I think the removal of the blister packs might have raised the bar for entry. When I started the hobby back in the 90s I would just buy a blister a week, and I would a plastic regiment box every now and then.
I used to do the same, and this is a good point. There are no pocket money/allowance purchases these days, as "cheap" models are wrapped up in big ticket items. It is very difficult to spend 5-15 dollarydoos on something these days, you need to spend 100+ at a time to access models are relatively priced at 5. I guess it is effective marketing for adults with disposable income, but it isn't compatible for kids.
Adjusting for inflation the prices of GW stuff are the same prices or cheaper than they were when I started in like '99, but wages in the UK, Canada, and the US, adjusted for inflation, have gone down since '99.
Last time I saw a Timmy (early teens) in the store was last year. Came in, agonized over a Combat Patrol for an hour because he'd been saving for the better part of a year, and left. No glue, no snips, no paints, no rulebooks. He probably got home and had the worst experience because nobody prepared him for "the rest of the owl." I'd be amazed if he's still in the hobby.
I guarantee you the Timmy's of today don't need rulebooks, at least. They're going to be reading about it online and then just getting funneled to Wahapedia.
In order to feed the algorithm…I wanna repeat, you guys offer a rather grounded view of GW…it’s cool. So I started about the same time as you guys in the 90’s…back in the day, I temper dreaming about slapping down a credit card and by a huge amount at once, while I spent the best part of a year saving up to buy a 20 big savage orc unit one blister at a time (I did just that when I got into 40k a bought all the Tallarn I wanted. And before that, purchasing my dream savage Orc army all at once (40 savage orcs, 10 savage orc boar boys, 6 trolls, 10 spider riders , an Arachnarock & a smattering of savage orc characters…Im lucky I can)
Re: hobbies & the walking statement; George Carlin had a joke in one of his sets that went something like, "I don't have hobbies, I have interests. Hobbies cost money."
Back in the mid/late 90s the hobbystore was a wild mix of childen and adult customers. Who would spend their time there. Ofc the children couldnt afford the biggest boxes, but they could afford blisters and even regiment boxes on a regular basis. Playing 1500-2000p Warhammer Fantasy was no impossible thing to aim for. It could be done, although it took discipline and time. Since the great flu I have not seen a single child buying warhammer in our flgs ( some buy cardgames ofc ). Now I know that this only presents anecdotal evidence, but it might be the same in other stores around the globe.
It was an obscene amount of money for entry even back in the 80s to explain to a parent. I fully support proxy with 3d printing. Gw does not deserve any more money.
@@FitzTheMarinerI don’t have kids but I do have a girlfriend that I’ve lived with for 6 years now and finding ways to spend face to face quality time where we’re talking and not on screens is difficult. We’re Gen Z and grew up with ubiquitous internet access and so most of our hobbies, including shared ones, revolve around screens. Almost all of my friends’ and same generation family members’ main hobbies are online, or at least involve a screen. It can be hard to find mutual interests away from screens, though we share a bunch of online ones. Magic the Gathering is a fun and expressive hobby I got her into that we share now. It gives us time to sit and talk and have a face to face human connection without online distractions. There are many other hobbies that can achieve this too: building legos, assembling models, building & painting miniatures, ball sports, gardening, martial arts, drawing, music, board games, and others. Many hobbies exist, all of which are money pits, if it lets a father spend quality time with his children then the purchase is inherently justified. I don’t blame Gen X or Millennial or older Gen Z dads at all for wanting to use this type of hobby to spend time with their kids. Not only are American parents so busy with work but their kids are addicted to something online. I’m blessed to be so close with my pops, who is nearly 70, despite the huge generational gap. I’m not sure I’ve ever heard anyone near my age or younger tell me they have a very close relationship with their dad like me. A big part of my and my pops being so close is that we’d share mutual hobbies often, or he’d take an interest in mine. When I was at his house for the week, we’d watch movies several nights and usually discuss it throughout. A lot of times he’d sit on the recliner and watch me play video games, commenting on stuff in the game or asking me questions. Whenever we go on road trips he shows me music from his era. Now that I’m a man I listen to it on my own and show him classics I discovered or ones he might’ve forgotten. Any financial cost is nothing compared to a strong bond between father and son. My dad also taught me this, and I believe him.
@@FitzTheMariner I don’t have kids but I do have a girlfriend that I’ve lived with for 6 years now and finding ways to spend face to face quality time where we’re talking and not on screens is difficult. We’re Gen Z and grew up with ubiquitous internet access and so most of our hobbies, including shared ones, revolve around screens. Almost all of my friends’ and same generation family members’ main hobbies are online, or at least involve a screen. It can be hard to find mutual interests away from screens, though we share a bunch of online ones. Magic the Gathering is a fun and expressive hobby I got her into that we share now. It gives us time to sit and talk and have a face to face human connection without online distractions. There are many other hobbies that can achieve this too: building legos, assembling models, building & painting miniatures, ball sports, gardening, martial arts, drawing, music, board games, and others. Many hobbies exist, all of which are money pits, if it lets a father spend quality time with his children then the purchase is inherently justified. I don’t blame Gen X or Millennial or older Gen Z dads at all for wanting to use this type of hobby to spend time with their kids. Not only are American parents so busy with work but their kids are addicted to something online. I’m blessed to be so close with my pops, who is nearly 70, despite the huge generational gap. I’m not sure I’ve ever heard anyone near my age or younger tell me they have a very close relationship with their dad like me. A big part of my and my pops being so close is that we’d share mutual hobbies often, or he’d take an interest in mine. When I was at his house for the week, we’d watch movies several nights and usually discuss it throughout. A lot of times he’d sit on the recliner and watch me play video games, commenting on stuff in the game or asking me questions. Whenever we go on road trips he shows me music from his era. Now that I’m a man I listen to it on my own and show him classics I discovered or ones he might’ve forgotten. Any financial cost is nothing compared to a strong bond between father and son. My dad also taught me this, and I took it to heart
I think obviously GWs prices are a problem but I think there’s couple more that are big culprits: 1) the game is so normalized for 2000pts even if it’s not true that you need that many models to play it “feels” like you “need” that many to play “real games”. This puts people off. It’s not all GWs fault, it’s also the community, UA-camrs etc… 2) the rules just don’t work well at lower points. 500pt games require a lot of list restrictions and whatnot that mean it’s hard for new players to have fun games at low points. Combat Patrol and Boarding actions are both half decent solutions at solving this problem but I feel like they both fail in different ways (Combat patrol is too restrictive and Boarding Actions is both expensive and also restrictive (no vehicles, etc…) It’s hard for a new player to just buy a box, paint it and play and then add to it with another box every couple of months or something. Which is how it was when I got into it (mid 90’s). I didn’t have a full 2000pt army until well into 3rd edition and never felt that I wasn’t playing real 40k. Games were easy and fun at 500pts, 750, 1k, etc…
I'm an adult (40), who plays other miniature war games, and this has been it for me. I see a combat patrol box, and think, "thats a reasonable army" - and I could see an army being twice that size. But the reality is most 2000pt armies are 3-5 times that size. And I have heard from friends that the game doesn't really balance or play well at under 1000, so 2k is the norm. But 2k seems just too much. Too much to set up, to cart around to the hobby store, to move around to in the game, more models than I want, more models than I will find interesting in any army or lots of redundancy. Also, seems like games take WAAAYY too long. And I'm aware that some armies are more swarm or less swarm. But the scale of the game is a huge put off for me.
@ model inflation is crazy. I also like to remind people that in 2e a basic tactical squad of marines was 300pts before any wargear and it was easy to get it up to 400pts. 2 squads (from the starter box) and a character is an easy 1000pt army. Add another vehicle/squad/character or two and you have a “full” 1500pt army.
@@Dram1984 I think this is the main problem tbh. Prices have increased beyond inflation but that isnt the main issue, the killer is needing 2-3 times as much shit before you have a workable army, and the rules only really being "balanced" for games of 2000pts.
I started playing and painting in mid 90s. And as you have just reminded us, it was a matter of adding very slowly one piece to another. Over time, whenever you could, or your parents, afford the expense. We may sound like old farts here, however what I see with kids and young adults is that they strive to purchase everything at once. At that point is expensive. But in my humble opinion that is not what a hobby is or meant to be: one tile at the time, and you will appreciate what you are accomplishing. It is very likely that this is the exact same criticism our parents used to shout at us when we were kids. The vicious and eternal circle is always going around. Sure. Perhaps those youngsters who are complaining today will be parents one day in the future, and they wil repeat word for word what we are saying in 2024. Patience, it is all about patience, trusting your commitment will last as long as possible.
At my club there is increasing appetite for smaller points games. Combat patrol and BA leagues have been popular. And more people are choosing 1000pt or 1500pt games. Even looking at redhammer list restrictions for 1000pts to try to balance it. It's just too difficult to get through a 2000pt game in an evening and needing that many units is a huge barrier to newer players
Yeah 40k, in my case, was always expensive. I discovered WH in the late 80s and played into the mid 90's. I wasn't able to afford actually trying to buy a proper army until the end of that because I then had real summer jobs. Cleaning the capital's tube system off graffitti using carcinogenic cleaning products sprayed with high pressure water to spread that stuff everywhere. Yum.
I remember talking people into playing back in 97-99. "$100 will get you started. That'll get you two tactical squads, a tank , and a few characters. You'll just need glue and paint."
They used to sell boxes of 5 marines and boxes of singular bikes etc. As a kid thats how I bought alot of my models because I couldn't afford the big boxes until I got abit older.
I think these are the products that have vanished. Buying a unit in parts a blister at a time was much more viable than trying to save for one of the modern boxes.
Warhammer as a hobby was never really cheap to get into but it was an easier entry/build up. I was lucky and started with DnD back in the day and transitioned over to Fantasy then 40k, so I could go from a single mini, dice set and a rule book to picking up more blisters and troop boxes. The big factor was that if I picked up some armies books they didn't change for years. It was a slow build up of collecting the army with an occasional new unit created or an updated book/edition. Now-a-days how long does an edition or army book last. I remember buying a new codex only for it to be rendered useless 2 months later with a new edition.
Yep, this is the main difference for sure, being able to slowly build a collection from individual purchases. Now doing so will just be so much worse financially makes it not even worth it.
You also didn't need to worry about the meta because there was no competitive scene and no internet to find out what was good. So you just bought what you thought was cool and used that. On the flip side 40k 2nd edition was crazy unbalanced. Space wolves were nuts! 😂
@@HB2K-h8m it was unbalanced but I feel like community norms kept it in check. Like sure you could take 20 wolf guard terminators with assault cannons but everyone would make fun of you for being “beardy” and not play with you. And if we found something during play that was cheesy we had a laugh about it and then just didn’t play that way anymore.
As an Uncle of a 15yo and 17yo boy. I just 3D printed two 1000pts proxy armies for both of them. Got them a starter paint set. They were very happy. It's probably the least expensive present I ever got them 😅
My first games of WFB were 5th ed. It was my 2nd Gen Slaan in a unit of temple guard vs my buddy's Nagash and 10 wraiths. Whoever drew total power first won. It's always been expensive. We just found a way.
