Talking Back, Talking Black | John McWhorter | Talks at Google
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- Опубліковано 9 лют 2025
- Talking Back, Talking Black takes us on a fascinating tour of a nuanced and complex language that has moved beyond America’s borders to become a dynamic force for today’s youth culture around the world.
Get the book here: goo.gl/yx34F3
Moderated by Natasha Aarons.
He is one of the people I would love to have as a dinner guest to speak with him for a few hours. The interviewer did a terrific job.
B in B i made a post on another video of him saying something similar. He for sure would make a great dinner guest. :)
The interviewer was a "little in-over-her-head" but she was earnest and unassuming and he was gracious. So it was a great interview.
@@jguerrero447 She did really well, and her "less linguistic knowledge than a linguist" status actually helped her form questions that would occur to the 99% of people who share that level of expertise. McWhorter is one of the best thinkers out there. Smart, honest and has lots of integrity.
BrStFr McWhorter is one of the reasons I went back to Linguistics after diverting into Law for a couple of years. He is one of the linguistics gods I admire.
A few hours wouldn't be enough.
She is a great interviewer . No interruptions to say "I'm smart too" , and she let's her subject develop his theme and explain it .
"I'm smart too" so true of many interviewers
rodanzig I loved her! She’s so pleasant and welcoming. And her questions are poised as an inquiry rather than a challenge. I bet you she could host for speakers of any ideology and be absolutely neutral. Just how it should be if we hope to learn from each other and debate (and disagree) civilly.
I would like to see her interview Jared Taylor .@@DavidEColon
Are you kidding? She's horrible! Not a single question was in response to what he previously said...she just read through a list. He could have read through the list himself...she added nothing by being there. And *_every_* question began with "So...".
J L N she’s an excellent HOST. You’re confusing her with a JOURNALIST. That she is not. She’s not there to pry and challenge unscripted. She’s there to help move the presentation along in a welcoming and enjoyable way. Thumbs up to her on that. IMO
Natasha did a fantastic job here. John is an intellectual juggernaut and her ability to stay on topic, make good transitions, all while not being intimidated is absolutely commendable.
Except for her sibilant "s" made her sound like a hissing snake making this unlissssstenable.
@@lisad2701 I listened. It wasn't "unlistenable."
I like the etymology of the word "juggernaut". en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juggernaut
@@lisad2701 speech impediments are truly difficult to ignore but should never be made fun of…..
@@koelnkorrekt you’re right. But English definition means destructive. This man might be that in the sense of iconoclastic opinion.
I love the way this man thinks.
He is always nuanced in his thoughts.
Yes!! You nailed it. This is the second video I have watched with this guy, and that’s exactly what I love about the way he thinks & speaks, and articulates his thoughts.
Yes! “Nuanced” is exactly the word for his approach to language and culture and race. He demands a lot of flexible thinking from his audience.
This man saved me from despair in 2020. I am forever in debt to Professor John McWhorter!
That knowledge was exceedingly well-dropped
My teachers (mostly white) never corrected the way I spoke. I went my whole life all the way into college never knowing that I spoke black english. Not until by chance I picked up one of John McWhorter's books in the college library.
And you didn't code-switch when talking in a formal situation to a standard English? Or did not knowing there was such a thing as black English mean you only ever used that variety of English? I'm just curious, English is my second language and I've never been in the US, so all the English I know has been slowly and painfully learned and I want to know how it works for native speakers.
Exactly!@rockster10101
And if the “white” teacher had corrected you they most likely would have had their “white” asses handed to the theirselves on a platter and been accused of being a racist.
Blinglish.
Not Gay Bear There definitely was an adoption on the part of some typically well-meaning people not to correct deviations from what we think of as standard English grammar. As you can see, it was not the best approach.
On the other hand, I have taught in schools where admin wanted to address everything. I was cited because a principal heard a student speak in dialect to no one in particular; I guess my ‘grammdar’ was supposed to go off. That approach as well may not have convinced you to practice standard grammar. The “two ways to says it, one way to spell it” approach did have its merits in that regard.
It's not that people think those who use black English in a job interview are "lesser human beings"; it's that we've accepted that when we speak and work in the professional world, we use a "standard" type of dialect, tone, and language. Just like we shouldn't show up in sweats for a major corporate job, I wouldn't dream of speaking to a client the way I speak to my girlfriends (which involves a lot of cursing), but you know I'm putting on my best smile, direct eye contact, and scrubbed-cleaned English that I learned in English class when my company's money is on the line. Like mom would say: You have your church voice and then you have your home voice.
I could listen to Professor McWhorter all day! Measured, interesting, challenging, and thought-provoking.
Very much so. Just like how so many newscasters sound alike. They are speaking standard American English with a Nebraska accent, which sounds the least odd to the most American ears. Just like there is your inside voice and your outside voice. It's when people don't know the difference between the two that things can become awkward.
Not watching the whole thing but very impressed with Ms Natasha's interview skill. Asks the good questions and allows the very bright guest to fully respond. Refreshing these days. Pretty interesting subject as well,, but will take it in pieces. A+
Its not refreshing, its the Standard, stop watching just reactionary compilations. EYPSIN.
Anybody ever notice how well Key and Peele (both biracial) can switch fluidly from one code to the other, during skits? It's part of what makes them so funny.
Yeah, but they also switch to LA Chicano, upper class British, all sorts
Who are Key and Peele?? 😐😐😐😐
@@porkypig2971 Comedians. Type their name into UA-cam and you will get millions of their clips. They are pretty funny
i loved this so much.
he's got such a reasoned, balanced, sensible thought process to arriving at conclusions.
he has that kind of voice you could listen to all day.
I am one of those bricks. In the first 3 minutes of this video, I had that lightbulb moment. I finally get it. Thank you. I am so glad I found this video.
I grew up in Trinidad, and there was the broken English that was spoken in conversation, but for academic pursuits, it was mandatory to communicate in standard English which we studied at school. The same grammar, that is now berated by many was a staple of my core learning. For this I am very thankful. I think the problem with so called black English arises from the fact, that students do not study English, and are expected to some how pick up standard English for use in academic work, and that never materializes.
At home, my parents never tolerated broken English. My father believed that dialect , did not have the breath of expressions that standard English enabled ; in addition it restricted the development of vocabulary and comprehension of more sophisticated text, and above all dialect was an impediment to clear thinking.
