I restore brain cells watching The Glenn Show. 😁 The best discussion between two very intelligent blk man that is becoming an anomaly these days Keep up the great podcast 🙏
Love McWhorter’s point on equity being a “dumbing down” AfroAmerican intelligence and capacity. His anger is palpable and I so agree with him. Love his forthrightness!
Equality of opportunity would be to increase funding of education and after school programs with funnels to various schools to match the current ability of the student to allow more people to get the correct and managable levels of education that can lead to social economic development of communities. Bring in more career and skill development opportunities.
Glenn and John's discussions are always so interesting and fruitful because everything is on the table. Both sides of the argument are examined without rancour, which is lacking in most debating although that has it's place.
21:00 - Preach it John! You are solidly on point. Not a pleasant thing to hear, an hideously unpleasant thing to say, think, and leverage for political gain. It is grotesque. Individuals of all groups have that "born dumb" thing, which simply means they have a different skill set. They should be encouraged to develop and build that skillset not given a spot to fill a box in an incompatible field for Equity's sake. Thank you fellas for your work. I appreciate both of you. Peace~
I directed a medical school clinical clerkship at the University of Minnesota Medical School. I recall when the vice dean stated to an assembly of everyone who was directing the clinical rotations and stating as fact, "Standardized tests are racist, and we are going to do away with them." I was astounded by the implication that black, hispanic, and indigenous students were some how genetically incapable at performing at the same level as white, south/east asian students. I tried to raise the objection that we are rather uncovering down stream effects rather than true genetic differences and too assert otherwise seems incredibly racist. There was no appetite to dissent. In my experience you are correct that there is a deep sense of urgency that we need to make the changes NOW. Any fallout from changing/lowering standards will be overcome by the improvement in cultural understanding and the workforce reflecting the population to a greater degree. What I don't think many people have thought about is that east/south asians are incredibly over represented within medicine when you look at the demographics of Minnesota in particular. It will be interesting to see how this splinters from a specific focus on POC to BIPOC mentality, likely splintering the activism further.
Rural students are needed in med schools to fill a pipeline of MDs who will want to practice in rural areas. However, "need" should not trump merit. I studied alongside a group of med students who came in thru a rural pathway program (Nebr); all performed well. The upstream (merit) affects the downstream (results). Furthermore, if these rural students hadn't been selected on merit & had performed poorly as a group, there would've been resentment from fellow students. Having the baseline intelligence necessary to complete an MD, JD, Pharm D, etc. is essential, but not enough. The other essential component is ambition / discipline / effort. We can look up to high performers with curiosity & respect (how can I become more like them??) or with resentment & jealousy. What matters most in medicine is the best care for the patient, not the ego or feelings of the provider. You are 100% correct about the NOW. I've been taking the passive approach, but had a reawakening after viewing the proceedings of Stanford's "Academic Freedom Conference" (4-5 Nov 2022). I highly recommend it! ua-cam.com/play/PLQy2zhWqTFZ5Thzz1tE8dhWWTRUTQzaIZ.html
I think Africans in the UK are doing better than whites educationally. But they're highly selected for IQ, wealth and culture. And likely benefit from forms of positive discrimination along the way. Africa has an average IQ of around 73. It is what it is.
In the 1980's, Dr. Kuwanza Kunjufu (his lecture: "To Be Popular or To Be Smart" is available on UA-cam) reported that the number of hours each U.S. ethnic group studied for the SAT/wk was enumerated as follows ( as of 1988): Asians - 12 hrs a week Whites - 8 hrs/ week Blacks - 5 hrs/wk while we watch more television than any other US ethnic group. I tested this theory on one of my nephews. He had a 4.0 GPA BUT - like many high GPA native born AA students - took the SAT at the beginning of his 11th grade yr and scored in the low 900s due to minimal prep. I presented the above statistics to him and challenged him to take a prep class and to practice by taking each round of 9 practice tests in his Prep manual a minimum of 3 times under real conditions for 12 weeks prior to taking the test a second time. His results: He increased his score from the low 900s to a 1350. Earned Bill/Mel. Gates scholarship and graduated from a top 20 university. What's the moral here? John and Glen are absolutely right. It's downright insulting that standards should be lowered for us.
The pressure to bridge the racial disparities in achievement has become so intense that it can only be accomplished by mandates rather than merit. Silencing the equity drums for a generation or two can enable true and sustainable progress the old fashioned way, but a whole lot of drummers would be out of a job, so what are the chances?
Again the problem I always have with McWhorter's take on this aspect of the racial equity topic is that while yes he's right that woke policy is condescending to black people in some ways (i.e. you're not able to get it done on your own so we need to have special race-based rules to help you) the reality is that woke, so-called progressive equity policies are much more detrimental to working class white people. It's lower income whites who will be excluded from opportunities due to notions of white privilege. Yes blacks are somewhat being condescended to, but the white guy's being told, you're privileged, you're also racist just by being who you are so you don't get a job. Sorry but that's way worse.
You make a good point that far too many people are afraid to talk about. That being that if opportunities are wholly or even partially based on race, gender, and/or sexual orientation etc. that opens the door for the possibility of the denial of those same opportunities based on race, gender, and/or sexual orientation etc. Equal Opportunity Employment laws are supposed to protect ALL applicants from being discriminated against based on race, gender, and/or sexual orientation etc. I don't think I'm going out on a limb to suggest that these laws are not being entirely and properly enforced.
@@mjm5081 Agreed, Jim Crow ended after 1965. Special privileges and assistance programs in 2023 and beyond should be based on actual proof of economic need regardless of ethnic background or gender etc.
It is a worse problem but it is also a worse talking point. Those people have already declared it impossible to be racist to white people so pointing out how they are being racist towards white people is not going to have any affect on them. McWhorter pointing out how they are hurting the people they claim to care about might at least make them pause.
@@williamjenkins4913 I disagree. The only way to change opinions is to bring the truth into the discussion whether the censorious people on the other side like it or not. I've watched for 30 years as the 'I hate whitey' nonsense went from a fringe ideological viewpoint held by fringe characters like Farrakhan, to now it's being incorporated into the mainstream via commentators like Michael Eric Dyson and Joy Reid etc. Another 20-30 years of self-censorship on the part of white people in the face of continuingly more incendiary racial rhetoric will lead to far worse. The 2045-2050 version of Michael Eric Dyson, Ibraim Kendi etc., whoever that individual may be, will likely be running a concentration camp that exterminates the people he hates rather than just complaining about them on TV.
I always enjoy Glenn and John's discussions. Re: Equity/Equality... The best description I've heard is along the lines of "equality is the push for equal opportunity, equity is the push for equal outcomes".
I wish there was some way to follow the descendants of Southern Whites so that we could compare how they are doing compared to Blacks who are, after all, mostly Southern in background. People remember how Southern Blacks tested less well than whites on IQ tests in WWI. People forget that Southern Whites also tested badly at that time, less well than Northern Blacks. The fact that most Black ancestors were forcibly assimilated by one of the three lowest achieving subcultures in the US may be a significant factor in differences in academic achievement.
@annarboriter Yes, hookworm and malaria as causes of childhood anemia contribute to a permanent lowering of the IQ. Additionally, iodine deficiency causes similar problems. Still, the fact that most slaves were assimilated into one of the three least achievement oriented subcultures in the US is likely to have generational effects. This is why I would like to compare and contrast White Southerners and their descendants. The trick is how to differentiate between the descendants of White Southerners outside of the South and White Northerners today.
@@joanhuffman2166 Pellagra and rickets certainly are other factors in early childhood development, which few today can remember but it's only hookworm that was limited by geography
@annarboriter malaria was endemic in the US South until the government began putting in dams. Mosquito control was and is a big part of how they are operated. Pellegra was an issue in the South. The South had the poverty that caused people to rely on mostly corn for their diet. (Alas, too few, remembered that Indians added a little ash to their corn, which is sufficient to nixtamalize the corn and unlock the niacin.) Iodine deficiency was an issue in parts of the South (Appalachia).
"Standards are relative?" The consummate oxymoron. The only motivation behind relativism is so the people pushing it can never be held accountable for not measuring up to the standard.
