Caterpillar RD-4 and Scraper | Going to Brownsville 2024

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  • Опубліковано 25 лис 2024
  • Follow along some of the behind the scenes work of what it takes to get old equipment to the show.
    This 1937 Caterpillar RD-4 has been sitting for 8 years and I wanted to get it out. Once running i hauled it up on the old Mack LTH.
    I apologize for the limited filming I accomplished at the actual show but there's plenty of others who did that well!! Thanks for watching!
    Questions or comments?
    Email: scrappyind@gmail.com

КОМЕНТАРІ • 310

  • @B_richards9220
    @B_richards9220 3 місяці тому +25

    What does the rd4 mean instead of being just a d4?

    • @ScrappyIndustries
      @ScrappyIndustries  3 місяці тому +33

      The older gasoline tractors were the R series such as the R-4. I believe the R stood for regular. Then the diesels were the RD series. There is also a story I have heard that Cat developed the RD-5 for an odd New Deal era spec and it was named that for Roosevelt out of spite. Later the R was dropped as we still know today.

    • @RB-wl7ct
      @RB-wl7ct 3 місяці тому +7

      Oh shucks. I was going with rusty...

    • @B_richards9220
      @B_richards9220 3 місяці тому +12

      @ScrappyIndustries thanks didn't know that. And as far as your emery cloth and sand paper use on point I was told by my dad and grandpa that using those would leave behind small bits of grit between the points and it could cause them not to close properly

    • @terryfromsouthcarolina4601
      @terryfromsouthcarolina4601 3 місяці тому +3

      I love the belt drive pto on the RD4. You had a plug dropping out that made the rpm go up and down when you first started the pony motor.
      It's been years since I saw one of those scrapers. It seemed like every old cattle farm had one on a fence row or in a shed. Our part of Ohio had hard pan clay about 3 feet down. From what I was told just about all the stock ponds were dug with one of these.
      What a workout that must have been!
      It took 60 years, but I finally got to see one work.
      Thanks for the cool video!
      Cheers
      Terry

    • @steefvd1
      @steefvd1 3 місяці тому +4

      Like the scraper behind the RD4, you and your granddad did a fine job!

  • @junkyardsearcher6407
    @junkyardsearcher6407 3 місяці тому +23

    Love the fact that you worked on that while your grandpa was sick, it’s probably what he looked forward to and what really helped him pull through… kudos! I love hearing grandparents stories 😀

  • @gradyyokeley9930
    @gradyyokeley9930 19 годин тому

    I always loved those big steering wheels in those old Mack's

  • @kevinfiebelkorn4715
    @kevinfiebelkorn4715 3 місяці тому +21

    It's really amazing when you consider that those machines were designed and engineered with paper and pencil and they're still operating about 90 years later. Pure genius. I especially loved the story of you working with you grandpa to bring the old Cat back to life.

    • @kenhealy-q2p
      @kenhealy-q2p 3 місяці тому

      its amazing people had brains 90 years ago

    • @kevinfiebelkorn4715
      @kevinfiebelkorn4715 3 місяці тому

      @@kenhealy-q2p People actually used their brains unlike today when people's brains are on their desktop.

  • @stevea9604
    @stevea9604 3 місяці тому +21

    That Mack old big dog sure does purr 👍🏻🤩

  • @henkweurding3339
    @henkweurding3339 3 місяці тому +9

    That Mack Truck is The Star of the show.... Beautiful truck! Concerning the dozer, good memories from the past that should be kept in the family and being passed on to the next generation, including ofcourse that immaculate Mack truck. Nice video and thumbs up! You, at your age are one of the last Mohicans that understands and knows how to operate these machines in the next 30 years. That's why I like what your doing with Matt and Chris to preserve these industrial monuments.

    • @tmscheum
      @tmscheum 3 місяці тому

      Clint at C&C Equipment has also got the bug. Squatch253, LAOL (Life after our loss), and Pacificnortwesthillbilly are also old Cat addicts.

    • @henkweurding3339
      @henkweurding3339 3 місяці тому

      Yes, he does,and man Clint gots some knowledge to. These guys grew up with these machines, at 14 they probably knew more than today's 22 year old mechanics. Not that I blame our younger mechanics, they will get there, but times have changed. As they should.