It seems like you brought to this discussion your personal experience and did not spend much time actually listening with an open mind to what Dr. McWhorter was proposing. Linguists tend to be relativists, at least as far as language use goes. This is clearly the case for McWhorter, who at the end of the talk straightforwardly states that the elevation of one type of English as the standard is an "abomination." From a linguistic perspective, there are no "broken" forms of any language. The purpose of language is communication and any language form that effectively communicates is as valid as any other.
Your perspective, insofar as I understand it, seems to be more that of an English teacher, or someone who took as law the teachings of their English teacher. That's interesting. I've held tenure as an English professor at both a community college and at a university. (I, in fact, currently hold tenure at a university.) I agree with the linguists that there is no inherent reason why what we call standard English should be considered better than any other form of English. It is a strange notion on its face. There are not better and worse languages and so it follows that because every language has numerous variants within it that those variants are neither better nor worse, neither higher, nor lower. One would need to explain why such a strange notion might be true beyond a simple appeal to authority-- i.e., "This is what I learned in school, therefore this is what is right." That's not much of an argument.
That said, I do think that there are practical reasons for some version of English (or any other language) to be classified as a standard. It makes it easier to conduct business, grade essays, etc. But this classification will always be arbitrary and, in my rather deeply informed opinion, other forms of the language should not be cast as "broken."
I admire John McWhorter so much. What a mind.
And he's considered a sellout in large swathes of the black community
@@jacobjorgenson9285 it's a foreign language to many.
@@jacobjorgenson9285 No, he is not. There is no large swath (I think "swathe" is typically used as a verb now, but I understand that it used to be more commonly used in the form that you are using it) of the Black community that is aware that McWhorter exists.
This was a VERY fascinating conversation!
In what way fascinating? For people who have nothing to do with their time, this is interesting. A total waste of time and very misleading, is what I found.
John was nice enough to correspond with me via email re: his podcast with Glenn Loury. One of the smartest and nicest guys around. Echo that dinner guest request. : )
What a breath of fresh air. Both interviewer and interviewee speak eloquently. In this day and age, when everyone speaks in parasite words...
John's sense of humor is supreme.
This reminds me of how American culture is often very disconnected to how people all over the world typically behave in linguistics. Especially when this talk went into code switching. As an American, this is very enlightening to me.
I have such an intellectual crush on him. When he speaks, it's spell-binding!
I speak like that as well 😉😂
me too
as do i🤣😂🤣😂
amen!
You should hear Coleman Hughes and Sam Harris.
have enjoyed listening to McWhorter
Very interesting topic. Years and years ago, when I was trying to learn Arabic, I worked with a Palestinian woman who told me I spoke like a peasant. LOL I must've been learning Egyptian or standard Arabic. When I was married to an Hispanic man we spoke what we called "Spanglish". I've often said when I need to be more professional I speak a certain way, but in my regular life I throw in a lot of slang. Now I know it's "code switching".
This comment is basically the secret. If you work in customer service sometimes code switching helps calms to calm certain situations.
"if one can hear black english and think it's not junk", well you certainly convinced me, I completely changed my opinion after listening to you
Or maybe he opened you up to an idea that racism in America already taught you didn't exist
African American vernacular English is a dialectical form of English that has a set of rules. If you were to ask the average African-American to explain the grammar or syntax of African American vernacular English they would do just that poor of the job explaining it as a white American would while trying to explain those same aspects of Standard American English... most of us tend to understand the rules of our languages but not well enough to teach or explain those rules in great detail. The issue is that racism in American culture socializes us from a young age to see all of which comes from African American culture as either a sign of there intellectual inferiority, sign of their unwillingness to follow rules (aka disobedience) or a byproduct of hip-hop culture (AKA slang). This socialization builds a wall which blocks most Americans from understanding what language is. As children we are taught how to read, write and articulate in English and that is positioned as us being taught what language is. We learn the prescriptive form of English and that stops us from understanding language in an overall descriptive way.
Great discussion and even greater Q&A, Prof. John McWhorter! Mr. McWhorter's fine sense of humor really shines through!
Mr McWhorter : i love you bro
a real hero in advancing intellegence & diminishing destablizing myths
iam black
and you can't spell
27:37 I'm relieved that McWhorter said we can't fix the usage of Nigga by others. Black people have to let it go. The people who want to reserve the right to be offended by the word regardless of how it is being used is being dishonest and they are out of luck. I'm black.
To me, black speak is a way to identify yourself as part of a tribe, or ingroup,or subculture. See how quickly white kids pick it up when hanging out with black friends. Also see how black people respond when one of their own starts speaking standard English and say "What....are you trying to be white or something??" And sadly, the same response is given if the black person studies hard and tries to excel in school.
Also, unlike other dialects, black English is for blacks. Theres something wrong about other races using black speak. So it pigeonholes blacks and hampers them integrating into mainstream society.
David R Your perception of how Black English vs Standard English is perceived in the black community is as juvenile as the children you discuss. Black people certainly do expect to hear appropriate grammar in appropriate contexts, and will not automatically associate standard grammar with aspiration toward whiteness. And Black English is not like Esperanto, it wasn’t made up exclusively for Black people; it developed among Black people because of their particular history. Historians have pointed to texts that describe white masters who had black nannies as speaking exactly like black people, and Southern American dialects especially absorb some of the grammar and tonality of Black English.
Really though, where did you get these thoughts? The movies?
@BOISE BLACK sure buddy
@BOISE BLACK Are you trying to do a schtick, like Uncle Ruckus or something? Your spelling and grammar are too good to be a far left/right racist, so I'm guessing this is some character you're playing. You really need to learn some humor though, just spewing racism in all caps has little entertainment value.
@@toobnoobify this don't really have anything to do with what your saying it's more to do with the spelling and grammar, and it's association with witchcraft. When schools teach your children to spell using grammar is in reality teaching your children witchcraft. You all know what casting a spell is but not many of you know about the relationship between grammar and grimwar. Grammar and grimwar are the exact same word. A grimwar is a book of spells. Do you see the relationship between spelling and grammar? Or grimwar and spelling?
@V J _"Why were are those anti-discrimination laws passed if there were no need?"_
Yes, racism is bad, but it also isn't 1950 anymore. If you're aware of any current laws that target black people then tell us, because we need to fix that. But you can't name any, because this is the freest place in human history.