I'm white. My parents didn't have a 8th grade education. Neither had good hand writing. They both could read. My dad did math in his head, when helping us with homework. We didn't have kindergarten. I started 1st grade at 5. I knew how to read. I struggled with math. We took the tests once a year. I can't sit down without something to read if I don't have have company. I think the War on Poverty helped some things in Southern Appalachia such as the Headstart centers. They also started preschools, my first real job was in the one of the preschool centers in the early 70's. Women that needed help couldn't get it if their husband was in the home.
Since teachers teach to the test nowadays, it's absolutely a mistake to lower standards, especially in English. I was a good all-rounder in school and now think it was my strength in English and having read a lot since very young that helped in every other subject. I am from a working-class background in the north of England and my Mum would NEVER have accepted poor grammar ("we was" instead of "we were", as is typical where we live).
It seems like we're being led to believe that by elevating 'The Golden Unicorn' that is the most vulnerable person, we're fixing the problem of equality. The reality of this is it means our governments only need to help a tiny minority to look virtuous & succeed. Forced equity will undoubtedly destroy all fields of study if left unchecked. The fact is, different people are drawn to different interests. The internet & AI will hopefully help solve more racial issues than they cause. MSM needs to be far more responsible & lead by a good example rather than by mob rule. The human ear can only hear the word 'crisis' so often til it falls deaf.
You guys should have Zakiya Dalila Harris on the show. She wrote "The Other Black Girl", which was eventually turned into a Hulu series. She said in an interview that she's into black individualism and grey areas. She also said that it's necessary to have both the "call out" ("woke") and "compromising" crowd. Anyway, I think she's interesting and you all could have a great conversation.
Because of the barriers to immigration, (cost and time) the people who immigrate are right tailed people and thus more successful. Assuming cognitive ability is hereditary (with regression to the mean) the direct descendants will be near right tailed and more successful. Were slaves that were caught, sold, and shipped in the 17th and 18th century people from the left tail? Are their descendants hampered by that hereditary? If in a population, right tailed people only parent kids with other right tailed people and left tailed people procreate the same, two populations will emerge with different means. If the left tailed people are having more kids, the mean of the population as a whole will decrease. The cognitive elete on the right tails of any race don't deal with the left tailed people, or people between the tails of a lesser mean and thus cannot recognize the problem. However, people between the tails of a group of a higher mean interact regularly with the people to the left and center of a group with a lesser mean. The intellectuals can never convince the former that the latter is just as cognitive capable. One party claims lack of education and opportunity (structural racisim). The other claims lazy, culture, or loss of family values. The remedies either propose will not work. A large population of a higher mean is fed up being blamed for something that is not their fault and their tax money being spent to ends that will not work.
Glenn, I want to deny the reality that I heard you say that you're starting to have a hard time getting around. I just don't want that to be true. We need you around for as long as possible. Since I can't make it not true, I'm imploring you to take better care of your health. If you'll forgive me, I suspect that is an area of your life that could stand some improvement.
About the guy on the plane to me is not race but culture. I'm a Gen X white woman that lived just above 'stamps'. Not poor to not have nice Easter dresses but poor enough to only get Easter and Christmas dresses every year. Was taught I needed to be able to read but not taught educate myself on some other things I might find interesting.
excellent insights, but i would note: mr. mc whorter: i have more trust in the person sitting "in their mind" on a 7 hour flight than the inane waste of time i see most passengers (regardless of race) engage in. he may have been working calculus equations or working on a symphony, or novel, meditating praying or otherwise exercising his mind, while of the others, few read, and most fritter their time away on tiktok! you are stereotyping him as intellectually inactive due to his race and his physical inactivity. what about his mind/spirit?? my anecdotal observation as a flyer.
Re classical music, Porgy and Bess is a full blown opera with a Black American setting. We could use more of that. Also, Phillip Glass uses rhythmic repetition. So there is blending with lots of promise.
The root of the problem is culture. Asian kids whose parents immigrate to US from the poorest parts of Asia over-perform because their parents force them to study hard. They value education, when black and Latino parents don’t.
I am thinking the same thing. Maybe he’s an engineer and he has projects he’s working on with some sticky problems and he’s thinking about various solutions and running through the possible pros and cons of the ideas in his head and then thinking about the actual fabrication of the parts and the difficulties that could arise from…….. there are people whose brain is going 90 mph solving real problems while they sit there “dumbly” doing nothing.
IMO Glenn is perfectly right in saying, in essence as I hear him, that forcing "Equity" by discarding the tests or their results does not cut it, but is only degrading Blacks to a pitiful extent.
One retort to what John McWhorter said. He mentioned as a piece of anecdotal evidence that black folks are just as smart on average as others in how the fact Nigerian students are not put off by the SAT test and do okay on them, like any other student. However, what John is failing in this evidence, is, the Nigerian student that is taking this test in the USA, is likely the best of the best. In another words, John is comparing a Nigerian who wants to excel, who came to America because he or she is gifted enough, is one taking the test. So we are comparing top black Nigerians who are the cream of crop to the average native black student of America. This is apples to oranges. When an international student (black or white) goes to a university in America, it is because they are talented, wants to be educated, has that drive, has demonstrated enough competence. If John McWhorter wanted to use this evidence, he would need to compare international students of various races with blck international students Now I say all that, and I will be accused of, "Oh, are you one of those wyte people who think blck people are stupid or something?" No, I don't know if there is hereditary component or not, I'm simply pointing the flaw in John's thinking. My pointing out this flaw, doesn't show what my belief is one way or the other.
"why do I got to prove it" That's called pride. It can make all the difference in change and progress. Works like salt. To little ....falls apart. Too much...makes for bad or counter productive product.
Great show guys. Keep probing and challenging the tropes. And John, I still think you have a libertarian inside of you trying to get out. Take care gents.
Why do discussions and disagreements over the meaning and value of equity require universal acceptance? Why can't those who have the woke understanding of equity inhabit their academic and professional worlds, while the rest of us inhabit a world with a different understanding of equity? This assumes that neither side enlists the police powers of the government to impose a common understanding.
Isn't the final exam on how well a person performs the job they do? There must be a happy median that can be reached. I think considering the high standards human beings have set for ourselves, with our claim to be spiritual/religious and/or evolved/enlightened beings, challenges us to be more considerate of the disparities that exist among us. I wish the focus was put on the questions of what is a fair amount of compensation for a person's labor or contribution to a finished product, and in a competitive situation in which they will naturally be those who win and those who don't - how should society view those who don't and how should those who don't view themselves? It speaks to the value we place on each other and ourselves. The final point/question is, in a world of limited resources how much should one individual be allowed to amass? To ignore these fundamental questions for these other questions is not a sound approach to solving these pressing problems we face as a society.
The trade value of the product of your labor is not your value as a person. It is possible to be, and there are many actual instances of, a dignified virtuous loved and respected poor person. Stop having contempt for poverty. Poverty is a practical problem for the poor, not a moral one.
Equity promotes discrimination. It is dangerous and causes all types of societal problems. Does anyone not believe that giving special treatment to certain groups causes resentment of those discriminated against and as John stated, self doubt of those benefiting?
Kudos to John! Ask taxpayers to pay for test preparation -we are ready to pay! But to bring unprepared people to important positions - it does harm to everyone!
My issue with equity is also that it could discriminate against the very minorities it is supposed to help. If a city government has to reflect the demographic makeup of the US as a whole, it won't match the local demographics of that locality or region. I read somewhere black people are 15% of the US. But in some states or cities they might be 4% or 60%. It wouldn't make sense to have only 15% of black people in parts of the South known as the Black Belt. Also, on a hiring standard, I can't see this working out from a legal or HR standpoint. We have specific federal laws against discrimination based on race, ethnicity, gender, orientation, military status, disability, etc. and interviewers are not allowed to ask these questions.
You can limit racial inequities by fixing societal and environmental deficiencies such as fatherless homes, liberal orthodoxy of low expectations for blacks, school reform, and affirmative action. A higher percentage of inadequate mental capabilities that are unable to meet the demands of an increasingly technological society will be the largest problem in solving racial inequity if it can be solved. Accepting one's limitations is anathema to current racial thought.
