The problem isn't necessarily the units that got nerfed. The problem is the nerfed every single unit actually being played because they were close to the only units worth playing. You don't make the other units viable alternatives by making the good units worse. GW is the teacher that punishes the entire class for one person acting up.
As a necrons player whos ran hyper crypt, I think world eaters still have a very good matchup into it. Angron can comfortably one shot the monolith, and most of WE are fast enough to completely ignore the very slow ctan. Also both types of eightbound will very easily run though and kill the squads of T5 1W immortals with no issues. If angron comes back at least once the game is basically over since necrons simply don't have the damage to repeatedly kill this huge monster of a model running though the army one shotting key units. Even better is the immortals shoot and move onto your objective won't work against berserkers since you can blood surge into them and tie them up in melee.
The first thing I thought around 14:00 :"You know that most WE players like to yell "LEEROOOOY JENKINS!!!" at the beginning of turn one, right?" you even put the right image of angron in there 🤣
Just want to say you are one of my fav UA-camrs/coach/tts players looking into getting membership so can support and see if I can get some tts games with your community.
My WE spawns were close to being MVP's in so many matches now... I think bringing 3 squads of them is a great idea actually. I'm going to my local RTT in several days with a lot of weekend players, so I'll probably try my meme list with Angron and Skarbrand, plus I'd definitely try to shove in several spawn squads too!
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 Yeah, the lack of armor save and 4++ only, makes him super squishy. But I'm really hoping that my opponent will be too focused on other stuff and I can rapid ingress him somewhere safe to do some damage in the backline (while the frontline is charging like mad :p) - sounds good on paper, but we'll see how it works in motion. Like I've said - our local "competetive level" is rather low so it might work.
Great video! I was bringing the pressure bound list before I managed to pick up angron, and have won a ton of games through just scoring all my secondaries with spawn and jackals with how much space this list buys me.
I think us WE players will be alright. The nerfs were a bit harsh, especially when we have such a small list of units to pick from, but some of them were necessary. Between the MOE point increase and the Berzerker Glaive nerf, he's no longer an S tier auto pick. He's still good though. The Favored of Khorne enhancement got hit pretty hard, but I think people will still take it over Battle-lust. I think Khârn going up was a bit unnecessary because now we dont have a single HQ that's sub 100 points. He's got some good abilities, but I've seen better models go for cheaper. (Belial is 85, and he's in terminator armor) The Daemon Prince nerf killed my dream of a meme list of 120 Jakhals being protected by three foot Prince's 4+ invulnerable saves. Both flavors of Eightbound going up was expected and deserved. They are still really powerful, but I don't think people are going to max out their squad count on them like they used to. The KLOS and the Forgefiend going down is nice, but I still dont expect to see many Forgefiends on the tabletop. My 2000 point list I used before the nerf did alright. I only had to drop my unit of spawn to bring myself back below 2k.
Personally I prefer basilisks over manticores, for the -2 to move, charge and advance on a unit they hit. Also much cheaper. Plus you have access to so many troops and screening you can feed units piecemeal, and even with reinforcements slight nerf it's still wicked strong. Not saying its easy for the Guard but certainly feels like the tools are there for going against WE.
I think black Templars gladius actually does have a pretty good matchup into Hyper crypt being able to kill basically everything it throws at them and usually not going down to the couple immortals bricks going around the board.
Killing them is not really the issue, its more the fact that they have a million units all teleporting. also.... you have not lived until you have seen a 3 inch deepstriking silent kind flanked by 2 DDA's for angles hahaha
I have been toying with a list with Angron + 3 LoS + 3x10 jackals. How does that compare to 2 LOS + 2x10 Jackals + fav of khorne stats ? Also, I would tend to disagree that LoS is not adapter to WTC terrain. LoS are somewhat mobile if served with the +2 move (to compensate for the manuvers around ruins), the only thing is that you can't move them forward side by side. But in that type of list you're not really in a hurry to move forward, you can move up and take position on mid table with jackals for the backfield obj control, and have Angron sent Leeroy style to destroy enemy units that may threaten LoS at the front, die, then come back to rinse and repeat. And eveything that manages to get past Angron line, will have to face one LoS and they are as deadly as Angron in CC. Played several 2 LoS games before, against really mobile and heavy shooting armies like Tau, Eldar, just activate +2 moves and FNP blessings, manage well your CPs and you get a guaranteed 70-80 points score so the game depends on how well you prevent your opponent from scoring his secondaries. Out of the WTC tables, maybe only 4 or 5 are really a problem. My 2c.
