He's much kinder. Protestants are much more polite. Although I think the reason they are not is they believe that the devil rules Rome. Well I guess by their fruits you shall know them.
@@N1IA-4 By their fruits you shall know them.
It's not really that Protestant at all. Protestants may not agree with some of these things as well, but the reasons are completely different theologically and historically.
I was waiting for that one for a long time
This is an interesting video... Congrats trent! I'd love to see it more times about orthodox church...
I want to congratulate Michael Lofton for the restraint of his almost constant superior laughter
Thank you for this - it really helps clarify a lot of the misunderstanding
So, they think we are Graceless, but spend almost no time trying to bring us to the “true Faith.” They don’t evangelize the world…
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.(B) 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,(C) baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,(D) 20 and teaching(E) them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you(F) always, to the very end of the age.”(G)
Which half of the schism has lived that commission?
Yeah thats major evidence for me that the Catholic Church is the true church of Christ.
@YAJUN YUAN and tony 😂😂😂. Your “church” did not exist until recently. Jesus wasn’t talking to SDA’s when he gave that command. You don’t have apostolic succession.
@YAJUN YUAN right, baby christians..man-made faith tradition of only 200yrs, with several divisions in less than 100yrs of existence. where were u folks the 1st 1800yrs?
"They don't evangelize the world" is far too reductive to be an accurate statement. What do you think is happening right now? Why are so many youth (and all ages) turning to Orthodoxy? Why has Orthodoxy seen such exponential growth of local numbers (especially in the US), in spite of such great oppression from Islam and Communism in the recent past? Are you aware whatsoever of the great mission through the US that began in Alaska, or its profound effects? Or the beautiful impact of monastic communities on various populations? Or of the evangelistic efforts happening personally and online (like the Patristix channel)? Or what about the fact that Orthodoxy actually embraces the local traditions of the places it evangelizes, rather than forcing locals to learn Latin?
The Orthodox do not evangelize by force or by necessitating the use of Latin, both of which are historically tied with Roman Catholicism.
Which half of the schism denies the filioque (not present in the original Creed), never dogmatized Purgatory (not an actual doctrine until the 12th century), never taught papal infallibility ex cathedra (didn't exist prior to 1869), still uses leavened bread in the Eucharist ("artos" or "l'hmo" in Greek and Aramaic respectively), still has patriarchal lineage with Peter (Antioch), etc.?
Also, which half of the schism did the Reformation branch out of? Hm...
Hello Trent/Michael, thank you for all your videos! I hope either one of you can in the future do a video on Eastern Orthodox Ecclesiology compared to Catholic, especially in light of the recent development with Russia declaring the Patriarch of Alexandria in Schism, and forming a Russian Exarchate in Africa in the same jurisdiction as Alexandria. Thank you both and God Bless.
P.S. I would not mind paying for such an episode to patreon or other means as I think it is such an important topic.
The best book on Orthodox eucharistic ecclesiology I have read is in the book “His Broken Body” by Fr Laurent Cleenewerck.
I would recommend the book “Eucharist, Bishop, Church” by John Zizoulas
On the Intellectual Conservatism UA-cam Channel there is an interview entitled - From Judaism, to Orthodoxy, to Catholicism: The Byzantine Scotist.
The interview Reinforces everything said here. God bless you both Mr. Horn and Mr. Lofton.
Will God bless Lofton's fake priest sock puppet account?
@@Jimmy-iy9pl what about Jay Dyer’s fake sock puppet accounts? 🤔
@@Jimmy-iy9pl I still have yet to see these "R&T sock puppet accounts." I've seen more evidence for Orthobro sock puppet accounts.
David "TheTurkishJamesWhite" Erhan's video was not convincing unless you're already predisposed to agreeing with him.
Wow, great video. Thanks a lot, God bless you guys!
There has never been an apparition of God our lord Jesus Christ or the Virgin Mary Mother of God in the orthodox church and never will they appear in the heretic orthodox church
Catholic church the One True Church founded by our lord Jesus Christ
1.4 billion faithful Catholics
You had me until: "1.4 billion faithful Catholics". Dude, come on. Biden, Pelosi, and countless others are not faithful to Catholic teaching.