Ad in everything, the answer is somewhere in the middle. Foe example, black should not have to wait for "culture" and opportunity to change in order to get more black physicians out there. Unless you think that the Asians and Whites are as likely to serve in our communities. There is nothing to say that the 4.0 students will make better doctors than the 3.3 students. The needs of society/communities should be considered unapologetically.
Culture is likely the main factor holding Blacks back, just as the worst parts of all cultures are holding people back whom make up the "street/criminal" parts of culture. Another disappointing example is that anecdotally the same African immigrants whom do well in USA, I'm assuming can more so be attributed to that their second generation aren't as assimilated into American Black culture yet, where doing well in study would be shamed, plus they don't quite "fit the part" yet as gangbangers etc, as measured against the genuine harder raised "real" American Blacks. Whereas in Australia however, the significant communities of African migrants have migrated to where the parents are majority hard-working mixture of everything from professionals through to cleaners and doing well. Regrettably though it seems that their children, the second generation, due to not having to assimilate into an existing Black gangbanger culture and risk being shown up, they are instead more easily filling the space of Black gangbangers as seen on TV by the youth and being looked up to by young Whites, as being the Australian Black Gangbangers. This along with the Liberal lighter touch they're getting from the Courts, is causing a crime wave of African Gangs in Australia Eastern Cities, committing serious home invasions, then being released as "Children" being they're typically from 13-19years of age. That same damn gangbanger part of culture is a big part of the rot and spreads its rot to all youth, it just seems that the darker a youth is, the more vulnerable to fitting the part they are, so they often do unfortunately for us all.
"Equity" (as currently conceptualized and being pushed in our society) strikes at the heart of the American ethos. Equality of opportunity is one of the foundational concepts on which American democracy has been built. Democracy is about participation, but under the equity framework the participation of those who oppose equity is dismissed out of hand when the person is white. Blacks that do not buy the equity scam may well be the only people who can save the country, and so I hope and pray that my fellow Americans who are black will continue to speak out, and in growing numbers.
I’m a black man who is an “Uncle Tom” and I’ve “lost” my black card on so many occasions. I don’t buy into the narratives that most blacks believe in today and that has made me a bit of an outcast. I agree- only black people can right this ship. I have hope because I’m seeing more and more black people have their eyes opened to this madness- thanks in large part to Thomas Sowell. While I don’t have an large following or platform, I will do what I can to spread the word.
I may catch flak if I keep saying this, yet the truth is I have personally already remixed the idea. DEI. Diversity of skills and experience. Excess of Opportunity. Inclusion of All. That is my opinion. I am neither politician nor a king. I am just a nerd.
@@truthseeker8844 I think I can only agree, only wish we [putatively] white people could help in some real way, probably by not interfering in silly unhelpful, self-serving ways. What is happening now, that I will lump in altogether by just calling it 'woke,' is just the worst: could we possibly have arrived at something more harmful and inane? Glenn Loury and Christopher Hitchens debated reparations and this you have to see, both for Glenn at his almighty thundering best and for what I think might be the only time Christopher a little cowed. Ultimately it seems sad that these two men were not in some 'design collaboration' rather than the dubious thing 'adversarial debate' as after all they weren't really much in disagreement.
@@py_a_thon haha, that's definitely a better acronym meaning than the one going on now. The inclusion for all, though. Mm, I don't know. Philosophically I run into conundrums with over emphasizing inclusivity or exclusivity. I think as a society we've just gone too far on the 'acceptance/inclusion' side instead of facing what seems to be reality in that for something to exist, it must include and exclude certain things.
Second to none... He's fooled me multiple times.... He'll go Stillman on John and It is remarkable how identical the languages. How difficult to logic is to the best that I've heard of their side which is Say much... That is the sign of a true intellectual, the ability to self-critique and to pick up the other side's argument and to present them best case... To prove their point but to make your argument better
Exactly right! It speaks so much to his eagerness to understand, and to not assume his own assumptions are superior. It also tends to bring out the best in his co-host.
@@filmjazz Yes... It is a remarkable skill... developed over decades... ... I can't wait to read his autobiography... We're going to get so much insight into... not what he has built up himself as his persona and character.... But what the storms of life have removed as chaff from his individuality his integrity his character.... You don't get to the point where you give the other side that much benefit for the doubt... Unless you Have a well. A deep well of humility... Gratitude... Patience.. not patience as if it's a finite resource.. patience as if it's a constant. It's always there...
I've always wondered if it was insulting. Seems like equity is so condescending like when you let your little brother win in the video game so he doesn't cry.
The problem with the cartoon with the short kid, the fence and the box is that you've made the short kid dependent on the box. Not only that, without the box the short kid is forced to look around for an alternate solution, perhaps a better solution like a gap in the fence or a gate left ajar. And maybe the real prize is in the experience of looking for alternate solutions which can be applied to more valuable problems than watching the game. All in all that's a very costly box, so costly it makes me question the "well meaning" aspect of it.
Why do you assume the box was given to the short kid. Why not assume the short kid went and obtained those boxes for the purpose of propping himself up. When you recognize your shortcomings, you try to work around them, compensate, to obtain the outcome you want to achieve.
@@eugenioguzman7449 It would be awesome if the kid found the box himself. But in that analogy the box WAS given to the child. That is the whole point…to defend government mandates of preferential treatment and lowered standards based on the idea that certain groups require that to perform at the same level as other groups and to achieve equal outcomes. It is meant to represent the mechanisms of forced equity…preferential hiring, preferential admission to schools, lowering standards to enable equal outcomes.
I love Johns polite snobby mannerisms, in a good way, because he's genuinely a very intelligent guy, a quality academic and rightfully is confident in his skin. Keep fighting against the dogma you guys and thank you
Me too. At first many years ago it rubbed me the wrong way, but now, as precise, intelligent and incisive as it may be, the vulnerability and genuineness makes his "polite snobby mannerisms" as you called them not at all arrogant or self-righteous. In fact, though I'm straight, it is sort of even cute! :)
That's culture. When u grow up being told that ur an uncle Tom or sellout if u love school instead of clothes, bling or everything else prominent in the ghetto u will unfortunately repeat the cycle unless u see the importance of education and investment. understand that u being black doesn't come with a way of life. If HAVING SOUL is what u r aiming for then learn how to have soul in a way that benefits urself and society. Well said guys.
This is rubbish 🗑. As a blaq genius I was respected by blaqs and obstructed by whytes from day one. Yoo R repeating the silli myths that have sustained yor laziness. Whyte intelligence is a myth which is being rapidly exposed.
10:47 equity is now part of the “newspeak” (read 1984). To avoid confusion, I now only use “equal opportunity” versus “equal outcome” to make sure what I am talking about is not misunderstood. 30:36 equal dignity, equal standing. This is what we truly need.
I mentioned this before, but I went to university to get a bachelors of science degree in Computer Science. Now the path to that degree of course involves computer classes, such programming, networking, operating systems, algorithms, etc.., but it also the curriculum requires you take a course in physics, calculus courses, discreet mathematics and other sciences and math courses. Now I'm not the brightest person, I struggled in those courses, but dedicated allot of time to studying, signed up to see math tutors on the campus available to all students and occasionally would see the teacher if I had a question on the course work. I say all that to say this, I put in the effort to get the degree. Now in all of those classes, I rarely saw native born black students in the class. I also rarely saw native born black students in the math tutor labs. I did see overseas black students, ones from Kenya another from Nigeria and places like that. So, maybe it is indeed a culture thing to explain why I didn't see many American black students in those courses.
Bingo. I experienced the same in the higher math course in community college and at a four year university the latter I worked at the engineering library. The number of Black Americans in majoring in engineering I could count on both hands and I wouldn't reach ten.
One fun fact on this topic is that black marriage rates used to be higher than white marriage rates during segregation. Which refutes talking points on either side: that the current state of black society is "innate" (ie genetic), and that the current state of black society is due to historical racial discrimination.
I've been investigating Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue. There was a time when classical European composers and black musicians were interested in a each other's music and learned from it. Rhapsody in Blue is based on a blues scale. In 1924, Gershwin didn't have the skill to orchestrate it. It was orchestrated by Grofé. And yet Gershwin improvised part of it. Later he made piano rolls of the full score, playing both the solo piano and orchestra parts. It's not jazz, but it's jazz-influenced. More in its first recording than in its later ones or the versions for symphony orchestra instead of jazz band. Gershwin was a member of a Russian Jewish immigrant family. And yet his popular songs provided much material later used by jazz. Music seems to be the field that's the least racist. And where levels of excellence are fairly self-evident. It may be apocryphal, but Charlie Parker had to pass a test. With the great jazz musicians of Kansas City. His first time out he flunked. The drummer threw a cymbal at him. He went home, studied, and didn't fail again.