  • @barrygrant2907
    @barrygrant2907 3 місяці тому +14

    Between the truck, the crawler, and the scraper, that should be the showstopper!

  • @tracywagoner4907
    @tracywagoner4907 3 місяці тому +18

    That older equipment is amazing in how patient and genius the old operators were.

  • @georgepretnick4460
    @georgepretnick4460 5 днів тому

    Y'all had me cornfused for a minute. Carburetor? Spark? On a diesel? OK, the pony motor.

  • @jeffbangkok
    @jeffbangkok 3 місяці тому +20

    Good evening from the mango farm Thailand. When I hear you and Matt talk about being kids in 2000 something I start laughing. Thank you guys for keeping the old toys running

  • @johnvcramer5517
    @johnvcramer5517 2 місяці тому +6

    You and Matt over at Diesel Creek are GREAT together the way you help each other.!!!!!!

  • @williamlee1429
    @williamlee1429 3 місяці тому +29

    I have about 100 UA-cam channels that I watch every day. I don’t watch the news anymore except for the local weather and traffic. I don’t watch TV shows anymore. I do have a library of old movies that I watch but I can tell you that I look forward to, new videos coming out on this channel. I found out about this channel from diesel Creek. But now that I have subscribed it is one of my favorite channels. Keep up the good work and we all wish you the best. I’m sure.

    • @tmscheum
      @tmscheum 3 місяці тому +2

      100% agree.

    • @jeansimongat
      @jeansimongat 3 місяці тому +5

      Tv , news , movie sucks now days with all the woke agenda

    • @lawrenceelliott-j3h
      @lawrenceelliott-j3h 2 місяці тому +3

      i have not owned a TV now for 26 years since I loaded up the 30-30 and blasted it in front of my shop when it offended me. Left it there for 7 years on my 40 acre ranch right in front of the shop door and boy was it a conversation starter. TV news is just pure propaganda for brain washing. I'm 74 and Sam and Matt are now like long lost friends.

    • @kenc3288
      @kenc3288 2 місяці тому

      Ditto. Cheers from Sydney Australia.

  • @brianpesci
    @brianpesci 3 місяці тому +8

    Watching you and Matt take all of the country roads reminds me of the days before they built 79 and we had to take old rt 8 between Northeast and Butler to get to 356 to get to Freeport and Grandma's house. All of the dairy farms to count cows to keep me and my brother busy and the Burma Shave signs going through Ttitusville, Oil City, Franklin, etc.

    • @robertmarshall1415
      @robertmarshall1415 3 місяці тому

      I grew up in Butler and know what you mean about the old back roads. That was many decades ago.

    • @wes11bravo
      @wes11bravo 3 місяці тому +1

      Northwestern PA is idyllic. Lots of the guys I work with have camps up there.

  • @arkansas1336
    @arkansas1336 2 місяці тому +3

    In 1967 I quit skidding logs with mules and horses and started using a diesel powered 1948 D4 Cat. I had stepped up to the big time! The live stock pulled the same amount of timber daily but I didn't have to build corrals in the woods, find watering holes, feed it (just a small amount of diesel fuel) or maintain harness for the D4, all with one less $20/day employee. "Oh the good ole days"...lol.

  • @Pamudder
    @Pamudder 3 місяці тому +5

    I love the vintage photo of you with your grampa. Wonderful memories!

  • @anil42518
    @anil42518 3 місяці тому +7

    Cute little tractor love the MACK TRUCK.

    • @mmitron3196
      @mmitron3196 3 місяці тому +1

      this trucck is so beautiful and i love the sound

  • @sgthighway7477
    @sgthighway7477 2 місяці тому +2

    Hello,
    What a joy to see the beautiful Mack and the magnificent Caterpillar RD-4 and Scraper.
    Thank you for dazzling us and saving all this material.
    I enjoy myself every time, thanks again.

  • @remiewatkins8032
    @remiewatkins8032 3 місяці тому +7

    Awesome video Sam just loved it

  • @jefferyyoung6836
    @jefferyyoung6836 3 місяці тому +1

    When I was at the oil company we cleaned the inside of drums with a chain and a roller machine to keep it spinning over slowly. 15 minutes later it was spotless.

  • @abduljaleelalashi1022
    @abduljaleelalashi1022 10 днів тому

    I like the way you explain everything and show us how you fix the problem, Thank you so much.