I think the idea that the ONLY way to play warhammer is a 2000 point matched play army is where a lot of the idea that “the hobby is too expensive to get into” comes from. When a kid or a teen looks around online at batreps or looks up tournament requirements, and they price that out then it becomes really daunting to them. I think one thing that helped me get started (2003 I think with battle for Macragge) is people were willing to play small games with me each weekend when I went to the hobby store as my army grew. The comment I have on price point is I remember blister packs were on average $10, and a unit was $30-$40. Atleast for me, that meant I could usually get a blister packs once a week or so with pocket change, and I could get a set every month or two, based on getting paid for odd jobs etc. I think that after getting a starter box, that rate of growth for my army was kind of perfect.
As a gamer of some 30+ years I feel that the goals have changed, I spent most of my teens in GW stores, games were 1k points, generally achievable numbers of models. Now its always 2k games for 40k/aos and with 10th ed they've really pushed the points costs down so armies are massive and even for a seasoned and fast painter like me it's quite a mountain to climb. So yes it's an expensive hobby but so are all hobbies, I always use the cinema as my go to example, in the UK a cinema trip is usually about £20 a person for 2 hours of entertainment. A box of toy soldiers at £40 gives far more than 4 hours of entertainment even if they are removed from the game after 10 years.
I really feel like people don’t understand just how inflated the model count has gotten. The 2e box came with two Tactical squads of marines that cost 716pts. Buy a character model or two and you have a thousand point army. Add a vehicle and another squad/character etc… and you have 2000pts. 3rd bumped the model count and it’s just gone bananas since.
I remember back in the late 90s a friend tried to get me into 40k / Mordheim, but it was too expensive for me even back then. I didn't start playing until I had a steady job in the late 2000s. Even then I was very particular with what I bought. I bought my son a lot of 40k over the past few years and brought out my old collection. The one good thing with 40k is the minis can be used for years/decades and you can always find someone to play.
It all depends on how you want to interact with the hobby. GW’s book store boxes are great values to introduce a kid to building models, clipping, gluing and painting. Introducing them to a small measure of the game that’s more digestible before growing from there. Like blitz bowl and growing into blood bowl, or blade born and advancing into Warcry.
Another point that I think bears mentioning is way back when there was less knowledge available and you learned about things a lot slower so buying a kit here and there was normal and affordable for parents. We might get a WD or a catalogue and look at if for months and think about this unit or that. If I was a kid now I’d be bringing an entire list to my parents I pulled off the internet because that’s what I “need” to play and they would have immediately shut it down, lol.
Back in the late 90s-early 2000s I remember my buddy and I used to rationalize any purchase we would make, be it a soda, or a pack of cards, based on this motto “that’s like half the price of a pot of paint!” 😂 We were brutally aware of how expensive the hobby was, and it was a big deal when we bought a new blister pack. Never had complete armies, but we had dreams!
I got into WHFB in 1994 and bought the 4th ed Undead Army box for $350CDN, which in Edmonton at the time was one months rent for a nice one bedroom apartment. Warhammer has always been pricey, but so are alot of hobbies, just look at the prices for the good quality electric trains!
As soon as Jay mentioned building up an army with a few blister packs at a time, I thought "but they don't have blister packs anymore". Used to be able to get a box of the plastic mono pose figures for NZ$20, now you'll be lucky to get even a single mini for under $50.
sooo, i was there in the UK and there is a reason why. the shops organised games, the poor kids were known for causing trouble, not all, but enough that it was off putting for the shop, remember, this was a business using delicate models, keeping the price to a more medium income family guaranteed 2 things, safe handling and a better crowd
"The hobby" for me when I was a little Timmy was just 1 box of marines, or knights etc. I never had enough for starter sets, even in the 90s. We played with 6 minis each, we were happy with it.
I’ll echo what others have stated about model cost versus model count “needed to play”. I remember splitting RTB01 with my brother; we thought the models were cool even though compared to Ral Partha figures GW stuff was expensive. The cost of the miniatures then versus now hasn’t changed that much but I think what has changed is the size of games. The games now are huge compared to 2nd edition. I think that is the real difference between starting Warhammer now versus the early/mid 90s.
@@motorbikekultofspeed1094 bingo. A normal 2e era army was a couple/few squads, a couple characters and a vehicle/dreadnaught etc… at least for everyone but orks
Let me pull up my Grognard Rocking Chair.... I started with the RT book in 1987 and had to play with the paper cutouts in the back until I could buy RT01 ! It's a hobby, not food, so it's relative to what you value spending your time on. Video Games, Guns, Golf, or little plastic men. It all costs, but no one said you had to dump your wallet at the start.
I know someone will say videogames but at some point almost every boy of my generation (mid 40s) had tried to build and paint an Airfix model. Trying Warhammer was like 'Airfix but more fun theme'
I ended up giving away the Necron half of Indomitus box, then later a full Grey Knights army to a family friends teenager. Because the hobby is expensive. I'm in the uk and collecting the Combat Patrol Magazine, which is probably the cheapest way to get a varied set of official models. Always better if you can club together with a friend to split the cost and the forces. It was always said that GW's biggest competitor wasn't other games or hobbies, but McDonalds. The £5 in a kids pocket that could buy something in GW was competing with him meeting his mates and having a crafty meal. Ofcourse inflation and price rises changed that. The days of being able to buy either models in blisters or McDonalds for £5 are a dim and distant memory. Now I feel old.
When I was slightly younger than today the book came with cut-out tokens at the back of the book in a softcover version. being very poor students we walked down to the post office and copied the sheets and then fought it out on the floor among casette tapes and other terrain. Now that was a good onboarding to the hobby for sure. :D The Battle at the farm we fought with plastic army men and some pewter orcs and dwarves from those Prince August moulds a few years ealier, don't think the store even had any miniatures yet. Yes, this whole comment is garbage time but it's fun to be nostalgic every now and then without contributing to the discussion. :D
My 12 year old is very into Warhammer after i got back into the hobby during covid and we started 2nd edition kill team together. Any pocket money and gift money goes on marines or video games. What I am surprised about is that his friend up the road also has a big Tyranids collection and the son of an old school friend of mine is also into the hobby (despite his dad having no interest at all). Seen plenty of kids in the local stores. It might be different in the UK where GW has a much greater retail presence even if the stores have moved out of the town centres now. Prices are also cheaper here, compared to N America even if our purchasing power is less due to lower wages. Undoubtedly was easier back in the day, a group of us would go to the mall and browse blister packs and there was no expectation of fielding huge 2000pt armies. Most of my 40k stuff was second hand. A different, pre internet era.
I was just starting to price my new Warhammer items for my new store. I've played since the 90s, but have been very inactive for the last ten years or so. Mainly play Tyranids. Picked up the Redemptor Dreadnought, scanned it into our stock, looked up the MSRP......and I couldn't believe it was $80 USD. Apparently I was WAY out of the loop on prices.
I started 40K around the beginning of 2nd edition. Back then the hybrid pewter/plastic kits were the norm. I remember a Tactical Squad costing 30USD. When accounting for inflation the current price for a box of Intercessors is very similar. The current pricing on character models is much worse. I got two Blood Angel Captains for 8USD in a blister pack. The building part is much easier now. All plastic means no supergluing parts to your fingers. Scraping mold lines is so much easier with plastic compared to pewter. Likewise, kit bashing with metal was harder than plastic. The current kits and army lists actively discourage kit bashing now. Codex prices are rough. 2nd ed Codices were 20USD. Now to play Blood Angels you need the 60USD Space Marine Codex and the 35USD Blood Angel Codex Supplement. Rules churn: constant updates, points changes and short lifespan for the books/editions make the hobby harder and/or more expensive for everyone (not just Timmy). To me the rules do not seem friendly for newbs or casual players. Perhaps a more durable rules set for 40K "Lite" would be a welcome change.
As someone getting back into the hobby after about a 10-year lapse, the sticker shock is real. You are also correct that when you look at the actual hours of enjoyment you are going to get out of assembly, painting, and potentially playing games as well, it's an excellent return on investment. Your mileage may vary, depending on what aspects of the hobby you consider enjoyable, and which things are viewed as chores or optional.
I got into the tabletop game and model side of it around mid 6th edition, 2013? I had been reading Warhammer Fantasy and 40k a few years prior to that. I do think recently over the last 2 years the prices have gone up a lot versus what they were when I got into it. For example the price of a tactical squad box, or the first generation Sanguinary Guard or Death Company boxes? I think it's harder to get into as a kid, teen, etc. nowadays. But you make good points when you compare the cost of kids being into console video games versus a GW hobby. Yeah on par, or slightly in favor for GW's offerings. I was always a hardcore buyer. Had Blood Angels, had to end up with a 12k collection. Dark Angels, had 10k, lol. At 53 I think maybe 2 years ago I started realizing that just wasn't the best way to enjoy the hobby. My 40k collection now are Black Templars and I told myself I'll go 6.5k or so tops and that is it. I can always realistically look at that size of collection and not feel overwhelmed when thinking about painting it. In summary I feel prices are higher versus when I got into it even with value of money, etc but versus other popular hobbies it's not too expensive or anything.
90s prices were brutal, but not for individual character blisters (compared to today) and the other place where they've really ratcheted up the buy in is with the launch boxes. They are a lot more than what the equivalent was back then. other issue with launch boxes, is they're so much better than the starter sets that they make the starter sets seem like poor value, even though they're not. Also, the books are more expensive now, and there's more of them, and they come out a lot quicker. Plus, there's other stuff you didn't used to need like game aides - faction cards etc. I think the hectic pace of releases makes the hobby seem more expensive too, because you're seeing stuff you want all the time. in the 90s most factions would be lucky to get a couple models every 2 years, and a book every 5 or something so there was a lot more time to save up. Even then I couldn't afford even 10% of what I wanted
There are affordable on ramps and then there are a ton of traps/pitfalls that are just not remotely worth the money (things like the Eldar Warlock kit). I guess how well prepared Timmy and his dad are will factor into it a bunch - oftentimes dad was in the hobby when younger and is now reconnecting.
My frustration is that GW doesn’t include what you need in some boxed sets to field a unit for the rules they made. Or silly sales gimmicks like making a unit a unit of 3 but only selling 2 in a box. Throw your customers a bone instead of boning your customers. Love the content, love from western Canada!
Objectively, the hobby is expensive. But the way things are at the moment, what isn't expensive? Down under, video games are up to 110, and even something like LEGOs are around +50 for an average set. Miniature gaming is not really so bad now. You can put together a MESBG army for ~300, and spend another 200 on rules if you wanted the books, so 500 over the course of 6 months or so (birthdays, pocket money, Christmas) is not so crazy when a game console with 2 games is almost double that. Its always going to look more expensive when you want more than you need to initially play.
I discovered GW in my late teens, around 1999, after wandering into one of their stores at my local mall. I recall my absolute sticker shock at seeing the 3rd Ed. Space Marine Tactical Squad at around $20US, which was about double what a entry level model kit, or Gunpla (which were fairly ubiquitous at big box retail and toy stores at the time) for what seemed like an equivalent amount of plastic, if not less. Even the metal blisters were about the same price as an action figure or small Lego set. My only income back then was money scrounged from birthdays, Christmas, and the odd lawnmowing. I walked out thinking of it as a shop of neat little curios, but far too expensive for me to pursue as a hobby. The redshirt gave me a free booklet before I left...
I really think the biggest issue is all the secondary costs to get started. First army isn't the issue but needing: clippers, knives, glue, primer, and paint/basing. First models I built were Gundam kits which needed no tools paints etc.