I have to say regarding John's anecdote about the black guy on the airplane staring into space for 7 hours, that's me. I do nothing on flights except maybe watch the flight path. Flying is the one time I can turn off my brain and relax like perhaps nature intended. I'm a white guy who loves to read and study, but on planes I'm happily vegetable dip.
@@MichaelASchultz Yes, though he did add a lot of qualifiers. One thing I like about their conversations is that they *are* a conversation and not a lecture - thinking out loud, in real time, so you're bound to get it wrong sometimes, like anyone else.
which is why he said that he was probably out over the edge too much but he took that to think of other situations where we know this does happen. People without much interest in things.
@@MichaelASchultz I also thought his take on it was rather weak, as I thought of the turning one’s brain off need and possibility in this case. I personally do not behave like this - my brain is always going, needing something to do, unless I’m sleeping (and even this great need that is sleep often suffers because I find it hard to “turn it off”, which is quite terrible). I swear I even felt a bit envious of the guy of this anecdote that he was able to remain so “vegetable-like” indeed and maybe just “be” for a few hours. That is what went through my mind listening to John. However I give him the benefit of the doubt as he did use multiple qualifiers: he is obviously aware of his limited knowledge here. But I can respect that he openly shared a personal thought/assumption he made about a situation which could not be that far off in theory. I can respect his humanity and his candidness.
"Inequality" refers to a mathematical relationship as in "5+6 does not equal 12." Inequality" is objective and does not explain in itself the reason or the origin of the inequality. "Inequity" refers to an inequality that is the result of unfairness or injustice. Inequality is not evidence, much less proof, of inequity. Similarly, racial inequalities do not in themselves prove inequity or injustice.
To make it even more complicated, an inequality can have injustice as a necessary part of the origin story, but no longer be a necessary part of it. For example, if black people had immigrated here/been treated like Norwegian immigrants, I think it would be difficult to argue that we would see such disparate black inequalities on suffering metrics. But I am not sure how relevant that is to any modern solutions to problems. When I drive around South Tallahassee and see the typical demographics of deep south cities, I know our racial history has something to do with what I see and anyone who denies it I think is just afraid they are going to give comfort to woke ideology. But I think recognizing that is a far cry from saying "black murder rates are because of racism" or "higher black poverty rates are because of racism" or "proportionately few black people with high academic attainment is because of racism".
The box cartoon is a false representation of equity. Giving the short kid boxes is saying "We'll give you the extra help you need to overcome this barrier." That at least would be a positive action to help someone achieve. A more accurate drawing of equity would be to lower the fence for the shortest guy while leaving it in place for the taller one which is saying "We will lower or eliminate the obstacle for the least able of you but still require standards for those who can meet them."
Gentlemen, as always an interesting discussion. While I understand the focus of these conversations is a juxtaposition to the excesses of progressivism, I would love to hear more about the strengths of my black countrymen. Episodes that praise their true strengths and contributions may also be effective in blunting leftist excesses. Let them try to take on the strengths! Also, joined Substack… looking forward to it.
No one is an angel…. As to exoneration…. We are living with the residue of terrible crimes. There are still victims, but time has claimed the perpetrators. All the best to you.
Let’s get real: a poor black kid growing up in ghetto does not have the same starting point as the child of African immigrants who came here on work visas. The wealthier kid will also grow up with more stability, study resources, nutrition, guidance, tutoring, prep courses for standardized tests, better school, teachers, mentors, skill level of classmates, connection to job opportunities, ect. How are you guys reaching out to help these poor kids? We need some way of improving access for people of these backgrounds! There is a growing wealth and achievement gap. Cultural factors are one factor, but so is the legacy of segregation which only ended 50 years ago. On the other hand, I agree we should frame these concerns within common humanity and liberal order - not illiberal philosophies rooted in postmodernism like CRT. CRT wants to descontruct all discourse around power, complain constantly about white privilege, discourage blacks from recognizing opportunity, keep blacks from participating in sciences and humanities under normal values of western liberalism that they see as constructed by dead white elites, deny empiricism because it is supposedly constructed to maintain racial hierarchy, and overthrow the liberal order. And I also believe we should not leave poor white, Latino, and other kids out of the picture either.
Listening to these two men is an absolute joy. I always learn so much from both of their perspectives. Thank you for continuing to make these conversations available for people like me to learn from!
Part of me wants all this to be over, so we can all spend more time on positive things that interest us. But another part doesn't want to do without these conversations - you raise the bar. Thank you.
I suspect these two will be having these, conversation, a while longer. This ideology will not go away soon. I will look forward to hearing more from them.
![The Problem of Race with Glenn Loury [Bonus Episode]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tGLUk48u5l0/mqdefault.jpg)
![[UA] Eternal Fire проти NAVI | EPL Season 20 Malta](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/chvlsDygrZM/mqdefault.jpg)
This podcast is criminally underrated and overlooked. Glen and John bring a high quality to the subject matters they discuss.
I wake up every Tuesday looking forward to Glenns offerings. The more so when i know John is making a visit. Thanks guys.
The mind boggles!!
And not in a gud way.
The daily dose of cooning.
@@ondolite3789 😊lll
@@ondolite3789 I always look forward to checking the replies under a Glenn video and seeing your incoherent, empty, and meaningless jabber!
@filmjazz And I look forward to yoo looking forward!
Thx for this kind tribute.
Exactly! Classical music doesn’t need to change to fit anyone’s agenda. It is amazing in itself
I restore brain cells watching The Glenn Show. 😁 The best discussion between two very intelligent blk man that is becoming an anomaly these days Keep up the great podcast 🙏
Two great thinkers.
Love McWhorter’s point on equity being a “dumbing down” AfroAmerican intelligence and capacity. His anger is palpable and I so agree with him. Love his forthrightness!
African Americans have to be portrayed as dumb in America's disgusting war on blaqs.
Yoo are equally disgusting.
Equality of opportunity would be to increase funding of education and after school programs with funnels to various schools to match the current ability of the student to allow more people to get the correct and managable levels of education that can lead to social economic development of communities. Bring in more career and skill development opportunities.
@@screenmonkey Equality of opportunity would be the end of whyte America.
@@ondolite3789 goofy
Glenn and John's discussions are always so interesting and fruitful because everything is on the table. Both sides of the argument are examined without rancour, which is lacking in most debating although that has it's place.
21:00 - Preach it John! You are solidly on point. Not a pleasant thing to hear, an hideously unpleasant thing to say, think, and leverage for political gain. It is grotesque. Individuals of all groups have that "born dumb" thing, which simply means they have a different skill set. They should be encouraged to develop and build that skillset not given a spot to fill a box in an incompatible field for Equity's sake.
Thank you fellas for your work. I appreciate both of you. Peace~
I directed a medical school clinical clerkship at the University of Minnesota Medical School. I recall when the vice dean stated to an assembly of everyone who was directing the clinical rotations and stating as fact, "Standardized tests are racist, and we are going to do away with them."
I was astounded by the implication that black, hispanic, and indigenous students were some how genetically incapable at performing at the same level as white, south/east asian students. I tried to raise the objection that we are rather uncovering down stream effects rather than true genetic differences and too assert otherwise seems incredibly racist.
There was no appetite to dissent. In my experience you are correct that there is a deep sense of urgency that we need to make the changes NOW. Any fallout from changing/lowering standards will be overcome by the improvement in cultural understanding and the workforce reflecting the population to a greater degree.
What I don't think many people have thought about is that east/south asians are incredibly over represented within medicine when you look at the demographics of Minnesota in particular. It will be interesting to see how this splinters from a specific focus on POC to BIPOC mentality, likely splintering the activism further.
Rural students are needed in med schools to fill a pipeline of MDs who will want to practice in rural areas. However, "need" should not trump merit. I studied alongside a group of med students who came in thru a rural pathway program (Nebr); all performed well. The upstream (merit) affects the downstream (results). Furthermore, if these rural students hadn't been selected on merit & had performed poorly as a group, there would've been resentment from fellow students.