The reason people from urban black communities do so poorly in society is not because they are black (that applies to racist arguments from the left and right).
I heard Sleepy John Estes’ song Someday Baby, in which he sings
“Now look here, baby
See what you done done (!)
You made me love you,
Now your man done come..”
I liked all the insights in this video👍🏼
Yeah, but that OK: we loves the blues.
Wow. Never knew linguistics could be so fascinating.
Check out his podcast.
Check out his Great Courses courses (I know that sounds stupid) it's amazing.
His, BESTEST video...EVA !!!
BY FAR !!! TY 🎯🎯🎯
*YOU "DONE" LOST YO' MIND...* LOL 😆😂😆😂😆😂
A lot of people make fun of the way WHITE southern folks speak english, and it's also considered to be "Bad English". So I don't think there's anything racist about someone thinking the same about "Black English".
As European this being such a big deal in context of scholastic achievement is kinda funny to me. The point isn't to feel homey about it and it really doesn't come natural to anyone. Standard language is about being professional, same as your work clothes or uniform are.
I'm Slovenian - we have 8-12 dialect groups with 40, 50-ish dialects. If we go full at-home-spoken dialect, me and someone living 50 km from me, will have serious trouble keeping up more than a basic conversation. So you up your game to the provincial dialect and, if that fails, you keep upping your grammar and phonetics closer and closer to Standard without even thinking about it.
From kindergarten you learn "lepa Slovenščina". That saying "Tršica, k lehk grem lulat?" isn't proper and only "Gospa vzgojiteljica, ali smem na stranišče?" will get you to a bathroom. No-one ever complains about their dialect getting them bat grades. XD
I mean you could put together a Florentine and a Calabrian, then see just how far your standard Italian will get you when they speak in dialect.
Similarly, Germans grow up speaking anything from Schwabian, Silesian to Bavarian, and have to learn proper "Hoch Deutch".
And Brits might be from London, Manchester, Liverpool or wherever and proud, but their professional life, be it school or work, is preferably in "Queen's English".
It's safe to make fun of white southern speech because you're making fun of white people. It's NOT acceptable to make fun of the same type of speech from blacks because you get called "racist".
It's sad because it holds blacks to a lower standard. Every time I hear blacks speak that way it just makes me sad, as though no one in their life thought they could be taught the same basic English that I was taught.
mrkrabappleson
These black leaders are just holding back their own people.
Why can Mexicans, Chinese, immigrate here and in one generation no one can tell where the hail from, but, black people cannot grasp English.
His argument is weak.
White southern speech is considered bad precisely because of its connection to black English. It developed the way it did largely because of southern whites’ interaction with black slaves and overall black culture. The south has always harbored the most black people and it is by far the most influenced by black culture.
@@rhyca4804 Don't know if this is true but I read that it was the opposite, that black english was influenced from southern english and when black people started to move from the south to up north it stuck culturally.
I love it when there are cajuns speaking on television and they show subtitles. And the whole "job interview level" vs regular speaking level occurs in German as well. There is Umgangsprache which has a pronunciation and vocabulary different from formal language. I might speak Umgangsprache with my three cube mates at work, but it is certainly not what I would speak if I were in a board meeting that afternoon.
sifridbassoon smiling at part of your comment, when I was learning german (hoch deutsch) and my husband speaking Schwäbisch with his family I found it very difficult to understand!
Really really informative. Even quite healing for me personally due to my own very traumatic experiences from transitioning from Russian to English starting in the mid 90's, where I was adopted into a linguistically conservative home.
When he said he doesn't believe in standard English and that it is linguistically unsound to impose standard English, I just loved it. Absolutely wonderful to hear this.
If you know more than one language, then you are more intelligent. That's what I've been taught. And it's very true. You can communicate with more people, have access to more places (physically and socially), and have more power.
@@franciscosalanga monolinguals are equally intelligent to their multilingual counterpart. The amount of languages a person knows doesn't determine how smart they are. Indeed, Multilingualism exists cross- Intellectually, meaning there exists at least one monolingual and multilingual person in every Intellectual ability level, from the most Intellectually disabled level to the most Intellectually gifted.
But I appreciate the encouragement.
@@sergeyfox2298 I appreciate your thoughtful response. I'll try to be more precise: speaking about language specifically, knowing more than one signifies that you've done work to learn and understand an entirely new set of grammar and linguistic rules.
I agree, that doesn't mean someone who knows only one language is unintelligent or incapable. But there is a varied mode of thinking and a deeper understanding when you're able to speak in multiple languages.
So, perhaps we can say there is a level of intelligence that should be respected when we come across people who understand multiple languages.
@@franciscosalanga Most people who are Multilingual don't know the technical side of grammar or linguistic rules; generally, that is a learned phenomena not acquired phenomena. In other words, I think you mean to say that those, while not having the technical training in grammar or language rules themselves, yet who acquire the command to utter grammatically normative rules from multiple languages are admirable. Indeed, that's impressive.
However, the problem is that the intelligence level of folks who acquire proficiency in multiple languages, meaning the proficiency to acquire receptive and expressive language fluency, assuming any language disorders don't slow down acquisition by impinging on these language acquisition abilities to acquire multiple languages, exists in every general Intellectual ability class.
And to be clear, when you refer to Intelligence, I'm assuming you're referring to general Intellectual ability. If this is what you refer too, it is specific Intellectual ability that gives rise to rapid language acquisition of multiple languages. Indeed, secondary or tertiary language acquisition or beyond is likely to be manifest by folks with a specific not general Intellectual ability of verbal ability. of course, under this logic, folks of general Intellectual ability will likely acquire multiple languages, but because of their verbal ability NOT because of their general Intellectual ability itself.
From there, One can infer that folks with low general Intellectual ability BUT high specific Intellectual ability in the verbal can rapidly acquire command of multiple languages.
with this mind, you're more clear in your reasoning.
@@franciscosalanga and yes, the increased cultural-social empathy of multilinguals tend to be higher. I've seen that with my friends who can speak more than one language.
A buddy and I were walking down the street one day, chatting, when a "white" voice came from behind us, jumping into our conversation. When we turned to confront this person, the shock on our faces must've been priceless because he (a black man) burst out laughing and said, "That's right, I'm BLACK!" As we continued walking with him, he explained that he'd grown up in Alaska. Subsequent to this, he became part of our social group. We nicknamed him "Eskimo". From time to time, when I hear black people speaking in a very "black" idiom, I think about Eskimo. He was an interesting example of nature vs nurture.