The thing is when you put any young people with the predicament of getting an army or basically or basically more games than he has ever seen is not hard to see what they would choose, i had friends that where interested in warhammer but at the step prices they just couldnt justify it
It takes me months to paint a single squad. By that metric, the return on investment is pretty good! Lol. Skirmish is where it's at for budget minded hobbyists.
I got into 40k in Rogue Trader and then played a ton of 2nd Edition and it was way, way harder to get into back then. It was harder to find any information about the hobby because there was no internet and there were a lot fewer stores so it was harder to even know what you needed to get. I remember finding a bunch of RT era books in a store and being really interested but having no idea of what books you even need, what were all these things? If you didn't know someone who knew, how did you find that out? Once you knew, there were fewer options on starter sets and scaling up was complicated (mostly blister packs and they weren't cheap). It was hard to even find places that stocked all this stuff. It was rough. Nowadays you can buy a starter kit for most games (and you can find it anywhere) and that'd get you most of the way there, and there's a lot more information about how to build out and learn to paint and what you want to get, and things are packaged in a way that are easier to pick up and build out. The pricing I think is easier but the information and support around it is so much better. Night and day. Plus now there are people like me who did it the hard way when we were kids, who are bringing our kids and our friend's kids into the hobby (not buying everything but at least giving them direction and hobby guidance and sharing their enthusiasm). I didn't have anyone like that when I was a kid. Also the global penetration of D&D and magic are supporting elements here. It's easier to get into tabletop games when all their friends are playing D&D, and Warhammer isn't this weird outlier thing.
I think a bit of a hidden cost is the actual stuff to hobby with, the level of hobby skills has gone up massively, and of 40k content I think the biggest channels are influencers who will often shill hobby products. Even if they tell you that you can paint well with any product, and you don't need a fancy brush, you'll watch them put down their volumetrics with a .2 400$ airbrush, then break out their artist grade fluorescent paints to create ultra saturated glow effects, then swap to a 30$ size 00 kolinsky for texturing a belt buckle or whatever. That stuff adds up fast, and hobby paint ranges are designed to sell your mountains of redundant colors. Also I think one of the difficulties of building an army for kids and teens is that the rules churn quite quickly and if they are online consuming 40k content, it can be quite discouraging to see a bunch of guys in sports jerseys declare that because your plasma inceptors went from 110 to 130 points their a no longer S tier, but C tier. This is compounded by GW shuffling quite a lot of stuff into legends these days, which means an army collecting project that takes a few years is almost certainly out of date by the time you finish it. This is even worse if you come in mid edition, you might pick a faction, work on some stuff, only for an errata to suddenly change your list to where you're over or under your 2,000 point goal. And then your codex comes out and suddenly it's different again etc... As an adult most of that stuff doesn't matter because you just collect enough stuff that any rules changes you just swap some pieces. But when you're a kid I think it's pretty rough to paint a squad over a few weekends, and then something happens where maybe you have to shelf them for a while. Especially beacuse at that point you lack the experience to know that things kind of just rotate and eventually what's bad will be good and vice versa. In older editions I think kids could often get around this stuff by loading characters with gear to plug gaps, or just make point thresholds.
From the perspective of NZ and Australia. entry costs to GW have moved WAY faster than inflation in the time I've been in the hobby. From being based on real exchange rates to GW's very special made up exchange rates. From being able to buy a few blisters at $8-10 and start a simple game to the basic squad box being $105 for 10 intercessors (and the rest priced around that). The starter sets are afforably priced at around $160 for the christmas/birthday gift range, but the best entry points for young people here are the Hachette partworks mags. Kids also have a much lower barrier to playing with video games than minis gaming outside of the push-fit games, though you can be playing Fortnite or Apex or Genshin even if you don't have a friend available to play warhammer with. The haircut people? Affluent people gonna be affluent and do affluent things. Sounds like you're in a good area for a hobby store. :)
Theres a small 40k club at the high school nearby. I think its 3 16yr olds and a couple of children around 12. Its nice to see and they are super into it
I’ve always thought that Warhammer is objectively a cheap hobby, what other hobby can I buy something in the 80’s and it’s still usable 40 years later. The value per minute on models is huge. Now sure, compare Warhammer to other model companies and it’s expensive but there’s also more of a guarantee that the game will exist in decades to come
I appreciate your level headed “average guy” approach. Not sensational but respectful of people’s opinions. I was flamed to death in comments bc I didn’t think the prices were bad. I can spend 2 hours several times a week and it still takes several weeks to complete a combat patrol. And thats honestly a lot more than average. That doesn’t even include actual playing the game which is technically infinitely potential. Value proposition and Warhammer discussed logically in a YT video is crazy rare! Its always bash or over hype - little in between
The biggest changes for me (in the EU) is the lack of being able to cherry pick minis, which was way more approachable. Want a MESBG character on mount, it’s available from the local shop for 10€ (2005/2007). Now if I wanted the same mini it’ll come in a bundle with a few others for 40€ and it isn’t ever available in the shop. As for Fantasy/Aos I think it’s much the same where prices aren’t too dissimilar, but it’s getting harder to buy less and what you actually want for a good price. It’s always a thing of should just wait and buy the discount box (start collecting, vanguard, spearhead). One thing I wish was more widespread is things like the stormbringer, mortal realms, conquest, combat patrol magazines. Those are great! Those are actually great discounts for people staring out compared to anything else. (Issues with characters or terrain specifically where you can get them for 10€ instead of GW’s 30/40€ which is not approachable for someone just wanting to try it.
Being a brick and mortar in the age of digital has to be an incredibly hard thing to accomplish. I think for me one of the things stores could do better with is advertising that reflects the "window shopping" experience if the old days. Highlighting certain products and explain a little about what they are. Advertising the starter sets that exist, etc. My local shops do basically none of that and the failure rate is obscenely high. Like they expect to exist on the idea the "hobby is cool" without any additional work/thought to it.
Yes. It was too expensive for me as a kid in the 2000s, and it seems worse now. I only buy the discount boxes at the store, the rest I get new on sprue secondhand because I can't justify the price of the individual units. If I were to introduce someone today, I would go for Mantic, Stargrave, Frostgrave or something similar, especially for playing at home. But Warhammer is cool and I do enjoy my Space Marines and Genestealer Cults now as a 31-year-old. PS. It should be noted that the FLGS next to the GW shop here is part of a massive chain of stores selling comics, merch, board games and so on, so I'm not hurting a small or fragile business by being somewhat patient and thrifty. I think the comparison with consoles and so on is valid, except for the fact that so many boxes are priced based on their perceived value in regards to rules that change all the time. I primarily play One Page Rules instead, so seeing certain units priced exclusively because they might be good in-game can be quite frustrating, but that would still apply if I were meta-chasing, I think.
Yes. I’ll skip the dissertation about GW prices and inflation… you just don’t see 13-18 yo in the game stores that much anymore. They were the most common demographic in the shop when I started 20+ years ago.
That's why GW has 5 skirmish games. If people don't want an army they can play Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Warcry, Kill Team, and Underworlds. There is also Spearhead and Combat Patrol.
I played warhammer in the late 80's early 90's... now we're buying plastic and we get more toys for our money. However, GW is deprecating model rules much quicker, so.. there's a sunk cost fallacy
The hobby in general is cheap, paints/brushes/basing material right now are the best and most affordable they have ever been. The sets from certain companys are just way out of line. Look at wargames atlantic or vixtrix, both produce excellent miniatures without costing an arm and a leg. A few years ago i got a KV-2 (ww2 russian tank) from warlord games, it came with 8 troopers for 30 euros. Pretty much blew my mind. If one would add 10-20 bucks for some command set, you would end up with a big versatile tank (you could build it as kv1 too)and 12 troopers, that is pretty much the old start collecting astra militarum box for half the price.
The first box I got was a box called space marine assault from 2003, came with 5 2nd ed marines 8 genestealers and some paints. I think it was about $20 when I got it.
Apart from GW, nowadays people also get into miniatures via boardgames and D&D, at least in the versions of both that use miniatures. Of course the number becoming full hobbyists (ie doing the building, painting and gaming) is limited, but it does seem to happen more frequently than back in the 90s.
Just starting your video now, so I wanted to comment before hearing your points of view. I have been playing Warhammer since the end of 2nd edition when 3rd was just coming out - back then, the Warhammer stores were FULL of younger people (12-18 year olds), now with the rising cost of the hobby and the economy in the shape it is in, when I go into gaming stores NOW, most people are 30+ years old. This tells me that GW is pricing themselves out of the hobby. Kids would rather drop $65 on a video game that they will play online with their friends for hundreds of hours, than try to get hundreds of dollars to buy minis that they need to build, paint, learn rules for, find players for, etc. I really think that companies (cough GW cough) should make intro sets MUCH MORE AFFORDABLE and appealing to younger kids. Allow people to collect and build basic armies for much less. Keep the higher prices for vehicles, special characters, larger units - if people get into the game and enjoy it for a low price (and are able to field a full army of basic units for let's say $100), they WILL buy more and more people will get into the hobby. Also keep ALL of the basic units in colored plastic, not just grey - I doubt it costs any more to color the plastic, and it not only makes starter armies look better, but it let's new players and younger players feel better about their armies. All Space Marine minis should be in blue plastic, all Chaos in olive plastic, all Demons in red plastic, etc, etc. ok, on to listen to you video - Happy and Safe Thanksgiving to everyone.
One of the issues is that the culture around the games have drastically changed. People are heavily informed about competitive meta and if they are not playing tournament matchplay style, then they are playing a lite version of it. The games themselves have been catered towards this mindset. So you cannot build and play as you acquire your army and it feels right. Balance is now king and people overworry about it.
What a lot of people do not get is that the perceived Value must be over a certain threshold. This Hobby is enticing because it "feels" valuable, it is a luxury hobby, it is premium and it needs to be that to stay successful. Hence even if GW would slash the prices or not raise them for several years, the hobby at some point would be perceived as cheap plastic toys, instead of an artistic endeavor. And yes at the end of the day it is plastic toys, but they are not perceived as that, they are perceived as a grown up, expensive, valuable collection, and that makes it approachable. We could all paint plastic buckets of army men and play with those. But do you want to be seen or associated with that? (rhetoric question) No you want to be seen as the sophisticated armchair general and artist. Also as you yourself know, there is much less money in the hobby than people perceive, its all the marketing, design, sales, logistic etc behind it that adds up to the costs (and shareholders want a return on their investment as well!) GW nor any of their competitors are a charity, they need to earn money and not only break even at that. Also GW treats their employees a t least here in Europe and Uk quite well, they did not let anyone go during the pandemic, they kept paying everybody, and they paid back all the government help they got pretty much immediately. I kind of like that. Also they are moving at least here in tiny steps to a more environmental approach (in Uk and NI you can return old sprues (and minis) now to the store to be recycled. And yes plastic is cheap but the labour and the infrastructure necessary to have these kits, this whole industry surrounding it etc is not. Also if GW would slash the prices a lot of the smaller more boutique studios and companies who are just scraping by now already just barely would have to lowers thierts as well to compete with them. Lots of people forget that. I do 3D print a lot of stuff myself, and in case of OOP or Forgeworld (just because the quality for the price is just abysmal) I do say go buy 3rd party if you want to, but the whole Printer goes brr bro crowd is just annoying. Yes you can print whole armies and games, but with whom and where are you going to play? Clubs are most often associated with Stores, Stores do not want people advertising low - zero cost alternative (its not, but its advertised as that) and they need to keep the lights on. Even if you find a club which allows fully printed armies, a lot of people do not want to paly against them, as they feel this devalues their effort time and sunken cost. If you spend 1000-2000 Monies on an army you do not want to play against someone who tells you you're a sucker and he printed his stuff for 40 bucks and slapped some inks on it. (neither attitude is right, but humans psychology works this way...) Any kind of tournaments and such falls to the wayside as well I'd actually be interested how you see 3D printing? Whole armies vs bits, vs bases vs terrain? Do you allow any in your store, have you run into the 3d printer goes brr Bros? How wo or would you deal with someone like that? Long text again ^^ Thanks for the insights and videos btw, it is very interesting to see this even if your situation is quite a bit different from what we have here in Europe. Kind regards from Ireland :)
I started with Rogue Trader, and the prices now seem more unreasonable not from a box of models point, but that almost everyone looks at 2000 points as the standard game size. Buying an elite army with high pointed models will get you to a "standard 2000 points" a lot easier than a horde army where models can be $1 per point, and that's not looking a game like Horus Heresy where a single 12 point Grey Slayer costs $22(AUD) plus. As for pricing, it has changed as GW now trades in multiple currencies, you used to only be able to purchase them in British Pounds, when looking at an box/blister pack you wanted to buy the prices would fluctuate daily, the final price in store would be based on what day the local hobby store placed their order, then again I'm in Australia and we get inflated prices direct from GW now, as you will know we can't purchase outside our sales region.