Having the baseline intelligence necessary to complete an MD, JD, Pharm D, etc. is essential, but not enough. The other essential component is ambition / discipline / effort. We can look up to high performers with curiosity & respect (how can I become more like them??) or with resentment & jealousy. What matters most in medicine is the best care for the patient, not the ego or feelings of the provider.
You are 100% correct about the NOW. I've been taking the passive approach, but had a reawakening after viewing the proceedings of Stanford's "Academic Freedom Conference" (4-5 Nov 2022). I highly recommend it! ua-cam.com/play/PLQy2zhWqTFZ5Thzz1tE8dhWWTRUTQzaIZ.html
I think Africans in the UK are doing better than whites educationally. But they're highly selected for IQ, wealth and culture. And likely benefit from forms of positive discrimination along the way.
Africa has an average IQ of around 73. It is what it is.
In the 1980's, Dr. Kuwanza Kunjufu (his lecture: "To Be Popular or To Be Smart" is available on UA-cam) reported that the number of hours each U.S. ethnic group studied for the SAT/wk was enumerated as follows ( as of 1988):
Asians - 12 hrs a week
Whites - 8 hrs/ week
Blacks - 5 hrs/wk while we watch more television than any other US ethnic group.
I tested this theory on one of my nephews. He had a 4.0 GPA BUT - like many high GPA native born AA students - took the SAT at the beginning of his 11th grade yr and scored in the low 900s due to minimal prep. I presented the above statistics to him and challenged him to take a prep class and to practice by taking each round of 9 practice tests in his Prep manual a minimum of 3 times under real conditions for 12 weeks prior to taking the test a second time. His results: He increased his score from the low 900s to a 1350. Earned Bill/Mel. Gates scholarship and graduated from a top 20 university. What's the moral here? John and Glen are absolutely right. It's downright insulting that standards should be lowered for us.
I love to listen to classical/symphonic music especially when working. It is good for concentration.
It's criminal that there are C-level reactors/game streamers on here with more followers than this brilliant man and his channel.
Thank you for talking about the box for the short ones … makes me sick every time I see it 😆
Glenn too, was on, and he too did a wonderful job!
13:38 wow, this is EXACTLY what it is.
The pressure to bridge the racial disparities in achievement has become so intense that it can only be accomplished by mandates rather than merit. Silencing the equity drums for a generation or two can enable true and sustainable progress the old fashioned way, but a whole lot of drummers would be out of a job, so what are the chances?
17:00. John's case for equity is Sowell's "cosmic justice."
Again the problem I always have with McWhorter's take on this aspect of the racial equity topic is that while yes he's right that woke policy is condescending to black people in some ways (i.e. you're not able to get it done on your own so we need to have special race-based rules to help you) the reality is that woke, so-called progressive equity policies are much more detrimental to working class white people. It's lower income whites who will be excluded from opportunities due to notions of white privilege. Yes blacks are somewhat being condescended to, but the white guy's being told, you're privileged, you're also racist just by being who you are so you don't get a job. Sorry but that's way worse.
You make a good point that far too many people are afraid to talk about. That being that if opportunities are wholly or even partially based on race, gender, and/or sexual orientation etc. that opens the door for the possibility of the denial of those same opportunities based on race, gender, and/or sexual orientation etc. Equal Opportunity Employment laws are supposed to protect ALL applicants from being discriminated against based on race, gender, and/or sexual orientation etc. I don't think I'm going out on a limb to suggest that these laws are not being entirely and properly enforced.
@@mjm5081 Agreed, Jim Crow ended after 1965. Special privileges and assistance programs in 2023 and beyond should be based on actual proof of economic need regardless of ethnic background or gender etc.
@@bozeeke Agreed.
It is a worse problem but it is also a worse talking point. Those people have already declared it impossible to be racist to white people so pointing out how they are being racist towards white people is not going to have any affect on them. McWhorter pointing out how they are hurting the people they claim to care about might at least make them pause.
@@williamjenkins4913 I disagree. The only way to change opinions is to bring the truth into the discussion whether the censorious people on the other side like it or not. I've watched for 30 years as the 'I hate whitey' nonsense went from a fringe ideological viewpoint held by fringe characters like Farrakhan, to now it's being incorporated into the mainstream via commentators like Michael Eric Dyson and Joy Reid etc. Another 20-30 years of self-censorship on the part of white people in the face of continuingly more incendiary racial rhetoric will lead to far worse. The 2045-2050 version of Michael Eric Dyson, Ibraim Kendi etc., whoever that individual may be, will likely be running a concentration camp that exterminates the people he hates rather than just complaining about them on TV.
These guys warm my heart...
New to this show. 2nd episode. I like how candid these guys are. John admits he failed on TV. And of course, intelligent, well-spoken people.
I'm an old Orthodox Christian priest and I love you guys even when John disses religion 😀
Same as the serbs?
I always enjoy Glenn and John's discussions. Re: Equity/Equality... The best description I've heard is along the lines of "equality is the push for equal opportunity, equity is the push for equal outcomes".
I wish there was some way to follow the descendants of Southern Whites so that we could compare how they are doing compared to Blacks who are, after all, mostly Southern in background. People remember how Southern Blacks tested less well than whites on IQ tests in WWI. People forget that Southern Whites also tested badly at that time, less well than Northern Blacks.
The fact that most Black ancestors were forcibly assimilated by one of the three lowest achieving subcultures in the US may be a significant factor in differences in academic achievement.
Hookworm was likely a factor then
@annarboriter Yes, hookworm and malaria as causes of childhood anemia contribute to a permanent lowering of the IQ. Additionally, iodine deficiency causes similar problems. Still, the fact that most slaves were assimilated into one of the three least achievement oriented subcultures in the US is likely to have generational effects. This is why I would like to compare and contrast White Southerners and their descendants. The trick is how to differentiate between the descendants of White Southerners outside of the South and White Northerners today.
@@joanhuffman2166 Pellagra and rickets certainly are other factors in early childhood development, which few today can remember but it's only hookworm that was limited by geography
@annarboriter malaria was endemic in the US South until the government began putting in dams. Mosquito control was and is a big part of how they are operated. Pellegra was an issue in the South. The South had the poverty that caused people to rely on mostly corn for their diet. (Alas, too few, remembered that Indians added a little ash to their corn, which is sufficient to nixtamalize the corn and unlock the niacin.)
Iodine deficiency was an issue in parts of the South (Appalachia).
John did some great gags on Maher
You two 'hit it out of the park'.
"Standards are relative?" The consummate oxymoron. The only motivation behind relativism is so the people pushing it can never be held accountable for not measuring up to the standard.
The story John gave about the guy on the flight is true of many working class people, white or black.
This podcast was especially rich. A feast for the mind.
Critical, analytical thinking is a challenge for many. Most people are into story telling that supports prior beliefs.
I'm white. My parents didn't have a 8th grade education. Neither had good hand writing. They both could read. My dad did math in his head, when helping us with homework. We didn't have kindergarten. I started 1st grade at 5. I knew how to read. I struggled with math. We took the tests once a year. I can't sit down without something to read if I don't have have company. I think the War on Poverty helped some things in Southern Appalachia such as the Headstart centers. They also started preschools, my first real job was in the one of the preschool centers in the early 70's. Women that needed help couldn't get it if their husband was in the home.
Equity ensures the eventual "mediocritization" of everything it touches.
Since teachers teach to the test nowadays, it's absolutely a mistake to lower standards, especially in English. I was a good all-rounder in school and now think it was my strength in English and having read a lot since very young that helped in every other subject. I am from a working-class background in the north of England and my Mum would NEVER have accepted poor grammar ("we was" instead of "we were", as is typical where we live).
It seems like we're being led to believe that by elevating 'The Golden Unicorn' that is the most vulnerable person, we're fixing the problem of equality.
The reality of this is it means our governments only need to help a tiny minority to look virtuous & succeed. Forced equity will undoubtedly destroy all fields of study if left unchecked. The fact is, different people are drawn to different interests. The internet & AI will hopefully help solve more racial issues than they cause.