Very insightful. We had someone like that in our office that we said always spoke like the President of the United States, (before Trump). 😐😐😐
I feel that "code Switching" is completely relevant when examined in the sociological context. Actually, as early as 1920 W.E.B Du Bois revealed this as an integral part of the double consciousness that Black people in America feel: A schism between their Black self and their American self. I'm certainly not trying to argue though. John McWhorter has incredible insight and is an excellent teacher.
William Robbins I don’t think he would disagree with you about code-switching. It’s a thing.
Code switching is common in England amongst Englishmen (and women) of different classes even in the same village, let alone different villages, or different shires.
John McWhorter for Secretary of Education! This gentleman defines the linguistic issues with truth and understanding.
I live in the UK and this is not just a black thing its a dialect thing, you can have someone from London, and someone from Newcastle and even though they are technically both speaking English there will be words and phrases that the other has no idea what it means, and would never use. BUT when they are in school they are taught English the correct way.
This guy is remarkably articulate and well-informed.
The adults in the room understand that slang has a place beside standard usage that has nothing to do with the pretense of being a race based and justified language.
Sean L. Eubanks Not sure I’m understanding you, but it sounds like you miss the point. Black English is not slang, it’s a set of alternate grammatical structures. It’s also not “race based,” but a product of culture of a people group.
@@TommyStrategic I'm amused. I bet you also believe what you've been told about it being impossible for "blacks" to be racist.
Starting with a language, then adapting it to fit a subculture creates slang, even if it's computer geek tech talk.
Tech geeks understand that speaking in TLA's too those outside their field is not useful.
Ebonics is slang, grown from poor education to fit a subculture, then justified as something else by racists.
Sean L. Eubanks You are wrong on all counts. Tech geeks do in fact have issues at times using (not slang but) jargon with outsiders. Sales people, athletes, law enforcement: most common professions have some bleeding between their normal conversational vocabulary and the words they use mostly for work.
What looks like your take on the origin of Ebonics (aka Black English, or African American Vernacular English) doesn’t line up with what linguists and historians are telling us about its development. It is not a slang of a people that refused to do any better (/s); instead, it’s a fairly recent product of the organic development of a language spoken by people from various African ethnicities who sometimes managed to pass on the syntax of their original languages while using mostly English words and grammar, all during a time English itself is going through a simplification process with respect to its grammar.
For Black people, due to the dominant culture’s history of segregating them, Black culture is their actual culture, not a subculture. In that culture, there are ways of speaking that are standard for them and not casual; there is also casual slang. A Black teacher may chastise a student in the Black vernacular, but it would definitely not be slang; preachers may use Black English phrases in their pulpits, but that also would not be slang.
Slang is typical of what one hears in hiphop, which, to your point, is a subculture that draws from a larger, more wholistic Black culture. If you heard Ebonics and associated it primarily with hiphop, then you are probably not familiar with the larger, broader, day-to-day culture of Black Americans. In fact, to my mind, you seem really invested that the existence of Black English is /in se/ proof of Black inferiority, while the reality is, how most people speak is less about their innate intelligence and more about the situation they were raised in. Black people were raise by people who were raised by people who were raised by enslaved people who were not afforded the benefit of English lessons when they were forcibly brought to this country and treated like commodities (though some were extremely lucky and were able access some education), so there’s that.
Through the generations, Black English has become more like Standard American English in some ways; ironically, the proposed Ebonics curriculum may have sped up that process, but people (white and black) heard that something black was being taught in mostly black schools to black students, and freaked out.
@@TommyStrategic I read your post that strongly suggests that today's reality is the inevitable result of slavery and had a question that I hesitate to pose because of today's artificial and politically enforced racial tensions. I'm aware that Twitter and UA-cam are full of race and rage baiting. I do not participate in trolling of any kind.
However, I am old enough to remember our real history that has today been change by misinformation and propaganda. I feel compelled to suggest an alternative view, as this subject falls into one of my interestsand I am well enough to participate in life again.
I honestly wonder why the same generational dysfunction you espouse would not apply to the Irish Americans today? Irish immigrants of the same era as slavery overwhelmingly spoke only Gaelic, were dirt poor and uneducated, stood irrevocably apart with an unhideable accent after learning English that marked them as 3rd class citizens, were forced to either become indentured servants of 14+ years or starve, were beaten and raped with impunity and were persecuted and incarcerated by the British back home and by every other culture in America. Yet they both thrived and assimilated through sheer obstinancy, perhaps. Studying their writings of that period is fascinating and it has been too long ago for me to form an acceptable parallel to explain the causess for the different outcome
However, welfare could be at it's root..
Perhaps a total immersion in an ironclad and tragic historical claim to victimhood, however valid, does a great disservice to a people in later generations because it glues you to that point of pain and offers no hope of future redemption from that pain.
Just so you know, I'm aware this won't be welcome criticism, and you would be correct to say I'm no expert.
Yet, I can't help dreaming of a better outcome. As the defacto cultural leaders, I wonder about the incredible impact if rappers could encourage, in their unique way, some more positive life roles instead of drugs, aggression, narcissism and foul language.
Could the black community outdo the Asians if they focused on education for their children, got married and raised them as a family unit that sacrificed their own desires to make a better life for their kids as the Asians do? Without a doubt.
The black families in my youth were all about faith, respect and discipline. You did not sass your mom and only whispered around your dad. His word was law. Period.
I grew up during desegregation and witnessed things were getting better as race became less important, including mixed marriage becoming acceptable for the first time. Then I became disabled for 25 years, was finally diagnosed and healed, but woke up to find my country in chaos and every truth was turned on it's head.
News was infected with a pernicious political narrative and education had been hijacked by radical marxist feminists intent on destroying the family unit in order to destroy America.
They started with your people and were wildly successful in decimating the black population with easily accessible Planned Parenthood facilities in the most vulnerable black communities - to the tune of an equal amount of black babies aborted to black babies born every year. The black community would have realistically grown to 26% of America's population by now,, nearly a third of the population. I burn when I think of it. I see it as planned extermination because that was PP' founder, Margaret Sanger's, entire purpose when she proposed it. It is an evil practice with an evil purpose .
I'm no white knight. I expect no reply. I enjoyed this interview post, read your interesting input, and just wanted to offer another perspective that wasn't politically correct emotional pandering.