As someone new to the hobby I think the problem I find is that it feels really strange that cost is not necessarily tied to points. I’ve started with Custodes, and the fact that a box of 5 sisters of silence is $60 is nuts to me. They’re the cheapest unit in the army, and while I personally love their lore, a lot of Custodes players take them because they have to. They get taken because we need cheap objective holders and we expect them to die off relatively quickly if we put them anywhere near the front of the battle. It’s strange that they’re so highly priced for something that’s worth so little points wise and that we expect to die so quickly.
The game was allways expensive i started 1998, and got a White Dwarf thought awsome, i want a undead army, i thought my mother would buy me a army, till she toled me a box of 8 Skellies costs the same like a big revel model.... game was allways expensive....
90’s prices were wild. For almost a decade I only ever got to buy a box every few months, with a windfall of a unit or two at Christmas. Especially all metal units - you’d get 5 blister packs to make a unit of 15 Black Guard and that was your entire Christmas. I think another factor is the general acceptance of hobbies now - back then they were even more niche and miniatures was considered extremely odd, at least in my own experience. So you not only had niche luxury items, but a stigma to overcome. I think prices have climbed steadily but are far less than they could be in comparison to when I started. It would take me more than one entire shift as a teenager working to afford one box of plastic models, while now even minimum wage allows for some Warhammer action after a Saturday of work.
@@jordancameron3584 I think the big difference is that with those handful of models you could still play fun games, the scale and buy it was so much smaller. Now if you walk into a store with a grab bag collection of 750pts it’s hard to convince anyone to play with you.
@@Dram1984I disagree, because playing games of Warhammer often meant 1000pts+ back in the 90’s. It was often extremely difficult to find anyone willing to play an ad hoc army, at least where I was. Combat Patrol and especially Spearhead is a lot easier to enter and easy to find games for. Especially with the new starters. We just have to remember that each of us experiences different things too though, because I’m basing this off my experiences, and my own career in the industry. But where you live and hobby could be very different.
@@jordancameron3584 maybe we’re talking about different eras (early vs late 90’s). Remember that the two tactical squads in the 2e starter box plus a character and some wargear got you a 1000pt army. The scale was so much more approachable. I knew a ton of people whose army was basically those two squads + Dante/Ragnar/etc… and they’re slowly expand over time. I do agree with you about combat patrol and while I have some quibbles with it (mainly the insistence that they all cost the same which locks GW into some corners) it’s a great entry point for the most part. Hopefully they keep polishing the format and make it even better in 11th.
I suppose it all boils down to return on investment. Assuming you get an Xbox or PlayStation that is bundled with a game or two, what is the capital outlay for that versus how many hours of fun you get out of it before you want to make an additional purchase, like an additional game. Assuming you can walk out of a store with a $168 USD combat patrol and get a Year's worth of hobby out of it in terms of building and painting and playing, then it's a good deal. But if you walk out of a store with a $60 box of space marine intercessors and consider that you're going to have to spend that 9 more times until you have a "proper army" to play at 2000 points (ignoring the fact that you can play at smaller point values along the way)... It may end up as the same cost as the Xbox bundle, but you're not necessarily getting a full Year's worth of value out of it from day one the same way. Using Ash's "Christmas morning" criteria, an Xbox you can have set up in minutes and be playing, but for 40K, only something like one of the starter sets fits the criteria and only if you're okay with one of those two factions.
At the end of the day whatever the price of a starter for 40K seems irrelevant. It's a loss leader so it kind of doesn't count in terms of the cost of getting into the game. There are no starter boxes for Xboxes or PlayStations. I really don't remember the pricing at all, I was aware of 40K when tyranids, dreadnoughts, cadians were all pewter. Didn't make a purchase until I got a dark angel Battle Force. Soon after, Tau came out, got like $300 worth of product for $100 because a local player bought into it heavily and then hated the shooting army and sold it to me cheap.
Growing up in the 90s my biggest problem is probably the emergence of the internet and integration into our lives. Makes it too easy to compare everything. Cost, value, skill, and the inevitable meta chasing. Was easier to stay in my little bubble back then. Years of knowledge can be found in minutes now. Shortcuts whole segments of the journey. Like playing a game now following a progression guide. All about max efficiency end game but you ignore the journey on the way.
I started in the cheaper era in 6th Ed fantasy, which I think that was the peak for affordability. Price here in nz has overshot inflation by quite a bit, and due to all starts even fantasy having an low model count elite army they struggle to compare to the older starters.
I find there is a shock in beginning particularly with GW products. And i think it connects to your point about those cheaper starter sets its this, if you can buy a starter set with tye beginnings of two armies and rules and such it works out great, but the shock comes when you have another $130 and you go to expand those armies and realize if you walk out with 2 unit boxes your lucky. Thats what my friends have discovered and has led them to Mantic games because of it. Firefight and Kings of War are picking up steam.
Probably depends on how parents feel, unless the kid has a part time job that gives enough to buy. I'd say later teens would be more likely to start than little timmies.
I think there are pretty good ways into the hobby not that are pretty cheap. Stuff like Underworlds is great, the starter Kill Team box is good, etc. I do feel like there are far few "I have a few bucks so I'll spend a few bucks" things, now. When I was a kid in the 80s/90s I could just get a cheap blister pack of something, or a 5 pound box of monopose models. I could do SOMETHING.
I started in the LotR boom in the 2000s and it wasn't cheap. The difference was it took me forever to get it all painted. 😂 The other part of it is that folk who talk about cost are the ones running 6 armies in one game, 3 armies in another. That's ultimately why it's so expensive. There is no FOMO if you don't need to buy the latest toys for all the games/ factions you DON'T own.
They want new players to buy things they can't afford for a game they may not end up playing. All the while pushing away old players who can afford it and are willing to keep playing. Makes no sense.
The store definitly lack the the 10$ buy option. Starting with 60-100$ even without paints , glue is too much. Plus people get more info. 2-3 squads and 1-3 vehicles was the army to get when, l started . Now it is 1/4th of an army.
Even the 3D printing market is on the same level, when you think all you really need to have to just print your first miniatures (printer, resin, files, electricity, all the chemical products you need to clean / cure, a room dedicated to the production, and so on). That's why I never took seriously all this "GW is too expensive as a Hobby" crowd...it's always hiding advertisement for another expensive hobby behind.
Yes and yes there is no way a young kid will start this unless their Dad already plays or their family considers dropping this much money a good idea. Not to mention they’d need lots of dedication to make and paint them.
Considering GW price increases have always been several % higher than inflation i KNOW it's more expensive. And now, with high interest rates, higher cost of neccessary things like food and electricity cutting out plastic minis becomes a more and more common thing. Hobby budget is always: how much is left after all the other things are paid for? And right now, that's less, and the prices are higher. Also: having more in the box doesn't really help the entryprice. It might be a better product, it might be better for the consumers who know they want this but for a new person it just makes it harder to want to buy in order to test out the hobby.
GW is not inexpensive but is also not unattainable. I love the value per hour that GW products represent in terms of hobby enjoyment. The value is really high especially once you’ve got all your basic tools, supplies and paints.
There's a difference between Little Timmy paying for his hobby with his allowance and paper route money and Timmy's parents paying for his hobby. The younger Timmy is, the more it is the latter -- and that's the demographic GW is targeting IMHO. I paid for my hobby with my own money back in late 80's and early 90's. I loved the old shirtbox games like Space Hulk, Adeptus Titanicus and Dark Future because the box really had everything you needed for a game, not just a starter force. And they only cost the same as a handful of blisters... I never could afford the "full army" games back then (even with the smaller armies of yesterday)... almost no one here did, which is probably why they didn't really take off until mid 90's when more plastic sets became available. P.S. And just get the primer and PVA glue from the hardware store for heaven's sake...
I imagine it is. They charge so much money for everything and then they make the older models obsolete - which makes no sense to me but apparently discontinuing older models and making them useless as a game feature “helps” the game somehow….
I think the removal of the blister packs might have raised the bar for entry. When I started the hobby back in the 90s I would just buy a blister a week, and I would a plastic regiment box every now and then.
I used to do the same, and this is a good point. There are no pocket money/allowance purchases these days, as "cheap" models are wrapped up in big ticket items. It is very difficult to spend 5-15 dollarydoos on something these days, you need to spend 100+ at a time to access models are relatively priced at 5. I guess it is effective marketing for adults with disposable income, but it isn't compatible for kids.
Man I miss going into the store and browsing the blisters. Wish they would return to that model.
Blister heroes can be over 30 dollars. Reaper makes blisters so does gw still
Adjusting for inflation the prices of GW stuff are the same prices or cheaper than they were when I started in like '99, but wages in the UK, Canada, and the US, adjusted for inflation, have gone down since '99.
Exactly. The cost of living crisis is real - it's just not exactly toy soldiers fault lol
Last time I saw a Timmy (early teens) in the store was last year. Came in, agonized over a Combat Patrol for an hour because he'd been saving for the better part of a year, and left. No glue, no snips, no paints, no rulebooks. He probably got home and had the worst experience because nobody prepared him for "the rest of the owl." I'd be amazed if he's still in the hobby.
I guarantee you the Timmy's of today don't need rulebooks, at least. They're going to be reading about it online and then just getting funneled to Wahapedia.
In order to feed the algorithm…I wanna repeat, you guys offer a rather grounded view of GW…it’s cool.
So I started about the same time as you guys in the 90’s…back in the day, I temper dreaming about slapping down a credit card and by a huge amount at once, while I spent the best part of a year saving up to buy a 20 big savage orc unit one blister at a time (I did just that when I got into 40k a bought all the Tallarn I wanted. And before that, purchasing my dream savage Orc army all at once (40 savage orcs, 10 savage orc boar boys, 6 trolls, 10 spider riders , an Arachnarock & a smattering of savage orc characters…Im lucky I can)
Oh the 90's... People think warhammer is pricey now lol
Yeah I enjoy their discussions and views on things GW related.