Hey! Thank you for your question and comment! I can definitely see it being adaptable to WTC in a Team setting where you have board control. But running it as an individual list seems like a traumatic experience. I certainly agree there ARE maps in WTC the list can work in, but there are certainly plenty of maps you just cant move them on also. I would be afraid to take 3 tbh, i fail to see how you would essentially ever score Tactical (what does area denial?) with any sort of high score.
you're right the 2 (or 3) LoS list were built with WTC 6-8 team tournament in mind and I think it makes a very strong 1st or second defence list to influence the pairing. Still intrigued if going to 3 LoS + 3 jackhals is better than to bring 2 and favored of khorne :) Unsure about the maths you used to calculate the probabilities to expand it myself...@@Happykrumpingwargaming007
Haha no disrespect I wanted to steal somebody's math because I'm too lazy to work them or throw the required amount of dice ! >:) >:)@@Happykrumpingwargaming007
They can certainly be tricky, one of the reasons i like TTS, it lets me see if i enjoy the way something plays BEFORE investing time and resources into procuring it!
The power level of the faction might be fine to higher lvl players but if custodes start to be played at similar rates as the beginning of the edition it’s going to be a problem for WE and other melee factions. To average or below average players like myself that wide of access to fight first is just really oppressive. I think the win rates will reflect this before the next data slate. Saying they have play is probably true at face valve but when you take the skill level of players into consideration I think it’s going to start looking bad.
Maybe that was poorly worded lol I think I am closer to the average side than the below average side of the band that I mentioned. Snapped a 9 game losing streak with that win to so it felt pretty good.
With the nerf to the glaive it should have gone down to 15 points which would make it comparable to other faction enhancements. The blood angels getting a detachment thats the WE trait but better is funny if annoying
I havent used angron much as I've never felt he's worth it, I prefer to make my list wider with 20 Berserkers in rhinos instead, however I do run a Daemon prince with wings and rapid ingress him in their backfield, with half damage relic on him he's basically a ctan and very hard to deal with
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 most of the time he dies turn one, he's very hard to hide on uktc terrain and I usually fail to resurrect him so I can't really see the value in something like that
On the planet bowling ball that is UKTC i can see how he might be an issue haha, there are still places to hide him, It does make it harder to set him up for turn one charges though. Id recommend playing for turn 2 charges not turn one!
who calling maulerfiends slow? I mean 10 and easy plus 2 to move alongside their special ability giving them an extra 2 to charge against units below starting strength. I don't know I think maulers aren't so bad, they might not be the secret everyone is sleeping on but i think they are very viable. At least on the more casual local friendly game scene down at the hobby shop.
it makes it so the KLOS just has to touch terrain to see through it. Without that, a unit must be WHOLLY within. It is a world of difference, especially since the KLOS can see over most buildings as well, all he has to do i touch the ruin with any piece of his model, and he can essentially see through it perfectly.
i would! there just is not much to talk about though :P mainly when i talk about WE i use them to demonstrate combat movement and staging, as they are perfect for that
Interesting? You don't find the math on likelihood of resurrecting Angron or the dbl KLOS list insightful? Or perhaps the non angron list that literally no one has talked about :P
The problem isn't necessarily the units that got nerfed. The problem is the nerfed every single unit actually being played because they were close to the only units worth playing. You don't make the other units viable alternatives by making the good units worse. GW is the teacher that punishes the entire class for one person acting up.
pretty much
As a necrons player whos ran hyper crypt, I think world eaters still have a very good matchup into it. Angron can comfortably one shot the monolith, and most of WE are fast enough to completely ignore the very slow ctan. Also both types of eightbound will very easily run though and kill the squads of T5 1W immortals with no issues. If angron comes back at least once the game is basically over since necrons simply don't have the damage to repeatedly kill this huge monster of a model running though the army one shotting key units. Even better is the immortals shoot and move onto your objective won't work against berserkers since you can blood surge into them and tie them up in melee.
This is a good point WE very well may be the counter
The first thing I thought around 14:00 :"You know that most WE players like to yell "LEEROOOOY JENKINS!!!" at the beginning of turn one, right?" you even put the right image of angron in there 🤣
:P
Just want to say you are one of my fav UA-camrs/coach/tts players looking into getting membership so can support and see if I can get some tts games with your community.