MSM needs to be far more responsible & lead by a good example rather than by mob rule. The human ear can only hear the word 'crisis' so often til it falls deaf.
I’m glad to see that you are getting some some sponsors ! However, I feel your like the one white guy in the NBA.
Equity means picking winners and losers
I❤ John McWhorter !
You guys should have Zakiya Dalila Harris on the show. She wrote "The Other Black Girl", which was eventually turned into a Hulu series. She said in an interview that she's into black individualism and grey areas. She also said that it's necessary to have both the "call out" ("woke") and "compromising" crowd. Anyway, I think she's interesting and you all could have a great conversation.
Because of the barriers to immigration, (cost and time) the people who immigrate are right tailed people and thus more successful. Assuming cognitive ability is hereditary (with regression to the mean) the direct descendants will be near right tailed and more successful.
Were slaves that were caught, sold, and shipped in the 17th and 18th century people from the left tail? Are their descendants hampered by that hereditary?
If in a population, right tailed people only parent kids with other right tailed people and left tailed people procreate the same, two populations will emerge with different means. If the left tailed people are having more kids, the mean of the population as a whole will decrease.
The cognitive elete on the right tails of any race don't deal with the left tailed people, or people between the tails of a lesser mean and thus cannot recognize the problem.
However, people between the tails of a group of a higher mean interact regularly with the people to the left and center of a group with a lesser mean. The intellectuals can never convince the former that the latter is just as cognitive capable.
One party claims lack of education and opportunity (structural racisim). The other claims lazy, culture, or loss of family values.
The remedies either propose will not work.
A large population of a higher mean is fed up being blamed for something that is not their fault and their tax money being spent to ends that will not work.
But when they compare African people and Asian people - as in, non. Americans - there are still huge differences. So something else is going on
Hope I look busy enough to satisfy on my next flight.
Glenn, I want to deny the reality that I heard you say that you're starting to have a hard time getting around. I just don't want that to be true. We need you around for as long as possible. Since I can't make it not true, I'm imploring you to take better care of your health. If you'll forgive me, I suspect that is an area of your life that could stand some improvement.
I'm reading Kenan Malik's Not So Black and White. Maybe you can get him on the show?
The black guy from Cleveland on the plane sounds like Putty from Seinfeld.
About the guy on the plane to me is not race but culture. I'm a Gen X white woman that lived just above 'stamps'. Not poor to not have nice Easter dresses but poor enough to only get Easter and Christmas dresses every year. Was taught I needed to be able to read but not taught educate myself on some other things I might find interesting.
I believe John is a very accomplished student of the great Shelby Steel.
excellent insights, but i would note:
mr. mc whorter:
i have more trust in the person sitting "in their mind" on a 7 hour flight than the inane waste of time i see most passengers (regardless of race) engage in. he may have been working calculus equations or working on a symphony, or novel, meditating praying or otherwise exercising his mind, while of the others, few read, and most fritter their time away on tiktok! you are stereotyping him as intellectually inactive due to his race and his physical inactivity. what about his mind/spirit??
my anecdotal observation as a flyer.
My good friend, Alicia Waller @AliciaEnvivo, would be a great guest to have on to discuss the issue of black voices in classical music.
Re classical music, Porgy and Bess is a full blown opera with a Black American setting. We could use more of that. Also, Phillip Glass uses rhythmic repetition. So there is blending with lots of promise.
Glenn, you’re not too old to get in shape.
The root of the problem is culture. Asian kids whose parents immigrate to US from the poorest parts of Asia over-perform because their parents force them to study hard. They value education, when black and Latino parents don’t.
Isn't it possible that the guy on the plane just had enough entertainment going on in his own head?
I am thinking the same thing. Maybe he’s an engineer and he has projects he’s working on with some sticky problems and he’s thinking about various solutions and running through the possible pros and cons of the ideas in his head and then thinking about the actual fabrication of the parts and the difficulties that could arise from…….. there are people whose brain is going 90 mph solving real problems while they sit there “dumbly” doing nothing.
Equity reminds me of margarine, it looks kind of like butter but it's just plastic food. Thank you for expressing your views, gentlemen.
This is one of the richest conversations they've had in a while. There's a lot to digest in this one, for sure.
Same old stuff realli.
IMO Glenn is perfectly right in saying, in essence as I hear him, that forcing "Equity" by discarding the tests or their results does not cut it, but is only degrading Blacks to a pitiful extent.
One retort to what John McWhorter said. He mentioned as a piece of anecdotal evidence that black folks are just as smart on average as others in how the fact Nigerian students are not put off by the SAT test and do okay on them, like any other student. However, what John is failing in this evidence, is, the Nigerian student that is taking this test in the USA, is likely the best of the best. In another words, John is comparing a Nigerian who wants to excel, who came to America because he or she is gifted enough, is one taking the test. So we are comparing top black Nigerians who are the cream of crop to the average native black student of America. This is apples to oranges. When an international student (black or white) goes to a university in America, it is because they are talented, wants to be educated, has that drive, has demonstrated enough competence. If John McWhorter wanted to use this evidence, he would need to compare international students of various races with blck international students
Now I say all that, and I will be accused of, "Oh, are you one of those wyte people who think blck people are stupid or something?" No, I don't know if there is hereditary component or not, I'm simply pointing the flaw in John's thinking. My pointing out this flaw, doesn't show what my belief is one way or the other.
What are your thoughts on ending affirmative action?
You still said it
"why do I got to prove it"
That's called pride.
It can make all the difference in change and progress. Works like salt. To little ....falls apart. Too much...makes for bad or counter productive product.
Great show guys. Keep probing and challenging the tropes.
And John, I still think you have a libertarian inside of you trying to get out.
Take care gents.
Why do discussions and disagreements over the meaning and value of equity require universal acceptance? Why can't those who have the woke understanding of equity inhabit their academic and professional worlds, while the rest of us inhabit a world with a different understanding of equity? This assumes that neither side enlists the police powers of the government to impose a common understanding.
The phrase is bag of hair, not box of hair.
Isn't the final exam on how well a person performs the job they do? There must be a happy median that can be reached. I think considering the high standards human beings have set for ourselves, with our claim to be spiritual/religious and/or evolved/enlightened beings, challenges us to be more considerate of the disparities that exist among us. I wish the focus was put on the questions of what is a fair amount of compensation for a person's labor or contribution to a finished product, and in a competitive situation in which they will naturally be those who win and those who don't - how should society view those who don't and how should those who don't view themselves? It speaks to the value we place on each other and ourselves. The final point/question is, in a world of limited resources how much should one individual be allowed to amass? To ignore these fundamental questions for these other questions is not a sound approach to solving these pressing problems we face as a society.
The trade value of the product of your labor is not your value as a person. It is possible to be, and there are many actual instances of, a dignified virtuous loved and respected poor person. Stop having contempt for poverty.
Poverty is a practical problem for the poor, not a moral one.
Promise me next episode we'll receive a comprehensive demonstration and evaluation of John's dancing abilities or lack there of. lol!
Is this an episode about how wonderful black people are? Now let me watch...
23:05 Do Native born “Black” and Hispanic people’s value the three R’s? Reading 📖 , Writing ✍️ and Arithmetic 🧮➕➖➗✖️
Equity promotes discrimination. It is dangerous and causes all types of societal problems. Does anyone not believe that giving special treatment to certain groups causes resentment of those discriminated against and as John stated, self doubt of those benefiting?
Mcwhorter eff bomb @ 20:57
I got a kick out of that! 👍
@@mjm5081 It's somehow more shocking from John's mouth xD
@@onepartyroule Agree. I was NOT expecting that from him 😆
"Whose" standard is always the wrong question.
The question is: what is THE Standard? For almost every possible field, there is only The Standard.
B = 85, W = 100, A = 105+ Follow the science.
John McWhorter sounded more like John the Baptist today!! 😂🤣⛪
Kudos to John! Ask taxpayers to pay for test preparation -we are ready to pay! But to bring unprepared people to important positions - it does harm to everyone!
Playing second fiddle to George Carlin ain't failing!
These lovely men need a little Dr. Gates to shake things up.