Re: hobbies & the walking statement; George Carlin had a joke in one of his sets that went something like, "I don't have hobbies, I have interests. Hobbies cost money."
Back in the mid/late 90s the hobbystore was a wild mix of childen and adult customers. Who would spend their time there. Ofc the children couldnt afford the biggest boxes, but they could afford blisters and even regiment boxes on a regular basis. Playing 1500-2000p Warhammer Fantasy was no impossible thing to aim for. It could be done, although it took discipline and time.
Since the great flu I have not seen a single child buying warhammer in our flgs ( some buy cardgames ofc ).
Now I know that this only presents anecdotal evidence, but it might be the same in other stores around the globe.
It was an obscene amount of money for entry even back in the 80s to explain to a parent. I fully support proxy with 3d printing. Gw does not deserve any more money.
I almost never encounter little Timmy’s. It’s just his dad buying models to spend time with him 😅 always focus on the dads
🤔💬. *_"And:_* The *Less 💰 & Time el*earning* that Money Dad needs to spend, the *_More_* he can spend on Little Timmy ❤️ (Brrrr,,,,,,, 💥 🖨️)
Look I would never, ever try to justify my purchases by saying to myself “well we can play this on Saturday morning after the kids get up”
I talk a lot with dads complaining about their little Timmy not spending enough time hobbying with them. ^^
@@FitzTheMarinerI don’t have kids but I do have a girlfriend that I’ve lived with for 6 years now and finding ways to spend face to face quality time where we’re talking and not on screens is difficult. We’re Gen Z and grew up with ubiquitous internet access and so most of our hobbies, including shared ones, revolve around screens. Almost all of my friends’ and same generation family members’ main hobbies are online, or at least involve a screen. It can be hard to find mutual interests away from screens, though we share a bunch of online ones. Magic the Gathering is a fun and expressive hobby I got her into that we share now. It gives us time to sit and talk and have a face to face human connection without online distractions. There are many other hobbies that can achieve this too: building legos, assembling models, building & painting miniatures, ball sports, gardening, martial arts, drawing, music, board games, and others. Many hobbies exist, all of which are money pits, if it lets a father spend quality time with his children then the purchase is inherently justified.
I don’t blame Gen X or Millennial or older Gen Z dads at all for wanting to use this type of hobby to spend time with their kids. Not only are American parents so busy with work but their kids are addicted to something online. I’m blessed to be so close with my pops, who is nearly 70, despite the huge generational gap. I’m not sure I’ve ever heard anyone near my age or younger tell me they have a very close relationship with their dad like me.
A big part of my and my pops being so close is that we’d share mutual hobbies often, or he’d take an interest in mine. When I was at his house for the week, we’d watch movies several nights and usually discuss it throughout. A lot of times he’d sit on the recliner and watch me play video games, commenting on stuff in the game or asking me questions. Whenever we go on road trips he shows me music from his era. Now that I’m a man I listen to it on my own and show him classics I discovered or ones he might’ve forgotten.
Any financial cost is nothing compared to a strong bond between father and son. My dad also taught me this, and I believe him.
@@FitzTheMariner I don’t have kids but I do have a girlfriend that I’ve lived with for 6 years now and finding ways to spend face to face quality time where we’re talking and not on screens is difficult. We’re Gen Z and grew up with ubiquitous internet access and so most of our hobbies, including shared ones, revolve around screens. Almost all of my friends’ and same generation family members’ main hobbies are online, or at least involve a screen. It can be hard to find mutual interests away from screens, though we share a bunch of online ones. Magic the Gathering is a fun and expressive hobby I got her into that we share now. It gives us time to sit and talk and have a face to face human connection without online distractions. There are many other hobbies that can achieve this too: building legos, assembling models, building & painting miniatures, ball sports, gardening, martial arts, drawing, music, board games, and others. Many hobbies exist, all of which are money pits, if it lets a father spend quality time with his children then the purchase is inherently justified.
I don’t blame Gen X or Millennial or older Gen Z dads at all for wanting to use this type of hobby to spend time with their kids. Not only are American parents so busy with work but their kids are addicted to something online. I’m blessed to be so close with my pops, who is nearly 70, despite the huge generational gap. I’m not sure I’ve ever heard anyone near my age or younger tell me they have a very close relationship with their dad like me.
A big part of my and my pops being so close is that we’d share mutual hobbies often, or he’d take an interest in mine. When I was at his house for the week, we’d watch movies several nights and usually discuss it throughout. A lot of times he’d sit on the recliner and watch me play video games, commenting on stuff in the game or asking me questions. Whenever we go on road trips he shows me music from his era. Now that I’m a man I listen to it on my own and show him classics I discovered or ones he might’ve forgotten.
Any financial cost is nothing compared to a strong bond between father and son. My dad also taught me this, and I took it to heart
I think obviously GWs prices are a problem but I think there’s couple more that are big culprits:
1) the game is so normalized for 2000pts even if it’s not true that you need that many models to play it “feels” like you “need” that many to play “real games”. This puts people off. It’s not all GWs fault, it’s also the community, UA-camrs etc…
2) the rules just don’t work well at lower points. 500pt games require a lot of list restrictions and whatnot that mean it’s hard for new players to have fun games at low points. Combat Patrol and Boarding actions are both half decent solutions at solving this problem but I feel like they both fail in different ways (Combat patrol is too restrictive and Boarding Actions is both expensive and also restrictive (no vehicles, etc…)
It’s hard for a new player to just buy a box, paint it and play and then add to it with another box every couple of months or something. Which is how it was when I got into it (mid 90’s). I didn’t have a full 2000pt army until well into 3rd edition and never felt that I wasn’t playing real 40k. Games were easy and fun at 500pts, 750, 1k, etc…
I'm an adult (40), who plays other miniature war games, and this has been it for me. I see a combat patrol box, and think, "thats a reasonable army" - and I could see an army being twice that size. But the reality is most 2000pt armies are 3-5 times that size. And I have heard from friends that the game doesn't really balance or play well at under 1000, so 2k is the norm. But 2k seems just too much. Too much to set up, to cart around to the hobby store, to move around to in the game, more models than I want, more models than I will find interesting in any army or lots of redundancy. Also, seems like games take WAAAYY too long. And I'm aware that some armies are more swarm or less swarm. But the scale of the game is a huge put off for me.
@ model inflation is crazy. I also like to remind people that in 2e a basic tactical squad of marines was 300pts before any wargear and it was easy to get it up to 400pts. 2 squads (from the starter box) and a character is an easy 1000pt army. Add another vehicle/squad/character or two and you have a “full” 1500pt army.
@@Dram1984 I think this is the main problem tbh. Prices have increased beyond inflation but that isnt the main issue, the killer is needing 2-3 times as much shit before you have a workable army, and the rules only really being "balanced" for games of 2000pts.
I started playing and painting in mid 90s. And as you have just reminded us, it was a matter of adding very slowly one piece to another. Over time, whenever you could, or your parents, afford the expense. We may sound like old farts here, however what I see with kids and young adults is that they strive to purchase everything at once. At that point is expensive. But in my humble opinion that is not what a hobby is or meant to be: one tile at the time, and you will appreciate what you are accomplishing. It is very likely that this is the exact same criticism our parents used to shout at us when we were kids. The vicious and eternal circle is always going around. Sure. Perhaps those youngsters who are complaining today will be parents one day in the future, and they wil repeat word for word what we are saying in 2024. Patience, it is all about patience, trusting your commitment will last as long as possible.
At my club there is increasing appetite for smaller points games. Combat patrol and BA leagues have been popular. And more people are choosing 1000pt or 1500pt games. Even looking at redhammer list restrictions for 1000pts to try to balance it. It's just too difficult to get through a 2000pt game in an evening and needing that many units is a huge barrier to newer players
90s prices were brutal. I was the little timmy.
Yeah 40k, in my case, was always expensive. I discovered WH in the late 80s and played into the mid 90's.
I wasn't able to afford actually trying to buy a proper army until the end of that because I then had real summer jobs. Cleaning the capital's tube system off graffitti using carcinogenic cleaning products sprayed with high pressure water to spread that stuff everywhere. Yum.
I bought 8 Skaven for 20 Plastic bucks back in the 90s!
@@EarlofChutney yeah even in the 90’s “GW is too expensive” was a common talking point.
I remember talking people into playing back in 97-99. "$100 will get you started. That'll get you two tactical squads, a tank , and a few characters. You'll just need glue and paint."
@@kenupton4084 The Glue and the Paint was also an Investment back in the Days... and the Primer... man what a hobby.
They used to sell boxes of 5 marines and boxes of singular bikes etc. As a kid thats how I bought alot of my models because I couldn't afford the big boxes until I got abit older.
I think these are the products that have vanished. Buying a unit in parts a blister at a time was much more viable than trying to save for one of the modern boxes.
Warhammer as a hobby was never really cheap to get into but it was an easier entry/build up. I was lucky and started with DnD back in the day and transitioned over to Fantasy then 40k, so I could go from a single mini, dice set and a rule book to picking up more blisters and troop boxes. The big factor was that if I picked up some armies books they didn't change for years. It was a slow build up of collecting the army with an occasional new unit created or an updated book/edition. Now-a-days how long does an edition or army book last. I remember buying a new codex only for it to be rendered useless 2 months later with a new edition.
Yep, this is the main difference for sure, being able to slowly build a collection from individual purchases. Now doing so will just be so much worse financially makes it not even worth it.
I started my space wolves in 1995 and didn’t have a 2000pt army until well into 3rd and it was normal.
You also didn't need to worry about the meta because there was no competitive scene and no internet to find out what was good. So you just bought what you thought was cool and used that.
On the flip side 40k 2nd edition was crazy unbalanced. Space wolves were nuts! 😂
@@HB2K-h8m it was unbalanced but I feel like community norms kept it in check. Like sure you could take 20 wolf guard terminators with assault cannons but everyone would make fun of you for being “beardy” and not play with you. And if we found something during play that was cheesy we had a laugh about it and then just didn’t play that way anymore.
As an Uncle of a 15yo and 17yo boy. I just 3D printed two 1000pts proxy armies for both of them. Got them a starter paint set. They were very happy. It's probably the least expensive present I ever got them 😅
My first games of WFB were 5th ed. It was my 2nd Gen Slaan in a unit of temple guard vs my buddy's Nagash and 10 wraiths. Whoever drew total power first won. It's always been expensive. We just found a way.
More Timmy lore lets go
I think the idea that the ONLY way to play warhammer is a 2000 point matched play army is where a lot of the idea that “the hobby is too expensive to get into” comes from. When a kid or a teen looks around online at batreps or looks up tournament requirements, and they price that out then it becomes really daunting to them.
I think one thing that helped me get started (2003 I think with battle for Macragge) is people were willing to play small games with me each weekend when I went to the hobby store as my army grew.
The comment I have on price point is I remember blister packs were on average $10, and a unit was $30-$40. Atleast for me, that meant I could usually get a blister packs once a week or so with pocket change, and I could get a set every month or two, based on getting paid for odd jobs etc. I think that after getting a starter box, that rate of growth for my army was kind of perfect.