  • @peterjones4497
    @peterjones4497 3 місяці тому +6

    What a great little setup. Amazing how they got things to work with no hydraulics.

    • @olivei2484
      @olivei2484 3 місяці тому +1

      And not as much work as a fresno.

  • @stevea9604
    @stevea9604 3 місяці тому +7

    That menagerie of equipment is such a great zoo of Cats & dogs

  • @texasjetman
    @texasjetman 2 місяці тому +1

    Now that’s awesome I get to see you pull some family history out of the barn get it going quickly then haul it with the coolest Green Mack I’ve ever seen to a show then have footage with three awesome UA-cam guys that I follow huddle around you learning about your machine. Totally a great video. 🇺🇸

  • @littlejason99
    @littlejason99 3 місяці тому +5

    That was great to watch, had a little of everything! Thanks for sharing!

  • @tommybryson2311
    @tommybryson2311 3 місяці тому +3

    You really know the timings on those traffic lights …
    You judged that one perfect 👌
    Like your style Man
    🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🍀🌲🐿️

  • @AdelinoGambiarras
    @AdelinoGambiarras 3 місяці тому +1

    Nice little Dozer it so cute I love it 👍 👌

  • @phillipdean9879
    @phillipdean9879 3 місяці тому +2

    Your Grandpa would be so proud of you Sam! Job well done! 🇦🇺🍺🍺

  • @codysp
    @codysp 7 днів тому

    That old Mack sure is a beautiful truck!

  • @gradyyokeley9930
    @gradyyokeley9930 20 годин тому

    I love your 56 Mack, you don't see many tandems in the older Mack's 😉

  • @CalamityKim1
    @CalamityKim1 3 місяці тому +1

    Great video Sam, it was really nice to meet you. Looking forward to the next time we’re out with you all.

  • @allensharlow7763
    @allensharlow7763 3 місяці тому +1

    Well Sam you box scraper works pretty good, I love those old simple machines, you and many others really bring it back to life again, great job Sam, have a good one❤😎😎👍👍🍮🍮

  • @davidrose8046
    @davidrose8046 2 місяці тому +1

    A true blast from the past! I love it.

  • @Randys_Relics
    @Randys_Relics 3 місяці тому +4

    We saw the RD-4 sitting there, it was looking good! I'll have to bring something to the show someday. It was fun to watch everyone but I felt like I was missing out, without having anything to operate!

  • @mikedominick2843
    @mikedominick2843 3 місяці тому +2

    Great video, I enjoy them all. When you said the machine belonged to the Latrobe Construction Company brought back some memories, I had an uncle who operated one of their big shovels and had the opportunity to be in the cab while working on a road building job. Also I have seen the Mack dump truck at the show that belonged to Latrobe Construction. It is so good to see how you and everyone else there preserve the old equipment. I did get to talk to you at the show on the 11th, thanks.

  • @photonphil873
    @photonphil873 3 місяці тому +2

    Great stuff!!!! Love watching that old stuff come to life. That Mack is real sweet, nice job! The Volvo is pretty handy to have around.

  • @brucehobbs1734
    @brucehobbs1734 3 місяці тому +2

    That is a beautiful Mack!

  • @donabbott4060
    @donabbott4060 3 місяці тому +2

    So nice to see the next generation of your family getting involved that little guy is going to be something

  • @larryrussomanno9217
    @larryrussomanno9217 2 місяці тому +2

    How cool is that old Mack!

  • @aguywhodoesstuff
    @aguywhodoesstuff 3 місяці тому +1

    Great thinking with dropping the bucket on the scraper for safety.. small things make big things not happen.

  • @oleukeman
    @oleukeman 3 місяці тому +1

    Every time I see a video of you guys running these machines I think of when I was a kid playing with my Tonka toys.

    • @tmscheum
      @tmscheum 3 місяці тому

      Noticed the Tonka toys on the ground next to where the RD-4 was parked!

  • @terryrogers1025
    @terryrogers1025 3 місяці тому +2

    Thanks for the video Sam, nice to see the ole machines of yesteryear, we sure came along way since then. Thanks for the history on the D4, found it interesting and entertaining, really enjoyed watching.

  •  3 місяці тому +1

    That green Mack truck is good looking and sounds great. That Volvo fork lift is a mighty beast to carry that little bulldozer like that....