My issue with equity is also that it could discriminate against the very minorities it is supposed to help. If a city government has to reflect the demographic makeup of the US as a whole, it won't match the local demographics of that locality or region. I read somewhere black people are 15% of the US. But in some states or cities they might be 4% or 60%. It wouldn't make sense to have only 15% of black people in parts of the South known as the Black Belt. Also, on a hiring standard, I can't see this working out from a legal or HR standpoint. We have specific federal laws against discrimination based on race, ethnicity, gender, orientation, military status, disability, etc. and interviewers are not allowed to ask these questions.
You can limit racial inequities by fixing societal and environmental deficiencies such as fatherless homes, liberal orthodoxy of low expectations for blacks, school reform, and affirmative action. A higher percentage of inadequate mental capabilities that are unable to meet the demands of an increasingly technological society will be the largest problem in solving racial inequity if it can be solved. Accepting one's limitations is anathema to current racial thought.
41:17 Sound Field youtube.com/@SoundFieldPBS will likely push that narrative!
Ad in everything, the answer is somewhere in the middle. Foe example, black should not have to wait for "culture" and opportunity to change in order to get more black physicians out there. Unless you think that the Asians and Whites are as likely to serve in our communities. There is nothing to say that the 4.0 students will make better doctors than the 3.3 students. The needs of society/communities should be considered unapologetically.
Culture is likely the main factor holding Blacks back, just as the worst parts of all cultures are holding people back whom make up the "street/criminal" parts of culture. Another disappointing example is that anecdotally the same African immigrants whom do well in USA, I'm assuming can more so be attributed to that their second generation aren't as assimilated into American Black culture yet, where doing well in study would be shamed, plus they don't quite "fit the part" yet as gangbangers etc, as measured against the genuine harder raised "real" American Blacks.
Whereas in Australia however, the significant communities of African migrants have migrated to where the parents are majority hard-working mixture of everything from professionals through to cleaners and doing well. Regrettably though it seems that their children, the second generation, due to not having to assimilate into an existing Black gangbanger culture and risk being shown up, they are instead more easily filling the space of Black gangbangers as seen on TV by the youth and being looked up to by young Whites, as being the Australian Black Gangbangers. This along with the Liberal lighter touch they're getting from the Courts, is causing a crime wave of African Gangs in Australia Eastern Cities, committing serious home invasions, then being released as "Children" being they're typically from 13-19years of age.
That same damn gangbanger part of culture is a big part of the rot and spreads its rot to all youth, it just seems that the darker a youth is, the more vulnerable to fitting the part they are, so they often do unfortunately for us all.
"Equity" (as currently conceptualized and being pushed in our society) strikes at the heart of the American ethos. Equality of opportunity is one of the foundational concepts on which American democracy has been built. Democracy is about participation, but under the equity framework the participation of those who oppose equity is dismissed out of hand when the person is white. Blacks that do not buy the equity scam may well be the only people who can save the country, and so I hope and pray that my fellow Americans who are black will continue to speak out, and in growing numbers.
I’m a black man who is an “Uncle Tom” and I’ve “lost” my black card on so many occasions. I don’t buy into the narratives that most blacks believe in today and that has made me a bit of an outcast. I agree- only black people can right this ship. I have hope because I’m seeing more and more black people have their eyes opened to this madness- thanks in large part to Thomas Sowell. While I don’t have an large following or platform, I will do what I can to spread the word.
I may catch flak if I keep saying this, yet the truth is I have personally already remixed the idea.
DEI.
Diversity of skills and experience.
Excess of Opportunity.
Inclusion of All.
That is my opinion. I am neither politician nor a king. I am just a nerd.
What’s your understanding of equity as currently conceptualized and pushed? Like, an honest take, not a political caricature.
@@truthseeker8844 I think I can only agree, only wish we [putatively] white people could help in some real way, probably by not interfering in silly unhelpful, self-serving ways. What is happening now, that I will lump in altogether by just calling it 'woke,' is just the worst: could we possibly have arrived at something more harmful and inane? Glenn Loury and Christopher Hitchens debated reparations and this you have to see, both for Glenn at his almighty thundering best and for what I think might be the only time Christopher a little cowed. Ultimately it seems sad that these two men were not in some 'design collaboration' rather than the dubious thing 'adversarial debate' as after all they weren't really much in disagreement.
@@py_a_thon haha, that's definitely a better acronym meaning than the one going on now. The inclusion for all, though. Mm, I don't know. Philosophically I run into conundrums with over emphasizing inclusivity or exclusivity. I think as a society we've just gone too far on the 'acceptance/inclusion' side instead of facing what seems to be reality in that for something to exist, it must include and exclude certain things.
Said it before, will say it again: Glenn's ability to steel man the arguments of the other side is unparalleled. Great discussion!
his use of cognitive empathy is truly one of his best gifts
Second to none... He's fooled me multiple times.... He'll go Stillman on John and It is remarkable how identical the languages. How difficult to logic is to the best that I've heard of their side which is Say much... That is the sign of a true intellectual, the ability to self-critique and to pick up the other side's argument and to present them best case... To prove their point but to make your argument better
@@Say_When Sometimes he even argues the other side's positions more concisely than the people who are actually on the other side of the argument!
Exactly right! It speaks so much to his eagerness to understand, and to not assume his own assumptions are superior. It also tends to bring out the best in his co-host.
@@filmjazz Yes... It is a remarkable skill... developed over decades... ... I can't wait to read his autobiography... We're going to get so much insight into... not what he has built up himself as his persona and character.... But what the storms of life have removed as chaff from his individuality his integrity his character.... You don't get to the point where you give the other side that much benefit for the doubt... Unless you Have a well. A deep well of humility... Gratitude... Patience.. not patience as if it's a finite resource.. patience as if it's a constant. It's always there...
Equity =Lower Standards. Well Said Guys.
I've always wondered if it was insulting. Seems like equity is so condescending like when you let your little brother win in the video game so he doesn't cry.
The problem with the cartoon with the short kid, the fence and the box is that you've made the short kid dependent on the box. Not only that, without the box the short kid is forced to look around for an alternate solution, perhaps a better solution like a gap in the fence or a gate left ajar. And maybe the real prize is in the experience of looking for alternate solutions which can be applied to more valuable problems than watching the game. All in all that's a very costly box, so costly it makes me question the "well meaning" aspect of it.
Why do you assume the box was given to the short kid. Why not assume the short kid went and obtained those boxes for the purpose of propping himself up. When you recognize your shortcomings, you try to work around them, compensate, to obtain the outcome you want to achieve.
@@eugenioguzman7449 Because the whole point of the story is an analogy for welfare, generally.
Interesting. So supplying the box may lead to learned helplessness.
@@eugenioguzman7449 It would be awesome if the kid found the box himself. But in that analogy the box WAS given to the child. That is the whole point…to defend government mandates of preferential treatment and lowered standards based on the idea that certain groups require that to perform at the same level as other groups and to achieve equal outcomes. It is meant to represent the mechanisms of forced equity…preferential hiring, preferential admission to schools, lowering standards to enable equal outcomes.
Very well reasoned analogy
I love Johns polite snobby mannerisms, in a good way, because he's genuinely a very intelligent guy, a quality academic and rightfully is confident in his skin. Keep fighting against the dogma you guys and thank you
Me too. At first many years ago it rubbed me the wrong way, but now, as precise, intelligent and incisive as it may be, the vulnerability and genuineness makes his "polite snobby mannerisms" as you called them not at all arrogant or self-righteous. In fact, though I'm straight, it is sort of even cute! :)
The professor is an excellent role model.
Yes! Keep working to keep blacks down. The KKK loves you.🤗
In other words he's arrogant and opinionated
I hope you don't mean "Uppity"!! ... ; ).
That's culture.
When u grow up being told that ur an uncle Tom or sellout if u love school instead of clothes, bling or everything else prominent in the ghetto u will unfortunately repeat the cycle unless u see the importance of education and investment. understand that u being black doesn't come with a way of life. If HAVING SOUL is what u r aiming for then learn how to have soul in a way that benefits urself and society.
Well said guys.
This is rubbish 🗑.
As a blaq genius I was respected by blaqs and obstructed by whytes from day one.
Yoo R repeating the silli myths that have sustained yor laziness.
Whyte intelligence is a myth which is being rapidly exposed.
You cannot acquire soul.
Whytes crave this soul.
Yoo R as ridiculous as Lousy and McWorthless.