Corry Burton Sold by blacks to whom? Freed by whites from whom? Your oversimplification if what was a very complex system of trade doesn’t make for reasonable, civil, or informed discussion. Enjoy your day!
Nobody speaks the way they normally do at a job interview. I grew up aware of my mother's "phone voice." I'm now aware of my own.
Part of the reason people have professional, interview, phone and other ways of speaking is that you need to be able to communicate with as close to 100% of people as possible, thereby necessitating dropping the X% of dialectal speech that that isn't common. You use more precise, often more wordy speech to convey accurately, rather than being able to use dialectal shortcuts to convey the same thing more quickly, because you can't assume the other person understands your way of speaking.
"Standard English" is really just a linguistic razor.
As someone who was on the other side of this debate (was much younger, dumber and trusting of the news), I really appreciate this video. The media really needs to be put in check!!!!! Had this whole story been presented to us like this back in the day, I would bet money that most people's outlook of the whole ebonics thing would be positive. This is the kind of out the box schooling that is needed these days. It was sold to us by the media as a "replacement" to learning English not as a tool to help people who predominantly speak 1 form of english to learn the form everyone else is learning in school.
Exactly. I'm glad that you approached this discussion with an open mind. McWhorter is not exactly a leftist bent on restructuring American society, something that his commentary also makes clear. Yet he respects and defends what the Oakland school board and the linguists from whom they drew their ideas were trying to do, even as he also notes where their point of view diverges from his.
Their intentions were good and their reasoning was sound. Because there are so many uncontrollable variables in any human situation, that isn't always enough to ensure that one's idea will work in a real world situation. Nothing can ensure that. But those educators were doing good work and were grossly maligned.
John is on point here. He approaches the conflicts and issues of Black English vis a vis "Standard English" objectively and without a pollyanna like thought that society will simply drop all stigmitization of it, Great anecdotes as well,
Done gave a great talk. Enjoyed it very much.
Mourning Star ⁉️
Mourning Star You are trying to demean her by code switching.
Let me explain. You referred to what you perceive as leftist, as "cuckboy". That is alternative right code speak.
Now in this comment thread, You switched your language, to address Ayisha. You did not use ad hominem, albeit it was demeaning none the less.
Further, to add insult upon injury, you added a tagline, "I swear, kids these days."
To affirm your insult, and affirm your dominance.
See how linguistics works?
So, I can affirm, through what this man has spoken on, you are a "right winger", and go as far to say alternative right.
You also perceive yourself as such AND perceive yourself as better.
It also tells me, you yourself, have been infected by "groupthink".
Also, through your two uses of ad hominem, joking or not, it says that you merely possess standard English to eloquate your view.
I would describe the alt right as "angry culture."
Now, to use code speak slang:
HAVE SEVERAL SEATS DOWN!
Mourning Star point made...I knew you'd get angry.
Mourning Star lol...point made...TWICE!
...all up in here.
I could listen to the professor describing the layout of his local supermarket and it would probably sound interesting and pleasing to the ears. Charming, engaged, and insightful interviewer.
I moved from the South to the PNW. I am white and don't have a super strong accent but I do say "up, done, and had sometimes" "me and my brother / y'all"...mush my words, etc. These ppl are so "tolerant" except towards other cultures in THEIR OWN COUNTRY. I won't ever say "My sister and I" but I will write it,duh.
I have to disagree with McWhorter on the "you can't speak that way at a job interview" comment. He says he bridles at the phrase, and counters with "no one said they wanted to." But they do. Many, many young black Americans have no idea that they are revealing a lack of education during a job interview, or other professional interactions, and speak EXACTLY that way. How could they do otherwise?
The problem is not that Black American language exists, all languages in all countries have always developed dialects. That happens. The problem is that Americans do not have a proper English language that they are trained to use in certain situations. We need a MUCH better education system that promotes a professional and useful English that can be added to the toolbox of all American children. NOT train them that any old way of comfortably chatting with friends is the only method we can use.
Robin D. G. Kelley stated that “ [Racism] is not about how you look, it is about how people assign meaning to how you look.”
That's PREJUDICE! NOT, racism. Racism is the conscious decision to OPPRESS, OR DISCRIMINATE based on the group you assign them to. The average person will give each individual the chance to show who they are in ANY situation that matters. Its PERFECTLY NORMAL AND ACCEPTABLE, to make shorthand assumptions about people, that are common to the group they belong to. I made a video about this a few months ago. ua-cam.com/video/e8dEqGWSXyE/v-deo.html
Thank God,there are still some smart people in America!
My Appalachian roots resonated with just about everything that Professor McWhorter said!
Yes. I grew up in S. C. with a regional accent and had northern teachers in a school that was predominantly of northern origin. I experienced cultural hegemony, though certainly on a weaker level than than Black folks experience it. Made me sympathetic to the Ebonics idea back in the nineties. To this day, I unconsciously (and sometimes consciously) have a varied accent and dialect depending on context. But I think having home talk and academic talk enriches our language and broadens our ability to express ourselves.
Very much
My mom was born in Anderson SC and I was born in Greenville SC raised in Fort Walton Beach Florida. She spoke with a thick Southern accent. My ex's father thought Southern folk were illiterate because of how they spoke. I don't speak with a thick Southern accent due ti my education and I learned to speak proper English. My wife is Jamaican and speaks fluent standard English or "the Queen's English" as she says. Her parents didn't allow them to speak Patuah (not sure if this is the correct spelling). It has nothing to do with racism. People looked down on me because I am Southern not because I'm white. White people don't look down on black people because they are using Ebonics because we all pick up slang from peers. But if I have a business where my income depends upon how customers perceive what my business is like by how the employee's speak and communicate and the customer's can't understand my employee because they don't speak proper English then that's a problem and I would lose customers.
Loved this!! I learned a lot of cool things about black culture that I find fascinating. I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area with a variety of friends from all sorts of cultures. Many of my friends growing up were black and I noticed how they could turn off/on their black English when at school (in class) vs around friends and at lunch. Really good talk.
If I only were able to hear John McWhorter speak and not see him, I would say he is part of the .5% he referred to.
I was thinking the same for many of the young black men who asked questions - but they are speaking in a formal (and multiracial) setting, plus they're all members of the economic elite.
Really? I would definitely assume he's black just from listening.
When other countries learn English, it is Standard English. Few would understand my small culturally based dialect. In my opinion, Standard English assists many understand each other.