  • @barbaraLandskroener
    @barbaraLandskroener 3 місяці тому +1

    sam, you and matt,are a couple smart young men love watching you two.

  • @matthewmarvin295
    @matthewmarvin295 3 місяці тому +2

    Great video, but my biggest smile came from Matt playing with the dog in the background 😅

  • @PrattsWorkshop
    @PrattsWorkshop 3 місяці тому

    That turned out to be a nice set up.

  • @joshmcdevitt190
    @joshmcdevitt190 3 місяці тому

    As an apprentice electrician, I was told to use a dollar bill to clean contacts in disconnects, motor starters, and the contacts on the field contacts to generator stators, if they won’t make good power. Before trying to reflash.

  • @jamestjomsland948
    @jamestjomsland948 13 днів тому

    Yo Sam. Your Ancestors are watching and They Are Pleased!! jimmy

  • @burtsbass1
    @burtsbass1 2 місяці тому +1

    Wonderful video, thanks for sharing!

  • @fordjacobsentractor
    @fordjacobsentractor 3 місяці тому +2

    Hi Sam, I talked to you at Brownsville during the meet and greet. I knew that Mack of your Paps from a long time ago. Just couldn't place it. That Mack Dealer along 70 near West Newton/Mt Pleasant...used to be a bus garage. I drove by it everyday when I drove for Mikel Trucking. Bright orange western star triaxles. My uncle was probably at that sale. He worked for Latrobe Construction back in the 60s before he went on with his own business. Small world...keep up the great videos.

  • @kennethlynch9926
    @kennethlynch9926 Місяць тому

    That absolute beautiful beast of a truck 🚚 wins the watch. Thanks for sharing this magnificent content (GREEN TRUCK )

  • @jamescorless8283
    @jamescorless8283 3 місяці тому +1

    Nice to see how old machines work.

  • @r1mein54
    @r1mein54 3 місяці тому +1

    Good that you are working old equipment that built this nation. I`d bet the workers made $1.50 to $2.00 an hour when this stuff was new.

  • @philipcollins5440
    @philipcollins5440 3 місяці тому +4

    Love watching the old stuff. You're having way to much fun😊

  • @danielpullum1907
    @danielpullum1907 3 місяці тому

    Well Young Man you need to come out here in the true MIDWEST (central Illinois, Iowa, Indiana). The corn and beans are lovin life and lookie great1!!!

    • @johnfletcher317
      @johnfletcher317 3 місяці тому

      Have him come to Mt pleasant, Iowa for the upcoming 'Missouri farm progress show' AKA old threshers

  • @rmck6830
    @rmck6830 Місяць тому +1

    I have seen you so many times on Diesel Creek it's like you two were one person. Now it's time to build your subscriber list up just like his. Best of luck.

  • @tdotw77
    @tdotw77 3 місяці тому

    What a beautiful ol Mack you got there! Sam, you(& family) got all the cool stuff for sure! I love your Ford LTl9000, shes so nice & sharp!👌🏻👍🏻🛠️🔧🔩🦺⚠️🛢️🚜🏗️🚚🚧
    ✊🏻🇺🇸🦅🇺🇸✊🏻

    • @tdotw77
      @tdotw77 3 місяці тому

      5:04 I really love that color Super duty too(Area 51 blue?)! I know your driving a GM so must be someone else's in you family with better taste then you! 😂😅🤔JK

  • @AndrewKilvert
    @AndrewKilvert 15 днів тому

    Love your work scrappy, greetings from the South Pacific

  • @4051a
    @4051a 3 місяці тому

    Nice job. You have to get the Cat 60 out and running. We got Alan Smith's 60 out yesterday for our show this weekend at the Rock River Thresherree in Edgerton Wi.. I have my 5UD2 and LaPlant-Choate C-45 scraper there. Mike Ferguson will be running his Bucyrus 41 B steam dragline. You have to try and make it to our show sometime.

  • @DOCTORDROTT
    @DOCTORDROTT 3 місяці тому

    that's a nice RD 4 I have 17 machines in my collection now

  • @lordcaptainvonthrust3rd
    @lordcaptainvonthrust3rd 3 місяці тому +1

    Thanks Sam
    Always good to the old equipment still working ⚒️👍

  • @FirstSuiGeneris
    @FirstSuiGeneris 3 місяці тому

    That is a fantastic setup, I love it! There's something special about old mechanical machines and their use by men!