As a gamer of some 30+ years I feel that the goals have changed, I spent most of my teens in GW stores, games were 1k points, generally achievable numbers of models. Now its always 2k games for 40k/aos and with 10th ed they've really pushed the points costs down so armies are massive and even for a seasoned and fast painter like me it's quite a mountain to climb.
So yes it's an expensive hobby but so are all hobbies, I always use the cinema as my go to example, in the UK a cinema trip is usually about £20 a person for 2 hours of entertainment. A box of toy soldiers at £40 gives far more than 4 hours of entertainment even if they are removed from the game after 10 years.
I really feel like people don’t understand just how inflated the model count has gotten.
The 2e box came with two Tactical squads of marines that cost 716pts. Buy a character model or two and you have a thousand point army. Add a vehicle and another squad/character etc… and you have 2000pts.
3rd bumped the model count and it’s just gone bananas since.
I remember back in the late 90s a friend tried to get me into 40k / Mordheim, but it was too expensive for me even back then. I didn't start playing until I had a steady job in the late 2000s. Even then I was very particular with what I bought.
I bought my son a lot of 40k over the past few years and brought out my old collection. The one good thing with 40k is the minis can be used for years/decades and you can always find someone to play.
Yeah, “GW is too expensive!” was a meme in the mid-90’s when I started.
It all depends on how you want to interact with the hobby. GW’s book store boxes are great values to introduce a kid to building models, clipping, gluing and painting. Introducing them to a small measure of the game that’s more digestible before growing from there. Like blitz bowl and growing into blood bowl, or blade born and advancing into Warcry.
Another point that I think bears mentioning is way back when there was less knowledge available and you learned about things a lot slower so buying a kit here and there was normal and affordable for parents. We might get a WD or a catalogue and look at if for months and think about this unit or that. If I was a kid now I’d be bringing an entire list to my parents I pulled off the internet because that’s what I “need” to play and they would have immediately shut it down, lol.
Back in the late 90s-early 2000s I remember my buddy and I used to rationalize any purchase we would make, be it a soda, or a pack of cards, based on this motto “that’s like half the price of a pot of paint!” 😂 We were brutally aware of how expensive the hobby was, and it was a big deal when we bought a new blister pack. Never had complete armies, but we had dreams!
I got into WHFB in 1994 and bought the 4th ed Undead Army box for $350CDN, which in Edmonton at the time was one months rent for a nice one bedroom apartment. Warhammer has always been pricey, but so are alot of hobbies, just look at the prices for the good quality electric trains!
As soon as Jay mentioned building up an army with a few blister packs at a time, I thought "but they don't have blister packs anymore".
Used to be able to get a box of the plastic mono pose figures for NZ$20, now you'll be lucky to get even a single mini for under $50.
sooo, i was there in the UK and there is a reason why. the shops organised games, the poor kids were known for causing trouble, not all, but enough that it was off putting for the shop, remember, this was a business using delicate models, keeping the price to a more medium income family guaranteed 2 things, safe handling and a better crowd
"The hobby" for me when I was a little Timmy was just 1 box of marines, or knights etc. I never had enough for starter sets, even in the 90s. We played with 6 minis each, we were happy with it.
I’ll echo what others have stated about model cost versus model count “needed to play”. I remember splitting RTB01 with my brother; we thought the models were cool even though compared to Ral Partha figures GW stuff was expensive. The cost of the miniatures then versus now hasn’t changed that much but I think what has changed is the size of games. The games now are huge compared to 2nd edition. I think that is the real difference between starting Warhammer now versus the early/mid 90s.
@@motorbikekultofspeed1094 bingo. A normal 2e era army was a couple/few squads, a couple characters and a vehicle/dreadnaught etc… at least for everyone but orks
Let me pull up my Grognard Rocking Chair.... I started with the RT book in 1987 and had to play with the paper cutouts in the back until I could buy RT01 !
It's a hobby, not food, so it's relative to what you value spending your time on. Video Games, Guns, Golf, or little plastic men. It all costs, but no one said you had to dump your wallet at the start.
I know someone will say videogames but at some point almost every boy of my generation (mid 40s) had tried to build and paint an Airfix model. Trying Warhammer was like 'Airfix but more fun theme'
I ended up giving away the Necron half of Indomitus box, then later a full Grey Knights army to a family friends teenager. Because the hobby is expensive. I'm in the uk and collecting the Combat Patrol Magazine, which is probably the cheapest way to get a varied set of official models. Always better if you can club together with a friend to split the cost and the forces. It was always said that GW's biggest competitor wasn't other games or hobbies, but McDonalds. The £5 in a kids pocket that could buy something in GW was competing with him meeting his mates and having a crafty meal. Ofcourse inflation and price rises changed that. The days of being able to buy either models in blisters or McDonalds for £5 are a dim and distant memory. Now I feel old.
I just spent $60 for a haircut and beard trim (including tip). When I was a kid it was $5. So a box of Warhammer is the early 80’s equivalent of $5.
When I was slightly younger than today the book came with cut-out tokens at the back of the book in a softcover version. being very poor students we walked down to the post office and copied the sheets and then fought it out on the floor among casette tapes and other terrain. Now that was a good onboarding to the hobby for sure. :D
The Battle at the farm we fought with plastic army men and some pewter orcs and dwarves from those Prince August moulds a few years ealier, don't think the store even had any miniatures yet.
Yes, this whole comment is garbage time but it's fun to be nostalgic every now and then without contributing to the discussion. :D
Thanks for sharing :)
My 12 year old is very into Warhammer after i got back into the hobby during covid and we started 2nd edition kill team together. Any pocket money and gift money goes on marines or video games.
What I am surprised about is that his friend up the road also has a big Tyranids collection and the son of an old school friend of mine is also into the hobby (despite his dad having no interest at all). Seen plenty of kids in the local stores.
It might be different in the UK where GW has a much greater retail presence even if the stores have moved out of the town centres now. Prices are also cheaper here, compared to N America even if our purchasing power is less due to lower wages.
Undoubtedly was easier back in the day, a group of us would go to the mall and browse blister packs and there was no expectation of fielding huge 2000pt armies. Most of my 40k stuff was second hand. A different, pre internet era.
I was just starting to price my new Warhammer items for my new store. I've played since the 90s, but have been very inactive for the last ten years or so. Mainly play Tyranids. Picked up the Redemptor Dreadnought, scanned it into our stock, looked up the MSRP......and I couldn't believe it was $80 USD.
Apparently I was WAY out of the loop on prices.
I started 40K around the beginning of 2nd edition. Back then the hybrid pewter/plastic kits were the norm. I remember a Tactical Squad costing 30USD. When accounting for inflation the current price for a box of Intercessors is very similar. The current pricing on character models is much worse. I got two Blood Angel Captains for 8USD in a blister pack.
The building part is much easier now. All plastic means no supergluing parts to your fingers. Scraping mold lines is so much easier with plastic compared to pewter. Likewise, kit bashing with metal was harder than plastic. The current kits and army lists actively discourage kit bashing now.
Codex prices are rough. 2nd ed Codices were 20USD. Now to play Blood Angels you need the 60USD Space Marine Codex and the 35USD Blood Angel Codex Supplement.
Rules churn: constant updates, points changes and short lifespan for the books/editions make the hobby harder and/or more expensive for everyone (not just Timmy).
To me the rules do not seem friendly for newbs or casual players. Perhaps a more durable rules set for 40K "Lite" would be a welcome change.
As someone getting back into the hobby after about a 10-year lapse, the sticker shock is real. You are also correct that when you look at the actual hours of enjoyment you are going to get out of assembly, painting, and potentially playing games as well, it's an excellent return on investment. Your mileage may vary, depending on what aspects of the hobby you consider enjoyable, and which things are viewed as chores or optional.
I got into the tabletop game and model side of it around mid 6th edition, 2013? I had been reading Warhammer Fantasy and 40k a few years prior to that. I do think recently over the last 2 years the prices have gone up a lot versus what they were when I got into it. For example the price of a tactical squad box, or the first generation Sanguinary Guard or Death Company boxes? I think it's harder to get into as a kid, teen, etc. nowadays. But you make good points when you compare the cost of kids being into console video games versus a GW hobby. Yeah on par, or slightly in favor for GW's offerings. I was always a hardcore buyer. Had Blood Angels, had to end up with a 12k collection. Dark Angels, had 10k, lol. At 53 I think maybe 2 years ago I started realizing that just wasn't the best way to enjoy the hobby. My 40k collection now are Black Templars and I told myself I'll go 6.5k or so tops and that is it. I can always realistically look at that size of collection and not feel overwhelmed when thinking about painting it. In summary I feel prices are higher versus when I got into it even with value of money, etc but versus other popular hobbies it's not too expensive or anything.
90s prices were brutal, but not for individual character blisters (compared to today) and the other place where they've really ratcheted up the buy in is with the launch boxes. They are a lot more than what the equivalent was back then. other issue with launch boxes, is they're so much better than the starter sets that they make the starter sets seem like poor value, even though they're not. Also, the books are more expensive now, and there's more of them, and they come out a lot quicker. Plus, there's other stuff you didn't used to need like game aides - faction cards etc. I think the hectic pace of releases makes the hobby seem more expensive too, because you're seeing stuff you want all the time. in the 90s most factions would be lucky to get a couple models every 2 years, and a book every 5 or something so there was a lot more time to save up. Even then I couldn't afford even 10% of what I wanted
There are affordable on ramps and then there are a ton of traps/pitfalls that are just not remotely worth the money (things like the Eldar Warlock kit). I guess how well prepared Timmy and his dad are will factor into it a bunch - oftentimes dad was in the hobby when younger and is now reconnecting.
My frustration is that GW doesn’t include what you need in some boxed sets to field a unit for the rules they made. Or silly sales gimmicks like making a unit a unit of 3 but only selling 2 in a box. Throw your customers a bone instead of boning your customers. Love the content, love from western Canada!
Objectively, the hobby is expensive. But the way things are at the moment, what isn't expensive? Down under, video games are up to 110, and even something like LEGOs are around +50 for an average set. Miniature gaming is not really so bad now. You can put together a MESBG army for ~300, and spend another 200 on rules if you wanted the books, so 500 over the course of 6 months or so (birthdays, pocket money, Christmas) is not so crazy when a game console with 2 games is almost double that.
Its always going to look more expensive when you want more than you need to initially play.
I discovered GW in my late teens, around 1999, after wandering into one of their stores at my local mall. I recall my absolute sticker shock at seeing the 3rd Ed. Space Marine Tactical Squad at around $20US, which was about double what a entry level model kit, or Gunpla (which were fairly ubiquitous at big box retail and toy stores at the time) for what seemed like an equivalent amount of plastic, if not less. Even the metal blisters were about the same price as an action figure or small Lego set. My only income back then was money scrounged from birthdays, Christmas, and the odd lawnmowing. I walked out thinking of it as a shop of neat little curios, but far too expensive for me to pursue as a hobby. The redshirt gave me a free booklet before I left...
Never ended up with an army because allowance/Christmas'/birthdays from 6-14 weren't enough to afford a full army. So, yes.
The barrier that I see isn’t cost.. it’s the time and effort involved to build the models, paint them and learn the game rules.
Back in the 90’s I could pick up 2 blisters of minis with my allowance. Today it’s $30 or more for a character model
Damn you had a good 90's allowance!