@@phoult37 Good point you can take a few million away
I know your right because there are some so called Catholics who are only Catholic by name not by faith like the ones you mentioned
the Most Holy Theotokos appeared at a Coptic Orthodox Church in Zeitoun, Egypt. (they separated in 451 AD)
Great video
The crusaders destroyed Zadar in Croatia, a pure Catholic city...so yeah...bad people and bad politics is not a proof for anything
Yes! I listened to this video when it first came out and thought, "Trent should totally rebut this video." And here we are!
This is a gret example of something I noticed, that helped convince me that the Catholic church was the correct choice, and not the EO. There is such a strong, dripping, anti-Catholic hatred, which I never saw in the Catholic Church towards the EO! I've only ever witnessed Catholics showing appreciation and respect for the EO. I was actually shocked when I began to investigate, and saw a lot of content like this. I had no idea they felt this way about us! I thought we were very similar!
There were several other things as well, but this was a biggie.
I went through the very similar experience! I was questioning and interested in EO.. I had an acquaintance who had recently started attending EO church and he started railing against Catholics to me one day. He called the pope the anti Christ and Catholicism the church of Satan. I was blown away.. now I am positive his beliefs were a result of online radicalization but it really made me rethink EO positions on the schism. Luckily I found clear, level headed arguments and found no good excuse to be out of relationship to Rome. I continue to see this kind of polemical scare tactic being used among EO adherents online and it doesn’t help their cause imo.
It's insecurity.
That's normally the response, when people try to justify their position, is to try to disprove the Catholic church in anyway they can. Deep within their hearts, something bugs them about the Catholic church, that it could be the true church.
One reason we have lots of old and tired, the same anti-Catholic rhetoric's..
Look into the Sack of Constantinople, and you will see where the hatred is coming from....
@@CapIvo214 yea like the Orthodox hasn't made any mistakes in the past.
As far as I am concerned as a Catholic, I am okay with the hatred from EO if more souls will be saved because they have a strong formation.
I just pray they finally stop with the division,the hatred. it's evil, and it's destructive, and not good for our mission to save souls 🤷
I am not surprised at Father Josiah‘s criticisms of the Catholic Church seeing that he is a convert from the reformed tradition in the Presbyterian church. While I was listening to him he just smacked of pre-existing protestant biases against the Catholic Church under the guise of eastern Orthodoxy. That is not to say that I do not like eastern orthodoxy. In fact I live across the street from a Greek orthodox church and I attend their orthros quite a bit. I also live across the street from Boston’s Holy Cross Cathedral where they celebrate body ordinary and extraordinary forms of holy mass. So in a sense I’m double blessed.
An excellent colaboration.
I remember listening to this talk about a year ago trying to better understand Orthodox objections.
It's definitely a different kind of debate when you see the Catholic and Orthodox churches debate then with protestants
@YAJUN YUAN to be fair, Protestants can't solve their disagreements using the Bible either.
@@glof2553 Or at least their twisting of the wording in the bible
@@anonymoususer450We can actually read the thing and apply context to it. All you can do is treat it like an esoteric incomprehensible document that requires psuedo-Italian wizards to tell us what it means, defeating the purpose of having the Bible in the first place.
@@glof2553People of all religions disagree, guess that means we should be atheists.
Am I the only who is getting Pastor Mike Winger vibes from this orthodox priest
Yes
nope, not the only one
@Cameron O’Leary I was hesitant to say yes, but the more and more I listened to Fr. Trenham’s critiques, I started to get the same vibe. However, Winger is still leagues above Fr. Trenham in his snobbery.
Very definitely.he does remind one of Winger.
No, you are not the only one. He sounds **just** like a Protestant fundagelical who does not have Clue One about actual Catholic beliefs.
If Fr Josiah sees this I would want him to know that I love so much about Orthodoxy and have been binging on Orthodox preachers and teachers here on UA-cam (especially Father Spyridon!) Unfortunately when I found him on UA-cam I was wounded by his lack of charity and statements that were dubious in their historical accuracy. I have no problem hearing hard truths and spend much of my time seeking them out...but charity and humility and accuracy is what propels my ever deepening conversion. Peace.
To me, he sounded and reasoned like a Jehovah’s Witness. I am sorry to make this statement, I don’t mean in any unkind intention.