  • @roberthocking9138
    @roberthocking9138 3 місяці тому +1

    Nice one, no doubt reminds you of the times you spent with your grandad, good times. 👍 gooday from AUS, new subscriber.🦘🇦🇺

  • @p38arover22
    @p38arover22 3 місяці тому

    Pressure washing! That’s something you don’t see Matt doing that often.

  • @JohnJ-q5j
    @JohnJ-q5j 3 місяці тому

    I never thought of putting stuff in the tank and shaking to clean rust, I like that idea, Learned something new today I am 78

  • @donnal.oglesby4806
    @donnal.oglesby4806 3 місяці тому

    Sam was so great seeing the old RD-4 Caterpiller and the 1928 scrapper working. So Awesome. Wishing some of the other guys that were there, like Clint [ C& C equiptment ] Mike [ Dirt Perfect ] and Matt out on a video from the show. Loved seeing the Dozer in action. I can understand the ear plugs with all that noise.🙂WOW!! talk about a FULL load going back home!

  • @latemcire8387
    @latemcire8387 3 місяці тому

    I cleaned an old small engine gas tank out with fish tank rocks and an air blast from a compressor. Worked great.

  • @reelroller
    @reelroller 3 місяці тому +2

    I would like to see more of that CAT60 that the RD-4 was parked next to.

  • @joerodrigues3816
    @joerodrigues3816 3 місяці тому +1

    An amazing video mate thanks for sharing this with us and all the best to you and your family and your friends

  • @abqcleve
    @abqcleve 2 місяці тому

    "Clearance Clarence"! You're speaking my language!

  • @gradyyokeley9930
    @gradyyokeley9930 20 годин тому

    I see you got your copilot Matt

  • @pjofurey6239
    @pjofurey6239 Місяць тому

    I use a length of pushbike chain to loosen crud out of gas tanks , it’s a real bear to get the last few nuts & bolts out of some older motorcycle tanks .
    Keep em rollin hope the show was dry!

    • @ScrappyIndustries
      @ScrappyIndustries  Місяць тому

      Great idea with the chain

    • @pjofurey6239
      @pjofurey6239 Місяць тому

      @@ScrappyIndustries like all the best lessons ,learnt the hard way , really enjoy the channel , still can’t beat that loader deal , then the crane just great deals , went on the back of the big dog and earring their keep.

  • @tomki6asp
    @tomki6asp 3 місяці тому +1

    She’s a beaut, Scrappy!

  • @Johnny-m1x5f
    @Johnny-m1x5f 3 місяці тому

    I just love watching Sam. The man is fearless and has an awesome attitude. Many thanks Sam Ollld guy in Texas

  • @rickbray7100
    @rickbray7100 8 днів тому

    They make a point burnishing tool specifically for cleaning points. They are cheap online I always have a few laying around for when I work on the older stuff

  • @kerrygleeson4409
    @kerrygleeson4409 3 місяці тому +1

    Great video Sam as always 🦘

  • @NotJRB
    @NotJRB 3 місяці тому

    I was born (Mon Valley) and raised in SWPa and spent 63 years there. My parents were from Brownsville and married in St Peters Church. I spent many fantastic days there. I wish I could go back in time. At one point, over 100 years ago, Brownsville had a lot of promise. I moved to Virginia a few years ago for family reasons. I sorely miss home but I'm better off closer to family who moved away.

  • @jackanderson1418
    @jackanderson1418 3 місяці тому +2

    The scraper would look great painted yellow to match the RD-4😊

  • @brianmckenna3440
    @brianmckenna3440 2 місяці тому

    Another great video Sam love it when you and Matt get together great content

  • @brucehobbs1734
    @brucehobbs1734 3 місяці тому

    One of your best videos. If I was driving that Mack it would be more than a twin stick. Yea hah!🎉🎉

  • @daveneil3963
    @daveneil3963 3 місяці тому

    I couldn't get enough of that Mac! She sounded great and the paint was beautiful! Thanks for sharing with us. That was an awesome video.