Hey cheers man! I super appreciate that :) very happy to have you aboard
My WE spawns were close to being MVP's in so many matches now... I think bringing 3 squads of them is a great idea actually. I'm going to my local RTT in several days with a lot of weekend players, so I'll probably try my meme list with Angron and Skarbrand, plus I'd definitely try to shove in several spawn squads too!
Nice man post back later and let me know how it goes! My only issue with skarbrand is that sill 4++ with no armor save
What's your non-allied list with spawn?
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 Yeah, the lack of armor save and 4++ only, makes him super squishy. But I'm really hoping that my opponent will be too focused on other stuff and I can rapid ingress him somewhere safe to do some damage in the backline (while the frontline is charging like mad :p) - sounds good on paper, but we'll see how it works in motion. Like I've said - our local "competetive level" is rather low so it might work.
Great video! I was bringing the pressure bound list before I managed to pick up angron, and have won a ton of games through just scoring all my secondaries with spawn and jackals with how much space this list buys me.
cheers man!
I think us WE players will be alright. The nerfs were a bit harsh, especially when we have such a small list of units to pick from, but some of them were necessary.
Between the MOE point increase and the Berzerker Glaive nerf, he's no longer an S tier auto pick. He's still good though.
The Favored of Khorne enhancement got hit pretty hard, but I think people will still take it over Battle-lust.
I think Khârn going up was a bit unnecessary because now we dont have a single HQ that's sub 100 points. He's got some good abilities, but I've seen better models go for cheaper. (Belial is 85, and he's in terminator armor)
The Daemon Prince nerf killed my dream of a meme list of 120 Jakhals being protected by three foot Prince's 4+ invulnerable saves.
Both flavors of Eightbound going up was expected and deserved. They are still really powerful, but I don't think people are going to max out their squad count on them like they used to.
The KLOS and the Forgefiend going down is nice, but I still dont expect to see many Forgefiends on the tabletop.
My 2000 point list I used before the nerf did alright. I only had to drop my unit of spawn to bring myself back below 2k.
glad to hear you have good spirits about it
Personally I prefer basilisks over manticores, for the -2 to move, charge and advance on a unit they hit. Also much cheaper. Plus you have access to so many troops and screening you can feed units piecemeal, and even with reinforcements slight nerf it's still wicked strong. Not saying its easy for the Guard but certainly feels like the tools are there for going against WE.
Basilisk are certainly still very good!
I think black Templars gladius actually does have a pretty good matchup into Hyper crypt being able to kill basically everything it throws at them and usually not going down to the couple immortals bricks going around the board.
Killing them is not really the issue, its more the fact that they have a million units all teleporting. also.... you have not lived until you have seen a 3 inch deepstriking silent kind flanked by 2 DDA's for angles hahaha
I have been toying with a list with Angron + 3 LoS + 3x10 jackals. How does that compare to 2 LOS + 2x10 Jackals + fav of khorne stats ?
Also, I would tend to disagree that LoS is not adapter to WTC terrain. LoS are somewhat mobile if served with the +2 move (to compensate for the manuvers around ruins), the only thing is that you can't move them forward side by side. But in that type of list you're not really in a hurry to move forward, you can move up and take position on mid table with jackals for the backfield obj control, and have Angron sent Leeroy style to destroy enemy units that may threaten LoS at the front, die, then come back to rinse and repeat. And eveything that manages to get past Angron line, will have to face one LoS and they are as deadly as Angron in CC. Played several 2 LoS games before, against really mobile and heavy shooting armies like Tau, Eldar, just activate +2 moves and FNP blessings, manage well your CPs and you get a guaranteed 70-80 points score so the game depends on how well you prevent your opponent from scoring his secondaries.
Out of the WTC tables, maybe only 4 or 5 are really a problem.
My 2c.