Having Americans speak a remarkably consistent form of English is unique in the world and worth preserving. Someone from Tampa sounds just like someone from Seattle as long as they are speaking standard English.
I know first hand that slang from Seattle is significantly different than that of Tampa, I worked in a predominantly black area of Seattle and I understood everyone 99.9% of the time without issue, there was a learning curve but I figured it out pretty quick. I worked with a guy who got the amazingly creative nickname of Tampa and at first I could barely understand him and the customers were having a hard time too. He had to revert to standard English to do his job.
He adapted in just a few days and he was speaking the same version of English as everyone else which was impressive because it happened so quickly and its not like there is a dictionary, he just soaked it up.
Alaska Natives in off-road villages also have a distinct dialect that may differ from village to village, but is quite similarly variant from standard English.
But most of all English speakers speak one way at work/school/church and another way when we're hanging out with friends who are from the same sub-culture.
I agree with this. I guess we could stay that standard English is more for the corporate world but every dialect is for real-life communication with your "sub-culture" as you eloquently put it.
I experienced it myself teaching children in an international context. School is very difficult for many children, Latino-American children whose parents spoke dialect at home, have enormous difficulties with Spanish language, it affects the development of vocabulary that will reflect in the school performance if neglected.
Seeing this 2/18/2020. Very good discussion, thank you both. I learned much, understand better. Regarding the "N" word... What understanding you applied to how the word is used contemporarily. It still makes me bristle, too, but I understand more. I'm Native American, and find the discussion fascinating. Generally, languages are fascinating. I have friends from Scotland....when they "go brogue", who can tanslate !! Thanks. Excellent references to historical significance influencing the language.!
Hey! Wot ya sayin? I'm a jock nowt wrang wi hoo ispeek pal! lol x
I remember this so well. Out of hundreds of friends of mine, one other friend and I were on the same understanding of what John met. This topic need to be brought back for discussion.
Wow. This was absolutely fascinating!
You can tell a lot about anyone from the way they talk, not just the color of their skin. You can tell their approximate age, the gender, sometimes maybe their sexual orientation, what part of the world they are from, what part of North America they are from, how smart they are, and so much more. Our speech reveals who we are. It's not just about black and white.
Of course. McWhorter would agree with you. One has every right to state the obvious, but it isn't particularly productive.
I really like McWhorter because he never says he's trying to be a leader. He's a linguist and only talks about linguistics.
Oh, he talks about way more than just linguistics. He's even taught classes outside of linguistics. He does commentary on culture, history, black issues and more. Research him and you'll find he goes beyond linguistics, but no doubt linguistics are his main thing.
The "N" word is not only used as to refer to a buddy...it is very generic. You will also hear the word when they are referring to people they want to fight enemies etc. The "buddy" idea is an excuse so that other groups don't use it negatively.
It's closer to "dude" than anything, but it's steeped in in group/out group culture too.
"Angry Grammar"
Whelp, I just found my next band name.
cultural appropriation is a good thing .. it's NOT taking away from one group .. it's COPYING behavior/values which WORK.
That's the most efficient way of progress..
condeming "cultural appropriation" is the same as forbidding people to use the internet because they didn't invent it
A lot of the language being used to condemn racism in the US is imprecise, in my opinion. A white boy learning Filipino culture, learning to speak Tagalog, how to cook kilawen, and outwardly wearing a Moro Warrior shirt, shouldn't be condemned as culturally appropriating something. On a lot of levels, he's respecting Filipino culture in a way that some US born Filipinos haven't done. But, in some eyes, that white boy is culturally appropriating.
I use that example because I'm partly Filipino, haven't learned how to speak the language. By that, I should be offended if I take such a broad POV. But I don't.
On the other hand, if that is indeed cultural appropriation, then there's a positive side to it that makes this conversation more nuanced. Cultural appropriation in itself isn't, then, negative. There has to be other things qualifying it.
6:25 on his point about knowing 99.5% of the time that you’re talking to a black person on the phone, ironically, I first heard John’s voice in another video of him asking Jordan Peterson a question from the audience, out of view, and I felt CONVINCED it a slightly overweight white guy
He's written about this before and how he "sounds like a white person."
He says in another venue, "I think I sound like a middle aged white insurance salesman." :)
I came here to see what he looks like because I just finished listening to a series of lectures by him on Audible. And he talks a lot about black English and I was wondering why he was so interested when he sounded white to me. Then when I saw him I thought maybe it's because I'm not from the US that I can't recognize the "black" in the way he sounds. Good to know I'm not the only one.
@@latronqui he would be the .5% mentioned in his own statistic
But he doesn't sound white. He sounds Black. All y'all heard was your prejudices. Talking white is talking proper.
I love even the sound of McWhorter’s voice.
I feel LIED to!!!! I thought they wanted to teach ebonics in place of proper english. Damn the media
There is no such thing as "proper English."
She is a great interviewer. With a beautiful smile!
This is hilarious: I can assure you that 99.99999% of people annoyed with “black speech” are not thinking: “boy, they use the pluperfect too much.” Haha. Only John would think that. I love it.
This was a wonderfully balanced talk: the presentation, the conversation, the participation.
Wow! Incredible talk. Thank you for sharing.
Both are fantastic at getting their points across in a eloquent manner. I enjoyed their conversation from beginning to end.
Yes, indeed! You’re also an expert in languages like Spanish too, yes?
words .. like "the n-word" only have as much power as we are willing to grant to em ..
So American English is way more interesting than I was expecting. Awesome interview
I’m trying to teach Siri to speak in Ebonics.
And yet this gentleman talks about how we need to be more open to other dialects, Ebonics etc, with perfect spoken English. That irony is not lost on me.
There is no irony. Have you listened to his podcast? He changes how he speaks, just as many of us do. I mix languages when speaking to family or friends who are from my same group, but with other friends I don't. I have Asian friends who said h between Mandarin and English or Korean and English. It is norm
As a writer I am careful to use proper English except in dialogue where I differentiate my characters with spoken variations. This can get quite creative, as you just about have to read it aloud to understand it. As a southerner I've heard people cram whole sentences into one word. Example: a two syllable word that sounds like "dogbauw" is a reduction of the sentence "What are you talking about?"
A well known example from (white) Philly dialect is "Jeet?" for "Did you eat?" - meaning, "Have you eaten?"