I have been searching the comments right now to see if anyone else picked up on what you said about Fr Josiah because I fully agree.
Anyone visiting an Orthodox Church will note the huge image of the Virgin Mary holding the Christ child overwhelming the entire interior of the church.
Where can we submit requests for future rebuttals?
Wondering the same thing
If you actually read the proceedings of the Council of Chalcedon, you will find that the assembled bishops did NOT recognize Pope Leo as the supreme authority who decided the issue. On the contrary, the council appointed a committee to examine the Tome of Leo. The committee reported back two days later with its conclusion that the Tome could be judged orthodox because it was consistent with the authoritative teaching of St Cyril of Alexandria. Only then did the assembled bishops acclaim the Tome. St Leo was actually rather annoyed at this outcome - that his Tome was subjected to the judgment of the council rather than recognized as authoritative.
I love that. Something really strong about that approach.
The Bible is clear both in the Old Testament and the New Testament that their is one and only one leader of the church at a time. Not a bevy of patriarchs each with his own power. Orthodoxy is fragmented into at least three denominations now. Peter had the primacy and orthodoxy is wrong. Case closed.
Welcome back
I love the lectures by father John Hardon, hopefully he’ll be made a saint 🙏🙂
Agreed I love his old audio retreat videos and teaching stuff. I also love his Catechism.
Halley@ his lectures changed my life and my understanding of the catholic faith, it’s an absolute shame that nobody knows his work with establishing the sisters of the poor and his role with the revised catechism etc.
@@martinmartin1363 I stumbled on one of his talks a few years ago , I could hardly pay attention due to his slow speaking style. But something about him was magnetic. I was irresistibly drawn to hear more . From then on , I listen to him almost every night about 30 minutes before bedtime. I Absolutely love him . For those who don’t know about him , do a UA-cam search , he has 100’s of hours of videos. Excellent instructions on understanding our faith and spiritual life
Tech @ have you actually watched this rebuttal, because if you did you would realise he's a heretic, just like Martin Luther whose followers believed in his magnetic teachings.
God bless
I honestly don't see how this filioque argument persists. Didn't Jesus say, "Everything which belongs to the Father is mine?" Seems pretty cut and dry to me.
This is a good point, I hadn't thought of that, thanks for sharing!
The Creed is referring to the eternal procession of the Holy Spirit. In John 15:26, Our Lord Himself states that the Spirit proceeds from the Father.
@@user-oh3tl7je1q Yes, but the Son is also eternally existent and all that belongs to the Father is the Son's. The Son is the very image of the Father and the Spirit is the expression of the Father and the Son, so I don't think this refutes my point. Thank you for engaging.
@@MrGoodwell the Father is the head and source of the Godhead. The Son is eternally begotten of the Father and the Holy Ghost (eternally) proceeds from the Father. This is the Orthodox understanding of the Trinity which is why the Filioque was never originally in the Creed but was added centuries later by the West.
You are confusing the terms possession with procession. They don’t mean the same thing.
Thanks for doing this gentlemen. It's interesting to note that the EO while bringing up the sack of Constantinople again and again seem to lapse into historical amnesia when it comes to their massacre of the Venetians. I did not find Fr. Josiah's tone or presentation to be so very "nice" or honest. His polemics wear polite manners, barely.
The Latin Massacre was markedly different; it was a movement of people against a foreign political group who had been extorting them for decades. Was it out of hand? Yes. Fr. Josiah isn’t beating around any bushes, both of these events are symptoms of the Schism that was solidifying. It’s an Orthodox Perspective on RCism, not everything will be things you want to hear. Charity isn’t defined as being nice and a push-over, it’s defined as being honest and humble.
@@trevorbinning4683 @Trevor Binning Were those orthodoxes killers excomunicated by the orthodox patriarchs like the catholic killers were excomunicated by the Pope? Always is the Catholic Church that apologizes for the actions of catholics but I never see another churches apologize for the actions of his followers. That's elocuent.
@@trevorbinning4683 of course charity is about being honest and humble, but using an excuse that has also been used for more recent modern genocides in order to make your point about the massacre of the Venetians shows that you are neither honest, humble, nor charitable.
It feels to me that if we don’t reunite is because of these converts from the USA. I rarely hear such things from cradle Orthodox from Orthodox countries.