I really think the biggest issue is all the secondary costs to get started. First army isn't the issue but needing: clippers, knives, glue, primer, and paint/basing.
First models I built were Gundam kits which needed no tools paints etc.
Timmy needs to get into the skirmish side instead of a full army. Wish that had been my original entry point.
The thing is when you put any young people with the predicament of getting an army or basically or basically more games than he has ever seen is not hard to see what they would choose, i had friends that where interested in warhammer but at the step prices they just couldnt justify it
It feels more expensive but so is everything these days. Food prices have increased faster than GW prices for example.
It takes me months to paint a single squad. By that metric, the return on investment is pretty good! Lol. Skirmish is where it's at for budget minded hobbyists.
I got into 40k in Rogue Trader and then played a ton of 2nd Edition and it was way, way harder to get into back then. It was harder to find any information about the hobby because there was no internet and there were a lot fewer stores so it was harder to even know what you needed to get. I remember finding a bunch of RT era books in a store and being really interested but having no idea of what books you even need, what were all these things? If you didn't know someone who knew, how did you find that out? Once you knew, there were fewer options on starter sets and scaling up was complicated (mostly blister packs and they weren't cheap). It was hard to even find places that stocked all this stuff. It was rough.
Nowadays you can buy a starter kit for most games (and you can find it anywhere) and that'd get you most of the way there, and there's a lot more information about how to build out and learn to paint and what you want to get, and things are packaged in a way that are easier to pick up and build out. The pricing I think is easier but the information and support around it is so much better. Night and day.
Plus now there are people like me who did it the hard way when we were kids, who are bringing our kids and our friend's kids into the hobby (not buying everything but at least giving them direction and hobby guidance and sharing their enthusiasm). I didn't have anyone like that when I was a kid.
Also the global penetration of D&D and magic are supporting elements here. It's easier to get into tabletop games when all their friends are playing D&D, and Warhammer isn't this weird outlier thing.
I think a bit of a hidden cost is the actual stuff to hobby with, the level of hobby skills has gone up massively, and of 40k content I think the biggest channels are influencers who will often shill hobby products. Even if they tell you that you can paint well with any product, and you don't need a fancy brush, you'll watch them put down their volumetrics with a .2 400$ airbrush, then break out their artist grade fluorescent paints to create ultra saturated glow effects, then swap to a 30$ size 00 kolinsky for texturing a belt buckle or whatever. That stuff adds up fast, and hobby paint ranges are designed to sell your mountains of redundant colors.
Also I think one of the difficulties of building an army for kids and teens is that the rules churn quite quickly and if they are online consuming 40k content, it can be quite discouraging to see a bunch of guys in sports jerseys declare that because your plasma inceptors went from 110 to 130 points their a no longer S tier, but C tier. This is compounded by GW shuffling quite a lot of stuff into legends these days, which means an army collecting project that takes a few years is almost certainly out of date by the time you finish it. This is even worse if you come in mid edition, you might pick a faction, work on some stuff, only for an errata to suddenly change your list to where you're over or under your 2,000 point goal. And then your codex comes out and suddenly it's different again etc...
As an adult most of that stuff doesn't matter because you just collect enough stuff that any rules changes you just swap some pieces. But when you're a kid I think it's pretty rough to paint a squad over a few weekends, and then something happens where maybe you have to shelf them for a while. Especially beacuse at that point you lack the experience to know that things kind of just rotate and eventually what's bad will be good and vice versa. In older editions I think kids could often get around this stuff by loading characters with gear to plug gaps, or just make point thresholds.
From the perspective of NZ and Australia. entry costs to GW have moved WAY faster than inflation in the time I've been in the hobby. From being based on real exchange rates to GW's very special made up exchange rates. From being able to buy a few blisters at $8-10 and start a simple game to the basic squad box being $105 for 10 intercessors (and the rest priced around that).
The starter sets are afforably priced at around $160 for the christmas/birthday gift range, but the best entry points for young people here are the Hachette partworks mags. Kids also have a much lower barrier to playing with video games than minis gaming outside of the push-fit games, though you can be playing Fortnite or Apex or Genshin even if you don't have a friend available to play warhammer with.
The haircut people? Affluent people gonna be affluent and do affluent things. Sounds like you're in a good area for a hobby store. :)
GW's prices make me feel like a kid again!
More Timmy lore, more for the greater Timmyverse
Theres a small 40k club at the high school nearby. I think its 3 16yr olds and a couple of children around 12. Its nice to see and they are super into it
I’ve always thought that Warhammer is objectively a cheap hobby, what other hobby can I buy something in the 80’s and it’s still usable 40 years later. The value per minute on models is huge.
Now sure, compare Warhammer to other model companies and it’s expensive but there’s also more of a guarantee that the game will exist in decades to come
Very true.
I appreciate your level headed “average guy” approach. Not sensational but respectful of people’s opinions. I was flamed to death in comments bc I didn’t think the prices were bad.
I can spend 2 hours several times a week and it still takes several weeks to complete a combat patrol. And thats honestly a lot more than average.
That doesn’t even include actual playing the game which is technically infinitely potential.
Value proposition and Warhammer discussed logically in a YT video is crazy rare!
Its always bash or over hype - little in between
Thanks so much. We think it's important to keep a level head - and also we have literally seen it all in the decades we've been involved!
The models have always been expensive.
The idea you can own them all is new.
The biggest changes for me (in the EU) is the lack of being able to cherry pick minis, which was way more approachable. Want a MESBG character on mount, it’s available from the local shop for 10€ (2005/2007). Now if I wanted the same mini it’ll come in a bundle with a few others for 40€ and it isn’t ever available in the shop. As for Fantasy/Aos I think it’s much the same where prices aren’t too dissimilar, but it’s getting harder to buy less and what you actually want for a good price. It’s always a thing of should just wait and buy the discount box (start collecting, vanguard, spearhead). One thing I wish was more widespread is things like the stormbringer, mortal realms, conquest, combat patrol magazines. Those are great! Those are actually great discounts for people staring out compared to anything else. (Issues with characters or terrain specifically where you can get them for 10€ instead of GW’s 30/40€ which is not approachable for someone just wanting to try it.
Being a brick and mortar in the age of digital has to be an incredibly hard thing to accomplish. I think for me one of the things stores could do better with is advertising that reflects the "window shopping" experience if the old days. Highlighting certain products and explain a little about what they are. Advertising the starter sets that exist, etc. My local shops do basically none of that and the failure rate is obscenely high. Like they expect to exist on the idea the "hobby is cool" without any additional work/thought to it.
Yes. It was too expensive for me as a kid in the 2000s, and it seems worse now. I only buy the discount boxes at the store, the rest I get new on sprue secondhand because I can't justify the price of the individual units. If I were to introduce someone today, I would go for Mantic, Stargrave, Frostgrave or something similar, especially for playing at home. But Warhammer is cool and I do enjoy my Space Marines and Genestealer Cults now as a 31-year-old.
PS. It should be noted that the FLGS next to the GW shop here is part of a massive chain of stores selling comics, merch, board games and so on, so I'm not hurting a small or fragile business by being somewhat patient and thrifty.
I think the comparison with consoles and so on is valid, except for the fact that so many boxes are priced based on their perceived value in regards to rules that change all the time. I primarily play One Page Rules instead, so seeing certain units priced exclusively because they might be good in-game can be quite frustrating, but that would still apply if I were meta-chasing, I think.
Yes. I’ll skip the dissertation about GW prices and inflation… you just don’t see 13-18 yo in the game stores that much anymore. They were the most common demographic in the shop when I started 20+ years ago.
That's why GW has 5 skirmish games. If people don't want an army they can play Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Warcry, Kill Team, and Underworlds. There is also Spearhead and Combat Patrol.
Very true!
I played warhammer in the late 80's early 90's... now we're buying plastic and we get more toys for our money. However, GW is deprecating model rules much quicker, so.. there's a sunk cost fallacy
The hobby in general is cheap, paints/brushes/basing material right now are the best and most affordable they have ever been.
The sets from certain companys are just way out of line.
Look at wargames atlantic or vixtrix, both produce excellent miniatures without costing an arm and a leg.
A few years ago i got a KV-2 (ww2 russian tank) from warlord games, it came with 8 troopers for 30 euros.
Pretty much blew my mind. If one would add 10-20 bucks for some command set, you would end up with a big versatile tank (you could build it as kv1 too)and 12 troopers, that is pretty much the old start collecting astra militarum box for half the price.
The first box I got was a box called space marine assault from 2003, came with 5 2nd ed marines 8 genestealers and some paints. I think it was about $20 when I got it.
Apart from GW, nowadays people also get into miniatures via boardgames and D&D, at least in the versions of both that use miniatures. Of course the number becoming full hobbyists (ie doing the building, painting and gaming) is limited, but it does seem to happen more frequently than back in the 90s.
Just starting your video now, so I wanted to comment before hearing your points of view.
I have been playing Warhammer since the end of 2nd edition when 3rd was just coming out - back then, the Warhammer stores were FULL of younger people (12-18 year olds), now with the rising cost of the hobby and the economy in the shape it is in, when I go into gaming stores NOW, most people are 30+ years old.
This tells me that GW is pricing themselves out of the hobby. Kids would rather drop $65 on a video game that they will play online with their friends for hundreds of hours, than try to get hundreds of dollars to buy minis that they need to build, paint, learn rules for, find players for, etc.
I really think that companies (cough GW cough) should make intro sets MUCH MORE AFFORDABLE and appealing to younger kids. Allow people to collect and build basic armies for much less. Keep the higher prices for vehicles, special characters, larger units - if people get into the game and enjoy it for a low price (and are able to field a full army of basic units for let's say $100), they WILL buy more and more people will get into the hobby.
Also keep ALL of the basic units in colored plastic, not just grey - I doubt it costs any more to color the plastic, and it not only makes starter armies look better, but it let's new players and younger players feel better about their armies. All Space Marine minis should be in blue plastic, all Chaos in olive plastic, all Demons in red plastic, etc, etc.
ok, on to listen to you video - Happy and Safe Thanksgiving to everyone.
One of the issues is that the culture around the games have drastically changed. People are heavily informed about competitive meta and if they are not playing tournament matchplay style, then they are playing a lite version of it. The games themselves have been catered towards this mindset. So you cannot build and play as you acquire your army and it feels right. Balance is now king and people overworry about it.
The price is the price for something you want but don't need.
What a lot of people do not get is that the perceived Value must be over a certain threshold. This Hobby is enticing because it "feels" valuable, it is a luxury hobby, it is premium and it needs to be that to stay successful. Hence even if GW would slash the prices or not raise them for several years, the hobby at some point would be perceived as cheap plastic toys, instead of an artistic endeavor. And yes at the end of the day it is plastic toys, but they are not perceived as that, they are perceived as a grown up, expensive, valuable collection, and that makes it approachable. We could all paint plastic buckets of army men and play with those. But do you want to be seen or associated with that? (rhetoric question) No you want to be seen as the sophisticated armchair general and artist.
Also as you yourself know, there is much less money in the hobby than people perceive, its all the marketing, design, sales, logistic etc behind it that adds up to the costs (and shareholders want a return on their investment as well!) GW nor any of their competitors are a charity, they need to earn money and not only break even at that. Also GW treats their employees a t least here in Europe and Uk quite well, they did not let anyone go during the pandemic, they kept paying everybody, and they paid back all the government help they got pretty much immediately.