  • @eladfitz5673
    @eladfitz5673 3 місяці тому +1

    Simply amazing, and thanks for sharing

  • @william6526
    @william6526 3 місяці тому

    Ive love to watch you use old equipment, it reminds me of my younger days running arm strong equipment.
    The first truck i learned how to drive was a 1969 white with a four an three tranmission.,you had to know how to shift back then compared to the trucks they have today. No air ride ,no a/c and my hearing is toast because no one had heard of ear protection back when i first learned how to run equipment. Those were good times to be young and alive ,id give just about anything to be able to turn the clock back to those days. It was hard work but a great time to be alive.
    The first scraper i operated was pulled behind a cat and all the controls were manual crank and after 8 hours of grading a road you knew youd put in a days work. It took a certain amount of skill to operate one of those old scrapers that evolved into the graders they have today. These young guys that operate these new pieces of equipment most likely wouldnt of lasted a day with the arm strong equipment we used.

  • @robertadriver6931
    @robertadriver6931 3 місяці тому +1

    I guess your grandpa is mighty proud of you.

  • @garymessina1609
    @garymessina1609 3 місяці тому +1

    Awesome Sam great video thanks and the guys too

  • @rintin1874
    @rintin1874 3 місяці тому +3

    Great video Sam watching from Edinburgh Scotland UK 🇬🇧 👍

  • @charleswelch249
    @charleswelch249 3 місяці тому

    That's a cool setup, the scraper behind the RD4 is amazing for the time they were invented. I hope you make both of them look and operate like new.

  • @DunbarLandFarms
    @DunbarLandFarms Місяць тому

    Loved the Green Mack

  • @natecampbell4708
    @natecampbell4708 3 місяці тому

    Thanks for sharing about your Grandfather! I'm sure those are great memories of working together. I was closer to mine on my Mother's side, but never got to do any projects with either him, or the one from my Dad's side, because of their age & health conditions. Also glad you got the machine running and finally getting to use the scraper. I gotta say that light plant is really cool! Oh & BTW, I appreciate the sound effects you added to you walking fast forward. 😀

  • @daviddoyle3246
    @daviddoyle3246 3 місяці тому

    Love your ltl 9000 ford had one of the best road tractors ever built,you've done a great job on the mack z I really enjoy watching you and Matt

  • @stevesavage8424
    @stevesavage8424 3 місяці тому

    Wow! Projects that have been finished! What a concept, you should teach your friend Matt that trick😊

  • @KennethDuBord-bc2wo
    @KennethDuBord-bc2wo 3 місяці тому

    Heartwarming story how You got that RD4 back to its glory for your grandfather. I respect that mindset. As usual, I really enjoyed the video.

  • @taurota1554
    @taurota1554 Місяць тому

    Outstanding and awesome content as always.Thanks for sharing and taking us along.

  • @chadoliver8689
    @chadoliver8689 3 місяці тому +1

    It was nice of uncle Ricco to stop playing football long enough to help lol

    • @ScrappyIndustries
      @ScrappyIndustries  3 місяці тому +1

      This comment wins I am literally dying 😂😂😂

    • @chadoliver8689
      @chadoliver8689 3 місяці тому

      Lol that's just what came to mind. Love the videos

  • @johncrist-v5r
    @johncrist-v5r 3 місяці тому

    You are full of surprises Sam things you have.thank .PS is Matt pissed of off very slow

  • @mikebrunner1577
    @mikebrunner1577 3 місяці тому

    Thank you Sam. Love the old rd4. I have never seen one in person. Really love the old Dog.

  • @robertneilitz4926
    @robertneilitz4926 3 місяці тому

    absoutley love the family involvement , Thank You

  • @KarmaShaw-dc1hd
    @KarmaShaw-dc1hd 3 місяці тому

    That's the coolest thing I've seen in years

  • @michaelpayne8102
    @michaelpayne8102 3 місяці тому

    Very cool, great little tractor. Looks to have been a fairly productive setup when it was running, once the team got their rhythm down they’d have leveled out ares pretty quick. Seeing the bucket shovel reminded me of Mike Mulligan and his Steam Shovel.

  • @Bman2020
    @Bman2020 3 місяці тому

    It’s awesome see the old iron kept running for everyone to see the scraper is cool 👍👋🇨🇦

  • @waltermattson5566
    @waltermattson5566 3 місяці тому

    As anlways another great video. It is nice to see the older equipment start so easy after sitting so long without be started and used.