And I say USA specifically because most of these converts come from Protestant backgrounds that are strongly anti Catholic. I know former Catholics from Europe who became Orthodox, and they all want orthodox doctrine and unity to be restored.
Im so relieved that you did a rebuttal video on this video, because I actually wasn’t sure if these huge claims were correct. I caught some small inconsistencies but I was shocked when I watched it. It had me really second guessing things..but I needed to hear your perspective and Thank God you did this video! I just watched this video last night so God knows or the algorithm is spot on lol! Thank you Trent!
You should research all the rebuttals they are all manipulative falsehoods. For example, the beginning saying that we were commemorating together until the 18th century, especially in the Arab countries. Wow, that is true. The orthodox that work commemorating with the Catholics did not know that they were Catholics. They were unions so they dress like acted like the orthodox Church. They open churches across the street from orthodox churches and open schools and offered free schools for the children as long as they come to this church. When the anthemas were lifted in the 50s or 60s that I remember the pope promised to disband this church. Unfortunately for the pope this church really enjoys acting like it's orthodox because it feels more natural. It's called the Byzantine right. That's just the beginning. The Templars while under the popes command kept constantinople for almost 100 years and stole all their goods and sent them to your lovely city of Venice. Information art gold. This is why you have so much artifacts from Byzantium in Italy because they stole it and brought it back. So while the pope may have publicly condemned, he secretly agreed and stole the spoils. That's just the beginning.
@BusyBeeFarms Trent is wrong. He knows that
Wonderful video. A few points, not necessarily grounded in any theology. Just my general observations:
1) I find overwhelmingly that Catholics tend to be much more charitable towards EO brothers and sisters. The opposite is not typically the case. It reminds me of protestants going after Catholics with many shallow arguments/misunderstanding what the faith actually teaches.
2) Per point 1, EO seems to be the path many protestant converts take, EO tends to entertain disdain for all things "Catholic" and protestants find it easier to go the EO route than to submit to the authority of Rome- in essence they continue "protesting" while believing the bulk of what Catholics believe. "Anything but the Catholic Church"
3) EO is definitely unique in that it is mystical and timeless. It's as if the clock stopped ticking and things never kept moving forward. While this is very special and beautiful, it isn't reality. Times change and while the truth remains the same, different times/eras bring about new questions and dilemmas. I think of topics such as: divorce/remarrying, contraception, lack of councils post schism. The church is a living, breathing, and active entity that adapts to the needs of the time. Again, the truth never changes, but the church must respond to the demands of the times in a definitive manner- which the Catholic church has always done consistently on a world stage.
4) The western church is always looking for dialogue and to restore unity. The east tends to favor shutting out any talk of reconciliation. I find the west willing to come to the table to make this happen but with so many individual EO autonomous "churches" it makes it very difficult to achieve. There is much more animosity from the east towards the west.
5. Overall, Lack of evangelization from EO, historically speaking. The Christian Faith spread to every end of the world because of and through Catholic efforts, not EO church.
6. The evil of communism and it's conception and pervasiveness in the East. The errors of Russia, an Orthodox nation, has caused irreparable harm to the world (Fatima). It is the Western Church that has without compromise, time and time again spoken out against this evil.
Last overall point: In seeing how much the Catholic Church is attacked by what seems like everyone. And how there is a desire to see the Church crumble and implode from within, it seems obvious to me that Satan and his legions spend a whole lot of energy trying to destroy the Church. You don't attack what you aren't threatened by or concerned with.
Yea, the same for me!
@@nicadagWell the (Eastern) Orthodox Churches have had councils post-Schism, believe it or not. One example is the Pan-Orthodox council of Jerusalem.
This was so interesting! I wanted to watch few minutes but ended up watching almost the whole thing.
Is there a video where you talk about historicity of Adam and Noah? Or a good book you would recommend?
Watch Inspiring Philosophy
I hope you do more rebuttals of Orthodox figures in the future. Possible Ubi Petrus. Great video!
Yes! Ubi imo presents the best case for Orthodoxy. I’d love to see Catholics respond to him.
Good luck 😉
@@devinmassengill9153 There has been some. Allan Ruhl and Elijah Yasi have done some good stuff. But, I really think Trent would be great at it as well. Especially after seeing how badly he tore Jay Dyer apart in his response.