Good god. He absolutely CRUSHED Broad City. I don't know if he even meant it to come off that way but, damn.
I disagree with John McWhorter about people knowing 99% of the time whether someone is black simply by talking to them on the phone. There are definitely cases where that is true but it is not 99% of the time. I always get mistaken as NOT black when I am on the phone. I also wouldn't think Mr. McWhorter was black if I just heard him speak on the phone. Nonetheless, I get his point. I just think it is more like 60% - 70% of black people that speak in a way that is "distinctly black".
DW Ethiopia He’s not saying that every black person is interpreted as being black in 99% of their phone conversations; he’s saying that a person can be identified as black through the phone 99% of the time. You could simply be within that 500k people exception.
(I’m not speaking as to whether the 99% figure is true, but honestly I wouldn’t be surprised. There definitely is some type of blackness that permeates black people’s speech even when they’re going out of their way to speak “properly” and enunciate.)
@@rhyca4804 I understood what he was saying. And I still stand by my point. People don't know you are black 99% of the time if they don't know who you are personally. For some black people that may be true but I seriously doubt its as common as he makes it seem. I know a lot of black people that qualify as an exception to his generalization.
@@rhyca4804 A lot of the identification process has to do with what the conversation is about. 9 times out of 10 if you talk about your life, culture, or personal stuff then you can identify someone as black because a big part of our identity in America is defined by our race. Hope that makes since.
I was in London and was surprised to hear a black person speaking with an English accent.
I think one thing that was covered incorrectly here is why “standard” English is a thing. It’s not some arbitrary thing. “Standard” English is really just our name for the language that the world’s most powerful and wealthy people use. In order to enjoy the benefits of those powerful and wealthy people, you must speak their language. That’s why almost any luxury hotel in the world will have front desk staff that speak their best approximation of “standard” English. That’s also why it’s also expected to use “standard” English in a job interview of professional setting. It’s the language of power and money. It’s the language that opens doors.
I know many white guys who have close black friends who will call that friend "my nigga" as a term of endearment. Though it is common to only be used in a more intimate setting and not in public, and certainly not in front of other black people. There is a phonemic distinction between what is called the "hard r" and "soft r" the former being offensive, and the latter meaning "buddy". I wouldn't be surprised to someday hear "nigga" be used commonly among all people regardless of their skin color. I for one am thankful for the integration of black culture into mainstream US/Western culture - I see it as a sign of progress.
Hillbilly talk should be taught as a legitimate altenate
My mom is Scottish, she grew up dirt poor in Scotland surrounded by crime, slang,and drugs. The council housing (projects) in Scotland were just as bad as in America, no work, terrible schools, crime, and a culture that embraced all of those things as points of individuality and pride not problems.
My mother and aunt were not allowed to speak Scottish slang at home or at school, my grandfather said "its broadcasting low class and will hold you back" he was 100% right in a predominantly white country as Scotland in the 1960's 1970's, he is still correct to this day.
They were ridiculed and bullied by all the kids who did speak slang, but both my mom and my aunt left Scotland and became successful, my aunt is a Doctor in Canada and my mom worked for an Aerospace company for years.
England has local dialects that are essentially unintelligible to normal English speakers, you can go 15 miles and run into staggeringly different accents.
I remember "talking" to my relatives that still lived in Scotland growing up, there were two categories, my successful relatives who had upper class British accents and the relatives that I could not understand who lived in the same housing projects that my mother grew up in.
I honestly thought Scottish was a different language until I was about 8 and asked "why wont they speak English"
@Omari Orou You are right everyone uses some slang words that has nothing to do with where you live or what "class" you are. That being said there is a strong correlation between slang ridden dialects that are unintelligible to people not from your area (which was my point) and generational poverty which also correlates to living in crime and drug ridden areas. This isn't news to anyone.
Damn linguists and their smarts 😍
Great discussion
Ha!! I had no idea that "Ebonics" was Ebony + phonics.
Mind blown!!!
@BOISE BLACK I think you're a white dude trying to make black people look bad to white people reading this. If you are really black, then you're not doing black people any favors with your racist bullshit.
Wow. Sad.
The reason why slang is slang is because it's spoken by unlearned people who grow up in the streets without books, with parents who don't care about their children's education, culturally fathers are drunkards and absent, they form gangs instead of family structures, mothers struggle to set food on the table and don't have time to instill values in their children. If you've ever seen the film Oliver Twist you'll see what I'm talking about and there's no race issue there because it's white kids speaking slang - ie English with bad grammar and pronunciation. People who speak slang hardly ever read books let alone write them, so slang is an undocumented way of expression.
I really feel that when Dave Chappelle does a white person impersonation he is using this guy as his reference.
that's almost exactly what i thought the first time i heard him speaking
You ain’t know that......
All over the world, societies have a prestige or formal version of a language, and common or vernacular versions of that language. In Germany, there's High German and other dialects. In the Middle East, there's formal Arabic and other dialects. In England, there's the received pronunciation and other dialects. And here in the US, there's standard American English, and then there are regional and cultural dialects, including black English, Appalachian English, and so on. In a descriptive view of language, these other dialects are just less prestigious than the formal, national dialect.
4:29 " ...a Kente Cloth wearing poverty pimp " - I wonder who that reminds us of these days in mid 2020. hmm .... ;)
Marie Kirby do you mean Nancy?
I quite enjoy this professor's talks in a variety of topics. That said, his comment about not liking or desiring a standardized English, confounds me. Standardization helps people to communicate more effectively with one another. Standardizing something is a good thing. Anyone ever having remodeled a home prior to industry standards in building practices knows exactly what I mean.
17:45 but I think other races do that too. Everyone becomes proper (or “formal” like he said I think that’s a better word for it) during a job interview if they’re interested in the job.
Well, as he said later on, American English is very unique in that it is relatively homogenous. So the few dialects that really stand out (like black english or the hardcore southern accents) and "force" people to switch between standard english and their dialect lead to this idea that it is somehow racist because black. But go anywhere else in the world and you find that it is completely normal to not only switch your dialect on and of, but to have it on a kind of gradient of intensity. Just take the UK dialects of the south coast of England and the northcost of Scotland. If people were not able to switch off/gradiate their accents, they could not talk to each other.
As in the UK, here in Germany everybody has to switch and gradiate all the time (not only in job interviews) when they talk with people from all over the place because the dialects are SO different that they become incomprehensible, the more people lean into them.