@@ondolite3789 I’m Tyrone!! Go away!! The adults are talking!! Don’t you have some safe space to go relax at??
@Mitch Peter Poor stuff here, fella.
I am 56 and VERY experienced.
@Mitch Peter The post does not relate to real life and is veri insulting.
I hav a rite to refute this nonsense.
I'm still trying to deal with Glenn not knowing where Antwerp is
10:47 equity is now part of the “newspeak” (read 1984).
To avoid confusion, I now only use “equal opportunity” versus “equal outcome” to make sure what I am talking about is not misunderstood.
30:36 equal dignity, equal standing. This is what we truly need.
You're right Glenn, if this podcast is any indication of John's performance on the Bill Maher show then he was absolutely masterful.
I mentioned this before, but I went to university to get a bachelors of science degree in Computer Science. Now the path to that degree of course involves computer classes, such programming, networking, operating systems, algorithms, etc.., but it also the curriculum requires you take a course in physics, calculus courses, discreet mathematics and other sciences and math courses. Now I'm not the brightest person, I struggled in those courses, but dedicated allot of time to studying, signed up to see math tutors on the campus available to all students and occasionally would see the teacher if I had a question on the course work.
I say all that to say this, I put in the effort to get the degree. Now in all of those classes, I rarely saw native born black students in the class. I also rarely saw native born black students in the math tutor labs. I did see overseas black students, ones from Kenya another from Nigeria and places like that. So, maybe it is indeed a culture thing to explain why I didn't see many American black students in those courses.
Bingo. I experienced the same in the higher math course in community college and at a four year university the latter I worked at the engineering library. The number of Black Americans in majoring in engineering I could count on both hands and I wouldn't reach ten.
Lol how many black people did you have at your school to begin with? That’s a better question lol this is a safe space for pale faces I see
I wonder what the result would be if the standardized tests were evaluated, not by race, but by if there is a father in the home.
One fun fact on this topic is that black marriage rates used to be higher than white marriage rates during segregation.
Which refutes talking points on either side: that the current state of black society is "innate" (ie genetic), and that the current state of black society is due to historical racial discrimination.
I've been investigating Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue. There was a time when classical European composers and black musicians were interested in a each other's music and learned from it. Rhapsody in Blue is based on a blues scale. In 1924, Gershwin didn't have the skill to orchestrate it. It was orchestrated by Grofé. And yet Gershwin improvised part of it. Later he made piano rolls of the full score, playing both the solo piano and orchestra parts. It's not jazz, but it's jazz-influenced. More in its first recording than in its later ones or the versions for symphony orchestra instead of jazz band. Gershwin was a member of a Russian Jewish immigrant family. And yet his popular songs provided much material later used by jazz. Music seems to be the field that's the least racist. And where levels of excellence are fairly self-evident. It may be apocryphal, but Charlie Parker had to pass a test. With the great jazz musicians of Kansas City. His first time out he flunked. The drummer threw a cymbal at him. He went home, studied, and didn't fail again.
Based Glenn being based (common)
I have to say regarding John's anecdote about the black guy on the airplane staring into space for 7 hours, that's me. I do nothing on flights except maybe watch the flight path. Flying is the one time I can turn off my brain and relax like perhaps nature intended. I'm a white guy who loves to read and study, but on planes I'm happily vegetable dip.
Me too (white woman). I generally sort of zen out, looking out the window. Thinking, but not doing.
In all the years I've been listening to JMW (I'm a huge fan), Ive never heard him miss worse than this. Really a lame claim/point/observation.
@@MichaelASchultz Yes, though he did add a lot of qualifiers. One thing I like about their conversations is that they *are* a conversation and not a lecture - thinking out loud, in real time, so you're bound to get it wrong sometimes, like anyone else.
which is why he said that he was probably out over the edge too much but he took that to think of other situations where we know this does happen. People without much interest in things.
@@MichaelASchultz I also thought his take on it was rather weak, as I thought of the turning one’s brain off need and possibility in this case. I personally do not behave like this - my brain is always going, needing something to do, unless I’m sleeping (and even this great need that is sleep often suffers because I find it hard to “turn it off”, which is quite terrible). I swear I even felt a bit envious of the guy of this anecdote that he was able to remain so “vegetable-like” indeed and maybe just “be” for a few hours.
That is what went through my mind listening to John. However I give him the benefit of the doubt as he did use multiple qualifiers: he is obviously aware of his limited knowledge here. But I can respect that he openly shared a personal thought/assumption he made about a situation which could not be that far off in theory. I can respect his humanity and his candidness.
"Inequality" refers to a mathematical relationship as in "5+6 does not equal 12." Inequality" is objective and does not explain in itself the reason or the origin of the inequality. "Inequity" refers to an inequality that is the result of unfairness or injustice. Inequality is not evidence, much less proof, of inequity. Similarly, racial inequalities do not in themselves prove inequity or injustice.
To make it even more complicated, an inequality can have injustice as a necessary part of the origin story, but no longer be a necessary part of it. For example, if black people had immigrated here/been treated like Norwegian immigrants, I think it would be difficult to argue that we would see such disparate black inequalities on suffering metrics. But I am not sure how relevant that is to any modern solutions to problems. When I drive around South Tallahassee and see the typical demographics of deep south cities, I know our racial history has something to do with what I see and anyone who denies it I think is just afraid they are going to give comfort to woke ideology. But I think recognizing that is a far cry from saying "black murder rates are because of racism" or "higher black poverty rates are because of racism" or "proportionately few black people with high academic attainment is because of racism".
The box cartoon is a false representation of equity. Giving the short kid boxes is saying "We'll give you the extra help you need to overcome this barrier." That at least would be a positive action to help someone achieve. A more accurate drawing of equity would be to lower the fence for the shortest guy while leaving it in place for the taller one which is saying "We will lower or eliminate the obstacle for the least able of you but still require standards for those who can meet them."
This is one of the best conversations these two have had, which is saying something.
Gentlemen, as always an interesting discussion. While I understand the focus of these conversations is a juxtaposition to the excesses of progressivism, I would love to hear more about the strengths of my black countrymen. Episodes that praise their true strengths and contributions may also be effective in blunting leftist excesses. Let them try to take on the strengths! Also, joined Substack… looking forward to it.
There’s a podcast called the invisible men, which is about that. Very enlightening and uplifting.
The focus of these conversations is to exonerate whytes and ridicule the idea that they might not be angels.
No one is an angel…. As to exoneration…. We are living with the residue of terrible crimes. There are still victims, but time has claimed the perpetrators.
All the best to you.
Hello, btw…. I didn’t recognize you at first (sorry). Hope all is well.
@@northwards2218 Yoo have a much calmer spirit than myself.
Let’s get real: a poor black kid growing up in ghetto does not have the same starting point as the child of African immigrants who came here on work visas. The wealthier kid will also grow up with more stability, study resources, nutrition, guidance, tutoring, prep courses for standardized tests, better school, teachers, mentors, skill level of classmates, connection to job opportunities, ect. How are you guys reaching out to help these poor kids? We need some way of improving access for people of these backgrounds! There is a growing wealth and achievement gap. Cultural factors are one factor, but so is the legacy of segregation which only ended 50 years ago.
On the other hand, I agree we should frame these concerns within common humanity and liberal order - not illiberal philosophies rooted in postmodernism like CRT. CRT wants to descontruct all discourse around power, complain constantly about white privilege, discourage blacks from recognizing opportunity, keep blacks from participating in sciences and humanities under normal values of western liberalism that they see as constructed by dead white elites, deny empiricism because it is supposedly constructed to maintain racial hierarchy, and overthrow the liberal order. And I also believe we should not leave poor white, Latino, and other kids out of the picture either.
Listening to these two men is an absolute joy. I always learn so much from both of their perspectives. Thank you for continuing to make these conversations available for people like me to learn from!
Part of me wants all this to be over, so we can all spend more time on positive things that interest us. But another part doesn't want to do without these conversations - you raise the bar. Thank you.
I had the same thought today. Makes you momentarily sympathize with the grifters on the far left. Smh
I suspect these two will be having these, conversation, a while longer. This ideology will not go away soon. I will look forward to hearing more from them.
What a treat to get to listen to you guys for free!