@@devinmassengill9153 you are EO right? As a Catholic, even though I don’t like him I think Jay Dyer is a way better apologist.
There's a handful of EO guys I like and Ubi is actually is in there (he's fiery but sharp). I'd love to see a response to his stuff
What to me is the tell with the Orthodox Church is the degree of pique many of the adherents have toward the Church all _out of proportion_ to the actual disagreements. This is especially noteworthy given the commandment we all stand under to be generous and kind, especially toward fellow travelers in the faith. Hello..?
@YAJUN YUAN , to arouse anger or resentment in : IRRITATE (Webster's)
Yes. They *exaggerate* the disagreements -- as if there's some virtue in ***fighting*** reunion. 🤦
In these difficult times the emphasis should be more on what Christians share in common...
Oh hey, I watch your channel. Great work 👌
As an adult convert, we were not fully immersed nor was it mentioned in any teaching or lead me to believe that had be done. We were in a Church not a river.
I listened to Fr Josiah's video. He talks about the 3 children of Fatima being 3 girls - hence, the letter that was written to the 'youngest' daughter. If he can't get this basic information correct, how can we trust the rest of what he says?
As a curious "Latin" who has attended Byzantine and Ukrainian Catholic rite liturgies, his remarks about people not feeling comfortable going to a Roman church after reunification is ridiculous. One isn't obliged to partake in the Latin rite as I am not obliged to partake in an eastern rite, but we could partake in each other's liturgies to learn from each other. I know a lot of Roman rite that have no interest in attending byzantine rite liturgies but I also know several that are curious and enjoy celebrating particular feasts with the eastern rites and learning from them.
i'm one of them!
I am just curious no slight is intended I want to know where you're coming from when you say "latin rite" communion with orthodox but use Roman Liturgy. I was baptized RCC in 1955. There still are catholics, not sede vecantis, but Roman Catholic that use the 1955 missal and the ordinary along with dates and saints fasts and movable feasts from that missal. The only church that used Latin not the vernacular was SSPX. Queen of Angels Chapel in Dickinson TX. I am Russian orthodox but there's no ROCOR much less Russian Orthodox. So I worship with Ukrainian Orthodox. The novous odo new Mass of Vatican ll is barely legitimate.
Guys, c'mon, if you're going to "rebut" Fr. Trenham at least have him on the show. I watched the interview with him on R&T and nobody would ask him anything controversial. Nothing was even debated. Not sure if that's because he's more of an intellectual heavyweight within EO, or what, but I think a friendly debate would be a lot more productive, and fair, than setting up straw men based on video clips of a speech.
I may be mistaken but I guess at that time Michael Lofton was still Eastern Orthodox. And it was not a debate. If that is correct, only later Michael converted back to the Catholic Church, which he left for EO after being scandalized with problems with his parish and priest. Look for his own personal testimony (Protestantism, EO and Catholicism). Even so, I guess it’s not unfair to do rebuttal videos on someone - and some specific video - that did not care to ask a Catholic fellow to dialectically make opposition to him, being the very objective of the video to detract Catholicism or (at the very least) to represent it unfavorably. And it is a “flagship” video online. So I sincerely don’t appreciate how easily people fall for double standards (mostly when the double standard is harmful to us Catholics). That being said, I agree it would be nice to have him since he is a great speaker (not as nice as a polemicist though). Peace be with you. From 🇧🇷 Brazil with love.
@@masterchief8179 No? Nothing was debated because it was an interview, and the questions and topics were agreed beforehand. So please...
@@sebastos- ??? So you disagreed or agreed with me?
@@masterchief8179 Ok, my bad. I don't think he was an orthodox when he hosted the interview, that's what the "No?" at the beginning was for, the rest of the comment was for OP. Sorry for being confusing lol.
Don't assume. The questions I asked him were agreed on before hand. Some people don't allow themselves to be challenged. I was still happy to talk to him, however.
Fr. Josiah: this is all a modern novelty.
Council of Florence (trying to reconcile with the Orthodox Church in the 15th century): am I a joke to you?
You said that reunification is always the goal; that's true for us, not them. We have left the door open and the olive branch for centuries hoping for reconciliation. They flat out do not want it. From my encounters with them they think that we are evil at worst and lost at best.