A white person cannot got into a job interview and say, "I seen them fliers you posted and came to apply". That may have been the non-standard English spoken in their home, but since dtandard English is taught in the schools along with standard math snd standard science, we're expected to know it. It is also not kept a dark secret as it once might have been when we were geographically distant or so socially stratified that the working classes never heard standard English being spoken. Reasonably decent English is used on television and can be learned from example.
Before this video, I felt that some black people speaking Ebonics were “verbally lazy” but after this video, it’s just a different way of the many ways to speak English. I was wrong and now I stand corrected
ZoSo221 damn thats a really good point
It really weirds me out how dialectal differences freak out the Anglosphere. Go to Switzerland or Norway, *massive* dialect differences within the same languages and standard written languages that are significantly different from the spoken languages (to the extent that in Norway, no one actually speaks standard Norwegian Bokmål/Nynorsk). There are dialects of Norwegian that are mutually unintelligible. Yet we still usually talk our own dialects in pretty much every circumstance. Switching to a different dialect is considered weird in most contexts, beyond making an effort to be understandable where necessary (see previous point about mutually unintelligible dialects). But there is little or no stigma around dialect, in fact we celebrate them. So why the freakout? It's just really weird to me...
Indeed, what is all this fuss when it comes to dialects? I've yet to study a language that is generally spoken in its standardized written form.
@SantaBJ Whatever, Bergen Norwegian is still ridiculous. :P At least that's what my Norwegian aunts (of Westerålen and Oslø) thought.
To put it plainly: That is utter rubbish.
Take your pick. The idea that the acceptance and encouragement of all language systems and usage as equal is something that should be opposed is a) a misframing of the issue, b) dumb, and c) rubbish. The idea that people don't speak grammatically correct language generally is idiotic; scripture is not the same as language, and grammar is descriptive and not prescriptive. The idea that not understanding "proper" grammar makes one stupid is an indictment of a massive proportion of the Earth's population, and suggests that somehow one can raise one's intelligence (as opposed to merely one's knowledge) by learning a set of arbitrary rules of formal language. And that the definition of vernacular is someone predicated on proper language use is just plain rubbish. Just check the dictionary, it has multiple definitions for the word and none of them reference formality or propriety.
So, in short and plain English: Every part of what you said is utter rubbish.
SantaBJ Nope. Completely missed the gist of my comments...prob my fault as I typed that hurriedly in response to yours. Your use of the term Angloshere is loaded...and you know it. I responded viscerally,...maybe not wise, but who cares? If I described AA vernacular as an aspect of the 'Afrosphere', imagine how you would react. These terms are divisive...and wholly unwise. Fuck identity politics.
What I said re: stupidity was geared toward not knowing the diff btwn formal and vernacular language. They aren't equal..nor should they be. Who would disavow this? And why, exactly? The comments about raising intelligence, et al...man, talk about rubbish...that's all you. I never said, much less intimated, any of that. Sounds to me like you have some presuppositions that you may want to reconsider, since you are dismissive of any view other than your own.
This man has the intelligence to inspire more brown people to stand up to Logic. Logic and critical thinking NEEDS to be taught at home and in ALL schools.
Logic and Critical Thinking.
Ebonics, Spanish, Chinese- it's all very nice, but Standard American English is the national language here in the USA, and the better you speak it the farther you will go. Teaching black youth that Ebonics is just as legitimate as SAE does them a disservice. A young black man would do just as poorly as a comparative white man speaking Ebonics at a job interview. It's not racism.
So Cal Bee Guy couldn’t agree with you more. No matter how they try to spin it that talking black is just as acceptable as proper English just try speaking ghetto ebonics in a job interview and see the results you get, especially if it happens to be for a white collar job.
@Okiepita50 T-town @So Cal Bee Guy Interesting that people hear “Black English” and think “ghetto.” And what is the deal with interviews and jobs? Why do people hear “Black people speak differently (in different contexts)” and think, essentially, “Well, there go their chances for a job.” (That is a tacit assertion, by the way, across the board, that the managers of black people, as a rule, will be white people. Sit with that for a minute, and think about what you’re making clear about blacks people’s position in this country.)
The point of McWhorter’s book is to point out features of what is already a recognized dialect: it is linguistically legitimate. Chances are, any black person you know in real life speaks Standard English at work and used Black English conventions (to some degree, if they have a black family) at home. And up to this point you were none the wiser. Sounds like somebody needs a big-kid dose of #getoverit.
@@TommyStrategic Some people can switch from Ebonics to SAE easily, and have good command of SAE, just as another person may speak Spanish and SAE. But too many youth cannot, and they go through life assuming that racism is the culprit for missed opportunities. Since Ebonics is understood by people who don't speak it, there is little motive for the Ebonics speaker to learn SAE well. Anyone who doesn't speak SAE well comes across as "ghetto" no matter how legitimate their dialect is, that's just a fact.
So Cal Bee Guy (1) There are many ‘non-ghetto’ varieties of English that are quite different from SAE. (2) No, it’s quite clear that most non-speakers would miss the various subtleties of (read: not understand) African American Vernacular English; that’s why the guy wrote a book about it. (3) Racism caused disparate neighborhood funding, which caused disparate education funding, which lowers a child’s opportunity to become proficient at Standard American English. Blaming racism for missed opportunities, while not always immediately applicable, is not inaccurate as a high-level diagnosis of not just missed, but unheard-of opportunities.
If this is causing you so much sincere hand-wringing, be comforted in knowing that people who don’t speak in standard dialect get jobs all the time, including non-black people. So there’s that.
@@TommyStrategic I am only making the point that if you speak the national language of the country you're living in well, then things will be better for you. There is nothing wrong with other languages and dialects, I have a lot of appreciation for them. But if you teach the youth that their dialect is super special and just as legitimate as SAE in the USA to the point where they don't see the importance of speaking the national language well, then you are doing them a disservice.
I'm from the south and the word "fixin'" is something that is used a lot.
When I first heard McWhorter (Aspen, with Peterson) I assumed he was an old white guy. Contrary to his observation he does not sound black.
I hear Philadelphian when I listen to him.
Education changes everything. He is a professor at Columbia University
Education changes everything. He is a professor at Columbia University
He did 99.5% can tell the difference. He's the .5% who you cannot tell the difference.
John, thank you. You are refreshingly intelligent.