I kind of like that. Also they are moving at least here in tiny steps to a more environmental approach (in Uk and NI you can return old sprues (and minis) now to the store to be recycled.
And yes plastic is cheap but the labour and the infrastructure necessary to have these kits, this whole industry surrounding it etc is not.
Also if GW would slash the prices a lot of the smaller more boutique studios and companies who are just scraping by now already just barely would have to lowers thierts as well to compete with them. Lots of people forget that.
I do 3D print a lot of stuff myself, and in case of OOP or Forgeworld (just because the quality for the price is just abysmal) I do say go buy 3rd party if you want to, but the whole Printer goes brr bro crowd is just annoying. Yes you can print whole armies and games, but with whom and where are you going to play? Clubs are most often associated with Stores, Stores do not want people advertising low - zero cost alternative (its not, but its advertised as that) and they need to keep the lights on. Even if you find a club which allows fully printed armies, a lot of people do not want to paly against them, as they feel this devalues their effort time and sunken cost. If you spend 1000-2000 Monies on an army you do not want to play against someone who tells you you're a sucker and he printed his stuff for 40 bucks and slapped some inks on it. (neither attitude is right, but humans psychology works this way...) Any kind of tournaments and such falls to the wayside as well
I'd actually be interested how you see 3D printing? Whole armies vs bits, vs bases vs terrain? Do you allow any in your store, have you run into the 3d printer goes brr Bros? How wo or would you deal with someone like that?
Long text again ^^ Thanks for the insights and videos btw, it is very interesting to see this even if your situation is quite a bit different from what we have here in Europe.
Kind regards from Ireland :)
I started with Rogue Trader, and the prices now seem more unreasonable not from a box of models point, but that almost everyone looks at 2000 points as the standard game size. Buying an elite army with high pointed models will get you to a "standard 2000 points" a lot easier than a horde army where models can be $1 per point, and that's not looking a game like Horus Heresy where a single 12 point Grey Slayer costs $22(AUD) plus.
As for pricing, it has changed as GW now trades in multiple currencies, you used to only be able to purchase them in British Pounds, when looking at an box/blister pack you wanted to buy the prices would fluctuate daily, the final price in store would be based on what day the local hobby store placed their order, then again I'm in Australia and we get inflated prices direct from GW now, as you will know we can't purchase outside our sales region.
As someone new to the hobby I think the problem I find is that it feels really strange that cost is not necessarily tied to points. I’ve started with Custodes, and the fact that a box of 5 sisters of silence is $60 is nuts to me. They’re the cheapest unit in the army, and while I personally love their lore, a lot of Custodes players take them because they have to. They get taken because we need cheap objective holders and we expect them to die off relatively quickly if we put them anywhere near the front of the battle. It’s strange that they’re so highly priced for something that’s worth so little points wise and that we expect to die so quickly.
The game was allways expensive i started 1998, and got a White Dwarf thought awsome, i want a undead army, i thought my mother would buy me a army, till she toled me a box of 8 Skellies costs the same like a big revel model.... game was allways expensive....
90’s prices were wild. For almost a decade I only ever got to buy a box every few months, with a windfall of a unit or two at Christmas. Especially all metal units - you’d get 5 blister packs to make a unit of 15 Black Guard and that was your entire Christmas.
I think another factor is the general acceptance of hobbies now - back then they were even more niche and miniatures was considered extremely odd, at least in my own experience. So you not only had niche luxury items, but a stigma to overcome.
I think prices have climbed steadily but are far less than they could be in comparison to when I started. It would take me more than one entire shift as a teenager working to afford one box of plastic models, while now even minimum wage allows for some Warhammer action after a Saturday of work.
@@jordancameron3584 I think the big difference is that with those handful of models you could still play fun games, the scale and buy it was so much smaller. Now if you walk into a store with a grab bag collection of 750pts it’s hard to convince anyone to play with you.
@@Dram1984I disagree, because playing games of Warhammer often meant 1000pts+ back in the 90’s. It was often extremely difficult to find anyone willing to play an ad hoc army, at least where I was.
Combat Patrol and especially Spearhead is a lot easier to enter and easy to find games for. Especially with the new starters.
We just have to remember that each of us experiences different things too though, because I’m basing this off my experiences, and my own career in the industry. But where you live and hobby could be very different.
@@jordancameron3584 maybe we’re talking about different eras (early vs late 90’s). Remember that the two tactical squads in the 2e starter box plus a character and some wargear got you a 1000pt army. The scale was so much more approachable. I knew a ton of people whose army was basically those two squads + Dante/Ragnar/etc… and they’re slowly expand over time.
I do agree with you about combat patrol and while I have some quibbles with it (mainly the insistence that they all cost the same which locks GW into some corners) it’s a great entry point for the most part. Hopefully they keep polishing the format and make it even better in 11th.
I suppose it all boils down to return on investment. Assuming you get an Xbox or PlayStation that is bundled with a game or two, what is the capital outlay for that versus how many hours of fun you get out of it before you want to make an additional purchase, like an additional game.
Assuming you can walk out of a store with a $168 USD combat patrol and get a Year's worth of hobby out of it in terms of building and painting and playing, then it's a good deal. But if you walk out of a store with a $60 box of space marine intercessors and consider that you're going to have to spend that 9 more times until you have a "proper army" to play at 2000 points (ignoring the fact that you can play at smaller point values along the way)... It may end up as the same cost as the Xbox bundle, but you're not necessarily getting a full Year's worth of value out of it from day one the same way.
Using Ash's "Christmas morning" criteria, an Xbox you can have set up in minutes and be playing, but for 40K, only something like one of the starter sets fits the criteria and only if you're okay with one of those two factions.
At the end of the day whatever the price of a starter for 40K seems irrelevant. It's a loss leader so it kind of doesn't count in terms of the cost of getting into the game. There are no starter boxes for Xboxes or PlayStations. I really don't remember the pricing at all, I was aware of 40K when tyranids, dreadnoughts, cadians were all pewter. Didn't make a purchase until I got a dark angel Battle Force. Soon after, Tau came out, got like $300 worth of product for $100 because a local player bought into it heavily and then hated the shooting army and sold it to me cheap.
Growing up in the 90s my biggest problem is probably the emergence of the internet and integration into our lives. Makes it too easy to compare everything. Cost, value, skill, and the inevitable meta chasing. Was easier to stay in my little bubble back then. Years of knowledge can be found in minutes now. Shortcuts whole segments of the journey. Like playing a game now following a progression guide. All about max efficiency end game but you ignore the journey on the way.
Trench.
Crusade.
ONWARDS TO THE FUTURE OF SKIRMISH WARGAMING
Hahaha stay tuned
I started in the cheaper era in 6th Ed fantasy, which I think that was the peak for affordability. Price here in nz has overshot inflation by quite a bit, and due to all starts even fantasy having an low model count elite army they struggle to compare to the older starters.
Without watching: It's too expensive for me to maintain at 32 let alone starting out as a kid, so I assume it is too expensive yes.
I find there is a shock in beginning particularly with GW products. And i think it connects to your point about those cheaper starter sets its this, if you can buy a starter set with tye beginnings of two armies and rules and such it works out great, but the shock comes when you have another $130 and you go to expand those armies and realize if you walk out with 2 unit boxes your lucky. Thats what my friends have discovered and has led them to Mantic games because of it. Firefight and Kings of War are picking up steam.
Probably depends on how parents feel, unless the kid has a part time job that gives enough to buy. I'd say later teens would be more likely to start than little timmies.
How many models did you get in 1996? Also. Do you get an actual army with a starter set ir do you get about 400 points?
The infrastructure issues makes it too difficult for little Timmy completely on his own.
I think there are pretty good ways into the hobby not that are pretty cheap. Stuff like Underworlds is great, the starter Kill Team box is good, etc. I do feel like there are far few "I have a few bucks so I'll spend a few bucks" things, now. When I was a kid in the 80s/90s I could just get a cheap blister pack of something, or a 5 pound box of monopose models. I could do SOMETHING.
The hobby is expensive but so is gaming. Some new games cost 70 euro on release. If its digital, you can't sell that either.
So long the pile of shames are this big its probably not too expensiv.
Hahaha we stand accused!
Also the rules you need are crazy. Thats why one page rules is amazing
I started in the LotR boom in the 2000s and it wasn't cheap. The difference was it took me forever to get it all painted. 😂
The other part of it is that folk who talk about cost are the ones running 6 armies in one game, 3 armies in another. That's ultimately why it's so expensive. There is no FOMO if you don't need to buy the latest toys for all the games/ factions you DON'T own.
They want new players to buy things they can't afford for a game they may not end up playing. All the while pushing away old players who can afford it and are willing to keep playing. Makes no sense.
Are those 54mm models in the cabinet at your seated head level? I see a bow, but that’s not Inquisitor is it?
They arr figures and busts. Big child creatives, kimera models, nuts planet etc
The store definitly lack the the 10$ buy option. Starting with 60-100$ even without paints , glue is too much. Plus people get more info. 2-3 squads and 1-3 vehicles was the army to get when, l started . Now it is 1/4th of an army.
Even the 3D printing market is on the same level, when you think all you really need to have to just print your first miniatures (printer, resin, files, electricity, all the chemical products you need to clean / cure, a room dedicated to the production, and so on). That's why I never took seriously all this "GW is too expensive as a Hobby" crowd...it's always hiding advertisement for another expensive hobby behind.
Little Timmy has a PS5, XBOX, 55" TV and a $1000 phone.
Timmy is a baller
I started 40K as an adult. I'm old so it didn't exist when I was a kid.
i still think for the amount of usage you get out of the models, warhammer is one of the most affordable hobbies out there.
Yes and yes there is no way a young kid will start this unless their Dad already plays or their family considers dropping this much money a good idea. Not to mention they’d need lots of dedication to make and paint them.
Considering GW price increases have always been several % higher than inflation i KNOW it's more expensive. And now, with high interest rates, higher cost of neccessary things like food and electricity cutting out plastic minis becomes a more and more common thing. Hobby budget is always: how much is left after all the other things are paid for? And right now, that's less, and the prices are higher.
Also: having more in the box doesn't really help the entryprice. It might be a better product, it might be better for the consumers who know they want this but for a new person it just makes it harder to want to buy in order to test out the hobby.
GW is not inexpensive but is also not unattainable. I love the value per hour that GW products represent in terms of hobby enjoyment. The value is really high especially once you’ve got all your basic tools, supplies and paints.
There's a difference between Little Timmy paying for his hobby with his allowance and paper route money and Timmy's parents paying for his hobby.
The younger Timmy is, the more it is the latter -- and that's the demographic GW is targeting IMHO.
I paid for my hobby with my own money back in late 80's and early 90's. I loved the old shirtbox games like Space Hulk, Adeptus Titanicus and Dark Future because the box really had everything you needed for a game, not just a starter force. And they only cost the same as a handful of blisters...
I never could afford the "full army" games back then (even with the smaller armies of yesterday)... almost no one here did, which is probably why they didn't really take off until mid 90's when more plastic sets became available.
P.S. And just get the primer and PVA glue from the hardware store for heaven's sake...
I imagine it is. They charge so much money for everything and then they make the older models obsolete - which makes no sense to me but apparently discontinuing older models and making them useless as a game feature “helps” the game somehow….