Why would the orthodox jump on a sinking ship? Catholicism is hemorrhaging, and is not a sister church but and erroneous one. There is no reason for the orthodox to reunify at all. Maybe you can imagine the Anglicans wanting to reunify with Catholics? Surely that you would opposed that?
@@barbarae.9129 Russia has the highest rates of abortion in the developed world, has the highest rates of divorce in Europe, and has lower weekly Church attendance than notoriously secularist nations like Sweden. Why I use Russia as a reference, and not Greece is that patriarch Bartholomew has repeatedly said that reunion with Rome is inevitable.
@@barbarae.9129 Anglicans do reunify with Catholics. Look up the Anglican Ordinariate, and the 22 Anglican Bishops who have come into communion with Rome since 1996.
@@barbarae.9129 But you prove my point Catholics have repeeatedly said that reunion is the goal we are the proverbial abandoned spouse leaving the light on, waiting for our beloved to return, while they would rather be out carousing and talking about how miserable they were while married. All in all it actually makes a lot of sense as an analogy considering the Eastern churches' theology regarding divorce.
@@MrSggurcs yeah, yeah I can, and I do.
In all his mannerisms, intonation and even the way he looks down when he ridicules the church, this guy totally reminds me of Mike Winger.
And now I am picturing them talking to each other on such a podium.
My biggest issue with eastern orthodoxy, is they can not even say who is christian by baptism. If you get baptized by the greeks, the russian do no accept that...and need to be re-baptized.
Is that because of the Moscow Constantinople schism
The Eastern Orthodox are one. Doesn't matter if you are greek baptised or Russian baptised, you are Orthodox.
Protestant and Orthodox objections to the Catholic Church due to its sinfulness are, as someone below aptly said, disingenuous. When did Jesus promise His church would be impeccable? He handpicked 12 men to serve with Him, minister with Him, and take over after Him. And, yet, they were all far from perfect. One sold Him out for thirty pieces of silver; the appointed steward of His Kingdom denied Him three times on the night of His Passion; and all but one abandoned Him at the Cross! Moreover, we have plenty of evidence the Lord taught the opposite of an impeccable church. He told stories about the Kingdom being made up of good fish and bad fish, wheat and tares, sheep and goats. Jesus also felt the deep need to pray for the visible unity of the church. If the church were supposed to be impeccable, then there would be no such need for Jesus to pray thusly. In fact, Jesus promised His church not impeccability but indefectibility. He promised the gates of Hades would not prevail against the church; He told His apostles that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide the church into all truth; He assured His followers that He would be with them until the end of the age. That's what the Lord promised, not that the church would be totally holy and led by sinless men. If you believe the church should be impeccable, there's a word for that: Donatism. If you believe in "sinless perfection," then you're in reality a "Campbellite" (Disciples or Churches of Christ) and not Catholic or Orthodox!
Eph 5:25-27: "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her in order to sanctify her, having purified her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present her to himself in glory, without any spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but holy and flawless."
@@janerickquinabato6710 And yet you manage to overlook Jesus' other teachings about the church as made up of good fish and bad fish, wheat and weeds, sheep and goats! What you are quoting are true words of encouragement for holiness and spotlessness. But they can't overlook other biblical texts. All Scripture is inspired and not just my preferred prooftexts!
@UCjW2-zMiTV4LvewPOLbc9iQ If the saints were impeccable, why then did St. Paul need to write to them so often about their sins? Can you show me an example from Scripture or history of a spotless church, one without bad fish, tares, or goats? Are the churches mentioned at the start of the book of Revelation blameless? Prooftexts without contexts are just pretexts!
For next time, let's get Michael to use his zoomed-in camera. Other than that fantastic conversation! I learned a lot.
So many things wrong with what this priest says! I'm tempted almost to pity him, so many of his arguments are fallacious. I'm grateful Trent & Michael address some of them.
American Orthodox converts from anti Catholic background. Cradle Orthodox are more for unity
Great video! Just a small correction the ruthenian byzentine church does not distribute the Eucharist by dipping the body in the blood. Ruthenians receive together with a spoon :) It is melkites who do intinction :)
1:31:23 Hey Trent, any update on this Oneness Pentecostal rebuttal? I can’t find it in your catalogue and I’d love to see you do more polemics against their practices.