Hey! Thank you for your question and comment! I can definitely see it being adaptable to WTC in a Team setting where you have board control. But running it as an individual list seems like a traumatic experience. I certainly agree there ARE maps in WTC the list can work in, but there are certainly plenty of maps you just cant move them on also. I would be afraid to take 3 tbh, i fail to see how you would essentially ever score Tactical (what does area denial?) with any sort of high score.
you're right the 2 (or 3) LoS list were built with WTC 6-8 team tournament in mind and I think it makes a very strong 1st or second defence list to influence the pairing. Still intrigued if going to 3 LoS + 3 jackhals is better than to bring 2 and favored of khorne :) Unsure about the maths you used to calculate the probabilities to expand it myself...@@Happykrumpingwargaming007
i didn't calculate it haha, that was stat checks calculations! I leave the big math to the super nerds :P (with respect of course)
Haha no disrespect I wanted to steal somebody's math because I'm too lazy to work them or throw the required amount of dice ! >:) >:)@@Happykrumpingwargaming007
Still one of my favorite armies to play against. No matter which way the game goes its always fast. Also Waaagh!
100% Orks vs WE is a beast of a game haha
I tested the forge fiend and for 145 points this thing is insane in any WE list. It provides very good shooting with the plasmas.
that is an interesting take!
I want to play the LOS but I can't find one anywhere for sale
They can certainly be tricky, one of the reasons i like TTS, it lets me see if i enjoy the way something plays BEFORE investing time and resources into procuring it!
How do you feel about the Daemon changes?
Daemons look scary, i have built a list for them which ill make a video on that..... its spicy we will say
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 I "unshelved" mine and taking them to an RTT on the 24th
nice!
With the two lord of skulls how do you keep Angron close to keep the rerolls going and get primary and secondary objectives?
Sticky objectives from the jackhals, angron is in position to trade himself for objective denial. The 8 bound go and take the "lightly" held objective
The power level of the faction might be fine to higher lvl players but if custodes start to be played at similar rates as the beginning of the edition it’s going to be a problem for WE and other melee factions. To average or below average players like myself that wide of access to fight first is just really oppressive. I think the win rates will reflect this before the next data slate. Saying they have play is probably true at face valve but when you take the skill level of players into consideration I think it’s going to start looking bad.
We will see! Although i whole heartily disagree calling you a below average player, i watched you smash your first round of the tournament!
Maybe that was poorly worded lol I think I am closer to the average side than the below average side of the band that I mentioned. Snapped a 9 game losing streak with that win to so it felt pretty good.
Thank God I never got the Master of Executions. I could feel the nerfhammer coming
Haha, he is still a Chad, but not auto include anymore!
Nerf or not it's still great, can't choose between 2 of him or 1 moe and 1 juggerlord honestly, we still need our heroes
Nice video! Could you do the same type of video for Thousand Sons?
cheers buddy, i am working on one!
With the nerf to the glaive it should have gone down to 15 points which would make it comparable to other faction enhancements.
The blood angels getting a detachment thats the WE trait but better is funny if annoying
I mean WE are still on average stronger than BA.... although, i may have just broken BA hahaha
I havent used angron much as I've never felt he's worth it, I prefer to make my list wider with 20 Berserkers in rhinos instead, however I do run a Daemon prince with wings and rapid ingress him in their backfield, with half damage relic on him he's basically a ctan and very hard to deal with
hmmm id be curious to see how you are using angron.... because he is unreasonably efficient.
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 most of the time he dies turn one, he's very hard to hide on uktc terrain and I usually fail to resurrect him so I can't really see the value in something like that
On the planet bowling ball that is UKTC i can see how he might be an issue haha, there are still places to hide him, It does make it harder to set him up for turn one charges though. Id recommend playing for turn 2 charges not turn one!
who calling maulerfiends slow? I mean 10 and easy plus 2 to move alongside their special ability giving them an extra 2 to charge against units below starting strength. I don't know I think maulers aren't so bad, they might not be the secret everyone is sleeping on but i think they are very viable. At least on the more casual local friendly game scene down at the hobby shop.
thats my thoughts on it!
Ehhhh seems like i need to get a better idea of what towering does.
it makes it so the KLOS just has to touch terrain to see through it. Without that, a unit must be WHOLLY within. It is a world of difference, especially since the KLOS can see over most buildings as well, all he has to do i touch the ruin with any piece of his model, and he can essentially see through it perfectly.
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 and be perfectly visible I presume?
well certainly, he will of course still be in cover@@BaronStrawberry
Do more world eaters please. 🙏
i would! there just is not much to talk about though :P mainly when i talk about WE i use them to demonstrate combat movement and staging, as they are perfect for that
Nothing insightful.
Interesting? You don't find the math on likelihood of resurrecting Angron or the dbl KLOS list insightful? Or perhaps the non angron list that literally no one has talked about :P