Good job Trent 👍
Just as an aside on the discipline of Baptism/Chrismation/Communion in the West. In those countries that were formerly Spanish Colonies, long before Pope Pius XII granted with the faculties of the local ordinary to confirm, Catholics were baptized, confirmed and given first communion at the same time. The Holy See granted this during the time of the Spanish Colonization because it was rare that a bishop would make a visit to far flung settlements let alone the availability of a priest. With a high infant mortality, the Holy See felt the graces of the three sacraments were needed and should not be postponed for those living outside of larger cities. My own sister married a man who was born in New Mexico in 1958 where the practice and indult was still being practiced at that time. It was such a common practice that he was unaware that Catholics elsewhere had a different discipline. As they were married in California, when they sent for his Baptismal Certificate, she asked why they were all done on the same date, when he was a week old. As luck would have it, the priest who would marry them was an older priest from Arizona, where the same practices were practiced in his younger days as a priest, and he explained to them how and why the discipline started and endured until after Vatican II.
also, regarding married men being ordained, it was seen as a discipline that was followed for the salvation of souls.
It is the same as the practice in the east with Married clergy. While normally a man who is ordained cannot marry. If a married man is ordained a deacon or priest and his wife dies, he may not remarry, unless he and his wife had children and they were young enough to need a mother to care for them. Eastern Catholic and Orthodox bishops have through their ability to grant an indult, or in the east Economia, permission for the priest to marry another woman, in a true and valid marriage in order to protect and raise the children. As a real marriage, they too may engage in the marital bed, and God willing have their own children.
I've visited father Josiah's parish before, and one of the parishoners did confirm to me that he does rebaptize all converts that come through his parish, it doesnt matter if they were Catholic, Protestant, etc.
Pretty standard practice in the Orthodox world. Our Bishop in Australia does the same thing.
In Slovakia it is optional I think and when I attended "Greek Catholic" divine liturgy, it was said in church slavic.
That's a good video I really loved the truth to be told. God bless 🙏 🛐 🗝️ 🗝️ 💯 Catholic, Love Trent & Michael Lofton.
Ayyyy thats firee
Controversies regarding baptism and membership in the Catholic Church date back to the 3rd century when the Novatians caved to the emperor's demands to make sacrifices to the pagan gods. St Cyprian took a strong stance against their re-entry into the Church, however, I believe the Church settled the matter the following century in Augustine's day recognizing their baptisms as already valid and allowed reconciliation to the Church after long penances.
I'm eastern orthodox and I really respect you Trent. I loved that you answered these very important differences although I didn't agree with you but it is very important to have these consistent discussion and pray for a future that has (well my wish and dream) A true 8th ecumenical council that brings together the ancient one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Trent makes my day! 👍👍🙏✝️🛐🙏
Additionally as far as the sacking of Constantinople goes they tend to see it as ecclesiastic, rather than political. Venetian mercenaries helped the Emperor reclaim his throne, but he failed to pay them. They also conveniently leave out the massacre of the Latins.
Misery loves company doesn't it? You want us to share in your heresies ? The Orthodox Church wasn't the one that broke away. You did by changing the dogma and adding the heresy of the Filioque and many other heresies. As an Orthodox I will never bow down to your corrupt pope. If you want to talk further about this im open to discussion.
Latins are essentially responsible for the fall of Eastern roman empire .all the suffering orthodox Christians had to go through is because of the betrayal by the Latins .
You guys are really gracious to Fr Josiah. Personally I find him to be arrogant, ungracious, and self righteous. I find his history of the Catholic church to be wildly one-sided. It's a shame the people in this audience seem to find his screed illuminating.
I don’t find him self righteous at all
Trent, one question… how the other eastern patriarchs (Jerusalem, Antioch and Alexandria) reacted to the excommunications? Didnt really find something about that. Were they in line with Constantinople’s patriarch, or were objections?
The "original" patriarchates of antioch and alexandria had fallen to heressy of monophysit and since then they were "replaced" by the empire with byzantine one version. Thats why their rite is LITERALLY THE SAME, while the original ones were not.
@@theosteven3362 I know that, and this wasnt my question.
Charity and love kindness will bind us together